What-----Who?

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Jesse Prince

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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If you had the unfortunate experience of having had the "privilege" of
paying tens of thousands of dollars for Scientology auditing, then
you'll have an idea of what I'm about to say here. If not, I'll make
it simple for you. When a Scientology victim progresses up to OT3,
what do you find out? L. Ron Hubbard tells you there is no such thing
as God or the Devil. It's all an alien space war.

Furthermore, you find out that your whole body is nothing more than a
hotel for disembodied spirits called "body thetans" or "BTs," and
groups of BTs called "clusters" that need extensive auditing. The
result? Pay more money, of course, to get more auditing.

That L. Ron Hubbard said there was no God was a real shock to me,
since I believed in God then and I still do now. I had thought
Scientology was a non-denominational religion. If there is no God,
then why all the hype about religion?

Now we move forward to 1982. In the summer of 1982 I was at Flag and I
worked in the Qualifications Division as a cramming officer. Right
around August a friend of mine, Mike Eldridge, came to me and told me
he was on a special mission. He showed me a dispatch which he said was
from LRH, which in fact was an order to find the best supervisor or
cramming officer in all of Scientology and bring that person to the
secret base in Hemet, California, to do correction on Int management
staff - CMO Int, ASI, Int management, etc., because they did not have
a clue how to manage international Scientology and were doing a bad
job.

Mike told me the search was over, because I was the person that met
the qualifications of the LRH order. Although I should have been
impressed by this, I told him I had no intention of going with him
anywhere, LRH order or not.

Later on that day, Mike came back and told me that I had no idea of all
the bad things that would happen to me if I refused the order from
LRH, that I would be declared, expelled from Scientlogy, and harassed
for the rest of my life. He told me Int management needed to reform
and I would be instrumental in getting that done. Well, I ended up
going "over the rainbow" to the secret location at Hemet. Instantly I
was presented with almost as many stripes as a zebra to show my
authority and was given other trappings of power as well - my own
private berthing space rather than being put in a dorm, personal
servants to clean my room, people to service my every need.

Then along comes David Miscavige to brief me on the current scene at
Int. During the briefing he interrupted himself to make what seemed to
me at the time to be a non-sequitur point. He said to me, "You
realize, don't you, that there is no such thing as God?"

I replied that I had read the OT3 pack and was therefore aware of
LRH's view on this subject.

I have often remembered that conversation since I've left Scientology.


As you move even higher up the "Bridge to Total Freedom," to the level
of New Era Dianetics for OTs, or NOTs, you are told to ask a whole new
level of BTs and clusters the following questions: "What are you?" and
"Who are you?" endlessly. At this level of NOTs you learn that
everything is made up of BTs - your emotions, your thoughts, your
body, your mind, the entire world is nothing but masses of these
disembodied beings.

Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
of God - the Devil himself?

Well, here is a little story to shed some light on What... Who?

I'll eventually tell you my whole story, but first, this one:

It was the summer of 1992 and I was desperately trying to leave the
Int base any way I could. I was living with others who were also
trying to leave. We were all kept in an old house known as the Old
Gilman House, or OGH, which also served as the "isolation house" for
physically ill Sea Org members.

It was there that I saw a grisly sight that still gives me nightmares.


A Sea Org member of ten years plus, Diane Morrison, who was
approximately 30 years old, had been diagnosed with cancer.
Scientology is paranoid about X-rays and gamma rays, and they refused
to let Diane get chemotherapy. The two Scientology doctors, one was LRH's
personal physician--N.B. LRH is dead too..., prescribed a course of
vitamin therapy and auditing to cure Diane's cancer.

Needless to say, Diane continued to worsen day by day. Finally, one of
the doctors told her to let go so she could just die. Some doctor, huh?
Diane stopped eating and drinking after that, and she turned into a walk-
ing skeleton. She was in constant pain and would moan and scream day and
night. Her husband, Shawn Morrison, was the Port Captain, which is the
post responsible for dealing with public relations matters for the
base in Hemet. Shawn refused to visit his wife, but after a time he
was ordered to go and visit her. When he saw what had happened to her
he screamed and ran out of the room.

It was known that Diane was very close to death, and it would have
been a public relations flap if she had died on the base. So Shawn was
ordered to take her off the base to his mother's house so she could
die there. Being a good Sea Org member, Shawn drove her, screaming and
moaning, to his mother's house where she was laid under an air
conditioner.

Diane died within two days. She did not die of cancer. She died of
starvation.

Shawn was upset because he had to miss post time to drive Diane to his
mother's house.

Diane's death was a horrifying experience to all who knew about it.

Knowing that LRH insisted he was Satan, knowing that you are used
until you drop dead in the Sea Org, do you really want to be a part of
this way of thinking or this way of life? What about the nut cases
running Scientology and the Sea Org? For all of you misguided people
still in Scientology or the Sea Org, please get a clue and take this
cue and run for your life away from anything to do with Scientology
or the Sea Org, lest you become the next Diane Morrison or Lisa
MacPherson.

Scn is a dead archaic idea. L Ron Hubbard is dead, a victim of his own
machinations! Take a hint, it's over. By the mere fact Scn will not embrace
modern medical technology to the detriment of it's members is appalling. Why
would anyone just eat raw meat after the advent of fire? Hell, we now have
stoves, microwaves, etc. Get the point? LRH is dead and a few mindless puppets
are carrying on the tradition of something that may have been novel in the 50's
but the novelty of Dianetics and Scn have long since passed.

Scientology is evil to the core.

Respectfully submitted,

Jesse Prince

Joe Harrington

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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Jesse Prince wrote:
>

> As you move even higher up the "Bridge to Total Freedom," to the level
> of New Era Dianetics for OTs, or NOTs, you are told to ask a whole new
> level of BTs and clusters the following questions: "What are you?" and
> "Who are you?" endlessly. At this level of NOTs you learn that
> everything is made up of BTs - your emotions, your thoughts, your
> body, your mind, the entire world is nothing but masses of these
> disembodied beings.

Hi Jesse,

One of the major projects of FactNet is to determine the frequency of
psychotic breaks, suicides, and premature deaths related to solo NOTS.
I've seen enough raw data on the subject to conclude that it is far from
infrequent. And one of the targets of the RTC raiders in August 1995 was
to obtain FactNet's files on the reports of these deaths. This project
has not made much progress in the last several years, although it of
primary interest to me.

Can you shed any light on this subject and if so, what Scientology does
to keep these incidents out of the public view?

> Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
> is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
> Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
> of God - the Devil himself?

This brings up the subject of the notorious HCOB of 5 May 1980, The OT8
Student briefing, attributed to LRH as the author, wherein he makes
statements regarding the nature of all other religions, his previous
life as the Buddha, and the sexuality of Jesus Christ.

I have been in contact with several former Cl XIIs auditor who said that
Hubbard was indeed the author of this document. Understandbly, they
opted to remain anonymous. However, this document is not in the current
OT8 course pack and very accurate summaries of the actual OT8 processes,
provided by several people who did the OT8 materials aboard the
Freewind, have been posted in this newsgroup in the past. When
confronted with this document Scn's lawyers have disavowed it and said
it was a "forgery" created to alienate other religions.

Have you ever seen this document while you were in the Sea Org?

And evidently, OT8 is also delivered at the Gold base for Sea Org
personnel? Is the material in the course pack different from what the
public gets aboard ship?

Joe

Ralph Hilton

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 03:10:39 GMT, jesse_...@minton.org (Jesse Prince) wrote:

Hi Jesse. Good to hear from you again. Welcome to the cyberland of the free.

>Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
>is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
>conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
>Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
>of God - the Devil himself?
>

What has seemed the most valid story about OT8 is that posted by Adrienne
Jackson some time back - that one goes through past identities encountered in
auditing and checks them for validity.

Where is the data about LRH saying he is Satan and the final conflict from?

OT8s coming out of the CofS have said nothing about this.

All the best,

(p&m)

--

Ralph Hilton
http://Ralph.Hilton.org

Neal Hamel

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 03:10:39 GMT, jesse_...@minton.org (Jesse Prince)
wrote:


[ snippage of disturbing revelations ]


>Scientology is evil to the core.
>
>Respectfully submitted,
>
>Jesse Prince
>

Jesse,

Since the 1982 exodus of many staff members, there has been no one quite
like you to reveal nearly current information from a high level within the
cult. I know you have OSA angry, revengeful and ready to strike back.
They will produce what is guaranteed to be nasty DA packs on you. They
will, in their zeal to discredit you entirely, screw up as usual. Be
strong as you continue to stir up the hornets nest.

Your first post of substance here is a beaut. Consistent with what I knew
of the cult (1968 through 1981 ), but disturbing nonetheless.

Take care.

-Neal H.


Lurker Zero

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:27:31 GMT, ra...@atnet.at (Ralph Hilton) wrote:

>What has seemed the most valid story about OT8 is that posted by Adrienne
>Jackson some time back - that one goes through past identities encountered in
>auditing and checks them for validity.
>
>Where is the data about LRH saying he is Satan and the final conflict from?

I've read that bulletin (obtained on the internet) where LRH says he
is LUCIFER, not Satan. Lucifer as in "bringer of light" or "bringer of
truth", not the evil demon who sits in hell punishing bad spirits for
eternity. I saw this bulleting back in 96 while lurking.
Unfortunately I lost it. Could somebody please tell me where I can
find it on the internet?

As far as the rest of the bulletin is concerned, I think there's a
good possibility of it being genuine. It's certainly not any stranger
than OT3 material. It seemed coherent and had a certain LRH "flaire"
to it.

He talks about how there's a group of beings "outside of this
universe" (I would assume these are the last few beings left in the
Magic universe) who have the advantage of not being subject to the
time restrictions of this universe. Because they are outside of our
MEST universe time, they can see a visio of our future and thus take
proactive measures to implant and control us. He says that the final
conflict in Revelations is not all hooey but is in fact a fairly
accurate "prophesy" or foretelling of the events that are going to
transpire. My recall on the specifics is vague (haven't seen the
bulletin in 2 years) but it goes something like this: These "beings"
have implanted our bodies (or maybe the GE) with control mechanisms so
that when the time comes, we will be totally obedient and ready to be
taken over as their slaves. LRH then says something like there are
very few "untainted" bodies left and that Scientologists must either
find pure bodies or somehow audit out these control mechanisms. Time
is running short because the final conflict "Armageddon" will be here
pretty soon. There is a tone of urgency throughout the bulletin. Ron
(Lucifer, or bringer of truth) and the scientologists will fight these
"beings" and their cronies (government agencies and Catholic church?)
By the way he says that the Revelations has one fact backwards,
they've got the good guys and the bad guys mixed up. It's actually
Lucifer (aka anti-christ) and his side that are the good guys and that
the second coming of Jesus is actually the evil "beings ouside our
universe".

Anyhow the OT8 moniker of "TRUTH REVEALED" would make sense if the
above really is part of OT8.

>OT8s coming out of the CofS have said nothing about this.

I would expect them to say nothing about this.

>
>All the best,
>
>(p&m)
>
>Ralph Hilton
>http://Ralph.Hilton.org


Mike O'Connor

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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In article <35ca8b12...@news.atnet.at>, Ra...@Hilton.org wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 03:10:39 GMT, jesse_...@minton.org (Jesse Prince)
wrote:
>

> Hi Jesse. Good to hear from you again. Welcome to the cyberland of the free.
>

> >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
> >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
> >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
> >of God - the Devil himself?
> >
>

> What has seemed the most valid story about OT8 is that posted by Adrienne
> Jackson some time back - that one goes through past identities encountered in
> auditing and checks them for validity.
>
> Where is the data about LRH saying he is Satan and the final conflict from?
>

> OT8s coming out of the CofS have said nothing about this.

I guess it might a the passage in that OTVIII which many have said is a
forgery. Here it is. Since the cult denies authorship, they do not claim
copyright on this document.

From the below: "This anti-Christ represents the forces of Lucifer
(literally, the "light bearers" or "light bringer"), Lucifer being a
mythical representation of the forces of enlightenment, the Galactic
Confederacy. My mission could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise
represented by this brief anti-Christ period."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor. East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO BULLETIN OF 5 MAY 1980

LIMITED DISTRIBUTION ISSUE I

OT VIII Course Students
OT OT VIII Auditors
OT VIII CIS*s
AO Review Auditors
AO C/Ses
OT VIII Series I

C O N F I D E N T I A L

STUDENT BRIEFING

By the time you read this I will no longer be occupying the body and
identity that you have known as Ron. That identity continues to live in
the hearts and minds of many as well as in on-Source tech and admin
centers around the planet, and will inspire for years to come
Scientologists and lovers of truth every-where.

What follows is a story that has been withheld, for reasons which will
soon be obvious, until such time as there were enough OTs that something
could be done about it. That time Is now. It is not a nice or a pretty
story. but I trust that having arrived on the OT VIII Course you are ready
to hear it. You have undoubtedly heard pieces of data over the years
that hinted at the greater untold reality of my mission here on Earth. but
the story was never written, nor spoken. in its entirety due to security
problems that have unfortunately always plagued the organization. It is
only now that I feel it safe to release the information, although the time
is rapidly approaching when I will have no choice in the matter, the hour
draws that near.

I an not going to delve too deeply into specifics as people have a
tendency to bog themselves down in significance. which would only serve to
delay the immediacy of the task at hand. Therefore I will be brief.

Some eighty-odd million years ago Earth time (it actually dates at
78,395,042 but dates are & bit superfluous with this material) plans were
drawn by a group outside the MEST universe for the eventual takeover of a
good portion of this universe. Not a particularly large nor Imaginative
crew, their exterior perspective. however. gives them considerable
advantage over tho time-bound beings of the MEST universe. Borrowing
from earlier operations such as Helotrobus. they conceived an ongoing
implant. some portions of which have been fairly faithfully rendered in
parts of the Bible. This implant, laid in by carefully controlled genetic
mutation at Incident Two of OT Ill and periodically reinforced by
controlled historic events since then, makes it effectively impossible for
beings on the more heavily affected planets such as Earth to become free.
It causes progressive genetic "evolution" that gives the subject
population greater and greater susceptibility to the telepathic
impingement and direction of the controllers. In its final stage the
progression becomes almost geometric, and it is this final stage that we
are rapidly approaching.

Another aspect of this GE-line implant is that the body becomes in
effect a sort of thats trap that kicks in heavily on the being should he
attempt to expand his horizons beyond that of pure physical universe
reality. There can be temporary key-outs which we have all experienced
in varying degrees. but until this area is handled it can honestly be
said that there is no hope for continued expansion. The good news
is that once this is run out. expansion becomes rather effortless and
almost automatic.

