Sabaean references sorely wanted
Alexander
Is there anyone who can tell me in what ways modern Sabaeans differ from the
Sabaeans of old?????
>The Nabatheans are a sect almost identical in their beliefs with the
>Nazarenes and Sabeans, who had more reverence for John the Baptist than for
>Jesus. Maimonides identifies them with the astrolaters. . . . "Respecting
>the beliefs of the Sabeans", he says, "the most famous is the book, The
>agriculture of the Nabatheans". And we know that the Ebionites, the first of
>whom were the
>friends and relatives of Jesus, according to tradition, in other words, the
>earliest and first Christians, "were the direct followers and disciples of
>the Nazarene sect", according to Epiphanius and Theodoret (See the Contra
>Ebionites of Epiphanius, and also
>"Galileans" and "Nazarenes").
>
>You might like to look under :Chaldean star-worshipers II 452-3
> giants of Midian II 755-6
> Masoudi on II 453
> of Mt Lebanon, doctrines of II 455n
> occult brotherhood II 455
>
>
Momus
"Alexander" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:xvcx5.6255$F9.2...@news.corecomm.net...
> In article <t2Rw5.5288$F9.1...@news.corecomm.net>, "Nemesis"
<Pe...@syriac.com> wrote:
> Is there anyone who can tell me in what ways modern Sabaeans differ from
the
> Sabaeans of old?????
Alexander review the following quote and if you have any further questions
we can go from there.
(Quote from: Fourth Edition "Encyclopedia of American Religions " I SAR/)
The Sabaean Religious Order is a continuation of an Afro-Mediterranean
religion that dates from prehistoric times to Ancient Sumer, Babylon and
Egypt. Frederic M. de Arechaga [now Odun] and his mother opened the Sabaean
center in Chicago with the temple of Am'n. Its purpose is to study and
research Sabaeanism as well as to celebrate its festivals and rites so as to
be spared for posterity. This is the first Sabaean temple to be opened since
the temple of the moon was closed in Harran in the sixth century by the then
reigning Islam. The Chicago temple and its congregation has been in effect
ever since.
"Sabaeanism" means "from Saba". Saba, is both the names of an ancient city
and an ancient Egyptian word found both in hieroglyphics and in Arabic. Saba
(Arabic) means a star, rising or coming forth. The Egyptian or ~ (sb8)
meaning is "star," or to emanate from a center point of light like a star.
In fact, with the invention of writing in Sumer, the cuneiform is the same
as this hieroglyphic of a star and was of the first sign to mean god in any
written language.
The Sabaeans believe in the concept of AM'N an unusual and
un-anthropomorphic idea, which is both plural and singular in number and
implies "the hidden". Therefore "divinity" to a Sabaean is both genderless
and awesome. The religion is described as "henotheistic" - or rather
"kathenotheistic," which is the belief in a "personal god with out the
exclusion of any other, sometimes emphasizing one supreme at a time without
denying the rest".
In symbolic or poetic imagery Am'n is referred to in the feminine and/or in
four different colors. It is also associated with the four races of
humanity, the seasonal stations and the major colors of the spectrum. Thus
the winter is the White goddess, the spring, the Blue goddess, the summer,
the Yellow goddess and the fall the Red goddess. There are two "New Years
Days" acknowledged by Sabaeans, the Autumnal Equinox, which is the
pontifical beginning, and the Vernal Equinox, the secular celebration.
Following the influence of ancient Roman tradition, the common New Year
(December 31-January 1) is also celebrated not as a New Year, but rather as
the ending of the Saturnalia which starts December 17 till December 31 at
midnight.
Beside the main body of "four" symbols there is also the image of The
Warriors, they are a trinity headed by the "trickster," the two faced Janus
like god which always begins the year and is the entity of the communication
between gods and men. Its festival is usually around January 6th, about the
perihelion of the earth.
