Karen Black a scientology critic ?!

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Tilman Hausherr

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Nov 27, 2005, 2:53:54 PM11/27/05
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http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/PKG6UFSHSV1.DTL&type=performance
...

Born Karen Blanche Ziegler, Black, 63, made her name in such seminal
1960s and '70s films as "Easy Rider" and "Five Easy Pieces" (which
nabbed her an Oscar nomination for best supporting actress). Sometime in
the midst of her career, however, the off-kilter beauty became anointed
as a cult actress thanks, in part, to the stream of art-house and horror
flicks that dot her resume like so many droplets of fake blood. A
onetime Scientologist who later became an outspoken critic of the
religion, her cult-leader status was sanctified when a goth band adopted
the cheeky name the Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black.

...

====

I've never heard that she is an "outspoken critic" of scientology.

--
Tilman Hausherr "Enturbulation Spice"
http://www.xenu.de

Scientollywood: http://www.scientollywood.org

Skipper

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Nov 27, 2005, 3:25:10 PM11/27/05
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In article <ck3ko1tllo5gisuif...@4ax.com>, Tilman
Hausherr <tilman...@snafu.de> wrote:

>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/PKG6UFSHSV1.DTL&type=p


> erformance
> ...
>
> Born Karen Blanche Ziegler, Black, 63, made her name in such seminal
> 1960s and '70s films as "Easy Rider" and "Five Easy Pieces" (which
> nabbed her an Oscar nomination for best supporting actress). Sometime in
> the midst of her career, however, the off-kilter beauty became anointed
> as a cult actress thanks, in part, to the stream of art-house and horror
> flicks that dot her resume like so many droplets of fake blood. A
> onetime Scientologist who later became an outspoken critic of the
> religion, her cult-leader status was sanctified when a goth band adopted
> the cheeky name the Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black.
>
> ...
>
> ====
>
> I've never heard that she is an "outspoken critic" of scientology.

That would be pretty tough given the connections. If you Whois
KarenBlack.com the administrator is Stephen Eckleberry, long-time
boyfriend (maybe they're married?) who is Renee Duke's son. Renee was
personally recruited into Dianetic$ by Humbug himself on a college
campus. Last thing I heard about her was that she was being heavily
mistreated as an auditor by the current regime. (So what else is new,
veterans getting trounced on?)

So maybe Renee got socially beat up and Karen and Stephen said "enough
of this crap" and left.

Karen's actually a pretty cool person, albeit kooky, and is outspoken
enough she'd do whatever the hell she wanted to anyway. If she's wised
up and left the cult, God bless her. The last thing I heard about her,
she was trying to get Lee Purcell a date with a friend of mine.

Magoo

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Nov 27, 2005, 3:42:46 PM11/27/05
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"Tilman Hausherr" <tilman...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:ck3ko1tllo5gisuif...@4ax.com...

> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/PKG6UFSHSV1.DTL&type=performance
> ...
>
> Born Karen Blanche Ziegler, Black, 63, made her name in such seminal
> 1960s and '70s films as "Easy Rider" and "Five Easy Pieces" (which
> nabbed her an Oscar nomination for best supporting actress). Sometime in
> the midst of her career, however, the off-kilter beauty became anointed
> as a cult actress thanks, in part, to the stream of art-house and horror
> flicks that dot her resume like so many droplets of fake blood. A
> onetime Scientologist who later became an outspoken critic of the
> religion, her cult-leader status was sanctified when a goth band adopted
> the cheeky name the Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black.
>
> ...
>
> ====
>
> I've never heard that she is an "outspoken critic" of scientology.

Me neither. She's married to one of Rene Duke's 6 sons,
and last I heard, ALL are still in Scientology.

Too bad, as they're a really nice family.

Tory/Magoo~~

Dilbert Perkins

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Nov 27, 2005, 4:20:31 PM11/27/05
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About 5(?) years ago had a conversation with Karen Black, and at the
time I didn't know she was (or once was) a Scientologist. Well, for some
reason, the subject of Scientology came up, and if I remember correctly,
I started it. I had a number of things to say about disconnection, abuse
of the Sea Org, etc. She never once disagreed with me -- she just nodded
her head at what I had to say and smiled. If she was still a
Scientologist then, she never defended it, nor did she disagree with
what I was saying. She choose to keep silent on the issue.

Whatever

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Nov 27, 2005, 5:36:21 PM11/27/05
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Tory posted:

> Me neither. She's married to one of Rene Duke's 6 sons, and last I heard, ALL are still in Scientology.

