Jesse Prince Affidavit April 2002

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Deana Holmes

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May 2, 2002, 10:23:37 PM5/2/02
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This affidavit was provided to me by Dandar & Dandar and has been filed as
part of the court record. I don't know if it was signed May 1st or May 2nd.
I added what I believe are the approximate page numbers in brackets.

Deana M. Holmes
mir...@sonic.net

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, STATE OF FLORIDA
GENERAL CIVIL DIVISION


ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and Case No. 00-5682-C1
through the Personal Representative, Section 11
DELL LIEBREICH
Plaintiff,
vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.;
JANIS JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI;
and DAVID HOUGHTON,
Defendants.
_________________________________/

APRIL 2002 AFFIDAVIT OF JESSE PRINCE
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, personally appeared JESSE
PRINCE, who after being duly sworn by me, deposes and says:

I, JESSE PRINCE, provide the following information which is based on
my personal knowledge:

1. Affiant had been retained as the expert on the practices of
Scientology by the ESTATE OF LISA MCPHERSON.

2. From 1982-1987, I served as a corporate officer, executive, and
board
member of Scientology's Religious Technology Center (RTC). RTC owns the
trademarks

[page 1]

of Scientology and licenses all Scientology organizations to use its
trademarks. RTC licenses all Scientology organizations to use Scientology
trademark material. RTC is also the senior corporate entity of all
Scientology or Scientology related organizations internationally.

3. Affiant has been a friend and confidant of Bob Minton for many
years, the trial expert on Scientology for Ken Dandar in the Lisa McPherson
death case, and the Vice President of the Lisa McPherson Trust, an
organization which was dedicated to exposing the deceptive and abusive of
Scientology and helping those who have been victimized by Scientology.

4. Affiant was picketing at the Boston Org of Scientology years ago
with Bob Minton. At this picket and in my presence, members of
Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and relayed
detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist. This
greatly concerned Bob because his psychiatrist's information was strictly
confidential. Bob Minton acts irrational when not on his medication.
Bob's psychiatrist then discharged Bob as his patient when Bob confronted
the psychiatrist.

5. Sometime after this picket, I observed that Scientology posted
on the Internet Bob Minton's confidential psychological records.

6. Bob Minton also relayed to affiant that Scientology obtained his
bank records and telephone records, which he said caused him great
distress.

7. Due to the continuous harassment of Bob Minton by Scientology
and its operatives, I personally observed Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks begin
a compilation of a timeline of Scientology attacks and noisy investigations
of Bob Minton per Scientology practices.

8. At the request of Bob Minton, affiant traveled to the office of
Ken Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken Dandar that if Ken could get
the Internet critics of Bob Minton to stop posting criticism of Bob and if
Ken would quit meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob would try to arrange to
have his friends loan additional funds to Ken Dandar. Bob had told the
affiant that he was still willing to help finance the case so that

[page 2]

it would go to trial.
9. On or around March 20, 2002, affiant called Mr. Minton at his
home in NH to see how he was doing. Affiant learned from Mr. Minton that
Scientology operatives had discovered information about him that threatened
his wife and children's future and Mr. Minton was very sad and upset about
this. Mr. Minton said he no longer felt like living. He just felt like
killing himself and things were really bad. Mr. Minton was crying as he
told me these things. I asked him if there was anything I could do to help
him and what specifically was the new threat. Mr. Minton told me he did not
feel safe discussing the information over the phone and he was too upset to
even talk about it. He told me that Stacy Brooks was leaving Atlanta, GA
and flying to NH to help him with this new attack. I told him if there was
nothing I could do to help him I would at least pray for him. After talking
with Mr. Minton I immediately called Stacy Brooks to see if she would give
me more information. Stacy said Bob was in really bad shape. Due to the
harrassive discovery by Scientology of Mr. Minton, he was about to fall
apart. Stacy said she had to get Bob out of harms way and end his
participation in opposing Scientology. Stacy said that no one including the
Florida courts or law enforcement had been willing to help stop
Scientology's relentless attack on Bob and she was putting an end to any
and all liability for Bob. Stacy swore that she would protect Bob no matter
what. She did in fact arrive in NH on the same day in question to help Bob.
The next day after Stacy arrived in NH, I called to check and see how
things were going. I talked to Bob and he told me he was going to contact
Mike Rinder, who is the top executive of Scientology's legal and
intelligence activities to see if he could work out a deal. Mr. Minton said
he felt like he had no other choice but to take this action of trying to
negotiate with Mr. Rinder. Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks have in the past
successfully ended a lawsuit with Scientology, that ended with both parties
being pleased with the results. I asked Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks to be
careful and to keep me informed of any progress. The next time I talked to
Bob and Stacy was on or around 23 March 2002. Bob told me that he had made
the call to Mike Rinder, and the bottom line was Scientology was going to
put him in jail. Bob said there was a problem with some checks he had given
to

[page 3]

Ken Dandar. After his talk with Mike Rinder, Bob said it boiled down to
who was going to live, him or Ken Dandar, but someone was going to die. He
said he called Ken and begged him to drop the wrongful death lawsuit at the
demand of Michael Rinder, but Ken refused saying he had an obligation to
his client Dell Liebreich. I told Bob that while I did not understand how
his life would end unless he chose for Ken to die, I advised him to choose
life, and I reminded him of his own family and how they needed him. Bob
told me he was going to NY with Stacy Brooks to meet with Mike Rinder the
following Friday. Thursday of the following week, Stacy and Bob flew to NY
and called me when they arrived. Bob's attorney Steve Jonas was also flying
in for the meeting set for the next day. Bob and Stacy promised to call me
after the meeting with Mr. Rinder. The next day at around noon time Stacy
called me and she was very upset. She said that Mr. Rosen screamed at her
and Bob that Bob was going to jail for contempt in front of judge Schaeffer
and he was also going to jail for perjury in front of Judge Baird. Mr.
Rosen also said that unless the wrongful death lawsuit and the Wollershiem
lawsuit were dismissed Bob was going to jail. Bob told me how Mr. Rinder
coldly told Bob Minton that he knew was f__king him, but at least he was
doing it to him to his face. Bob went on to tell me Mr. Rinder went on to
say that other people who were suppose to be his friends were F__king him
behind his back: Ken Dandar, Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander were
mentioned specifically. Bob told me that Mr. Sandy Rosen or Mr. Rinder, I
do not remember which one, told Bob that he is crazy if he thinks Ken
Dandar will ever see any money even if he wins. The same person said to
take the Wollersheim case as an example. Mr. Rosen told Bob that the only
way he would not go to jail is if he got the wrongful death case dismissed
along with the Wollersheim case. Both Stacy and Bob said they tried to
explain the fact that they had no power or authority to get these cases
dismissed. They told Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen that they had earlier tried
to get Ken to get Dell Liebreich to drop the case but they flat out
refused. The response was "too bad, because Bob was going to jail." Stacy
said that both Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen were being very nasty to them both
and Bob and Stacy got up and walked out of the meeting because it was
horrible. Bob and Stacy took the next plane

[page 4]

home and were back in NH by 7:00PM the same day. Both Stacy and Bob called
me when they got back to NH and expressed to me how deeply disappointed
they were about not being able to reconcile anything with Scientology and
they were putting the whole idea of negotiations with them on the back
burner for now.

10. The next day, late in the afternoon I talked to Stacy on the
phone and she told me that Mike Rinder called and said he really didn't
understand why Bob and Stacy walked out of the meeting. She went on to say
that Mr. Rinder said that he understood that Bob and Stacy could not
dismiss the wrongful death suit and the Wollersheim case in CA, but there
were things Stacy and Bob could do. I asked what were the things they could
do, and Stacy said she did not know but they were going to meet with Mr.
Rinder and company again in Clearwater a day or so before the contempt
hearing on Bob Minton in front of judge Schaeffer on 5 April, 02. Stacy was
happy about being able to negotiate with Scientology and reaffirmed to me
that she was getting Bob out of the Scientology mess before it killed him.
Bob was very nervous about coming back to Clearwater and he expressed that
he felt like he was going to jail if he came back to Clearwater.

11. Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton and Mark Bunker arrived in Clearwater
FL, from NH on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 02. Bob and Stacy got a room at the
Harbor Bay Hotel in Tampa, FL and Mark Bunker stayed at my house in
Clearwater FL. The following day, Stacy and Bob went to meet with Mike
Rinder, Sandy Rosen, and Monique Yingling at a restaurant in the Belleview
Biltmore Hotel. After the meeting was over, Stacy called me and I asked her
how the meeting went. She said she thought they made progress and things
were going to be okay. I asked her specifically what were the "things that
could be done" that would make Scientology stop trying to put Bob in jail.
She told me she would tell me when she saw me but Ken Dandar was not going
to be happy. Bob got on the phone and said Stacy was a lot more optimistic
about what was happening and he was still worried about going to jail. Bob
and Stacy had a very busy schedule meeting with Mr. Bruce Howie and Mr.
Steve Jonas preparing for the contempt hearing with judge Schaeffer. Stacy
and Bob asked that I not come to the hearing and she would brief me on what
happened when

[page 5]

it was over.

12. After the hearing on 5 April, 02, Bob and Stacy called and
they were satisfied with the results of the hearing. Both said that Bruce
Howie was brilliant and Bob got off on the contempt due to a technical
error made by Mr. Kendrick Moxon. They were very happy about this and
invited me, and 3 other staff members that worked at the LMT out to dinner
at Jackson's restaurant located in the hotel they were staying at. Before
dinner we met in the lounge/bar area at the hotel and talked about the
hearing. Bob was still concerned and said Scientology had filed another
suit where he was named as a defendant. He pulled the suit out and showed
us what it was. It was a suit against Jerry Armstrong and Bob Minton. The
suit alleged that Jerry Armstrong had broken his settlement agreement with
Scientology multiple times and some how Bob had enabled and encouraged
Jerry to do this. In the end, the suit asked for 80 million dollars in
damages. Bob commented on the fact that Jerry had no money and he was sure
Scientology would force him to defend himself in the suit and pay any
judgments as a result. He gave me a copy of the suit to look at and I
pointed out that according to what I was reading, Scientology alleged Bob
co-conspired with Jerry Armstrong to violate his settlement with
Scientology before Bob ever knew or met Jerry Armstrong. I told him the
suit was crap. Bob's retort was Scientology does a lot of crap and gets
away with it and they would get away with this suit as well. Another
person, Ingrid Wagner, read the suit and agreed with Bob that it was not
crap and Bob should be concerned. We talked about the next hearing and
deposition with judge Baird that was scheduled for 8 and 9 April, 02 and
had a nice dinner. For the next few days, Bob and Stacy continued to have
meetings with Mike Rinder and company and both started to reveal to me what
Scientology wanted them to do. The bottom line was Scientology wanted Bob
to say that Ken Dandar caused Bob Minton to perjure himself in the breach
of contract case in front of Judge Baird. The plan was to get Ken removed
from the wrongful death case and get disbarred as an attorney. I asked Bob
what has Ken done to deserve that? Stacy cut in and asked me if I
remembered a meeting that supposedly happened in the early fall of 1999.
Stacy said she and I were at a meeting along with Bob

[page 6]

Minton, Michael Garko and Ken Dandar when Ken announced that he was adding
David Miscavige as a party in the wrongful death case. As Bob was not
involved in the case, Ken told him if he were ever asked, the meeting never
occurred. She asked me if I remembered that and I said I did not. Bob said
"Jesse, we need you to walk with us on this", I said I would stand behind
him but the meeting never happened and I was not going to lie about it. I
told both Stacy and Bob that there was no way the case was going to be
thrown out by trying to get rid of Ken. I told them that they were working
with criminals who are accusing others of doing criminal acts. Bob said he
felt horrible about what he was asked to do against Ken and he was not sure
it was the right thing to do because it felt so wrong. At one point he
read a letter that Ken had recently sent him which mentioned Ken having the
blood of Bob's wife and children on his hands if he did not get the
wrongful death suit dismissed. I asked both Stacy and Bob what else
Scientology wanted them to do to avoid going to jail. Bob replied there
was a lot more Scientology wanted him to do but he did not know when
Scientology would be done with him. Stacy and Bob had been working on a
reply to Ken's letter and Bob asked Stacy to read me the reply. I started
to feel sick as she read the response but one point really caught my
attention: the point was that Bob alleged in the letter that I had given
false testimony because Ken Dandar had manipulated me to write that David
Miscavige knew about Lisa's condition and instead of letting her be taken
to a hospital he let her die because of the public relations flap it would
cause. I told both Bob and Stacy there was no manipulation of me by Ken and
my testimony is true so don't say that in the letter. Detailed evidence by
Scientology's own policies commands its adherents to immediately report to
RTC ANYONE who has gone psychotic as a result of Scientology's
psychological practices. David Miscavige was and still is the Senior
executive in RTC and has full knowledge of information sent to his
organization. Stacy said the letter was just a draft and they were letting
me see it to get my input. The letter was being drafted with Mr. Rosen and
Mr. Rinders help. Bob laughed and said another thing he had offered
Scientology as part of the settlement negotiations was to turn over my
partnership in the film "The Profit" so Peter and Patricia would have to
deal with Scientology on the

[page 7]

film. I changed the subject and asked what about the Wollersheim case?
Stacy informed me that she had talked to Dan Liepold, the attorney, and
asked him to remove her testimony from the case. Dan refused to do it but
Stacy said she would deal with that after they finished doing what
Scientology wanted them to do in the wrongful death case. She explained
that there were three witnesses for the plaintiff concerning alter ego.
The witnesses are Stacy Brook, Vaughn Young and myself. I told her I had no
intentions of asking for my testimony to be removed from the case for
Scientology and we left it at that. The following Monday arrived and Bob
was to be deposed by Sandy Rosen. After the deposition Stacy called me and
briefed me on what happened in the deposition. She told me Bob was being
deposed and she heard him tell a lie. Stacy said she had Mr. Howie stop the
deposition so that she could clear up what Bob had just said. Stacy said
she told Bob not to lie again and to go in and correct the record. She said
when Bob went back into deposition he just broke down and started to cry
uncontrollably. At that point the deposition was stopped and Mr. Rosen
assured Bob that the record would be corrected later. The next day was the
hearing for contempt in front of Judge Baird. Bob and Stacy had been
meeting with Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen to prepare Bob for his testimony. Bob
and Stacy asked me to be at the hearing. They told me Bob was going to
testify against Ken. I told them I couldn't believe things had degraded to
this level. Bob said he still did not feel good about what he was about to
do and felt it was wrong. Stacy said they had to stay on this road and get
through this. Bob told me that Sandy Rosen assured him that if he
implicated Ken with his testimony that Scientology would withdraw the
contempt motion and ask that all fines be dropped. Stacy and Bob asked that
I attend the hearing, I told them I would be there. Monday came, and I sat
in Judge Baird's court room waiting for the proceedings to start. Bob got
up on the stand and when he started saying Ken made him lie I got up and
walked out of the court room. I felt like I'd been struck by lightning, and
I started to cry. For the life of me I could not believe what I had just
seen. Bob lying about Ken Dandar? Mr. Rosen now acting on Bob's behalf? I
knew I had to do something but I didn't know what. I drove to the beach to
think. I decided that I had to somehow get law enforcement involved

[page 8]

or I could lose my friends forever. I left the beach and went to see
attorney Denis DeVlaming. I told him I just saw Bob Minton up on the stand
lying about Ken Dandar because that's what Scientology wanted him to do. I
poured my heart out to him told him everything that had happened and asked
him if there was any way he could put me in contact with a federal agent
that could investigate this and take the matter to a federal court. I told
him I have to do something to help my friends. Denis said that I had been
his client as well Bob Minton and there could be a conflict of interest, as
Bob may need his help later. He told me his brother Doug DeVlaming knew
someone in the FBI that might be interested in investigating possible
blackmail and coercion. I explained the situation to Doug and he said he
would contact someone, and for me to call him later. I left Mr. DeVlaming's
office and went out and rented a hotel room. I did not want to see Bob or
Stacy and I knew they would be looking for me. I called my girlfriend and
told her what happened and that I did not want to talk with Bob or Stacy
until they were back at home. Bob and Stacy looked for me everywhere
calling hospitals and checking with the police. My girlfriend gave them the
message that I was very upset and I would contact them after they arrived
back to NH. They calmed down and the next day Bob, Stacy and Mark left
Clearwater, headed for NH.

