How long does any type of Root work last?
Savannahsmiles
Savannahsmiles
Cacimar
>
An actual curse should always come back on you in some way...
catherine yronwode
>
> Can a curse come back on you?
You have posed this same query in a number of newsgroups cenetered on
discussions of magic. This newsgroup, however, is about religion, not
curses. Please try to focus your communications where they are on-topic.
Thanks.
cat yronwode
Nightshade & Flat
"Savannahsmiles" <alice.s...@phms.com> wrote in message
news:fb69f6a3.02030...@posting.google.com...
> Can a curse come back on you? Or be reversed?
It is far easier to cast a curse than to reverse it. When you cast a curse
upon someone, you have established a connection between yourself and the
target, and there will always be some "leakage" that spills over onto you.
When casting a curse, it is wise to put a proviso in it for cessation, as in
the target fulfillilng certain conditions. It can also be undone by the
caster in a variety of ways, one of which is taking apart the physical
components (if any -- it's always smart to save the materials such as
candles, etc. used in the process in case removal is desired) and destroying
them. Divine intervention can be requested. One can also attune defenses
and shields to deflect/trap curse effect(s) and send them back to the
caster.
On a side note, I know one person who does a lot of curse magicks, and he
has said that backlash is not unwelcome because it indicates the curse is
working.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Love & Laughter,
Nightshade
Eoghan Ballard
"Cacimar" <cac...@terra.com> wrote:
> > Can a curse come back on you? Or be reversed?
> >
>
> An actual curse should always come back on you in some way...
más mierda de la nueva edad...
Cacimar
"Eoghan Ballard" <ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:eballard-A58959...@netnews.upenn.edu...
I've never been involved in new age and am unaware of it's popular tenets, I
avoid it like a flying skunk - perhaps you can elaborate on what you know of
it.
Specifically on how the idea of "reaping what you sow" is somehow a new
concept.
-
Eoghan Ballard
indeed reap what one sows, but seldom in so straightforward a manner.
The ethics of many magical practices contain a great deal more gray than
they do black and white.
I simply object when people blithly through around essentialist,
judeo-christian and (yes, often New Age) "white-light" notions of right
and wrong. I usually see far too many issues in a given situation to
find simplistic assessments adequate. Sorry, I don't really mean to be
on a high horse about this. It was just a gut reaction. no offense meant.
Eoghan
Josef
<ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>No, but neither is it specifically an Anfrican religious tenet. One does
>indeed reap what one sows, but seldom in so straightforward a manner.
>The ethics of many magical practices contain a great deal more gray than
>they do black and white.
Are you saying that a practice can be neither ethical nor unethical?
That's hard to follow. A grey area in ethics exists when ambiguity and
vagueness exists, and there is room for interpretation. But then
you're back to square one and not actually dealing with "ethics".
Something is either ethical or it is not, the fact that the same act
may be ethical for one person but unethical for another depends on the
degree to which the relevant ethic may be subject to interpretation.
However, this does not take into account people simply being pig
ignorant. What then? Is that the grey area? What to do about that?
Education. Whose education? And so it goes on... not so much a grey
area as a can of worms.
Eoghan Ballard
it's own culture is the only valid point of departure for assessing its
ethic tenets. What is far too common, is the experience of people
judging other cultures based upon their own values. Western European
cultures have a really bad habit of doing this.
We both know that Hobbes finds all sorts of ways for dealing with such
ambiguities without going in circles. As for something either being
"ethical or not", that is a different can of worms. How many definitions
of the word "ethical" can you find. By the way, none of those
definitions tell you what is or is not ethical...
Cacimar
> No, but neither is it specifically an Anfrican religious tenet. One does
> indeed reap what one sows, but seldom in so straightforward a manner.
> The ethics of many magical practices contain a great deal more gray than
> they do black and white.
I agree with what you say here and below - except for it not being an
African tenet.
As you say, there are different standards for ethics for different systems.
The majority of systems tend to have a standard of basic good character or
what is considered abuse. Which is why I referred to an *actual* curse.
What is considered a curse, in my mind, is an effort to do undue harm (harm
defined by whatever system we're talking about). I think, for instance,
there's a difference between asking for justice after someone attacked you
and the police let them go and asking for someone who refused a date from
you to become deathly ill. I'm sure some would call the justice spell a
curse, but I consider a curse to be a negative attack. Negative is
ethically defined within that system. Justice usually isn't considered
negative. And of course, the person receiving the spell would always see it
as unjustified.
So, in African systems, I think there's a difference between a generic spell
and a curse. The departure with Nuevo-Euro systems would be where they tend
to say *any* spell that benefits you directly or harms someone in any way
(perhaps including justice) would come back on you, or variations thereof.
> I simply object when people blithly through around essentialist,
> judeo-christian and (yes, often New Age) "white-light" notions of right
> and wrong. I usually see far too many issues in a given situation to
> find simplistic assessments adequate. Sorry, I don't really mean to be
> on a high horse about this. It was just a gut reaction. no offense meant.
Understood. I supposed I could have extended myself to say:
An actual curse (assuming the definition of curse is a negative spiritual
attack according to the ethical standard of that religious or magickal
system) should always come back on you in some way (no matter how vague or
invisible, perhaps not even until after life and not necessarily visibly
related to this curse.)
But that's so many more letters 8-)
At the very least, like attracts like. If you aren't a well grounded person
and you pursue negative activities then similar spirits will dwell with you.
-
Eoghan Ballard
Again, I wish to emphasize that what I am most objecting to is the
application of non-African values and standards to African traditions.
It is impossible to characterize the vast diversity of African
traditions in a few paragraphs, but we get nowhere near an understanding
when we apply sui-generis western views. These assumptions which are a
part of western and especially American values are, like most else
voiced by Americans, unexamined and assumed to be fact. It is important
to always start by openly questioning what one assumes to be the
foundations of reality before examining the reality of others.
Eoghan
Eoghan Ballard
> On a side note, I know one person who does a lot of curse magicks, and he
> has said that backlash is not unwelcome because it indicates the curse is
> working.
>
> Hope this helps a little bit.
>
> Love & Laughter,
> Nightshade
Well, if you are working with a system that is effective, backlashes
are only what you use eyeliner for.
Eoghan
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> The ethics of many magical practices contain a great deal more gray than
> they do black and white.
I think that's right. For example, Vodou-related magic can have an
objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
back on them".
> I simply object when people blithly through around essentialist,
> judeo-christian and (yes, often New Age) "white-light" notions of right
> and wrong. I usually see far too many issues in a given situation to
> find simplistic assessments adequate. Sorry, I don't really mean to be
> on a high horse about this. It was just a gut reaction. no offense meant.
I think that's right too!
The example I often give is of a person who comes to a Mambo wanting a
job. Okay, let's say I do magic to help this person find employment,
I feed his ancestors and his met tet and Ogoun perhaps, and I work to
make him find favor in the eyes of potential employers. If I am like
most Mambos, especially if the person has a particular job in mind, I
will also work to thwart his competitors, make them fail to gain the
job. Now, the man gets the job and his competitor does not. Did I do
good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index1.html
(Posting from Jacmel, Haiti)
Tom
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fc61f8b9.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
> I think that's right. For example, Vodou-related magic can have an
> objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
> naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
> his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
> commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
> back on them".
Yet, by steeping themselves in that sort of vindictive, spiteful, and
murderous thinking and behavior, they fix themselves in a matrix of hatred
and isolation. Everybody knows that anybody could become the next "naughty
guy" for any reason whatsoever. Tomorrow it could be you.
The only people who would willingly hang out with a person that dangerous
is another person who was that dangerous. This results in an increased
likelihood that they will both end up killing each other.
Is it any wonder that the ranks of Vodou practitioners are never very
large?
> The example I often give is of a person who comes to a Mambo wanting a
> job. Okay, let's say I do magic to help this person find employment,
> I feed his ancestors and his met tet and Ogoun perhaps, and I work to
> make him find favor in the eyes of potential employers. If I am like
> most Mambos, especially if the person has a particular job in mind, I
> will also work to thwart his competitors, make them fail to gain the
> job. Now, the man gets the job and his competitor does not. Did I do
> good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
Would it be wrong to go out and shoot the other job seekers, just to get
them out of the way? How about intimidating the employer into hiring the
person by threatening to kill his family, leaving his dog dead on the front
steps as a warning that you're serious? Hey, you got your guy the job!
Wasn't that a good thing?
Josef
Bout) wrote:
>Eoghan Ballard <ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message news:<eballard-7049BE...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>
>
>> The ethics of many magical practices contain a great deal more gray than
>> they do black and white.
>
>I think that's right. For example, Vodou-related magic can have an
>objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
>naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
>his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
>commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
>back on them".
Do you think that is particularly intelligent of them? Do they still
believe the same way when, after a man's livestock has been poisoned
by an accidental spillage of toxic material into the stream running
through his land--after their enemy commissioned such "magick"--their
own home accidentally burns down and their children are engulfed in
the flames? Or do they rarely connect the two incidents?
>
>> I simply object when people blithly through around essentialist,
>> judeo-christian and (yes, often New Age) "white-light" notions of right
>> and wrong. I usually see far too many issues in a given situation to
>> find simplistic assessments adequate. Sorry, I don't really mean to be
>> on a high horse about this. It was just a gut reaction. no offense meant.
>
>I think that's right too!
>
>The example I often give is of a person who comes to a Mambo wanting a
>job. Okay, let's say I do magic to help this person find employment,
>I feed his ancestors and his met tet and Ogoun perhaps, and I work to
>make him find favor in the eyes of potential employers. If I am like
>most Mambos, especially if the person has a particular job in mind, I
>will also work to thwart his competitors, make them fail to gain the
>job. Now, the man gets the job and his competitor does not. Did I do
>good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
You sound like a rare Mambo to be considering such things. Good luck
to you.
nguyen
> Did I do
> good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
you certainly benefited him and harmed his competitor's prospects if
you suceeded. If you succeeded you also interfered with a competition
of merit by influencing perceptions unduly.
What you did could be considered unethical or unfair even without any
thought of good or evil.
nguyen
Eoghan Ballard
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Is it any wonder that the ranks of Vodou practitioners are never very
> large?
Actually, apart from the fact that not all do what Racine suggests,
Vodou is a world religion with quite a large following.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> "Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:fc61f8b9.02031...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > I think that's right. For example, Vodou-related magic can have an
> > objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
> > naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
> > his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
> > commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
> > back on them".
>
> Yet, by steeping themselves in that sort of vindictive, spiteful, and
> murderous thinking and behavior, they fix themselves in a matrix of hatred
> and isolation.
Sooo... you've spent a lot of time in Haiti? You have lived in
communities there, and thus you know that most Vodouisants are "fixed
in a matrix of hatred and isolation"?
I suppose at worst, if everyone was living this way... and of course
we can observe threads of this in other tradiitons, too, Santeria,
Palo... Santeros in my experience are quicker than other people to
believe that so and so is "throwning brujeria at me".
But in practice, at least in Haiti, things don't usually degenerate to
that point. And again, people who commission malevolent magic against
an enemy do not believe that it will come back on them, they believe
that they are using a spiritual weapon to fight an enemy who wants to
hurt them too. If their "pwen" is stronger, they will not be harmed.
That is how most Vodouisants in Haiti view this issue, frankly.
> The only people who would willingly hang out with a person that dangerous
> is another person who was that dangerous. This results in an increased
> likelihood that they will both end up killing each other.
Oh, I think that is even more negativistic a view than the one you
decry.
> Is it any wonder that the ranks of Vodou practitioners are never very
> large?
WHOA! Who told you that? Vodou is the *majority* religion of Haiti,
there are millions of Vodouisants in Haiti. Vodou is a tradition
which gives life, not one which leads people to kill each other off.
(I wrote:)
> > The example I often give is of a person who comes to a Mambo wanting a
> > job. Okay, let's say I do magic to help this person find employment,
> > I feed his ancestors and his met tet and Ogoun perhaps, and I work to
> > make him find favor in the eyes of potential employers. If I am like
> > most Mambos, especially if the person has a particular job in mind, I
> > will also work to thwart his competitors, make them fail to gain the
> > job. Now, the man gets the job and his competitor does not. Did I do
> > good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
> Would it be wrong to go out and shoot the other job seekers, just to get
> them out of the way?
Tom writes:
> How about intimidating the employer into hiring the
> person by threatening to kill his family, leaving his dog dead on the front
> steps as a warning that you're serious? Hey, you got your guy the job!
> Wasn't that a good thing?
The acts you have described above are crimes, not magical
interventions. I want you to read me more carefully. I wrote, "If I
am like most Mambos, I will..." do this and that, etc. I have not
suggested it is acceptable to commit crimes! It is alright, in the
view of Vodouisants, to work to bar the door to the supervisor's
office to other candidates for the position, and open the door for the
candidate who is the client of the Mambo.
A specialist in malevolent magic is not a Houngan or Mambo, usually.
That person is usually not initiated, and they are often referred to
as "bokor". That is the person you go to if you specifically want to
hurt someone, you don't go to a Houngan or Mambo for that.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
(Posting from Jacmel, Haiti)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> Actually, apart from the fact that not all do what Racine suggests
Please, folks, read what I write - I have not suggested that anyone do
anything, I have described the behavior and outlook of the vast
majority of Haitian Vodouisants.
> Vodou is a world religion with quite a large following.
HOORAY! Why does Tom believe we are few in number, anyhow?
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
(Posting from Jacmel, Haiti)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> >objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
> >naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
> >his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
> >commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
> >back on them".
>
> Do you think that is particularly intelligent of them?
Sure, why not? Christians believe that evil will come back on them,
Wiccans have the "three-fold law", and so on, but empirical
observation will teach you that every playground bully that gives some
little kid a black eye does not get three black eyes in return. Each
belief has adherents and each can cite reasons and give anecdotes for
believing as they do. Haitian Vodouisants are not stupid, they know
why they believe what they do also.
> Do they still
> believe the same way when, after a man's livestock has been poisoned
> by an accidental spillage of toxic material into the stream running
> through his land--after their enemy commissioned such "magick"--their
> own home accidentally burns down and their children are engulfed in
> the flames? Or do they rarely connect the two incidents?
Do you mean to suggest that the events are connected, or not? I mean,
are you suggesting that the house burned down by itself or that
someone started the fire? I am sorry, I don't understand what you are
saying, excuse me.
> >Did I do
> >good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
>
> You sound like a rare Mambo to be considering such things. Good luck
> to you.
:-)
Thanks. I don't know if I am a *rare* Mambo, but I am an
international Mambo with a background in Christianity so naturally, I
sort of compare and contrast the two cultures and form questions, you
see?
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
(Posting from Jacmel, Haiti)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
To YOU! The vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants would disagree. I
mean, if you are going to do magic to help one competitor, then if you
were going to be "fair" you would have to do the exact same magic to
help every other competitor, right?
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
(Posting from Jacmel, Haiti)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> It is far easier to cast a curse than to reverse it.
Oh no it's not! ::Giggle:: At least, maybe I just have a talent for
taking off malevolent magic or something, but I find it pretty easy to
break "curses" and hexes and stuff like that. I use a certain type of
bath, and I invoke the ancestors, and I do a few little things that
Mambos know, and POOF! No more curse, no more spirit banging around
in your house at night, no more bad luck or funny bruises in odd
places or horrible accidents, nothing.
The thing is, the person who sent it in the first place could always
send it again. That is why people either get a garde or become kanzo.
For more information on gardes, see;
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/gad.html
And for more information on the kanzo, see The VODOU page, there is a
whole section on the kanzo ceremony.
Josef
Bout) wrote:
I think that was my point, that essentially an act of magick to cause
harm to someone else could quite easily find retaliation in a
perfectly straightforward act of arson, *or* that the house burnt down
by "accident", *or* that it was a backlash against the original act
"by magick". What I am saying it that it is just as much a mere belief
to believe that an essentially evil act will not attract evil
consequences for yourself as perpetrator, and that the fact it was
done behind the veil of secrecy "via magick" is no guarantee against
personal repercussions. That simply underlines the cowardice of the
commissioned violence against another.
In fact, in my opinion such a skulking approach to attempt to have
power over others simply makes those repercussions more "fateful",
since Nemesis generally desires to teach the perpetrator of a heinous
act a lesson they will not forget easily, the perpetrator being both
the bokor and the commissioner of the act. Nemesis can wait years
before striking. Nothing to do with the threefold law of return, which
is merely girly wiccan dogma for those dense enough to need such a
stupid rule, who have yet to discover for themselves the benefits of
being a decent human being without needing to be held in check by fear
of evil returning to them.
