Obi Abata/new thread
osunm...@my-deja.com
Obi Abata is an interesting form of divination. I
use the coconut shell/cowry because that's what I
was given back in 198?. It was my understanding
at that time that Agba Carlos Collazo developed
this in NYC because 4 lobed Obi Abata is hard to
come by. He gave a set to Afolabi Epega who gave
the set to me. However, Denise tells me the
coco/cowry instrument may be even older than
that. From what it looks like it may even have a
palo connection.
I found it's best to keep your Obi questions
fairly concrete, not abstract, and to make sure
they have one part only, no options in the
question.
As Yewande says there are 9 patterns in which the
Obi can fall. Also the individual pieces fall in
different locations, north, south, east and west.
In addition the pieces will fall pointing in a
direction, again, north, south, east and west.
These three factors influence the overall
prediction of the reading. The overall pattern is
then given the name of an Ifa Odu corresponding
to its appearance, and I have seen for myself
that there are definite correlations between the
Obi and Merindilogun interpretations, although an
Odu is not opened in Obi Abata. I hope others
will share what they have learned about this
system.
Osunmilaya
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Denise Oliver-Velez
>Alafia to All!
Hiya Sue (HUGS!)
Good to see you posting again. And glad you started the thread.
I have question about obi abata and its "portability" (I don't kow if
this is a word). I have seen people use obi abata in a variety of
settings outside of their own homes, traveling etc. but wondered if
any particular libation is used - prior to throwing. Do you need a
jicara, etc? Someone I spoke to said no, someone else said yes, and
someone else said it was just like using chomolongos. (grin)
I am now completely confused.
I realize that in many ways obi abata seems to require less
preliminaries than throwing coco - since you have already prepared
shells - but what exactly does one pray to open the path to orisha -
>
>Obi Abata is an interesting form of divination. I
>use the coconut shell/cowry because that's what I
>was given back in 198?. It was my understanding
>at that time that Agba Carlos Collazo developed
>this in NYC because 4 lobed Obi Abata is hard to
>come by. He gave a set to Afolabi Epega who gave
>the set to me. However, Denise tells me the
>coco/cowry instrument may be even older than
>that. From what it looks like it may even have a
>palo connection.
>I found it's best to keep your Obi questions
>fairly concrete, not abstract, and to make sure
>they have one part only, no options in the
>question.
So do not phrase questions requiring yes or no answers?
Denise
osunm...@my-deja.com
Hope this "real winter" is treating you and N. okay!
I've found the Obi Abata to be very portable indeed. If I have four
cowries available from a specific orisha, I use those to get the 5
yes/no patterns (ejife, alafia, oyekun, ocana sode, itagua). Otherwise
I use the Obi, but I specify what I'm doing as regards asking for a
yes/no versus reading the nine patterns.
I use a brief mojuba prayer and sprinkle some water. In Afolabi Epega's
book he states the only prayer needed is "Akinmoran, Akinmoran,
Akinmoran." I have used an ate to throw on and also the bare ground.
The results seem to be accurate however it's done as long as the
inquirer doesn't ask the same question over and over, or the question
is too vague.
olo...@my-deja.com
Axe Osunmilaya and Denise!
Mighty nice finding the two of you in the same thread :-))
I wanted to ask something that has confused me profoundly. Why call
the coconut/cowrie divination "obi abata" ?? In the name of
globalization (smiling) dont you think it is quite confusing, specially
when we are talking inter-traditions? It is already hard for me to
convey to Brazilian Olorishas that here when people say Obi they mean
agbon or coconut, now I have to explain that Obi abata is a cowrie/coco
divination? You guys make it hard on this foreigner :-)))
I know a Brazilian who bought a book called Obi Abata and was
expecting to get a kolanut with it, and did get something similar to
the one you are talking about, Osunmilaya.
Anyway, as to being portable. I thought of something : When throwing
the Meridilogun, dont you guys just use at times just four cowries of
the Meridilogun to ask a yes or no question? To me, although I have to
have two sets of consacreted meridilogun, one for traveling, one that
cannot, I find the meridilogun very portable.
The only similarity I find with any of our Kongo practices in
divination, is that they are very keen on the place that the divination
piece falls, or how it falls, much more tha the Yoruba-derived
divinations, which are more open or closed oriented.
Axe to both of you,
Maria de Oxala
olo...@my-deja.com
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
Axe Denise!
Happy winter :-)))
> Good to see you posting again. And glad you started the thread.
> I have question about obi abata and its "portability" (I don't kow if
> this is a word). I have seen people use obi abata in a variety of
> settings outside of their own homes, traveling etc. but wondered if
> any particular libation is used - prior to throwing. Do you need a
> jicara, etc? Someone I spoke to said no, someone else said yes, and
> someone else said it was just like using chomolongos. (grin)
> I am now completely confused.
>
> I realize that in many ways obi abata seems to require less
> preliminaries than throwing coco - since you have already prepared
> shells - but what exactly does one pray to open the path to orisha -
I just wanted to add my two cents on the prayers before divination.
In general our prayers are very small in comparison with yours before
divining. No mojuba similar to yours. The mojuba that you do when
throwing agbon, saluting all your lineage(ibae) and then the living
(kinkamache) we do not do it.
by the way: were does this word kinkamache comes from?
We do a mojuba to our ancestral lineage in a cerimony called Ipade
which is a very complex cerimony when we give 4 legs to Orisas, before
an Asese (Itutu), etc. It is when we invite the ancestors and the
Orishas to participate.
Anyway, the prayers done before we throw obi abata (kolanut),
meridilogun are short. With the four cowries is very short. Throwing
Obi, we never to it seated, which we can do all the others. Also the
Obi (kolanut) has a maximum number of questions it can be asked, but it
is possible to revert an absolute No with Obi, whih is not with
cowries.
I am interested to know if this coco/cowrie divination has female
and male sides. Kolanut is trick because first is very irregular and
due to this many diffent ways of falling.
I think I did ask about throwing Orogbo to Shango,if you guys do it,
since Obi is his eewo.