13. The next day I was in telephone communication with Bob and
Stacy. They wanted to know why I walked out of the hearing and what was
wrong. I told them I could not believe what I had seen Bob do and it upset
me greatly. I told them Scientology was making a fool out of them in my
opinion. Stacy said the reason I felt that way was because I did not have
all of the information. She said I had been left in the dark about some
things that both her and Bob were not able to talk about because they had
signed a non-disclosure agreement with Scientology concerning the
settlement talk and it was time they brought me into the picture. She said
it was time for me to start meeting with Scientology and their attorneys. I
told her I was ready to start understanding what was going on. Stacy told
me that she and Bob would be back in Clearwater on 12 April, 02 and we
would meet and they would bring me into the picture fully. They arrived
late that Friday, we talked on

[page 9]

the phone, and agreed to meet the following Saturday at 8:00PM for dinner
at the Adams Mark hotel on Clearwater Beach. Stacy told me that she and Bob
were meeting with Michael Garko Saturday afternoon. She mentioned that
Michael was upset with Ken because Ken had not paid Michael since September
of 01. I arrived at the hotel on time, Stacy met me in the lobby and we
went to a room on the 9th floor where Bob was. We made small talk and Bob
told me he had something to show me. He pulled out a stack of paper at
least 2 inches thick and gave it to me. What he had given me was a RICO
suit Scientology had put together that named him as a defendant. At the end
of the suit it asked for 110 million in damages. Bob said, "So Jesse how
much is that now? The recently filed Armstrong suit asked for 80 million,
this new RICO suit wants 110 million in damages so that's 190 million they
want, plus they're adding me as a defendant in the breach of contract
cases. The only person that has money is me so it is me that will end up
paying for all of this and I just can't do it. I can't fight them anymore".
He went on to say that he needed me to stand with him and Stacy on this to
pull it off. I pretended like I agreed with him and asked when would I be
able to meet with the Scientologist. Stacy said tomorrow but we have to go
over some things first. Bob said what was needed from me was to change my
testimony. As he was talking the phone rang. Someone was asking where a
package should be delivered. Bob told the person where he was and he asked
the person to leave the package a the front desk and he would pick it up
later and he hung up the phone. I asked him what that was all about and he
said Scientology had been talking with him and wanted him to change more
testimony so as to implicate Ken further. He said the package was
approximately 11 inches of testimony he had given before and some of it
needed to be changed. I told him I don't know what I'm suppose to change in
my testimony because I told the truth when I gave it the first time. I
asked how the meeting went with Michael Garko and Stacy said really good.
She said Michael Garko said he knew the how much the case had cost to put
on to date and there was no way Ken had spent 2 million dollars. Bob said
Mr. Garko said he thought Ken had put the money in an account in the Cayman
Islands. Stacy and Bob told me how upset Dr. Garko was over not being paid
and

[page 10]

he was going to help Bob and Stacy get Ken. I looked at both of them like
they were insane. I reminded them of an incident that happened in August of
01 where Bob said the case was costing too much and Ken had to cut cost.
Part of the cost cutting was to not pay Mr. Garko until the case was over.
Bob invited me and Stacy Brooks to the top level of a parking structure
directly across the street from the LMT to make sure there was no illegal
surveillance going on and he said Ken is getting $500.000 and that was all
he was going to get and it was a big secret and we were not to tell anyone
about it. I asked them why they were both acting like they didn't know Dr.
Garko had not been paid. They didn't have anything to say. We started
talking about how they were going to get the Wollersheim case dismissed.
Bob said that he had had a conversation with Dan Leipold about getting the
case dismissed and Mr. Leipold stated that he could not do that because he
had an obligation to this client. Bob was upset that Daniel Leipold would
not agree to getting the case dismissed because he had loaned him money
before. Bob then told me that he offered Lawrence Wollersheim, the
Plaintiff in a California case against Church of Scientology, $200,000.00
of his own personal money to drop the case. I asked Bob and Stacy, how is
it if you are in settlement negotiations with Scientology where you are
trying to settle cases where you are neither Plaintiff or Defendant? I
reminded them of a mandatory settlement conference that was scheduled to
take place on the 19th of April. Stacy commented that she did not think
that settlement conference would occur because Bruce Howie and Lee Fugate
had met with Judge Schaeffer and briefed her on the information that came
up on Ken in front of Judge Baird and that Ken would be disqualified. I
asked if Ken Dandar was present when Judge Schaeffer was being briefed by
Mr. Howie and Mr. Fugate and Stacy said no. I told her at that point that
they were on very dangerous grounds and reminded Stacy of an incident
whereby I was interrogated by the FBI for five to six hours because I had
been in a meeting with David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock and Marty Rathbun
along with Earl Cooley where we discussed having a Scientology staff member
take a motion to Judge Maryanne Fauscher to get a temporary injunction
against David Mayo. I told her that I learned that it was against the
rules for

[page 11]

attorneys to make ex-parte contact with the Judge of record without having
the attorney of record present. Both Bob and Stacy looked at me
dumbfounded and Stacy commented that she did not think that what they had
done was a problem. On that note we went down and had dinner and made
small talk the rest of the evening. Bob did repeat that he needed me to
walk with them on this, I said I would.

14. When I left Stacy and Bob that night I was shaking so badly I
could hardly drive home and I had no idea what I was going to do to stop
what was happening. I called a friend named Frank Oliver and asked him to
have Ken Dandar call me as I had something to tell him. Ken called and I
told him I knew that Bob was lying in court about Ken because this is what
Scientology wanted him to do to stop the harassment and law suits. We
agreed to meet at the International Mall in Tampa Florida for a meeting.
He asked me if it was okay if Mr. Luke Lirot and Mr. Thom Haverty came, I
told him yes. We all met in the mall and went to a lounge and I told only
Ken everything that had been going on and I told him I could not live with
what was going on. He thanked me for coming to him and told me how sad this
whole thing was making him and how he could not believe it was happening. I
hand wrote some of the details of what had been happening and signed it,
see attached copy. I told Ken I was willing to testify about what was
really going on. Ken said he was going to talk to law enforcement to try
and save Bob and get him away from Scientology. I told Ken I was having a
meeting with Bob and Stacy again and this time I was to be fully brought in
and I would get a chance to talk to the Scientologist myself. I told him
the only reason I was going to the meeting was to see the expression on
Mike Rinder's face when I tell them that I contacted law enforcement the
day Bob lied and that other people knew what was really going on.
15. Later that Sunday evening I met with Stacy and Bob at the
Radisson hotel on Bellaire Beach. They were staying in room 502. When I got
up there Bob had a stack of papers in is hand and said he had something he
had to show me. He read something that was totally incomprehensible to me
and said that what this means is judge Schaeffer did not trust me as a
witness and there was nothing I could do to help Ken with the wrongful

[page 12]

death case. He said unless I change my testimony, Judge Schaeffer was going
to put me in jail. Things got a bit heated between Bob and me because I
told him I had no testimony that I needed to change. Stacy suggested that
we all go downstairs for dinner and continue the conversation. When we got
downstairs I mentioned that we had talked enough together and it was time I
sat down and met with the Scientologist. Bob said no, I was not ready for
that because I needed to walk with he and Stacy down this road first. At
that point I realized I was not going to see a Scientologist that night so
I had better try to say or do something to get my friends to stop lying for
Scientology. I told them of two specific instances of when I had agreed to
negotiate with Scientology but they never ever held up their end of the
bargain and each time my life was ruined by them anyway. I told them I
thought they were negotiating with the devil. I reminded them about the
secretary of a Scientology private investigator named John Porter calling
me and I put her in touch with Ray Emmons because she said she was in
meetings with Mr. Porter and Scientology people where they planned months
before in great detail how they were going to get me busted for marijuana.
She even told me how they planned on planting seeds in my back yard. This
information had been given to Bob when I found out about it. I was not the
person who discussed what the secretary said, Mr. Ray Emmons did. Bob
Minton was the one who told me about them putting the seeds on my back
porch. I told them they were making a big mistake. Bob told me that I was
the one making a mistake but if I walked down this road with them they
would hire an attorney for me and everything would be okay. Both he and
Stacy Brooks told me of a new life where we would all live in happiness and
prosperity. I exploded at that point and told them the truth. I told them
from the very beginning when Bob started to lie I called law enforcement
and told them the whole story. I told them they were the ones who were
screwed. Bob told me I was going to jail and I should leave, and I did. My
two best friends have been backed into a corner due to the unlawful
discovery practices of Scientology which was allowed to go on and on by the
lower courts. The fact that there has been plenty of illegal discovery
allowed into Mr. Minton, the LMT and Mr. Dandar on financial matters has
been acknowledged by the

[page 13]

appeals courts only recently. In effect, if the law had been correctly
interpreted and applied these matters would have never been an issue. As
a result, my friends are being blackmailed and coerced and are now lying
for Scientology with the hope of getting Scientology out of their lives
forever. I invite the court to look at the introduction to the "harassment
time track" authored by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks and reconcile what was
written then against what they are doing now and have mercy on them both.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NOT.

_______________________________
JESSE PRINCE


BEFORE ME, personally appeared JESSE PRINCE, to me well known to be
the person described in and who executed the foregoing instrument and who
acknowledged having executed same for the uses and purposes therein set
forth.

WITNESS my hand and official seal at ________________ Florida, this
____ day of May, 2002.


___________________________________
NOTARY PUBLIC
My commission expires:


______
J.P.

[page 14]

Deana Holmes

unread,
May 2, 2002, 11:17:13 PM5/2/02
to
The affidavit is webbed here (no griping about crummy html, I have a
headache!):

http://www.lisamcpherson.com/jesse4-02affi.html

Deana Holmes
mir...@sonic.net

ewsnead

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May 3, 2002, 12:17:27 AM5/3/02
to

Deana Holmes wrote in message ...


>This affidavit was provided to me by Dandar & Dandar and has been filed as
>part of the court record. I don't know if it was signed May 1st or May 2nd.
>I added what I believe are the approximate page numbers in brackets.
>
>Deana M. Holmes
>mir...@sonic.net

Thank you for posting Jesse's affidavit. I trust Jesse, and this clarifies a
lot.

I cannot even begin to describe my sorrow for Bob, Stacy, Jesse, as well as
Ken Dandar.

Nor can I adequately express my rage.

e

Levi Murphy

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May 3, 2002, 1:46:34 AM5/3/02
to

Sounds like Jessie is telling the truth.

LOGIC18


On Fri, 03 May 2002 02:23:37 GMT, Deana Holmes <mir...@sonic.net>
wrote:

Feisty

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May 3, 2002, 2:08:44 AM5/3/02
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ewsnead <erik....@gte.net> wrote in message
news:rboA8.33269$iJ.2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

I share this sentiment.

Jesse's affadavit is a plea for justice.

Is there any chance that the judge inquire
about the statements Jesse made?

Justice cannot be adequetely judged by coercing people.

The pattern of $cientology desperation through inflicted fear, coercion and
deception becomes more visible each day.

$cientology is evil.

Thanks Jesse, for doing it right.
I truly hope the court and other law
enforcement agencies take your
words to heart. Those words speak
for many and make sense as the horrid
truth.

Feisty

>
> e
>
>
>


roger gonnet

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May 3, 2002, 2:40:21 AM5/3/02
to

"ewsnead" <erik....@gte.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
rboA8.33269$iJ.2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

and since Deana was not specially true those times, I'm waiting for Jessie
to consolidate my opinions. You know, not being enough paranoïd costed Bob
and Stacy a lot.

So, the motto is: "when dealing with scientology, better be too paranoïd
than not enough."

And now, I'll advice Bob and Stacy and the families to come to Eyurope. My
gawd, despite the rain, I'd like hundred times more living into Scotland
than in polluted Florida. Or, despite frenchies, I'd like much more to live
in France than in this country where the more one is dangerous and full of
stolen money, the more corrupt one is, the more one can get profits from
justice.

I'm overtly calling american citizens to protest against their system of
justice and to get it changed.


roger

roger


Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Phil Scott

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May 3, 2002, 3:24:35 AM5/3/02
to

Sounds like Jesse is telling the truth to me too... and given Bobs circumstances
all around, his health, and the cult targeting all of his assets, I dont think
it reflects nearly as badly on Bob as it does on the completely RUTHLESS cult if
scientology.

Further more I think the court will see this and put the Lisa McPerson murder
case to the jury. and I think there may well be a later case against the
criminal cult for its blackmailing activity.

One thing for sure the world is watching this snake spit its venom and that
image will remain regardless. Scientology has become now a world wide pariah.
I hope the law school professors are taking note, and the journalists, and the
rest of the judiciary in America...our future freedoms ride on this sort of
ruthlessness being exposed, its tactics noted, and eliminated.

Phil Scott
(415) 927 7573

Tommy

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May 3, 2002, 6:57:29 AM5/3/02
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"Trilateral Union" <Trilater...@soundwaves.merseine.nu> wrote in
message news:rqi4du8moq3g4emq3...@Trilateral.Union...
> On Fri, 03 May 2002 04:17:27 GMT.
> In the Newsgroup(s): alt.religion.scientology
> With the Message-ID: <rboA8.33269$iJ.2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>
> And the Organization Header: .
> The famous author: "ewsnead" <erik....@gte.net>.
> Wrote on the subject: Re: Jesse Prince Affidavit April 2002:
> Jesse is a drunken maniac, an alcoholic, and a drug addict in general.
> He isn't to be trusted either. Bob Stacy and Jesse, is the same filth.
>
>


"Is" they, you illiterate shithead?
Feel free to piss on an electric fence.


Tommy

--
"If people get in your way,
they need to be dealt with one way or another."

Jeff Quiros, Scientology spokesman


ptsc

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May 3, 2002, 6:58:50 AM5/3/02
to
On Fri, 03 May 2002 02:23:37 GMT, Deana Holmes <mir...@sonic.net> wrote:

I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Jesse Prince for being
the one person directly involved in all this mess who has shown the
guts to REALLY come clean.

ptsc

unread,
May 3, 2002, 7:00:19 AM5/3/02
to
On Fri, 03 May 2002 10:34:36 +0200, Trilateral Union
<Trilater...@soundwaves.merseine.nu> wrote:

>Jesse is a drunken maniac, an alcoholic, and a drug addict in general.
>He isn't to be trusted either. Bob Stacy and Jesse, is the same filth.

And Sten-Arne Zerpe is a Swedish troll!

ptsc

Deana Holmes

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May 3, 2002, 9:21:18 AM5/3/02
to
"roger gonnet" <roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote in
news:aatf7u$joq$1...@news4.isdnet.net:

> and since Deana was not specially true those times, I'm waiting for
> Jessie to consolidate my opinions. You know, not being enough paranoïd
> costed Bob and Stacy a lot.

That's Jesse's affidavit. I got it directly from Ken Dandar.

You keep telling me that I told lies. I want to hear what those lies are.

Frankly, Roger, I think you keep telling yourself that these things can't
be true because you believe (with no evidence) that the messenger is a
liar. You've got to stop doing that, otherwise you'll believe anything just
because you put up screens against the truth.

Deana M. Holmes
mir...@sonic.net

Starshadow

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May 3, 2002, 9:26:28 AM5/3/02
to

Trilateral Union wrote:

> On Fri, 03 May 2002 04:17:27 GMT.
> In the Newsgroup(s): alt.religion.scientology
> With the Message-ID: <rboA8.33269$iJ.2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>
> And the Organization Header: .
> The famous author: "ewsnead" <erik....@gte.net>.
> Wrote on the subject: Re: Jesse Prince Affidavit April 2002:
>
>
>>

> Jesse is a drunken maniac, an alcoholic, and a drug addict in general.
> He isn't to be trusted either. Bob Stacy and Jesse, is the same filth.
>
>

And your anonymous "opinion" would matter exactly how?

FOAD, asshole. Do it today!

--


Bright Blessings,

Starshadow, KoX, SP5, Official Wiccan Chaplain ARSCC(wdne)
"Scientology--Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Cult"
www.xenu.net

Starshadow

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May 3, 2002, 9:27:57 AM5/3/02
to

ptsc wrote:

Ah, fuck, and he caught me, before coffee.

Score one for you, Sten.

Go ahead. Laugh. You deserve a little fun.

Ed

unread,
May 3, 2002, 10:20:24 AM5/3/02
to

Hah, I also suspected this a couple of days ago, but didn't
want to spoil his fun.

Ed

Ed

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May 3, 2002, 10:26:09 AM5/3/02
to

Deana Holmes wrote:
>
> This affidavit was provided to me by Dandar & Dandar and has been filed as
> part of the court record. I don't know if it was signed May 1st or May 2nd.
> I added what I believe are the approximate page numbers in brackets.
>
> Deana M. Holmes
> mir...@sonic.net
>

[affidavit of Jesse Prince snipped]

Thank you. This is about the only single piece of good news I have
seen lately from Florida. It is good news because it has the clear
ring of truth and trumps in every way the Co$-forced falsehoods, past,
present and future, which Bob and Stacy may produce. Truth does always
eventually win out.

Ed

Baba ROM DOS

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May 3, 2002, 11:48:12 AM5/3/02
to
While I'm seeing responses to this like "I trust
Jesse", "Sounds like Jesse is telling the truth", etc.,
I would point out that a lot of people also responded
to Bob's initial, less blatant round of Scientology[tm]
perjury with similar statements of confidence. And
that Jesse has been known to bullshit at least as much
as Bob and Stacy in the past.

His statement *does* ring more true than Bobs'.
It even sounds like Jesse might have written it, unlike
Bob's more recent depositions which look to have
been written by a "Church" attorney. But we should
no more run off brandishing this as Revealed Truth than
we should call Bob's depositions "finally coming clean".

Does anyone with a personal knowledge of the facts
involved have *any* information that would contradict
what Jesse says here? Specifically, I'd be interested in
Mark Bunker's comments (not that I would necessarily
take them on faith either). Mark, did things happen as
Jesse says in early April? What, if any, specific facts
of which you have personal knowledge does Jesse have
wrong here?

Though oddly enough, Mark seems to be taking a break
from a.r.s. since the latest round of affidavits came out.
Almost to the minute, as a matter of fact...

Brian James

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May 3, 2002, 12:18:47 PM5/3/02
to
ptsc <ptsc AT nym DOT cryptofortress DOT com> wrote in message news:<g9r4du802c6oflbla...@4ax.com>...

> On Fri, 03 May 2002 02:23:37 GMT, Deana Holmes <mir...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Jesse Prince for being
> the one person directly involved in all this mess who has shown the
> guts to REALLY come clean.

I agree. I had the opportunity to spend a day with Jesse during a
brief visit to Florida, and he strikes me as an honest, caring guy
that's truly concerned for others. I consider him a friend, and I
believe him. I just hope that in the end Bob, Stacy and Jesse can
remain close friends.

Brian James

Mike O'Connor

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May 3, 2002, 12:18:19 PM5/3/02
to
In article <Xns9202C5DBFB32...@208.201.224.154>,
Deana Holmes <mir...@sonic.net> wrote:

> APRIL 2002 AFFIDAVIT OF JESSE PRINCE

[...]

Finally some truth.

I think there have been a number of times when it could be seen that Mr.
Minton didn't really understand what lengths the cult goes to when it
wants to ruin someone utterly. But I'm suprised Ms. Brooks didn't get
it. Very suprised. Here are some of my reactions and (mere) personal
opinions and speculation.


> This greatly concerned Bob because his psychiatrist's information
> was strictly confidential. Bob Minton acts irrational when not on
> his medication.

[...]

If this is true, I'd want to look carefully into Mr. Minton's
medication-taking history. Was he taking these medications on the
prescribed schedule? Were the pills he was taking actually the
prescribed medications at the prescribed strength? Mr. Prince describes
several breakdowns. Hopefully they weren't nudged along via knowing or
unknowing lack of medication. The cult has a well-known 'thing' about
such medicines, I wouldn't put anything past them.