No doubt you are familiar with the Revelations section of the Bible where
various events are predicted. Also mentioned Is a brief period of time in
which an arch-enemy of Christ. reforred to as the anti-Christ, will
reign and his opinions will have sway. All this makes for very
fantastic, entertaining reading but there is truth in it. This
anti-Christ represents the forces of Lucifer (literally, the "light
bearers" or "light bringer"), Lucifer being a mythical representation
of the forces of enlightenment, the Galactic Confederacy. My mission
could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise represented by this brief
anti-Christ period. During this period there is a fleeting
opportunity for the whole scenario to be. effectively derailed. which
would make it impossible for the mass Marcabian landing (Second
Coming) to take place. The Second Coming is designed, among other
things, to trigger a rapid series of destructive events.

With the exception of the original Buddhism, virtually all religions
of any consequence on this planet, mono- and pantheistic alike. have
been instruments to speed the progress of this "evolution of
consciousness" and bring about the eventual enslavement of mankind.
As you know, Siddhartha Gautama never claimed to be anything more
than a man. Having caught on to this operation, he postulated his
own return as Metteyya, part of which prophecy will have been
fulfilled upon the passing of L. Ron Hubbard.

For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on. let me
take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For
instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been
made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men.
he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied
the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab
PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to
see where it all inevitably leads. It Is historic fact and yet man
still clings to the ideal. so deep and insidious is the biologic
implanting.

It Is a good joke that the Calactic Confederacy is associated with the
Serpent in the Garden, the beast and other emissaries of the "Prince of
Darkness". Yet in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of
the Bible (much of which has been taken out and effectively suppressed
for centuries) as well as the Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself
quite nicely for the clever and the ungullible.

So it really is a race against time and one that we happen to be losing
at the moment, as the implant drama inexorably plays itself out in spite
of the breakneck pace I've managed to keep up these last thirty-five
years.

I had an inkling, but only that, of the insidiousness of this material
as far back as 1945. Later. in charcteristic over-optimism, I
thought that R6 would be the end of it. But that was followed by
NOTs and the Purification Rundown and still the string continued to
unwind with the ball at the end of it just out of sight. It makes
ons wonder about such things as fate and destiny, such was the resolve
with which I managed to cling to that string. not often knowing how close
I was to falling into the abyss myself. but destiny it merely the
rationalization of feeble minds. Things don't just happen, they are
caused. And causative beings can undo the plans of madmen and would-be
enslavers, no matter how long those plans may have been in the making.

I will soon leave this world only to return and complete my mission with
another Identity. Although I long to stretch my arms back in repose
on some distant star in some distant galaxy. It appears that is one
dream that will have to wait. But my return depends on people like
you doing these materials thoroughly and completely so that there will
be a genetically uncontaminated body for me to pick up and resume where
I left off. A body free of religious mania, right/wrong dichotomy and
synthetic karma. The job ahead is far too tough to even contemplate
doing with your standard -- courtesy of certain other-dimensional players
and their Marcab pieces, many of whom are right here In the general
populace -- genetically altered body.

Without the biogenetic meddling of those who stand outside time (who
cannot yet directly influence our world and must work through others) the
dwindling spiral is not nearly as automatic and self-perpetuating as
it appears. There are regions even in isolated parts of the Milky Way
where poets are free to poet and magicians can paint reality with
their magic wands and exteriorize without body kickback. But these
areas unfortunately are fewer and fewer.

I will return not as a religious leader but a political one. That
happens to be the requisite beingness for the task at hand. I will not
be known to most of you, my activities misunderstood by many, yet along
with your constant effort in the theta band I will effectively postpone
and then halt a series of events designed to make happy slaves of us
all.

So there you have it. The secret that I have kept close to my chest
all these years. Now you too are part of this secret and I no longer
have to shoulder the burden alone or live with the possibility of body
death before all the data could be released. And with this briefing I
entrust to each of you the responsibility for this material until such
time as I an able to return. For we have no help from any other
quarter in this matter. The handful of secret societies throughout
history that have caught on to this game have long since fallen by the
wayside or been taken over and become instruments of the very menace they
were set up to combat.

The rundown is long and can be arduous, but it must be done thoroughly if
there is to be any effect not only on the body of the pre-OT but the body
of his or her progeny as wall. There is some danger, but with OT VII
thoroughly complete It is not nearly so great as the danger witnessed by
assorted unfortunates who happened to stumble into this area in their
sleep or in moments of reverie or anaten, experiencing an hitherto
mysterious phenomenon known as "spontaneous combustion".

CAUTION: DO NOT BE PTS WHILE TRAVERSING THIS THIRD AND FINAL WALL OF FIRE

But the area is well charted. the rundown many years in secret
development, and by the time you read this undoubtedly completed on
myself. The wins awaiting you are like none that you have ever
experienced, not just for you. but for your children. your children's
children and the whole of mankind, if we succeed. And we will. If we had
time we should pity the many poor souls, from 1950 to PT, who chose
such an exactly inopportune moment to drop off the road to truth and
disconnect from reality, the full burst and glory of OT practically within
their grasp. But we haven't the time to "wax philosophic" or ponder might
have beens.

The rundown follows. Again I say, do it thoroughly and completely, for it
is your ticket to the stars. And beyond!

L. RON HUBBARD
FOUNDER

LRH:lrh
Copyright (c) 1980
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would like to know if Jesse feels the document is authentic.

-Mike
Censored by Scientology

Tilman Hausherr

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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In <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>, jesse_...@minton.org (Jesse
Prince) wrote:

>A Sea Org member of ten years plus, Diane Morrison, who was
>approximately 30 years old, had been diagnosed with cancer.
>Scientology is paranoid about X-rays and gamma rays, and they refused
>to let Diane get chemotherapy. The two Scientology doctors, one was LRH's
>personal physician--N.B. LRH is dead too..., prescribed a course of
>vitamin therapy and auditing to cure Diane's cancer.

That would be Gene Denk. Who is the other? Megan Shields?

Tilman

--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos

Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.

Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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In article <6q6c2m$n8h$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>, Lurker Zero writes:
>On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:27:31 GMT, ra...@atnet.at (Ralph Hilton) wrote:
>
>>What has seemed the most valid story about OT8 is that posted by Adrienne
>>Jackson some time back - that one goes through past identities encountered in
>>auditing and checks them for validity.
>>Where is the data about LRH saying he is Satan and the final conflict from?
>
>I've read that bulletin (obtained on the internet) where LRH says he
>is LUCIFER, not Satan. Lucifer as in "bringer of light" or "bringer of
>truth", not the evil demon who sits in hell punishing bad spirits for
>eternity. I saw this bulleting back in 96 while lurking.
>Unfortunately I lost it. Could somebody please tell me where I can
>find it on the internet?

This supposed Bulletin ( <---note spelling ) was circulated as part
of the Fishman affidavit, so you will find it where anyone has the
"Fishman materials". However, I will spell this out carefully:
whatever the source of that text, SOMEBODY HAS FORGED ON TOP OF IT
THE PRETENDED DISTRIBUTION LIST FOR AN HCOB. You can see that it is
a forged document header because the distribution is far too broad.
It is not an HCOB from OT8.

What it **really** is, now that's an interesting question;
but it's not what it's claimed to be there.

|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)


Lord Xenu

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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References: <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>

> It was the summer of 1992 and I was desperately trying to leave the
> Int base any way I could. I was living with others who were also
> trying to leave. We were all kept in an old house known as the Old
> Gilman House, or OGH, which also served as the "isolation house" for
> physically ill Sea Org members.

Is this the house of which you speak?
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/8730/house.html

(Other comments regarding the accuracy of my page at
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/8730/ welcome)

> It was there that I saw a grisly sight that still gives me
> nightmares.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

L.X.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Xapped

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
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On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Jesse Prince wrote:

[...]