Axe,
Maria de Oxala
osunm...@my-deja.com
In Chief Fama's book she says that ki nkan m'ase means "may nothing
bad happen to...(name of individual). It's interesting to know your
prayers are shorter.
Yes, naming the coco/cowry divination tool was confusing, wasn't it.
But it wasn't me who did it; it is Tradition!
It has male and female sides so it's very easy to tell which is which.
(Kola isn't so easy) You have 2 males-opened cowry side attached facing
up, and 2 female, the teeth side of the cowries attached facing up.
That's where you get the 9 patterns (all facing up, all facing down,
one female and 3 down, 1 male and 3 down, one male and one female and 2
down, and so on). Since the cowries are pointy on one end, they can be
determined to face in different directions as well.
My ajubona uses the orogbo for divination but I do not know how.
Osunmilaya
In article <9252qe$7j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Denise Oliver-Velez
>In article <j1v94tk4ljpt719ru...@4ax.com>,
> Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>
>Axe Denise!
>
> Happy winter :-)))
>
Alafia y bendicion Iya.
Brrrrr it's cold up here :) (wish I was in Brasil or Puerto Rico)
>> Good to see you posting again. And glad you started the thread.
>> I have question about obi abata and its "portability" (I don't kow if
>> this is a word). I have seen people use obi abata in a variety of
>> settings outside of their own homes, traveling etc. but wondered if
>> any particular libation is used - prior to throwing. Do you need a
>> jicara, etc? Someone I spoke to said no, someone else said yes, and
>> someone else said it was just like using chomolongos. (grin)
>> I am now completely confused.
>>
>> I realize that in many ways obi abata seems to require less
>> preliminaries than throwing coco - since you have already prepared
>> shells - but what exactly does one pray to open the path to orisha -
>
> I just wanted to add my two cents on the prayers before divination.
>In general our prayers are very small in comparison with yours before
>divining. No mojuba similar to yours. The mojuba that you do when
>throwing agbon, saluting all your lineage(ibae) and then the living
>(kinkamache) we do not do it.
That's why I was asking about "portability", since the throwing of
coco is a long process. First to open the coco (and that is not
always as easy as it looks, and novices as well as experts can get a
sharp pinch or cut in doing so) and to get four pieces that are the
right size for throwing (which if the coco turns out to be a bad one
means you start the process all over again) , then the prayers, both
moyubas and kincamaches before throwing. And this is done in front of
Orisha.
>
> by the way: were does this word kinkamache comes from?
John Mason has it spelled out a bit differently in his Four New World
Yoruba rituals - my kyboards won't put the accents on it properly but
he sells it "Ki Nkan Mase" translating it the same way Osunmilaya says
Chief Fama has it "Let nothing happen to...." but Lydia Cabrera in her
"Anago Vocabulario Lucumi" simply translates it as "salud...pedir
salute" (health or to ask/pray for health)
We need Idowu to comment on this
>
> We do a mojuba to our ancestral lineage in a cerimony called Ipade
>which is a very complex cerimony when we give 4 legs to Orisas, before
>an Asese (Itutu), etc. It is when we invite the ancestors and the
>Orishas to participate.
>
> Anyway, the prayers done before we throw obi abata (kolanut),
>meridilogun are short. With the four cowries is very short. Throwing
>Obi, we never to it seated, which we can do all the others. Also the
>Obi (kolanut) has a maximum number of questions it can be asked, but it
>is possible to revert an absolute No with Obi, whih is not with
>cowries.
>
> I am interested to know if this coco/cowrie divination has female
>and male sides. Kolanut is trick because first is very irregular and
>due to this many diffent ways of falling.
Sue has answered this :)
>
> I think I did ask about throwing Orogbo to Shango,if you guys do it,
>since Obi is his eewo.
>
> Axe,
>
>Maria de Oxala
>
Happy holidays! I'm off this morning to visit relatives - will be
back in a few days.
Axe,
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
>Axe Iya Maria!
> In Chief Fama's book she says that ki nkan m'ase means "may nothing
>bad happen to...(name of individual). It's interesting to know your
>prayers are shorter.
>Yes, naming the coco/cowry divination tool was confusing, wasn't it.
>But it wasn't me who did it; it is Tradition!
I'm going to quote from John Mason s"Four New World Yoruba Rituals"
again, since he has a nice paragraph about how the confusions
developed.
"Obi abata is a kola nut which divides into three four or five lobes.
Only the one dividing into five lobes is used for divination. Two
lobes are male (ako) and two lobes are female (obi). With the
exception of Brazil, cola acuminata is not native to the lands in the
Americas where the Yoruba settled. In Cuba, the coconut (agbon) was
used as a substitute and to this day is known by the name obi rather
than agbon. The Shango people of Trinidad dealt with this deficiency
by substituting cola nitida for the missing cola acuminata. In
Yorubaland, cola nitida is known as Gba-n-ja or awe meji - the "two
lobe kola". Here in the United States, the system of obi divination
as preserved and developed by Yoruba descendants in Cuba, continues to
substitute the coconut for cola acuminata. This substitution
continues because of the high cost and difficulty in procuring cola
acuminata in regular supply. One must also remember that this
substitution has gone on for some three hundred years and has thus
developed its own reality. New World diviners seem to agree that none
of the systems essentials have been lost by this substitution. Our
forefathers were very astute when selecting a replacement: both the
cola and coconut come from a palm tree, thus making them first
cousins."
Though as you and Maria have pointed out - the male female nature of
obi abata doesn't seem to be a part of obi coco.