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough,
rough on attackers all the way.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
HCOPL 25 Feb 1966

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Affiant learned from Mr. Minton that
> Scientology operatives had discovered information about him that threatened
> his wife and children's future and Mr. Minton was very sad and upset about
> this. Mr. Minton said he no longer felt like living. He just felt like
> killing himself and things were really bad. Mr. Minton was crying as he
> told me these things.

[...]

> I talked to Bob and he told me he was going to contact
> Mike Rinder, who is the top executive of Scientology's legal and
> intelligence activities to see if he could work out a deal. Mr. Minton said
> he felt like he had no other choice but to take this action of trying to
> negotiate with Mr. Rinder.


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

Don't ever defend. Always attack. Find or manufacture enough
threat against them to cause them to sue for peace.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
HCOPL 30 may 1974

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> She said that Mr. Rosen screamed at her
> and Bob that Bob was going to jail for contempt in front of judge Schaeffer
> and he was also going to jail for perjury in front of Judge Baird. Mr.
> Rosen also said that unless the wrongful death lawsuit and the Wollershiem
> lawsuit were dismissed Bob was going to jail. Bob told me how Mr. Rinder
> coldly told Bob Minton that he knew was f__king him, but at least he was
> doing it to him to his face.

[...]

> Bob was still concerned and said Scientology had filed another
> suit where he was named as a defendant. He pulled the suit out and showed
> us what it was. It was a suit against Jerry Armstrong and Bob Minton. The
> suit alleged that Jerry Armstrong had broken his settlement agreement with
> Scientology multiple times and some how Bob had enabled and encouraged
> Jerry to do this. In the end, the suit asked for 80 million dollars in
> damages. Bob commented on the fact that Jerry had no money and he was sure
> Scientology would force him to defend himself in the suit and pay any
> judgments as a result.

[...]


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

The DEFENSE of anything is UNTENABLE. The only way to defend anything
is to ATTACK, and if you ever forget that, then you will lose every
battle you are ever engaged in, whether it is in terms of personal
conversation, public debate or court of law. NEVER BE INTERESTED IN
CHARGES. DO, yourself, much MORE CHARGING, and you will WIN.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
HCOPL 30 may 1974

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> At one point he
> read a letter that Ken had recently sent him which mentioned Ken having the
> blood of Bob's wife and children on his hands if he did not get the
> wrongful death suit dismissed. I asked both Stacy and Bob what else
> Scientology wanted them to do to avoid going to jail. Bob replied there
> was a lot more Scientology wanted him to do but he did not know when
> Scientology would be done with him.

[...]


NEVER, DUMBASS!! Never. And after they've gotten all they can, you think
they'll let you go? Dumbass??


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on
somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, will knowing that he is
not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional
decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
"A Manual on the Dissemination of Material" (1955)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> She said
> when Bob went back into deposition he just broke down and started to cry
> uncontrollably. At that point the deposition was stopped and Mr. Rosen
> assured Bob that the record would be corrected later. The next day was the
> hearing for contempt in front of Judge Baird.


Lucky timing for the cult.


> Bob told me that Sandy Rosen assured him that if he
> implicated Ken with his testimony that Scientology would withdraw the
> contempt motion and ask that all fines be dropped.


And then they'll leave you alone? Dumbass??


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

It is my specific intention that by the use of professional PR (black PR)
tactics any opposition not only be dulled but permanently iradicated.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
HCOPL 30 may 1974

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> I left the beach and went to see
> attorney Denis DeVlaming. I told him I just saw Bob Minton up on the stand
> lying about Ken Dandar because that's what Scientology wanted him to do.

[...]


Lie to the court, lie to Mr. Minton, lie to the lawyers, lie, lie,
filthy lies all around.

The cult lies and forces others to lie because the cult believes that
is the ONLY way to control people. The cult believes that lying is the
very _mechanism_ of control. So they lie. They force others to lie.


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM.
You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only
way you can control anybody is to lie to them. When you find an
individual is lying to you, you know that the individual is trying to
control you. One way or another this individual is trying to control
you. That is the mechanism of control. This individual is lying to you
because he is trying to control you - because if they give you enough
misinformation they will pull you down the tone scale so that they can
control you.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
Technique 88

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> We made small talk and Bob
> told me he had something to show me. He pulled out a stack of paper at
> least 2 inches thick and gave it to me. What he had given me was a RICO
> suit Scientology had put together that named him as a defendant. At the end
> of the suit it asked for 110 million in damages. Bob said, "So Jesse how
> much is that now? The recently filed Armstrong suit asked for 80 million,
> this new RICO suit wants 110 million in damages so that's 190 million they
> want, plus they're adding me as a defendant in the breach of contract
> cases. The only person that has money is me so it is me that will end up
> paying for all of this and I just can't do it. I can't fight them anymore".


DingDingDingDing! Find their ruin and exploit it. Find or manufacture
enough threat to cause them to sue for peace. That's religious doctrine.


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

The less handling, the more disastrous. There is another hard-won
truth. ONLY COUNTERATTACK HANDLES.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
HCOPL 21 Nov 1972

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> I asked him what that was all about and he
> said Scientology had been talking with him and wanted him to change more
> testimony so as to implicate Ken further. He said the package was
> approximately 11 inches of testimony he had given before and some of it
> needed to be changed.

[...]

> [Bob] read something that was totally incomprehensible to me

> and said that what this means is judge Schaeffer did not trust me as a
> witness and there was nothing I could do to help Ken with the wrongful

> death case. He said unless I change my testimony, Judge Schaeffer was going
> to put me in jail.


Your new life's work, Mr. Minton.

It's almost like you are being handled on a "gradient." Just correct a
little of your testimony. Just recant some of your testimony. Just talk
to others about correcting their testimony. Just beg others to retract
their testimony. Just tell others to fail to testify. Just threaten
others so they change their testimony. Then the cult will leave me in
peace. They promised!! They swore!!! Mr. Rinder gave me his word!!!!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE - TR L

Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1.
To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
[...]

Training Stress: In Part 1 coach gives command, student originates a
falsehood. Coach flunks for out TR 1 or TR 0. In Part 2 coach asks
questions of the student on his background or a subject. Student gives
untrue data of a plausible sort that the student backs up with further
explanatory data upon the coach asking further questions. The coach
flunks for out TR 0 and TR 1, and for student fumbling on question
answers. The student should be coached on a gradient until he/she can
lie facilely.
[...]

-- [Cult document recovered in FBI raid]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


It's classic blackmail. The reason nations don't negotiate with
terrorists is they would become constant, forever victims of terrorism
forever after. It holds true for blackmail, too.

No matter what manufactured threats they say they will withdraw if you
comply, you think they won't manufacture more or revive those threats in
the end and ruin you with it? Dumbass! There is already a plan,
carefully crafted, the final solution for the Robert Minton problem. All
signed off on, the papers sitting in a brightly colored red box. Dear
authorities: How about getting off your butt, and legally, properly, and
by surprise, going into some HQs and looking for 'red box' data?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From 493 F. Supp. 209; 1979 U.S. Dist, September 13, 1979

During the search of a cabinet labeled "Confessional Formulary" in the
Information Bureau, Special Agent Oppy came across a document n18 which
is set out in its entirety in the margin. Trans. of July 17, 1979 at
448-49. After this seizure an order went out for agents to watch for
documents marked "red box" because "red box" meant that some of the
documents might have been stolen. See Trans. of August 27, 1979 at 73.

n18. RED BOX DATA INFORMATION SHEET

1. What is Red Box data?

a) Proof that a Scnist is involved in criminal activities.

b) Anything illegal that implicates MSH, LRH.

c) Large amounts of non FOI docs.

d) Operations against any government group or persons.

e) All operations that contain illegal activities.

f) Evidence of incriminating activities.

g) Names and details of confidential financial accts.

2. Where is Red Box data kept?

a) Out of date material or finished cycles that can be shredded should
be.

b) Large amounts of red box data that is not needed for day to day
function but cannot be destroyed is located with all our NON FOI docs
and can be called for via CIC.

c) Small amounts of data that must be kept on hand due to security and
frequent use is to be kept in a briefcase locked up and is to be
marked. (in BI office area)

3. How is Red Box data, kept on the BI premises, cared for?

a) This data will be picked up and carried out of the building by the
"owner' immediately upon notification of a raid, search warrant etc.

b) Persons carrying this data (as few as possible) will leave the
premises and only return when they have called in and received an "all
clear'. (Details of who goes where with what data will be sorted out
later and drilled)"

Government Exhibit 38.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Or at the least, when the cult is about to testify in court, first ask
them for their definition of "true" and "ethical?" These things have
special Scientology definitions that may surprise you.


> I told them of two specific instances of when I had agreed to
> negotiate with Scientology but they never ever held up their end of the
> bargain and each time my life was ruined by them anyway. I told them I
> thought they were negotiating with the devil.


++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++

People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score.

-- L. Ron Hubbard
Manual of Justice

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> I told them they were making a big mistake. Bob told me that I was
> the one making a mistake but if I walked down this road with them they
> would hire an attorney for me and everything would be okay. Both he and
> Stacy Brooks told me of a new life where we would all live in happiness and
> prosperity. I exploded at that point and told them the truth. I told them
> from the very beginning when Bob started to lie I called law enforcement
> and told them the whole story. I told them they were the ones who were
> screwed. Bob told me I was going to jail and I should leave, and I did. My
> two best friends have been backed into a corner due to the unlawful
> discovery practices of Scientology which was allowed to go on and on by the
> lower courts. The fact that there has been plenty of illegal discovery
> allowed into Mr. Minton, the LMT and Mr. Dandar on financial matters has
> been acknowledged by the

> appeals courts only recently. In effect, if the law had been correctly
> interpreted and applied these matters would have never been an issue. As
> a result, my friends are being blackmailed and coerced and are now lying
> for Scientology with the hope of getting Scientology out of their lives
> forever. I invite the court to look at the introduction to the "harassment
> time track" authored by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks and reconcile what was
> written then against what they are doing now and have mercy on them both.
>
> FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NOT.


Blackmail is a dirty, filthy thing. And being the victim of blackmail
performed by an entity with decades of experience, specializing in using
psychological and legal pressure, has got to be devastating. I know that
if the thriving cult of greed and power ever came up against me, I'd
fold like a cheap suit. And mark these words, if I ever permanently
disappear from ars without posting a satisfactory explanation, _that's
exactly what happened_. But I think the cult has one or two higher
priorities right now. God Bless you, Jesse Prince.

Maybe there is a bright side to this. Maybe somehow this will turn out
to be the cult's biggest footbullet yet. Maybe somehow, eventually, some
justice will come out of this.

--
LYING IS A SCIENTOLOGY SACRAMENT
ASK THEM ABOUT XENU
Mike O'Connor <http://www.leptonicsystems.com/>

Tom Padgett

unread,
May 3, 2002, 12:25:44 PM5/3/02
to
Mr. Prince is to be commended for this sworn
statement of his view of the facts. Oh the courage here.

What struck as the most important event is
Jesse's attempts to get the FBI involved. The unfolding and airing of
this clear case where
$cienos apply psycho-terrorism to break down the human spirit with
threats of death-by-litigation and jail time.

I still blame the judges in these cases for allowing this mess to get
this far.

VWD Jesse.......and thanks.

Tom
------------------------------
http://www.FairGamed.Org

ka...@wwwaif.net

unread,
May 3, 2002, 12:40:03 PM5/3/02
to
In article <aaub55$dqob0$1...@ID-123127.news.dfncis.de>, "Baba ROM DOS" <Baba_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>While I'm seeing responses to this like "I trust
>Jesse", "Sounds like Jesse is telling the truth", etc.,
>I would point out that a lot of people also responded
>to Bob's initial, less blatant round of Scientology[tm]
>perjury with similar statements of confidence. And
>that Jesse has been known to bullshit at least as much
>as Bob and Stacy in the past.

True enough. Also, there's something else to be considered, which I'll get to in
a moment.

>His statement *does* ring more true than Bobs'.
>It even sounds like Jesse might have written it, unlike
>Bob's more recent depositions which look to have
>been written by a "Church" attorney. But we should
>no more run off brandishing this as Revealed Truth than
>we should call Bob's depositions "finally coming clean".
>
>Does anyone with a personal knowledge of the facts
>involved have *any* information that would contradict
>what Jesse says here? Specifically, I'd be interested in
>Mark Bunker's comments (not that I would necessarily
>take them on faith either). Mark, did things happen as
>Jesse says in early April? What, if any, specific facts
>of which you have personal knowledge does Jesse have
>wrong here?

First off, I'd like to say that I agree that this statement has "the ring of
truth". It really appears to be a natural recollection of events of the last
few weeks, not a pre-fabricated legal document like those being signed by Bob
and Stacy. I think that this is what Jesse genuinely believes to be the
truth, however -- and I'm not Mark (thank goodness) -- that doesn't mean that I
don't think that he might have been manipulated by Bob and Stacy as part of
their initial effort to get him to "walk together" into Rinder's office at Flag.

One thing that I notice, unless I missed it in reading the affidavit, is that
Jesse never had direct contact with the Scn attorneys and execs with whom Bob
and Stacy were negotiating. He was told what was going on, and how these awaful
threats were being made, and Bob was going to go to jail, etc. etc. -- but he
heard these things from Bob and Stacy, not from the horse's mouth, as it were.
At no point, I don't think, did he ever meet with Scn directly. He was, instead,
told by Bob and Stacy that lying about Dandar on matters on which he had direct
personal knowledge, like the infamous meeting, and the notorious cheque, was
"necessary" to "help" Bob escape some horrible fate at the hands of the CoS.

Now, not to sound like a big ole cynic, but Stacy was the one providing much of
this information to Jesse, and she was the one trying to convince him that it
was for the "greater good" for him to go along with the lies being concocted by
Scn for Bob to spout. Stacy is a master manipulator, and she's also a habitual
liar (as per her own testimony, even, but also demonstrated repeatedly by her
behaviour on this newsground and elsewhere). She's also former OSA, and she
knows how to hit someone's "buttons" to get them to agree to something they
might not otherwise do. What better "button" for Jesse - a compassionate guy
who, despite all his faults, genuinely cares about Bob Minton, than to suggest
that such lies are necessary to "save" Bob from some dire catastrophe?

Another thing, and it is, perhaps, a minor point -- if Bob *was*, in fact, being
threatened with something that would "leave the blood of his wife and children"
on Dandar's hands if the case wasn't dropped, why in HELL wouldn't he take Jesse
up on the offer to go to the authorities? I'm sorry, we're not living in a
made-for-TV thriller here, and despite assertions to the contrary, Scn does not
run all law enforcement in the US. If actual threats were being made in an
effort to interfere with Bob's testimony with regards to an ongoing court case,
crimes were being committed. Real crimes, not pretend ones. Why would anyone,
especially an intelligent, well-respected businessman with a fleet of lawyers to
advise him, give into a clear case of extortion when they could have used it to
seal the fate of a handful of Scn lawyers and execs in a criminal court of law?
It doesn't ring true. Well, it does in the simplistic "Ooh, Scn is bad and scary
and they'll drown your dog and there's nothing we can do .. Help! Help!" cartoon
view of the world that some people seem to have, but it's just not all that
believeable in a non-sensational context.

That said, I'm madly curious to see what further developments unfold, and how
Scn and the Minton/Brooks combo handle these allegations from a former LMT
"insider". However, I'm not quite ready to let go of the possibility that Jesse,
too, was being manipulated by Bob and Stacy, and that the reason for this
betrayal is not credible threat to one or both of their lives, but merely a
last-ditch effort to save their own skin.

K

Phil Scott

unread,
May 3, 2002, 6:02:16 AM5/3/02
to
On Fri, 03 May 2002 16:40:03 GMT, ka...@wwwaif.net (ka...@wwwaif.net) wrote:

>and despite assertions to the contrary, Scn does not
>run all law enforcement in the US.

Talk to Keith, Gerry, Dennis, Dr Wood on those points. and I think its going to
get worse before it gets better.

>crimes were being committed. Real crimes, not pretend ones. Why would anyone,
>especially an intelligent, well-respected businessman with a fleet of lawyers to
>advise him, give into a clear case of extortion when they could have used it to
>seal the fate of a handful of Scn lawyers and execs in a criminal court of law?

Because the cult has him by the balls on something, probably a tax issue, and
for sure on the perjury issues, and because of those lawsuits that at the least
will cost 10 or 20 million to defend and if he looses will bankrupt him. So he
at least felt he couldnt go to the law.

Phil Scott

>K
>

CL

unread,
May 3, 2002, 4:58:52 PM5/3/02
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


<ptsc AT nym DOT cryptofortress DOT com> wrote:

>I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Jesse Prince for being
>the one person directly involved in all this mess who has shown the
>guts to REALLY come clean.

Really? Well, I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to you for
being able to wade through legal papers, parrot a few legal terms, and
therefore be the de facto a.r.s. spin doctor to lend an air of
legitimacy to lying scumbags, just as you did for Stacy, for Armstrong,
for Wollersheim, and for other lying scumbags in their day, before they
were exposed as the perjuring scum they were. And now that they've been
laid open and exposed for the lying scumbags they are, now you get a
chance to try to keep the lying scumbag Jesse Prince propped up as some
kind of paragon of virtue and truth. But this will come back to bite you
in the ass, too, apologist shill.

Oh, yeah, isn't it sweet how he "came clean" with these completely
gratuitous lies--completely IRRELEVANT to ALL his ensuing testimony--in
the SECOND FUCKING PARAGRAPH:

>RTC owns the trademarks of Scientology

He is a FUCKING liar, and YOU know it, and HE knows it, and the CST
attorneys who wrote it know it.

Hubbard retained ALL COMMERCIAL RIGHTS in the trademarks, which rights
were then passed to CST from Hubbard's estate by order of the IRS
agreement. FACT! Proven with documents.

Prince is a fucking paid LIAR who is LYING under oath.

CST retains the right and power to jerk ALL rights in the trademarks
back from RTC at ANY TIME in CST's SOLE DISCRETION. FACT! Proven with
documents.

