Book Alert: EL MONTE in English
E. C. Ballard
alone those of people other than myself, but i noticed this announcement
and thought I'd share it because many people ask me repeatedly about good
material in English concerning Congo religion in Cuba.
Finally it appears, the famous "El Monte" by Lydia Cabrera will be
released in English. An online Botanica is taking advance orders for
shipment when the book arrives. It is available only in hard Cover at this
time.It is scheduled, I understand for shipment in December. So you might
get it in time for Chrsitmas. ;-)
Contact Rick's Spiritual Supplies and Botanica.
email: ricks...@aol.com
website: http://members.aol.com/rickspirit/
phone: 215 634-7866
He's asking $45.00 inclusive of shipping and handling and indicates he
accepts credit cards and money orders. I've already ordered my copy and
one for a friend. As I said, I am breaking with my usual habit of not
passing along ads because this is a must book for anyone interested in
Congo religion and represents the first serious title of its kind
translated into English. It also deals with Ocha and Abakua, so there's
lots of good information here for everyone. Anyone who has read the
original knows it to be a very good title. the spanish version is in
virtually all botanicas in the US.
SAlamaleko,
Eoghan
--
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Nsambiempungo l'acutara
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ebal...@sas.upenn.edu
MITCHELL ANSTINE
That's great news, I would however suggest that folks call Rick rather
than post him as he graciously himself told me very seldom reads much
less responds to email.
Padre Mitchell
Nganga Nkisi Siete Rayos
Malecum Nsala
Eoghan
Sorcere...@webtv.net (MITCHELL ANSTINE) wrote:
He's getting better. I have nagged him about that! ;-) He explained to me
that his computer was down for a while. But good advise none the less!
Eoghan
Eoghan Ballard
Center for Folklore & Ethnology
University of Pennsylvania
E. C. Ballard
between Palo and Ocha. They are nowhere near the same. For example, one
doesn't speak (at least not in Kimbisa, Batalla Congo, or Changani) of
"cuarto de Palo". And as for her information, what is in this book bears
up under scrutiny even if it doesn't reveal a great deal of information.
What you need to remember is that there is neither the same quantity nor
quality of information available on Palo in print, either in English or
for that matter, in Spanish as there is for Ocha. Given that, and the fact
that there are many within Palo who are Ozainistas, it is worth getting.
Sala Maleko,
Eoghan
Tata Enkise 7 Rallos Quimbisa Santo Cristo Buen Viaje
KnightBlnc
lot to be desired for this kind of research. This volume is a good refernece
for OCHA and also an aspiring Ozainista but besides some related Palo stories
and the names of some of the flora and fauna in Palo it really is not that
good. But if you are willing to pay $45.00 for a book that is worth $25 go
right ahead.
There ia also a spanish book store in Miami called "La Moderna Poesia" Modern
Poetry that will probably stock the English version of this book also without
the inflated price.
And one more thing about Cabrera's books, she was an aleyo and at that time
santeros and paleros would not give up those secrets so easily. Books are good
to reference but were you really learn is the "cuarto de santo"(ocha room) or
in this case "cuarto de palo"(palo ceremony).
Respectfully,
Manny
OloObatala
Orlando Fiol
knigh...@aol.com writes:
> The book "El Monte" even though listed as an authority on Palo really leaves a
> lot to be desired for this kind of research.
Would you care to share with us on what points you feel there is not
enough or incorrect information in the book?
>This volume is a good reference
> for OCHA and also an aspiring Ozainista but besides some related Palo stories
> and the names of some of the flora and fauna in Palo it really is not that
> good.
Would you then care to grace the world with a properly researched and
accurate treatise about herbs in ocha and palo written by you?
>But if you are willing to pay $45.00 for a book that is worth $25 go
> right ahead.
Since two generations of scholars still consider this book an invaluble
resource, I can safely assume that the book is worth more than $25 to
them.
> There ia also a spanish book store in Miami called "La Moderna Poesia" Modern
> Poetry that will probably stock the English version of this book also without
> the inflated price.
I can't quibble for people getting a book cheaper at one place than at
another.
> And one more thing about Cabrera's books, she was an aleyo and at that time
> santeros and paleros would not give up those secrets so easily. Books are good
> to reference but were you really learn is the "cuarto de santo"(ocha room) or
> in this case "cuarto de palo"(palo ceremony).
Funny, whenever an aleyo writes a book that a santero or paloer
wishes they had written, the claims always fly out of their mouths
that misinformation was given to the aleyo. Why don't the people
who claim they know the real deal write the books for all to
examine? Oh, I forgot, that's awo. There are some of us who would like
to learn what goes on in the cuarto de santo or palo before we're in the
hotseat. Acording to you and others, this is impossible, and this, my
friend, is what has kept this religion in utter barbarity in the New
World when it should have evolved as it continues to do in Africa.
Orlando
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Denise Oliver-Velez
On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:33:30 -0500, ebal...@sas.upenn.edu (E. C.
Ballard) wrote:
>I don't normally go in for gratuitous announcements about business, let
>alone those of people other than myself, but i noticed this announcement
>and thought I'd share it because many people ask me repeatedly about good
>material in English concerning Congo religion in Cuba.
>
Hurray!!!!!!!