Be warm and stay well,
Denise
ido...@my-deja.com
very interesting this kinkamanche. if it is what you are saying, "ki
nkan mase" it would be really, "Kì nnkan ma ise" (deja would not let me
put the other accents) and would be pronounced, "ki oonka ma ishe" and
after the ellision with several years of displacement you
get, "kincamanche" that, upon first glance, does not appear to be a
yoruba word at all. in yoruba it means, "that no things should stop
this work" however, i read in another list someone's post of the
merindinlogun book by Ochani lele where he translates kincamanche
within the phrase, "kincamanche Orun, modupe" as "For all the blessings
that come to
me from heaven, I give thanks." so, my question to those who use the
word - which usage is more "on point" in lukumi? the yoruba
interpretation, or the lukumi translation?
thanks,
Idowu
In article <2kde4tsd5hou0rp72...@4ax.com>,
olo...@my-deja.com
ido...@my-deja.com wrote:
> hi everyone,
>
> very interesting this kinkamanche. if it is what you are saying, "ki
> nkan mase" it would be really, "Kì nnkan ma ise" (deja would not let
me
> put the other accents) and would be pronounced, "ki oonka ma ishe" and
> after the ellision with several years of displacement you
> get, "kincamanche" that, upon first glance, does not appear to be a
> yoruba word at all. in yoruba it means, "that no things should stop
> this work" however, i read in another list someone's post of the
> merindinlogun book by Ochani lele where he translates kincamanche
> within the phrase, "kincamanche Orun, modupe" as "For all the
blessings
> that come to
> me from heaven, I give thanks." so, my question to those who use the
> word - which usage is more "on point" in lukumi? the yoruba
> interpretation, or the lukumi translation?
>
> thanks,
> Idowu
then the prayers, both
> > moyubas and kincamaches before throwing. And this is done in front
of
> > Orisha.
> > >
> > > by the way: were does this word kinkamache comes from?
> >
> > John Mason has it spelled out a bit differently in his Four New
World
> > Yoruba rituals - my kyboards won't put the accents on it properly
but
> > he sells it "Ki Nkan Mase" translating it the same way Osunmilaya
says
> > Chief Fama has it "Let nothing happen to...." but Lydia Cabrera in
her
> > "Anago Vocabulario Lucumi" simply translates it as "salud...pedir
> > salute" (health or to ask/pray for health)
> >
> > We need Idowu to comment on this
Axé Idowu, Osunmilaya and Denise!
Hey guys, accents is easy (copy and paste :-)
I am very weary of these Yoruba translations of Diaspora words or
usage. Why ? I have seem Yoruba linguist specialists discuss for hours
on one word, coming up with numerous options and not at all agreeing
between them. Some of the songs Mason translates (which are very
similar to some of ours) are translated totally different than how some
of ours have been translated, by different Yoruba people. Anyway I will
put my faith much more in the context and then look for something
similar in context either in the Diaspora or Nigeria. So my vote is for
Cabrera interpretation. That is the context too that I see when lukumis
are saying their Mojuba and get to the kinkamache. I asked several
lukumi elders on this, mainly because I always feel very uncomfortable
on being "kinkamached" after so many mojubas to "ibae" people :-),
since for us we never mix the dead humans with living humans in the
same situation or prayer. I have no inkling where Ochani Lele got his
translation from, Idowu ...Actually he should be more clear with all
his sources in everything he declares in his book :-)
And we have to remember that most of these words were first put in
writing by people who did not write in any language, so they tried to
use the phonetics of the language of their country. And one thing
Spanish lacks is more accents :-), so after it is written,it looses the
right entonation because the tone accents are not used. I have seen
this recently on lukumis writing our Ori songs. They loose the open,
grave, high, down tones, because they used only one accent. In a
question of three months the songs were totally changed (sounds). That
is why I still like oral memorazing...no writings on certain things :-)
Axé,
Maria de Oxala
olo...@my-deja.com
osunm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Axe Iya Maria!
> In Chief Fama's book she says that ki nkan m'ase means "may nothing
> bad happen to...(name of individual). It's interesting to know your
> prayers are shorter.
> Yes, naming the coco/cowry divination tool was confusing, wasn't it.
> But it wasn't me who did it; it is Tradition!
> It has male and female sides so it's very easy to tell which is which.
> (Kola isn't so easy) You have 2 males-opened cowry side attached
facing
> up, and 2 female, the teeth side of the cowries attached facing up.
> That's where you get the 9 patterns (all facing up, all facing down,
> one female and 3 down, 1 male and 3 down, one male and one female and
2
> down, and so on). Since the cowries are pointy on one end, they can be
> determined to face in different directions as well.
> My ajubona uses the orogbo for divination but I do not know how.
>
> Osunmilaya
Axé Osunmilaya !
So Carlos invention is already "tradition"...LOL
Well, it seems I have to see the gadget, because from what you are
explaining, I do not see any difference between this and four cowries.
If maleness and femaless is being defined by the sides of the cowries
(mouth or belly), why attached to a piece of coconut shell. Why not use
just 4 cowries? By the way, is not this hard to see the feminine and
masculine side of kolanut...when you take the sprout, there will be
convex indentation and concave sides to it. But also the importance of
eating a piece of the kolanut in order for divination to happen is lost
in this coco-cowrie divination.
Also if direction is defined by the pointed side of the cowrie...it
still all about four cowries to me. All one would have to add was the
concept of female/male to the cowries (where this comes from, I mean
religiously?).
Axé,
Maria de Oxala (who has to see to understand :-(((
olo...@my-deja.com
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 03:45:07 GMT, osunm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> "Obi abata is a kola nut which divides into three four or five lobes.
> Only the one dividing into five lobes is used for divination. Two
> lobes are male (ako) and two lobes are female (obi). With the
> exception of Brazil, cola acuminata is not native to the lands in the
> Americas where the Yoruba settled. In Cuba, the coconut (agbon) was
> used as a substitute and to this day is known by the name obi rather
> than agbon. The Shango people of Trinidad dealt with this deficiency
> by substituting cola nitida for the missing cola acuminata. In
> Yorubaland, cola nitida is known as Gba-n-ja or awe meji - the "two
> lobe kola". Here in the United States, the system of obi divination
> as preserved and developed by Yoruba descendants in Cuba, continues to
> substitute the coconut for cola acuminata. This substitution
> continues because of the high cost and difficulty in procuring cola
> acuminata in regular supply. One must also remember that this
> substitution has gone on for some three hundred years and has thus
> developed its own reality. New World diviners seem to agree that none
> of the systems essentials have been lost by this substitution. Our
> forefathers were very astute when selecting a replacement: both the
> cola and coconut come from a palm tree, thus making them first
> cousins."