So Prince is a fucking paid LIAR who is LYING under oath.

CST has ~SOLE~ ownership of several important trademarks, INCLUDING the
"Way to Happiness" <SPIT!> FACT! Proven with documents.

So Prince is a fucking amoral paid LIAR who is LYING under oath. And of
course he's got lap dogs like you to bark for him.

>RTC licenses all Scientology organizations to use Scientology
>trademark material.

Yet ANOTHER fucking word-twister lie from your latest disinformation
specialist lying worm that you want to stand up for.

The word "material" was thrown in there gratuitously instead of just
saying "trademarks," because the attorneys who wrote it for him KNOW
that it ~implies~ WRITTEN MATERIAL BEARING THE TRADEMARKS, and it will
LULL idiots into the false sense that RTC has control over EVERYTHING,
which is the SAME fucking lie that ALL these lying, perjuring worms
you've defended have been telling UNDER OATH for YEARS.

CST OWNS ~ALL~ "MATERIAL" OUTRIGHT. PERIOD.

So Prince is a fucking amoral paid LIAR who is LYING under oath.

And now comes the payoff, the ONLY reason for this entire, worthless,
unproveable, 14-pages of fucking anecdotal BULLSHIT, not ANY of which
could EVER be verified except with OTHER perjurers--all of whom you've
defended and been lead apologist for, by the way:

>RTC is also the senior corporate entity of all Scientology or
>Scientology related organizations internationally.

Why didn't he just sign his perjury right there and save us all 14 pages
of utter TRIPE? That was ALL it was about. That's ALL he, and the
admitted perjurer, Stacy Young, and the admitted perjurer, Bob Minton,
and the proven liar Gerry Armstrong, and the proven liar, Larry
Wollersheim have been saying for YEARS. That's the ~only~ fucking
message. That's the only lie that matters. That's the seed that gets
planted over and over, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, never with a shred of
evidence, but always buried in rich, black, fertilized loam of
hysterical, emotional hatred that will be disseminated up by
"cult-nigger"-hating bigots like you so that it will plant in others'
minds unnoticed and uninspected and spread and grow like fucking weeds.
And THAT is the lie that is universal now, picked up and spread
internationally by media and newspapers, and even courts, and of course
willing dupes like YOU who can't WAIT to jump in and lend it
"credibility" <SPIT!>.

THAT is the big fucking lie he was paid to COME IN AT THE THRID ACT and
tell now that he has THOUSANDS hanging on his every word. This shit is
scripted EXACTLY like a stage play, and it is ENTIRELY a lie, and ~he~
knows it, and the fucking attorneys who wrote it for him know it, and to
your shame, ~YOU~ know it, and yet you come in here and tell us all
about how this debased lying paid fucking worm has "come clean." You
make me sick.

<SPIT!>

FOAD, sycophant sucker.

CL

==================================SIG==================================
The so-called "A.R.S. Week In Review" is a white-washed propaganda rag
whose excuse for an "editor"--Rod Keller--uses extreme socio-political
censorship to hide important material facts from anyone relying on it.
Keller is in a deep state of denial on the existence and power of the
corporation known as "Church of Spiritual Technology" (CST--doing
business as the "L. Ron Hubbard Library"), and the three tax lawyers who
control it: Sherman Lenske, Stephen Lenske, and Lawrence E. Heller. CST
is the owner of all Scientology-related intellectual property, and is
the senior and most powerful corporation in all of Scientology. Keller
"sanitizes" his publication, keeping out of it of all mention of CST and
the non-Scientologist attorneys running it. Anyone in pursuit or support
of truth and integrity should boycott "A.R.S. Week in Review." Read the
newsgroup alt.religion.scientology for yourself and learn the truth.
=======================================================================

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Birgitta

unread,
May 3, 2002, 6:02:01 PM5/3/02
to
Dear CL ...

can you stop spit for perhaps 5 minutes and please explain to me how
CST or RTC is relevant to this case. As you might already know I am
not totally ignorant when it comes to the issues of CST, but there
must be something more in this case that I don't understand.

Bid

ptsc

unread,
May 3, 2002, 6:55:00 PM5/3/02
to
On Fri, 3 May 2002 17:48:12 +0200, "Baba ROM DOS" <Baba_R...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>His statement *does* ring more true than Bobs'.


>It even sounds like Jesse might have written it, unlike
>Bob's more recent depositions which look to have
>been written by a "Church" attorney. But we should
>no more run off brandishing this as Revealed Truth than
>we should call Bob's depositions "finally coming clean".

Revealed Truth? Maybe not. But it looks like he at least
wrote it himself. It doesn't have the smooth and bullshit
feel of the Scientology-lawyer-written affidavits of everyone
else. I don't detect lawyers for either side hovering over
the author's shoulder putting in little legal phrases here and
there. It's the truth as he sees it, with all that entails, including
that he might have been mistaken or misled. I don't think
he was lying, though.

ptsc

CL

unread,
May 3, 2002, 9:20:08 PM5/3/02
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Birgitta <xe...@post.netlink.se> wrote:

>Dear CL ...
>
>can you stop spit for perhaps 5 minutes

Well, that's asking an awful lot; we've hardly met.

>and please explain to me how
>CST or RTC is relevant to this case.

I will be glad to, but I'm going to extract a promise from you in
return, and I'm going to hold up my end of the bargain in this message,
so you're on the honor system for your end of the bargain.

Here's your end:

1. Use Google and find out what ~percentage~ of anything and everything
ever posted by Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, and Jesse Prince did ~not~
(that's NOT) mention RTC and/or David Miscavige (head of RTC), and then
you come back and tell ~me~ what RTC and/or David Miscavige had to do
with it. (There's a way to do it with Google's advanced search, and I'm
sure you're bright enough to figure out how.)

2. Use Google and find out what ~percentage~ of anything and everything
ever posted by Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, and Jesse Prince ever mentioned
or discussed CST or any of its founders or Special Directors by name.
(There's a way to do it with Google's advanced search, and I'm sure
you're bright enough to figure out how.)

Now here's my end:

As you will discover to your absolute conviction if you do step #1 of
your end, the parties named above are the ones who have ~made~ this case
have EVERYTHING to do with RTC and/or David Miscavige (head of RTC). You
will also discover that they have done exactly the same thing with every
single legal case or public utterance that they have ever been involved
with in any way.

No opportunity to push RTC and/or David Miscavige to the forefront of
public attention has ~ever~ been missed. The percentage you will find
where they ~don't~ bring up RTC and/or David Miscavige (head of RTC), if
you honestly do step #1 of your end, is so close to zero that a cheap
calculator probably won't provide sufficient decimal places to calculate
it. And if you ~read~ those messages you'll find that they would even go
out of their ~way~ to work "DM" or RTC into their messages.

Now, if you're bright, and I'm sure you are, sooner or later it finally
dawns on you that it's downright ~weird~ that there are that many people
who ~cannot~ issue a single utterance without managing to work RTC
and/or David Miscavige (head of RTC) into it somewhere. It starts
getting creepy.

If you do step #2 of your end, you will find almost the exact same
percentage of messages where these parties DO name or discuss CST or any
of its founders (except Lyman Spurlock, the "acceptable" founder to
discuss) or its Special Directors: it's just damned near zero.

What do all these zeros add up to? A propaganda campaign, that's what.

And that's what it has to do with the McPhereson case, and that's why
these propaganda maggots are crawling all over her body in the first
place: it is a sensational case that has gotten and is continuing to get
lots of publicity, and it was a perfect "carrier wave" for the
propaganda message.

But this all goes way back before the tragic, unspeakable death of Lisa
McPherson, which merely gave these money-motivated ghouls a grave to
stand on and preach their propaganda sermon.

It goes back pre-Minton, pre-Prince. Minton was added late, Prince
later. The common denominator, though, to all of them, are these:

Stacy Brooks Young
Gerry Armstrong
Larry Wollersheim

These are three key operatives in the propaganda campaign, and all of
them have, and have had, ONE propaganda message in common, which you
will find worded, stated, and implied THOUSANDS of different ways if you
actually hold up your end of this bargain, and here's their message:

"David Miscavige is the supreme leader over all of Scientology. He was
hand-picked by Hubbard and reorganized the corporations on Hubbard's
orders, and moved the seat of power through ASI to RTC, and from there
exerts absolute domination over all of Scientology."

The only problem with that is that it's a FUCKING lie. (I didn't spit.)

No, that's NOT the only problem with it. Here is the other MAJOR problem
with it:

It's ~exactly~ the same propaganda message being delivered by
"Scientology" in ~all~ of it's PR. And it's ~exactly~ the same
propaganda message being propagated by IRS, including naming Miscavige
to be the head of the "Church Tax Compliance Committee." (I didn't
spit.) The IRS even sent out, at taxpayer expense, a booklet called "A
Description of the Scientology Religion" that was a big sales package
for this EXACT lie.

And it is a ~FUCKING~ LIE! It has been proven conclusively that it is
CST, ~not~ "David Miscavige, that is the supreme leader over all of
Scientology. It is TOTALLY in control. And it was created NOT by "David
Miscavige," but by the IRS's own agent, Meade Emory, and is being run by
tax attorney "Special Directors" hand-picked by Meade Emory and the IRS
to do their bidding.

It's been proven conclusively that CST owns every last copyright that
all of Scientology is utterly dependent on. It's been proven
conclusively that CST has utter controlling interest in every single
trademark. It's been proven conclusively that RTC is only a licensee of
CST. IRS knew about ~all~ of it when they granted CST and the junior
corporations tax exemption, which is the ONLY thing that allowed CST to
come into its position of power to begin with. And it's been proven
conclusively that David Miscavige has NO standing in CST whatsoever.
Even the lie that he was ever a "trustee" of CST has been laid to waste.

So:

Stacy Young has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
Gerry Armstrong has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
Larry Wollersheim has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
Bob Minton has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
Jesse Prince has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
David Miscavige has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
OSA has been lying about it and covering up for CST.
RTC and their lawyers have been lying about it and covering up for CST.
CSI and their lawyers have been lying about it and covering up for CST.
BPI and their lawyers have been lying about it and covering up for CST.
IRS and their lawyers have been lying about it and covering up for CST.

That's a lot of fucking liars telling the SAME lie. (You didn't say I
couldn't curse.)

And they're all supposed to be on different SIDES? Just who are the
fuck-ers, and who are the fuck-ees here, anyway?

Obviously, they are ALL the fuck-ers, and WE are all the fuck-ees.

I somehow doubt that you actually read the series on the copyrights
issues that the ARSCC Librarian posted, but I invite you, for a bonus
step #3 of your end of the bargain, to actuall READ it, and to put some
butcher paper up on a blank wall, and start writing down the names that
appear, and draw color-coded connecting lines between all the names. If
you do, you'll want to leave the lights on at night, and you'll start
wondering what you've confided to whom.

Only one of the interesting little things that will start to materialize
up on your butcher paper chart is, for instance, a covert IRS operative,
Tom Klemesrud, being central to the very first major copyright suit
after CST got all the copyrights, a suit that did the MOST for getting
the propaganda lie about RTC off and running. You'll also find yet
another covert IRS agent, Scott Mayer, with connections to all the major
players listed above. You'll also find, if you go back further,
Armstrong's connections to IRS's CID agents while he was involved with
Flynn.

So IRS has been playing the game at all times from both sides of the
table, and there are major, important, and inarguable ties from IRS
directly into the very top of "Scientology"--at CST--and into the very
heart and soul of the "critic" field, in the persons named above.

And what does that have to do with Lisa McPherson? You tell me.

I didn't make RTC have anything to do with Lisa McPherson, but Bob
Minton and Stacy Young and Jesse Prince and Gerry Armstrong and Larry
Wollersheim have sure gone out of their way to drag the names of RTC
and/or David Miscavige (head of RTC) into it.

Why?

Because her pathetic, frail, roach-bitten dessicated body made a good
place for the maggots to crawl and spread their RTC/Miscavige message to
the whole world.

Why?

Because it involved Scientology, and CST has everything in the world to
do with all of Scientology everywhere, including ownership of the very
bulletins and policies that guided the actions of every Scientologist
who had anything to do with Lisa's "care." What if some of the
"caregivers" were called to testify and said what they were using to
guide them in what they did with Lisa? Bulletins? Whose bulletins? CST's
bulletins, that's whose.

Somebody had to be there to keep CST's name out of it, and to keep CST's
blind, RTC, pushed to the forefront, didn't they? CST can't STAND
discovery.

Why?

Because it was created by IRS, and is in bed with IRS.

Why?

Let me know when you find out. And if it turns out someday that it isn't
because there is murder and/or kidnapping of L. Ron Hubbard, and/or
other major federal crimes behind it all, I'll arrange to have a dinner
for two pre-paid for you at the restaurant of your choice, but I'm sorry
I won't be able to join you.

>As you might already know I am
>not totally ignorant when it comes to the issues of CST, but there
>must be something more in this case that I don't understand.
>
>Bid

I thought you were rather disdainful of the entire focus on and exposure
of CST, and of the people who have been trying for years to get the
truth known. Perhaps I was mistaken. If so, it wasn't the first time,
and it certainly won't be the last.

But I hope you will acknowledge that I did not spit even once. Not
publically, at least.

CL

==================================SIG==================================
The so-called "A.R.S. Week In Review" is a white-washed propaganda rag
whose excuse for an "editor"--Rod Keller--uses extreme socio-political
censorship to hide important material facts from anyone relying on it.
Keller is in a deep state of denial on the existence and power of the
corporation known as "Church of Spiritual Technology" (CST--doing
business as the "L. Ron Hubbard Library"), and the three tax lawyers who
control it: Sherman Lenske, Stephen Lenske, and Lawrence E. Heller. CST
is the owner of all Scientology-related intellectual property, and is
the senior and most powerful corporation in all of Scientology. Keller
"sanitizes" his publication, keeping out of it of all mention of CST and
the non-Scientologist attorneys running it. Anyone in pursuit or support
of truth and integrity should boycott "A.R.S. Week in Review." Read the
newsgroup alt.religion.scientology for yourself and learn the truth.
=======================================================================

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Rev. Fredric L. Rice

unread,
May 3, 2002, 12:35:43 AM5/3/02
to
Xenu allowed tommy...@webtv.net (Tom Padgett) to write:

>Mr. Prince is to be commended for this sworn
>statement of his view of the facts. Oh the courage here.

>What struck as the most important event is Jesse's attempts to
>get the FBI involved. The unfolding and airing of this clear
>case where $cienos apply psycho-terrorism to break down the human
>spirit with threats of death-by-litigation and jail time.

The FBI doesn't care. There's no money in raiding the syndicate and
shutting them down once and for all so the FBI doesn't care. If there
was a time when the FBI would have stepped in and exterminated these
crooks, it was when they blackmailed and extorted the murder charge
out of the hands of Joan Woods in to "accidental death." Ms. Woods
told the fucking _press_ that Scientology racketeered her in to changing
her autopsy findings and the FBI did nothing.

No, before the FBI gets off their asses and does their jobs, there
has to be a profit in it for them -- drug proceeds seizure and forfeiture
laws is all they seem willing to go after.

It's funny. Back in 1994 and 1995 I was a staunch FBI officer
supporter having worked in the field myself. After observing everything
that they allow organized crime get away with and after twigging to
what they were after in the so-called "sporgery investigation," now
they're exposed as just another bad guy. More so given their fascist
actions against animal rights and environmentalist groups.

-- Insane nut rant at http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice
"Commodore Rimjob" is available at http://crimjob.tripod.com
Why did the Scientologist cross the road? - mimus
To slug Bob Minton. - Shydavid (See http://www.BobMinton.ORG/
"Hey Ratfink Asshole Arnie..." -- boobook...@webtv.net (Tigger)

BigBeard

unread,
May 4, 2002, 12:42:02 AM5/4/02
to

"Deana Holmes" <mir...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9202C5DBFB32...@208.201.224.154...

> This affidavit was provided to me by Dandar & Dandar and has been
filed as
> part of the court record. I don't know if it was signed May 1st or
May 2nd.
> I added what I believe are the approximate page numbers in
brackets.
>
> Deana M. Holmes
> mir...@sonic.net
>
>
>
> IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
> IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, STATE OF FLORIDA
> GENERAL CIVIL DIVISION

<snip>

>Bob got
> up on the stand and when he started saying Ken made him lie I got
up and
> walked out of the court room. I felt like I'd been struck by
lightning, and
> I started to cry. For the life of me I could not believe what I had
just
> seen. Bob lying about Ken Dandar? Mr. Rosen now acting on Bob's
behalf? I
> knew I had to do something but I didn't know what.

I've only met Jesse once, and can't claim to really know him, but
this strikes me as the first truely honest and human statement I've
seen in any of the recent rash of transcripts and affidavits yet.

> I drove to the beach to
> think. I decided that I had to somehow get law enforcement involved

> or I could lose my friends forever.

This is the most sensible and caring thing I have seen to date in
these documents.

> I left the beach and went to see
> attorney Denis DeVlaming. I told him I just saw Bob Minton up on
the stand
> lying about Ken Dandar because that's what Scientology wanted him

to do. I
> poured my heart out to him told him everything that had happened
and asked
> him if there was any way he could put me in contact with a federal
agent
> that could investigate this and take the matter to a federal court.
I told
> him I have to do something to help my friends. Denis said that I
had been
> his client as well Bob Minton and there could be a conflict of
interest, as
> Bob may need his help later. He told me his brother Doug DeVlaming
knew
> someone in the FBI that might be interested in investigating
possible
> blackmail and coercion. I explained the situation to Doug and he
said he
> would contact someone, and for me to call him later. I left Mr.
DeVlaming's
> office and went out and rented a hotel room.

This should be fairly easy to verify, and doesn't strike me as the
action of someone with an agenda or acting on someone elses script.

<snip>

> I asked Bob and Stacy, how is
> it if you are in settlement negotiations with Scientology where you
are
> trying to settle cases where you are neither Plaintiff or
Defendant?

A particularly cogent question!