Astronomy and astrology are very important to the Sabaean system, not so
much as a divinatory tool, but as a relevance of position. Sabaean temples
and shrines are usually sidereally oriented. Not only to the rising and
passing of the sun and the moon, but sometimes other planets and
constellations as well. The precession of the equinoxes are observed and the
zodiacal calculations are corrected to these phenomena with true sidereal
computation.
Marriages are called eclipses and are designed for a specific period of time
at the end of which the couple can either re-eclipse or part their ways. The
standard marriage contract is considered a partnership of possessions and it
is imperative to sign at an eclipse. However, if the couple part at the end
of their eclipse then this contract must be met with proper judicious courts
of law, as it has nothing further to do with the eclipse or the religion.
Sabaeanism is inherently matriarchal as the lineage extends from the mother.
However unlike its predecessors it primarily identifies with the brothers
and sisters as they are truly of the same blood. The mother is considered
the matrix or source and is certainly honored for that function. It is
certainly obvious who the mother is, but it is very difficult to prove who
the father was.
The Sabaean Religious Order headquarters is in Chicago where its Temple of
Am'n is located. The group has run an occult store, " El-Sabarum," since
1968. For several years the group has also issued a periodical, "Sabaean
Chronicles" which is the result of previous periodicals, formerly known as,
" Iris" and "Janus". The Sabaean Chronicles are usually printed on a
quarterly basis relative to the passing of the seasons.
The Sabaean Religious Order occasionally writes and produces pagan mystery
plays and trains a troupe of dancers called "hierodules" (temple servants)
in different dances and pantomimes which use ancient Egyptian dance
movements. It also has a small group of musicians that train on drum and
bata for the festivals and supplement for the electronic keyboard original
compositions.
Momus
"Alexander" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:xvcx5.6255$F9.2...@news.corecomm.net...
> In article <t2Rw5.5288$F9.1...@news.corecomm.net>, "Nemesis"
<Pe...@syriac.com> wrote:
> Is there anyone who can tell me in what ways modern Sabaeans differ from
the Sabaeans of old?????
from Margot Adler'sDrawing down the moon: witches, druids,
goddess-worshippers, and other pagans in America today, revised and expanded
(Beacon: Boston 1986) atheism
258, 259, 288, 336
[re. the Sabaean Religious Order, Temple of the Moon, Chicago]
The Am'n [deity/ies] are also used to represent five aspects of
philosophy -- logic, aesthetics, ethics, politics, and metaphysics -- and
five aspects of theology -- atheism, pantheism, polytheism, monotheism, and
henotheism. The Sabaean Religious Order adheres to henotheism as the most
inclusive. A henotheist is [a] person who worships one god without excluding
the existence of others." ... "Atheism seems to relate to logic (the idea
that this is this and that is that). At the point when a person realizes
that there is a form and a movement to things, this brings about a sense of
aesthetics and leads a person to pantheism (the feeling of a tree, of a
flower, of the wind). ..."Odun [aka Frederic de Arechaga] said that one
could be an atheist and still be a Sabaean, although, later, an atheist
woman told me that she had left the order because she felt that her views
were too far removed from the general conceptions of the priesthood. 258-9
Hobbitt
Sabaean Newsgroup again, I haven't seen too many posts in a long time. My
circle has always enjoyed the Sabaean Solstice Festivals. We have been to a
number of them and have learned a great deal. No doubt there is high magic
going on in there! My wife has had the honor of having the high priest
speak Odun at 2 of her gatherings . I don't usually post too much, but I
wanted to make this public, its important not to miss it. In the 60's when I
first came to a Solstice gathering that Odun had, I could see he knew his
stuff, and what is cool is that you guys really make an effort on
researching and education.
Keep it Up , and Keep the Faith, Bob
****** The Dark Crystal That Shines Forth Will Illuminate the Way *****
Alexander <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:xvcx5.6255$F9.2...@news.corecomm.net...