Having spent many years laboriously translating Cabrera which requires
working with a Cuban elder to get the meaning of the Lucumi she has
recorded - that's great news!!!!!
Was just digging through it cross-referencing herbs for my garden
plantings yesterday - trying to figure out what I'm going to need to
grow in a greenhouse, Her work is far more useful to me as a gardener
than Verger's Ewe - since it covers many more of the herbs used in
this hemisphere.
Will be ordering!!!!!
Denise Oliver-Velez
>
>And one more thing about Cabrera's books, she was an aleyo and at that time
>santeros and paleros would not give up those secrets so easily. Books are good
>to reference but were you really learn is the "cuarto de santo"(ocha room) or
>in this case "cuarto de palo"(palo ceremony).
>
>Respectfully,
>Manny
>OloObatala
Cabrera was a respected ethnographer (not like Whippler) - and her
books are on the bookshelves of many elders who normally don't read
books about the religion.
Not everyone is interested in or called to make ocha. So they will
not learn those type of things from the room. But her books are
wonderful source for the herbs for making baths - which one does not
need to be initiated to do - since anyone can work with their eguns,
and for the scholarly inclined, or just for those folks trying to
learn more about their own cultural roots/traditions - her work is
wonderful. It is a shame that it has not been available in English
all these years.
There will always be "errors" in books - but there are also errors in
real life practice - and sometimes those errors are just differences -
look at the differences even between ritual practice in Havana and
Matanzas.
Jus' my 2 cents,
Denise
E. C. Ballard
other works is that the elders who spoke with her knew who and what she
was. She was and is universally respected in Cuba. It was clear that some
of those who shared with her expected her to become an initiate at some
time in the future, and they also for the most part approved of what she
was trying to do. Further, she had relatives who were involved with the
religion, although they were not in her immediate family. This was known
as well.
For these reasons, observations to the contrary not withstanding, she got
more cooperation than opposition. As Denise said, many in the religion use
these books as resources. When I presented my godfather in Kimbisa, Roque
Zamora Cabrera, who has about 40 years in the religion, with a copy of her
book on Kimbisa which is not available at the moment in Cuba, everyone in
the munanso practically ate it for breakfast. The enthusiasm for her work
is that strong there.
Eoghan
KnightBlnc
With all due respect to you one does not go around announcing to the world that
they are a Tata scratched to Siete Rayos. Especially Cristo Buen Viaje which is
considered the "ajiaco" of Palo.
The reason there is not so much information about Palo in print is the fact
that it is way more secretive as a religion than OCHA is. Do you see books
written on IFA by babalowes that are "worth their salt"? No because they keep
the information to themselves. To get in you must "knock on the door", is a
saying that goes by the way of OCHA.
My statement pertained as to why somebody should spend $45 dollars for a $25
dollar book? That still has yet to be answered.
As far as being an Ozainista, to quote your words, Palo is Palo, and Ocha is
Ocha...
Respectfully,
Manny
OloObatala
KnightBlnc
>Would you care to share with us on what points you feel there is not
enough or incorrect information in the book?
If you have OCHA made then I would be most happy to.
>Funny, whenever an aleyo writes a book that a santero or paloer
wishes they had written, the claims always fly out of their mouths
that misinformation was given to the aleyo.
It is not really funny, it is sad. Because a santero or a palero would share
this information with their "godchildren". That is the legacy of our religion.
Or if not they would share it with those close to them of their religious
community. What gives you the right to demand to know what is for us
something that has to be earned?
>Why don't the people who claim they know the real deal write the books for all
to
examine?
Once again why should I write something you have no write to learn unless you
have passed through initiation? A child does not run before he learns to
crawl.
>There are some of us who would like
to learn what goes on in the cuarto de santo or palo before we're in the
hotseat.
You can learn many things before you are initiated, it is just you do not want
to learn those things. You seem to want to cut to the chase.
>According to you and others, this is impossible, and this, my friend, is what
has kept this religion in utter barbarity in the New World when it should have
evolved as it continues to do in Africa.
This religion is barbarity to those that do not understand it. The religion
did evolve my friend. It evolved in Cuba and became "Santeria", and in Brazil
it became "Candomble". We took our African antecedents and created something
with love and caring and it survived. If the African way is so good to you go
back there and reclaim the religion they have. Do not come demanding from the
Latino barbarians what they have carefully preserved.
Manny
OloObatala
Orlando Fiol
> With all due respect to you one does not go around announcing to the world that
> they are a Tata scratched to Siete Rayos. Especially Cristo Buen Viaje which is
> considered the "ajiaco" of Palo.
If he feels proud of it, let him boast about it.
> The reason there is not so much information about Palo in print is the fact
> that it is way more secretive as a religion than OCHA is. Do you see books
> written on IFA by babalowes that are "worth their salt"? No because they keep
> the information to themselves. To get in you must "knock on the door", is a
> saying that goes by the way of OCHA.
I think these "sayings" are what keep us in the dark about too much. We
are in the West. We are not in cultures where one knocks at the door
before learning anything. That is a reality that we must face and deal
with in a rational manner. Most people want to know what is behind the
door so they can choose whether or not to enter the room. This religion
demands that people trust enough to enter the room first and then learn
what's inside. Thsi goes against many people's grains, including my own.