> I reminded them of a mandatory settlement conference that was
scheduled to
> take place on the 19th of April. Stacy commented that she did not
think
> that settlement conference would occur because Bruce Howie and Lee
Fugate
> had met with Judge Schaeffer and briefed her on the information
that came
> up on Ken in front of Judge Baird and that Ken would be
disqualified. I
> asked if Ken Dandar was present when Judge Schaeffer was being
briefed by
> Mr. Howie and Mr. Fugate and Stacy said no.

Interesting that Stacy was aware of these ex-parte meetings and Ken
Dandar wasn't.

> I told her at that point that
> they were on very dangerous grounds and reminded Stacy of an
incident
> whereby I was interrogated by the FBI for five to six hours because
I had
> been in a meeting with David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock and Marty
Rathbun
> along with Earl Cooley where we discussed having a Scientology
staff member
> take a motion to Judge Maryanne Fauscher to get a temporary
injunction
> against David Mayo. I told her that I learned that it was against
the

> rules for attorneys to make ex-parte contact with the Judge of


record without having > the attorney of record present. Both Bob
and Stacy looked at me
> dumbfounded and Stacy commented that she did not think that what
they had
> done was a problem.

Hmmmm...why on earth would Stacy think ex-parte meetings of a type
she had just been told were against the rules wouldn't be a problem?

> On that note we went down and had dinner and made
> small talk the rest of the evening. Bob did repeat that he needed
me to
> walk with them on this, I said I would.

It appears evident from what follows, at least to me, that Jesse
meant he would walk with Bob & Stacy in dealing with Cof$
manipulations, not in cooperating with making them happen.

> 14. When I left Stacy and Bob that night I was shaking so badly
I
> could hardly drive home and I had no idea what I was going to do to
stop
> what was happening. I called a friend named Frank Oliver and asked
him to
> have Ken Dandar call me as I had something to tell him. Ken called
and I
> told him I knew that Bob was lying in court about Ken because this

is what


> Scientology wanted him to do to stop the harassment and law suits.
We
> agreed to meet at the International Mall in Tampa Florida for a
meeting.
> He asked me if it was okay if Mr. Luke Lirot and Mr. Thom Haverty
came, I
> told him yes. We all met in the mall and went to a lounge and I
told only
> Ken everything that had been going on and I told him I could not
live with
> what was going on.

It's called having a conscience and the integrity to follow it.

> He thanked me for coming to him and told me how sad this
> whole thing was making him and how he could not believe it was
happening. I
> hand wrote some of the details of what had been happening and
signed it,
> see attached copy. I told Ken I was willing to testify about what
was
> really going on. Ken said he was going to talk to law enforcement
to try
> and save Bob and get him away from Scientology. I told Ken I was
having a
> meeting with Bob and Stacy again and this time I was to be fully
brought in
> and I would get a chance to talk to the Scientologist myself. I
told him
> the only reason I was going to the meeting was to see the
expression on
> Mike Rinder's face when I tell them that I contacted law
enforcement the
> day Bob lied and that other people knew what was really going on.

Too bad this didn't come off. I'd loved to have heard a description
of Rinder's reaction if it had.

> 15. Later that Sunday evening I met with Stacy and Bob at the
> Radisson hotel on Bellaire Beach. They were staying in room 502.
When I got
> up there Bob had a stack of papers in is hand and said he had
something he

> had to show me. He read something that was totally incomprehensible


to me
> and said that what this means is judge Schaeffer did not trust me
as a
> witness and there was nothing I could do to help Ken with the
wrongful
> death case. He said unless I change my testimony, Judge Schaeffer
was going
> to put me in jail.

Huh? The old "The Judge isn't going to let you testify, and if you
testify the Judge is going to put you in jail." dodge. Lame, very
lame. And a tad sleazy too.

> Things got a bit heated between Bob and me because I
> told him I had no testimony that I needed to change.

Sounds like that bothersome integrity issue getting in Bob's way
again.

Stacy suggested that
> we all go downstairs for dinner and continue the conversation. When
we got
> downstairs I mentioned that we had talked enough together and it
was time I
> sat down and met with the Scientologist. Bob said no, I was not
ready for
> that because I needed to walk with he and Stacy down this road
first. At
> that point I realized I was not going to see a Scientologist that
night so
> I had better try to say or do something to get my friends to stop
lying for

> Scientology. I told them of two specific instances of when I had


agreed to
> negotiate with Scientology but they never ever held up their end of
the
> bargain and each time my life was ruined by them anyway. I told
them I

> thought they were negotiating with the devil. I reminded them about
the
> secretary of a Scientology private investigator named John Porter
calling

> me and I put her in touch with Ray Emmons because she said she was
in


> meetings with Mr. Porter and Scientology people where they planned
months
> before in great detail how they were going to get me busted for
marijuana.
> She even told me how they planned on planting seeds in my back
yard. This
> information had been given to Bob when I found out about it. I was
not the
> person who discussed what the secretary said, Mr. Ray Emmons did.
Bob
> Minton was the one who told me about them putting the seeds on my
back

> porch. I told them they were making a big mistake. Bob told me that


I was
> the one making a mistake but if I walked down this road with them
they
> would hire an attorney for me and everything would be okay. Both he
and
> Stacy Brooks told me of a new life where we would all live in
happiness and
> prosperity.

Why do I keep hearing Darth Vader telling Luke to "Come to the Dark
Side" every time I read this? It sounds like someone needs a serious
reality check here, and I don't mean Jesse.

> I exploded at that point and told them the truth. I told them
> from the very beginning when Bob started to lie I called law
enforcement
> and told them the whole story. I told them they were the ones who
were
> screwed. Bob told me I was going to jail and I should leave, and I
did.

So...not being able to handle the potential trouble source, Bob
disconnects. Predictable I guess, but still sad to see.

> My two best friends have been backed into a corner due to the
unlawful
> discovery practices of Scientology which was allowed to go on and
on by the
> lower courts. The fact that there has been plenty of illegal
discovery
> allowed into Mr. Minton, the LMT and Mr. Dandar on financial
matters has
> been acknowledged by the appeals courts only recently.

Hopefully one day there will be in inquery into why that abusive
discovery was continually allow to go on.

> In effect, if the law had been correctly
> interpreted and applied these matters would have never been an
issue.

On this I disagree. If the abusive discovery had been shut down, the
Cof$ would have just come at Bob & Stacey from another direction.

> As
> a result, my friends are being blackmailed and coerced and are now
lying
> for Scientology with the hope of getting Scientology out of their
lives
> forever.

From what I've seen over the last several years, they are both sadly
deluded if they actually believe cooperating with Cof$ will actually
bring this about. Just like with the mafia, there will always be 'one
more thing' they will be asked to deal with.

> I invite the court to look at the introduction to the "harassment
> time track" authored by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks and reconcile
what was
> written then against what they are doing now and have mercy on them
both.

I pray to God that someone in law enforcement takes an in depth look
at Cof$'s abusive litigation tactics and deals with them.

BigBeard
Katana ko chi, SPsoo


Dena Smythe

unread,
May 4, 2002, 1:01:16 AM5/4/02
to
Has it occurred to anyone yet that Stacy may have been OSA all along,
and this was part of the plot?

Cambridge

unread,
May 4, 2002, 1:25:14 AM5/4/02
to
On 03 May 2002 in
message <aaueh3$1ac...@news1.sympatico.ca>
ka...@wwwaif.net (ka...@wwwaif.net) wrote:

>First off, I'd like to say that I agree that this statement has "the
>ring of truth".

I must say that your endorsement of Mr. Prince's "affidavit" is one of the
few I have had to give careful consideration to. From my knowledge of the
record it seems that you have accumulated to yourself something of a
reputation as a writer, as a journalist, and as a sober and scholarly
assayer of fact, and have even become something of an icon in a.r.s. for
intellectual and journalistic pursuit of truth. If that goes too far, I
don't mean to embarrass you with gloze; perhaps I could mitigate that
statement to: "an icon for what can pass in a.r.s. for intellectual and
journalistic pursuit of truth."

This reputation preceeding you, of course, tends to lend some greater
gravity to your words and affirmation of Mr. Prince's statements, and so I
feel a duty to give careful consideration to your foundation and diligence,
if you would be gracious enough to indulge me.

I do note that you are circumspect enough at least to raise the question of
Mr. Prince's own sources for the majority of the statements he made, those
sources being the admitted perjurers Stacy Young and Bob Minton. In fact
the bulk of his affidavit is "Bob said," "Stacy said," "Bob told me,"
"Stacy told me," much of even that being second-hand hearsay of what Prince
claims that Bob or Stacy claim that others told them.

In fact, just for the record, Mr. Prince describes at least 14 private
phone calls and at least 7 private meetings in which he claims he was
involved with various groups and individuals, none of which events could
possibly be verified in any meaningful way. The number of hearsay phone
calls and meetings he described in which he was not involved, I didn't
bother to count.

Even though the anecdotal recitation of those 21 alleged incidents
constitute almost the entirety of the "affidavit" that you marry yourself
to with "the ring of truth," I will not dignify those asininities with
comment, nor will I repeat your generalized voiced suspicions on those
counts here, since your disclaimers about sour notes in the "ring of truth"
are available to readers of your original message. Instead, I would like to
address only a few of the assertions of Mr. Prince himself.

I will, however, address specifically just exemplars of the alleged phone
calls and meetings that Mr. Prince claims he took part in, in order to
learn from you, by example, what your critical criteria is for hearing the
tintinnabulation of "the ring of truth" in your investigative pursuits.

This is important, since I have relied at times on your own reporting of
fact, as I'm sure many others may tend to do, and it is certainly, then,
valid to inquire into your own intellectual and journalistic integrity on
those things that you tell us peal with the "ring of truth."

1. Mr. Prince said: "RTC owns the trademarks of Scientology... . RTC is


also the senior corporate entity of all Scientology or Scientology related
organizations internationally."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation?

2. Mr. Prince said: "At [a] picket and in my presence, members of


Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and relayed
detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation?

3. Mr. Prince said: "At the request of Bob Minton, [I] traveled to the


office of Ken Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken Dandar that if Ken
could get the Internet critics of Bob Minton to stop posting criticism of
Bob and if Ken would quit meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob would try to
arrange to have his friends loan additional funds to Ken Dandar."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be independently verified, since, if any meeting
of any description between the "affiant," Mr. Prince, and the attorney, Mr.
Dandar, actually did occur, it would be protected by privilege relevant to
Dandar and matters of immediate concern to his clients and their suit?

4. Mr. Prince said: "On or around March 20, 2002, [I] called Mr. Minton at
his home in NH to see how he was doing," then Mr. Prince went on to relay
his hearsay account of Mr. Minton's alleged description of alleged threats
by unidentified "Scientology operatives" against Mr. Minton's wife and
children.

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be verified or corroborated, other than by Mr.
Minton, an admitted perjurer, or by phone records unavailable without
subpoena?

5. Mr. Prince said: "I called to check and see how things were going. I


talked to Bob and he told me he was going to contact Mike Rinder, who is
the top executive of Scientology's legal and intelligence activities to see
if he could work out a deal."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be verified or corroborated, other than by Mr.
Minton, an admitted perjurer, or by phone records unavailable without
subpoena?

6. Paraphrasing Mr. Prince's description of motivation for his own actions,
Mr. Prince claims that he stayed away from the crucial contempt hearing
solely because Bob and Stacy requested that he stay away, with promise of a
"briefing" afterward.

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation?

7. Mr. Prince repeatedly misspelled Gerry Armstrong's name as "Jerry
Armstrong."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation?

8. Mr. Prince said: "I left the beach and went to see attorney Denis
DeVlaming," then Mr. Prince went on to describe a scene of pathos between
him and another attorney.

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be independently corroborated?

9. Mr. Prince said: "I was interrogated by the FBI for five to six hours


because I had been in a meeting with David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock and
Marty Rathbun along with Earl Cooley where we discussed having a
Scientology staff member take a motion to Judge Maryanne Fauscher to get a
temporary injunction against David Mayo.

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be independently corroborated?

10. Mr. Prince described one of the crucial alleged meetings being
partially held on "the top level of a parking structure directly across the


street from the LMT to make sure there was no illegal surveillance going

on."

Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
foundation? How could this be independently corroborated?

If you would be kind enough to offer a mere layman a peek into the profound
mysteries of your investigative and journalistic perquisition, if you could
lead me down the same imperceptible, or at the very least inconspicuous,
path that you took in order to be able to stand before the steeple and hear
the "ring of truth," I should be most humbly in your debt.

Cambridge


Tigger

unread,
May 4, 2002, 2:28:39 AM5/4/02
to
From: camb...@ivy.league (Cambridge) wrote:

>On 03 May 2002 in
>message
><aaueh3$1ac...@news1.sympatico.ca
> ka...@wwwaif.net (ka...@wwwaif.net) >wrote:

(snip)

>3. Mr. Prince said: "At the request of Bob
> Minton, [I] traveled to the office of Ken
> Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken
> Dandar that if Ken could get the Internet
> critics of Bob Minton to stop posting
> criticism of Bob and if Ken would quit
> meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob
> would try to arrange to have his friends
> loan additional funds to Ken Dandar."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you,
> and if so, what is your foundation? How
> could this be independently verified,
> since, if any meeting of any description
> between the "affiant," Mr. Prince, and
> the attorney, Mr. Dandar, actually did
> occur, it would be protected by privilege
> relevant to Dandar and matters of
> immediate concern to his clients and
> their suit?

How loud does the Bell of Truth have to ring before you can hear it?
It has been verified by Deana Holmes and me, Tigger,
that Minton wanted to stop the criticism of him, Brooks and the LMT on
a.r.s.

And it is not unusual for Minton to send a trusted freind and employeee
to deliver a message especially if he didn't want anybody else to know
about it.

Tigger

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I DON'T GIVE THEM HELL. I JUST TELL THEM THE TRUTH AND THEY THINK IT'S
HELL."'

Harry S. Truman (GIVE 'EM HELL, HARRY)
U. S. President
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cambridge

unread,
May 4, 2002, 7:06:02 AM5/4/02
to
On 4 May 2002 in
message <3772-3CD...@storefull-2278.public.lawson.webtv.net>
boobook...@webtv.net (Tigger) wrote:

It is not a question of volume; certainly this newsgroup is deafening in
its din and clangorous noise. The question is one of of clarity and
confirmation, with which the profound Bell of Truth always tolls.

>It has been verified by Deana Holmes and me, Tigger, that Minton
>wanted to stop the criticism of him, Brooks and the LMT on a.r.s.

I can understand fully how and why you might be quick to the Tigger
trigger at the merest suggestion of your own statements to that effect
being called into question. The ambuscades of cynical invective launched
against you for the a.r.s. crime of calling perjurers perjurers have not
escaped my notice.

However: Did I invoke your name? No, I did not. Did I call any of your
statements into question? No, I did not. Did I assert that either you or
Deana were not induced or pressured by some party or means into quelling
your criticisms of Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks, or the LMT? No, I did not.

If you believe or can construe for even a moment that any question I
asked of ka...@wwwaif.net do any of those things, you have badly
misapprehended both the letter and the spirit of my very valid
questions.

So do you accuse me falsely as you have been accused?

>And it is not unusual for Minton to send a trusted freind and
>employeee to deliver a message especially if he didn't want anybody
>else to know about it.

That very well may be. There is little you could tell me about
misprision, calumny, or other deceitful and venal methods of the parties
in question that would come as any great surprise to me, nor, on the
other hand, would I accept your account alone, any more than I accept
Mr. Prince's singularly unverifiable assertions. Really, it is entirely
immaterial to my questions.

In fact, my questions go to this very issue: corroboration and
verification. In an environment where misprision, calumny, deceit, and
perjury pervade, the blind acceptance of asserted and unverifiable
accounts is an act of preposterous laxity and irresponsibility.

In the instant case, we have an assertion of quite a number of things
that the "affiant" knows full well can never be verified:

* We have the "affiant" asserting a meeting with Mr. Dandar that cannot
be verified.

* We have the "affiant" asserting to Mr. Dandar the existence of
unidentified and mysterious moneyed "friends" of Mr. Minton, an
assertion the "affiant" could only make, even to Mr. Dandar, based on
blind faith alone.

* We have the "affiant" leading us to believe that Mr. Dandar would
accept at face value, without question, on blind faith in Mr. Prince's
blind faith, the existence of these ghostly moneyed "friends."

* We have the "affiant" further leading us to believe that, based solely
on Mr. Dandar's unquestioning faith in Jesse Prince's blind faith in the
existence of ghostly "friends" of Mr. Minton, coupled with Mr. Dandar's
further implied blind faith in Jesse Prince's word alone that Mr. Minton
would "try to arrange" additional monies for the case from his ghostly
friends--on these faiths alone, according to the "affiant's" assertions,
did Mr. Dandar then take the precipitous step of entering into the
federal felony of conspiracy to deny another their civil rights.

I invite you to look it up in the Code of Federal Regulations. It is
Title 18, Section 241, available at this url:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/241.html

It carries up to a ten year prison sentence.

These are deep waters. These are serious allegations being made by the
"affiant." I believe he is a perjurer. In fact, I know that he is a
perjurer, because he began his "affidavit" with a bare-faced lie.

Yet ka...@wwwaif.net took it upon herself to advise us that this tissue
of lies has "the ring of truth."

Whether this particular account of the alleged meeting with Mr. Dandar
is a lie or not, no one can ever know. This is a common problem with the
accounts of liars: they take great pains to tell lies that cannot be
easily found out, if at all. What I have questioned in my message is how
such unverifiable stories can possibly be described as having "the ring
of truth." And I would still like to learn the answer to this mystery.

But I did not invoke your name. I did not call any of your own
statements into question. I did not suggest that your civil rights were
not conspired against.

So if you need to pick a fight, may I humbly suggest that you might have
chosen the wrong person, literally, figuratively, and tactically.
Because if I have not made my position clear in this, I assure you that
I can, and that I can do so with such ringing clarity that there will be
no room left for question in your mind between the reverberating echoes.

So send not to find for whom the bells toll; they toll not for me, and
not for thee.