Axé Denise and all,
The above statement by Mason is wrong too...the cola acuminata even
when planted in Brazil, will produce only two-lobed obis, just like
Trinidad and Jamaica. From what I know it can be more of something
lacking in the soil. Several African trees, when planted in Brazil,
changes. Nowdays, especialists know what is lacking in the soil (or
different composition) and prepare the soil, but not before. All our
obi abatas are imported from Africa. Always was.
ido...@my-deja.com
i agree with you - it's hard to define a yoruba word or phrase
if you are not the person using that phrase because you are out of the
context. obviously, the interpretation i see to "kinkamanche" is not
equivalent to its usage in lukumi ritual - so a lukumi is more needed
to give the context of what it is, how it is used, etc...instead of the
direct (mis)translation of the word. when we get into linguistics we
have to remember that, "ok, one culture may have the words of another
culture but it does not mean both cultures use the same meaning" which
is why we have two different "obi" and several different "kinkamanche"
<smile>.
it's like in english, "portal" the base of the word means door in
spanish, french, latin and i would assume portuguese(?) - but in
english is it more like an entry-way instead of a plain door...like a
grandiose vestibule or something. modern english, though heavily
influenced by old french is a distinctively different language than
modern french - as yoruba is a distinctively different language than
lukumi even though similar words can be found in both languages. this
is why yoruba have such a hard time figuring out lukumi - we can make
out the words...but the meanings (because of intonation, etc...) are
sheer mystery. do the lukumi speakers here find it easier to
understand yoruba?
btw Maria, i cannot find the Ibeji pic on my disks...but it in on my
deja profile page. click my name and tell me if you see it - if not i
will copy it to an email for you.
Idowu
In article <92aa2u$cuv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
osunm...@my-deja.com
I can email a picture! The difference from four cowries is, in four
cowries you can get all 4 males or all 4 females. In Obi Abata, there
are two of each only, because of the dark side of the pieces covering
the other sides, called Ooya when it falls face up. In 4 cowries
there's no Odu seen, but in Obi Abata Ooya gives the ability to see one
because you have the (+) side with the cowry on it, and the (-) side
with no cowry on it, the Ooya.
Okay, I know you will wait for the drawing. I will do it later when I
get home. Not much to do round here when it is FOUR degrees.
Osunmilaya
olo...@my-deja.com
Axé Osunmilaya !
4 degrees??? Well, it is a nice 72 here :-)
I think I do need a picture...now you come with a darker side, is
getting complicated :-)
Why not just plain throw the Meridilogun ?? LOL
Axé,
Maria de Oxala
olo...@my-deja.com
Axé Idowu mi!
I agree, context is essential, even in the same language spoken in
different areas (regionalisms). We for instance have the word "porta"
for door, and portal too, with the same meaning as in English. Many
words in the same language can be misleading too. One example in
Portuguese is "rapariga", feminine of rapaz (young male). Well rapariga
in Portuguese of Portugal means prostitute, as in Brazil just means
young woman. According to the linguists, the Portuguese of Brazil kept
many archaic usages , which Portugal did not.
I had one experience with someone doing a PhD thesis on Candomble
(and did, and got a Doctorate) basing the whole thing on two words:
oratorio (altar) which she understood it was oratoria (oratory) and the
other word was "cabaça" (calabash), which she understood as "cabaço"
(womans virginity-himen, vulgar word that comes from the French
cabouche). Well just the usage of an O or an A at the end, which
changes the whole meaning of the word, which she did not "get it"
turned into a non-sense thesis about Candomble people relating the
Orisha (in a calabash-igba) to the female organs, the going on to a
head being able to speak well (oratoria) and a whole PhD which made not
a iota of sense. When I pointed her basic language
misunderstanding...she wanted me to correct the whole thing...LOL I got
no PhD for such a mess...and beware it will be published soon!
btw...no I do not see any picture in your profile :-( just that square
with a red x inside...I clicked...nothing happened...)I NEED a IBEJI
PIC!!!!! Buahhhhhhhhhh...That is how people ends up with Saint Cosme
and Damien...easier to find them in the Net!
Axe,
Your Iyabeji Maria
Take care
YEWANDE KELLEY-JOHNSON
I haven't read with the four cowries but as Osunmilaya said with the obi
abata's variants of light, dark, or light and dark sides showing it
gives you an odu, additional information if you want to use it.
For example if the shells fall with 2 female at the top and 2 dark sides
at the bottom that would be Ero, but also I might with that formation
decide to look at aspects of odu irosun and consider that in my answer.
And as has been running through this thread from Osunmilaya I still
haven't considered the directions the light side of the shells are
pointing which also gives more information.
Peace
Yewande
Denise Oliver-Velez
>I asked several
>lukumi elders on this, mainly because I always feel very uncomfortable
>on being "kinkamached" after so many mojubas to "ibae" people :-),
>since for us we never mix the dead humans with living humans in the
>same situation or prayer. I have no inkling where Ochani Lele got his
>translation from, Idowu ...Actually he should be more clear with all
>his sources in everything he declares in his book :-)
(grin) Iya Maria,
I didn't know that in Brasil you don't mix the two (ibae and living)
in the same prayers. That must make you feel a bit uncomfortable
among us Lucumis :).
As you know, we start with the universal, and work our way through
ancestors, ancestral santeros and then to acknowledging each elder
who is living in our line, and then those there in the cuarto...I
remember the first time I heard someone pray "Omi Saide, ibae" and I
kinda jumped, because that's my name...our house names new crowns
after ancestors of the house who have passed on.
I agree that Cabrera is a good source. She wrote out things as they
were being pronounced, and she documents differences in different
parts of Cuba as well. And she gives attribution.