> In article <t2Rw5.5288$F9.1...@news.corecomm.net>, "Nemesis"
<Pe...@syriac.com> wrote:
> Is there anyone who can tell me in what ways modern Sabaeans differ from
the
> Sabaeans of old?????
>
>
alexande...@my-deja.com
"Momus" <mo...@I-beg-to-differ.com> wrote:
>
> "Alexander" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:xvcx5.6255$F9.2...@news.corecomm.net...
> > In article <t2Rw5.5288$F9.1...@news.corecomm.net>, "Nemesis"
> <Pe...@syriac.com> wrote:
> (Quote from: Fourth Edition "Encyclopedia of American Religions " I
SAR/)
>
> The Sabaean Religious Order is a continuation of an Afro-Mediterranean
> religion that dates from prehistoric times to Ancient Sumer, Babylon
Is there a direct lineage to the ancient Sabaeans?????
If so in what ways??
In what way do the Mandeans (also descendants of the ancient Sabaean)
figure into the American branch of Sabaeanism?
What relationship does the Lukumi have with ancient Sabeans?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
aj...@my-deja.com
I may be of some help in the Mandaean area of the who the
ancient “Sabaeans” are:
Both the Sabians and the Nasoraeans were the Mandaeans simply given
different names. They are close in connection to the Ebonite—in a way
are a more Christian form of the Mandaean theology. The Chaldeans in
Harran took the name Sabian to protect themselves under Islamic law.
These Harranians were star and planet worshippers as well as
sacrificing animal and human life. The Mandaeans (Sabians, Nasoraeans)
have no connection to these people and do not worship stars or planets
or practice sacrifice. Unfortunately through the ages the Harranian
having a better public relations agenda was able to supplant the
Mandaeans as the Sabians of the Quran thus becoming the Sabaeans. But
in the ancient Islamic authors we still find references to the true
Sabians the Mandaeans.
The only connection modern Sabaeanism has to the ancient Sabaeans is
through the practice of the Harranians and other Mesopotamian cities.
But as far as the term Sabaean once again the term was taken under a
mistaken identity—a more correct term might be Chaldean or Harranian to
describe the ancient star/ planet worshippers.
AJAE
Mandaean World Web Site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8522/mandaeanworld.html
Mandaean World Research E-Group
http://www.egroups.com/group/MandaeanWorldResearch
Mandaean Forum open to all
http://www0.delphi.com/mandaeans/
Mandaean World
Please inquire if you are a Mandaean
In article <xvcx5.6255$F9.2...@news.corecomm.net>,
nob...@nowhere.com (Alexander) wrote:
> In article <t2Rw5.5288$F9.1...@news.corecomm.net>, "Nemesis"
<Pe...@syriac.com> wrote:
tomm...@my-deja.com
sal.htm
This is just one of many references I have found
on Sabaeanism
Sabean, Sabaean, Sabian, Sabianism [from Hebrew
tsaba host, army, celestial hosts] A name given
by the Shemitic peoples to those who worship the
spiritual beings in the universe; and because the
celestial bodies were the most evident
manifestations of some classes of these spiritual
beings, this religion naturally became confused
with the worship of the celestial bodies
themselves as the dwellings or mansions of the
regents above, in, and behind the visible orbs.
Hence the Sabeans were called astrolaters or star-
worshipers; but it was not the physical bodies of
the celestial orbs which were worshiped, but the
spiritual entities, powers, or spirits which
ensouled these orbs. This was one of the very
archaic religions of the human race, found all
over the globe in various forms; and in its
origins Sabianism was undoubtedly an outpouring
of occult teaching from the archaic Mysteries.
The word Sabean itself has come down to us mainly
through Greek and Latin writers, but so
thoroughly imbued were the ancient Hebrews with
this idea of the celestial hosts or cosmic
spirits that the Bible is full of references
where the context even wrongly endows the
celestial hosts with the properties of the Most
High God, and it has been so understood by
Christian theologians; forgetting, however, that
manifested deities, however high, are but the
manifestations of the infinite and ineffable
Mystery or parabrahman, from which all the
celestial hosts flow or emanate. Thus not only
ancient and modern Judaism, but Christianity
itself, is filled with the thought of the ancient
Sabeans.
