Denver Post Article on Co$ raid in Boulder, CO

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Chris Yoder

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Aug 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/23/95
to Ron Newman, Maureen Garde
OK, Here ya go. One of the things that I find newly alarming is
that the clams got stuff that is unrelated to Slimetology.

Any typos, are once again OCR errors that I missed.


+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Get the mail address from the headers! | Sabreur for NCF in Boulder |
+--Copyright 1995 by Chris Yoder -PGP via Finger | Telecon on IRC |
| No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy! --Sun Tzu |

Front Page Denver Post Wed Aug 23 1995

Photo Caption: DISGUSTED: Lawrence Wollersheim stood in his Boulder
apartment yesterday afternoon and expressed disgust - just after U.S.
marshals seized his computer and documents and turned them over to the
Church of Scientology.

HEADLINE: Scientology foes' data seized
SUB HEADLINE: Homes in Boulder, Niwot raided by U.S. marshals


By George Lane
Denver Post Staff Writer


BOULDER-A computerized attack on the Church of Scientology was halted
yesterday when U.S. marshals raided the homes of two church detractors.

The marshals turned over the computers and documents to officials of the
church.

"Marshals just hauled out all kinds of public records," said detractor
Lawrence Wollersheim of Boulder. " . . . attorney-client privilege
documents, books legally purchased at any B Dalton bookstore. This was a
Scientology cult raid to seize the confident ial records of FACTNet."

FACTNet is a nonprofit, Internet computer library established by the two
men.

The second raid was at the Niwot home of Bob Penny. "They've taken two
computers, hundreds of diskettes, enormous piles of papers, CDs, backup
tapes from the computer," he said. "And, the marshals let the Scientology
people take them."

To get the court order allowing the raids, lawyer Todd Blakely charged
that Wollersheim and Penny were violating federal copyright laws by
posting confidential and copyrighted material on the Internet.

Until their computers were unplugged

Please see RAID on 9A HEADLINE on Page 9: Scientology foes' homes are
raided

RAID from Page 1A


and removed yesterday, Wollersheim and Penny used their FACTNet (Fight
Against Coercive Tactics Network) to "educate" subscribers about the evils
of Scientology and computer cults.

In an article published in the Boulder Weekly earlier this month,
Wollersheim challenged the church and invited Scientobgists to sue if they
felt what he was doing was libelous or false.

Attorneys for the church apparently took Wollersheim at his word. On
Monday, they went to U.S. District Court in Denver, obtained a temporary
restraining order against Wollersheim and Penny and obtained an order from
Judge Lewis Babcock that authorized th e raids.

"The courts take these matters very seriously," Blakely said in a
statement released shortly after the raids started at about 9 a.m. "The
law is clear-if you are going to violate copyrights, you will have to
answer for it in court. Here, the evidence was just clear-they violated
the copyrights, they had infringing copies on computer and they threatened
future violations. The judge enforced the law."

Wollersheim, who said he has tried to collect a S5 million judgment from
The Church of Scientology since 1986 and Penny were excommunicated from
the church long before they started their computerized attacks according
to church officials.

"Wollersheim has been trying to con the church and the general public for
20 years," said church spokeswoman Karin Pouw. "We recognized him for what
he is and expelled him from the church. Now the law has finally caught up
with him."

Blakely said that while the church considers what Wollersheim and Penny
were doing to be illegal, this is not a criminal case and won't involve
arrests. "This is a simple copyright, trade-secrets case," he said. "We
are taking his computer because we don' t know what's on the hard drive.
We offered him a replacement that we brought with us, but he refused. Yes
he's unplugged."

Blakely also admitted' he now has the items seized by the marshals.

"This is a library," Wollersheim said as the marshals were wrapping up
their operation yesterday. "This group, Scientology, has an FBI history of
planting false evidence. And, what the government did is just gave these
guys all of this information and walked out the door.