>
> It was known that Diane was very close to death, and it would have
> been a public relations flap if she had died on the base. So Shawn was
> ordered to take her off the base to his mother's house so she could
> die there. Being a good Sea Org member, Shawn drove her, screaming and
> moaning, to his mother's house where she was laid under an air
> conditioner.
>
> Diane died within two days. She did not die of cancer. She died of
> starvation.

I knew they had to have a way of getting rid of the bodies. Scientology
puts them out in the wog world and abandons them, like people used to put
deformed babies out in the woods to die.

This is a good reason to register and regulate Scientology.

Joe Xapped German Scientology News http://cisar.org

Tax cults. Cults are not "new religious movements." They are companies
which engage in the commerce of addictive psychological therapy.


Martin Hunt

unread,
Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
In article <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>,
jesse_...@minton.org (Jesse Prince) wrote:

[Shocking story about the death of Diane Morrison]

Jesse, it is good you're talking about these things, as no
one else who knows about them is willing to.

>Diane died within two days. She did not die of cancer. She died of
>starvation.

She died of ignorance and stupidity - the ignorance and stupidity
of Lafayette Hubbard, carried on as a torch of darkness by his
followers after his death.

--
Cogito, ergo sum.
"Scientology is evil to the core." - Jesse Prince, former core
Scientologist.
http://www.islandnet.com/~martinh/prince/prince.htm

Lisa Chabot

unread,
Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
Jesse Prince <b...@minton.org> wrote:
>It was known that Diane was very close to death, and it would have
>been a public relations flap if she had died on the base. So Shawn was
>ordered to take her off the base to his mother's house so she could
>die there. Being a good Sea Org member, Shawn drove her, screaming and
>moaning, to his mother's house where she was laid under an air
>conditioner.
>
>Diane died within two days. She did not die of cancer. She died of
>starvation.

I can't figure out why Shawn's mother allowed this--was (or is) she also
a Scientologist? Why didn't someone take her to a hospital, where they
could give her a pain-relieving and stimulating combination of drugs, to
at least sooth her final hours, if the cancer was indeed terminal at
this point. Yes, it's clearly against her religious beliefs...is this,
then what Scientologists believe? That auditing can cure cancer, and
that if it fails, it's the victim's fault? Do Scientologists reading
this story believe that Diane was, at her core, a bad person, or at least
a bad Scientologist, and she brought this on herself, and she deserved
to die a long, slow, painful death, screaming and moaning for A MONTH?
Is that right? Is that the correct justification?

All right, maybe you don't think that, but clearly, several
Scientologists did at the time. You weren't there and you
didn't make these decisions, and, I'm hoping, you too think
this is a horrible situation that could have been avoided or
at least buffered with caring.

Or is it all just lies because Scientologists don't die of cancer,
and all these obituaries Scientologists who've died of cancer are
part of a conspiracy to discredit your scriptures...and if some of
them are accurate, well those Scientologists weren't really
practicing right, etc. etc.

If it's that damn hard to get right,
how good do you think your chances are?

(I'm very saddened by this story of Diane. I wish she'd chosen to live,
and I wish she'd gotten real medical treatment in time, and I wish I
could believe that what happened to her was for the best BUT I DON'T.)

.
.
.
--
non-spam can be sent to lsc at this ISP

"What I mean by a shifty eye," continued Miss Marple, "is the kind
that looks very straight at you and never looks away or blinks."

Steve o´Brian

unread,
Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
Jesse Prinz wrote:
Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
of God - the Devil himself?

Hubbard said that he is the satan of the bible, but the bible itself is a
big implant according to Hubbie, and so is all misleading, and those who
wrote the bible saw that in the future someone (Hubbie) will come and rescue
the people out of the "claws" of the really evil god.

So in short:
God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god said in
the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the good!

Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!

WHIPPERSNAPPER

unread,
Aug 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/6/98
to

In article <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>,
Jesse Prince <b...@minton.org> wrote:

>That L. Ron Hubbard said there was no God was a real shock to me,
>since I believed in God then and I still do now. I had thought
>Scientology was a non-denominational religion. If there is no God,
>then why all the hype about religion?

Jesse Prince, religious scholar.


...


>Then along comes David Miscavige to brief me on the current scene at
>Int. During the briefing he interrupted himself to make what seemed to
>me at the time to be a non-sequitur point. He said to me, "You
>realize, don't you, that there is no such thing as God?"

...
>Knowing that LRH insisted he was Satan...

I've been anonymously sent some curious documents, one of which I have
excerpted below:


Quote

MINTON COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
PR ORDER 11R

NEW SCIENO IMAGE PROJECT

17 JULY 1998
Revised 1 Aug 1998
CONFIDENTIAL
ARSCC EXECS
J.P
R.V.Y
S.Y

...

17a. In coordination with the Minton essays in Target 6 above and the
continued animal-hatred theme of the Youngs (see M.C.O PRO 6RA)
J.P. is to make a dramatic entry to a.r.s using the buttons found
in M.C.O. Bulletin 6 Jan 1998 HOT PR TOPICS. He is not to deviate
from unqualified derision and unmitigated invalidation of any and
every concept of CoS doctrine and its principals. Push the "not a
religion" and "anti-religion" buttons HARD, these are proven win-
ners with the Christians. Lie your ass off, it's OK. We'll back
you up. Work the insider angle, nobody can check you out.

____________________Jesse
...

17c. Known loyal ARSCC affiliates are to be encouraged to slam every
suggestion Jesse is full of shit by the Damned Scieno Scum. Hit
them with the "is no Christ" thing, it usually shuts them up.

____________________W.B.

...

The BOB

BM:sy


End quote.

Some of it is just too wild to quote here, but suffice it to say this
and the others in the packet were hard to dismiss entirely. Might be
something to this stuff.

I'll get back to you after the OSA guys and I have worked thru more
details and hunted down corroborating data.


- Whippersnapper

"It must be huge! How disgusting! Ugghh!" -- Calvin

Steve Jebson

unread,
Aug 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/6/98
to
Ralph Hilton wrote:
>
> On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve o´Brian) wrote:

>
> >Jesse Prinz wrote:
> >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
> >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
> >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
> >of God - the Devil himself?
> >
> >Hubbard said that he is the satan of the bible, but the bible itself is a
> >big implant according to Hubbie, and so is all misleading, and those who
> >wrote the bible saw that in the future someone (Hubbie) will come and rescue
> >the people out of the "claws" of the really evil god.
> >
> >So in short:
> >God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god said in
> >the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the good!
> >
> >Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
> >He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!
> >
>
> Jesse is going to have to answer my earlier question about this or I shall
> consider him to be losing credibility fast.
>
> If he's just quoting from Fishcake then he is in for problems.
>
> Come on Jesse. Answer my question! Do you have some evidence that Hubbard wrote
> the Fishcake OT8?

It isn't too incredible that LRH identified himself in this way. At the
beginning
of a PDC tape, I believe the very first, LRH tells an anecdote about
meeting a
woman who believed she was under attack by the 'Prince of Darkness'. He
describes
listening to her spiel about the Prince of Darkness and responding, 'Who
do you
think I am?'

These competing OT8s have got me confused, and we could use some
clarification
here. I've read the 'pedophile' OT8 and it didn't have the slightest
resemblance
to LRH's style. I've seen Arriane Jackson's description and it seems
plausible.
I've also spoken to an FZ auditor who claims to have seen OT8 and says
her
description is correct.

Is this a third OT8, or is it supposed to be the same as the pedophile?
I
haven't seen that one in a long time, but I don't remember it saying
what
Jesse described.