Some people believe evil rebounds, others think it is karma free.
*Both* are mere beliefs. Personally, in my own life I choose to behave
decently towards other people not because I fear the consequences if I
don't but because I think it is a better way to live. Although I also
realise that every act has a consequence, and that consequence mirrors
the act. It always amazes me that other people don't see the
advantages of behaving like a decent person.
If you want to cause a woman's baby to wither in the womb, one of your
cited examples of a typical act of Haitian sorcery, then there is
little difference between employing a bokor to cast a curse and hiring
a thug to thump her in the stomach and run away. I trust I make myself
clear. I know some people here have problems with this concept.
>
>
>> >Did I do
>> >good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
>>
>> You sound like a rare Mambo to be considering such things. Good luck
>> to you.
>
>:-)
>
>Thanks. I don't know if I am a *rare* Mambo, but I am an
>international Mambo with a background in Christianity so naturally, I
>sort of compare and contrast the two cultures and form questions, you
>see?
I don't see Christianity as any yardstick of all that is decent. A
grounding in ethics would be more useful.
Josef
Bout) wrote:
>"Nightshade & Flat" <and.e...@eatel.net> wrote in message news:<zNti8.162108$pN4.8...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
>
>> It is far easier to cast a curse than to reverse it.
>
>Oh no it's not! ::Giggle:: At least, maybe I just have a talent for
>taking off malevolent magic or something, but I find it pretty easy to
>break "curses" and hexes and stuff like that.
How much would you charge, for example, to break Catherine and
Nagasiva's Yronwode's curse on Joel Biroco, or would you consider such
intervention in another Mambo's sorcery unethical?
And what if you intervened in a curse case like that, but Biroco had
already reversed the curse, would you know? Or would you be involving
yourself then in *his* sorcery?
It's a tricky old business the curse-breaking business. So many things
to take into consideration. And what if you try to lift a curse but
the original curser is stronger than you, won't that mean that you
become cursed yourself? It's a dangerous business this hex-busting
business. Do you have to wear special suits?
>I use a certain type of
>bath, and I invoke the ancestors, and I do a few little things that
>Mambos know, and POOF! No more curse, no more spirit banging around
>in your house at night, no more bad luck or funny bruises in odd
>places or horrible accidents, nothing.
>
>The thing is, the person who sent it in the first place could always
>send it again.
But don't you manage to kill them then? Don't people feel cheated
though if there isn't a death? Sounds like a lucrative business the
curse and counter-curse business.
Tom
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fc61f8b9.02031...@posting.google.com...
> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<sd8k8.83$jt4.1...@news.uswest.net>...
> > "Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:fc61f8b9.02031...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > I think that's right. For example, Vodou-related magic can have an
> > > objective that we would consider "malevolent", you know, make that
> > > naughty guy suffer, make him get sick, make his livestock die, make
> > > his next child stillborn, all kinds of stuff! And the people
> > > commissioning such magic do not as a rule believe that it will "come
> > > back on them".
> >
> > Yet, by steeping themselves in that sort of vindictive, spiteful, and
> > murderous thinking and behavior, they fix themselves in a matrix of
hatred
> > and isolation.
>
> Sooo... you've spent a lot of time in Haiti?
As little as possible. Aren't they the folks with the succession of
murderous dictators and thugs running the country? Aren't they the
poorest, most desperate, and most isolated of all Caribbean islands?
> You have lived in communities there, and thus you know that
> most Vodouisants are "fixed in a matrix of hatred and isolation"?
People who wish stillborn infants on their enemies are murderous and
hateful. People who feel proud of that sort of activity are fixed in a
matrix of isolation and hatred. It doesn't matter if there's a cultural
basis for it or not.
> I suppose at worst, if everyone was living this way... and of course
> we can observe threads of this in other tradiitons, too, Santeria,
> Palo... Santeros in my experience are quicker than other people to
> believe that so and so is "throwning brujeria at me".
I don't care which label you choose for it or which group you think is
worse than which other group. Any group that sanctions murder, vandalism,
and mayhem as justified means for an individual to get his or her way is
mired in slime.
> But in practice, at least in Haiti, things don't usually degenerate to
> that point. And again, people who commission malevolent magic against
> an enemy do not believe that it will come back on them, they believe
> that they are using a spiritual weapon to fight an enemy who wants to
> hurt them too. If their "pwen" is stronger, they will not be harmed.
> That is how most Vodouisants in Haiti view this issue, frankly.
And If I'm faster with a gun, does that mean it's OK for me to kill you?
If I'm bigger and stronger, does that mean I get to prey on the weak with a
clear conscience?
> > The only people who would willingly hang out with a person
> > that dangerous is another person who was that dangerous.
> > This results in an increased likelihood that they will both end
> > up killing each other.
>
> Oh, I think that is even more negativistic a view than the one you
> decry.
Is it? In what way?
> > Is it any wonder that the ranks of Vodou practitioners are never very
> > large?
>
> WHOA! Who told you that? Vodou is the *majority* religion of Haiti,
> there are millions of Vodouisants in Haiti.
On a global scale, you're a mere handful. And you'll never be more than a
mere handful.
> Vodou is a tradition
> which gives life, not one which leads people to kill each other off.
The recent history of Haiti indicates otherwise.
http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/americas/haiti.html
http://infomanage.com/caribbean/haiti/violence.html
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/haiti/haiti-vigilantes.htm
http://www.haiti-info.com/Htlm/news1201/ap19.htm
> > > If I am like
> > > most Mambos, especially if the person has a particular
> > > job in mind, I will also work to thwart his competitors,
> > > make them fail to gain the job. Now, the man gets the
> > > job and his competitor does not. Did I do
> > > good to the man, or evil to the competitor?
>
> > Would it be wrong to go out and shoot the other job seekers, just to
get
> > them out of the way?
>
> Tom writes:
>
> > How about intimidating the employer into hiring the
> > person by threatening to kill his family, leaving his dog dead on the
front
> > steps as a warning that you're serious? Hey, you got your guy the
job!
> > Wasn't that a good thing?
>
> The acts you have described above are crimes, not magical
> interventions.
So if you kill somebody by magick, it isn't really a crime? Is that what
you're saying? Or are you saying that murder by magick can't be proved, so
therefore no "crime" took place?
If someone deliberately sabotages someone's attempt to get a job and I can
prove it, it's actionable under law.
It's not a fair or legal tactic to win a race by drugging your competitors.
> I want you to read me more carefully. I wrote, "If I
> am like most Mambos, I will..." do this and that, etc. I have not
> suggested it is acceptable to commit crimes!
I think you've done just that.
> It is alright, in the view of Vodouisants, to work to bar the door
> to the supervisor's office to other candidates for the position,
> and open the door for the candidate who is the client of the Mambo.
As I say, it's not alright to drug your competition.
> A specialist in malevolent magic is not a Houngan or Mambo, usually.
> That person is usually not initiated, and they are often referred to
> as "bokor". That is the person you go to if you specifically want to
> hurt someone, you don't go to a Houngan or Mambo for that.
And if you're not a vodouist, you go to a hitman. The difference is
minimal.
Mike R.
wrote on 3/16/02 12:42 PM:
> Nothing to do with the threefold law of return, which
> is merely girly wiccan dogma for those dense enough to need such a
> stupid rule,
actually, the "classical" explanation of the threefold rule in Wicca is that
our actions have consequences beyond the physical, in the realms of mind and
spirit as well, in recognition of a threefold nature of reality, and that a
wise person considers these realms, not just the manifest material world in
contemplating an activity. it is not a reward and punishment based idea,
that is a corruption.
regards
mike
Mike R.
wrote on 3/16/02 12:42 PM:
> And what if you intervened in a curse case like that, but Biroco had
> already reversed the curse, would you know? Or would you be involving
> yourself then in *his* sorcery?
one word: divination.
> It's a tricky old business the curse-breaking business. So many things
> to take into consideration. And what if you try to lift a curse but
> the original curser is stronger than you, won't that mean that you
> become cursed yourself?
not a matter of personal strength, but with the nature of working with
spirit and pwen. and God is more powerful than either btw.
and regardless of one's circumstances, no curse can shake a person dwelling
in love and faith living in the conviction of simplicity. one person may
inflict pain, but the other need not suffer if they choose otherwise. pain
is a circumstance, suffering is a state of mind. so lets all choose love and
simplicity.
regards
mike
Josef
"threefold nature of reality": dogma.
There is nothing classical there. Unless you want to cite a source for
this belief in classical literature. I presume the inverted commas of
"classical" are intended to convey a belief emanating from behind the
Veil of Isis? I have always regarded that kind of thing as simply a
higher form of bullshit.
>
>regards
>
>mike
Omo Oshun
Lee Thompson-Herbert
She didn't. Tom and Josef are refugees from alt.magick, and not particularly
well-educated about african-descended traditions to boot. Ignore them and
they might go away.
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert l...@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
Mike R.
wrote on 3/16/02 8:07 PM:
> "threefold nature of reality": dogma.
i said "A" threefold nature of reality.. not THE 3fold nature of reality.
one persons dogma is another person's useful rule of thumb. relax.
> There is nothing classical there. Unless you want to cite a source for
> this belief in classical literature.
by classical, im not referring to Greco-Roman culture dude.. i'm referring
to "classical" in the sense of what elders of BTW trads teach their actual
students and not what pop-pagan subculture has promulgated among the
neo-pagan masses who have only read Llewellyn books. If you want a
reference, cf the Farrar's "A Witches Bible".
> I presume the inverted commas of
> "classical" are intended to convey a belief emanating from behind the
> Veil of Isis? I have always regarded that kind of thing as simply a
> higher form of bullshit.
your presumptions are inaccurate.. and man dude, do you have an attitude
problem or what? i didnt attack you, so whats your problem? why the flame?
peace be upon you.
mike
Joel Biroco
>in article v9t79ukm2r3sbtjn2...@4ax.com, Josef at a...@z.com
>wrote on 3/16/02 8:07 PM:
>
>> "threefold nature of reality": dogma.
>
>i said "A" threefold nature of reality.. not THE 3fold nature of reality.
>one persons dogma is another person's useful rule of thumb. relax.
>
It's still dogma. A or The, doesn't change a thing.
>> There is nothing classical there. Unless you want to cite a source for
>> this belief in classical literature.
>
>by classical, im not referring to Greco-Roman culture dude..
That was clear.
>i'm referring
>to "classical" in the sense of what elders of BTW trads teach their actual
>students and not what pop-pagan subculture has promulgated among the
>neo-pagan masses who have only read Llewellyn books.
There's a difference?
>If you want a
>reference, cf the Farrar's "A Witches Bible".
>
A reference is not needed to back up a wooly idea.
>> I presume the inverted commas of
>> "classical" are intended to convey a belief emanating from behind the
>> Veil of Isis? I have always regarded that kind of thing as simply a
>> higher form of bullshit.
>
>your presumptions are inaccurate.. and man dude, do you have an attitude
>problem or what? i didnt attack you, so whats your problem? why the flame?
This is not about "flame", but opinion. It's not about "attack", but
opinion. "Attitude problem", is that what someone has when they think
differently to other people? Like Winston Smith in 1984?
It is often pointless attempting to discuss other people's treasured
doctrines, freedom of thought to them is like going out into the big
wide world after years of institutionalization.
>
>peace be upon you.
And you.
>
>mike
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> On 16 Mar 2002 09:13:23 -0800, raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans
> Bout) wrote:
>
> >"Nightshade & Flat" <and.e...@eatel.net> wrote in message news:<zNti8.162108$pN4.8...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
> >
> >> It is far easier to cast a curse than to reverse it.
> >
> >Oh no it's not! ::Giggle:: At least, maybe I just have a talent for
> >taking off malevolent magic or something, but I find it pretty easy to
> >break "curses" and hexes and stuff like that.
>
> How much would you charge, for example, to break Catherine and
> Nagasiva's Yronwode's curse on Joel Biroco, or would you consider such
> intervention in another Mambo's sorcery unethical?
They've cursed Joel Biroco? Why? Who is Joel Biroco anyhow?
If Joel came to me, I would probably charge him $101 for the work.
But, I mean, I like Cat, I wouldn't send it back on her. I might even
ask her what was up before I took the case. But if I decided to do
the work, it's not unethical.
> And what if you intervened in a curse case like that, but Biroco had
> already reversed the curse, would you know? Or would you be involving
> yourself then in *his* sorcery?
I would do a reading first, and that way I would know.
> It's a tricky old business the curse-breaking business. So many things
> to take into consideration. And what if you try to lift a curse but
> the original curser is stronger than you, won't that mean that you
> become cursed yourself?
No - it's like fixing someone's car, if you can't fix it you can't fix
it, but that doesn't mean your car will blow a gasket.
> But don't you manage to kill them then? Don't people feel cheated
> though if there isn't a death? Sounds like a lucrative business the
> curse and counter-curse business.
Oh goodness, no! I don't kill people or even do really bad things to
them. If someone is bothering you I make them go away, that's all.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian proverb
Fu Man Chu
Bout) wrote:
>Josef <a...@z.com> wrote in message news:<hq379usnsaclie665...@4ax.com>...
>> On 16 Mar 2002 09:13:23 -0800, raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans
>> Bout) wrote:
>>
>> >"Nightshade & Flat" <and.e...@eatel.net> wrote in message news:<zNti8.162108$pN4.8...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
>> >
>> >> It is far easier to cast a curse than to reverse it.
>> >
>> >Oh no it's not! ::Giggle:: At least, maybe I just have a talent for
>> >taking off malevolent magic or something, but I find it pretty easy to
>> >break "curses" and hexes and stuff like that.
>>
>> How much would you charge, for example, to break Catherine and
>> Nagasiva's Yronwode's curse on Joel Biroco, or would you consider such
>> intervention in another Mambo's sorcery unethical?
>
>They've cursed Joel Biroco? Why? Who is Joel Biroco anyhow?
I believe he eez Chinese Mao Shan sorceror. He teach in ze Vest. Ze
Vronwodes are zee powerful sorceror's in zer own right, but if zay try
to curse "Ma Xia", as he ezz known in zee Chinese Triads of Hong Kong,
zen zay may be dead already.
>
>If Joel came to me, I would probably charge him $101 for the work.
>But, I mean, I like Cat, I wouldn't send it back on her. I might even
>ask her what was up before I took the case. But if I decided to do
>the work, it's not unethical.
He not need your help Mambo Racine, he is ze most evil man in ze
Vorld.
nguyen
> > What you did could be considered unethical or unfair even without any
> > thought of good or evil.
>
> To YOU! The vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants would disagree. I
> mean, if you are going to do magic to help one competitor, then if you
> were going to be "fair" you would have to do the exact same magic to
> help every other competitor, right?
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
<chuckle>
You've got it all wrong. I regularly use my powers to assist those who
serve my purposes or me in financial situations. Once I used them to
move an entire company branch halfway across the nation to a low
employment zone, and then used them to get jobs for them in the
company.
However, anyone who works for me I make damn sure they deserve the job
before they get it. It's a question of merit whether one should help
someone get an opportunity for which they are well qualified for.
nguyen
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> I regularly use my powers to assist those who
> serve my purposes or me in financial situations. Once I used them to
> move an entire company branch halfway across the nation to a low
> employment zone, and then used them to get jobs for them in the
> company.
>
> However, anyone who works for me I make damn sure they deserve the job
> before they get it. It's a question of merit whether one should help
> someone get an opportunity for which they are well qualified for.
You're talking about working for you in an office or as a regular
employee in some fashion, right?
Now, when YOU work for a client, do you decide if they "deserve" to
have their company branch moved? How would you know, for instance, if
the man who wants his wife brought back to him, "deserves" his wife?
Maybe he was beating her up!
I mean, if I know someone is out to hurt someone else, an innocent
person, I turn that client down. That's not a Mambo's work anyhow,
you go to the bokor for that.
But how do you handle it?
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian proverb
Mike R.
bir...@nospamhotmail.com wrote on 3/17/02 11:30 AM:
> It is often pointless attempting to discuss other people's treasured
> doctrines, freedom of thought to them is like going out into the big
> wide world after years of institutionalization.
it is often pointless attempting to discuss anything at all with a guy with
such a pompous attitude as yours, who presumes so much and thinks he knows
everything about someone based on one post. the "Threefold Law" is not my
"treasured doctrine" since i am not a Wiccan. so you can give your cries of
"dogma!" and other insinuations a rest. so much for that smug
self-satisfaction.
finis.
mike
Joel Biroco
It's telling that you thought I was addressing you, as opposed to
speaking generally.
catherine yronwode
>
> How much would you charge, for example, to break Catherine and
> Nagasiva's Yronwode's curse on Joel Biroco, or would you consider
> such intervention in another Mambo's sorcery unethical?