"I have no inventory," he said. "The marshals said I would have an
inventory. They just hauled the stuff out the door. I have no idea of what
just walked out of here. They took thousands and thousands of pages maybe
l00,000 pages or 50,000 pages.

"This information is mailing list and records from 8,500 victims of
cults," Wollersheim added. "Their confidential stories of how their lives
were ruined by cults are now in the hands of Scientology. This is
absolutely insane. There was no due process."

Among the materials confiscated are reports of hundreds-of suicides and
attempted suicides of kids going psychotic during secret cult initiations
that have been described on the Internet. He said he and Penny were
putting together that information for a p ossible grand jury investigation
into why these people are attempting suicide or committing suicide.

A court order similar to the one obtained by Scientology in Denver was
obtained from a federal court in Virginia earlier this month and U.S.
marshals seized the same kind of alleged anti-Scientology materials and
computer hardware and software from the ho me of Arnaldo Lerma.

In recent months, Lerma, like Wollersheim and Penny, had placed dozens of
these documents on the Internet, in a discussion group called
alt.religion.scientology, a busy place in cyberspace, where Scientology
critics and adherents gather to trade arguments , insults and threats.

For a long time, the church treated its Internet critics as bothersome
pests, sometimes answering their critiques, sometimes ignoring them. But
in the past week, Scientology has revved up its legal machinery, launching
a fierce campaign to protect its mos t closely guarded scripture.

On the same night Lerma's home was raided, church officials also paid a
surprise visit to the home of a Washington Post reporter, seeking the
return of documents Lerma had sent him. And in Los Angeles, the church has
persuaded a judge to seal the court fi le containing the disputed
Scientology documents.

It is from these court files that Wollersheim said he legally obtained
some of the documents he placed on the Internet.

The Washington Post contributed to this report.

SIDE BAR : SCIENTOLOGY

Scientology is a religious movement founded in 1952 by L. Ron Hubbard,
U.S. science-fiction writer and author of the best-selling book Dianetics
(1950). The book iaunched a popular self-enhancement movement out of which
Scientology emerged. The basic post ulate of dianetics is that experience
in this or previous lives, is recorded in the brain as 'engrams,' later re
stimulated by similar but not identical situations to cause inappropriate
and selt-defeating behavior. Through processed exposure of the engra ms
one can erase them, 'go clear,' and be 'at cause' of one's behavior.

Scientology has ministers who perform some religious rites and sacraments,
and who also often have been involved in social work. But their most
time-consuming function is generally individual counseling, for which a
financial contribution is expected.

Scientology is tightly organized from the top down, with a close-knit
inner circle and many highly committed adherents. It has been the topic of
considerable controversy and several encounters with government agencies
in the United States and the British Commonwealth. In the 1 970s it had
several hundred thousand followers, at least, and impressive property
holdings.

Source: The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions, Harp r & Row
Publishers.

Scott Weiser

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Aug 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/23/95
to
Chris Yoder <ch...@eris.uchsc.edu> wrote:
>
> OK, Here ya go. One of the things that I find newly alarming is
> that the clams got stuff that is unrelated to Slimetology.

This is an unbelievable and unconcionable travesty of justice!

Whether or not the materials being distributed are copyrighted or
are in the public domain, it is absolutely wrong for the Federal
government to allow a private individual to search and seize
someone's private papers. If it is to be done, it should be done
by the police and the papers should be individually inspected by
the court to see if they are pertinent, and the search of the disks
should be by law enforcement as well.

This case indicates the sorry state of civil actions, and tort reform
is long overdue.

The Plaintiffs stole from him "copyrighted" materials which has nothing
to do with them and is the defendants property, they also took
components which had nothing to do
with allegedly stolen copyrighted and trade secret materials ie: the
computers, modems, keyboards, and any other hardware which did not
have in it or on it any copyrighted material.