Ralph Hilton

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
On 06 Aug 1998 15:17:45 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:

>
>In article <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>,
>Jesse Prince <b...@minton.org> wrote:
>

>>That L. Ron Hubbard said there was no God was a real shock to me,
>>since I believed in God then and I still do now. I had thought
>>Scientology was a non-denominational religion. If there is no God,
>>then why all the hype about religion?
>

>Jesse Prince, religious scholar.

Well Jesse did actually study a lot of LRH. Did you ever audit a PC?
Have you done the academy levels?

Ralph Hilton

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve o´Brian) wrote:

>Jesse Prinz wrote:
>Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
>is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
>conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
>Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
>of God - the Devil himself?
>

>Hubbard said that he is the satan of the bible, but the bible itself is a
>big implant according to Hubbie, and so is all misleading, and those who
>wrote the bible saw that in the future someone (Hubbie) will come and rescue
>the people out of the "claws" of the really evil god.
>
>So in short:
>God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god said in
>the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the good!
>
>Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
>He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!
>

Jesse is going to have to answer my earlier question about this or I shall
consider him to be losing credibility fast.

If he's just quoting from Fishcake then he is in for problems.

Come on Jesse. Answer my question! Do you have some evidence that Hubbard wrote
the Fishcake OT8?

I don't like what the CofS is doing.

I also don't tolerate people presenting unsubstantiated data about the crimes of
the CofS or Hubbard.

There are enough actual crimes from what I can see.

I'm quite happy when people post truths about what occurred and is occurring but
I have little patience when people post that LRH said he was Satan and don't
reply to my questions about it.

Dig back through the archives of A.R.S. I think you will see that I have
supported criticism of the CofS where it is substantiated but when I have
observed that it was born from delusions such as those of Fishcake (Steven
Fishman) then I have worked hard to expose the lies.

When Steven Fishman posted a bunch of lies about the CofS I spent many hours
doing a detailed posting with detailed specifics about his lies.

The only way to handle this monstrosity is to deal in truth.

You have a lot to say, I think - lets deal in facts not fantasies.

Deana Marie Holmes

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 01:29:56 GMT, ra...@atnet.at (Ralph Hilton) wrote:

>You have a lot to say, I think - lets deal in facts not fantasies.

I agree with Ralph. Please elucidate.


Deana Marie Holmes
The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
mir...@xmission.com

Funky Donny

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to

Steve Jebson <nais...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<35CA86...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>...


> Ralph Hilton wrote:
> >
> > On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve o´Brian)
wrote:
> >
> > >Jesse Prinz wrote:

> > >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
> > >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> > >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
> > >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
> > >of God - the Devil himself?
> > >

> > >Hubbard said that he is the satan of the bible, but the bible itself
is a
> > >big implant according to Hubbie, and so is all misleading, and those
who
> > >wrote the bible saw that in the future someone (Hubbie) will come and
rescue
> > >the people out of the "claws" of the really evil god.
> > >
> > >So in short:
> > >God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god
said in
> > >the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the
good!
> > >
> > >Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
> > >He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!
> > >
> >
> > Jesse is going to have to answer my earlier question about this or I
shall
> > consider him to be losing credibility fast.
> >
> > If he's just quoting from Fishcake then he is in for problems.
> >
> > Come on Jesse. Answer my question! Do you have some evidence that
Hubbard wrote
> > the Fishcake OT8?
>

> It isn't too incredible that LRH identified himself in this way. At the
> beginning
> of a PDC tape, I believe the very first, LRH tells an anecdote about
> meeting a
> woman who believed she was under attack by the 'Prince of Darkness'. He
> describes
> listening to her spiel about the Prince of Darkness and responding, 'Who
> do you
> think I am?'
>
> These competing OT8s have got me confused, and we could use some
> clarification
> here. I've read the 'pedophile' OT8 and it didn't have the slightest
> resemblance
> to LRH's style.

Doesn't mean a thing. Considering that lorry loads of tech was written by
others, I find the concept of 'on-source' to be not only irrelevant, but
laughable in this debate!

In any case, whether it's genuine, forged, whether Hubbard wrote it,
whether he made a lackey write it or whether he had the wretched thing
ghost-written by Herbert bleeding Lom makes no odds. It is a bag of old
shite in every case! Why oh why do we care so deeply about such DETAILS.
It's ALL a load of bollocks, so let's move onto the real issues, like how
we stop these people doing the damage they continue to do.

So let's argue about whether Hubbard thought he was the Anti-Christ, or
Lucifer, or Satan, or Hitler, or Vlad the Impaler. Whatever. The fact is I
don't care if he thought he was Darth Vader, in every case he qualifies as
a big mad fool. End of debate. And even if you find out what he actually
said on OT8, I doubt if anyone will say "Wow! That's the one I needed to
convince me; you're right, he's a fucking maniac"; we had enough evidence
of that from the 'Dianetics' book alone!

Starshadow

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
In article <01bdc1c9$29740ae0$c210...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk>,
e...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk says...

>
>
> Steve Jebson <nais...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote in article
> <35CA86...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>...
> > Ralph Hilton wrote:
> > >
> > > On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve o´Brian)
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Jesse Prinz wrote:
> > > >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
> > > >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> > > >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
> > > >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
> > > >of God - the Devil himself?
> > > >

While it may not seem germaine to you, I'd submit that it is important
from an accuracy standpoint to find out what is genuine and what isn't;
failing to do so can undermine the critics' credibility.

The criminal cult can get away with what it has done in covering up
deaths because most people still think that since it calls itself a
religion, and "religion" is somewhat sacred, that a religion just
wouldn't do any of the things it seems to be doing. Documenting what is
and isn't true is therefore important.

--
Bright Blessings,


Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke

Ralph Hilton

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:46:26 -0700, Steve Jebson
<nais...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote:

>Ralph Hilton wrote:
>>
>> On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve o´Brian) wrote:
>>
>> >Jesse Prinz wrote:

>> >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says that he
>> >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
>> >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why call
>> >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the antithesis
>> >of God - the Devil himself?
>> >

>to LRH's style. I've seen Arriane Jackson's description and it seems
>plausible.
>I've also spoken to an FZ auditor who claims to have seen OT8 and says
>her
>description is correct.
>
>Is this a third OT8, or is it supposed to be the same as the pedophile?
>I
>haven't seen that one in a long time, but I don't remember it saying
>what
>Jesse described.

Jesse apears to be referencing the "paedophile" issue. No-one has yet publicly
said that they saw this in the CofS. I consider it a fake.

The full text follows:

HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor. East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO BULLETIN OF 5 MAY 1980 ISSUE I

LIMITED DISTRIBUTION

OT VIII Course Students
OT VIII Auditors
OT VIII C/Ses

AO Review Auditors
AO C/Ses

OT VIII Series 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L

STUDENT BRIEFING

By the time you read this I will no longer be occupying the body and identity
that you have known as Ron. That identity continues to live in the hearts and
minds of many as well as in on-Source tech and admin centers around the planet,
and will inspire for years to come Scientologists and lovers of truth

everywhere.

What follows is a story that has been withheld, for reasons which will soon be
obvious, until such time as there were enough OTs that something could be done

about it. That time is now. It is not a nice or a pretty story. but I trust that


having arrived on the OT VIII Course you are ready to hear it. You have
undoubtedly heard pieces of data over the years that hinted at the greater

untold reality of my mission here on Earth, but the story was never written, nor
spoken, in its entirety due to security problems that have unfortunately always


plagued the organization. It is only now that I feel it safe to release the
information, although the time is rapidly approaching when I will have no choice
in the matter, the hour draws that near.