The existence of such a curse lives only in your mind, where it keeps
bumping into and riccocheting off your manipulation of multiple
real-life and usenet identities (including Steve Marshall / Joel Biroco
/ Josef), your belief that you have been magically attacked by complete
strangers who you claim have sent you nightmares and gotten you fired
from your putative job at The Lancet, your belief that i am a "Mambo"
and that my husband is a "sorceror," and your attempts to entangle
usenet by-passers in your personal psychodrama of curse-workings.
Just stop, will you?
cat (and no, of course i am not a Mambo) yronwode
catherine yronwode
>
> My only question in all of this business is when did Cat Yronwode
> become a mambo?
cat (never been to Haiti, but i've been to Oklahoma) yronwode
catherine yronwode
>
Josef wrote:
> > How much would you charge, for example, to break Catherine and
> > Nagasiva's Yronwode's curse on Joel Biroco, or would you consider
> > such intervention in another Mambo's sorcery unethical?
>
> They've cursed Joel Biroco? Why? Who is Joel Biroco anyhow?
Joel Biroco is the alt.magick equivalent of Omijuba -- a chimera.
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Eoghan
more murderous thugs in the White House than have governed a dozen
modern Caribbean nations.
Eoghan
Eoghan
readers on filter.
Eoghan
Tom
"Eoghan" <ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:eballard-44AC1C...@netnews.upenn.edu...
"Voodoo economics"?
Joel Biroco
****************************************************
This matter may be placed in the hands of a UK solicitor specialising
in International Defamation and Libel Law. No further comment to be
made at this time. Those contributing to this thread are forewarned to
bear in mind that their comments on Usenet can be considered
actionable, and that their ISPs may be informed that actionable
statements have been made through their gateway.
****************************************************
Kevin Filan
"Joel Biroco" <bir...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:is0e9uo2qr19ovk9v...@4ax.com...
Shut up, Spankard. Nobody gave you permission to speak.
Peace
Kevin "Banish This, Why Don't You?" Filan
--
You are a wasted life, Filan. True to tell. Go have a fucking drink. You
post ideas that could bring peace to this STUPID newsgroup, your "home turf"
instead of to the right people. YOU should have been hit bu that WTC
falling down then.
- the warmth and wisdom of Tani Jantsang
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> The existence of such a curse lives only in your mind, where it keeps
> bumping into and riccocheting off your manipulation of multiple
> real-life and usenet identities (including Steve Marshall / Joel Biroco
> / Josef), your belief that you have been magically attacked by complete
> strangers who you claim have sent you nightmares and gotten you fired
> from your putative job at The Lancet, your belief that i am a "Mambo"
> and that my husband is a "sorceror," and your attempts to entangle
> usenet by-passers in your personal psychodrama of curse-workings.
>
> Just stop, will you?
>
> cat (and no, of course i am not a Mambo) yronwode
LOL! Poor Cat! Maybe you and I should get together and do an
anti-delusional wanga for the guy.
:-)
Love,
Mambo Racine
Eoghan
Eoghan
Joel Biroco
Bout) wrote:
****************************************************
nguyen
>
> You're talking about working for you in an office or as a regular
> employee in some fashion, right?
>
While I have weilded visible and worldly power of that magnitude, in
this case it was accomplished by invisible and other worldly powers.
> Now, when YOU work for a client, do you decide if they "deserve" to
> have their company branch moved?
Yes, even if it costs me business in this world or the other. It
doesn't seem to have been a problem however long term. Many
wise-persons throughout the world take into account community concerns
and larger social issues even when doing work for individual clients.
> How would you know, for instance, if
> the man who wants his wife brought back to him, "deserves" his wife?
Because one who weilds the invisible powers ought to have enough
perception of mind in order to see through a man and see if he is
sincere.
> Maybe he was beating her up!
>
When I get involved in a domestic case, it's a full service issue. I
don't just help him get his wife back - I address the underlying
problem. I help him learn how to deal with his anger issues, his
habits, his unemployment, whatever is leading him to take it out on
his wife. I help him become a better man.
And if after helping him do all of that, if I find out that he has
shown ingratitude for my help by beating his wife again- and it is
very hard to hide certain things from a person of power - then I make
sure he doesn't beat his wife again.
> I mean, if I know someone is out to hurt someone else, an innocent
> person, I turn that client down. That's not a Mambo's work anyhow,
> you go to the bokor for that.
>
> But how do you handle it?
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
Recently I had to sit in judgement of a case. In the end, I sanctioned
a follower of mine to have the spirits take a man from this world
before his time would have otherwise come.
I did this because the law had turned a blind eye to the man for
years. It was his legal right to poison the mind of his young son
because of custody. The young son had a new home with his mother a
good man, but the other father was a bad influence.
I did not care that the man was bad, or was a drug user, violent,
criminal, etc. I did care that he was teaching his son bad ways.
I judged that the situation, which they had tried to make work for
years using all reasonable methods had gotten nowhere. To save the
young son and give him a chance at a life, the father had to pass from
this life and quickly.
So I ordered my former student to use the invisible powers to arrange
so that he might pass from this world. The responsibility was mine.
With power comes hard choices in this world or the other one, but what
I did I did for the greater good - pro bono publico - and as a last
resort to save a young life and future in direct peril.
You cannot confuse the issue by bringing up morally ambigious cases,
Rancine, and playing a game of "who can tell what is good and bad".
People of power have been dealing with these situations for a long
time.
While I do not always show my power, but those who know it personally
show great respect for it. They respect it because people can tell
when you mean to do good. They can tell if you do it because you are
greedy. They can also tell when you are working for the good of others
when they see it for themselves.
Who judges? The sorcerer, wizard, magician who uses their power. They
must judge. They must search their heart and do what is necessary.
They must always question themselves and never think that they have
the right to do what they want or wish personally. They only have the
right to do what is necessary. No more.
That is why people follow me. I do not bind them. I do not ask them. I
only act for the greater good. They know it, and they choose to listen
to what I have to say.
That is why even though I weild the invisible powers for life and
death, they trust me.
Do not try to confuse the issue, what is in your heart - that decides
the good or evil.
nguyen
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>.. one who weilds the invisible powers ought to have enough
> perception of mind in order to see through a man and see if he is
> sincere.
> a follower of mine to have the spirits take a man from this world
> before his time would have otherwise come.
OH! Excuse me, I didn't realize I was talking to God.
> I ordered my former student to use the invisible powers to arrange
> so that he might pass from this world.
Teee hee! Uhhhh... okay.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Lisa Gardner
Nguyen, you do worry me at times. I do believe that you are powerful-
I hope you use that power in a modest way that is alignment with
what I would call god's will.
I feel that you are basically a good person... but the power you have
does worry me though. I don't want to see you misuse it and I do
hope that you are *very* careful about this, friend. And I do consider
you a friend.
Lisa
Gnome d Plume
Bout) wrote:
******Ask Joel about the Chinese sage who had his psychic powers
tested by his enemies in a most interesting and savory way.....*****
GdP
Joel Biroco
wrote:
I'm not sure I know which one you're referring to, but I can say that
the truly powerful Chinese sage exploits hidden dangers his enemies do
not see. Ko Hung, for instance, likened those who did not appreciate
such hidden dangers to "a man climbing up a rotten rope to steal
eagle's eggs". Something to ponder.
(And no, I don't accept that Crowley was the reincarnation of Ko Hung
before anyone asks or thinks I may be referring to him, I'm referring
to the real Ko Hung.)
And then there is Chonggui the demon catcher (incidentally, "gui" is
ghost/demon/spirit and "Mogui" in the film Gremlins is actually the
name of a real Chinese demon).
>
>GdP
Renfield
>
> Nguyen, you do worry me at times. I do believe that you are powerful-
> I hope you use that power in a modest way that is alignment with
> what I would call god's will.
>
> I feel that you are basically a good person... but the power you have
> does worry me though. I don't want to see you misuse it and I do
> hope that you are *very* careful about this, friend. And I do consider
> you a friend.
NO! Don't listen to her! Misuse your power and become the Dark
Emperor of the Qipploth! Destroy this petty world and bring a new era
of decadence and fire!
-Geist
Lisa Gardner
you sure seem sure of yourself.
Lisa
Renfield
Once he sees the power of this FULLY ARMED AND OPERATIONAL battle
station, he'll turn to the Dark Side quick enough.
-Geist
nguyen
>
> OH! Excuse me, I didn't realize I was talking to God.
>
<snort>
Don't talk silliness Racine. I have met many individuals of greater
power and experience than myself in this respect. My abilities are
quite modest. The only advantages I have are that people consistently
underestimate me and that backed into a corner I become absolutely
ruthless.
Among these kinds of men, and the overwhelming majority are men for
some reason, I am considered quite foolish and silly for bothering to
talk with people like you.
> > I ordered my former student to use the invisible powers to arrange
> > so that he might pass from this world.
>
> Teee hee! Uhhhh... okay.
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
<shrug> Anyone who makes it through the training process has to know
and demonstrate their ability to defend themselves through unseen
powers. It is the sine non qua standard.
nguyen
nguyen
> > Do not try to confuse the issue, what is in your heart - that decides
> > the good or evil.
>
> Nguyen, you do worry me at times. I do believe that you are powerful-
> I hope you use that power in a modest way that is alignment with
> what I would call god's will.
>
'I believe in the sun when I can not see it. I believe in love when I
cannot feel it. I believe in God even when s/he is silent.' - a
paraphrase of a quote attributed to a scrawl in a bomb shelter in
Cologne.
<chuckle> Bruce Barhans wrote that most over-muscled body builders are
98lb weaklings in their own mind. I can sympathize with that.
When I was growing up I seemed utterly alone, ignorant, vulnerable,
and weak in an extremely callous and hostile world. So I spent years
on a quest to become knowledge, skilled, and as dangerous as I could
possibly become.
One day, I woke up and realized I had far surpassed every standard I
had set and that I wasn't weak and didn't need to act weak anymore.
> I feel that you are basically a good person... but the power you have
> does worry me though. I don't want to see you misuse it and I do
> hope that you are *very* careful about this, friend. And I do consider
> you a friend.
>
> Lisa
Then be my friend. At times, people close to me have screamed at me:
'Who gives you the right to decide who lives and who dies?' ... a
remark that Racine's attitude resonated with. It is arrogance to judge
others.
I can only say that when God's voice is silent, and nobody seems to
know what to do, then I will do something ... I will decide if no one
else will ...
Power abhors a vacuum.
But I don't believe that it is my right to impose my will upon the
least of persons.
If you are worried about me then be my friend, don't leave me alone,
speak your mind to me. For it is when it is that I seem utterly alone
that I tend to resort to means of power.
Personally, I'd rather talk things out anyday.
nguyen
William Tucker
"nguyen" <aik...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5740c929.02032...@posting.google.com...
me too...
Wm
hy
> If you are worried about me then be my friend, don't leave me alone,
> speak your mind to me. For it is when it is that I seem utterly alone
> that I tend to resort to means of power.
:) that's a good point. It is a lot easier to do mean things when we
don't have friends balancing us out.
whitlow
hello nudjen i gorra agree wi ya power does abhor a vacuum that's why
we don't tend to get the hoover out too much cos it might upset the
power man. we got a lot of power where me an clint live nudjin our
gaff's on a ley-line connecting up with five henges and a kentucky
fried, and if you extend the line past druid's corner it comes out in
a chipshop on the coast where i once found a seven-sided dice outside
on the pavement, so like that's really freaky energy goin on there
nudjen i don't want to disturb it by gettin the vacuum out cos it may
deflect the ley-line energy unpredictably resultin in a chaotic
escalation of forces that result in turbulence in the ant world, cos
ants bein smaller are more susceptible to disturbance in the power
vortex of the ley-line, specially when it goes through a chipshop an a
kentucky cos that's quite rare to have both on the same ley-line. so
yeah you're dead on man power does abhor a vacuum so i generally say
to clint leave it in the cupboard man i'd rather live in a pigsty than
take chances on disturbing such powerful ley-line energy with
carelessly applied suction. and besides, patterns you get in dust can
tell you things man that'd blow your mind if you can read it.
whitlow, vacuumin's a bore mr magick oooo-ooooh
Casey Sheldon
> <shrug> Anyone who makes it through the training process has to know
> and demonstrate their ability to defend themselves through unseen
> powers. It is the sine non qua standard.
Among warriors there will always be the need to know who is strongest. In
this case, strength is not merely sheer ability, but also includes
ruthlessness, adaptability to circumstance, and other factors. I noticed in
the other thread that you were discussing the characteristics of true
psychic attack/curses. In the same line of thought, I have heard many
magicians discuss "magical duels." Is this anachronistic thinking, or do
these sorts of battles still occur? If so, how does one know when the
challenge has been issued? If these questions seem misguided, then chalk it
up to the fact that I'm asking based on things that I've heard from
delusional people as well as magicians that I would consider to be fairly
adept. It is my experience that, like you mention in one of the snipped
paragraphs, most magicians who have the ability to engage in such combats,
generally do not talk to people who are not at their level. I'm curious as
to why you do. Where do you break from their ideals and philosophies?
Anyway, the last time we conversed we were speaking of the natures and
characteristics of quintessence, and I've found your information to be
consistent with my experiences, so I figured that I would ask you about this
subject, seeing as it has come up here. Thanx in advance!
--
Casey Sheldon
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually on sympathy, education, and social
ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
restrained by fear of punishment and hope of
reward after death."
- Albert Einstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> nguyen
>
Eoghan Ballard
catherine yronwode
> "Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote:
> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Yet, by steeping themselves in that sort of vindictive, spiteful,
> > > and murderous thinking and behavior, they [adherents of Voodoo]
> > > fix themselves in a matrix of hatred and isolation.
[...]
> > > Is it any wonder that the ranks of Vodou practitioners are never
> > > very large?
> >
> > WHOA! Who told you that? Vodou is the *majority* religion of
> > Haiti, there are millions of Vodouisants in Haiti.
>
> On a global scale, you're a mere handful. And you'll never be more
> than a mere handful.
This conversation led me to check out the figures at
http://www.adherents.com
("Adherents.com is a growing collection of over 41,000 adherent
statistics and religious geography citations -- references to published
membership/adherent statistics and congregation statistics for over
4,200 religions, churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith
groups, tribes, cultures, movements, ultimate concerns, etc.")
Here are their basic stats:
--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents
(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly
for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive
number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)
1.Christianity: 2 billion
2.Islam: 1.3 billion
3.Hinduism: 900 million
4.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5.Buddhism: 360 million
6.Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7.primal-indigenous: 190 million
8.Sikhism: 23 million
* 9.Yoruba religion: 20 million
10.Juche: 19 million
11.Spiritism: 14 million
12.Judaism: 14 million
13.Baha'i: 6 million
14.Jainism: 4 million
15.Shinto: 4 million
16.Cao Dai: 3 million
17.Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
** 18.Neo-Paganism: 1 million
19.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
20.Scientology: 750 thousand
21.Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
22.Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
* Vodoun: Vodoun is classified here as a subset of Yoruba religion.
Technically, Vodoun may be more Dahomean and Fon in origin (these are
tribal groups adjacent to Yorubas in West Africa), but it may easily be
thought of as part of the same Yoruba-dominated African-Western
Hemisphere religious category.
** Neo-Paganism: Neo-Paganism is an umbrella term for modern revivals of
ancient ethnic and magickal traditions. These are usually polytheistic,
but many Neo-Pagans consider their faith pantheistic, and many other
concepts of deity can be found among Neo-Pagans as well. Subdivisions
within Neo-Paganism include Wicca, Magick, Druidism, Asatru, neo-Native
American religion and others.
--------------------------------------------------------
So, Tom, according to the statistics cited above, the ratio of combined
African/African diasporic congregants worldwide to the combined
neo-pagan/magick/Asatru/Wicca congregants worldwide is 20 to 1.
cat yronwode
The Esoteric Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric.html
Renfield
> Ah, but there is no light or dark side, there is only ourselves.
Be very good or very bad, even if only for a week, and then tell me
what you have learned about yourself.