Orlando Fiol
> Orlando,
> >Would you care to share with us on what points you feel there is not
> enough or incorrect information in the book?
>
> If you have OCHA made then I would be most happy to.
You believe that information must be earned through initiation. I do
not. I don't believe that in any religion and I shun any religion that
demands that I become initiated before I learn.
> It is not really funny, it is sad. Because a santero or a palero would share
> this information with their "godchildren". That is the legacy of our religion.
This information doesn't have to be private. Aside from it being "the
legacy of our religion," give me three rational reasons why danger would
come to a person who was given information before initiation that is
normally saved for after.
> Or if not they would share it with those close to them of their religious
> community. What gives you the right to demand to know what is for us
> something that has to be earned?
The same right that I feel I have to read the Koran, the sutras or the
Tora.
> Once again why should I write something you have no write to learn unless you
> have passed through initiation? A child does not run before he learns to
> crawl.
I am not a child. I have no need to be reduced to child status without
my consent. I am an adult and a critical thinker. If I am going to
identify myself with a religion as a practitioner, then I have to be sure
that that religion's practices are what I want to practice. I was not
born into Santeria; I have a choice whether or not to accept it in my
life. One of the ways I can make that choice intelligently is to gain
as much information as I can. I wouldn't want my tongue pierced to
received ache de lengua, so I would want to know about that before it
could happen to me. Now that I know it can happen to me, I know I don't
want to receive it. That was just an example of how information can help
me make an intelligent choice.
> You can learn many things before you are initiated, it is just you do not want
> to learn those things. You seem to want to cut to the chase.
And what, pray tell, is the chase, in your opinion? I believe that the
odu is the chase.
> This religion is barbarity to those that do not understand it.
While the rest of the civilized world shares its religion freely and
publically, we remain shrowded in secrecy for antiquated reasons. That
is barbarity.
>The religion
> did evolve my friend. It evolved in Cuba and became "Santeria", and in Brazil
> it became "Candomble". We took our African antecedents and created something
> with love and caring and it survived.
How much of it survived in truth? If the system of divination is
fragmented, if the language no longer has meaning to its practitioners
and if the rituals have become convused due to misinformation, how much
has it survived?
>If the African way is so good to you go
> back there and reclaim the religion they have.
I wouldn't be reclaiming it because iit was never mine to begin with. I
would be learning it out of respect for it, not as my birth right.
>Do not come demanding from the
> Latino barbarians what they have carefully preserved.
I am latino like you. I do not demand anything from anyone. I ask and
if I am denied, I keep asking till I am accepted. taht's what you're
supposed to do when you throw coco. YOu ask and ask differently until
you ge the answer you want. The answers I want are the truth. I seek
the truth about this religion. I am not wrong for seeking that. I am
also not wrong for wanting to know it before I decide to make a lifetime
commitment to it. If you want to leap before you look, that's fine for
you.
BStuartM
fact
> > that it is way more secretive as a religion than OCHA is. Do you see
books
> > written on IFA by babalowes that are "worth their salt"? No because
they keep
> > the information to themselves. To get in you must "knock on the door",
is a
> > saying that goes by the way of OCHA.
> I think these "sayings" are what keep us in the dark about too much. We
> are in the West. We are not in cultures where one knocks at the door
> before learning anything. That is a reality that we must face and deal
> with in a rational manner. Most people want to know what is behind the
> door so they can choose whether or not to enter the room. This religion
> demands that people trust enough to enter the room first and then learn
> what's inside. Thsi goes against many people's grains, including my own.
>
> Orlando
>
no choices in "determining" one's religion. Back "in the day" one's culture
defined one's religion. It was not a matter of choosing faith. Those in
the culture were raised in the religion; the need for secrecy didn't exist
because all belonged to that faith. Outside cultures knew very little of
what happened inside the religious confines of other cultures because they
did not participate in it.
Just a thought on secrecy:
Stuart.
Orlando Fiol
> I think one thing that we all forget is that, once upon a time, there were
> no choices in "determining" one's religion. Back "in the day" one's culture
> defined one's religion. It was not a matter of choosing faith. Those in
> the culture were raised in the religion; the need for secrecy didn't exist
> because all belonged to that faith. Outside cultures knew very little of
> what happened inside the religious confines of other cultures because they
> did not participate in it.
various religious practices in cultures that are not their own, the more
secrecy exists where there shouldn't be any. Fact is, we're living in an
age where outsiders to religions are becoming curious and even getting
involved in religions that are not their native ones. So, because of
this trend towards the exploration of outside religions, the secrecy has
to give way if the religions are expected to gain new adherents from the
outside.
Orlando
Eoghan
Palo than on Ocha because Palo is more secretive than Ocha.
However logical it may sound, it is only an opinion and not an especially
accurate one, although in fairness, maybe he has only met secretive
paleros. I don't even know if he has met any paleros or not, so I won't
hazard a guess about that.
What I will say is that my experience has been quite the opposite. Both in
the US and in Cuba I have found paleros by and large much more open than
either those in Ocha or in Ifa.
Now I will offer my own thoughts on the matter. Why wouild someone find
paleros secretive. generally if they feel someone is antagonistic toward
their tradition they will probably not even offer the information that
they are paleros.