I an not going to delve too deeply into specifics as people have a tendency to

bog themselves down in significance which would only serve to delay the


immediacy of the task at hand. Therefore I will be brief.

Some eighty-odd million years ago Earth time (it actually dates at 78,395,042

but dates are a bit superfluous with this material) plans were drawn by a group


outside the MEST universe for the eventual takeover of a good portion of this

universe. Not a particularly large nor imaginative crew, their exterior
perspective, however, gives them considerable advantage over the time-bound


beings of the MEST universe. Borrowing from earlier operations such as

Helatrobus, they conceived an ongoing implant, some portions of which have been


fairly faithfully rendered in parts of the Bible. This implant, laid in by

carefully controlled genetic mutation at Incident Two of OT III and periodically


reinforced by controlled historic events since then, makes it effectively
impossible for beings on the more heavily affected planets such as Earth to
become free. It causes progressive genetic "evolution" that gives the subject
population greater and greater susceptibility to the telepathic impingement and
direction of the controllers. In its final stage the progression becomes almost
geometric, and it is this final stage that we are rapidly approaching.

Another aspect of this GE-line implant is that the body becomes in effect a sort

of theta trap that kicks in heavily on the being should he attempt to expand his


horizons beyond that of pure physical universe reality. There can be temporary
key-outs which we have all experienced in varying degrees. but until this area
is handled it can honestly be said that there is no hope for continued

expansion. The good news is that once this is run out, expansion becomes rather
effortless and almost automatic.

No doubt you are familiar with the Revelations section of the Bible where

various events are predicted. Also mentioned as a brief period of time in which
an arch-enemy of Christ, referred to as the anti-Christ, will reign and his


opinions will have sway. All this makes for very fantastic, entertaining reading
but there is truth in it. This anti-Christ represents the forces of Lucifer
(literally, the "light bearers" or "light bringer"), Lucifer being a mythical
representation of the forces of enlightenment, the Galactic Confederacy. My
mission could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise represented by this brief
anti-Christ period. During this period there is a fleeting opportunity for the

whole scenario to be effectively derailed which would make it impossible for the


mass Marcabian landing (Second Coming) to take place. The Second Coming is
designed, among other things, to trigger a rapid series of destructive events.

With the exception of the original Buddhism, virtually all religions of any

consequence on this planet, mono- and pantheistic alike, have been instruments


to speed the progress of this "evolution of consciousness" and bring about the
eventual enslavement of mankind. As you know, Siddhartha Gautama never claimed
to be anything more than a man. Having caught on to this operation, he
postulated his own return as Metteyya, part of which prophecy will have been
fulfilled upon the passing of L. Ron Hubbard.

For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on let me take the


opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic
Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to

being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of


temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and
other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings

inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man
still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.

It is a good joke that the Calactic Confederacy is associated with the Serpent
in the Garden, the beast and other emissaries of the "Prince of Darkness". Yet


in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of the Bible (much of which has
been taken out and effectively suppressed for centuries) as well as the
Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself quite nicely for the clever and the
ungullible.

So it really is a race against time and one that we happen to be losing at the
moment, as the implant drama inexorably plays itself out in spite of the
breakneck pace I've managed to keep up these last thirty-five years.

I had an inkling, but only that, of the insidiousness of this material as far

back as 1945. Later. in characteristic over-optimism, I thought that R6 would be


the end of it. But that was followed by NOTs and the Purification Rundown and
still the string continued to unwind with the ball at the end of it just out of

sight. It makes one wonder about such things as fate and destiny, such was the
resolve with which I managed to cling to that string, not often knowing how
close I was to falling into the abyss myself. But destiny is merely the


rationalization of feeble minds. Things don't just happen, they are caused. And
causative beings can undo the plans of madmen and would-be enslavers, no matter
how long those plans may have been in the making.

I will soon leave this world only to return and complete my mission with another

identity. Although I long to stretch my arms back in repose on some distant star
in some distant galaxy it appears that is one dream that will have to wait. But


my return depends on people like you doing these materials thoroughly and
completely so that there will be a genetically uncontaminated body for me to
pick up and resume where I left off. A body free of religious mania, right/wrong
dichotomy and synthetic karma. The job ahead is far too tough to even
contemplate doing with your standard -- courtesy of certain other-dimensional

players and their Marcab pieces, many of whom are right here in the general


populace -- genetically altered body.

Without the biogenetic meddling of those who stand outside time (who cannot yet
directly influence our world and must work through others) the dwindling spiral
is not nearly as automatic and self-perpetuating as it appears. There are
regions even in isolated parts of the Milky Way where poets are free to poet and
magicians can paint reality with their magic wands and exteriorize without body
kickback. But these areas unfortunately are fewer and fewer.

I will return not as a religious leader but a political one. That happens to be
the requisite beingness for the task at hand. I will not be known to most of
you, my activities misunderstood by many, yet along with your constant effort in

the theta band I will effectively postpone and then halt a series of events


designed to make happy slaves of us all.

So there you have it. The secret that I have kept close to my chest all these
years. Now you too are part of this secret and I no longer have to shoulder the
burden alone or live with the possibility of body death before all the data
could be released. And with this briefing I entrust to each of you the
responsibility for this material until such time as I an able to return. For we
have no help from any other quarter in this matter. The handful of secret
societies throughout history that have caught on to this game have long since
fallen by the wayside or been taken over and become instruments of the very
menace they were set up to combat.

The rundown is long and can be arduous, but it must be done thoroughly if there
is to be any effect not only on the body of the pre-OT but the body of his or
her progeny as wall. There is some danger, but with OT VII thoroughly complete

it is not nearly so great as the danger witnessed by assorted unfortunates who


happened to stumble into this area in their sleep or in moments of reverie or
anaten, experiencing an hitherto mysterious phenomenon known as "spontaneous
combustion".

CAUTION: DO NOT BE PTS WHILE TRAVERSING THIS THIRD AND FINAL WALL OF FIRE

But the area is well charted. the rundown many years in secret development, and
by the time you read this undoubtedly completed on myself. The wins awaiting you
are like none that you have ever experienced, not just for you. but for your
children. your children's children and the whole of mankind, if we succeed. And
we will. If we had time we should pity the many poor souls, from 1950 to PT, who
chose such an exactly inopportune moment to drop off the road to truth and
disconnect from reality, the full burst and glory of OT practically within their
grasp. But we haven't the time to "wax philosophic" or ponder might have beens.

The rundown follows. Again I say, do it thoroughly and completely, for it is
your ticket to the stars. And beyond!

L. RON HUBBARD
FOUNDER

LRH:lrh
Copyright (c) 1980 by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

--

Ralph Hilton
http://Ralph.Hilton.org

Funky Donny

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Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to

Starshadow <stars...@mindless.com> wrote in article
<MPG.1034b73dd...@nntp.lightlink.com>...


> In article <01bdc1c9$29740ae0$c210...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk>,
> e...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk says...
> >
> >
> > Steve Jebson <nais...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote in article
> > <35CA86...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>...

> > > Ralph Hilton wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 5 Aug 1998 10:35:25 GMT, Steve_...@t-online.de (Steve
o´Brian)
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Jesse Prinz wrote:

> > > > >Moving along, we get to OT8 and what does LRH say now? He says
that he
> > > > >is Satan, the "bringer of light," and he makes mention of a final
> > > > >conflict as given in the Book of Revelations. Again I ask, why
call
> > > > >Scientology a religion when its founder believes he is the
antithesis
> > > > >of God - the Devil himself?
> > > > >

Yes, of course, you are 100% on the mark. I fully subscribe to these aims,
however, what I said was funny...