-Geist
Tom
> African/African diasporic congregants worldwide to the combined
> neo-pagan/magick/Asatru/Wicca congregants worldwide is 20 to 1.
But, of course we weren't talking about every single variant of Yoruba
culture. We were discussing Vodou, which *may be* derived from Yoruba or
it *may not*. Trying to toss 20 million Africans into the argument, even
though they may have nothing whatever to do with Vodou, is just an attempt
to confuse the matter.
Using your argument, we might as well lump neo-paganism in with
"primal-indigenous" religions, from which they *may have* sprung. That
makes it 190 million to 20 million. Vodou loses again.
nguyen
> Among warriors there will always be the need to know who is strongest. In
> this case, strength is not merely sheer ability, but also includes
> ruthlessness, adaptability to circumstance, and other factors.
Correct.
> I noticed in
> the other thread that you were discussing the characteristics of true
> psychic attack/curses. In the same line of thought, I have heard many
> magicians discuss "magical duels." Is this anachronistic thinking, or do
> these sorts of battles still occur?
Yeah. Think of human nature.
You have a bunch of highly disciplined, radically disposed (wishy
washy people don't get very far), proud (by far more common than
humility), prone to strong disagreement (people who agree with others
all the time don't buck the crowd enough to learn real magic), and
somewhat paranoid (after you get to a certain level, invisible powers
generally try to knock you off because you pop up on their radar)
people with no social reconciliation or legal enforcement system to
scare or persuade them into "being good".
Sometimes it's worse than the wild west.
Only calling it a "duel" is a little bit of a stretch of an
imagination.
> If so, how does one know when the
> challenge has been issued?
When you survive the hit or some other poor bastard or object takes
the near miss. The more serious a magician is about getting someone,
generally the less they talk about any given effort. Unless you're
demoing for a student or something.
There is no formal system or code of dueling.
> If these questions seem misguided, then chalk it
> up to the fact that I'm asking based on things that I've heard from
> delusional people as well as magicians that I would consider to be fairly
> adept.
Sure.
> It is my experience that, like you mention in one of the snipped
> paragraphs, most magicians who have the ability to engage in such combats,
> generally do not talk to people who are not at their level.
Sure. It's one of the unwritten rules.
I think it happens because the better you get, the less interested one
generally becomes in lower level socializing and discourse because of
the general lack of understanding prevelant.
> I'm curious as
> to why you do.
The word belief will be used loosely here for convenience's sake, it
doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to an average person.
Lots of reasons. I don't believe in the snottiness most magicians seem
to acquire. I believe that magic(k) is a brithright of humanity
coequal with art, science, and religion and that unlike them has
fallen into decay (religion's recent fate is instructive) and should
be rehabilitated and advanced. Most people forget that most of the
scientific advances that let them sneer at magical superstitions have
been developed in just *four centuries*. Take science and technology
back four centuries, and you'll see that it was in a similar
developmental stage as magic(k) is stuck at now and has been for about
four centuries.
As people get better and better, they generally hang around places
like this ng less and less. It loses interest with them. When you've
arranged mortal fates with gods, listening to some newbie whine about
what color to visualize an archangel's eyes or some idiot prating
about belief get's grating. They've got better things to do like
elections to tip or wars to set in motion or small countries to use in
pawns in their games. So why not? I'm still kind of the new kid on the
block among them. They're not listening here. If I thought my peers
were listening and responding, I might react differently. The angel(s)
of my better nature told me to do so. Arm wrestled is closer to it.
That wasn't meant as a metaphor.
> Where do you break from their ideals and philosophies?
Most people who get really far in magic(k) have to work hard, and they
generally have to either be recruited into an old tradition, stumble
over some operation and get adopted, or obsessively dedicated on the
order of 40 something hours a week for decades.
And they generally pick one system and go with that.
Even if you bust hump, syncrenists almost never make it because the
stress is too great and most pasted together ideas fall apart
underneath it. Most people don't have time to reinvent the wheel
either from scratch, a living tradition can represent the effective
learning of centuries or millenia.
Don't get me wrong, there are is a whole cascading pyramid of
graduated levels of 'advancement'. I'm talking about the far end of
the spectrum here, the one in a 100,000 or one in a million who is
*really* serious about magic(k) as in literally cut throat serious.
But I'm different. Basically, practically everything I know I either
was born with or learned on my own. I was isolated, had no teacher,
and basically invented everything on my own. Started when I was 11
seriously and met my first real magician when I was close to 20. In
retrospect, I think I may have scared or weirded the hell out of him.
So as someone outside the usual lines of advancement, I'm an anomoly.
I don't have the same kind of values that many other magicians are
taught or acquire. *Culturally* and *mentally* I'm just an
above-average smart guy off the street who doesn't believe at all in
most of the mindsets that people have to go through to get somewhere
in magic(k). I like 'ordinary people'.
Eventually I did meet "them". I was terribly disappointed. Generally
they're not very nice people.
Allot of magicians who get to a certain point generally get this
attitude that everyday people without magic(k) are marks for the
taking, or at best irrelevant idiots. They'd figure that most of the
people here are chumps who are dicking around and will never get
anywhere in magic(k) and thus would be worthy of their contempt, to be
ignored, or silent puppet master-esque manipulations.
I generally don't have that attitude.
> Anyway, the last time we conversed we were speaking of the natures and
> characteristics of quintessence, and I've found your information to be
> consistent with my experiences, so I figured that I would ask you about this
> subject, seeing as it has come up here. Thanx in advance!
>
> --
> Casey Sheldon
Remember what I've written describes a trend. The people you know
probably show some degree of it. For whatever reason, the attitude of
not explaining stuff tends to get markedly worse the more you get away
from the ordinary. Guess that's why they call it the occult. The
patronizing, dismissive, or outright exploitation of less advanced
persons also seems to become worse. You can see people playing at it
here. In turn, there are people who sneer at them. In turn, others
still from deeper shadows sneer at those people.
For whatever reason, being born outside this environment, coming up on
my own almost totally isolated from other magic(k)al practioners, etc.
I never got into that groove. Seemed pretty idiotic to me.
nguyen
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> > Western Hemisphere religious category.
> >
> > So, Tom, according to the statistics cited above, the ratio of
> > combined African/African diasporic congregants worldwide to the
> > combined neo-pagan/magick/Asatru/Wicca congregants worldwide is
> > 20 to 1.
>
> But, of course we weren't talking about every single variant of Yoruba
> culture. We were discussing Vodou, which *may be* derived from Yoruba
> or it *may not*.
Actually, this is a complex issue. When African people were enslaved and
brought to the Americas, they came from numerous
/national/tribal/language groups, with separate religons (separate
pantheons, modes of worship, etc.) that were all somewhat related in a
few basics (ancestor veneration, for instance).
Members of these different African nations wre deliberately mixed
together by their "owners" in an attempt to minimize inter-tribal
communication and thus subvert the potential for rebellions. Thus
Haitian Voodoo contains some elements of non-Fon/Ewe religions, just as
Santeria contains elements of non-Yoruba religions. A nation like Cuba
contains Yoruba, Fon/Ewe, and Kongo religios groups side-by-side, and it
is not uncommon for a person to belong to two of them, due to
intermarriage. In the New World, the incorporated pantheons of a second
African religion often appear as a secondary strain within religion
largely derived from a different African religion and they are is
deliberately preserved in the form of special rites for the other
"nation." This is a direct outgrowth of the forced mixing of the
"nations" that occurred under slavery.
You can find some material about this subject at Racine's Vooooodou
Pages site. You can also get a dramatized idea of how such accomodations
arose by watching the movie "Amistad," where you will see how a
ship-load of people from different tribes were forced together and were
trying to sort out their own national issues even as they were being
treated as chattel.
For these and other reasons, it seems to be the growing consensus to
categorize these religions as "African & African Diasporic." It is
almost impossible, after 500 years of intensive intermarriage in the
diaspora, to say that any African-Diasporic religion is the pure
offshoot of one African language-group.
Actually, i have been in correspondence with the webmaster of
adherents.com about his casual use of the term "Yoruba Religion," which
necessitated his footnote to explain that he included Vodoun in that
group. I suggested that he use the more general term "African and
African-Diasporic" -- as the DMOZ directory does -- to cover the entire
field. He wrote me that he thinks this is a good idea, and he will
probably implement it.
This would make "African and African-Diasporic" equivalent in scope to
"Neo-Paganism," which he refers to as an "umbrella group" because it
includes Wicca, Aatru, Druidry, and Magick (Thelema).
> Trying to toss 20 million Africans into the
> argument, even though they may have nothing whatever to do with Vodou,
> is just an attempt to confuse the matter.
You did not read the document correctly, Tom. The 20 million figure was
for Yoruba, Fon/Ewe (and presumeably Kongo) adherents in Africa AND in
the Americas (including Nigeria, Benin, Dahomey, Cuba, Haiti, the US,
etc.).
Counting the adherents of African and African-Diasporic religions
trans-oceanically, not regionally -- just as Christianity, Buddhism,
Hinduism, and the others are counted -- is the only reasonable way to
make a world-wide compilation of adherents. (The site does have
regional/geographic brwakdowns of religions, too, when they are made
abvailable through national census reports.)
In the case of the African Diasporic religions, many people do not
appreciate the fact that since the abolition of slavery and the rise of
cheap transportation, adherents of these religions from both sides of
the Atlantic Ocean have gotten in touch with their counterparts on the
other side. People who belong to lineages that had lost portions of
their liturgy sue to the oppression of slavery have in some cases sent
emissaries to Africa to re-acquire liturgical information. At the same
time there has arisen during the past 30 years a re-Africanization
movement" in some lineages of Diasporic religions. Thus we now see some
Yoruba-derived New World religionists identifying their religion as
"Santeria" (displaying an admixture of Catholic symbolism overlaid on an
Afircan theology) and some Yoruba-derived New World religionists
identifying their religion as "Lukumi" (purely African-allied, not
displaying Catholic symbolism). Likewise there are branches of Palo
(Kongo-derived religion) in the New World that are Afro-centric and
others which, by contrast, have adopted some Catholic symbolism
(although not a strictly Catholic theology or cosmology).
> Using your argument, we might as well lump neo-paganism in with
> "primal-indigenous" religions, from which they *may have* sprung.
> That makes it 190 million to 20 million. Vodou loses again.
That's specious. Neo-Pagan religions such as Wicca and Thelema did not
spring from "primal indigenous religions -- and, more importantly, they
has no functional relationship to those religions at the present time.
Yoruba, Fon/Ewe, and Kongo religions in the New World have not only a
lineal relationship to the same religions in Africa, they address
themselves to the same pantheons, utilize similar musical literugy, and
they share the same general symbolism (planetary, colour, foods) for the
pantheon-mamebers. For me, the real clincher that led me to understand
their functional relationship to Africa was when i learned that in many
Cuban houses the services are conducted in part in African languages
(preserved through 500 years of diaspora). In other words, these are not
"revivals" in the sense that Neo-Pagan religions are -- they are true
surviving lineages that are, in many cases, in the process of reuiniting
after a long diaspora.
The analogy between these religions and the various branches of Judaism
in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, and the New World should be obvious
to you -- and just as the adherents American Judaism are grouped with
the adherents of Israeli Judaism for the purpose of determining the
worldwide number of adherents to Judaism, so it is reasonable to group
the African and African Diasporic religions together to achive a
worldwide count of adherents.
cat yronwode
Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html
catherine yronwode
>
[other, intersting things snipped to focus on this part:]
>
> Most people who get really far in magic(k) have to work hard, and they
> generally have to either be recruited into an old tradition, stumble
> over some operation and get adopted, or obsessively dedicated on the
> order of 40 something hours a week for decades.
I agree. Natural aptitude is also a factor, as is intelligence and
having a good memory. I don't think i have ever met a really solid
magician with a poor memory.
> And they generally pick one system and go with that.
Generally. Not always. For years at a time, anyway.
> Even if you bust hump, syncrenists almost never make it because the
> stress is too great and most pasted together ideas fall apart
> underneath it. Most people don't have time to reinvent the wheel
> either from scratch, a living tradition can represent the effective
> learning of centuries or millenia.
Syncretists also have a hard time communicating to followers or friends
because one would literally have to recapitulate the steps they took to
get to the same conclusion and that would be anathema to the next
generation of syncretists! :-)
In discussing traditionalism versus syncretism, i also find it useful to
mention in passing the huge spurt in human population over the past 250
years and the destabilizing effect this has had not only upon ecosystems
but cultural traditions. The devaluing of magical traditionalism is of a
piece with the sudden change from rural to urban environments. "The
future of magick," as David called it, is in some ways similar to "the
future of urban life" -- and i leave it to each reader to draw his or
her own conclusions about where that will get us.
> Don't get me wrong, there are is a whole cascading pyramid of
> graduated levels of 'advancement'. I'm talking about the far end of
> the spectrum here, the one in a 100,000 or one in a million who is
> *really* serious about magic(k) as in literally cut throat serious.
I'd like to put in a word for those who are serious but are not
cut-throat serious. Magical attainment, unlike warfare, can be practiced
in a solitary manner, without respect to opponents.
> But I'm different. Basically, practically everything I know I either
> was born with or learned on my own. I was isolated, had no teacher,
> and basically invented everything on my own. Started when I was 11
> seriously and met my first real magician when I was close to 20. In
> retrospect, I think I may have scared or weirded the hell out of him.
I think that this experience is not all that uncommon. I realized my
interest in magic around the age of 8 or 9 and began serious (albeit
childish) experimentation around the same age you did. I found that my
best companions and teachers in the subject were those whose voices were
recorded in books on ethnology and folklore, and i did not meet living
practitioners of these traditions until i was about 14. For reasons of
temperement and physical limitations, i have been unwilling and unable
to join any magical order (although i do belong to a fraternal order, in
which i participate as a fringe member without office).
> So as someone outside the usual lines of advancement, I'm an anomoly.
Being "outside the usual lines of advancement" may be the draw that this
forum has for some of us -- attendance is voluntary and conversation
here demands little in the way of formalism.
> I don't have the same kind of values that many other magicians are
> taught or acquire. *Culturally* and *mentally* I'm just an
> above-average smart guy off the street who doesn't believe at all in
> most of the mindsets that people have to go through to get somewhere
> in magic(k). I like 'ordinary people'.
I feel the same way. I think that this inclination of mine, and my bold
restatement of it now and again, is why i am characterized as
"political" by some: apparently having cordial relationships with
"ordinary people" is not a value shared by everyone here.
> Eventually I did meet "them". I was terribly disappointed. Generally
> they're not very nice people.
>
> Allot of magicians who get to a certain point generally get this
> attitude that everyday people without magic(k) are marks for the
> taking, or at best irrelevant idiots.
Cf. the Harry Potter books. :-)
> They'd figure that most of the
> people here are chumps who are dicking around and will never get
> anywhere in magic(k) and thus would be worthy of their contempt, to be
> ignored, or silent puppet master-esque manipulations.
>
> I generally don't have that attitude.
I generally *oppose* that attitude.
> Remember what I've written describes a trend. The people you know
> probably show some degree of it. For whatever reason, the attitude of
> not explaining stuff tends to get markedly worse the more you get away
> from the ordinary. Guess that's why they call it the occult. The
> patronizing, dismissive, or outright exploitation of less advanced
> persons also seems to become worse. You can see people playing at it
> here. In turn, there are people who sneer at them. In turn, others
> still from deeper shadows sneer at those people.
There is another trend working too -- siva identifies it as the trend to
actively shut down discourse about techniques and methods of magic.
Book-lists are given freely, but there are many here who specifically
seek to discourage newbies who ask how to *do* magic.
Like you said, "Guess that's why they call it the occult." And i also
guess that's why the newsgroup alt.occult.methods was created -- to
circumvent the tendency to revile techniques in this newsgroup.
> For whatever reason, being born outside this environment, coming up on
> my own almost totally isolated from other magic(k)al practioners, etc.
> I never got into that groove. Seemed pretty idiotic to me.
To me too -- i so greatly enjoyed what i could learn of magic on my own,
reading books and later meeting people, that i want to give that same
kind of pleasure to those who are younger than me. My joy in magic at
age 18 was simply grand -- i was at it all day, every day -- and i
learned a tremendous amount from kindly elders in the astrological,
GD/BOTA, hoodoo, and syncretist communities. Their attentiveness to my
newbie questions led me to aspire to be as accesible to others as they
were once to me.
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Lisa Gardner
I am your friend.