There is a history of knocking Palo. Many santeros have used it as a
"patsy" to counter what they feel to be antagonism against their religion.
It is very convenient to say "Hey, we only do good. These other guys are
the bad guys." There is a long history complicated by cultural hegemony
and ethnic rivalry and with a fair sprinkling of political implications
that have converged to make religious followers of Yoruban traditions
whether in Cuba or Brazil tend to criticize their neighboring Bantu
religious tradition. In Cuba that meant Palo. In Brazil it was first
Candomble de Congo or Angola, Macumba, and eventually within recent times
Kimbanda.
People have a funny way of becoming reticent when faced with prejudice.
However, when not faced with that kind of attitude, the followers of Congo
traditions are far more open. They will invite non practitioners to much
more of their rituals than will followers of Ocha.
Just my experience.
E. C. Ballard
in going after more practitioners. That notion is a very Christian and
Islamic one. It is foreign to African religions generally.
Mitchell
I appreciated and agreed with the majority of your posting in regards to
openess in the outer aspects of followers, priests, priestess's of the
various Kongo based religions. And I would like to add my own personal
thoughts to that discussion. Spending most of this life in the western
culture has brought me to the conclusion that by and large the western
culture has more of a stigma about working, walking and talking with
their ancestors and various spirits of the dead. For some that probably
is for the best, for in their present or past lifetime their have sadly
and badly mistreated many along the path they walked and by turning
their backs upon these ancestors they are dulling their conscious
awareness of their actions and deeds. A well known widely viewed Xmas
Mass is begun by the father of that gigantic church dumping salt all
around the altar in a direct attempt to drive away the spirits of the
dead that organization has crushed and tortured over the years. The
folks that tread lightly upon this land are those that listen, walk and
talk with their ancestors and the spirits of the dead. They hold their
heads up high and conduct themselves with a clear consciousness of
awareness of their personal actions. These are in my opinion the
followers, priests and priestess of the Kongo based religions.
Malecum Nsala,
Orlando Fiol
> Orlando offers an interesting theory that fewer books have been written on
> Palo than on Ocha because Palo is more secretive than Ocha.
>
> However logical it may sound, it is only an opinion and not an especially
> accurate one, although in fairness, maybe he has only met secretive
> paleros. I don't even know if he has met any paleros or not, so I won't
> hazard a guess about that.
they have been as open with me about their practices and beliefs as they
felt they could be. It was Manny, I think, who said that paleros were
more secretive than santeros, but I could be wrong in my attribution of
this phrase to him.
> Now I will offer my own thoughts on the matter. Why would someone find
> paleros secretive. generally if they feel someone is antagonistic toward
> their tradition they will probably not even offer the information that
> they are paleros.
This sounds logical to me.
> > There is a history of knocking Palo. Many santeros have used it as a
> "patsy" to counter what they feel to be antagonism against their religion.
> It is very convenient to say "Hey, we only do good. These other guys are
> the bad guys." There is a long history complicated by cultural hegemony
> and ethnic rivalry and with a fair sprinkling of political implications
> that have converged to make religious followers of Yoruban traditions
> whether in Cuba or Brazil tend to criticize their neighboring Bantu
> religious tradition. In Cuba that meant Palo. In Brazil it was first
> Candomble de Congo or Angola, Macumba, and eventually within recent times
> Kimbanda.
Since I am not a palero, I will defer to your expertise on the following
question. Do you think paleros on the average possess more intents to
do evil with their practices than santeros do? I'm speaking strictly
about the creation and manipulations of spells or brujeria.
> People have a funny way of becoming reticent when faced with prejudice.
> However, when not faced with that kind of attitude, the followers of Congo
> traditions are far more open. They will invite non practitioners to much
> more of their rituals than will followers of Ocha.
I think taht the exposure both paleros and santeros give the public to
their rituals is about the same.
Peace,
Orlando Fiol
> Sala Malecum and Greetings Eoghan,
More Arabic.
>Spending most of this life in the western
> culture has brought me to the conclusion that by and large the western
> culture has more of a stigma about working, walking and talking with
> their ancestors and various spirits of the dead.
Perhaps. However, there is a large folk tradition of Christians doing
various rituals to honor their dead and their ancestors.
>For some that probably
> is for the best, for in their present or past lifetime their have sadly
> and badly mistreated many along the path they walked and by turning
> their backs upon these ancestors they are dulling their conscious
> awareness of their actions and deeds.
I think that few people consciously refuse to honor their ancestors
because of guilt. This is a ludicrous notion. I think most people
don't honor their dead or ancestors because they haven't been taught how.
Plain and simple.
>A well known widely viewed Xmas
Why can't you say Christmas? Christmas was given its name because of
Jesus the Christ. You want a neutral non Christian name for it, call it
winter solstice or something.
> Mass is begun by the father of that gigantic church dumping salt all
> around the altar in a direct attempt to drive away the spirits of the
> dead that organization has crushed and tortured over the years.
And African religions do nothing to temporarily drive away the
spirits of hte dead? One theory for the useage of bells on the bata is
that they are meant to scare away Eggun until the end of the ceremony.