Sabeanism was unquestionably the main religious
belief of the ancient Chaldeans and Assyrians,
but likewise the very foundation stone of
practically all the great religions of all the
great peoples of the past. Upon the authority of
the Jewish scholar Maimonides, scholars have
considered the Sabeans as an ancient race whose
principal religion was that of star-worship and
closely affiliated with the Babylonians and
Syrians. But the Sabeans were not a race, but
those who followed and practiced the divine
astrological astrolatry of the hoariest
antiquity. Mohammed in the Koran mentions a sect
between the Jews and Christians called Sabi una --
to whom certain privileges were granted; older
Moslem theologians were agreed that the Sabeans
possessed manuscripts which they regarded in the
light of a revelation, and the Mandeans came
under the same protection granted to the Sabeans;
hence the Mandeans also came to be regarded as
Sabeans. Another sect of polytheists, the
Harranians (830 AD), also affiliated with the
Sabeans and shielded themselves under the same
privileges; they were a remnant of a Mesopotamian
cult, and star-worship had a prominent place in
their system.
Certain Arabian writers termed the Sabean
language the science of astronomy, but what we
now call astronomy was but a minor portion of
ancient astrolatry; they also state that Seth or
Set was the founder of Sabeanism, and that the
pyramids were regarded as the place of sepulture
of Seth or Agathodaimon. We see here confusion,
reductions of general principles to details, and
anthropomorphizations of cosmic principles.
Hermes is in many senses the same as Seth, and
the pyramids were consecrated to the regents of
the stars, rather than to the orbs (SD 2:362).
aj...@my-deja.com
I looked over the information you provided and I have a few comments
and observations: Please excuse the length.
tommyyh2 wrote:
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/sa-
sal.htm
This is just one of many references I have found
on Sabaeanism
My Response:
Yes there are many sources that try to explain just who the Sabeans
(ians) (aeans) are. It is a very complicated issue and depending on
who the author is the results will vary. Unfortunately I have found
very few sources that look at various Sabean (ian) (aean) sources to
get a really good idea on what is what.
The source quoted above is from The Theosophical Society founded in
1875. The selection featured here is from a book called the
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary that was originally written in the
1930s. The material quoted for the entry Sabeans results from the basic
knowledge of the Sabaeans and the Mandaeans at that time and formed
into an explanation that fits the framework of their society on just
what the Sabean theology must have been.
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
Sabean, Sabaean, Sabian, Sabianism [from Hebrew tsaba host, army,
celestial hosts] A name given by the Shemitic peoples to those who
worship the spiritual beings in the universe; and because the celestial
bodies were the most evident manifestations of some classes of these
spiritual beings, this religion naturally became confused
with the worship of the celestial bodies themselves as the dwellings or
mansions of the
regents above, in, and behind the visible orbs. Hence the Sabeans were
called astrolaters or starworshipers; but it was not the physical
bodies of the celestial orbs which were worshiped, but the spiritual
entities, powers, or spirits which ensouled these orbs. This was one of
the very archaic religions of the human race, found all over the globe
in various forms; and in its origins Sabianism was undoubtedly an
outpouring of occult teaching from the archaic Mysteries.
My Response:
The author of this selection confuses the words Sabean, Sabaean, and
Sabian assuming that they are all one in the same word. The word
Sabian – used for the Mandaeans, and the Sabians of the Qur’an, and
the Bahai’s Sabian, and even the false Sabaeans the Harranians all
come from a root meaning to baptize or dip. A completely different
word than the Hebrew word for Seba (saba).