At the most, what
should have been seized were ONLY those SPECIFIC materials claimed
in the warrant, which should have been seized only after inspection of
EACH and EVERY single page, to ensure that no non-pertinent info
was included, and, perhaps, the HARD DRIVES ONLY, which were
alleged to have the offending information on them, but more properly
ONLY those FILES which ACTUALLY contained the material. They seized
EVERYTHING as harrasment, and to prevent him from exercising his
First Amendment rights. This is WRONG!

These items, ESPECIALLY the magnetic media, should have been tagged,
sealed and held in evidence by a neutral party to ensure that the
Plaintiffs do not tamper with the evidence. It would be possible for
them to deliberately insert "restricted" materials onto the disks and
then claim that the defendant had "stolen" the info.

This is a clear demonstration of why he should have had "Pretty Good
Privacy", and should have encrypted EVERYTHING on the disks, most
especially his mailing list.

Now, if Phil Zimmerman would write an addition to PGP which, when
given a specific WRONG password, would act as a virus and scramble
the file immediately and then begin a DOD wipe of the disk.....Hm,
what a good idea, I hereby copyright the idea and say "Patent (being)
applied for"....

That way, when they demand the password, you give them the "wipe"
word, and before you know it, bingo! all gone....

Of course you might get a contempt citation out of it, but who knows,
you might be better off....

Scott


todd

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Aug 24, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/24/95
to
Philip (ha...@rmii.com) wrote:
: What seems scary to me is that this group seems to have this
: special privilage of accompanying and aiding law officials. Can
: any legal types out there tell us if this is indeed uncommon.

That's not as scary as the part of the newspaper article
that says that the stuff was just handed over to the
Scientologists. If they committed a crime, isn't the
evidence supposed to go in some protected locker some-
where, not just given to the accuser?

What can an average citizen like myself do to let my
officials know what I think of this?

Todd.
--
Todd Bradley -- Videodrome Participant
"Long live the new flesh."

Paul Moloney

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Aug 25, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/25/95
to
Philip <ha...@rmii.com> wrote:

>What seems scary to me is that this group seems to have this
>special privilage of accompanying and aiding law officials. Can
>any legal types out there tell us if this is indeed uncommon.

I'm interesting in an answer to that too, so I've crossposted
this to c.o.e.t and misc.legal. Any legal types out there have
an answer?

P.

--
moorcockdenislearypratchettdelasouliainbanksneworderclivejamesbatmanpjorourke
vr p a u l m o l o n e y "`Discipline!' I bellowed.`Remember Vince Lombardi!'"
pe dublin ireland http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~pmoloney/
brownbladerunnerdrhunterthompsonsugarcubesjohnwooblaylockpowershiassenorbital


Mark Eckenwiler

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Aug 25, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/25/95
to
In <41k7hp$r...@news.Ieunet.ie>, pmol...@maths.tcd.ie sez:
>Philip <ha...@rmii.com> wrote:
>
>>What seems scary to me is that this group seems to have this
>>special privilage of accompanying and aiding law officials. Can
>>any legal types out there tell us if this is indeed uncommon.
>
>I'm interesting in an answer to that too, so I've crossposted
>this to c.o.e.t and misc.legal. Any legal types out there have
>an answer?

It's not a special privilege. Anybody who waltzes into federal court
and makes a facial showing of copyright infringement can get an order
of seizure. Note, BTW, that the complaining party must post a bond to
indemnify the other party in case the claim of infringement turns out
to be invalid.


Anne

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Aug 25, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/25/95
to
Mark Eckenwiler (e...@panix.com) wrote:

But wouldn't it follow that whatever property siezed should
be in the custody of the court, and not in the possession of
the plaintiff? They are siezing personal property, email, mail
lists, addresses, phone numbers, etc., to which they have no
right. Isn't this an invasion of privacy?

Anne ... <anne...@panix.com>

R R M Tweek

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
Brad Wallace <br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>
>It sounds to me more like a case of the law not being updated for
>the computer age.

