Bringing Down Guardian Angels
LobsterBoy
bring down someone's ruling Orisha is through Ifa. He said that there was a
pataki in one of the Ifa signs that talks about this. Does anyone around
here know the sign or the pataki?
TIA,
Lobster Boy
Sean Williams
Hola Lobster Boy,
There are several ways of determining "who" someones Guardian Orisha
is.
There are numerous other things Babalawo's will proclaim, Only they
can do,but history shows us quite a different story.
Many Priest/esses use Elegba's shells to mark heads. Some use the
shells of their own Gaurdian Orisha and some insist on taking thier
godchildren to Babalawo's for this purpose.
All the ways described work....and have for centuries,both in Africa
and the New World.
Sorry, I cant cite the Odu you seek, I am only concerned with Ifa Odu
when Elegba say's I should consult an Ifa Priest.
Sean
Baba Eyiogbe
news:bW9zdXJh.10e918c3256...@1019482331.cotse.net...
The Babalawo might have been talking about Oyekun Verdura. In that Odu
Eleggua's shells were used to determine a person's Orisha before his
kariocha. Elegba (Eleggua), who has Ifa made (in Iroso Umbo), made a
complaint about this himself. Sentence was passed, and Ogun was sent to cut
the heads off of everyone present at the ceremony and switch one head for
another. Orunmila stepped in to save the new Iyawo who was blameless. Now
that's a real cambio de la cabeza for you!
Please remember that finding out a person's Orisha is serious business and
shouldn't be done with just an okuele either. It should be done at a Plante
using the Table of Ifa.
On the other hand, bringing someone's Orisha down to the mat is a different
thing entirely. That is a ceremony where the shells of a Santero's or
Santera's "Guardian Angel" are read so the Orisha can speak directly to
their child. This should be done through the services of an Oba (Oriate) and
NOT a Babalawo.
I hope this helps in some small way.
May Orunmila and Obatala accompany you,
Iboru, Iboya, Ibochiche
Baba Eyiogbe
PS - I see you have Ocha made. Which Orisha? How many years? And who was the
Babalawo?
LobsterBoy
Thank you Oluo! It's nice to see an elder here and I hope you'll stick
around.
I'm an Omo Obatala and am just about to turn 6 in Ocha. I'm sorry but I
didn't catch the name of the Babalawo.
Thank you again Oluo,
Lobster Boy
Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi
> Let's try this again. I was told by a Babalawo that the only proper way to
> bring down someone's ruling Orisha is through Ifa.
In West African Legba Lineages (as well as the Lines of other Orisa),
there is no need to go to Ifa to mark someones Head.
My theory is that this is predominantly the practice in Cuba because
the knowledge of how to mark Heads through other Orisa has not
survived in all Houses, so the Babalawo must be consulted to make up
for this deficiency.
Legba can mark the head, but it is not done through Divination, it is
done through Ceremoni.
It is important to keep in mind that many Orisa Lines in Africa are
self-sustaining. An Elevated Osun Priest needs no other Orisa Line to
Initiate another into Osun, and that includes Marking the Head of Omo
Osun.
The same can be said of Brazilian Orisa Lines as well. Brazilian
Houses of Orisa have survived and prospered in unbroken Lineages
without the need for Ifa Priests at all.
My point is this: The only thing that is needed is Ase.
...Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi...
Baba Eyiogbe
> My theory is that this is predominantly the practice in Cuba because
> the knowledge of how to mark Heads through other Orisa has not
> survived in all Houses, so the Babalawo must be consulted to make up
> for this deficiency.
Are you saying that there are houses in Cuba that don't know how to ask yes
or no questions with the shells?
> It is important to keep in mind that many Orisa Lines in Africa are
> self-sustaining. An Elevated Osun Priest needs no other Orisa Line to
> Initiate another into Osun, and that includes Marking the Head of Omo
> Osun.
In Nigeria, the vast majority of people's heads are marked by Babalawos.
It's interesting that you use Oshun lines as an example, as they Oshun
Priestesses and Priests in Oshogbo use Babalawos extensively. On the other
hand, you are absolutely right about the initiation process with the
different Orisha lines. Priestesses and Priests of other Orishas are not
allowed to be present during the ceremony.
I hope that helps a bit.
May Orunmila and Obatala accompany you,
Baba Eyiogbe
Baba Eyiogbe
"LobsterBoy" <Lobst...@cotse.org> wrote:
> Oluo iboru iboya ibocheche
Iboru, Iboya, Ibochiche - Orunmila a gbe o
> Thank you Oluo! It's nice to see an elder here and I hope you'll stick
> around.
Sorry, but I don't have the patience or the time for the kind of things that
go on here.
> I'm an Omo Obatala and am just about to turn 6 in Ocha. I'm sorry but I
> didn't catch the name of the Babalawo.
Congratulations. I have 11 years in Obatala myself.
Take care mijo.
May Orunmila and Obatala accompany you,
Baba Eyiogbe
LobsterBoy
> "LobsterBoy" <Lobst...@cotse.org> wrote:
>
> > Oluo iboru iboya ibocheche
>
> Iboru, Iboya, Ibochiche - Orunmila a gbe o
>
> > Thank you Oluo! It's nice to see an elder here and I hope you'll stick
> > around.
>
> Sorry, but I don't have the patience or the time for the kind of things
that
> go on here.
I am very sorry to hear that, but I understand. I was afraid this was why
there aren't any elders here. This saddens and angers me.
But thank you Oluo!
Lobster Boy
Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi
> Are you saying that there are houses in Cuba that don't know how to ask yes
> or no questions with the shells?
:) Absolutely not.