The idea that the word sabean comes from the Hebrew word tsaba’ was
put forth in 1649 by E. Pocock. Let alone the fact that the word
Tsaba’ does not even refer to the Sabeans. A quick look at the Hebrew
lexicon shows that Tsaba' (#06635) means “that which goes forth,
army, war, warfare, host “ and comes from the word tsaba (#06633) which
means to go forth, wage war, fight, serve”. None of the Old Testament
passages refer to the word being used in any context with the Sabeans.
When we look into the Hebrew we find that the word Sabeans comes from
the word C@ba'iy or Sh@ba'iy both of which mean drunkards and refer to
the people of Saba. The idea that the term Sabeans comes from the
Hebrew tsaba’ which has as one meaning the army or host of star moon
and sun or creation comes from a desire to associate the word Sabean or
Sabaean with the Harranians in order to validate the claim of the
Sabaeans of Harran.
The word Sabeans as found in the Old Testament
C@ba'iy
#05436 Sabeans = C@ba'iy === "drunkards" which means the people of
Seba. This word comes from the word #05434 == seb-aw == Seba
= "drink thou" and means 1) a son of Cush or 2) a nation south of
Palestine, perhaps Ethiopia. This word is found in the following 2
passages:
Isa 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of
Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee,
…
Eze 23:42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and
with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the
wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns
upon their heads.
Sh@ba'iy
#07615 Sabeans = Sh@ba'iy ==== "drunkard" or "he who is coming" which
means the the people of the nation of Sheba. This word comes from #
07614 == Sh@ba' which means 1) son of Joktan and a descendant of Seth
== 2) son of Raamah, grandson of Cush, 3) son of Jokshan, the son of
Abraham by Keturah and 4) a nation in southern Arabia. The poassage
which refers to the Sabeans is
Joe 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of
the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a
people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
The word Sabean itself has come down to us mainly through Greek and
Latin writers, but so thoroughly imbued were the ancient Hebrews with
this idea of the celestial hosts or cosmic spirits that the Bible is
full of references where the context even wrongly endows the celestial
hosts with the properties of the Most High God, and it has been so
understood by Christian theologians; forgetting, however, that
manifested deities, however high, are but the manifestations of the
infinite and ineffable Mystery or parabrahman, from which all the
celestial hosts flow or emanate. Thus not only
ancient and modern Judaism, but Christianity itself, is filled with the
thought of the ancient Sabeans.
My Response:
The words Sabean (aean) when found in connection to the Harranians are
late in dates and show the confusion of Harranian and Mandaean
theologies. The word Sabian (aean), which existed before the Harranians
absorbed the name and before Mohammed, is not only found in Greek and
Latin early writers but also in Arab writers well before the 800 AD
mark when Harran adopted the term. Before this date many writers,
including those of Greek and Latin origin referred to the Harranians as
Harranians or Chaldaeans.
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
Sabeanism was unquestionably the main religious belief of the ancient
Chaldeans and Assyrians, but likewise the very foundation stone of
practically all the great religions of all the great peoples of the
past. Upon the authority of the Jewish scholar Maimonides, scholars
have considered the Sabeans as an ancient race whose principal religion
was that of star-worship and closely affiliated with the Babylonians
and Syrians. But the Sabeans were not a race, but those who followed
and practiced the divine astrological astrolatry of the hoariest
antiquity.
My Response:
Moses Maimonides is one of the best examples in how the Harranian
belief system was incorporated with that of the Mandaean (the true
Sabians) belief system. In his book his describes the Sabians in very
often-contradictory terms – these terms can be explained as two
different belief systems being meshed into one.
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
Mohammed in the Koran mentions a sect between the Jews and Christians
called Sabi una -- to whom certain privileges were granted; older
Moslem theologians were agreed that the Sabeans possessed manuscripts
which they regarded in the light of a revelation, and the Mandeans came
under the same protection granted to the Sabeans; hence the Mandeans
also came to be regarded as Sabeans. Another sect of polytheists, the
Harranians (830 AD), also affiliated with the Sabeans and shielded
themselves under the same privileges; they were a remnant of a
Mesopotamian cult, and star-worship had a prominent place in their
system.