There is a place in the Old Testament where YHWH says something
like, 'I was amazed that there was no one to say anything'... or
something like this. I will have to get the exact quote - it is one
of the quotes that means a lot to me - because it talks of YHWH
seeing all of this shit going down, no one doing anything about
it, and him deciding that well, okay, *he* would do something
about it. The feeling I get from the quote is that he watched all of
this shit go down, watched so many makes excuses about it
(its the karma machine, its the way of the universe, its the way
things have to be) while reaping their profit from it all and not
caring about those whom they trod over to make that profit -
and it finally made him sick and he decided that *he* would
do something about it all.
So he did.
You're one of his, I think.
That is a compliment coming from me.
I did not see your post on google so I am replying to this
post here.
> >Power abhors a vacuum.
>
> hello nudjen i gorra agree wi ya power does abhor a vacuum that's why
> we don't tend to get the hoover out too much cos it might upset the
> power man. we got a lot of power where me an clint live nudjin our
> gaff's on a ley-line connecting up with five henges and a kentucky
> fried, and if you extend the line past druid's corner
The trees are great friends of YHWH in my opinion.
>it comes out in
> a chipshop on the coast where i once found a seven-sided dice outside
> on the pavement, so like that's really freaky energy goin on there
> nudjen i don't want to disturb it by gettin the vacuum out cos it may
> deflect the ley-line energy unpredictably resultin in a chaotic
> escalation of forces that result in turbulence in the ant world, cos
> ants bein smaller are more susceptible to disturbance in the power
> vortex of the ley-line, specially when it goes through a chipshop an a
> kentucky cos that's quite rare to have both on the same ley-line. so
> yeah you're dead on man power does abhor a vacuum so i generally say
> to clint leave it in the cupboard man i'd rather live in a pigsty than
> take chances on disturbing such powerful ley-line energy with
> carelessly applied suction. and besides, patterns you get in dust can
> tell you things man that'd blow your mind if you can read it.
On the other hand, if you see someone being beaten or
drowned, I would like to think that you might want to extend
some help. that isone of the main things for me. Other things
can start to kill the heart I think. The Eloi were innocent, but
they were also dinner... being taken all of the time and disconnected
one from another, continually letting each other drown.
Lisa
Lisa Gardner
Sure. It's all very funny. Anyone who thinks otherwise
is just 'way too gullible', right? And no one wants to seem
gullible.
Actually, I don't give a shit if I seem gullible or not.
Lisa
Lisa Gardner
Yet we can do mathematics and use calculus to build bridges.
these things are things we learned from the 'dual mind',
IMHO. A builder's and creator's tool, but a dangerous thing
as well.
Lisa
Casey Sheldon
>
> Only calling it a "duel" is a little bit of a stretch of an
> imagination.
***Yea, this has kind of been my experience with such things, also. The
dirtier one can fight, the better one is considered to be sort of thing. How
sad that in the upper eschalons of those who should be realising the Great
Work, Might still makes Right.
> There is no formal system or code of dueling.
***How would it even be propagated? (kind of a rhetorical, that is unless
you can think of a possible manner)
> Sure. It's one of the unwritten rules.
>
> I think it happens because the better you get, the less interested one
> generally becomes in lower level socializing and discourse because of
> the general lack of understanding prevelant.
***I'm somewhere in between by these terms, I think.
> The word belief will be used loosely here for convenience's sake, it
> doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to an average person.
***I tend to adhere to your definition as opposed to Bruce's, though, so
that's okay.
> As people get better and better, they generally hang around places
> like this ng less and less. It loses interest with them. When you've
> arranged mortal fates with gods, listening to some newbie whine about
> what color to visualize an archangel's eyes or some idiot prating
> about belief get's grating. They've got better things to do like
> elections to tip or wars to set in motion or small countries to use in
> pawns in their games. So why not? I'm still kind of the new kid on the
> block among them. They're not listening here. If I thought my peers
> were listening and responding, I might react differently. The angel(s)
> of my better nature told me to do so. Arm wrestled is closer to it.
> That wasn't meant as a metaphor.
***That is in part why I am here also (Are you sure it wasn't a full blown
wrestling match?). I find most of the bickering to be futile and petty.
Nevertheless, some interesting people still manage to have interesting
discussions a bit more often than once in awhile.
> > Where do you break from their ideals and philosophies?
>
> Most people who get really far in magic(k) have to work hard, and they
> generally have to either be recruited into an old tradition, stumble
> over some operation and get adopted, or obsessively dedicated on the
> order of 40 something hours a week for decades.
>
> And they generally pick one system and go with that.
>
> Even if you bust hump, syncrenists almost never make it because the
> stress is too great and most pasted together ideas fall apart
> underneath it. Most people don't have time to reinvent the wheel
> either from scratch, a living tradition can represent the effective
> learning of centuries or millenia.
***True. However, I think it is possible to create such a paradigm with the
help of a deity that is so inclined. If it is necessary, whether I want it
or not, it will get done. And in the end, I really wouldn't have it any
other way. Gods tend to be able to make much better plans, after all...
(hmmmmm..... wonder why? ;-) )
> Don't get me wrong, there are is a whole cascading pyramid of
> graduated levels of 'advancement'. I'm talking about the far end of
> the spectrum here, the one in a 100,000 or one in a million who is
> *really* serious about magic(k) as in literally cut throat serious.
>
> But I'm different. Basically, practically everything I know I either
> was born with or learned on my own. I was isolated, had no teacher,
> and basically invented everything on my own. Started when I was 11
> seriously and met my first real magician when I was close to 20. In
> retrospect, I think I may have scared or weirded the hell out of him.
***I studied Christianity for 8 solid years (10-18). During that time I read
anywhere in between 2 and 20 chapters in a night (not to mention my fiction
novels) of the Bible or christian literature (C.S. Lewis, Thomas A Kempis,
Foxe's Book of Martyrs, etc...). I had the intellectual aspect down pat. I
sang my heart out in church and went to concerts (mainly christian music,
again, and primarily blues artists, when I could get to them) so that I
could get an emotional high. The two separately just didn't satisfy me,
though. I went in search of "my path" around 18 and didn't even get an idea
of what I was looking for until last year (it has been 5 years). So here I
am, 24, and I just met the first magician, who I knew was a magician, maybe
6 months ago. I recognise the rituals of Christianity as having
manifestational effect, but it seems to be mainly a gestalt form which
requires little to no actual ability from 90% of its adherents. That's just
not what I'm looking for. I self-initiated at 19, and did my first shamanic
soul-retrieval that night. I used to doubt, and wonder if it was all "real",
but about a year ago I had an experience where the "scales fell from my
eyes" as Paul put it. Now I can no longer doubt, and there is no turning
back. I really don't have any trad roots, or anything. Sometimes trad
outcasts have adopted me for a time, and taught me a few tricks here and
there, but generally I can't fully adapt their paradigms to my own, so I
throw a lot of stuff away.
> I generally don't have that attitude.
***I'm certainly glad. "All that is gold does not glitter..."
> For whatever reason, being born outside this environment, coming up on
> my own almost totally isolated from other magic(k)al practioners, etc.
> I never got into that groove. Seemed pretty idiotic to me.
***I would have to agree with you there.
Pearlz
> whitlow <whi...@momentarily.com> wrote in message news:<4drn9ukebc3rccvbj...@4ax.com>...
> > On 22 Mar 2002 14:04:20 -0800, aik...@yahoo.com (nguyen) wrote:
> > >lgar...@mbay.net (Lisa Gardner) wrote in message news:<a317c4b9.02032...@posting.google.com>...
> > >When I was growing up I seemed utterly alone, ignorant, vulnerable,
> > >and weak in an extremely callous and hostile world. So I spent years
> > >on a quest to become knowledge, skilled, and as dangerous as I could
> > >possibly become.
Well put. This is really good. There is a character like this on
the cartoon "Sponge Bob Square Pants". His name is Plankton.
- Peggy -
nguyen
[snip]
>
> So he did.
>
> You're one of his, I think.
>
> That is a compliment coming from me.
>
I'm a man Lisa. I want what men want. I want to get laid as often as
possible, status, and money.
My curse however is that I will not do just anything to get it. When I
think of all the women, wine, and wealth I've turned down on the basis
of principle ... it makes me sick. A lifetime of honesty and really
where does it get me?
Not far let me tell you.
Doing the right thing seems very noble and admirable, until about the
zillionith time you get screwed because of it. Then it just get's real
old. That old saw about virtue being its own reward runs pretty thin
after a while. And helping others gets pretty old when you feel like
you're always giving and not receiving very often.
Still, if I could do more for the sorry mess out there I would. Just
on the general principle that I loathe mendacity and stupid criminal
waste of potential.
You read up on the Pearl / Sheik Gilani bit in the news Lisa?
nguyen
catherine yronwode
>
>
> I'm a man Lisa. I want what men want. I want to get laid as often as
> possible, status, and money.
>
> My curse however is that I will not do just anything to get it. When
> I think of all the women, wine, and wealth I've turned down on the
> basis of principle ... it makes me sick. A lifetime of honesty and
> really where does it get me?
>
> Not far let me tell you.
>
> Doing the right thing seems very noble and admirable, until about
> the zillionith time you get screwed because of it. Then it just
> get's real old. That old saw about virtue being its own reward runs
> pretty thin after a while. And helping others gets pretty old when
> you feel like you're always giving and not receiving very often.
>
> Still, if I could do more for the sorry mess out there I would. Just
> on the general principle that I loathe mendacity and stupid criminal
> waste of potential.
If you want to know where a lifetime of dishonesty gets people, look no
farther than the evening news: It gets your the same place that a
lifetime of honesty does, but perhaps a little more spectacularly,
that's all.
It may seem an odd revelation, coming from old hippie me, but i like to
read the supermarket tabloids. Not the silly alien-invasion ones, the
ones about celebrities. Because i don't watch tv (except for one show,
ER) and buy no new music (i like acoustic blues and country music from
the 1920s-30s and buy lots of that), i only know who a few of these
celebrities are. J-Lo, P-Diddy, formerly Puff Daddy, I have not heard a
single one of their tunes. But i read about them ("Terrified Jennifer
Dumps Puff Daddy!"), and i guess you could say that i do so as a
discipline. I want to feel the waves of attachment and detachment
balance out. It's like riding a roller coaster.
I started reading the tabloids a long time ago -- decades ago. I don't
read them every week, or even every month, just when a headline grabs my
attention. Over the years, i have noticed that what these headline bring
me close to is a paradigm-shift, a vision of the path i didn't take and
the path that was barred to me because of Hitler's actions against Jews,
which threw my mother's wealthy family into poverty-striken immigrant
status -- but allowed my mother to become a beatnik and marry outside
her race and class. I am so grateful for my mother's bravery in
becoming a bohemian. I am happy that i too took that path. But
sometimes, when i look at my shabby old computer (ten years old, only
able to run netscape 3.0.1), i think, well, i could have gone for the
gold, or whatever they call it -- the mainstream life, the academic
life, even the life of celebrity. Women want that stuff too, Nguyen --
"to get laid as often as possible, status, and money."
And that's when i look at these tabloids, filled with stories of
celebrities -- and these stories are about children drowming in pools
(my first child died of sudden infant death syndrome in her crib) , of
drug addiction (my uncle was a heroin addict, i avoided such problems by
observing his decay), of broken marriages (i am on my third marriage
now), of suicide attempts (i only half-tried that once, when i was 13; i
never did it again), of mental breakdowns when dumped by a lover (been
there, done that, got over it), of anorexia and bullimia (never had that
problem; don't know why), of plastic surgery (that might be fun, if i
could afford it), of wonderful pets (i've had a few myself), of fancy
meals (me too, plenty), of dieting (i try to keep my weight within
reason and seem to do okay), of gun fights (never done that, hope never
to do so), of murders (no thanks), of death (well, i shan't be there to
read about my own).
And what i learn is this: money, fame, the fruits of dishonesty or the
fruits of natural talent and charisma -- it really doesn't matter. There
are only so many days to have great meals and great sex and cuddle up
with a good book and a soft furry pet.
A famous person recently died. My step-father, the sex-abusing asshole,
was once a gigolo for that famous person's wife. He lived with the
couple, in their Los Angeles mansion. They had those far-out wrap-around
shower sprayer things that rich people had installed in their mansions
during the 1920s. They collected expensive paintings. They had a pool.
They were nice to him. This was long before my step-father married my
mother; it was back in the 1940s, right after he got out of the Army at
the close of World War Two. But the woman stayed friends with him well
into the 1950s. He even took my mother to the mansion to meet her, and
she expressed satisfaction at their marriage.
Because of the stories my step-father told about these people, i always
felt a bit of fondness for this famous man, and a bit of curiousity. Why
did his wife want a gigolo? Why did the famous man allow the gigolo to
live in the house? What was my step-father doing being a gigologo,
anyway? Obviously there were some sexual discrepencies in that family,
no matter how rich and famous. I didn't know at the time, actually, how
famous this man realkly was, or what wonderful things he had done. It
was only later, as i was growing up, that i began to see his name
everywhere, among the gems and baubles of the world that i loved so
dearly. And i thought of him, creating these wonderful glimpses into the
human condition while my step-father, the sex-abusing asshole (but then
a much younger, more naive and inncoent fellow, i supposed) was at his
home, shtupping his wife, on the payroll.
What does a lifetime of honesty get you, Nguyen? It gets you the same
thing that a life of dishonesty gets you, the same thing a lifetime of
riches and fame gets you, the same thing that a lifetime of poverty and
obscurity gets you. It gets you a shot at happiness, a chance to create
a few interesting things, and a chance to play with the puzzle pieces
before they are put away again.
So rest in Peace, Mr. Famous Man. I hope you had fun. I still don't know
why you hired my future stepfather to fuck your wife, but i like the
famous jobs you did while he was toiling at his obscure job.
Nguyen, the world is really, really weird. Enjoy it while you can. There
won't be another one like it.
cat yronwode
Lucky W Amulet Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html
William Tucker
Wm
Lisa Gardner
> lgar...@mbay.net (Lisa Gardner) wrote in message news:<a317c4b9.02032...@posting.google.com>...
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > So he did.
> >
> > You're one of his, I think.
> >
> > That is a compliment coming from me.
> >
>
> I'm a man Lisa. I want what men want. I want to get laid as often as
> possible, status, and money.
Yeah, I believe you.
> My curse however is that I will not do just anything to get it. When I
> think of all the women, wine, and wealth I've turned down on the basis
> of principle ... it makes me sick. A lifetime of honesty and really
> where does it get me?
>
> Not far let me tell you.
Yes, I think you're right.
But i may get you the association of those for whom these
things matter, you know? A life in which you are eventually
surrounded mostly by these people.
And *that* is worth something IMHO.
> Doing the right thing seems very noble and admirable, until about the
> zillionith time you get screwed because of it. Then it just get's real
> old. That old saw about virtue being its own reward runs pretty thin
> after a while. And helping others gets pretty old when you feel like
> you're always giving and not receiving very often.
There are limits to what humans can take, yes.
I sure as hell know that. I get angry as hell.
> Still, if I could do more for the sorry mess out there I would. Just
> on the general principle that I loathe mendacity and stupid criminal
> waste of potential.
>
> You read up on the Pearl / Sheik Gilani bit in the news Lisa?
No... what happened? I don't read the news regularly..
Lisa
nguyen
>
> ***Yea, this has kind of been my experience with such things, also. The
> dirtier one can fight, the better one is considered to be sort of thing. How
> sad that in the upper eschalons of those who should be realising the Great
> Work, Might still makes Right.
>
Isn't that the way it always works? I can comprehend why too,
especially because I often choose differently. I try to engage on the
basis of mutual benefit, and not use people. But when you do that,
everyone else it seems is so used to using that they try to take you
for a ride. Sometimes you get so sick of it, you think maybe I ought
to just look out for number one ... nobody else gives a fuck ... why
should I?
Even people who get good at magic(k) that aren't into that using thing
get sick of it. They develop a shell, they use their abilities to warp
their corner of the world into a nice cozy retreat, and they withdraw
into it.
It's easier than trying to deal with all the two-faces, asseholes,
idiots, and bullies.
I try and I try and I try to live differently than the extremes of
retreat or amoral ruthlessness, but it's tough and it can be pretty
damned lonesome putting yourself out there on the line day after day
on a high wire act without a safety net.
> > There is no formal system or code of dueling.