Be watching for a retraction to be printed in the SF Gate. The Scieno
PR hacks aren't going to let this misinformation ride without a
response. Karen Black has never left Scientology though there's good
reason they don't use her "celebrity" for PR reasons: her acting sucks
and the majority of her B-movies were major suck jobs, too.

Black has been married to Stephen Eckleberry since 1987 (are you sure
he's the son of Rene Duke?) She has a son from her first marriage who
was originally cast in the role of Bud Bundy in "Married with Children"
but dropped because producers didn't think he fit the role. His
TV/movie career dwindled after that.

> Too bad, as they're a really nice family.

Many families in Scientology are. Tragic.

Skipper

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Nov 27, 2005, 6:04:43 PM11/27/05
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In article <1133130981.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Whatever <bobblehea...@myway.com> wrote:

He's Renee's son and they are still married. I sent him a copy of the
post and he replied that his mother never met the bloated blubbering
bastard, but then she told me directly long ago that she did meet him
on her college campus and he gave her a copy of his "Original Bullshit"
(oh wait, is bullshit the right word?) while hitting on her. Sounds
just like him. But then hyperbole has always been part and parcel with
$cientologists includings "Oatees."

Ball of Fluff

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Nov 27, 2005, 6:28:10 PM11/27/05
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Whatever wrote:
> Tory posted:
>
> > Me neither. She's married to one of Rene Duke's 6 sons, and last I heard, ALL are still in Scientology.
>
> Be watching for a retraction to be printed in the SF Gate. The Scieno
> PR hacks aren't going to let this misinformation ride without a
> response. Karen Black has never left Scientology though there's good
> reason they don't use her "celebrity" for PR reasons: her acting sucks
> and the majority of her B-movies were major suck jobs, too.

I saw her do some rather nice work in a couple films.

Not one of my favorite actresses, but seemed better than some, anyway.

>
> Black has been married to Stephen Eckleberry since 1987 (are you sure
> he's the son of Rene Duke?) She has a son from her first marriage who
> was originally cast in the role of Bud Bundy in "Married with Children"
> but dropped because producers didn't think he fit the role. His
> TV/movie career dwindled after that.
>
> > Too bad, as they're a really nice family.
>
> Many families in Scientology are. Tragic.

Tragic??

Hmmmmm....

Thing is, celebs get CofS-lite, so to speak. They don't get most of the
bullshit non celeb public get and they sure don't get the bullshit
staff go through.

They have the money to pay those astronomical fees, they basically get
to just get their courses and auditing without, as I say, a lot of the
crap that others go through. They do ok. It's not tragic for them at
all.

However, my ideal would be for celebs in CofS (I won't say "in
Scientology" since there are non CofS Scn groups around- something you
should know by now...) to be open eyed about the abuses and problems
and flat out illegalities that are taking place and to be willing to
put some pressure from within on the church. Rank and file public tend
to get squished like bugs whenever they dissent....but what if someone
with a bit more juice did it...Would be a different story.

And other church members would be more likely to listen to them as
they'd be what some in Scn call "OLs" (opinion leaders)

C

Magoo

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Nov 27, 2005, 6:29:38 PM11/27/05
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"Whatever" <bobblehea...@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1133130981.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Tory posted:
>
>> Me neither. She's married to one of Rene Duke's 6 sons, and last I heard,
>> ALL are still in Scientology.
>
> Be watching for a retraction to be printed in the SF Gate. The Scieno
> PR hacks aren't going to let this misinformation ride without a
> response. Karen Black has never left Scientology though there's good
> reason they don't use her "celebrity" for PR reasons: her acting sucks
> and the majority of her B-movies were major suck jobs, too.
>
> Black has been married to Stephen Eckleberry since 1987 (are you sure
> he's the son of Rene Duke?)

Positive.

She has a son from her first marriage who
> was originally cast in the role of Bud Bundy in "Married with Children"
> but dropped because producers didn't think he fit the role. His
> TV/movie career dwindled after that.
>
>> Too bad, as they're a really nice family.
>
> Many families in Scientology are. Tragic.

Agreed...........I especially feel sad for those families who have lost
their loved ones, around the holidays. It sucks, and then some.

Tory/Magoo~
>


Tigger Tigger

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Nov 27, 2005, 7:07:29 PM11/27/05
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Well....this website also says she is an outspoken critic of
Scientology. It mentions two husbands with no divorce dates given and
then a boyfriend. So is she married with boyfriend?

Karen Black
http://www.nndb.com/people/405/000024333/ Changed:8:18 AM on Sunday,
November 27, 2005

In the mid-1970s, Black announced that she was a Scientologist. A few
years later, she withdrew from the cult and became an outspoken critic.