My Response:
The Mandaeans did not come under the protection of Mohammed’s sabians—
they were the Sabians to whom Mohammed gave protection.
Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
Certain Arabian writers termed the Sabean language the science of
astronomy, but what we now call astronomy was but a minor portion of
ancient astrolatry; they also state that Seth or Set was the founder of
Sabeanism, and that the pyramids were regarded as the place of
sepulture of Seth or Agathodaimon. We see here confusion,
reductions of general principles to details, and anthropomorphizations
of cosmic principles. Hermes is in many senses the same as Seth, and
the pyramids were consecrated to the regents of the stars, rather than
to the orbs (SD 2:362).
My Response:
Once again in this section we see the contradictory statements because
of a confusion of two religions. The Mandaean form of “astrology” is
astronomy and those Arab writers that wrote of the Sabian astronomy
were correct. We also have the true astrology and planet worship of
the Harranians and those of wrote of the “Sabaeans” using astrology and
planet worship are also correct. We just need to keep the two
religions separate.
Seth is one of the main figures in Mandaean theology and this idea was
adopted by the Harranians. You do not find in any Harranian or
Chaldaean beliefs the notion of Seth or Abraham or Adam or one God
until they come into influence with the Mandaeans and they developed a
new form of worship implementing some of the old Harranian practices
with some of the new Mandaean ideas. Whereas as Hermes is not found
anywhere in Mandaean theology it is found in the later Harranian
beliefs after they are influenced by the Greek philosophies.
AJAE
Mandaean World Web Site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8522/mandaeanworld.html
Mandaean World Research E-Group
http://www.egroups.com/group/MandaeanWorldResearch
Mandaean Forum open to all
http://www0.delphi.com/mandaeans/
alexande...@my-deja.com
I have a question for you, by what authority or through what all knowing
,all powerfull source have you been made the determiner of what is true
and what is false, terms which you use in all your posts???? Can you
produce evidence to substantiate what is true and what is false???????
It is one thing to state your opinions based on your limited knowledge
and another to put your arrogant stamp of true and false based on it.
You say you are not our enemy???? Very strange way to prove it, would'nt
you say.
aj...@my-deja.com
In response to the questions you asked.
Alexander Monroe:
I have a question for you, by what authority or through what all
knowing ,all powerfull source have you been made the determiner of what
is true and what is false, terms which you use in all your posts????
My response:
The terms I use being that of false and true are in reference to the
Sabians—the true Sabians are the Mandaeans the False Sabaeans are the
Harranian.
Alexander Monroe wrote:
Can you produce evidence to substantiate what is true and what is
false???????
My response:
Documentation and references can be found in my article Sabeans,
Sabaeans and Sabians?
Alexander Monroe wrote:
It is one thing to state your opinions based on your limited knowledge
and another to put your arrogant stamp of true and false based on it.
My response:
I am only relaying information that is available to any researcher who
takes the time and energy to verify facts. I will not engage in name-
calling for it is counter productive and useless
Alexander Monroe wrote:
You say you are not our enemy???? Very strange way to prove it,
would'nt you say.
My response:
No—because I have nothing against you or your organization. I have
only put forth some evidence that sheds a different light on your use
of the term “Sabaean”. My posts are offered on a scholarly context and
not intended to be an me vs them debate on which religion is better.
AJAE
Mandaean World Web Site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8522/mandaeanworld.html
Mandaean World Research E-Group
http://www.egroups.com/group/MandaeanWorldResearch
slf...@my-deja.com
You did not answer the questions that Mr. Monroe asked. I too am
curious how you have become the authority to state which group of
Sabaeans (all spelling included)is valid. I have searched your web
site and searched Mandaean history and do see refrences made prior to
Islam. The people of Saba appear to be the true Sabaeans, since they
were living in Yeman before 1000 bce. Please read along I have marked
my questions within:
In article <8rgbam$p0p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
aj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hello to Alexander Monroe
>
> In response to the questions you asked.