Cambridge


ptsc

unread,
May 4, 2002, 7:38:55 AM5/4/02
to
On Sat, 4 May 2002 07:25:14 +0200 (CEST), Cambridge <camb...@ivy.league>
wrote:

>1. Mr. Prince said: "RTC owns the trademarks of Scientology... . RTC is
>also the senior corporate entity of all Scientology or Scientology related
>organizations internationally."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation?

I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

>2. Mr. Prince said: "At [a] picket and in my presence, members of
>Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and relayed
>detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation?

Yes. Foundation is that this information was then posted to ars.
It was also the basis of a sworn affidavit by Minton himself.

>3. Mr. Prince said: "At the request of Bob Minton, [I] traveled to the
>office of Ken Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken Dandar that if Ken
>could get the Internet critics of Bob Minton to stop posting criticism of
>Bob and if Ken would quit meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob would try to
>arrange to have his friends loan additional funds to Ken Dandar."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation? How could this be independently verified, since, if any meeting
>of any description between the "affiant," Mr. Prince, and the attorney, Mr.
>Dandar, actually did occur, it would be protected by privilege relevant to
>Dandar and matters of immediate concern to his clients and their suit?

My foundation for that one is unavailable. However, Deana Holmes
had commented at least privately to a number of people that this had
occurred, and Minton himself has admitted to this grotesque misconduct
on his own part.

>4. Mr. Prince said: "On or around March 20, 2002, [I] called Mr. Minton at
>his home in NH to see how he was doing," then Mr. Prince went on to relay
>his hearsay account of Mr. Minton's alleged description of alleged threats
>by unidentified "Scientology operatives" against Mr. Minton's wife and
>children.

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation? How could this be verified or corroborated, other than by Mr.
>Minton, an admitted perjurer, or by phone records unavailable without
>subpoena?

I think Minton said it. I think he also said other similar things.

>5. Mr. Prince said: "I called to check and see how things were going. I
>talked to Bob and he told me he was going to contact Mike Rinder, who is
>the top executive of Scientology's legal and intelligence activities to see
>if he could work out a deal."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation? How could this be verified or corroborated, other than by Mr.
>Minton, an admitted perjurer, or by phone records unavailable without
>subpoena?

>6. Paraphrasing Mr. Prince's description of motivation for his own actions,
>Mr. Prince claims that he stayed away from the crucial contempt hearing
>solely because Bob and Stacy requested that he stay away, with promise of a
>"briefing" afterward.

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation?

>7. Mr. Prince repeatedly misspelled Gerry Armstrong's name as "Jerry
>Armstrong."

>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>foundation?

I think Prince misspells things. So fucking what? I've seen him
misspell other things, too. There is no "ring of truth" to be had in
the spelling of a name.

As for the rest of these questions, it's a witness narrative. It has to do with
what was perceived by the person in question. If I had personal
knowledge of the matters therein contained, I would not need an
affidavit in the first place. So I don't know what this bullshit is about
demanding "foundation" for what amounts to a gut feeling.

ptsc

Starshadow

unread,
May 4, 2002, 9:07:19 AM5/4/02
to

ptsc wrote:


It's pretty ironic that Jesse Prince is being called on
his misspellings when three-quarters of this ng, including
some who consider him a "friend" according to them,
continually misspell HIS name as "Jessie".

>
> As for the rest of these questions, it's a witness narrative. It has to do with
> what was perceived by the person in question. If I had personal
> knowledge of the matters therein contained, I would not need an
> affidavit in the first place. So I don't know what this bullshit is about
> demanding "foundation" for what amounts to a gut feeling.
>
> ptsc
>

roger gonnet

unread,
May 4, 2002, 11:14:57 AM5/4/02
to

"Deana Holmes" <mir...@sonic.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
Xns9203413FDC80...@208.201.224.154...

> "roger gonnet" <roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote in
> news:aatf7u$joq$1...@news4.isdnet.net:
>
> > and since Deana was not specially true those times, I'm waiting for
> > Jessie to consolidate my opinions. You know, not being enough paranoïd
> > costed Bob and Stacy a lot.
>
> That's Jesse's affidavit. I got it directly from Ken Dandar.
>
> You keep telling me that I told lies. I want to hear what those lies are.

All the exxagerations about Bob being an OSA now.


>
> Frankly, Roger, I think you keep telling yourself that these things can't
> be true because you believe (with no evidence) that the messenger is a
> liar.

I'm just voluntarily paranoid sometimes, like shown here. No more, no less.
You have too with scn, and when people become as unbalanced as you've been
with Bob and Stacy thse last weeks.

You've got to stop doing that, otherwise you'll believe anything just
> because you put up screens against the truth.

not my trick.

roger


Dave Bird

unread,
May 4, 2002, 1:57:46 PM5/4/02
to
In article<040520020001161135%denas...@aol.com>, Dena Smythe

<denas...@aol.com> writes:
>Has it occurred to anyone yet that Stacy may have been OSA all along,
>and this was part of the plot?

I think that's a bridge too far: I don't think we need to assume that,
and I don't think it's true. Bob is running scared to protect himself,
his tax liabilities, and (apparently) his family too. That's all
it takes.


--
<__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
:_ : : :_
''''''''._____'-_....'"...-------''''''_ <__'
'. $CIENTOLOGY-- ..''--- :.
; _ . . . - '''
. . ' ': ': ':
: .' the wheatstone bridge .~~>~~>:~~>:
:.' to total madness ~~> ~~>

Dave Bird

unread,
May 4, 2002, 2:07:17 PM5/4/02
to
In article<g9r4du802c6oflbla...@4ax.com>, ptsc writes:
>On Fri, 03 May 2002 02:23:37 GMT, Deana Holmes <mir...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>This affidavit was provided to me by Dandar & Dandar and has been filed as
>>part of the court record. I don't know if it was signed May 1st or May 2nd.
>>I added what I believe are the approximate page numbers in brackets.
>>Deana M. Holmes
>>mir...@sonic.net
>
>I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Jesse Prince for being
>the one person directly involved in all this mess who has shown the
>guts to REALLY come clean.

It's nice to see the truth told, at last.

I don't think Bob Minton's latest lies will hold up compared with this
in front of a jury.

I think Jesse had better seek protection for his physical safety; I
think he risks being run over by a truck between now and 10th June.


>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
>>IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, STATE OF FLORIDA
>>GENERAL CIVIL DIVISION
>>
>>

>>ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and Case No. 00-5682-C1
>>through the Personal Representative, Section 11
>>DELL LIEBREICH
>> Plaintiff,
>>vs.
>>CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
>>SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.;
>>JANIS JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI;
>>and DAVID HOUGHTON,
>> Defendants.
>>_________________________________/

>>
>> APRIL 2002 AFFIDAVIT OF JESSE PRINCE

>>STATE OF FLORIDA
>>COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH
>>
>> BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, personally appeared JESSE
>>PRINCE, who after being duly sworn by me, deposes and says:
>>
>> I, JESSE PRINCE, provide the following information which is based on
>>my personal knowledge:
>>
>> 1. Affiant had been retained as the expert on the practices of
>>Scientology by the ESTATE OF LISA MCPHERSON.
>>
>> 2. From 1982-1987, I served as a corporate officer, executive, and
>>board
>>member of Scientology's Religious Technology Center (RTC). RTC owns the
>>trademarks
>>
>>[page 1]
>>
>>of Scientology and licenses all Scientology organizations to use its
>>trademarks. RTC licenses all Scientology organizations to use Scientology
>>trademark material. RTC is also the senior corporate entity of all

>>Scientology or Scientology related organizations internationally.
>>

>> 3. Affiant has been a friend and confidant of Bob Minton for many
>>years, the trial expert on Scientology for Ken Dandar in the Lisa McPherson
>>death case, and the Vice President of the Lisa McPherson Trust, an
>>organization which was dedicated to exposing the deceptive and abusive of
>>Scientology and helping those who have been victimized by Scientology.
>>
>> 4. Affiant was picketing at the Boston Org of Scientology years ago
>>with Bob Minton. At this picket and in my presence, members of

>>Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and relayed

>>detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist. This

>>greatly concerned Bob because his psychiatrist's information was strictly
>>confidential. Bob Minton acts irrational when not on his medication.

>>Bob's psychiatrist then discharged Bob as his patient when Bob confronted
>>the psychiatrist.
>>
>> 5. Sometime after this picket, I observed that Scientology posted
>>on the Internet Bob Minton's confidential psychological records.
>>
>> 6. Bob Minton also relayed to affiant that Scientology obtained his
>>bank records and telephone records, which he said caused him great
>>distress.
>>
>> 7. Due to the continuous harassment of Bob Minton by Scientology
>>and its operatives, I personally observed Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks begin
>>a compilation of a timeline of Scientology attacks and noisy investigations
>>of Bob Minton per Scientology practices.
>>
>> 8. At the request of Bob Minton, affiant traveled to the office of

>>Ken Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken Dandar that if Ken could get
>>the Internet critics of Bob Minton to stop posting criticism of Bob and if
>>Ken would quit meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob would try to arrange to

>>have his friends loan additional funds to Ken Dandar. Bob had told the
>>affiant that he was still willing to help finance the case so that
>>
>>[page 2]
>>
>>it would go to trial.
>> 9. On or around March 20, 2002, affiant called Mr. Minton at his
>>home in NH to see how he was doing. Affiant learned from Mr. Minton that

>>Scientology operatives had discovered information about him that threatened
>>his wife and children's future and Mr. Minton was very sad and upset about
>>this. Mr. Minton said he no longer felt like living. He just felt like
>>killing himself and things were really bad. Mr. Minton was crying as he

>>told me these things. I asked him if there was anything I could do to help
>>him and what specifically was the new threat. Mr. Minton told me he did not
>>feel safe discussing the information over the phone and he was too upset to
>>even talk about it. He told me that Stacy Brooks was leaving Atlanta, GA
>>and flying to NH to help him with this new attack. I told him if there was
>>nothing I could do to help him I would at least pray for him. After talking
>>with Mr. Minton I immediately called Stacy Brooks to see if she would give
>>me more information. Stacy said Bob was in really bad shape. Due to the
>>harrassive discovery by Scientology of Mr. Minton, he was about to fall
>>apart. Stacy said she had to get Bob out of harms way and end his
>>participation in opposing Scientology. Stacy said that no one including the
>>Florida courts or law enforcement had been willing to help stop
>>Scientology's relentless attack on Bob and she was putting an end to any
>>and all liability for Bob. Stacy swore that she would protect Bob no matter
>>what. She did in fact arrive in NH on the same day in question to help Bob.
>>The next day after Stacy arrived in NH, I called to check and see how

>>things were going. I talked to Bob and he told me he was going to contact
>>Mike Rinder, who is the top executive of Scientology's legal and

>>intelligence activities to see if he could work out a deal. Mr. Minton said
>>he felt like he had no other choice but to take this action of trying to

>>negotiate with Mr. Rinder. Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks have in the past
>>successfully ended a lawsuit with Scientology, that ended with both parties
>>being pleased with the results. I asked Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks to be
>>careful and to keep me informed of any progress. The next time I talked to
>>Bob and Stacy was on or around 23 March 2002. Bob told me that he had made
>>the call to Mike Rinder, and the bottom line was Scientology was going to
>>put him in jail. Bob said there was a problem with some checks he had given
>>to
>>
>>[page 3]
>>
>>Ken Dandar. After his talk with Mike Rinder, Bob said it boiled down to
>>who was going to live, him or Ken Dandar, but someone was going to die. He
>>said he called Ken and begged him to drop the wrongful death lawsuit at the
>>demand of Michael Rinder, but Ken refused saying he had an obligation to
>>his client Dell Liebreich. I told Bob that while I did not understand how
>>his life would end unless he chose for Ken to die, I advised him to choose
>>life, and I reminded him of his own family and how they needed him. Bob
>>told me he was going to NY with Stacy Brooks to meet with Mike Rinder the
>>following Friday. Thursday of the following week, Stacy and Bob flew to NY
>>and called me when they arrived. Bob's attorney Steve Jonas was also flying
>>in for the meeting set for the next day. Bob and Stacy promised to call me
>>after the meeting with Mr. Rinder. The next day at around noon time Stacy
>>called me and she was very upset. She said that Mr. Rosen screamed at her

>>and Bob that Bob was going to jail for contempt in front of judge Schaeffer
>>and he was also going to jail for perjury in front of Judge Baird. Mr.
>>Rosen also said that unless the wrongful death lawsuit and the Wollershiem
>>lawsuit were dismissed Bob was going to jail. Bob told me how Mr. Rinder
>>coldly told Bob Minton that he knew was f__king him, but at least he was

>>doing it to him to his face. Bob went on to tell me Mr. Rinder went on to
>>say that other people who were suppose to be his friends were F__king him
>>behind his back: Ken Dandar, Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander were
>>mentioned specifically. Bob told me that Mr. Sandy Rosen or Mr. Rinder, I
>>do not remember which one, told Bob that he is crazy if he thinks Ken
>>Dandar will ever see any money even if he wins. The same person said to
>>take the Wollersheim case as an example. Mr. Rosen told Bob that the only
>>way he would not go to jail is if he got the wrongful death case dismissed
>>along with the Wollersheim case. Both Stacy and Bob said they tried to
>>explain the fact that they had no power or authority to get these cases
>>dismissed. They told Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen that they had earlier tried
>>to get Ken to get Dell Liebreich to drop the case but they flat out
>>refused. The response was "too bad, because Bob was going to jail." Stacy
>>said that both Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen were being very nasty to them both
>>and Bob and Stacy got up and walked out of the meeting because it was
>>horrible. Bob and Stacy took the next plane
>>
>>[page 4]
>>
>>home and were back in NH by 7:00PM the same day. Both Stacy and Bob called
>>me when they got back to NH and expressed to me how deeply disappointed
>>they were about not being able to reconcile anything with Scientology and
>>they were putting the whole idea of negotiations with them on the back
>>burner for now.
>>
>> 10. The next day, late in the afternoon I talked to Stacy on the
>>phone and she told me that Mike Rinder called and said he really didn't
>>understand why Bob and Stacy walked out of the meeting. She went on to say
>>that Mr. Rinder said that he understood that Bob and Stacy could not
>>dismiss the wrongful death suit and the Wollersheim case in CA, but there
>>were things Stacy and Bob could do. I asked what were the things they could
>>do, and Stacy said she did not know but they were going to meet with Mr.
>>Rinder and company again in Clearwater a day or so before the contempt
>>hearing on Bob Minton in front of judge Schaeffer on 5 April, 02. Stacy was
>>happy about being able to negotiate with Scientology and reaffirmed to me
>>that she was getting Bob out of the Scientology mess before it killed him.
>>Bob was very nervous about coming back to Clearwater and he expressed that
>>he felt like he was going to jail if he came back to Clearwater.
>>
>> 11. Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton and Mark Bunker arrived in Clearwater
>>FL, from NH on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 02. Bob and Stacy got a room at the
>>Harbor Bay Hotel in Tampa, FL and Mark Bunker stayed at my house in
>>Clearwater FL. The following day, Stacy and Bob went to meet with Mike
>>Rinder, Sandy Rosen, and Monique Yingling at a restaurant in the Belleview
>>Biltmore Hotel. After the meeting was over, Stacy called me and I asked her
>>how the meeting went. She said she thought they made progress and things
>>were going to be okay. I asked her specifically what were the "things that
>>could be done" that would make Scientology stop trying to put Bob in jail.
>>She told me she would tell me when she saw me but Ken Dandar was not going
>>to be happy. Bob got on the phone and said Stacy was a lot more optimistic
>>about what was happening and he was still worried about going to jail. Bob
>>and Stacy had a very busy schedule meeting with Mr. Bruce Howie and Mr.
>>Steve Jonas preparing for the contempt hearing with judge Schaeffer. Stacy
>>and Bob asked that I not come to the hearing and she would brief me on what
>>happened when
>>
>>[page 5]
>>
>>it was over.
>>
>> 12. After the hearing on 5 April, 02, Bob and Stacy called and
>>they were satisfied with the results of the hearing. Both said that Bruce
>>Howie was brilliant and Bob got off on the contempt due to a technical
>>error made by Mr. Kendrick Moxon. They were very happy about this and
>>invited me, and 3 other staff members that worked at the LMT out to dinner
>>at Jackson's restaurant located in the hotel they were staying at. Before
>>dinner we met in the lounge/bar area at the hotel and talked about the
>>hearing. Bob was still concerned and said Scientology had filed another

>>suit where he was named as a defendant. He pulled the suit out and showed
>>us what it was. It was a suit against Jerry Armstrong and Bob Minton. The
>>suit alleged that Jerry Armstrong had broken his settlement agreement with
>>Scientology multiple times and some how Bob had enabled and encouraged
>>Jerry to do this. In the end, the suit asked for 80 million dollars in
>>damages. Bob commented on the fact that Jerry had no money and he was sure
>>Scientology would force him to defend himself in the suit and pay any

>>judgments as a result. He gave me a copy of the suit to look at and I
>>pointed out that according to what I was reading, Scientology alleged Bob
>>co-conspired with Jerry Armstrong to violate his settlement with
>>Scientology before Bob ever knew or met Jerry Armstrong. I told him the
>>suit was crap. Bob's retort was Scientology does a lot of crap and gets
>>away with it and they would get away with this suit as well. Another
>>person, Ingrid Wagner, read the suit and agreed with Bob that it was not
>>crap and Bob should be concerned. We talked about the next hearing and
>>deposition with judge Baird that was scheduled for 8 and 9 April, 02 and
>>had a nice dinner. For the next few days, Bob and Stacy continued to have
>>meetings with Mike Rinder and company and both started to reveal to me what
>>Scientology wanted them to do. The bottom line was Scientology wanted Bob
>>to say that Ken Dandar caused Bob Minton to perjure himself in the breach
>>of contract case in front of Judge Baird. The plan was to get Ken removed
>>from the wrongful death case and get disbarred as an attorney. I asked Bob
>>what has Ken done to deserve that? Stacy cut in and asked me if I
>>remembered a meeting that supposedly happened in the early fall of 1999.
>>Stacy said she and I were at a meeting along with Bob
>>
>>[page 6]
>>
>>Minton, Michael Garko and Ken Dandar when Ken announced that he was adding
>>David Miscavige as a party in the wrongful death case. As Bob was not
>>involved in the case, Ken told him if he were ever asked, the meeting never
>>occurred. She asked me if I remembered that and I said I did not. Bob said
>>"Jesse, we need you to walk with us on this", I said I would stand behind
>>him but the meeting never happened and I was not going to lie about it. I
>>told both Stacy and Bob that there was no way the case was going to be
>>thrown out by trying to get rid of Ken. I told them that they were working
>>with criminals who are accusing others of doing criminal acts. Bob said he
>>felt horrible about what he was asked to do against Ken and he was not sure
>>it was the right thing to do because it felt so wrong. At one point he