WHIPPERSNAPPER

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Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
In article <35e258df...@news.atnet.at>,

Ralph Hilton <Ra...@Hilton.org> wrote:
>On 06 Aug 1998 15:17:45 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:
>
>>
>>In article <35c67b4b...@news.tiac.net>,
>>Jesse Prince <b...@minton.org> wrote:
>>
>>>That L. Ron Hubbard said there was no God was a real shock to me,
>>>since I believed in God then and I still do now. I had thought
>>>Scientology was a non-denominational religion. If there is no God,
>>>then why all the hype about religion?
>>
>>Jesse Prince, religious scholar.
>
>Well Jesse did actually study a lot of LRH. Did you ever audit a PC?
>Have you done the academy levels?

So did I, yes, and no, in that order.

You see, what this stuff from "Jesse" is, is PR, plain and simple.

Not only *is* there a concept of God that is integral to Scn
(notwithstanding that it is not dogmatically addressed), but the presence
or absence of belief in God is not the defining criterion of religion.

Furthermore, if he made any genuine study of the subject, he knows this
quite well, since his studies would have included the Ministers' Course
which includes treatment of a number of the major religions. Favorable
tretament, I might add. Some of those religions have no closely-held
concept of God in anything like the Christian sense, such as Buddhism and
Hinduism. They are of course religions nonetheless.

Yes, I did do the Ministers' Course.

It would appear to me this Mr. Prince is engaging in blatant, calculated,
dishonest PR, or he is abysmally stupid; or perhaps he's being told what
to write.

And there's always the distinct possibility that whoever is writing that
stuff isn't a long-term much-trained Scientology auditor at all.

I looked for Webbed stuff on Jesse Prince, and found only a couple of
unkind accounts of his behavior while an RTC board member in the early
80's, and the apparrent fact he fell into serious disfavor and spent time
in the RPF about the time Mayo was busted, in 1982 or so.

Well, I know from some personal experience and a lot of less-involved
observation that Mayo was better gone. The house-cleaning that ejected
Mayo, if it swept up Prince as well, was apparently well-motivated;
especially if this online "Jesse" and the historical one are one and the
same.

I could easily respond to some other things coming from this Prince
persona; he's obviously a frothing rabid PR dog without any vaguest
concern for accuracy or decency.


- Whippersnapper

"Do you think God lets you plea bargain?" -- Calvin

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
In article <35e15094...@news.atnet.at>, Ralph Hilton writes

>>So in short:
>>God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god said in
>>the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the good!
>>Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
>>He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!
>
>Jesse is going to have to answer my earlier question about this or I shall
>consider him to be losing credibility fast.
>If he's just quoting from Fishcake then he is in for problems.
>Come on Jesse. Answer my question! Do you have some evidence that Hubbard wrote
>the Fishcake OT8?

I suspect Jesse's background is Admin not Tech, and he is passing on
what someone else told him about the Tech side. Would you mind
confirming this for us, Jesse, and saying where you get it?

I am one of a minority--with Joe Harrington and Roland Rashleigh
Berry--who think that this lecture fragment MAY WELL BE (**unproven**)
by Hubbard. HOWEVER: the Fishman version has been altered
with a **fake** distribution header to make it appear it had been
issued as an OT8 bulletin. Most likely the conclusion is that it
was never so issued. Pretty much every credible source here thinks
it was never so issued. So I'd like to know the source....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article <MPG.1034b73dd...@nntp.lightlink.com>, Starshadow
<stars...@mindless.com> writes


>> Doesn't mean a thing. Considering that lorry loads of tech was written by
>> others, I find the concept of 'on-source' to be not only irrelevant, but
>> laughable in this debate!
>> In any case, whether it's genuine, forged, whether Hubbard wrote it,
>> whether he made a lackey write it or whether he had the wretched thing
>> ghost-written by Herbert bleeding Lom makes no odds. It is a bag of old
>> shite in every case! Why oh why do we care so deeply about such DETAILS.
>> It's ALL a load of bollocks, so let's move onto the real issues, like how
>> we stop these people doing the damage they continue to do.
>

> While it may not seem germaine to you, I'd submit that it is important
>from an accuracy standpoint to find out what is genuine and what isn't;
>failing to do so can undermine the critics' credibility.

Ed, while I spend a lot more effort figuring out how to sink them,
it *is* important to be accurate and not advance dodgy information.

Starshadow

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Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
In article <01bdc222$1fe01e20$Loca...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk>,
e...@heavymetal.demon.co.uk says...

>
> Yes, of course, you are 100% on the mark. I fully subscribe to these aims,
> however, what I said was funny...

True, as well (what you said) in that Elron was at the very least a
pathological liar, and in my (non professional) opinion, a paranoid
schizophrenic. But the Oo$ is shooting itself in the foot quite nicely,
and the arscc(wdne) must continue to look sane by comparison, and not
make things up, or misconstrue the facts.

WHIPPERSNAPPER

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Aug 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/7/98
to
In article <35ccc6d6...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Neal Hamel <smok...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>On 07 Aug 1998 11:29:10 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:
>
>>
>>Not only *is* there a concept of God that is integral to Scn
>>(notwithstanding that it is not dogmatically addressed), but the presence
>>or absence of belief in God is not the defining criterion of religion.
>
>Hubbard could have defined the 8th dynamic as Oreo* cookies and it would
>make no difference in the theology of scientology. Hence, not integral.

You only display your own ignorance with this stupidity. It most
certainly would make a difference. Not only is it an important element of
the philosophy of the Dynamics, where of course it logically belongs; but
that Dynamic is addressed in some auditing processes.

There is no question whatsoever that the concept of a Supreme Being,
loosely defined though it is (and I believe simply must be), has a firm
and indispensable place in the Scn philosophy.


>I have heard Hubbard state the following, "I am sorry if this [matter under
>discussion] offends those of you who believe in the 'Big Thetan in the Sky'
>" Hubbard and his audience all laughed.

I never heard this and I would welcome a reference to it WITH its context,
please.

Assuming even you're being accurate, such an aside would NOT necessarily
be inconsistent with reality or with Scientology. Few would disagree that
for many, some very odd concepts and beliefs attend the idea of a Supreme
Being, Prime Mover or whatever you wish to call it, and Ron made a
practice of attributing events to knowable causes, not to the unknowable.

By my lights, Scn takes the only possible honest approach to the subject,
whereby no mere human presumes to define God beyond its place in the
scheme of a sensible philosophy. Nor does Scn claim falsely to know its
origins or intent; but rather presents it as the mystery it must always
be, unknowable in any absolute sense but apparently necessary to the
miracle of life itself, and to any effort to fully embrace the nature of
existence.


- Whippersnapper

"I don't know. How can you tell without looking?" -- Hobbes

Joe Harrington

unread,
Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>

> I suspect Jesse's background is Admin not Tech, and he is passing on
> what someone else told him about the Tech side. Would you mind
> confirming this for us, Jesse, and saying where you get it?

IIRC, I think Jesse stated he was "Qual Sec", which is a tech post,
Division 5.