>
> Alexander Monroe:
> I have a question for you, by what authority or through what all
> knowing ,all powerfull source have you been made the determiner of
what
> is true and what is false, terms which you use in all your posts????
>
> My response:
> The terms I use being that of false and true are in reference to the
> Sabians—the true Sabians are the Mandaeans the False Sabaeans are the
> Harranian.
SLF questions aje:
How is this an answer? The question is BY WHAT AUTHORITY do you make
this statement? It appears that you have given yourself the
authority.
> Alexander Monroe wrote:
> Can you produce evidence to substantiate what is true and what is
> false???????
>
> My response:
> Documentation and references can be found in my article Sabeans,
> Sabaeans and Sabians?
SLF's question to aje:
I have looked at your documentation and notice that you have avoided
refrences made by Greeks and Romans.
> Alexander Monroe wrote:
> It is one thing to state your opinions based on your limited knowledge
> and another to put your arrogant stamp of true and false based on it.
>
> My response:
> I am only relaying information that is available to any researcher who
> takes the time and energy to verify facts. I will not engage in name-
> calling for it is counter productive and useless
SLF's questoion to aje:
You relay information that is tainted with your prejudjice. The use
of "true" and "false" in refrence to two seperate groups of people is
not a scholarly way of stating your opinion. It will remain your
opinion since you obviously refuse to look at refrences thatpre-date
your precious Mandaean (or is it Nasorian, Sabian, Gnostic?)I have seen
refrences to them being closely related to all of those groups. Are
they false Gnostics or false Nasorians? Maybe they are the false
Sabians since they first called themselves Mandaeans.
But of course that is MY opinion....
> Alexander Monroe wrote:
> You say you are not our enemy???? Very strange way to prove it,
> would'nt you say.
>
> My response:
> No—because I have nothing against you or your organization. I have
> only put forth some evidence that sheds a different light on your use
> of the term “Sabaean”. My posts are offered on a scholarly context
and
> not intended to be an me vs them debate on which religion is better.
>
> AJAE
>
> Mandaean World Web Site
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8522/mandaeanworld.html
>
> Mandaean World Research E-Group
> http://www.egroups.com/group/MandaeanWorldResearch
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
SLF questions Aje:
You state that you are not a Mandean. Why are you carrying their cause
so savagely?
Maybe we should have trade marked the word back in the
days of Saba in all of the alphebets (who would have thought that the
barbaric Germanic tribes would have learned to use the roman aphabet?
And then corupt it!) and spellings (since the sabeaens like other
semetics did not use vowels)to insure that we
would not have another group with another language use our name.
I do not think that it is productive to state that one group is "true"
or "false", we do not claim that they stole our name and we do not call
them false either.
Please feel free to discuss scholarly topics.
aj...@my-deja.com
In response to your posting and questins:
slf_usa wrote:
Aje:
You did not answer the questions that Mr. Monroe asked. I too am
curious how you have become the authority to state which group of
Sabaeans (all spelling included)is valid. I have searched your web site
and searched Mandaean history and do see refrences made prior to Islam.
The people of Saba appear to be the true Sabaeans, since they were
living in Yeman before 1000 bce. Please read along I have marked my
questions within:
My Response:
The people of Seba are the Sabeans, which appears to be the group
referred to in the Old Testament. Are they also the Sabaeans? It
would appear not. One reason would be that the name Sabeans in Hebrew
means drunkard while the Sabians is from the root to baptize and maybe
a Mandaic (Mandaean language) word. There appears to be nothing that
links these two except for the similarity when the words are translated
into English. Just because two words sound similar in English is not
grounds to assume they mean the same—there must be more evidence
examined before a conclusion can be derived at. Can you demonstrate
evidence where a religion called Sabeanism was transferred northward
towards Harran before the birth of Jesus? Do not forget the root for
Sabian was already in place by the time of Jesus as a religious word
meaning to baptize.
slf_usa wrote:
SLF questions aje:
How is this an answer? The question is BY WHAT AUTHORITY do you make
this statement? It appears that you have given yourself the authority.