>
> ***How would it even be propagated? (kind of a rhetorical, that is unless
> you can think of a possible manner)
>
There is sort of an informal one based upon basically social
mammalian/primate group organization behavior. Sort of like the
'respect' or face system that exists among other potentially violent
subcultures like organized crime or ex-mils. Or alternatively the
social-networking tribalistic systems that the neopagans or neovics
adopt. It's not all hard-nosed, though neopagan or neovic politics can
get pretty mean and nasty if not outright magic(k)ally violent.
For instance, as a loner and an outsider I had allot of people with
chips on their shoulders try to take me on/out. It doesn't help that I
have a smartass mouth but outwardly don't look as if I'd hurt a fly.
In order to get people to back down, I'd fight as mean, dirty, and
nasty as possible. I figured if I made a truly shocking example out of
the first guy, it might save me the trouble of having to deal with
nine others. After a while I got some nicknames - 'spite', mr.
vindictive', etc. There are allot of people to this day who don't know
much about me, except that they positively hate my guts because I
really ravaged bad one of their buddies or put down hard somebody they
knew.
> ***That is in part why I am here also (Are you sure it wasn't a full blown
> wrestling match?). I find most of the bickering to be futile and petty.
> Nevertheless, some interesting people still manage to have interesting
> discussions a bit more often than once in awhile.
>
I'm a pretty good tussler. Not even my higher self can put one over me
and have it all its own way. I try to negotiate things out. I'm not
too picky, I just want a little consideration.
> ***True. However, I think it is possible to create such a paradigm with the
> help of a deity that is so inclined. If it is necessary, whether I want it
> or not, it will get done. And in the end, I really wouldn't have it any
> other way. Gods tend to be able to make much better plans, after all...
> (hmmmmm..... wonder why? ;-) )
>
If you're willing to trust the god. Generally, having a smart mouth
and being impertinent and all seems to arouse the ire of deities for
some reason.
;)
> I used to doubt, and wonder if it was all "real",
> but about a year ago I had an experience where the "scales fell from my
> eyes" as Paul put it. Now I can no longer doubt, and there is no turning
> back. I really don't have any trad roots, or anything. Sometimes trad
> outcasts have adopted me for a time, and taught me a few tricks here and
> there, but generally I can't fully adapt their paradigms to my own, so I
> throw a lot of stuff away.
>
Sounds like you're ripe for the next stage of development, where you
either join or get sucked into the adepti culture. You ever hear of
Tzimon? He was a chaos mage who used to post on this ng. He got sick
of the b.s. and weaseling around the fact that many of the people were
no more than magic(k)al dillenntees. He started getting more into the
ancient tradition stuff from India. Then he met a guy from the
Hindu/Siva/Shakti culture trad and started studying directly with him.
He dropped out from posting, took down his chaos webpage permanently,
and went straight into adeptus training. It's probably the second
oldest direct descent magic(k) trad in the whole world.
It was pretty funny at the time, because as someone already within the
cultures for many years I could see exactly what was happening but
like usual nobody else seemed to notice or pay much attention to it or
understand its significance.
> > For whatever reason, being born outside this environment, coming up on
> > my own almost totally isolated from other magic(k)al practioners, etc.
> > I never got into that groove. Seemed pretty idiotic to me.
>
> ***I would have to agree with you there.
>
> --
> Casey Sheldon
>
Don't know. You sound ripe for some 'coincidental' meeting. There's
that old saw- when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
Mostly a stereotype based on adepti recruitment styles. The system
doesn't work quite as well as they would like it to or would like
others to believe it does.
Speaking of Adepti extant, you heard of Sheikh Gilani?
nguyen
Casey Sheldon
> especially because I often choose differently. I try to engage on the
> basis of mutual benefit, and not use people. But when you do that,
> everyone else it seems is so used to using that they try to take you
> for a ride. Sometimes you get so sick of it, you think maybe I ought
> to just look out for number one ... nobody else gives a fuck ... why
> should I?
I deal with that emotion quite a bit. I'm a recovering drug addict, and when
I was out there, I still couldn't bring myself to be violent, or to steal
from people. It really made me look like a target, although, the few times
that people did try and take my life, coincidences occured, and I stepped
right through their very real traps and lived. Now, I'm grateful to have had
the experiences I've had, because without them, I couldn't appreciate life
now. Generally speaking, nobody cares enough to try and kill me now, and I
live a fairly normal life (at least on the surface). Just that fact makes me
grateful for the life I have now. To me, courage is fighting a battle that
you might lose, not fighting for the sake of fighting. Although, I am still
guilty sometimes of fighting for its own sake, most often, I try to stay
away from such situations. Only fighting for the things I care about keeps
me energetic and feeling fulfilled. Anything else is draining, and makes me
feel hollow inside. Just the other day I wrote a paper about how my
addiction had affected my relationships. I literally had to fight my own
pride to read the thing. When I did, though, everyone in the room connected,
and we all understood each other. It wasn't something I knew would work, but
when I fought for the right reason, it energised me in a very real way.
Everyone in the room told me that it had touched them on a deep emotional
level. Those are the things that are worth fighting for, to me. That is why
I have to still give a fuck. No risk, no gain.
> Even people who get good at magic(k) that aren't into that using thing
> get sick of it. They develop a shell, they use their abilities to warp
> their corner of the world into a nice cozy retreat, and they withdraw
> into it.
>
> It's easier than trying to deal with all the two-faces, asseholes,
> idiots, and bullies.
Have you read Tolkien? Tom Bombadil syndrome. Hide out in your corner of the
world and master it, without ever dealing with the outside. I wouldn't say
it is a bad thing to do, just a different choice than I have made. Shamanism
in the city is different than being the guru on the mountain top. Neither is
better; it's just personal preference, imho.
> I try and I try and I try to live differently than the extremes of
> retreat or amoral ruthlessness, but it's tough and it can be pretty
> damned lonesome putting yourself out there on the line day after day
> on a high wire act without a safety net.
Agreed. And no trite phrases exist to help anyone through this.
> For instance, as a loner and an outsider I had allot of people with
> chips on their shoulders try to take me on/out. It doesn't help that I
> have a smartass mouth but outwardly don't look as if I'd hurt a fly.
>
> In order to get people to back down, I'd fight as mean, dirty, and
> nasty as possible. I figured if I made a truly shocking example out of
> the first guy, it might save me the trouble of having to deal with
> nine others. After a while I got some nicknames - 'spite', mr.
> vindictive', etc. There are allot of people to this day who don't know
> much about me, except that they positively hate my guts because I
> really ravaged bad one of their buddies or put down hard somebody they
> knew.
Eliminate the alpha, and the betas will scatter. Although one of my
self-proclaimed "left-hander" friends believes that humans are one of the
few animals that can have multiple alphas in a pack, seen commonly in tribal
situations by the existence of both a tribal leader and a shaman. Both have
authority, but at times both may supercede the other. I don't know enough
about tribal behaviors to make a judgement on the subject though.
> I'm a pretty good tussler. Not even my higher self can put one over me
> and have it all its own way. I try to negotiate things out. I'm not
> too picky, I just want a little consideration.
I don't like the idea of blind faith much either. Sometimes I'm willing to
accept a situation for a time, but I always reserve the right to examine the
conditions and consequences at will.
> If you're willing to trust the god. Generally, having a smart mouth
> and being impertinent and all seems to arouse the ire of deities for
> some reason.
>
> ;)
Trust is an issue that requires a very delicate balance between rational
consideration of the risks and willingness to believe that there may be
worthwhile rewards. My deity expects me to smart off to her, though... hehe
> Sounds like you're ripe for the next stage of development, where you
> either join or get sucked into the adepti culture. You ever hear of
> Tzimon? He was a chaos mage who used to post on this ng. He got sick
> of the b.s. and weaseling around the fact that many of the people were
> no more than magic(k)al dillenntees. He started getting more into the
> ancient tradition stuff from India. Then he met a guy from the
> Hindu/Siva/Shakti culture trad and started studying directly with him.
> He dropped out from posting, took down his chaos webpage permanently,
> and went straight into adeptus training. It's probably the second
> oldest direct descent magic(k) trad in the whole world.
>
> It was pretty funny at the time, because as someone already within the
> cultures for many years I could see exactly what was happening but
> like usual nobody else seemed to notice or pay much attention to it or
> understand its significance.
I would very much like to start learning from a teacher, but I have no
desire to rush ahead where angels fear to tread. Waiting for my intuition
has gotten me this far, and I think it is a good way to continue.
> Don't know. You sound ripe for some 'coincidental' meeting. There's
> that old saw- when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
> Mostly a stereotype based on adepti recruitment styles. The system
> doesn't work quite as well as they would like it to or would like
> others to believe it does.
Yea, I've met a couple of local magi, but seeing as this area is *very*
Christian Fundamentalist oriented, we can't talk too loudly anywhere. That
makes it tough, and besides that most of them are old and don't practice
anymore, at least to all outward appearances.
> Speaking of Adepti extant, you heard of Sheikh Gilani?
Somebody on Yahoo groups mentioned that, but I've not been getting my news
lately, so I'm still in the dark on that one.
nguyen
...
> from people. It really made me look like a target, although, the few times
> that people did try and take my life, coincidences occured, and I stepped
> right through their very real traps and lived.
There aren't a whole lot of sheer coincidences in those born with the
subtle gift.
The true magician is born and not made, so said Albertus Magnus.
On the other hand I sometimes think of it like singing. Most people
can carry a tune or appreciate their own shower voices. That includes
me, since performance music is one area that I was totally denied any
gift in. But in order to be the real deal and do it well enough for
other people ... well there is a complicated medley of gift,
opportunity, background, and training to bring to full fruitition that
original gift... no matter how natural it may be for people to just
sing.
> ... Those are the things that are worth fighting for, to me. That is why
> I have to still give a fuck. No risk, no gain.
>
<chuckle> and what is worth caring about? Remind me.
> > It's easier than trying to deal with all the two-faces, asseholes,
> > idiots, and bullies.
>
> ... Hide out in your corner of the
> world and master it, without ever dealing with the outside. I wouldn't say
> it is a bad thing to do, just a different choice than I have made.
>
This society makes it particularly tough in many many subtle ways to
make it if you're magic(k)ally inclined ... it starts literally in the
cradle and follows you throughout your life. Other cultures handle it
much differently. Including the American culture scarely a century
ago.
> Eliminate the alpha, and the betas will scatter.
As an outsider without a patron or a way to establish credibility
through cooperative means or a reputation so that people would stay
out of my 'territory' and keep their hands off my people ... 'dueling'
was the only way. Of course too much of that kind of thing leaves bad
blood, and once you gain the wrong kind of rep every two-bit with a
chip on their shoulders wants a peice of you. Glad I'm mostly past
that, though it cost me quite a few scars some physical and some
spiritual.
> Although one of my
> self-proclaimed "left-hander" friends believes that humans are one of the
> few animals that can have multiple alphas in a pack, seen commonly in tribal
> situations by the existence of both a tribal leader and a shaman. Both have
> authority, but at times both may supercede the other. I don't know enough
> about tribal behaviors to make a judgement on the subject though.
>
It has to do with role specialization. Once upon a time, the social,
military, religious, and magical aspects of leadership were pretty
much combined. In other species any given adult can perform almost any
of the roles needed for the species (for their gender at least). Today
we see these four aspects and others parceled out because human
behavior is too complex for every local hierarchy alpha in order to
express them.
> I don't like the idea of blind faith much either. Sometimes I'm willing to
> accept a situation for a time, but I always reserve the right to examine the
> conditions and consequences at will.
>
A good attitude. The problem with an immortal soul among other things
is that it may not understand the human concepts of opportunity cost,
limited time horizon, and mortality. That lesson it may have you
toiling over for a decade in drudgery may not be your idea of the best
way to go about things ... for more than merely selfish reasons.
>
> Trust is an issue that requires a very delicate balance between rational
> consideration of the risks and willingness to believe that there may be
> worthwhile rewards. My deity expects me to smart off to her, though... hehe
>
Must be nice. It's too easy to take for granted that any anomalous
reality agent has anthropomorphic personality and cognitive trends.
Some don't care if you smart off ... because it's literally gibberish
to them. No more than a dog yapping. If I have an issue, it's
necessary to pose it in their paradigm which is usually xenomorphic.
> I would very much like to start learning from a teacher, but I have no
> desire to rush ahead where angels fear to tread. Waiting for my intuition
> has gotten me this far, and I think it is a good way to continue.
>
You might have to wait a while. Things are in quite a disarray. Allot
of adepts are packing it in or hunkering down. Some are leaving 'town'
and looking for new digs. This is a time of chaos and transition. With
their superior foresight allot of adepts are relocating or preparing
serious contingency plans while the overall culture clunks along
obliviously.
There is also the problem of 'chicken hawks'. They never stop looking.
It's odd that one of the most saddest aspects of human nature should
continue to propagate itself at such levels. It just goes to show I
guess that power and wisdom do not equate with altruism or decency.
>
> Yea, I've met a couple of local magi, but seeing as this area is *very*
> Christian Fundamentalist oriented, we can't talk too loudly anywhere. That
> makes it tough, and besides that most of them are old and don't practice
> anymore, at least to all outward appearances.
>
What general area of the US is that if you don't mind me asking? I'm
harking right now from central USA, breadbasket, and western edge of
Midwest.
I didn't grow up where I am ... but I grew up with a buncha Xtian
Fundies in a culturally similar place ... if you replace the Baptists
here with Calvinists. Some of the nicest people I ever met. Their
conservative bit on social issues was generally more bark than bite.
They tolerated and even welcomed the oddball oriental magi type
dropped in their laps with open arms. Whenever something occult comes
up, they just politely dropped the subject.
> > Speaking of Adepti extant, you heard of Sheikh Gilani?
>
> Somebody on Yahoo groups mentioned that, but I've not been getting my news
> lately, so I'm still in the dark on that one.
>
> --
> Casey Sheldon
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/13/60II/main503644.shtml
Read it all the way through so it will make sense. If you watched the
broadcast (as I did) it would become clear that the 'gin beings'
referred to is a bad CBS phonetization of what should be rendered
'jinn beings' ala 1001 Arabian Nights usage.
They treat things quite differently over there in the Middle-east.
Superficially magic(k) is outlawed and not openly discussed. Sorcercy
is still actively punished in Saudi Arabia by beheading in the town
square. The way it really works is that magic(k) is a highly socially
regulated guild monopoly. If you're into it you get recruited into
their religious system and become an approved user. Sorcery
effectively refers to individuals who operate outside that guild
monopoly, ostensibly for their own private benefit. They consider the
issue of such serious merit and danger to the public welfare that
private unauthorized usage of magic(k) is punished by the death
penalty.
It's not often that outsiders get a peek into this very secret, but
quite seriously taken part of their culture. It's not often that an
adept surfaces in such a public way by becoming entangled openly in
matters of geopolitical consequence. He's by far the norm there btw,
rather than the exception.
As an African medicine manfrom Africa (where he'd been
trained/initiated into a centuries old cultural trad) told me
magicians in many cultures actively interfered and conflicted over
military and political issues.
This seems to be pretty much the rule of thumb everywhere to some
degree, except the States-side pretty much. Here the whole thing is
considered a snide joke. Even among many would-be magicians. Can't
take that magic(k) might actually work enough to be a threat
seriously, or be worth dying over.
Elsewhere even where they won't kill over religion, in many places
they will without compunction kill over local magic(k)al monopolies.
nguyen
nguyen
> > I'm a man Lisa. I want what men want. I want to get laid as often as
> > possible, status, and money.
>
> Yeah, I believe you.
>
<grin> You better believe it honey. My only problem is that I care
what happens to others. If I didn't have that, I'd be all set. This
connects with what I write at the end of this post.
> > Not far let me tell you.
>
> Yes, I think you're right.
>
> But it may get you the association of those for whom these
> things matter, you know? A life in which you are eventually
> surrounded mostly by these people.
>
> And *that* is worth something IMHO.
>
Yes, that would be worth allot. More than all the gold and diamonds
and low strike price stock options and cold corporate titles put
together. If I had it.
Which I don't. Love or money is an easier choice, if you actually are
loved.
Speaking unconventional if honest, and honesty is usually
unconventional, usually get's me sidelined or passed over ... and
disrespected as well. It's been more like 'damned if you do or damned
if you don't' so far.
> There are limits to what humans can take, yes.
>
> I sure as hell know that. I get angry as hell.
>
That's why I spoke about this. I thought you would understand where I
was coming from, how someone could do the right thing and still get
sick of all the trouble it brings them.
> > You read up on the Pearl / Sheik Gilani bit in the news Lisa?
>
> No... what happened? I don't read the news regularly..