>>read a letter that Ken had recently sent him which mentioned Ken having the
>>blood of Bob's wife and children on his hands if he did not get the
>>wrongful death suit dismissed. I asked both Stacy and Bob what else
>>Scientology wanted them to do to avoid going to jail. Bob replied there
>>was a lot more Scientology wanted him to do but he did not know when

>>Scientology would be done with him. Stacy and Bob had been working on a
>>reply to Ken's letter and Bob asked Stacy to read me the reply. I started
>>to feel sick as she read the response but one point really caught my
>>attention: the point was that Bob alleged in the letter that I had given
>>false testimony because Ken Dandar had manipulated me to write that David
>>Miscavige knew about Lisa's condition and instead of letting her be taken
>>to a hospital he let her die because of the public relations flap it would
>>cause. I told both Bob and Stacy there was no manipulation of me by Ken and
>>my testimony is true so don't say that in the letter. Detailed evidence by
>>Scientology's own policies commands its adherents to immediately report to
>>RTC ANYONE who has gone psychotic as a result of Scientology's
>>psychological practices. David Miscavige was and still is the Senior
>>executive in RTC and has full knowledge of information sent to his
>>organization. Stacy said the letter was just a draft and they were letting
>>me see it to get my input. The letter was being drafted with Mr. Rosen and
>>Mr. Rinders help. Bob laughed and said another thing he had offered
>>Scientology as part of the settlement negotiations was to turn over my
>>partnership in the film "The Profit" so Peter and Patricia would have to
>>deal with Scientology on the
>>
>>[page 7]
>>
>>film. I changed the subject and asked what about the Wollersheim case?
>>Stacy informed me that she had talked to Dan Liepold, the attorney, and
>>asked him to remove her testimony from the case. Dan refused to do it but
>>Stacy said she would deal with that after they finished doing what
>>Scientology wanted them to do in the wrongful death case. She explained
>>that there were three witnesses for the plaintiff concerning alter ego.
>>The witnesses are Stacy Brook, Vaughn Young and myself. I told her I had no
>>intentions of asking for my testimony to be removed from the case for
>>Scientology and we left it at that. The following Monday arrived and Bob
>>was to be deposed by Sandy Rosen. After the deposition Stacy called me and
>>briefed me on what happened in the deposition. She told me Bob was being
>>deposed and she heard him tell a lie. Stacy said she had Mr. Howie stop the
>>deposition so that she could clear up what Bob had just said. Stacy said
>>she told Bob not to lie again and to go in and correct the record. She said

>>when Bob went back into deposition he just broke down and started to cry
>>uncontrollably. At that point the deposition was stopped and Mr. Rosen
>>assured Bob that the record would be corrected later. The next day was the

>>hearing for contempt in front of Judge Baird. Bob and Stacy had been
>>meeting with Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen to prepare Bob for his testimony. Bob
>>and Stacy asked me to be at the hearing. They told me Bob was going to
>>testify against Ken. I told them I couldn't believe things had degraded to
>>this level. Bob said he still did not feel good about what he was about to
>>do and felt it was wrong. Stacy said they had to stay on this road and get
>>through this. Bob told me that Sandy Rosen assured him that if he

>>implicated Ken with his testimony that Scientology would withdraw the

>>contempt motion and ask that all fines be dropped. Stacy and Bob asked that
>>I attend the hearing, I told them I would be there. Monday came, and I sat
>>in Judge Baird's court room waiting for the proceedings to start. Bob got

>>up on the stand and when he started saying Ken made him lie I got up and
>>walked out of the court room. I felt like I'd been struck by lightning, and
>>I started to cry. For the life of me I could not believe what I had just
>>seen. Bob lying about Ken Dandar? Mr. Rosen now acting on Bob's behalf? I

>>knew I had to do something but I didn't know what. I drove to the beach to

>>think. I decided that I had to somehow get law enforcement involved
>>

>>[page 8]
>>
>>or I could lose my friends forever. I left the beach and went to see

>>attorney Denis DeVlaming. I told him I just saw Bob Minton up on the stand
>>lying about Ken Dandar because that's what Scientology wanted him to do. I
>>poured my heart out to him told him everything that had happened and asked
>>him if there was any way he could put me in contact with a federal agent
>>that could investigate this and take the matter to a federal court. I told
>>him I have to do something to help my friends. Denis said that I had been
>>his client as well Bob Minton and there could be a conflict of interest, as
>>Bob may need his help later. He told me his brother Doug DeVlaming knew
>>someone in the FBI that might be interested in investigating possible
>>blackmail and coercion. I explained the situation to Doug and he said he
>>would contact someone, and for me to call him later. I left Mr. DeVlaming's

>>office and went out and rented a hotel room. I did not want to see Bob or
>>Stacy and I knew they would be looking for me. I called my girlfriend and
>>told her what happened and that I did not want to talk with Bob or Stacy
>>until they were back at home. Bob and Stacy looked for me everywhere
>>calling hospitals and checking with the police. My girlfriend gave them the
>>message that I was very upset and I would contact them after they arrived
>>back to NH. They calmed down and the next day Bob, Stacy and Mark left
>>Clearwater, headed for NH.
>>
>> 13. The next day I was in telephone communication with Bob and
>>Stacy. They wanted to know why I walked out of the hearing and what was
>>wrong. I told them I could not believe what I had seen Bob do and it upset
>>me greatly. I told them Scientology was making a fool out of them in my
>>opinion. Stacy said the reason I felt that way was because I did not have
>>all of the information. She said I had been left in the dark about some
>>things that both her and Bob were not able to talk about because they had
>>signed a non-disclosure agreement with Scientology concerning the
>>settlement talk and it was time they brought me into the picture. She said
>>it was time for me to start meeting with Scientology and their attorneys. I
>>told her I was ready to start understanding what was going on. Stacy told
>>me that she and Bob would be back in Clearwater on 12 April, 02 and we
>>would meet and they would bring me into the picture fully. They arrived
>>late that Friday, we talked on
>>
>>[page 9]
>>
>>the phone, and agreed to meet the following Saturday at 8:00PM for dinner
>>at the Adams Mark hotel on Clearwater Beach. Stacy told me that she and Bob
>>were meeting with Michael Garko Saturday afternoon. She mentioned that
>>Michael was upset with Ken because Ken had not paid Michael since September
>>of 01. I arrived at the hotel on time, Stacy met me in the lobby and we
>>went to a room on the 9th floor where Bob was. We made small talk and Bob

>>told me he had something to show me. He pulled out a stack of paper at
>>least 2 inches thick and gave it to me. What he had given me was a RICO
>>suit Scientology had put together that named him as a defendant. At the end
>>of the suit it asked for 110 million in damages. Bob said, "So Jesse how
>>much is that now? The recently filed Armstrong suit asked for 80 million,
>>this new RICO suit wants 110 million in damages so that's 190 million they
>>want, plus they're adding me as a defendant in the breach of contract
>>cases. The only person that has money is me so it is me that will end up
>>paying for all of this and I just can't do it. I can't fight them anymore".

>>He went on to say that he needed me to stand with him and Stacy on this to
>>pull it off. I pretended like I agreed with him and asked when would I be
>>able to meet with the Scientologist. Stacy said tomorrow but we have to go
>>over some things first. Bob said what was needed from me was to change my
>>testimony. As he was talking the phone rang. Someone was asking where a
>>package should be delivered. Bob told the person where he was and he asked
>>the person to leave the package a the front desk and he would pick it up
>>later and he hung up the phone. I asked him what that was all about and he

>>said Scientology had been talking with him and wanted him to change more
>>testimony so as to implicate Ken further. He said the package was
>>approximately 11 inches of testimony he had given before and some of it

>>needed to be changed. I told him I don't know what I'm suppose to change in
>>my testimony because I told the truth when I gave it the first time. I
>>asked how the meeting went with Michael Garko and Stacy said really good.
>>She said Michael Garko said he knew the how much the case had cost to put
>>on to date and there was no way Ken had spent 2 million dollars. Bob said
>>Mr. Garko said he thought Ken had put the money in an account in the Cayman
>>Islands. Stacy and Bob told me how upset Dr. Garko was over not being paid
>>and
>>
>>[page 10]
>>
>>he was going to help Bob and Stacy get Ken. I looked at both of them like
>>they were insane. I reminded them of an incident that happened in August of
>>01 where Bob said the case was costing too much and Ken had to cut cost.
>>Part of the cost cutting was to not pay Mr. Garko until the case was over.
>>Bob invited me and Stacy Brooks to the top level of a parking structure

>>directly across the street from the LMT to make sure there was no illegal

>>surveillance going on and he said Ken is getting $500.000 and that was all
>>he was going to get and it was a big secret and we were not to tell anyone
>>about it. I asked them why they were both acting like they didn't know Dr.
>>Garko had not been paid. They didn't have anything to say. We started
>>talking about how they were going to get the Wollersheim case dismissed.
>>Bob said that he had had a conversation with Dan Leipold about getting the
>>case dismissed and Mr. Leipold stated that he could not do that because he
>>had an obligation to this client. Bob was upset that Daniel Leipold would
>>not agree to getting the case dismissed because he had loaned him money
>>before. Bob then told me that he offered Lawrence Wollersheim, the
>>Plaintiff in a California case against Church of Scientology, $200,000.00
>>of his own personal money to drop the case. I asked Bob and Stacy, how is

>>it if you are in settlement negotiations with Scientology where you are

>>trying to settle cases where you are neither Plaintiff or Defendant? I

>>reminded them of a mandatory settlement conference that was scheduled to
>>take place on the 19th of April. Stacy commented that she did not think
>>that settlement conference would occur because Bruce Howie and Lee Fugate
>>had met with Judge Schaeffer and briefed her on the information that came
>>up on Ken in front of Judge Baird and that Ken would be disqualified. I
>>asked if Ken Dandar was present when Judge Schaeffer was being briefed by

>>Mr. Howie and Mr. Fugate and Stacy said no. I told her at that point that

>>they were on very dangerous grounds and reminded Stacy of an incident

>>whereby I was interrogated by the FBI for five to six hours because I had

>>been in a meeting with David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock and Marty Rathbun
>>along with Earl Cooley where we discussed having a Scientology staff member
>>take a motion to Judge Maryanne Fauscher to get a temporary injunction

>>against David Mayo. I told her that I learned that it was against the
>>rules for
>>

>>[page 11]


>>
>>attorneys to make ex-parte contact with the Judge of record without having
>>the attorney of record present. Both Bob and Stacy looked at me
>>dumbfounded and Stacy commented that she did not think that what they had

>>done was a problem. On that note we went down and had dinner and made

>>small talk the rest of the evening. Bob did repeat that he needed me to
>>walk with them on this, I said I would.
>>

>> 14. When I left Stacy and Bob that night I was shaking so badly I
>>could hardly drive home and I had no idea what I was going to do to stop
>>what was happening. I called a friend named Frank Oliver and asked him to
>>have Ken Dandar call me as I had something to tell him. Ken called and I
>>told him I knew that Bob was lying in court about Ken because this is what
>>Scientology wanted him to do to stop the harassment and law suits. We
>>agreed to meet at the International Mall in Tampa Florida for a meeting.
>>He asked me if it was okay if Mr. Luke Lirot and Mr. Thom Haverty came, I
>>told him yes. We all met in the mall and went to a lounge and I told only
>>Ken everything that had been going on and I told him I could not live with

>>what was going on. He thanked me for coming to him and told me how sad this

>>whole thing was making him and how he could not believe it was happening. I
>>hand wrote some of the details of what had been happening and signed it,
>>see attached copy. I told Ken I was willing to testify about what was
>>really going on. Ken said he was going to talk to law enforcement to try
>>and save Bob and get him away from Scientology. I told Ken I was having a
>>meeting with Bob and Stacy again and this time I was to be fully brought in
>>and I would get a chance to talk to the Scientologist myself. I told him
>>the only reason I was going to the meeting was to see the expression on
>>Mike Rinder's face when I tell them that I contacted law enforcement the
>>day Bob lied and that other people knew what was really going on.

>> 15. Later that Sunday evening I met with Stacy and Bob at the
>>Radisson hotel on Bellaire Beach. They were staying in room 502. When I got
>>up there Bob had a stack of papers in is hand and said he had something he
>>had to show me. He read something that was totally incomprehensible to me
>>and said that what this means is judge Schaeffer did not trust me as a
>>witness and there was nothing I could do to help Ken with the wrongful
>>

>>[page 12]


>>
>>death case. He said unless I change my testimony, Judge Schaeffer was going

>>to put me in jail. Things got a bit heated between Bob and me because I
>>told him I had no testimony that I needed to change. Stacy suggested that

>>we all go downstairs for dinner and continue the conversation. When we got
>>downstairs I mentioned that we had talked enough together and it was time I
>>sat down and met with the Scientologist. Bob said no, I was not ready for
>>that because I needed to walk with he and Stacy down this road first. At
>>that point I realized I was not going to see a Scientologist that night so
>>I had better try to say or do something to get my friends to stop lying for
>>Scientology. I told them of two specific instances of when I had agreed to
>>negotiate with Scientology but they never ever held up their end of the
>>bargain and each time my life was ruined by them anyway. I told them I
>>thought they were negotiating with the devil. I reminded them about the
>>secretary of a Scientology private investigator named John Porter calling
>>me and I put her in touch with Ray Emmons because she said she was in
>>meetings with Mr. Porter and Scientology people where they planned months
>>before in great detail how they were going to get me busted for marijuana.
>>She even told me how they planned on planting seeds in my back yard. This
>>information had been given to Bob when I found out about it. I was not the
>>person who discussed what the secretary said, Mr. Ray Emmons did. Bob
>>Minton was the one who told me about them putting the seeds on my back
>>porch. I told them they were making a big mistake. Bob told me that I was
>>the one making a mistake but if I walked down this road with them they
>>would hire an attorney for me and everything would be okay. Both he and
>>Stacy Brooks told me of a new life where we would all live in happiness and

>>prosperity. I exploded at that point and told them the truth. I told them

>>from the very beginning when Bob started to lie I called law enforcement
>>and told them the whole story. I told them they were the ones who were

>>screwed. Bob told me I was going to jail and I should leave, and I did. My

>>two best friends have been backed into a corner due to the unlawful
>>discovery practices of Scientology which was allowed to go on and on by the
>>lower courts. The fact that there has been plenty of illegal discovery
>>allowed into Mr. Minton, the LMT and Mr. Dandar on financial matters has
>>been acknowledged by the
>>

>>[page 13]
>>
>>appeals courts only recently. In effect, if the law had been correctly
>>interpreted and applied these matters would have never been an issue. As

>>a result, my friends are being blackmailed and coerced and are now lying
>>for Scientology with the hope of getting Scientology out of their lives

>>forever. I invite the court to look at the introduction to the "harassment

>>time track" authored by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks and reconcile what was
>>written then against what they are doing now and have mercy on them both.
>>

>>FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NOT.
>>
>> ________________________
>_______
>> JESSE PRINCE
>>
>>
>> BEFORE ME, personally appeared JESSE PRINCE, to me well known to be
>>the person described in and who executed the foregoing instrument and who
>>acknowledged having executed same for the uses and purposes therein set
>>forth.
>>
>> WITNESS my hand and official seal at ________________ Florida, this
>>____ day of May, 2002.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>___
>> NOTARY PUBLIC
>> My commission expires:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______
>> J.P.
>>
>>[page 14]
>


--
"Mr Minton was questioned by attorney's for the dead woman's family
on three areas where the cult may have threatened him with lawsuit
or prosecution, but there was only one upon which he took the fifth
amendment: whether Cof$ threatened to report him for tax evasion."
alt.religion.scientology<tTDpR5Il...@xemu.demon.co.uk>2002apr28

Cambridge

unread,
May 4, 2002, 5:44:21 PM5/4/02
to
On 04 May 2002 in
message <kph7dukqfe5nn7cn2...@4ax.com>

<ptsc AT nym DOT cryptofortress DOT com> wrote:

>On Sat, 4 May 2002 07:25:14 +0200 (CEST), Cambridge
><camb...@ivy.league> wrote:
>
>>1. Mr. Prince said: "RTC owns the trademarks of Scientology... . RTC is
>>also the senior corporate entity of all Scientology or Scientology
>>related organizations internationally."
>
>>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>>foundation?
>
>I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

That seems prudent.

>>2. Mr. Prince said: "At [a] picket and in my presence, members of
>>Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and relayed
>>detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist."
>
>>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>>foundation?
>
>Yes. Foundation is that this information was then posted to ars.

Unless you can correct me, I believe that what was "posted to ars" was an
outline of Mr. Minton's psychiatric history only in terms of various
institutions and psychiatrists. Mr. Prince's statement concerning the
street-theatre was: "detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his
psychiatrist." Perhaps you could manage to get a secure grasp on what is
being discussed prior to attempting to discuss it. That always is
enormously helpful. And that statement by Mr. Prince is what
ka...@wwwaif.net characterized as having "the ring of truth."

Since you have appointed yourself her advocate in order to lay a foundation
for her brash endorsement, then I ask you: how could OSA have obtained
"detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist"?

Not to leave you with a dumfounded expression on your face, perhaps we can
approach it by multiple choice:

1. Bob Minton had the extreme bad fortune to retain a psychiatrist who is
enamored of Scientology, or perhaps even a secret "OSA op," and the
psychiatrist jeopardized his entire career to risk sneaking copies of Mr.
Minton's intimate psychiatric revelations to OSA so OSA could make a great
public show on the streets of having illegally received those records so
everyone could know that OSA and Mr. Minton's psychiatrist were running yet
another op on the beleaguered man.