>The folks that tread lightly upon this land are those that listen, walk
and
> talk with their ancestors and the spirits of the dead. They hold their
> heads up high and conduct themselves with a clear consciousness of
> awareness of their personal actions. These are in my opinion the
> followers, priests and priestess of the Kongo based religions.
Can you find no gentler people than those that practice Congo religions?
I would put Buddhists and Native Americans pretty high up on the
gentility scale.
> Malecum Nsala,
More corrupted Arabic.
Peace,
ORlando
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
(snip)
>And African religions do nothing to temporarily drive away the
>spirits of hte dead? One theory for the useage of bells on the bata is
>that they are meant to scare away Eggun until the end of the ceremony.
Hmmm...interesting - I thought the bells were to attract orisha to
come and dance - or for Oshun who is associated with bata.
Though I can understand the need to shoo away egun when you want
orisha to come (grin)
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
>Since I am not a palero, I will defer to your expertise on the following
>question. Do you think paleros on the average possess more intents to
>do evil with their practices than santeros do? I'm speaking strictly
>about the creation and manipulations of spells or brujeria.
I'm interested in Eoghans response to this query - but will add
thoughts of my own as an outsider (not palera) who has a
palero/santero husband. I have met lots of people who are initiated
into both systems - and some who are only in one or the other.
I think it really depends upon the individual...some people enter into
palo and stay initiated only there strictly because it is less
expensive. Many because their forte has been in working with egun and
palo more closely relates to egun. Others use nkisi for some things
and orisha for others - it has been said that orisha are much slower
to respond.
I have a friend that stated to me simply that she finds consulting
with her chamolongos much easier (they are more portable) so that if
she is out in the street, shopping, or not at home she can quickly do
divination - whereas obi/merindilogun/ifa is a far more complex ritual
process.
I think there has been a lot of stereotyping of paleros as "malefic"
and "santeros" as "beatific" - which also parallels the view of
Voudoun (Haitian) versus Senses (sp?) (Dominican).
My 2 cents,
Denise
E. C. Ballard
answer is still not a simple one.
First, let me dispose of the issue of "arabic" and "Christian".
Salamalekum has been conflated with arabic. It is not nor was it ever. The
unfortunate similarity between "Saala maleko" and Salam alekim has made it
easy for those who do not know (and those are all but a handful) to
confuse the two phrases. The fact is that the arabic speaking and islamic
presence was always fairly thin in Cuba. It existed, but not in numbers
strong enough to significantly impress their culture, religion, or
language upon the developing cuban culture. So that one while easy to
conclude, is flat out wrong.
Saala maleko is in Kikongo and closely related languages (such as Kimbundu
and Kituba) a greeting of departure that essentially means "take it easy"
or "be careful" with a hint of "stay out of sight". A very logical wish
given what slave and especially cimmaron life in Cuba was like.
As for the "bad" rap. First of all, my godfather in Palo makes it very
clear that we have a responsibility to relieve suffering and improve the
world. That is number one.
Historically there are two parts to this answer and if you are strongly
committed to a world view that is essentially dualistic, you won't get it.
If you are, then all I can say is I feel for your burden. believing the
world is either-or must be very painful. Fortunately, I am able to
distinguish shades. It complicates life, but makes it much richer. Kongo
culture was one that recognized that what may be good for one person or
one people/community was not always good for all. This may have been born
out of the experience of continual warfare which made it obvious that
victory could be sweet for the victor and bitter for the loser. On the
other hand, I prefer to think that it was because they had the
intelligence to recognize that on much less simplistic planes, what served
in one situation could be problematic in another. Either way, eventually
they came to see Good as what was good for their clan and family and while
not necessarily wishing evil on others, were not uncomfortable with the
realization that sometimes what was necessary for their welfare would be
bad for someone else.
In modern Palo, then, we find a code of behavior, whether in Palo Endoqui
or in Palo Nsambi (Cristiano o Judio) that does not say certain things are
always wrong. Since good and evil are viewed with a greater degree of
relativism than Ocha generally admits to (and admits to is the significant
element here) paleros may be perceived as more willing to take on "dirty"
cases.
In point of fact, my experience (and we are talking subjective individual
experience here) is that there are far more ethical and upright religious
people in Palo than the general view allows and far more bad folk in Ocha
and Ifa than the average member of those traditions will admit to either.
I guess the ultimate answer is that there is nothing in the nature of Palo
or Paleros that makes them as a group any better or worse than any other
group of people affiliated by religious association.
There has been a lot of use of Palo (and other congo derived groups such
as Kimbanda) as fall guys at an historic point when followers of Yoruban
religions were trying to improve their image. These views have
proliferated, especially in the incredibly impoverished literature on the
subject that exists in English and lead to such conversations as this.
Saala Maleko ye Nzambi tulendo nwena akutara,
Denise Oliver-Velez
Ballard) wrote:
>I will respond to this one. It may not be difficult to answer but the
>answer is still not a simple one.
>
>First, let me dispose of the issue of "arabic" and "Christian".
>Salamalekum has been conflated with arabic. It is not nor was it ever. The
>unfortunate similarity between "Saala maleko" and Salam alekim has made it
>easy for those who do not know (and those are all but a handful) to
>confuse the two phrases. The fact is that the arabic speaking and islamic
>presence was always fairly thin in Cuba. It existed, but not in numbers
>strong enough to significantly impress their culture, religion, or
>language upon the developing cuban culture. So that one while easy to
>conclude, is flat out wrong.