Since no languages are static and all are constantly changing, and
there are so many regional variants and dialects, I wonder how much of
what we Lucumis use, after the influence of Spanish intonations and
four hundred years of usage, is actually recognizable to modern day
Yoruba speakers. I don't really think it makes a difference except
when we end up with confusions about the use of terms like Obi (for
coconut as opposed to Kola nut)
I know there are major differences in the Lucumi cantos in
pronunciation since I listen to my husband learning songs. He does not
depend on books, but on what he learns by singing under the training
of elders, some of whom come from different parts of Cuba.
What is difficult is that there are not many "Lucumi speakers" around,
and he says he finds it hard to sing when he has no idea what he is
singing, hence he tries to get translations of the meaning of the
songs to orisha, not just the phonetics.
Are there similar linguistic differences between and among the
nations of Candomble?
Denise
olo...@my-deja.com
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
Axé Denise!
> I didn't know that in Brasil you don't mix the two (ibae and living)
> in the same prayers. That must make you feel a bit uncomfortable
> among us Lucumis :).
>
> As you know, we start with the universal, and work our way through
> ancestors, ancestral santeros and then to acknowledging each elder
> who is living in our line, and then those there in the cuarto...I
> remember the first time I heard someone pray "Omi Saide, ibae" and I
> kinda jumped, because that's my name...our house names new crowns
> after ancestors of the house who have passed on.
We are very keen on the separation of Orisha and the living from
Egun, Egungun and the dead. One of our main sayings is: Lessa Egun,
Lessa Orisa, and the "context usage" of this phrase is : "Where there
is Life (orisha) ,there is not Death (Egun)".
As I wrote somewhere here in this maze :-), our Mojuba to religious
ancestors is done during the Mojuba at the cerimony of the Ipade. It is
the only time too, that we will say their religious name (oruko). This
with our mouths to the soil, because we are actually calling on them.
Our male priests who were ancestors in that Terreiro have gone through
a ritual process of "egunization" and after seven years of their
death , they become Baba Egun (Egungun) and are as such "assentado" in
the Terreiro. Different process occur with the Iyas who died who
becomes part of the Iyamis. So it is a moment where we are dealing with
religious ancestral spirits who are actually part of that physical Ashe
of that Terreiro.
> Are there similar linguistic differences between and among the
> nations of Candomble?
The Nations that are of Yoruba-descent(Orisha): Ketu, Ifon,Ijesa,
Egba, etc, sing and pray in archaic Nago, but not necessarily the same
songs, prayers, salutes, etc. The Jeje Nations , who are Ewe/Fon-
descent (Vodoun): Jeje-Mahin, Jeje-Male,Jeje-Mina sing and pray in an
archaic Fon and the Angola Nation sing and pray in Kibundo. Since the
Bantus were the first and largest enslaved group, they
were "acculturated" first, both in Africa and in Brazil, so you find
their language much more mixed with Portuguese words (like Palo is also
with Spanish words, it seems to me). The "so-called" language and
practice purity (Yoruba) claimed by the researchers that is present in
the Ketu Nation is just due to constant interchange up to this day with
West Africa, and because they were later arrivals in the whole process
of slavery (the Nagos-Yorubas). In our case too, the existance of the
Terreiro helped the maintainig of the language, since many were born,
lived and died in Terreiros of Candomble with no much outside contact
(school, work, etc).
Just to make you envious :-) It is 74F here :-))
Axe,
olo...@my-deja.com
Axé Osunmilaya!
Thanks so much for the drawing...it helped a little :-))))
Maria de Oxala
olo...@my-deja.com
Axé Idowu mi!
Since we are on the Obi thread (I found I am scared to post anywhere
else...LOL), Do you find Obi Ifin easily in NY? I do not here in
Florida, and very rarely does Fama carries it. as a child of My Father,
I need a constant supply of it :-)). Let me know if it is easier in
NY...
Axé ,
Maria de Oxala,Iyabeji :-))
Denise Oliver-Velez
> We are very keen on the separation of Orisha and the living from
>Egun, Egungun and the dead. One of our main sayings is: Lessa Egun,
>Lessa Orisa, and the "context usage" of this phrase is : "Where there
>is Life (orisha) ,there is not Death (Egun)".
>
> As I wrote somewhere here in this maze :-), our Mojuba to religious
>ancestors is done during the Mojuba at the cerimony of the Ipade. It is
>the only time too, that we will say their religious name (oruko). This
>with our mouths to the soil, because we are actually calling on them.
>Our male priests who were ancestors in that Terreiro have gone through
>a ritual process of "egunization" and after seven years of their
>death , they become Baba Egun (Egungun) and are as such "assentado" in
>the Terreiro. Different process occur with the Iyas who died who
>becomes part of the Iyamis. So it is a moment where we are dealing with
>religious ancestral spirits who are actually part of that physical Ashe
>of that Terreiro.
Thank you Iya Maria for that explanation...which leads me to another
question. You mentioned the Iyamis - is this a subject that can be
talked about?
>(school, work, etc).
>
>Just to make you envious :-) It is 74F here :-))
I am green (or blue from the cold) with envy!!!!!
Denise - in below zero wind chill upstate NY :(((
ido...@my-deja.com
no - i honestly do not look for much obi because there are only
particular cases when i throw it. so as for finding it in new york, i
wouldn't know. i would assume - with all the nigerian/west african
stores we have here - someone has got to have them.
Idowu
In article <92dsi1$375$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
olo...@my-deja.com
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:50:41 GMT, olo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Thank you Iya Maria for that explanation...which leads me to another
> question. You mentioned the Iyamis - is this a subject that can be
> talked about?
Yes, we can in general, at least how their cult is in Brazil. Since it
is primarily a women cult, too many *men* here to enter in specifics :-)
Since you are so interested in Orisha plants, for us the Iyamis are
absolutely linked to certain trees, so we can go into it.
Axé ,
osunm...@my-deja.com
Axé Iya Maria!
One reason to use obiabata is, no Odu, no ebo! The other is that no
initiation is require to use it, with the caveat: Respect the tradition
of one's ile!