(anip)

Father: Norman Ziegler
Mother: Elsie Reif Ziegler (b. 1910, novelist, The Face in the Stone)
Husband: L. M. Kit Carson (b. 1947, writer, Paris, Texas, producer,
Bottle Rocket)
Husband: Stephen Eckelberry (m. 27-Sep-1987, editor, Inner Sanctum II)
Son: Hunter Carson (actor, Perfume, writer, Bullfighter, b. 26-Sep-1975)
Daughter: Celine Eckelberry (b. Dec-1987, adopted by Black and
Eckelberry)
Boyfriend: Peter Kastner (b. 1944, actor, You're a Big Boy Now

Tigger Tigger

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Nov 27, 2005, 7:20:41 PM11/27/05
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Renee Duke's Cookie Cutter Pages

ABOUT MYSELF

Hello, my name is Renee Duke, and here is a little bit about
myself:       I am an artist and a counselor in Dianetics and
Scientology. I have six sons and nine-grandchildren, life is interesting
and fun!
 
    I first heard of Dianetics in 1948.      I was
graduating from Harvard-Radcliffe and someone gave me a copy of a thesis
written by L. Ron Hubbard as we were actually waiting to graduate. The
world was very earnest and serious. We had the war and I had lost many
friends. I was uncertain about the future and didn't believe in much of
anything, life seemed all wrong. Suddenly, as I read, I felt the world
slip into place, my future was exciting and real. I knew I could use
what I read to help others. I saw that all people are basically good and
the point of them that is bad is not them but their reactive mind* and
this can be handled. It meant that any effort to help someone or the
world was worth it because people were worth it. My childhood ideals
came back to life, and I've never lost them!

     I traveled all over the world with my husband and
children. We lived in Toronto, Canada; San Juan, Puerto Rico; Caracas,
Venezuela; Paris, France; Brussels, Belgium; Copenhagen, Denmark;
Clearwater, Florida and Hollywood, California.      Wherever I
went I talked to people and saw what a small planet we have and that we
can change it for the better, as long as we get busy and do it!

* (Reactive Mind: that part of a person's mind which is not under his
volitional control and which exerts force and the power of command over
his awareness, purposes, thoughts, body and actions.)

If you would like to contact me personally, click here.

MY SUCCESS IN SCIENTOLOGY

      I had known about Dianetics from 1948 and applied the
data to my family but I did not go to an official organization until
1968. I had been studying painting in Paris and had had several shows
but I wasn't sure where I was going with it and what I wanted to
communicate. I had counseling myself, my painting changed completely; I
saw that I wanted to paint the beingness of people and places and
express what was behind the facade. The more I have trained in applying
L. Ron Hubbard's technology to life, the more I have understood it.

     My sons, daughters-in-laws and grandchildren are all
Scientologists. It is exciting to see my grandchildren understand their
work in school, read and write beyond the ability of children their age
and see them reach out to understand the world and create their future.

      I've used L. Ron Hubbard's technology in every part of
my life. As a professional counselor, I can help in every problem people
can run into: drug dependency, study problems, marriage problems,
unresolvable conflicts and I can help them be free of these problems and
become what they want to be.

If you would like to contact me personally, click here.

Skipper

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Nov 27, 2005, 8:25:50 PM11/27/05
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In article <24085-438...@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net>, Tigger
Tigger <Tiggeri...@webtv.net> wrote:

> Renee Duke's Cookie Cutter Pages

Hmmm. Wonder why she told me "Ron" himself gave her the book? Note she
says "thesis written by" below. And she doesn't say who the "someone"
is. It was always my understanding that he wrote the original for
editor John Campbell to publish, not a thesis for a college. And since
he dropped out of college long before that, it doesn't make sense that
anyone at that college of hers would have a copy of his "thesis" does
it?

Tigger

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Nov 27, 2005, 9:41:08 PM11/27/05
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Skipper wrote:
> In article <24085-438...@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net>, Tigger
> Tigger <Tiggeri...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > Renee Duke's Cookie Cutter Pages
>
> Hmmm. Wonder why she told me "Ron" himself gave her the book? Note she
> says "thesis written by" below. And she doesn't say who the "someone"
> is. It was always my understanding that he wrote the original for
> editor John Campbell to publish, not a thesis for a college. And since
> he dropped out of college long before that, it doesn't make sense that
> anyone at that college of hers would have a copy of his "thesis" does
> it?