>
Thanks for re-explaining this - I've seen you mention it before but it
was good to have a reminder (it reminds me of my time in the Congo
when I heard words I thought were Spanish - but was taught later that
they were either Lingala or Kicongo influences on diasporic Spanish.
Words like "samba" for example.
>Saala maleko is in Kikongo and closely related languages (such as Kimbundu
>and Kituba) a greeting of departure that essentially means "take it easy"
>or "be careful" with a hint of "stay out of sight". A very logical wish
>given what slave and especially cimmaron life in Cuba was like.
>
>As for the "bad" rap. First of all, my godfather in Palo makes it very
>clear that we have a responsibility to relieve suffering and improve the
>world. That is number one.
An important ethical view!
>
>Historically there are two parts to this answer and if you are strongly
>committed to a world view that is essentially dualistic, you won't get it.
>If you are, then all I can say is I feel for your burden. believing the
>world is either-or must be very painful. Fortunately, I am able to
>distinguish shades. It complicates life, but makes it much richer. Kongo
>culture was one that recognized that what may be good for one person or
>one people/community was not always good for all. This may have been born
>out of the experience of continual warfare which made it obvious that
>victory could be sweet for the victor and bitter for the loser. On the
>other hand, I prefer to think that it was because they had the
>intelligence to recognize that on much less simplistic planes, what served
>in one situation could be problematic in another. Either way, eventually
>they came to see Good as what was good for their clan and family and while
>not necessarily wishing evil on others, were not uncomfortable with the
>realization that sometimes what was necessary for their welfare would be
>bad for someone else.
>
>In modern Palo, then, we find a code of behavior, whether in Palo Endoqui
>or in Palo Nsambi (Cristiano o Judio) that does not say certain things are
>always wrong. Since good and evil are viewed with a greater degree of
>relativism than Ocha generally admits to (and admits to is the significant
>element here) paleros may be perceived as more willing to take on "dirty"
>cases.
Do you think that perhaps you could give a hypothetical example - I'm
interested?
>
>In point of fact, my experience (and we are talking subjective individual
>experience here) is that there are far more ethical and upright religious
>people in Palo than the general view allows and far more bad folk in Ocha
>and Ifa than the average member of those traditions will admit to either.
heh heh - guess I'm not average (grin) I think there are rotten apples
in all systems (none get excluded - including atheists)
>
>I guess the ultimate answer is that there is nothing in the nature of Palo
>or Paleros that makes them as a group any better or worse than any other
>group of people affiliated by religious association.
>
>There has been a lot of use of Palo (and other congo derived groups such
>as Kimbanda) as fall guys at an historic point when followers of Yoruban
>religions were trying to improve their image. These views have
>proliferated, especially in the incredibly impoverished literature on the
>subject that exists in English and lead to such conversations as this.
>
Do you think that some of the similarities between Palo and Voudoun
and the rascist portrayals of Voudoun in general have helped influence
this - certainly the media which has always used images of "witch
doctors" and "zombies" and "cannibals" to lump all African belief
systems under for mass consumption has influenced this distancing - as
well as some rascism within the Caribbean community?
Denise
E. C. Ballard
(Denise Oliver-Velez) wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:24:55 -0500, ebal...@sas.upenn.edu (E. C.
> Ballard) wrote:
> >In modern Palo, then, we find a code of behavior, whether in Palo Endoqui
> >or in Palo Nsambi (Cristiano o Judio) that does not say certain things are
> >always wrong. Since good and evil are viewed with a greater degree of
> >relativism than Ocha generally admits to (and admits to is the significant
> >element here) paleros may be perceived as more willing to take on "dirty"
> >cases.
>
> Do you think that perhaps you could give a hypothetical example - I'm
> interested?
Well, it's nothing really that isn't common sense. If you go to court to
try and get someone who robbed you at knife point (as happened two years
ago to my son) put in jail for their crimes, obviously you are looking to
see something happen to them that you wouldn't wish for a friend or family
member. However, it is in your interest and argueably in the interest of
society as a whole that people who prey upon children receive punishment.
I had no problem with the use of palo to get the results I wanted.
It worked. I haven't lost any sleep over it either.
Nambi munzulu Nzambi muntoto,
Denise Oliver-Velez
Ballard) wrote:
>
>Well, it's nothing really that isn't common sense. If you go to court to
>try and get someone who robbed you at knife point (as happened two years
>ago to my son) put in jail for their crimes, obviously you are looking to
>see something happen to them that you wouldn't wish for a friend or family
>member. However, it is in your interest and argueably in the interest of
>society as a whole that people who prey upon children receive punishment.
>I had no problem with the use of palo to get the results I wanted.
>
>It worked. I haven't lost any sleep over it either.
That doesn't differ from asking an orisha - like Ochosi - to mete out
justice to someone who has harmed you.
I think that many belief systems are similar in that respect , though
I won't generalize and say they all do.
gracias por su ejemplo (grin)
Denise
Amanda Vincent
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote in message
<3830b52f....@news.pipeline.com>...