That's exactly the way the AP report reported on the Wollersheim hearing
today. (saw it on clari.news.* this afternoon)


--
tw...@netcom.com tw...@tweekco.ness.com tw...@io.com DoD #MCMLX SP-3
Fodder-Line: Kibo Scientology C&S CoS Lawyers CofS Green Card Clear OT clam
http://www.io.com/~tweek/ tw...@ccnet.com OT-7 Dr. Doo's little Llama

Elisabeth Higgins

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
Just a note here that this is being crossposted to co.general, a local
newsgroup, and the whole Scientology issue is not generally discussed here.
For any who are not aware, alt.religion.scientology is probably the newsgroup
with the most real-world ramifications, and it reads like a combination
between a cheesy sci-fi novel (by...hmmmmm...who would write anything like
THAT?!?!?) and the craziest black-helicopters, spy-cameras-in-your-TV
conspiracy theory you've ever heard. But it's better. It's true. AND it's
interactive!!!

A worldwide protest is scheduled for September 9th. Check a.r.s for details,
and show up, unless, of course, you happen to be, oh, say, a CHICKEN-BUTTED
SISSY OR SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yrs,
Lisa.


---
A pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters was the uniform of
the Hoipolloi. Such a figure often rode on the roller coaster cars.
Monkeys were also used on the cars. Elephants sometimes formed part
of the equipment. --L. Ron Hubbard, Dead Scientology Guy

Scott Weiser

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
tw...@netcom.com (R R M Tweek) wrote:
>
> Brad Wallace <br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> >
> >It sounds to me more like a case of the law not being updated for
> >the computer age.
>
> That's exactly the way the AP report reported on the Wollersheim hearing
> today. (saw it on clari.news.* this afternoon)

Actually, I believe that the problem is that they were using a bad
law written FOR the computer age, one designed to allow software
manufacturers to seize pirated software......

Scott

henry

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <brad.80...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca>,
Brad Wallace <br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca> wrote:

>Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into
>account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
>a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.

this is not all. in dennis erlich's case, they stole all kinds
of paper including bank statements and the unlisted phone numbers
of friends for the purpose of harassment. also, they even stole
hair from one of his hairbrushes, presumably for use in some
future frame-up, all with these brain-dead loser rent-a-cops
standing there watching. in the lerma and FACTnet cases, they
also seized totally irrelevant material, while the drooling
federal marshals stood there in a coma or jerking off, god
knows what, totally ignoring crimes being committed in front
of their eyes.

what's the use of federal marshals? why do they even bother
having these worms, when they're obviously just rubber-stamps
to whatever the lunatics who lied to a judge to get the
writ want to do. hell, they probably could have just started
randomly smashing up the place and those worthless dickheads
wouldn't have done anything.

h
- --
Xenu's Famous House o' Clams T-shirts!
*All* profits go to MoFo to help with the Dennis Erlich Defense Fund.
Email to: lad...@gnu.ai.mit.edu for details
$15 per shirt, 3 colors. Design available at
http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html

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=TmJO
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Elisabeth Higgins

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
In article <brad.80...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca>,
br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) wrote:
>Xref: netcom.com co.general:17684 alt.religion.scientology:103730
misc.legal:137641 comp.org.eff.talk:62558
>Path:
netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyber
store.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.uc
algary.ca!bear.ras.ucalgary.ca!brad
>From: br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace )
>Newsgroups: co.general,alt.religion.scientology,misc.legal,comp.org.eff.talk
>Subject: Re: Denver Post Article on Co$ raid in Boulder, CO
>Date: 26 Aug 95 03:44:24 GMT
>Organization: The University of Calgary
>Lines: 40
>Distribution: inet
>Message-ID: <brad.80...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca>
>References: <Pine.LNX.3.91.95082...@eris.uchsc.edu>
<41h3ps$g...@natasha.rmii.com> <41k7hp$r...@news.Ieunet.ie>
<41kbt4$r...@panix.com> <41m17c$c...@panix.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: @bear.ras.ucalgary.ca
>Status: N