Osunmilaya
who is quite expecting to appear in print again with no credit attached.
ido...@my-deja.com
i think i got lost (again) somewhere in here. your obi abata uses the
system of erin - but without the cowries, right? or is it the same
casts as real obi abata? in any case, my questions is - with both
cowry divination, and kola divination ebo can be drawn. how did it
come to be that coco and cowry (if using an identical casting system as
one of the other methods) together do not produce ebo? is coco and
cowry used like obi abata in the sense that it can be an offering, or
used to double check what the cowry says?
thanks,
Idowu
In article <92i44e$9qq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
osunm...@my-deja.com
It's the same as kola, but because of the light and dark sides you see
an Odu. I was taught that with this system ebo wasn't needed. As you
are probably aware only initiated people mark ebo here in the Americas,
in most cases. If I saw something that looked particularly serious, I'd
take it to orisha through meridilogun, and if need be, on to Ifa. I
have not known the coco/cowry obi to be used as an offering, but it is
used to confirm ebo/adimu in the same way as 4 cowry and obi agbon.
I do have some written information I developed on the system in a
workbook format so if anyone wants to, email me at above address.
Osunmilaya
In article <92ib1p$fai$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ido...@my-deja.com wrote:
> hi Osunmilaya,
>
> i think i got lost (again) somewhere in here. your obi abata uses the
> system of erin - but without the cowries, right? or is it the same
> casts as real obi abata? in any case, my questions is - with both
> cowry divination, and kola divination ebo can be drawn. how did it
> come to be that coco and cowry (if using an identical casting system
as
> one of the other methods) together do not produce ebo? is coco and
> cowry used like obi abata in the sense that it can be an offering, or
> used to double check what the cowry says?
>
> thanks,
> Idowu
>
ido...@my-deja.com
thanks for your answer. when you say you use obi agbon, do you mean to
say that you use kola attached to coconut?
thanks,
Idowu
In article <92ilv0$ohe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
osunm...@my-deja.com
Obi Agbon is the coconut obi that falls in five patterns. It was
developed, it has been said, because of the scarcity of kola.
Osunmilaya
In article <92j2n9$38b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ido...@my-deja.com wrote:
> hi Osunmilaya,
>
> thanks for your answer. when you say you use obi agbon, do you mean
to
> say that you use kola attached to coconut?
>
> thanks,
> Idowu
>
ido...@my-deja.com
i thought that obi was the coco in lukumi. obi agbon means kola nut
and coconut (giving the impression that it's a coco and kola attached
to each other), so this is why i think it's something different. all
these new terms and misinterpretations gets confusing <smile>.
Idowu
In article <92j7a2$6sa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
olo...@my-deja.com
ido...@my-deja.com wrote:
> hi Osunmilaya,
>
> i thought that obi was the coco in lukumi. obi agbon means kola nut
> and coconut (giving the impression that it's a coco and kola attached
> to each other), so this is why i think it's something different. all
> these new terms and misinterpretations gets confusing <smile>.
>
> Idowu
Axé Idowu and Osunmilaya!
Hey, I am still all confused! But in my case is age...I think...:-)
Worried about you guys under all that snow...
Enter the New Year with you right foot!!
Axé,
Maria de Oxala
YEWANDE KELLEY-JOHNSON
I know a Lucumi priestess who reads with obi abata (kola nut 4 lobes).
I've never seen her do it. When one reads with obi abata (kola nut 4
lobes) do you consider the directions that the obi is pointing in? Do
you look at where the obi have fallen(ie in the north or western part of
a mat or surface). If it's ilera, one male are the other obi consider
just dark/hidden in other words not male or female. If its ilera that's
come, do you kmow if anyone would also look and see the odu Obara in
that ilera?
Yes it is all confusing (the words) but I guess its all about
substituting what we easily had to recreate what had been.
Blessings of your ori in the New Yewar
Yewande
ido...@my-deja.com
i don't read with kola - so i guess i don't take direction, etc...into
consideration <smile>. but i know a few people that do. this goes,
however, with all types of divinations you will see people do various
things. some people taking into account the direction of owo merin and
also erindinlogun so there are all kinds of ways to interpret and get
a 'more in depth' reading.
Idowu
In article <3A4F946D...@home.com>,
Denise Oliver-Velez
Axe Iya Maria,
Can we start a new thread with what you can write about the Iyamis in
general? I was very interested in what that female scholar had to say
at the conference in Florida about the Mothers (as opposed to 'the
witches')
Unfortunately for us women here in Lucumi these are things that have
been lost.
I wonder if you would be willing to do a workshop for some Lucumi
female priests when you come up this way. The level of interest is
very high, I can assure you,
Alafia,
Denise
olo...@my-deja.com
Axé Denise!
First thing in the New Millenium, i will open a thread on them:-)
I cannot remember who talked about the Iyamis (I was too busy to be in
most papers). Who was it?
But I agree with you there are numerous misconceptions about the
Iyamis, which are the Great Mothers. I see online much confusion about
the Iyamis, Ajee, and I think the word witches already comes in English
or any western language with a heavy cultural weight of other concepts,
which becomes even more confusing.
Keep warm :-)
olo...@my-deja.com
>
> I know a Lucumi priestess who reads with obi abata (kola nut 4 lobes).
> I've never seen her do it. When one reads with obi abata (kola nut 4
> lobes) do you consider the directions that the obi is pointing in? Do
> you look at where the obi have fallen(ie in the north or western part
of
> a mat or surface). If it's ilera, one male are the other obi consider
> just dark/hidden in other words not male or female. If its ilera
that's
> come, do you kmow if anyone would also look and see the odu Obara in
> that ilera?
>
> Yes it is all confusing (the words) but I guess its all about
> substituting what we easily had to recreate what had been.
>
> Blessings of your ori in the New Yewar
> Yewande
Axe Yewande!