Yeah I wondered about that muyself and the date. DIANETICS was first
published in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION in May, 1950...right? And
it's been said that Hubbard wrote it in a weekend. Plus he
dropped/flunked out of college years before so it doesn't make sense
that someone would give her a copy of Hubbard's "thesis" in 1948.
Does anyone know exactly when Hubbard wrote DIANETICS?

And perhaps some ex-Scientologist could explain exactly what supposedly
intelligent, educated people found/find so fascinating and wonderful
about DIANETICS?

Tigger

Skipper

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Nov 28, 2005, 12:19:49 AM11/28/05
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In article <1133145668.5...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Tigger <booboo...@webtv.net> wrote:

> Skipper wrote:
> > In article <24085-438...@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net>, Tigger
> > Tigger <Tiggeri...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Renee Duke's Cookie Cutter Pages
> >
> > Hmmm. Wonder why she told me "Ron" himself gave her the book? Note she
> > says "thesis written by" below. And she doesn't say who the "someone"
> > is. It was always my understanding that he wrote the original for
> > editor John Campbell to publish, not a thesis for a college. And since
> > he dropped out of college long before that, it doesn't make sense that
> > anyone at that college of hers would have a copy of his "thesis" does
> > it?
>
> Yeah I wondered about that muyself and the date. DIANETICS was first
> published in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION in May, 1950...right? And
> it's been said that Hubbard wrote it in a weekend. Plus he
> dropped/flunked out of college years before so it doesn't make sense
> that someone would give her a copy of Hubbard's "thesis" in 1948.
> Does anyone know exactly when Hubbard wrote DIANETICS?
>
> And perhaps some ex-Scientologist could explain exactly what supposedly
> intelligent, educated people found/find so fascinating and wonderful
> about DIANETICS?
>
> Tigger

It was EASY. Anyone could do it. Paint by number paintings were huge in
the marketplace at the same time. Yvonne Jentzsch, the founder of
Celebrity Centre who died of a brain tumor, was a kindergarten teacher
in Australia when she got into it.

I trade letter with Steve Allen about it once. He said lots of people
were into it back then, it was the flavor of the moment like Kaballah
has been with some today.

Only they didn't know it was imply "earlier similar" abreaction and
part of psychology - Humbug was very careful to conceal the real
"Source" of just about everything he put to paper.

moontaco

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Nov 28, 2005, 12:33:51 AM11/28/05
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Tigger Tigger wrote:
> Well....this website also says she is an outspoken critic of
> Scientology. It mentions two husbands with no divorce dates given and
> then a boyfriend. So is she married with boyfriend?
>
> Karen Black
> http://www.nndb.com/people/405/000024333/ Changed:8:18 AM on Sunday,
> November 27, 2005

I don't understand. Where did "Changed 8:18 AM on Sunday, November 27,
2005" come from? I don't see it on the linked page.

If the NNDB entry was changed on November 27 (today), I wonder if that
Scientology bit was added by someone who read the SF Gate piece? The
NNDB accepts info/corrections from anyone.

I'd like to know where the writer of the SF Gate got the impression
that Black is an outspoken critic. Obviously, if it was already in
NNDB, the writer could have gotten it from there. (That would explain
the similar wording.) But it would be awfully sloppy for a journalist
to accept info from NNDB as fact.

I think if none of us have ever heard her criticize the CoS or
Scientology, she can't be very outspoken.

moontaco

Larry T.

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Nov 28, 2005, 2:16:22 AM11/28/05
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"Tilman Hausherr" <tilman...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:ck3ko1tllo5gisuif...@4ax.com...
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/PKG6UFSHSV1.DTL&type=performance
> ...
>
> Born Karen Blanche Ziegler, Black, 63, made her name in such seminal
> 1960s and '70s films as "Easy Rider" and "Five Easy Pieces" (which
> nabbed her an Oscar nomination for best supporting actress). Sometime in
> the midst of her career, however, the off-kilter beauty became anointed
> as a cult actress thanks, in part, to the stream of art-house and horror
> flicks that dot her resume like so many droplets of fake blood. A
> onetime Scientologist who later became an outspoken critic of the
> religion, her cult-leader status was sanctified when a goth band adopted
> the cheeky name the Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black.
>
> ...
>
> ====
>
> I've never heard that she is an "outspoken critic" of scientology.


No.

I met her at Flag when I was there and we talked for a bit.

She is in Scientology for the duration.

--
Larry
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeoqz2m/

(SNIP)


Tigger

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Nov 28, 2005, 9:53:52 AM11/28/05
to

moontaco wrote:
> Tigger Tigger wrote:
> > Well....this website also says she is an outspoken critic of
> > Scientology. It mentions two husbands with no divorce dates given and
> > then a boyfriend. So is she married with boyfriend?
> >
> > Karen Black
> > http://www.nndb.com/people/405/000024333/ Changed:8:18 AM on Sunday,
> > November 27, 2005
>
> I don't understand. Where did "Changed 8:18 AM on Sunday, November 27,
> 2005" come from? I don't see it on the linked page.