>
>anne...@panix.com (Anne) writes:
>
>>But wouldn't it follow that whatever property siezed should
>>be in the custody of the court, and not in the possession of
>>the plaintiff? They are siezing personal property, email, mail
>>lists, addresses, phone numbers, etc., to which they have no
>>right. Isn't this an invasion of privacy?
>
>It sounds to me more like a case of the law not being updated for
>the computer age. I ain't no steenkin' lawyer (Obligatory disclaimer) but....
>Back in the paper-age (as if computers don't spew more paper than any
>device created by mankind :^) a copyright violation was
>straight-forward e.g. a pile of illegally copied books, a printing press,
>that sorta thing. It was not likely that e.g. private mailing lists
>would be written down on these illegal copies, so the present problem was
>not an issue.

>
>Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into
>account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
>a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.
>
>My question is: If Lerma and the folks at FACTnet *expected* to
>get raided (FACTnet did, I can't see how Lerma thought otherwise), what the
>*fuck* were they doing with information on disk that they didn't want
>Co$ to see? They could have given these materials to their lawyers,
>put them in a safe deposit box somewhere, *something* to keep them out
>of the hands of the Co$.

The fact is, until August 15, the OT materials were a part of unsealed public
court records. Whether or not they were violating copyright to have that
material on disk is a pretty fuzzy issue.

Besides, all they wanted was to scare people. That's what they do. It's their
POLICY, as a matter of fact, to use frivolous legal action to intimidate their
critics. The clams are full of bluster.

My question is what is going to happen to the judge who so freely signed over
innocent peoples' most basic constitutional rights? I realize that he probably
was unaware of the criminal nature of the cult, but he didn't do his job.

I am now deeply concerned that the RTC is getting ready to distribute secret
copyrighted FACTNet materials to Usenet, based on their possession of said
material. Who will sign that warrant?

John Nagle

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) writes:
>Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into
>account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
>a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.

And it has been. There's the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, and the Privacy Protection Act of 1980 (Steve Jackson Games
collected from the Secret Service under that one).

There's also 18 USC 2235: "Whoever maliciously and without probable
cause procures a search warrant to be issued and executed, shall be fined
not more than $1000 or imprisoned not more than one year."

John Nagle

Alan Westrope

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 26 Aug 95, br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) wrote:

> My question is: If Lerma and the folks at FACTnet *expected* to
> get raided (FACTnet did, I can't see how Lerma thought otherwise), what the
> *fuck* were they doing with information on disk that they didn't want
> Co$ to see? They could have given these materials to their lawyers,
> put them in a safe deposit box somewhere, *something* to keep them out
> of the hands of the Co$.

Well, folks can (and do!) call me "Forrest Gump," but my question is:
Why didn't they simply encrypt this stuff with any of the freeware
programs available worldwide?!!? SFS, CFS, SecureDrive, SecureDevice,
PGP, all come to mind. PGP is credited by dissidents in Myanmar, El
Salvador, and Guatemala with saving lives, but appears to have been
ignored by these folks in Boulder County, Colorado, USA...go figure.

Sigh...

Alan Westrope <awes...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
__________/|-, <adwe...@ouray.cudenver.edu>
(_) \|-' 2.6.2 public key: finger / servers
PGP 0xB8359639: D6 89 74 03 77 C8 2D 43 7C CA 6D 57 29 25 69 23

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Version: 2.6.2

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20n7Cyf3NHzSLFbPdfV4pA/z+fBv9pr93OYhW07zHDhJ68O9yn0zKeHbCZfAy7iH
PcaPrIYU0mE=
=nBqb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Brad Wallace

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Aug 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/26/95
to
anne...@panix.com (Anne) writes:

>But wouldn't it follow that whatever property siezed should
>be in the custody of the court, and not in the possession of
>the plaintiff? They are siezing personal property, email, mail
>lists, addresses, phone numbers, etc., to which they have no
>right. Isn't this an invasion of privacy?