>On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:01:59 -0600, fi...@bway.net (Orlando Fiol)
>wrote:
>(snip)
>>And African religions do nothing to temporarily drive away the
>>spirits of hte dead? One theory for the useage of bells on the bata is
>>that they are meant to scare away Eggun until the end of the ceremony.
>
>Hmmm...interesting - I thought the bells were to attract orisha to
>come and dance - or for Oshun who is associated with bata.
>Though I can understand the need to shoo away egun when you want
>orisha to come (grin)
Orlando is absolutely correct that they sawaro are there in Cuban bata to
deter the Egun. In Nigeria they say that the bells are derived from rattling
snail shells. I need to check back through my research on this one. Maybe it
has something to do with Obatala.
Ase
Amanda
>
>
>Denise
E. C. Ballard
<tb...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Orlando is absolutely correct that they sawaro are there in Cuban bata to
> deter the Egun. In Nigeria they say that the bells are derived from rattling
> snail shells. I need to check back through my research on this one. Maybe it
> has something to do with Obatala.
I would think it more likely has to do with Chango who is both a lover of
the drums and extremely fearful of the dead.
Mitchell
The Christians that I have largely met are taught, and re-taught
'The Dead bury the Dead', they are taught and re-taught NOT to ask the
Dead for any 'Thing'. If they are individually taught to pray to their
God to elevate and accept their dearly departed spirits of the dead then
that is a important start and step. Walking and Working with the spirits
of the dead however in my opinion is very discouraged by the vast
majority of christian churches which in turn program their followers to
be very much against those practices often refered to in the western
culture as Necromancy.
The present calendar is much changed from the calendar birth and
death of Jesus Christ, The Mass of Christ celebrated as Christmas has by
and large less to do with the Greater Feast of Jesus Christ and alot
more commerically to do with gifting the local city mall with money. The
solar aspects of Christ are again in my opinion unmistakeable and I
would personally place the Mass of Christ at the Summer Solstice (June
21st around St. Johns Day) The pagan holiday however of observing Winter
Solstice far exceeds the earliest time of Christ and has been observed
for certain banishings, family gatherings and rituals for a very long
time, if you were a priest of those traditions I could speak more freely
upon them. The African traditions do use salt, herbs and some minerals
to selectively remove some spirits of the dead either from a person
afflected, their homes, shrine or temple. It is not ring the dinner
bell, come one, come ALL to this plate of food. The African traditions
also selectively use guides, community and family egun to ward against
unwanted spirits of the dead. The bells on the Egun Staff call forth the
various spirits of the Dead, not drive them away. Unfortunately these
teachings and practices are not being taught to every community and
house that follow the African traditions. The stigma of the Dead burying
the Dead is very much alive and thriving in the Western Culture for the
reasons that I have previously stated.
Each and every year many Christian origanzations actively attack
and ridicule the pagan practice of Samhain known to you and others as
Halloween where food is left for wandering familar spirits to treat upon
to offset the chance of being tricked upon. Each and every year local
newspapers are filled the next several days with hate filled letters to
the editors flaming that newspaper for promoting Pagan ideals. Western
culture Orlando has in my opinion a very long ways to go before its
society accepts without bias or indignation those that work, walk and
talk with the spirits of the dead.
The two Buddist Rinpoche's (reincarnated buddist teachers and more)
that live nearby and both their Buddist followers and the Native
American elders here tend to tread lightly upon the land and walk with
their ancestors. The Native American healing lodges and circles follow
several identical restrictions which are found in my Palo and Santos
houses. What those are however I cannot speak of outside of those
temples and lodges. However this thread was upon the Kongo based
religions.
I am glad to have better informed you of my opinion and personal
experiences,
Eoghan
well. It has been practiced by generations of Christians over the last
millenium and then some. Whatever its origins and the Neopagan movements'
efforts at reclamation, it remains a primarily Christian celebration (in
that the majority of people celebrating it consider themselves Christians
- many actively so, and because the celebration is in many parts of the
world, associated directly with the church).
That many right wing "Christian" groups trash it, is more of a statement
about them than about Christianity in general. My point being that a lot
else of what they do would be refuted by Christians and I have seen
Christian clerics speak out against the anti-Hallowee'en activities of
these ultra-conservative xtian groups.
Sala maleko.
Orlando Fiol
> Greetings Orlando,
Greetings, Padre.
> The Christians that I have largely met are taught, and re-taught
> 'The Dead bury the Dead', they are taught and re-taught NOT to ask the
> Dead for any 'Thing'. If they are individually taught to pray to their
> God to elevate and accept their dearly departed spirits of the dead then
> that is a important start and step.
At least in Catholicism, the saints are all believed to be dead and in
Heaven with God. So, when they are asked to intercede on
people's behalf, they are not alive. Furthermore, many Christians
believe that the dead can advocate on their behalf upon arrival in
Heaven.
>Walking and Working with the spirits
> of the dead however in my opinion is very discouraged by the vast
> majority of christian churches which in turn program their followers to
> be very much against those practices often refered to in the western
> culture as Necromancy.
Christians discourage having direct contact with the dead, exuming their
corpses etc. However, they do not discourage a close relationship with
the departed. Many Christian healers are venerated for the ability to
communicate with the dead.