There are also Houses in Cuba that do not need to rely on the Babalawo
to Mark the Heads of Orisa Initiates at all, which is actually the
older way of doing things.
> In Nigeria, the vast majority of people's heads are marked by Babalawos.
It is true that Babalawos Mark Heads in Nigeria, but not all Orisa
Lines resort to this, especially in Western Nigeria and Benin.
> It's interesting that you use Oshun lines as an example, as they Oshun
> Priestesses and Priests in Oshogbo use Babalawos extensively.
You are right, Osun is a bad example. Ifa is well established in
Osogbo, and I do not doubt for a minute that Ifa Divination has
supplanted Orisa Divination there.
Perhaps Esu Elegba would be a better example.
Legba is not from Osogbo, Legba/Elegba/Elegua is from Benin. Legba
has his own divinations that have nothing to do with Ifa Odu at all.
There are divinations much older than Ifa in West African Vodun and
Orisa Houses, and I am not talking about Merindilogun.
I assume that you are familar with the Ifa Divination tray? Have you
ever been to the back of the board?
Baba Eyiogbe
news:bc9b3378.02042...@posting.google.com...
> There are also Houses in Cuba that do not need to rely on the Babalawo
> to Mark the Heads of Orisa Initiates at all, which is actually the
> older way of doing things.
Older than what? Most of the Houses in Cuba that mark heads without the use
of Babalawos started doing so because they came to resent the authority of
the Babalawos. Many of these same Houses give Osun with their Guerreros as
well which is actually an Ifa staff. Since they don't know how to mount an
Osun, what is given is useless. And they often read the Merindilogun past
Eyila Chebora which is generally prohibited in both Nigeria and Cuba.
"Sixteen Cowries" by Bascom caused quite a bit of confusion, but if you read
closely the Salako confuses Otura with Osa (as one example) and Bascom notes
that going past Eyila (Ejila) Chebora is something that is not generally
practiced in Nigeria.
> It is true that Babalawos Mark Heads in Nigeria, but not all Orisa
> Lines resort to this, especially in Western Nigeria and Benin.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information since almost all Yorubas
are to be found in Southwestern Nigeria.
> I assume that you are familar with the Ifa Divination tray? Have you
> ever been to the back of the board?
Excuse me? That's something you don't want to ask a Babalawo casually. But
my Odu would tell you immediately if you knew of these things.
> ...Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi...
That is an odd name. It doesn't seem to fit any initiatory protocols I'm
aware of. How did you come by it?
Baba Eyiogbe
Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi
I wrote:
> > There are also Houses in Cuba that do not need to rely on the Babalawo
> > to Mark the Heads of Orisa Initiates at all, which is actually the
> > older way of doing things.
>
Then Baba wrote:
> Older than what?
Older than using Ifa to Mark the Head of an Initiate.
>Most of the Houses in Cuba that mark heads without the use
> of Babalawos started doing so because they came to resent the authority of
> the Babalawos.
This is a perfect example of the attitude that has caused me to speak
out on this issue.
You are saying that Houses who do not use Ifa Divination are doing so
out of a sense of resentment. Any House which would break a tradition
out of a sense of resentment is not serving the same Spirit as We.
While I will not go very far into arguing the history of Ocha in Cuba
as I do not belong to a Cuban Line, I will say that there is precedent
of not RELYING on Ifa to Mark ones Orisa in African Vodun and Orisa
Lines.
Ifa is a tried-and-true way of determining ones Guardian Orisa. Most
definitely.
But it is not the only way, and Houses which do not rely on Ifa should
not be labeled as 'rebellious' or 'indolent'.
>Many of these same Houses give Osun with their Guerreros as
> well which is actually an Ifa staff. Since they don't know how to mount an
> Osun, what is given is useless.
With this I would agree with you.
If the House has established a tradition of recieving Asese from a
Babalawo, and then goes on to break with that tradition out of anger,
dire consequences will befall the future generations who will need to
rely on the Ase of thier Antecedents to Elevate.
> > It is true that Babalawos Mark Heads in Nigeria, but not all Orisa
> > Lines resort to this, especially in Western Nigeria and Benin.
>
> I'm not sure where you're getting your information since almost all Yorubas
> are to be found in Southwestern Nigeria.
True.
Apologies, I should have said 'Yorubaland' which does have an East,
West, North, and South, instead of 'Nigeria',
Keep in mind also that not all Orisa in Africa are Yoruba in Origin.
Legba is not. Sakpata (Obaluaiye) is not. Nana is not...
> > I assume that you are familar with the Ifa Divination tray? Have you
> > ever been to the back of the board?
>
> Excuse me? That's something you don't want to ask a Babalawo casually. But
> my Odu would tell you immediately if you knew of these things.
Ase, Baba. That which is done on the Back of the Board is older than
Ifa.
>
> > ...Omo Esu Olorun Matabunde Fasi...
>
> That is an odd name. It doesn't seem to fit any initiatory protocols I'm
> aware of. How did you come by it?
It is a Lineage name which contains 2 of the names of my Fathers.
I came by it because I have Recieved the Ara Orun of my Lineage and
whomever Recieves that is called...
Omo Esu Olorun Abate Matabunde Fasi San Banu Kwa Mebu...
I put the 3 dots because there is more to the name. If I were to list
the entire Name, it would eventually go on to end with the Founder of
our Line...LEGBA.
KnightBlnc
The odu is 9-4 but I will double check for sure. This pataki tells of when
my dad (Obatala) started to claim that all the heads were his and so to pass
judgement Olofi said Orula should determine since he had no vested interest in
crowning.
Manny
OloObatala