Joe

Ralph Hilton

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Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:49:10 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
<da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <35e15094...@news.atnet.at>, Ralph Hilton writes
>>>So in short:
>>>God, who is bad, mislead mankind.God saw Hubbie will come, but god said in
>>>the past the devil will come. Hubbie says now that he is in fact the good!
>>>Hubbard never wanted to show anything bad of himself to the people!
>>>He never would pretend to be something if it is not best!
>>
>>Jesse is going to have to answer my earlier question about this or I shall
>>consider him to be losing credibility fast.
>>If he's just quoting from Fishcake then he is in for problems.
>>Come on Jesse. Answer my question! Do you have some evidence that Hubbard wrote
>>the Fishcake OT8?
>

> I suspect Jesse's background is Admin not Tech, and he is passing on
> what someone else told him about the Tech side. Would you mind
> confirming this for us, Jesse, and saying where you get it?
>

> I am one of a minority--with Joe Harrington and Roland Rashleigh
> Berry--who think that this lecture fragment MAY WELL BE (**unproven**)
> by Hubbard. HOWEVER: the Fishman version has been altered
> with a **fake** distribution header to make it appear it had been
> issued as an OT8 bulletin. Most likely the conclusion is that it
> was never so issued. Pretty much every credible source here thinks
> it was never so issued. So I'd like to know the source....
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~

You would have to ask Jesse about his tech postings.
I didn't know him very well but I think he spent a fair while on the tech side.

Joe said some cl 12s said that the issue is valid.

Well if they are too shit scared to talk up for themselves I don't give them a
lot of hearing.

Neal Hamel

unread,
Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
On 07 Aug 1998 11:29:10 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:

>
>Not only *is* there a concept of God that is integral to Scn
>(notwithstanding that it is not dogmatically addressed), but the presence
>or absence of belief in God is not the defining criterion of religion.

Hubbard could have defined the 8th dynamic as Oreo* cookies and it would
make no difference in the theology of scientology. Hence, not integral.

I have heard Hubbard state the following, "I am sorry if this [matter under


discussion] offends those of you who believe in the 'Big Thetan in the Sky'
" Hubbard and his audience all laughed.

-Neal H.

*No offense to those of you who think that Sunshine Hydrox cookies come
closer to God.


Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

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Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
In article <35CB9E...@worldnet.att.net>, Joe Harrington writes:

>Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>>
>
>> I suspect Jesse's background is Admin not Tech, and he is passing on
>> what someone else told him about the Tech side. Would you mind
>> confirming this for us, Jesse, and saying where you get it?
>
>IIRC, I think Jesse stated he was "Qual Sec", which is a tech post,
>Division 5.

Whoops; I'm just spouting the orthodoxy that this ain't an OT8 HCOB

Nevertheless would he know what was in OT8 which was, I'm told, only
ever delivered on board the main ship?

In article <35f5a44c....@news.atnet.at>, Ralph Hilton writes:
>Joe said some cl 12s said that the issue is valid.
>
>Well if they are too shit scared to talk up for themselves I don't give them a
>lot of hearing.

I believe Joe's line is that it *is* genuine Hubbard but was never
issued or run as OT8 (Joe?). I tend to agree with that.

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

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Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
In article <35fd53cc....@news.atnet.at>, Ralph Hilton writes:
>>Nevertheless would he know what was in OT8 which was, I'm told, only
>>ever delivered on board the main ship?
>
>It may also have been delivered to staff at the desert base.

>
>>In article <35f5a44c....@news.atnet.at>, Ralph Hilton writes:
>>>Joe said some cl 12s said that the issue is valid.
>>>
>>>Well if they are too shit scared to talk up for themselves I don't give them a
>>>lot of hearing.
>>
>>I believe Joe's line is that it *is* genuine Hubbard but was never
>>issued or run as OT8 (Joe?). I tend to agree with that.
>
>I'd accept the possibility but couldn't give it real credence unless a few peole
>come out and say they actually saw it while in the CofS and clarify how exactly
>it was presented.

Or wasn't presented for teaching, it "may well be" (although there is no
positive proof) something intended once to be an OT8 but never issued;
i.e. this is plausible & consistent with the facts, thoough not proven.

Joe Harrington

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Aug 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/8/98
to
Ralph Hilton wrote:

>
> On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:13:47 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
> <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >Nevertheless would he know what was in OT8 which was, I'm told, only
> >ever delivered on board the main ship?
> >
>
> It may also have been delivered to staff at the desert base.

Yes, OT8 is also delivered for Sea Org at the Gold Base. One of the Cl
XIIs from Flag did OT8 there. Two weeks after he came back, he was
RPF'd.

Joe

Neal Hamel

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Aug 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/9/98
to
On 07 Aug 1998 22:53:29 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:

>In article <35ccc6d6...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
>Neal Hamel <smok...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>On 07 Aug 1998 11:29:10 PDT, Whip...@cris.com (WHIPPERSNAPPER) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>Hubbard could have defined the 8th dynamic as Oreo* cookies and it would
>>make no difference in the theology of scientology. Hence, not integral.
>

>You only display your own ignorance with this stupidity. It most
>certainly would make a difference. Not only is it an important element of
>the philosophy of the Dynamics, where of course it logically belongs; but
>that Dynamic is addressed in some auditing processes.
>
>There is no question whatsoever that the concept of a Supreme Being,
>loosely defined though it is (and I believe simply must be), has a firm
>and indispensable place in the Scn philosophy.
>

How gracious of you, Whip!

Let me explain what I meant since you seemed to have trouble with the
thought.

In every instance I know of where a religion defines a God, they give that
god the responsibility for creation and or everyday occurances. There are
religions that believe in multiple gods, so sometimes the gods are
responsible for difference aspects of life.

Some religions, like Jews and Christians have a belief that God expects
ethical conduct of them. Other religions seem to think that God requires
some sacrifice or duty or generally is to be feared.

In all cases I know of, when a religion has a god, that god's supposed
existance explains something and creates a duty or reaction from those that
believe in God(s) existance. This is not at all the case in scientology.

First off, Hubbard only said there was a god and that God was associated
with the 8th dynamic and left undefined. Scientology claims to be an
applied religious philosophy.

I'll be charitable for a bit and assume that the various practices vis a
vis preclears and preots are religious. Examination of those practices
shows that none of them, repeat none, have anything to do with Hubbard's
nebulous statements about God. There is no correlation whatsoever evident
in all of scientology. Further, the higher you go up in the levels, the
more and more one is caught up BTs and all of that stuff, seemingly going
away from any thought of the or application of the philosophy contained in
Hubbards statements about the 8th dynamic.

Here is a thought. How could there be a relationship between god and the
practices of scientology when the concept of god in scientology is
undefined, hence, by definition an M/U?

Like I said Hubbard could have defined the 8th dynamic as Oreo cookies and
it would make no difference in the theology of scientology. I could have
added, especially as to how it is applied.

-Neal H.


Ralph Hilton

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Aug 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/9/98
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On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 20:58:05 -0400, Joe Harrington <joe...@cybertours.com>
wrote:

>Yes, OT8 is also delivered for Sea Org at the Gold Base. One of the Cl
>XIIs from Flag did OT8 there. Two weeks after he came back, he was
>RPF'd.
>
>Joe

Did this Class XII claim that the disputed issue was part of the OT8 or that
they saw it elsewhere?

This, if the case, opens up the possibility that the OT8 for Sea Org contains
material not issued to public doing OT8.

Anonymous

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Aug 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/12/98
to
stars...@mindless.com (Starshadow) wrote:

>But the Oo$ is shooting itself in the foot quite nicely,
>and the arscc(wdne) must continue to look sane by comparison, and not
>make things up, or misconstrue the facts.

"Must continue"?????

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


Starshadow

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Aug 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/13/98
to
In article <1998081200...@replay.com>, nob...@replay.com says...

You have a point? (Besides the one on top of your head, I mean).

Please don't take my statement out of context next time.

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