Obi abata (kolanut)is not an easy thing to throw. Mainly because he
is actually triangular and never identical, so it takes much practice ,
plus some have 5, 6 lobes. In Brazil we do take in account if it is
turned inward or outward. Also we usually throw four cowries,
meridilogun ,obi, in a round area (we make a circle with elekes and
throw inside-like an opon) so we do have directions to look. Some
people also read it if it falls one on top of the other, etc. Anyway
the complexity of the obi will depend much on the diviner...as we grow
older as Iyas/Babas we are taught more. But in general, except in an
Ebori where we are consecrating the Igba Ori and confirming things (it
is when the obi talks for the head), the obi Abata is not used to find
odus, but much more to confirm Odus that fell in the merindilogun and a
specific Ebo. It will be used after we use four cowries for
confirmation...since for us the Obi is the one that brings the final
confirmation.
I dont know if I was clear (I am cooking my New Years special food
as I write this). Anyway, what I mean is, why would we be interested in
seeing Odu all the time in Obi Abata, if we have meridilogun which
talks Odu much easier?
Have a warm New Years eve too :-)
Axe,
Maria de Oxala
YEWANDE KELLEY-JOHNSON
Alafia Denise,
I would appreciate knowing about such a workshop if it happens. Please
email me at Yew...@home.com
Yewande
aak...@my-deja.com
I am very interested in divination with Obì Àbàtà (kola nut). I have
read the following books on the subject:
1. BABALÁWO, MIN. RA IFÁGBÈMÍ, Ifá’s Obì Àbàtà, Athelia-Henrietta Press
(1999), ISBN 1-890157-12-0.
2. EPEGA, AFOLABI A., Obì Divination, Imolè Olúwa Institute (1994),
ISBN 0-9617724-1-7; Ifá, The Ancient Wisdom, Imolè Olúwa Institute
(1987), ISBN 0-9617724-0-9.
All these books can be traced back to Afolabi Epega. Are there other
voices on the subject?
****************
I have some other questions:
1. Can anyone give me the Yoruba breakdown on the word "Akinmoran"?
2. How do we interpret the Odù in the context of Obì Àbàtà divination?
3. Is there a "yes-no" aspect to this type of divination?
Looking forward to your responses.
Best regards,
Ifákúnlé
In article <9204du$ij8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
osunm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Alafia to All!
>
> Obi Abata is an interesting form of divination. I
> use the coconut shell/cowry because that's what I
> was given back in 198?. It was my understanding
> at that time that Agba Carlos Collazo developed
> this in NYC because 4 lobed Obi Abata is hard to
> come by. He gave a set to Afolabi Epega who gave
> the set to me. However, Denise tells me the
> coco/cowry instrument may be even older than
> that. From what it looks like it may even have a
> palo connection.
> I found it's best to keep your Obi questions
> fairly concrete, not abstract, and to make sure
> they have one part only, no options in the
> question.
> As Yewande says there are 9 patterns in which the
> Obi can fall. Also the individual pieces fall in
> different locations, north, south, east and west.
> In addition the pieces will fall pointing in a
> direction, again, north, south, east and west.
> These three factors influence the overall
> prediction of the reading. The overall pattern is
> then given the name of an Ifa Odu corresponding
> to its appearance, and I have seen for myself
> that there are definite correlations between the
> Obi and Merindilogun interpretations, although an
> Odu is not opened in Obi Abata. I hope others
> will share what they have learned about this
> system.
> Osunmilaya
osunm...@my-deja.com
aak...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Àláfíà,
>
> I am very interested in divination with Obì Àbàtà (kola nut). I have
> read the following books on the subject:
>
> 1. BABALÁWO, MIN. RA IFÁGBÈMÍ, Ifá’s Obì Àbàtà, Athelia-Henrietta
Press
> (1999), ISBN 1-890157-12-0.
>
> 2. EPEGA, AFOLABI A., Obì Divination, Imolè Olúwa Institute (1994),
> ISBN 0-9617724-1-7; Ifá, The Ancient Wisdom, Imolè Olúwa Institute
> (1987), ISBN 0-9617724-0-9.
>
> All these books can be traced back to Afolabi Epega. Are there other
> voices on the subject?
Since you are asking these questions I can tell you possibly found
these books did not answer fundamental questions about how to actually
do Obi Abata divination. I have written a book on this subject but I
have been jacked around by publishers so Oshun says forget it. I will
say that the material I shared with others has appeared in print
elsewhere without attribution, almost word for word.
> ****************
> I have some other questions:
>
> 1. Can anyone give me the Yoruba breakdown on the word "Akinmoran"?
I can't. Maybe someone who speaks more Yoruba than me can do so.
> 2. How do we interpret the Odù in the context of Obì Àbàtà divination?
You don't open an Odu in Obi Abata so the Odu is not what is
interpreted. Opening an Odu requires that one should mark ebo or
probably do some sort of sacrifice. What if you are not qualified to do
that? What is actually interpreted is the nine patterns, the four
directions in which they point, and the positions in which the pieces
fall.
> 3. Is there a "yes-no" aspect to this type of divination?
If I have four cowries available from a specific orisha, I use those to
get the 5 yes/no patterns (ejife, alafia, oyekun, ocana sode, itagua).
Otherwise I use the Obi, but I specify what I'm doing as regards asking
for a yes/no with the five patterns, versus reading the nine patterns.
Osunmilaya
> Looking forward to your responses.
>
> Best regards,
> Ifákúnlé
>
olo...@my-deja.com
>
> Since you are asking these questions I can tell you possibly found
> these books did not answer fundamental questions about how to actually
> do Obi Abata divination. I have written a book on this subject but I
> have been jacked around by publishers so Oshun says forget it. I will
> say that the material I shared with others has appeared in print
> elsewhere without attribution, almost word for word.
>
> Osunmilaya
As an eternal defender of copyright, why you did not SUE? :-)
I would!
Axe,
Maria de Oxala
aak...@my-deja.com
Thank you for your prompt responses.
Regarding the books I read, I have learned the mechanics of performing
the Obė Ābātā divination. I have also learned some basics on
interpreting the nine formations and the orientations of the segments.
The books I read have been great on these aspects of divination.
Regarding the Odų, the books I read have NOT satisfied my appetite.
Epega says that the fallen Obė segments yield a single leg of one of
the 16 major Odų. It is understood that the Obė diviner is NOT opening
the Odų here. The role of the Odų in Obė divination is to provide
further commentary on the question asked to the Oracle. There is no
obligation here to make ebo.