My Response:
To be honest those are silly questions intent on provoking anger and is
demeaning in itself. I have just as much rights and authority as you
have in your research. My conclusions are based on documented
references.
slf_usa wrote:
SLF's question to aje:
I have looked at your documentation and notice that you have avoided
refrences made by Greeks and Romans.
My Response;
For the purpose of this article Epiphanius and Eusebius are basically
the only ones needed. In my article The Pre-Christan Nasoraeans --
http://www.geocities.com/mandaeans/nasoraean.html -- I do use more
ancient writers that are concern with the Sabaeans (Sabians) to some
degree. If you have some specific writers that discuss the Sabeans or
Sabaeans or Sabians I would like to see what you use as documentation—
that way I can research this aspect in more depth.
slf_usa wrote:
SLF's questoion to aje:
You relay information that is tainted with your prejudjice. The use
of "true" and "false" in refrence to two seperate groups of people is
not a scholarly way of stating your opinion. It will remain your
opinion since you obviously refuse to look at refrences thatpre-date
your precious Mandaean (or is it Nasorian, Sabian, Gnostic?)I have seen
refrences to them being closely related to all of those groups. Are
they false Gnostics or false Nasorians? Maybe they are the false
Sabians since they first called themselves Mandaeans.
But of course that is MY opinion....
My Response:
My information is not tainted as you state it is simple facts based on
the research I have been in contact with. If you have sources that can
provide additional information that are reliable I would like to
research these also.
As far as the Mandaeans are concerned—various scholars have classified
them as Gnostics— whether or not they are still being debated. They
are also called Sabians and Nasoraean as names that are religious self-
designations or descriptions.
The term the True Sabians is in reference to separate them from the
False Sabaeans of Harran. I have already stated this before.
slf_usa wrote:
SLF questions Aje:
You state that you are not a Mandean. Why are you carrying their cause
so savagely?
My Response:
Once again I will be honest in saying that is a silly question. Then
any Egyptologist who is not an Ancient Egyptian has no right to study
that culture. What of the researchers who study the Dead Sea Scrolls –
none of them are Essenes—do they have no right to fight so vehemently
for their points of view? Are you a direct descendant of the kingdom
Saba that died over 1500 years ago—if not then do you have any right to
research or defend your position? To ask why someone researchers or
believes in an area of study is ridiculous. Why I have chosen to devote
my research to these wonderful people is my own business.
slf_usa wrote:
Maybe we should have trade marked the word back in the days of Saba in
all of the alphebets (who would have thought that the barbaric Germanic
tribes would have learned to use the roman aphabet? And then corupt
it!) and spellings (since the sabeaens like other semetics did not use
vowels)to insure that we would not have another group with another
language use our name.
I do not think that it is productive to state that one group is "true"
or "false", we do not claim that they stole our name and we do not call
them false either.
Please feel free to discuss scholarly topics.
My Response
As I have state the terminology of true and false is specially aimed at
the Sabaeans of Harran ands their claim to the protective title Sabians
under Islamic rule. The name Sabians was given to the Mandaeans
because Mohammed had a vested interest in this group.
Please if you would-- lay out your theory that indicates the Sabeans of
Seba are the same as the Sabaeans of Harran. I would like to see how
your theory is developed.
AJAE
Still using the same “name” unlike the many faces of “eve” on this
newsgroup
Mandaean World
Mandaean World Research E-Group
http://www.egroups.com/group/MandaeanWorldResearch
Mandaean World Web Site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8522/mandaeanworld.html
Mark Braun
Happy to share. Also, have IRIS #2 if anyone anywhere has #1 or others. Plan to scan this issue for posterity.
Find me on FB or email.