No it wasn't on the page. It came with the URL when I pulled it up.
This is nothing unusual.


>
> If the NNDB entry was changed on November 27 (today), I wonder if that
> Scientology bit was added by someone who read the SF Gate piece? The
> NNDB accepts info/corrections from anyone.

Most often I've found (when these notices appear) is that nothing has
been changed.....it seems to be something webmasters do to show that
their info is "still" current.


>
> I'd like to know where the writer of the SF Gate got the impression
> that Black is an outspoken critic. Obviously, if it was already in
> NNDB, the writer could have gotten it from there. (That would explain
> the similar wording.) But it would be awfully sloppy for a journalist
> to accept info from NNDB as fact.
>

Why don't you ask the journalist?

It's also here:

Karen Black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Black Changed:7:10 PM on Friday,
November 25, 2005

~~Quote~~

She became involved with Scientology in about 1978, but has since
denounced the controversial self-help organization. Citation needed

~~End of Quote~~

Sko....does someone want to call the Celebrity Center and ask them if
this is fact or fiction?

Tigger

Tigger

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Nov 28, 2005, 10:02:58 AM11/28/05
to

moontaco wrote:
> Tigger Tigger wrote:
> > Well....this website also says she is an outspoken critic of
> > Scientology. It mentions two husbands with no divorce dates given and
> > then a boyfriend. So is she married with boyfriend?
> >
> > Karen Black
> > http://www.nndb.com/people/405/000024333/ Changed:8:18 AM on Sunday,
> > November 27, 2005
>
> I don't understand. Where did "Changed 8:18 AM on Sunday, November 27,
> 2005" come from? I don't see it on the linked page.

No it wasn't on the page. It came with the URL when I pulled it up.
This is nothing unusual.
>


> If the NNDB entry was changed on November 27 (today), I wonder if that
> Scientology bit was added by someone who read the SF Gate piece? The
> NNDB accepts info/corrections from anyone.

Most often I've found (when these notices appear) is that nothing has


been changed.....it seems to be something webmasters do to show that
their info is "still" current.
>

> I'd like to know where the writer of the SF Gate got the impression
> that Black is an outspoken critic. Obviously, if it was already in
> NNDB, the writer could have gotten it from there. (That would explain
> the similar wording.) But it would be awfully sloppy for a journalist
> to accept info from NNDB as fact.
>

Why don't you ask the journalist?

It's also here:

Karen Black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Black Changed:7:10 PM on Friday,
November 25, 2005

~~Quote~~

She became involved with Scientology in about 1978, but has since
denounced the controversial self-help organization. Citation needed

~~End of Quote~~

Sko....does someone want to call the Celebrity Center and ask them if
this is fact or fiction?

Tigger

> I think if none of us have ever heard her criticize the CoS or

Lagniappe

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Nov 28, 2005, 2:09:07 PM11/28/05
to
Karen is on OT5 and her husband Steve got some auditing at AOLA
recently, their daughter Celine who is 17 is on course and Renee
Duke is now living in Clearwater and is on lines at Flag.

She's been on the Pro-metering Course for the last million years and
all she has left on the checkseet is the video pass which she keeps
on flunking for this reason or the the other, but the truth is that
anyone who is an original Cl 6 or Cl 8 always flunks videos at Flag.

Renee is probably fully aware of the situation at the Church, as she
is not dumb but I am sure she won't leave because she's 80 yrs old,
been in $cn for ever and she has no life outside the church, most of
her wog friends she met in her college days are old or dead or
happily retired and rich.

She lives in a apartment and she is trying to make ends meet with her
paintings and auditing children at the local scientology run school.
All her inheritance was wasted trying to get back on OT 7 but she was
not allowed to do so due to a heart condition.

Her other son is married to a rich mexican girl named Lorraine who
is disaffected from Renee, as a result of a botched ethics handling
at CCI, where Renee used to be their C/S, but they have no respect
for her there.

She had to leave the SO because they didn't want to take care of her
at her old age and she had no medical insurance like the rest of the
SO.

Her other son Riggs is married to Avis Hope the niece of Bob Hope.

Renee is a very close friend of Beck's mother....

Lagniappe


moontaco

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Nov 28, 2005, 5:44:52 PM11/28/05
to

Thanks for the info. Sounds like the reporter made a goof!

moontaco

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