>
> Lisa
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/13/60II/main503644.shtml
I also posted some commentary about it to Casey Sheldon on the same
thread as this post. Note that in the broadcast, 'gin beings' is
pronounced 'jinn beings'.
Here magic(k) is a joke. In other places, people die over it including
recently one jewish American journalist in Pakistan. That much power
brings out all the worst in people ... power always does ... and with
the high degree of ability to operate without social constraints
created by magic(k)and the ability to use it in secrecy without
accountability... the temptation to use one's power toward nefarious
ends and to rationalize them to yourself becomes all the greater.
Why did Mr. Pearl die? He died while trying to reach this man, Sheik
Gilani. Not any other journalist, not at any other time even though
he'd been there for two years for WSJ, and not because he took stupid
chances ... he was an experienced, intelligent, and cautious
professional according to colleague reports.
He get's periphially involved with an adept and adept culture and
-boom- he's dead. Looks superficially like a coincidence with the
Pakistani police and infamous ISS security unable despite completely
brutal tactics to get to the bottom of the conspiracy. But gee,
doesn't this kind of thing always go that way? I wish I could say that
kind of thing is an exception in adept culture. The only exception
about it is that it is getting out to the public.
I don't think Gilani tried to kill Pearl. I think his speaking out
about it, which is highly unususual in his culture, is a kind of
apology. But Gilani isn't the only adept over there, and others are
notably more twitchy with the trigger finger.
nguyen
Casey Sheldon
> other people ... well there is a complicated medley of gift,
> opportunity, background, and training to bring to full fruitition that
> original gift... no matter how natural it may be for people to just
> sing.
I would agree with you here strongly. I started singing duets with my mom in
church at 6 or 7 years old. I wasn't very good at that point, but as I kept
practicing and working, my voice became disciplined to do whatever I asked
of it. I eventually sang a couple of solos in high school (ironically, I did
"Judas" from Jesus Christ Superstar...), but haven't really done anything of
that sort in about 6 years. Now I can sing to the radio, and occasionally I
hear someone say, "Oh you sing well." But it isn't the same as the applause
of a crowd.
> > ... Those are the things that are worth fighting for, to me. That is why
> > I have to still give a fuck. No risk, no gain.
>
> <chuckle> and what is worth caring about? Remind me.
For me, it is my children. One of them is about 6 and he's getting
interested in Christianity. Because I've finally gotten to the point where I
can see what the symbols and signs are pointing to, I can teach him
Christianity just as easily as I could teach him about the Tarot, and still
keep in mind how different parts of the religion will manifest
characteristics in him. Personally, I don't like Christianity as my own
path, but if it works for him, then there is nothing I want more than for
him to pursue whatever religion or spirituality that makes him happy.
> This society makes it particularly tough in many many subtle ways to
> make it if you're magic(k)ally inclined ... it starts literally in the
> cradle and follows you throughout your life. Other cultures handle it
> much differently. Including the American culture scarely a century
> ago.
My girlfriend and I have had people come up to our house and make their
little crosses on the walls, because they assume we are "evil witches."
That's one element of hispanic culture (at least around here) that is very
prevalent, but usually gets swept under the rugs. On the other hand, I've
also had practioners of santeria invite me to sit with them next to their
altars and shoot the breeze about anything magickal, just because I read
Tarot for them. But for the most part, even the Christians who I know have
esoteric background steer clear of me. The little kids I mentioned above are
pretty much representative of most of the locals.
>'dueling'
> was the only way. Of course too much of that kind of thing leaves bad
> blood, and once you gain the wrong kind of rep every two-bit with a
> chip on their shoulders wants a peice of you. Glad I'm mostly past
> that, though it cost me quite a few scars some physical and some
> spiritual.
I'm learning to take a licking. Every once and awhile someone comes along
and knocks me for a loop, but for the most part I try to challenge people
that seem to be at a fairly similar level of ability, so that I'm not
totally out-classed.
> It has to do with role specialization.
Heinlein had a quote about role specialization. Let me look that one up...
can't seem to find it.
> That lesson it may have you
> toiling over for a decade in drudgery may not be your idea of the best
> way to go about things ... for more than merely selfish reasons.
Yea, I fight with my HGA, too. I was raised around computers, and to me, it
seems that just giving the HGA a goal without defining other requirements
that will effect when and how the goal will be achieved, is, well, asking
for trouble (a bit like praying for patience...).
> Must be nice. It's too easy to take for granted that any anomalous
> reality agent has anthropomorphic personality and cognitive trends.
> Some don't care if you smart off ... because it's literally gibberish
> to them. No more than a dog yapping. If I have an issue, it's
> necessary to pose it in their paradigm which is usually xenomorphic.
The ability to question Her and fight for my own opinions is one of my
lessons right now. That's part of the reason I'm here on this NG. I see the
anthropomorphisation of my Deity as my interface with Her, which is not
necessarily accurate in its portrayal of Her inner characteristics as much
as it is of my own.
> You might have to wait a while. Things are in quite a disarray. Allot
> of adepts are packing it in or hunkering down. Some are leaving 'town'
> and looking for new digs. This is a time of chaos and transition. With
> their superior foresight allot of adepts are relocating or preparing
> serious contingency plans while the overall culture clunks along
> obliviously.
I'm in touch with a few Hermetics. One is a Thelemite, and the other is a
Hermetic Mage hiding as an Orthodox Jew. My intuition tells me that the
latter is probably the better choice.
> There is also the problem of 'chicken hawks'. They never stop looking.
> It's odd that one of the most saddest aspects of human nature should
> continue to propagate itself at such levels. It just goes to show I
> guess that power and wisdom do not equate with altruism or decency.
One of the great things about having been involved with the drug culture and
having been a nice guy is that I could have a fake drivers license and be
most of the way to Canada before tomorrow if I needed to.
> What general area of the US is that if you don't mind me asking? I'm
> harking right now from central USA, breadbasket, and western edge of
> Midwest.
Central Cali. Fucked up agricultural right-wing hell-hole.
> I didn't grow up where I am ... but I grew up with a buncha Xtian
> Fundies in a culturally similar place ... if you replace the Baptists
> here with Calvinists. Some of the nicest people I ever met. Their
> conservative bit on social issues was generally more bark than bite.
> They tolerated and even welcomed the oddball oriental magi type
> dropped in their laps with open arms. Whenever something occult comes
> up, they just politely dropped the subject.
Must be nice... ;-)
> Read it all the way through so it will make sense. If you watched the
> broadcast (as I did) it would become clear that the 'gin beings'
> referred to is a bad CBS phonetization of what should be rendered
> 'jinn beings' ala 1001 Arabian Nights usage.
Yea, that popped out at me.
> Elsewhere even where they won't kill over religion, in many places
> they will without compunction kill over local magic(k)al monopolies.
Heinlein also wrote a story called Magic, Inc. that attempts to deal with
just this subject. Very well written.
nguyen
> > <chuckle> and what is worth caring about? Remind me.
>
> For me, it is my children. One of them is about 6 and he's getting
> interested in Christianity. Because I've finally gotten to the point where I
> can see what the symbols and signs are pointing to, I can teach him
> Christianity just as easily as I could teach him about the Tarot, and still
> keep in mind how different parts of the religion will manifest
> characteristics in him. Personally, I don't like Christianity as my own
> path, but if it works for him, then there is nothing I want more than for
> him to pursue whatever religion or spirituality that makes him happy.
>
Yeah, kids are important. Thanks for reminding me.
It's always the bueracratic, dogmatic, and socio-economic issues of
having a hierarchial religious establishment you know. It wouldn't
matter if it was Islam, Buddhism, or Jainism. It becomes about the
money, prestige, the social influence. If neopaganism hadn't organized
along decentralized lines, same thing would have happened to it. Look
at the OTO legitimacy battles or as someone pointed out AMORC.
>
> My girlfriend and I have had people come up to our house and make their
> little crosses on the walls, because they assume we are "evil witches."
> That's one element of hispanic culture (at least around here) that is very
> prevalent, but usually gets swept under the rugs. On the other hand, I've
> also had practioners of santeria invite me to sit with them next to their
> altars and shoot the breeze about anything magickal, just because I read
> Tarot for them. But for the most part, even the Christians who I know have
> esoteric background steer clear of me. The little kids I mentioned above are
> pretty much representative of most of the locals.
>
That's interesting. I've worked with Hispanics or Caribbean-types
before, but I've never lived for an extended period of time in their
neighborhoods. So they think you're Brujo/Bruja Negra and not Blanca?
Yes, most cultures have these sorts of things as an important part of
their society ... even the Europeans have more than what is here in
the predominant white culture of the States. That's been changing a
bit since the wicca and newagers started running around ... but
they've got quite a ways to go before catching up.
On the other hand, as you point out this belief is not always a
positive thing. There is a great deal of suspiscion and
misunderstanding that comes along with the recognition of existence of
the unseen arts... precisely because normal people can't tell when
it's really happening or not.
Frankly, I'd rather operate among disbelievers. It gives one more free
rein. This is probably another reason why many of the adepts here have
not spoken out ... don't spoil a good thing.
In a culture that actually believes in magic(k) things can get quite a
bit trickier for a practioner. And also it kind of dilutes the
reputation of the art with dime-a-dozen fly-by-night sorcerer's
offering petty cures.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/evergreen.hts/travel/mexico/741646
>
> I'm learning to take a licking. Every once and awhile someone comes along
> and knocks me for a loop, but for the most part I try to challenge people
> that seem to be at a fairly similar level of ability, so that I'm not
> totally out-classed.
>
A good policy. A better one is to avoid such confrontations... but
this is difficult when other magicians can be belligerant and paranoid
or outright predatory or parasitical. I don't let a student out on
their own until they've proven themselves in a full-scale 'duel' with
an outsider. If things were different, I wouldn't do it. But there
never seems a shortage of bullies, yahoo cowboy spellslingers, or
chickenhawks that swoop down on the student anyway regardless of how
well you teach them to hide their tracks. Sooner or later, as a
beginner they make a mistake and show themselves ... and then someone
or something decides to see if they'd make a nice snack or target
practice or something.
By beginner I mean a beginner in the adept culture. Being a stock
small-time or private practice magician is a much quieter situation.
Once you step into that adept culture though ... you start all over
again no matter how much you think you know and say goodbye to
blissful ignorance and the rule of law.
You'll get freaky stuff happening to you like strangers walking up to
you, talking about personal stuff nobody else should know, and it
won't be nice stuff either many times ... it'll be recruitment
attempts, politics, manipulation, power plays, trying to deal with you
for what they want. Then they'll just walk off and disappear.
Most of my students freak the first time it happens to them. It's an
in your face encounter that says what you do in your living room
privately has been noticed by someone else. It's a blatant in your
face realization that there are powerful bastards out there that play
puppet master with peoples' lives all the time behind the scenes...
and *you* have just come to their personal attention.
Of course, the first time someone tried to do that to me I just nuked
them. I don't like getting threatened. Then I put down every person
and thing they sent out after me in retaliation. At some point, they
just realized that I was strong enough to go toe to toe with them and
they stopped. There's a polite if cold detente' now. That's why they
don't bother sending messages to me anymore, directly anyhow.
But every student I've ever had eventually runs into the same damned
problem. You'd think that people could just live and let live!
But there's an invisible line in the sand. You get far enough and
suddenly you become "fair game" for personal attention. And nobody
tells you the rules either ... allot of people get knocked out
permanently and eliminated because they don't know what the hell hit
them. They got a nice life just privately developing and next thing
you know they get an offer out of *nowhere* and maybe they say no ...
and next thing you know they get accidentally dead in a freak
coincidental type accident. I even know a case or two where they
tracked down people who rabbitted and finished them.
Investigating after the case that is... if I'd been on the scene at
the time I'd have stepped in. Everyone ought to have a fricking
choice. Sometimes I get so sick of the coercion and mind-fuck games
and the blatant "join us or die" crap.
If you think about it though... makes perfect sense. Human nature.
Think about unions. Most magic(k)al guild systems in the world work
this way. The only difference here in America is that there isn't one
guild that has a social monopoly, instead you got a buncha competing
trads and adept houses.
Of course, there really are genuinely nice magi houses out there. The
problem is that they don't go looking for you because they mind their
own business. It's the ones that have got some agenda that are most
motivated to scour the earth. So it's not the nice ones that you end
up having in your face.
Budding adepts are valuable and rare commodities... few magicians even
quite competent ones get that far, and while some will wine and dine
you to try to recruit you ... others will take a more stick and leash
rather than carrot approach.
> Heinlein had a quote about role specialization. Let me look that one up...
> can't seem to find it.
>
<chuckle> ants.
>
> Yea, I fight with my HGA, too. I was raised around computers, and to me, it
> seems that just giving the HGA a goal without defining other requirements
> that will effect when and how the goal will be achieved, is, well, asking
> for trouble (a bit like praying for patience...).
>
Bill Heidrick has a nice discussion about this in his Abramelin
Ramble. He talks about 'house-braking' the angel. It isn't from around
here. It doesn't get human limitations or frustrations. It's the con
side of being infinite and immortal. You have to translate stuff into
terms it can understand. Like how blasting out peices of your clothing
at inappropriate times or reaching out and misdirecting your
correspondence isn't the way for it to get your attention or force you
to go along with its plan.
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/abramel.htm
>
> The ability to question Her and fight for my own opinions is one of my
> lessons right now. That's part of the reason I'm here on this NG. I see the
> anthropomorphisation of my Deity as my interface with Her, which is not
> necessarily accurate in its portrayal of Her inner characteristics as much
> as it is of my own.
>
Yes, persona just means masque afterall.
> I'm in touch with a few Hermetics. One is a Thelemite, and the other is a
> Hermetic Mage hiding as an Orthodox Jew. My intuition tells me that the
> latter is probably the better choice.
>
That chaos is probably to your advantage right now. You can mature and
come to age in your own time instead of being pressed to make a choice
right away. You've been keeping a quiet profile which is good. That
will buy you even more time.
>
> One of the great things about having been involved with the drug culture and
> having been a nice guy is that I could have a fake drivers license and be
> most of the way to Canada before tomorrow if I needed to.
>
Thought you had kids and an SO? There's this great line from the movie
'Heat'. Never have anything in your life that you can't walk away from
in thirty seconds flat, when you sense the heat coming around the
corner.
Now that's a cold cold way to live. But it's saved my life several
times. Even a strong, well trained, and ruthless adept can't afford to
be trapped, outnumbered, etc. At the very least you've got to be able
to go to ground or retreat and regroup for a counter-assault. Don't
let the enemy dictate the terms of engagement.
On the other hand, even I got tired of that kind of life. I never
intended to teach others ... and cause the way I learned myself I'm
not terribly good at it. I tend to take people in too fast, because I
learned by myself as a natural. People's acceptance of
trans-conventional reality has to be nurtured slowly. It can take
several months to transition just the first step... otherwise you get
paradigmic dissonance and reality rejection factor.
Too much for them, the full revelation of the nature of the world and
how it really works behind the scenes ... shorts them out. There
really is something to be said for blissful ignorance.
But you get lonely, living that lifestyle, not getting too close to
others because you see them get taken down because of you ... because
someone is trying to get to you through them.
So I through trial and error did manage to elevate four others to
adepthood. That was more than enough in a lifetime for me of teaching.
We and some others form a core cadre of about half a dozen people in a
small adept/magi house in the midwest. Then there's all the consorts,
proteges, allies, dependents, and such too around that core.
It's nice to have a 'family', to be able to put down roots, to have
others to back you up or independently verify what you've done ... to
provide enough security so that you don't have to live like you have
to be able to walk away from it all at the drop of a hat. I don't do
any regular teaching any more. Passed that onto the next generation. I
find it better to just work with people on advanced magc(k)s after
they get to questor/journeyman. No more beginners/prentices for me!
It's hard on people anyway you go. If you're inexperienced with
magic(k), then you've got to work all the harder in a shorter amount
of time to catch up and take it all in. If you are an experienced
magician you've got allot of well formed ideas about the limits or
rules of magic(k). These may have been true in your experience, but
when you get to the big times you just throw them out because with
high voltage magic(k) allot of those rules change. And some people
can't hack that. They can't handle that their insights and ideas may
have been valid for the domain that they lived in ... but need to be
radically expanded or altered to fit the bigger picture. And a trained
magician may have more ingrained ideas about what is or is not
possible with magic(k) than a beginner that might interfere with
his/her adepthood elevation.
On the other hand, your previous base doesn't vanish. It counts, and
accellerates your progress. If you can get over your ideas about the
limits on them.