2. Bob Minton had the extreme bad fortune to retain a psychiatrist so
apathetic to his interests that the good Dr. did not bother to immediately
file criminal charges and launch a police investigation after OSA
black-baggers broke into his offices in the dead of night and stole just
Mr. Minton's recent psychiatric revelations, then made a great public show
on the streets of having stolen those records so the psychiatrist and the
police and everyone else could know that it was OSA black-baggers who had
committed felony burglary and stolen Mr. Minton's records and were now
running yet another op on the beleaguered man.

3. Bob Minton needed more sensationalistic fodder for stirring up sympathy
and support and deflecting criticism from himself, Stacy, and the LMT, so
the ridiculous and impossible lie was dreamed up entirely by the perjuring
"victim" and his perjuring friends and put into Mr. Prince's affidavit.

Upon which of these plots would you care to lay your foundation for OSA
having "detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist"? Or
will you now attempt to prepare the ground with the "OSA could have"
bulldozer?

>It was also the basis of a sworn affidavit by Minton himself.

Pardon me, but is this the same Mr. Minton to whom you have referred in
recent days as telling "despicable lies," as recanting "any pretense he
ever had to integrity," as having "committed perjury in sworn testimony,"
as "lying in order to falsely implicate others," as being guilty of "a
vicious, perjurious smear-job"?

But since you raised the issue of the posting, it was, as I said, nothing
more than a brief outline of Bob Minton's psychiatric history. So, it was
posted by whom? And of course I am not asking for the false identity on the
throwaway Hotmail account.

Ah, you don't know, do you?

Shall we go through the tedium of multiple choice again to discover for
ourselves who would most likely and easily have access to that information
in order to publish it anonymously, thereby garnering tidal waves of
anguished sympathy and support?

If you don't object, I don't believe I will waste my time.

>>3. Mr. Prince said: "At the request of Bob Minton, [I] traveled to the
>>office of Ken Dandar in February 2002 to relay to Ken Dandar that if Ken
>>could get the Internet critics of Bob Minton to stop posting criticism of
>>Bob and if Ken would quit meeting with Patricia Greenway, Bob would try
>>to arrange to have his friends loan additional funds to Ken Dandar."
>
>>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>>foundation? How could this be independently verified, since, if any
>>meeting of any description between the "affiant," Mr. Prince, and the
>>attorney, Mr. Dandar, actually did occur, it would be protected by
>>privilege relevant to Dandar and matters of immediate concern to his
>>clients and their suit?
>
>My foundation for that one is unavailable. However, Deana Holmes
>had commented at least privately to a number of people that this had
>occurred, and Minton himself has admitted to this grotesque misconduct
>on his own part.

Unfortunately what is being described by Mr. Prince, as I recently
indicated to Tigger on this precise point, goes far beyond "grotesque
misconduct." It reaches the federal felony of "Conspiracy against rights,"
Title 18, Sec. 241 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/241.html

In the instant case, based on the statements of Deana Holmes and Tigger, it
appears to involve at least two counts. Not only are Mr. Dandar, Mr.
Prince, and Mr. Minton implicated in so conspiring, but Ms. Holmes, at
least, has now implicated an as-yet-unnamed other person who she says
delivered the message of the conspiracy of oppression against her free
exercise of guaranteed rights. And of course there are the mysterious
wealthy "friends" or the "Fat Man," whichever flavor of fiction is to your
personal taste.

These are immeasurably grave allegations being made by Mr. Prince, which
ka...@wwwaif.net, and now you, persuade us to believe have "the ring of
truth."

>>4. Mr. Prince said: "On or around March 20, 2002, [I] called Mr. Minton
>>at his home in NH to see how he was doing," then Mr. Prince went on to
>>relay his hearsay account of Mr. Minton's alleged description of alleged
>>threats by unidentified "Scientology operatives" against Mr. Minton's
>>wife and children.
>
>>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>>foundation? How could this be verified or corroborated, other than by Mr.
>>Minton, an admitted perjurer, or by phone records unavailable without
>>subpoena?
>
>I think Minton said it. I think he also said other similar things.

Pardon me, but is this the same Mr. Minton to whom you have referred in
recent days as telling "despicable lies," as recanting "any pretense he
ever had to integrity," as having "committed perjury in sworn testimony,"
as "lying in order to falsely implicate others," as being guilty of "a
vicious, perjurious smear-job"?

Why, exactly, do you keep calling on this man for your "foundation"? Is
there some reason for your almost masochistic self-impeachment?

>>7. Mr. Prince repeatedly misspelled Gerry Armstrong's name as "Jerry
>>Armstrong."
>
>>Does this have "the ring of truth" to you, and if so, what is your
>>foundation?
>
>I think Prince misspells things. So fucking what? I've seen him
>misspell other things, too. There is no "ring of truth" to be had in
>the spelling of a name.

Why, yes, sometimes questions have no significance whatsoever. Except, of
course, that some are excellent calipers with which to compass the breadth
of an individual's critical thinking skills, including the ability to
evaluate data on a hierarchy of importance. You may find this impossible to
believe, but some people will actually latch onto the most insignificant
details, while relegating things of the magnitude of, say, federal felonies
to "misconduct." Innocuous and unimportant questions often reveal such
intellectual and critical thinking handicaps.

>As for the rest of these questions, it's a witness narrative.

Isn't it though.

>It has to do with what was perceived by the person in question.

Or, alternatively, it has to do with what the person in question wants
others to perceive, whether there is truth in the created perception or
not. That seditious and devious purpose for "affidavits" has been verified
conclusively now by the ever-so-poignant testimony of Ms. Stacy Young.

>If I had personal knowledge of the matters therein contained, I would not
>need an affidavit in the first place. So I don't know what this bullshit
>is about demanding "foundation" for what amounts to a gut feeling.

Yes, that comes through quite clearly. And thank you.

Cambridge


ptsc

unread,
May 4, 2002, 6:37:15 PM5/4/02
to
On Sat, 4 May 2002 23:44:21 +0200 (CEST), Cambridge <camb...@ivy.league>
wrote:

Re psychs: none of your 3.

4) simply walked right in and stole the paperwork.

It's not like a psychiatrist's office is exactly a high-security facility.

Alternately, the psych was stupid and threw away confidential client
information without shredding it first. Go for the simplest possible
explanation, these ideas of "OSA psychiatrists" is a little ridiculous.

ptsc

Birgitta

unread,
May 4, 2002, 7:25:38 PM5/4/02
to
CL ... please

Have mercy on me and thanks for not spitting. It's ok to curse :-)

No small things you are asking me to do .... English is not my native
language as you might have noticed.

Anyway ... I have been curious about this CST thing since early 1983
when I were on the DPF in Denmark and I saw two issues with the exact
same text and datum but issued from different sources. The first one
was from "General Inspectors Network" and the second one from
"Religious Technology Center". Next day the one from "GIN" was never
to be seen again and the network never heard of (as far as I know).
My understanding of the text was that it gave information about a new
management and the creation of a new network to ensure the purity of
tech. (I think the datum was November of 1982 on the issues).

Next instance was when I arrived to L.A. (Special Unit) in April of
1983. I was helping some lawyers there with typing and changing the
names on older board minutes regarding SMI (Scn Missions Int.) and one
day I happened to see the new org.board.
There was this mysterious name CST again, that nobody actually talked
about. I typed a copy of, at the time, new org.board, which I still
have in my possession.

No, I have never been disdainful when it comes to the subject of CST.

If I had been able to get a clue - I can promise you that it had been
posted on a.r.s.
I was actually in the middle of all this corporate stuff, but the
doors were very closed behind the different units. I guess only the
three lawyers I met the very first day had the full picture. I think
one of them was Henning Heldt.

Bid

Tigger

unread,
May 4, 2002, 8:25:02 PM5/4/02
to
Date: Sat, May 4, 2002, 11:44pm (CDT+7) From: camb...@ivy.league
(Cambridge)asks: asks:

(snip)

>Upon which of these plots would you
> care to lay your foundation for OSA
> having "detailed information of Bob's
> recent visit to his psychiatrist"? Or will
> you now attempt to prepare the ground
> with the "OSA could have" bulldozer?

Well, I am only speaking for myself, Tigger, but I think I pick No. 3
with qualifications.

>3. Bob Minton needed more
> sensationalistic fodder for stirring up
> sympathy and support and deflecting
> criticism from himself, Stacy, and the
> LMT, so the ridiculous and impossible
> lie was dreamed up entirely by the
> perjuring "victim" and his perjuring
> friends and put into Mr. Prince's
> affidavit.

What Jesse said without your snipping:
Quote:


"4. Affiant was picketing at the Boston Org of Scientology

years ago with Bob Minton. At this picket and in my presence, members


of Scientology's Office of Special Affairs confronted Bob Minton and
relayed detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his psychiatrist.

This greatly concerned Bob because his psychiatrist's information was
strictly confidential. Bob Minton acts irrational when not on his
medication. Bob's psychiatrist then discharged Bob as his patient when

Bob confronted the psychiatrist." Unquote

It would help if we knew the date this was supposed to have happened.
But taking into consideration:

1. Bob is known for his hot temper and being irrational, so it has the
ring of truth that if this did happen, he would have blown up, accused
his psychiatrist of dire misconduct and Bob fires the psych or the
psych tells him to find another psych.

2. Stacy is known to be manipulative. If the psych had been telling
Bob he needed to give up Stacy or the Scn. gig, and return to his family
or even if Stacy needed some therapy too, Stacy would have probably
wanted to get rid of the psych. If Bob liked his psych and wouldn't
give him up, what would a former OSA operative do? Might she covertly
get copies of Minton's files to OSA? How many psychs has Bob had since
he's hooked up with Stacy?

3. Bob and/or Stacy have cooked up some interesting tales such as the
Dorian adventure and the CAN spy without verifiable proof. Yes Henson
and Jimdbbb are positive that Jolie/Laura was a OSA spy but no one has
ever produced any real proof, not even the telephone records which
Minton claimed to have, have they?

RE: the CAN spy: Was it a way to show that "CAN deserved to die"
because it was so badly managed, Cynthia Kisser couldn't recognize a OSA
spy when she saw one. But lo and behold Minton rides to the rescue to
expose the culprit.

RE: DORIAN: This one wasn't even a bad movie for tv plot. Maybe
Minton was off his meds and thought he was James Bond?

4. The "Bob's psych said it would be harmful for Bob's health if he
went to Florida for a court ordered deposition but the psych is too
scared of Scientology to say so" post by Stacy. We only have Stacy's
word on this and we all know how Stacy lies. Did a psychiatrist say
this? Did Minton even have a psychiatrist at the time?

So looking at past history, I could see Stacy's hand being all over the
OSA getting Minton's psych records and Bob Minton and Jesse Prince being
fooled into thinking that the psych was to blame. After all she
persuaded Minton that Grenway and Caberta were lying and she was telling
the truth.

Cerridwen

unread,
May 4, 2002, 10:00:47 PM5/4/02
to
Re: Jesse Prince Affidavit April 2002

"Cambridge" <camb...@ivy.league> wrote in message
news:6791e51bd0128d22...@remailer.segfault.net...

[SNIP]


>
> Upon which of these plots would you care to lay your foundation for
>OSA having "detailed information of Bob's recent visit to his
>psychiatrist"? Or will you now attempt to prepare the ground with
>the "OSA could have" bulldozer?


See
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/SecrServ/media/bg310583.htm


"The activities that Dardano and Friske alleged in interviews,
affidavits, depositions or other sworn testimony that they and others
were involved with on behalf of the church include:

The burglary of the Belmont office of a psychiatrist in 1975 in order
to steal the doctor's files on one of his patients, who had written a
book highly critical of Scientology."

A search on google " Scientology + break in + psychiatrist" will get
you to the data re: The C of S stealing files from Paulette Cooper's
psychiatrist.

Cerridwen


Frog3

unread,
May 5, 2002, 12:50:46 AM5/5/02
to
Where did you learn to write so badly?

Same place where you learned to think like an idiot I suppose?

Nob Odie

unread,
May 4, 2002, 11:25:52 PM5/4/02
to
Where did you learn to write so badly?

Same place where you learned to think like an idiot I suppose?


On Sat, 4 May 2002, camb...@ivy.league wrote:

CL

unread,
May 5, 2002, 7:36:22 PM5/5/02
to

Birgitta <xe...@post.netlink.se> wrote:

>CL ... please
>
>Have mercy on me and thanks for not spitting. It's ok to curse :-)

I'll try to keep it down anyway. I can get a little worked up. I mean,
when I need to. :-)

>No small things you are asking me to do .... English is not my native
>language as you might have noticed.

Oops. Sorry. Okay, well, I was over the top, anyway. But my basic point
was simply that these central people--Stacy Brooks, Gerry Armstrong, and
Larry Wollersheim--have been the core of a larger (and varying) group
going out in ripples around them who have been on a very dedicated and
organized campaign to make DM and RTC the focus of all attention, TO THE
EXCLUSION OF CST. And the three of them have proven, solid, known ties
to each other. I think I at least made the point, and it is thoroughly
proven by the record.

>Anyway ... I have been curious about this CST thing since early 1983
>when I were on the DPF in Denmark and I saw two issues with the exact
>same text and datum but issued from different sources. The first one
>was from "General Inspectors Network" and the second one from
>"Religious Technology Center". Next day the one from "GIN" was never
>to be seen again and the network never heard of (as far as I know).

You say early 1983? That is ~very~ interesting, because the "Inspector
General Network" was not incorporated--Sherman Lenske involved, of
course--until 24 October 1984. That's close to two years later. This
seems to have at least some consistency with something brought up in
that "Lost and Found" document (that nobody will even mention)
concerning the corporations being planned far in advance of their legal
activation.

But it's even weirder than ~that,~ because, from the available records,
it seems that the corporation was incorporated in October 1984 as
"Hubbard Dianetics Foundation," and didn't have its name changed to
"Inspector General Network" until 11 June 1985, which adds another half
year to the approximate date when you say you saw an issue from
something with that name.

This is very, very curious, and is going down in the timeline data.
Thanks!

>My understanding of the text was that it gave information about a new
>management and the creation of a new network to ensure the purity of
>tech. (I think the datum was November of 1982 on the issues).

Hoho! So that pushes the name back even earlier! So there ~is~ a pattern
of these worms planning things far in advance. But, boy, have you ever
rung the bell with that November 1982 date! Of course the "Special
Directors" had just installed themselves for life at CST about five
months before, but NOVEMBER of 1982 is very significant becauset that's
when Ronald DeWolf, as a client of Flynn, filed his probate challenge to
gain receivership of Hubbard's estate, and lots of press started
hitting that L. Ron Hubbard was dead or incapcitated. And that's what
led, about six months later, to the Treasury Department and Sherman
Lenske grandstanding with Treasury Department-certified evidence that L.
Ron Hubbard was "alive and well and in control of his affairs."

>Next instance was when I arrived to L.A. (Special Unit) in April of
>1983.

Oh, did ~you~ ever ring the bell again!

Mary Sue Hubbard had just been sent to do her time in "prison" (most
likely Club Psych) a few months before, and UPI had hit with a story
about a "a new group of young leaders" emerging "with a plan to purge
what it calls deviationists from the ranks," touting David Miscavige as
some new charismatic leader. And then in February, the Treasury
Department and Lenske trotted out their first letters "proving" that
Hubbard was alive and well. Oh, this is fascinating.

But April! April is ~just~ before Sherman Lenske came storming into the
court with the May 1983 Treasury Department-certified DECLARATION by "L.
Ron Hubbard" in which "Hubard" said he had retained "all commercial
rights" in the trademarks that had been "given" to RTC.

Where was this particular brand of "Special Unit" set up in L.A.? Did it
happen to be at 1301 North Catalina Street, and were Stacy and/or Vaughn
Young there? I ask, because that's where she later incorporated "North
Star Publishing," and I've been speculating that that's where the
"Hubbard Archives" were being kept by Lenske and CST, and that Stacy and
Vaughn had very close ties to the Lenskes and CST. This is pure
guesswork at this point, but Armstrong says he had moved the archives to
"L.A. to work with Hubbard lawyers," and I'm still trying to nail down
where they were.

>I was helping some lawyers there

Oh, please, please try to remember or find some record of who these
lawyers were!

>with typing and changing the names on older board minutes regarding SMI
>(Scn Missions Int.) and one day I happened to see the new org.board.
>There was this mysterious name CST again, that nobody actually talked
>about. I typed a copy of, at the time, new org.board, which I still
>have in my possession.

Okay, damn it, you're just being downright cruel now. PLEASE get it
scanned or typed out in ASCII and posted.

Girl! How can you be hoarding this critical data?!

>No, I have never been disdainful when it comes to the subject of CST.

Sorry. I was dead wrong. I apologize, recant, and repent.

>If I had been able to get a clue - I can promise you that it had been
>posted on a.r.s.

Well, what about that org board?!?! (Okay, you're going to have me
spitting here again in a minute.)

>I was actually in the middle of all this corporate stuff, but the
>doors were very closed behind the different units. I guess only the
>three lawyers I met the very first day had the full picture.

THREE lawyers? Can't you possibly remember any of their names?

>I think one of them was Henning Heldt.

According to several sources, Heldt (and other GO personnel) had been
the subject of a Comm Ev, 6439, that had been held and published in
October 1981 in which all were found guilty across the board and were
busted (to what I don't know) or resigned. What I don't understand is
why Heldt would have even been around at all, since he was a convicted
felon who had actually served jail time, and that made him not only a
PTS Type ineligible for any further training or processing, but also
disqualified him for the Sea Org.

Yet you say he was hobnobbing (associating with, working with) the
highest levels of the top corporate lawyers in mid 1983? If you can
confirm this, you might have rung the biggest bell of all.

Please, please post that org board, whatever it takes.

Birgitta

unread,
May 8, 2002, 6:40:17 PM5/8/02