> The present calendar is much changed from the calendar birth and
> death of Jesus Christ, The Mass of Christ celebrated as Christmas has by
> and large less to do with the Greater Feast of Jesus Christ and alot
> more commerically to do with gifting the local city mall with money.
The church fathers intended the feast to have everything to do with
Christ. It is the commercialists who have made into a spending fest.
>The solar aspects of Christ are again in my opinion unmistakeable and I
> would personally place the Mass of Christ at the Summer Solstice (June
> 21st around St. Johns Day) The pagan holiday however of observing Winter
> Solstice far exceeds the earliest time of Christ and has been observed
> for certain banishings, family gatherings and rituals for a very long
> time, if you were a priest of those traditions I could speak more freely
> upon them.
You assume that I do not know what you're talking about, which I do.
>The African traditions do use salt, herbs and some minerals
> to selectively remove some spirits of the dead either from a person
> afflected, their homes, shrine or temple. It is not ring the dinner
> bell, come one, come ALL to this plate of food.
Of course not.
>The African traditions
> also selectively use guides, community and family egun to ward against
> unwanted spirits of the dead. The bells on the Egun Staff call forth the
> various spirits of the Dead, not drive them away. Unfortunately these
> teachings and practices are not being taught to every community and
> house that follow the African traditions.
I have not found many santero households who do not venerate Egun in
significant ways as you describe.
>The stigma of the Dead burying
> the Dead is very much alive and thriving in the Western Culture for the
> reasons that I have previously stated.
I believe that stigma is giving way in many circles: from mystic
Christians to pagans to Sufi Muslims.
> Each and every year many Christian origanzations actively attack
> and ridicule the pagan practice of Samhain known to you and others as
> Halloween where food is left for wandering familar spirits to treat upon
> to offset the chance of being tricked upon.
This is fear and ignorance at work.
>Each and every year local
> newspapers are filled the next several days with hate filled letters to
> the editors flaming that newspaper for promoting Pagan ideals.
Unfortunately, this will always happen. Unfortunately, Chirstians have,
as a dogma in their religion, the belief that other religions to
Christianity must be stamped out. Many liberal Chirstians don't belivee
in or inforce this dogma, but it has never been stricken from the record,
as it were.
>Western culture Orlando has in my opinion a very long ways to go before
its society accepts without bias or indignation those that work, walk and
> talk with the spirits of the dead.
Do you think it is on this path of reconciliation with the dead or on
another path away from the dead?
> The two Buddist Rinpoche's (reincarnated buddist teachers and more)
> that live nearby and both their Buddist followers and the Native
> American elders here tend to tread lightly upon the land and walk with
> their ancestors. The Native American healing lodges and circles follow
> several identical restrictions which are found in my Palo and Santos
> houses. What those are however I cannot speak of outside of those
> temples and lodges.
This is the second time that you bring things up only to say that you
cannot speak further about them. If you cannot disclose full details
that would substantiate your points, why bring them up?
>However this thread was upon the Kongo based
> religions.
And it has transmogrified into something else. Such is life.
> I am glad to have better informed you of my opinion and personal
> experiences,
You have also informed me twice about what you cannot reveal to me, which
is a nuisance.
Orlando
Oloroke
The historical view of Bantu(Congo) groups come to the Americas from Africa
itself, since they were traditional enemies of the Yoruba, who always consider
them "inferior". These views were reinforced in slavery times and in our
century.
<<There has been a lot of use of Palo (and other congo derived groups suchas
Kimbanda) as fall guys at an historic point when followers of Yoruban
religions were trying to improve their image>>
In Brazil when the first non-Brazilian scholars (Bastide and others) start to
study our Afro-religion, they got the information from the yoruba-based
Nations, that only the yorubas had the real "African" legitimacy and purity and
Bantu was already very mixed , since they were the first group that had
arrived.
So at that time they totally ignored the Bantu religion and also the Fon
(jeje) religions in Brazil and gave undue importance just to the Ketu Nation.
This almost was the end of many groups that felt unlegitimate, mixed,
non-african.
These views became popular and is taking much work and study by the Bantu
followers to fight this centuries-old discrimination. Have to give it to some
Brazilian scholars who are trying to redeem their predecessors error and are
bringing these religions to the light.
I don't think Denize these views of Bantu-derived religions happened now.
They show up in all of the Americas , and is a long ingrained feeling.
Axe,
Maria de Oxalá
E. C. Ballard
Your interpretation of what happened in Brazil with scholars such as
Bastide is what I understood to have occured. However, it continues. One
thing that has occurred in the US is that many came and set up houses of
Ocha (Yoruba) and the next generation, not being from Cuba, have no
understanding of Palo. They have heard a few rumors and take bad mouthing
of that traditional sort as true. There are many who have a slightly
fearful approach to the egun, which is of course at the heart of Congo
religion. In Palo we work very closely with los muertos, casi todo el
tiempo. This makes it all the more difficult to for many to get an
understanding of the truth.
Sala maleko,
Madrina7
English. thank you,from OMI OKOKOROBI
E. C. Ballard
madr...@aol.com (Madrina7) wrote:
Alas, As i indicated just the other day, the publisher has delayed this
book for an indefinite period of time.
Eoghan
Tata Enkise 7 Rallos Quimbisa