It is with this understanding that I ask again: "How do we interpret
the Odų in the context of Obė Ābātā divination?"
Regarding your unpublished book, would you share some information with
me? Whatever you feel is appropriate, of course. I am eager to learn
as much about Obė divination as I can.
A final point: I do I-Ching divination and Obė Ābātā divination
together. I find that they complement each other very well. The more
I learn about each, the better benefit I gain.
Looking forward to your correspondence and to those of all interested
parties. Peace.
+++ Ifákúnlé
osunm...@my-deja.com
Well....after a tremendous amount of spiritual/intellectual struggle
over the years, it's still my contention despite what Baba Epega says,
that one is not pulling an Odu/one leg of the major Odu in Obi Abata.
Not in my experience anyway(only 20 years reading Obi, 4 years
initiated). The prayers and invocations most of us use, as well as the
ritual (if any was used) to make the coconut shell/cowry Obi pieces,
don't have us able to go to that level. HOWEVER! :-)You will begin to
see correlations between meridilogun and the Obi interpretations, if
you can read the merindilogun. And like Iya Maria said, then why not
read the merindilogun? My reply is that there are circumstances in
which one would use Obi, those being: Not initiated to orisha, don't
want to/can't perform ebo, among others.
My experience is that Obi teaches one to immediately recognize Odu Ifa
when they fall, and to be able to develop a deeper understanding in the
process of reading merindilogun. I have had a more difficult time
seeing the correlation between Obi and the meji Odu Ifa. It's possible
that that may be due to a lack of information.
You might like this! There is a Chinese divination system that uses 3
throws of 4 pieces. I found a book about it in a remainder bookstore.
It seems to have the same relationship to I Ching that Obi has to
merindilogun in abstractness.
Osunmilaya
In article <93a8p0$ps2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
olo...@my-deja.com
> Well....after a tremendous amount of spiritual/intellectual struggle
> over the years, it's still my contention despite what Baba Epega says,
> that one is not pulling an Odu/one leg of the major Odu in Obi Abata.
> Not in my experience anyway(only 20 years reading Obi, 4 years
> initiated). The prayers and invocations most of us use, as well as the
> ritual (if any was used) to make the coconut shell/cowry Obi pieces,
> don't have us able to go to that level. HOWEVER! :-)You will begin to
> see correlations between meridilogun and the Obi interpretations, if
> you can read the merindilogun. And like Iya Maria said, then why not
> read the merindilogun? My reply is that there are circumstances in
> which one would use Obi, those being: Not initiated to orisha, don't
> want to/can't perform ebo, among others.
But see, it is exactly this factor , that you do not have to be
initiated, etc, that makes to me a non-interesting divining tool. Since
in my tradition it makes no sense for a non-initiate to divine, unless
is 4 consacrate cowries to their Igba Ori for instance, we really
believe that divining by a non-initiate, makes no sense. it is like
doing psychotheraphy to yourself. It is upon receiving the ashe that we
can talk to Orishas, etc.
Axe,
Maria de Oxala
anthony9...@gmail.com
Later on, with the purpose of making money, people began to write about Obi Abata, and immediately there was confusion from all sectors. Babalawo Fatumbi in one of his books, gives a good explanation of the different sectors of the Opon Ifa, this information is important if you want to expand the knowledge of Obi Abata. The system is tedious, it forces the person to reflect and look for hidden answers.
Libations of water must be offered before you divine. And you must invoke the oracle by saying; Akinmoran three times. If you know the signs Ifa, write the Odu down. You can incorporate this information into the reading.
I will talk more about this in my second edition of Eshu Osanyin,to come out soon.
Oluo Ifa De
natural...@gmail.com
If anyone is interested in any kind of obi (kolanuts) or cowrie, bata, omi osun (osun water), or any other Orisha or Ifa, please contact me. Imay be able in most cases get them to you for free! natural...@gmail.com
On Sunday, December 24, 2000 at 9:36:00 AM UTC-5, olo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <923p6i$522$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> osunm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Alafia Denise!
> > Hope this "real winter" is treating you and N. okay!
> > I've found the Obi Abata to be very portable indeed. If I have four
> > yes/no patterns (ejife, alafia, oyekun, ocana sode, itagua). Otherwise
> > I use the Obi, but I specify what I'm doing as regards asking for a
> > I use a brief mojuba prayer and sprinkle some water. In Afolabi
> Epega's
> > book he states the only prayer needed is "Akinmoran, Akinmoran,
> > Akinmoran." I have used an ate to throw on and also the bare ground.
> > The results seem to be accurate however it's done as long as the
> > inquirer doesn't ask the same question over and over, or the question
> > is too vague.
> >
> > Osunmilaya
>
> Axe Osunmilaya and Denise!
>
> Mighty nice finding the two of you in the same thread :-))
>
> I wanted to ask something that has confused me profoundly. Why call
> the coconut/cowrie divination "obi abata" ?? In the name of
> globalization (smiling) dont you think it is quite confusing, specially
> when we are talking inter-traditions? It is already hard for me to
> convey to Brazilian Olorishas that here when people say Obi they mean
> agbon or coconut, now I have to explain that Obi abata is a cowrie/coco
> divination? You guys make it hard on this foreigner :-)))
> I know a Brazilian who bought a book called Obi Abata and was
> expecting to get a kolanut with it, and did get something similar to
> the one you are talking about, Osunmilaya.
>
> Anyway, as to being portable. I thought of something : When throwing
> the Meridilogun, dont you guys just use at times just four cowries of
> the Meridilogun to ask a yes or no question? To me, although I have to
> have two sets of consacreted meridilogun, one for traveling, one that
> cannot, I find the meridilogun very portable.
>
> The only similarity I find with any of our Kongo practices in
> divination, is that they are very keen on the place that the divination
> piece falls, or how it falls, much more tha the Yoruba-derived
> divinations, which are more open or closed oriented.
>
> Axe to both of you,
>
> Maria de Oxala