It sounds to me more like a case of the law not being updated for
the computer age. I ain't no steenkin' lawyer (Obligatory disclaimer) but....
Back in the paper-age (as if computers don't spew more paper than any
device created by mankind :^) a copyright violation was
straight-forward e.g. a pile of illegally copied books, a printing press,
that sorta thing. It was not likely that e.g. private mailing lists
would be written down on these illegal copies, so the present problem was
not an issue.

Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into


account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.

My question is: If Lerma and the folks at FACTnet *expected* to


get raided (FACTnet did, I can't see how Lerma thought otherwise), what the
*fuck* were they doing with information on disk that they didn't want
Co$ to see? They could have given these materials to their lawyers,
put them in a safe deposit box somewhere, *something* to keep them out
of the hands of the Co$.

Hey, wait a minute. Maybe I'm not giving them credit. Maybe they *did* keep
their list of sensitive addresses etc. off-site, but have a list of loyal
scientologists on disk instead. That way, when Co$ goes looking for people
to harass, they will be turning their attentions on people who thought that
Co$ was legit. Oooohhhhh... wouldn't *that* give some clams a nasty turn.
(well, a person can hope!)

-BRAD-
--
** Brad Wallace, Dept. of Physics and Astronomy, The University of Calgary **
** e-mail br...@ras.ucalgary.ca (alternate : wal...@acs.ucalgary.ca) **
** WWW http://bear.ras.ucalgary.ca/brads_home_page/ **

Nobody

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Aug 27, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/27/95
to
adwe...@ouray.cudenver.edu (Alan Westrope) wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On 26 Aug 95, br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) wrote:

>> My question is: If Lerma and the folks at FACTnet *expected* to
>> get raided (FACTnet did, I can't see how Lerma thought otherwise), what the
>> *fuck* were they doing with information on disk that they didn't want
>> Co$ to see? They could have given these materials to their lawyers,
>> put them in a safe deposit box somewhere, *something* to keep them out
>> of the hands of the Co$.

>Well, folks can (and do!) call me "Forrest Gump," but my question is:


>Why didn't they simply encrypt this stuff with any of the freeware
>programs available worldwide?!!? SFS, CFS, SecureDrive, SecureDevice,
>PGP, all come to mind. PGP is credited by dissidents in Myanmar, El
>Salvador, and Guatemala with saving lives, but appears to have been
>ignored by these folks in Boulder County, Colorado, USA...go figure.

Home of Phil Zimmerman, no less. Ah, but all of us are not that careless,
especially in the cults back yard -- Tampa Bay (for Sea Org anyway) - read
one of my other posts. I learned the value of Crypto a long time ago. I do
not use PGP here simply to give myself "plausible deniability" in addition
to the anonymity (minor) of bogus header info.

Mark Eckenwiler

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Aug 27, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/27/95
to
In <nagleDD...@netcom.com>, na...@netcom.com sez:

>br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) writes:
>>Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into
>>account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
>>a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.
>
> And it has been. There's the Electronic Communications Privacy
>Act, and the Privacy Protection Act of 1980 (Steve Jackson Games
>collected from the Secret Service under that one).

ACtually, SJG collected under both statutes.


> There's also 18 USC 2235: "Whoever maliciously and without probable
>cause procures a search warrant to be issued and executed, shall be fined
>not more than $1000 or imprisoned not more than one year."

But thia wasn't a search warrant; it was a civil writ of seizure. Big
difference.

William Barwell

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Aug 27, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/27/95
to
In article <nagleDD...@netcom.com>, John Nagle <na...@netcom.com> wrote:
>br...@bear.ras.ucalgary.ca ( Brad Wallace ) writes:
>>Sounds to me like the legl code needs to be re-written to take into
>>account the fact that material violating copyright may be contained on
>>a computer disk drive, along with lots of non-violating materials.
>
> And it has been. There's the Electronic Communications Privacy
>Act, and the Privacy Protection Act of 1980 (Steve Jackson Games
>collected from the Secret Service under that one).
>
> There's also 18 USC 2235: "Whoever maliciously and without probable
>cause procures a search warrant to be issued and executed, shall be fined
>not more than $1000 or imprisoned not more than one year."
>

That would make a great T-shirt to wear to a trial.


Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
Poor little clams! snap! Snap! Snap!
Poor little clams! snap! Snap! Snap!


Joe Francis

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to
Gordon Burditt, gor...@sneaky.lonestar.org writes:
>It sounds like a BAD mistake to let the plaintiff or his lawyer to
>get hold of seized material without a judge examining it first.
>Ever.

It also sounds like a bad mistake to let the proceeds from civil
forfeiture go to law enforcement. But we do it. Welcome to the
American way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe I have the right to speak any mathematics I want.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert A. Skiff

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to Anyone
Could some please provide an address where we can find out about the
locations of the September 9th protests?


Robert A. Skiff

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to lis...@netcom.com
Could you provide a post to this newsgroup of the locations of the
September 9th protest?


Scott Farrow

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to
In article <1995Aug24....@pvi.com>,
to...@pvi.com (todd) writes:

>Philip (ha...@rmii.com) wrote:
>: What seems scary to me is that this group seems to have this
>: special privilage of accompanying and aiding law officials. Can
>: any legal types out there tell us if this is indeed uncommon.

>That's not as scary as the part of the newspaper article


>that says that the stuff was just handed over to the
>Scientologists. If they committed a crime, isn't the
>evidence supposed to go in some protected locker some-
>where, not just given to the accuser?

[...]

I have seen exactly the same thing happen to a local business. In that
case, even backup tapes containing customer's files were taken. All it takes
is a lawyer and an allegation, then federal marshals will help you take
whatever you want.

- Scott

--
---------( I don't even work for HP. How could I speak for them? )----------
J. Scott Farrow - System Administrator - NSR Information Inc. (contractor)
Hewlett Packard Site Unix Services/Systems Engineering Software Division
3404 E. Harmony Road, MS 7 Fort Collins, CO USA, Internet: far...@fc.hp.com


Chris Yoder

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <41gcuj$7...@lace.Colorado.EDU>,
Scott Weiser <Scott....@colorado.edu> wrote:
:Whether or not the materials being distributed are copyrighted or

:are in the public domain, it is absolutely wrong for the Federal
:government to allow a private individual to search and seize
:someone's private papers. If it is to be done, it should be done
:by the police and the papers should be individually inspected by
:the court to see if they are pertinent, and the search of the disks
:should be by law enforcement as well.

The people raided never even got an inventory of what was taken.

[ For Public Key: finger ch...@eris.uchsc.edu ]

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--

+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Get the mail address from the headers! | Sabreur for NCF in Boulder |

+--Copyright 1995 by Chris Yoder -PGP via Finger | **Stop Scientolgy** |
| http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html for reasons!! |

Chris Yoder

unread,
Aug 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/28/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <ebohlmanD...@netcom.com>,
Eric Bohlman <eboh...@netcom.com> wrote:
:I'm sure he made the right decision to refuse the "replacement"
:computer. I strongly suspect that if he accepted it, someone would have
:called in an anonymous tip to law-enforcement agencies regarding a person
:with illegal material on his computer. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me
:if part of the "Jack B. Nimble" collection were on the "replacement" machine.

This is a very good point, however I doubt that was why the
replacement hard drive was refused.
ANother thing to keep in mind is that the Church (spit) of Sci
owed Wollershiem ~5 Million US$ from an earlier court decision. Imagine
that, party A owes party b 5 mill, but A still raids B. Could make for
an intesting day in court.


[ For Public Key: finger ch...@eris.uchsc.edu ]

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--

+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Get the mail address from the headers! | Sabreur for NCF in Boulder |

Steve

unread,
Aug 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/29/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Nagle (na...@netcom.com) wrote:
: There's also 18 USC 2235: "Whoever maliciously and without probable


: cause procures a search warrant to be issued and executed, shall be fined
: not more than $1000 or imprisoned not more than one year."

^^^^^

Sounds like something else that needs updating: it's going to be
worth $1000 bucks to the clams just to enturbulate the opposition a
bit. What should happen is a "three strikes and you're out" scheme:
if they maliciously procure 3 warrants, then they lose the right to
procure any more. Tough. ENd of story.

: John Nagle

- --
Steve

SP4 and clam cluster
KoX
JW #6800 (Surrey)
Enemy Surrey

- --poodlebait--OT7--zoo--Marcab-plant-gorilla-train-rollercoaster-RonArtist--
R#Urban's mum reads books. Shame it wasn't hereditary.
NEW WEB PAGE FOR UK CRITICS!!! Read it at:
http://www.demon.co.uk/castle/scientology.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any portions of copyrighted material quoted herein are used in the public
interest, and under applicable Fair Use provisions

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Ted Mayett

unread,
Aug 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/29/95
to
"Robert A. Skiff" <sk...@champlain.edu> wrote:
>Could you provide a post to this newsgroup of the locations of the
>September 9th protest?
>


Church of Scien Celebrity Centre L.V.
846 E. Sahara 1100 S. 10th
Las Vegas nv. 89104 L.V. Nv. 89104
702-731-1500 702-366-0818

I will be at one of these two locations.

The best way for me to get there is, Spring Mt. to Paradise.
Paradise to Sahara and then I hang a right.
COS is on the left. Or a left on 6th to get to the Celeb Cntr.

I am not sure what time I'll be there as I don't know the time of the
event yet. I'll post it when I know it.

I'll be easy to spot, the t-shirt might be here by then.
Also, I'll be carrying a picket sign.
--

=============================================
Ted Mayett

Dick Wilson

unread,
Aug 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/30/95
to
In article <41m17c$c...@panix.com>, anne...@panix.com (Anne) wrote:

> But wouldn't it follow that whatever property siezed should
> be in the custody of the court, and not in the possession of
> the plaintiff? They are siezing personal property, email, mail
> lists, addresses, phone numbers, etc., to which they have no
> right. Isn't this an invasion of privacy?
>

> Anne ... <anne...@panix.com>

The Cult of Scientology is not trying to stop the alleged copyright
violations. That's just their excuse for bamboozling judges.

They want to intimidate their critics (justice costs money, and they have
more money than anyone they bully through the legal system).

More importantly, they want the names, addresses (physical and email) and
phone numbers of FACTNet supporters.

= Dick =

Chris Yoder

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Aug 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/30/95
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <41m20d$kmk...@netcom.com>,
Elisabeth Higgins <lis...@netcom.com> wrote:
:A worldwide protest is scheduled for September 9th. Check a.r.s for details,

:and show up, unless, of course, you happen to be, oh, say, a CHICKEN-BUTTED
:SISSY OR SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For information about the Boulder Picketing, subscribe to the
maillist in my sig.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The Church of Scientolgy must be stopped, to find out why read the newsgroup|
|alt.religion.scientology, or web to The Scientolgy vs the Net Homepage at |
|http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html or for a local list |
|send subscribe in subject line to boulder-pic...@tali.uchsc.edu |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[ For Public Key: finger ch...@eris.uchsc.edu ]

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Steve A

unread,
Sep 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/11/95
to
ch...@eris.uchsc.edu (Chris Yoder) wrote:


> Does running an anti Co$ mailing list qualify me for SP status,
>and how do I go about getting the Co$ officially declare me.

Piss 'em off badly enough, and they might get round to it. Right now,
there's a big backlog of SP4 declares awaited from Kobrin, so don't
hold yer breath.

Steve: SP4 and Clam Cluster, KoX

NEW WEB PAGE FOR UK CRITICS!!! Read it at:
http://www.demon.co.uk/castle/scientology.html
-----

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