> Central Cali. Fucked up agricultural right-wing hell-hole.
>
<chuckle>
Move then.
> > They tolerated and even welcomed the oddball oriental magi type
> > dropped in their laps with open arms. Whenever something occult comes
> > up, they just politely dropped the subject.
>
> Must be nice... ;-)
>
:-P
Their acceptance of me have been more to do with me than how they
treated magicians in general. You're talking about people in my
hometown that banned Harry Potter from the library shelves, and set up
an undercover police sting operation to "get" the one (known) gay
teacher in the school system.
I was raised among people who had no idea what real magic(k) was...
and never talked about it. My parents, stolid Vietnamese that they
were, never ever talked about it directly. Nonetheless from an early
age I developed certain abilities that other people ... including
people with no previous idea of the occult identified. Later I would
learn these as traditional folk/tribal witch abilities.
Like the 'evil eye', 'jinxing/hexing', enchanter's tongue,
fore-telling, pyro-poltergeitism (when I got upset), sensitivity to
unseen forces, and necromancy. Much later I would learn that these
were all classical witch type abilities that were rampant more or less
in my country of origin ... though I did have them in spades for some
reason.
On the other hand, I hate to say it but deep down inside I'm a Nice
Guy. If you want to psychoanalyze me, I'm the eager sincere kid who
wanted to fit in, have lots of friends, and be liked ... while going
the extra mile for the other guy.
Because I'd lived there a long time, people mostly knew about my
tendencies. It's hard to hide them over a long period of time... even
disbelievers would make uneasy jokes about accidents that happened
around me or refuse to meet my eyes. So it's one thing to ban Harry
Potter from their shelves (by that time the town had gotten much more
liberal scarey enough), or target the gay teacher at the high school,
but when they were looking into the sincere helpful nice eyes of a
young man eager to fit in ... balancing that against pissing off
someone who when they got upset really bad things tended to happen ...
well it's like the joke about the 800 lb gorilla. Where does the 800
lb gorilla sit? Anywhere it wants.
This is all in retrospect. At the time, I really didn't know what was
going on except that I wanted to please others and fit in. In
retrospect, it was clear however ardent their beliefs about sorcery
when faced with the real thing even in blatant outward form... they
choose to gloss it over rather than confront it. And I never took
advantage of it, because I did want to just be normal and fit in.
I mean, I can't turn people into newts. But if someone could turn
someone into newts, would you want to try to burn them as a witch?
Same principle. If someone really has the evil eye, are you going to
throw a fit and get them real upset?
This tension in my character has caused me untold trouble though. When
people first meet me, they tend to think I'm a nice helpful young man.
The awful thing is that really is who I am. but others take that as
weakness or ineffectualness for some reason. That leds them to pick on
me, that and my smart mouth, and then ... then I have to kick some
ass. I am Vietnamese afterall.
> > Read it all the way through so it will make sense. If you watched the
> > broadcast (as I did) it would become clear that the 'gin beings'
> > referred to is a bad CBS phonetization of what should be rendered
> > 'jinn beings' ala 1001 Arabian Nights usage.
>
> Yea, that popped out at me.
>
There is a whole "secret" history and order to the world. The only
reason why it's secret though is that *people don't want to know*.
That's why they don't talk about it, even in cultures where they take
magic(k) seriously. As long as it personally doesn't effect them, they
would rather not have to deal with it personally ... though directly
and indirectly it has almost certain affected them or somebody they
know.
*People don't want to know*. People don't want to believe. That's the
beautiful thing. I can stand here and say the truth *outloud* and
nobody will pay any attention. They'll avert their attention,
rationalize, think I'm an eccentric nut, think I'm a bad person,
whatever they have to do ... to keep on believing that their safe
little world is all there is.
I guess that's the other reason why it's the occult. People who know
usually just don't bother saying anything. Because mostly if you know,
you can figure it out on your own. If you can't quick enough and get
eliminated, tough luck. And why bother trying? People aren't going to
believe you anyway.
Even here on alt.magick.
To paraphrase Richard Sprigg, the animals stay in the barn because
it's warmer than being outside in the cold.
and to be truthful, I agree for different reasons. I think people
should have their warm cozy personal lives and not have to deal with
this crap. I don't like dealing with this crap. For me, it's worth
fighting so that they don't have to.
>
> > Elsewhere even where they won't kill over religion, in many places
> > they will without compunction kill over local magic(k)al monopolies.
>
> Heinlein also wrote a story called Magic, Inc. that attempts to deal with
> just this subject. Very well written.
>
> --
> Casey Sheldon
Really? To be honest, haven't read allot of Heinlein. Should look it
up.
The game is rigged Casey. Just remember that and watch your back.
Anything I can do to help you, please let me know no matter how this
thread plays out.
Just think though, it's completely reasonable ... add power to lack of
accountability to human nature plus social blindspot and presto!
When I was younger and more naive, I busted my butt hoping and
yearning for to blast out of my po-dunk rural hometown ... and join a
greater wiser enlightened magic(k)al community where I could finally
find 'where I belonged'.
Instead I landed in something crossed between Illuminati conspiracy
politics and the Wild Wild West as a lonely outsider that had to make
his way without any help and in much peril.
I promised myself then that if I could, I would make sure that nobody
else had to go through that hell by themselves and without at least
knowing the "rules".
nguyen
Casey Sheldon
> having a hierarchial religious establishment you know. It wouldn't
> matter if it was Islam, Buddhism, or Jainism. It becomes about the
> money, prestige, the social influence. If neopaganism hadn't organized
> along decentralized lines, same thing would have happened to it. Look
> at the OTO legitimacy battles or as someone pointed out AMORC.
I abhor such things, but that's not to say that money, prestige, and social
influence aren't positive things to have, but rather that the lengths that
people will go to, in order to obtain such things, are quite disgusting.
> That's interesting. I've worked with Hispanics or Caribbean-types
> before, but I've never lived for an extended period of time in their
> neighborhoods. So they think you're Brujo/Bruja Negra and not Blanca?
Yea, they automatically assume anybody who isn't specifically for them is
against them. Not a bad policy in light of small town politics.
> Frankly, I'd rather operate among disbelievers. It gives one more free
> rein. This is probably another reason why many of the adepts here have
> not spoken out ... don't spoil a good thing.
That is a reason to stick with the Rule of Silence. I find that, as you
mention later in the post, it is nearly impossible to get people in this
region to actually hear me when I talk too far above their heads. They
literally will do anything to tune me out, up to and including forgetting
that I've said anything at all. I like that, and if everybody knows, that
goes away.
> By beginner I mean a beginner in the adept culture. Being a stock
> small-time or private practice magician is a much quieter situation.
> Once you step into that adept culture though ... you start all over
> again no matter how much you think you know and say goodbye to
> blissful ignorance and the rule of law.
One of my friends has carefully made sure that he doesn't get recognised.
He's probably at the same level I am, but he hides a lot more. I'd rather
make friends while the sun is shining than hide in the dark, but to each his
own.
> You'll get freaky stuff happening to you like strangers walking up to
> you, talking about personal stuff nobody else should know, and it
> won't be nice stuff either many times ... it'll be recruitment
> attempts, politics, manipulation, power plays, trying to deal with you
> for what they want. Then they'll just walk off and disappear.
Ah, yes, this has already begun, in some areas. I enjoy using my anger to
'nuke' (as you put it) people that bug me in this way, though. As a
Soundgarden song once said, "With an ounce of pain, I wield a ton of rage."
A little outrage can go a long way... hehe.
> If you think about it though... makes perfect sense. Human nature.
> Think about unions. Most magic(k)al guild systems in the world work
> this way. The only difference here in America is that there isn't one
> guild that has a social monopoly, instead you got a buncha competing
> trads and adept houses.
Like the Israeli political parties, although they are finding an
equilibrium, it seems.
> Bill Heidrick has a nice discussion about this in his Abramelin
> Ramble. He talks about 'house-braking' the angel. It isn't from around
> here. It doesn't get human limitations or frustrations. It's the con
> side of being infinite and immortal. You have to translate stuff into
> terms it can understand. Like how blasting out peices of your clothing
> at inappropriate times or reaching out and misdirecting your
> correspondence isn't the way for it to get your attention or force you
> to go along with its plan.
This has taken a lot of hard work on my part. My angel used to send me into
trance states in the middle of conversations, and distract me when I needed
pay attention the most. In some ways it still does, but not to the same
degree. Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
necessary. Thanks for the link BTW.
> > I'm in touch with a few Hermetics. One is a Thelemite, and the other is
a
> > Hermetic Mage hiding as an Orthodox Jew. My intuition tells me that the
> > latter is probably the better choice.
>
> That chaos is probably to your advantage right now. You can mature and
> come to age in your own time instead of being pressed to make a choice
> right away. You've been keeping a quiet profile which is good. That
> will buy you even more time.
Right now, I'm just enjoying studying the Sefer Yetsirah, and the Judaic
Kabbalah in general. The Aggadahs and the sheer amount of deep cultural
references that just resonate to me, having grown up reading the Bible
backwards and forwards, is just astonishing. It's because of the Judaic
Kabbalah that I don't curse the brainwashing Bible-thumpers. Now I see my
own existence as a curse upon them. They created something they couldn't
control, and now, my life is a testament to the fact that people will not be
controlled by churches and other institutions forever. At some point they
will open their eyes, and then they can make a choice based on knowledge,
preferences, and Spiritual Will. Until then, it's all marketing.
> > One of the great things about having been involved with the drug culture
and
> > having been a nice guy is that I could have a fake drivers license and
be
> > most of the way to Canada before tomorrow if I needed to.
> >
>
> Thought you had kids and an SO? There's this great line from the movie
> 'Heat'. Never have anything in your life that you can't walk away from
> in thirty seconds flat, when you sense the heat coming around the
> corner.
>
> But you get lonely, living that lifestyle, not getting too close to
> others because you see them get taken down because of you ... because
> someone is trying to get to you through them.
If I'm becoming a liability to them, then it's my job to make the decision
that they wouldn't be able to make. That way, no one has to play martyr, and
no one has to get hurt too badly.
> There is a whole "secret" history and order to the world. The only
> reason why it's secret though is that *people don't want to know*.
> That's why they don't talk about it, even in cultures where they take
> magic(k) seriously. As long as it personally doesn't effect them, they
> would rather not have to deal with it personally ... though directly
> and indirectly it has almost certain affected them or somebody they
> know.
>
> *People don't want to know*. People don't want to believe. That's the
> beautiful thing. I can stand here and say the truth *outloud* and
> nobody will pay any attention. They'll avert their attention,
> rationalize, think I'm an eccentric nut, think I'm a bad person,
> whatever they have to do ... to keep on believing that their safe
> little world is all there is.
>
> and to be truthful, I agree for different reasons. I think people
> should have their warm cozy personal lives and not have to deal with
> this crap. I don't like dealing with this crap. For me, it's worth
> fighting so that they don't have to.
Foucault's Pendulum, although hated by many, is essentially Eco's take on
adept culture. I've read it many times, and at least recognise the places
where I think Eco is full of shit.
> Really? To be honest, haven't read allot of Heinlein. Should look it
> up.
>
> The game is rigged Casey. Just remember that and watch your back.
> Anything I can do to help you, please let me know no matter how this
> thread plays out.
>
> Just think though, it's completely reasonable ... add power to lack of
> accountability to human nature plus social blindspot and presto!
That's the majority of the problem and the appeal. What's integrity, but
doing what you know to be right, while no one else is watching you do it.
> When I was younger and more naive, I busted my butt hoping and
> yearning for to blast out of my po-dunk rural hometown ... and join a
> greater wiser enlightened magic(k)al community where I could finally
> find 'where I belonged'.
I found local magickians to be a petty group of squabbling territory
squatters, and per the 'as above, so below' idea deduced that it would
probably be the same elsewhere. After I got on the 'Net and started really
seeing how people act, I found my hypothesis to be confirmed in that regard.
> I promised myself then that if I could, I would make sure that nobody
> else had to go through that hell by themselves and without at least
> knowing the "rules".
So, the rules are that there are no rules? All's fair in love, war, and
magick? Sounds simple enough... hehe... not really, but it sounded like a
movie line, so I thought I'd insert that there. Honestly I appreciate your
candor and your willingness to discuss these things. Most of the locals here
won't ever get past the magickian phase, and those that do often hide from
adepts. This kind of thing I've had to guess about from books, and whatnot.
Books hardly replace human experiences direct from the person.
--
Casey Sheldon
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually on sympathy, education, and social
ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
restrained by fear of punishment and hope of
reward after death."
- Albert Einstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> nguyen
Lisa Gardner
[...]
> > Bill Heidrick has a nice discussion about this in his Abramelin
> > Ramble. He talks about 'house-braking' the angel. It isn't from around
> > here. It doesn't get human limitations or frustrations. It's the con
> > side of being infinite and immortal. You have to translate stuff into
> > terms it can understand. Like how blasting out peices of your clothing
> > at inappropriate times or reaching out and misdirecting your
> > correspondence isn't the way for it to get your attention or force you
> > to go along with its plan.
Yeah, mine seemed to want *you* to be aware of its
insistant knocking, nguyen. that's why it called when it did.
> This has taken a lot of hard work on my part. My angel used to send me into
> trance states in the middle of conversations, and distract me when I needed
> pay attention the most. In some ways it still does, but not to the same
> degree.
Yeah, god has teeth.
I was reading a chapter in a book by carlos suares last
night - the book is called, 'the second coming of the
rabbi called reb yshwh' (IIRC). In this chapter in this
book suares said that (and this is paraphrased because
I cannot remember the exact wording of what was said)
'this thing that we call god seems to chose certain people
and attack them relentlessly. When this happens then you
know that what comes through the person is going to
change things'.
This was in a chapter in which he talked about the soul
and how one must try *not* to name it or constrain it, but
just let it *come through* one.
>Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
> necessary.
I think it does very much care but just... has big hands?
I dunno.
I have had dreams where I tried to touch something -
or tried to dance or something - and my dancing warped time
and space and *moved everything* to what seemed like
another 'line of reality' or something like this.
In one recent dream I had I remember that this being was near
me and I touched it - when I touched it, I hurt it do bad that I
killed it. I didn't mean to do this. I felt awful and held this being
close to me to revive it... I managed to revive it, but after it had
revived it was *something different completely from what it
had been* - it had turned into something like a lemur.
This was incredibly distressing for me.
Now, I had a psychotic breakdown in 1995. I have been through
so much shit since then. Through it all I have had the feeling that
god is there for me and does love me - and there is someone
there who is helping me. It just occurred to me while writing this
post, that it might have been my angel trying to touch me and reach
me that partially caused what happened to me back in 1995...
and the dreams like those above are his attempt to try to explain
to me what happened to me, and that he did not want to hurt me-
just to touch me and come into contact with me.
I've also had another dream in which I was flying and saw
this male being who was a 'cloud' 'aura' type thing like what
I used to see when I was a kid and had migraines... this
being was my mate, it seemed to me in the dream. He wanted
to be near me so much, but... even being as close as I was
to him (seeing him from a ways away in my dream) threatened
to literally *rip* the human being that I am into pieces. The
dream was lucid and I had to immediately wake myself from
the dream for fear that if I stayed in it around that being - my mate-
my humanness would be torn apart just by the pull of his
attraction to me.
>Thanks for the link BTW.
>
> > > I'm in touch with a few Hermetics. One is a Thelemite, and the other is
> a
> > > Hermetic Mage hiding as an Orthodox Jew. My intuition tells me that the
> > > latter is probably the better choice.
> >
> > That chaos is probably to your advantage right now. You can mature and
> > come to age in your own time instead of being pressed to make a choice
> > right away. You've been keeping a quiet profile which is good.
>>That
> > will buy you even more time.
>
> Right now, I'm just enjoying studying the Sefer Yetsirah, and the Judaic
> Kabbalah in general.
Glad to see you posting here though.
>The Aggadahs
The haggadah? Is this the same as what you are talking
about?
I figured out a while back that the haggadah was *incredibly
central* to the whole jewish religion - because *the escape from
slavery* - in a very deep sense - is *what that religion is all about*.
>and the sheer amount of deep cultural
> references that just resonate to me, having grown up reading the Bible
> backwards and forwards, is just astonishing. It's because of the Judaic
> Kabbalah that I don't curse the brainwashing Bible-thumpers. Now I see my
> own existence as a curse upon them. They created something they couldn't
> control, and now, my life is a testament to the fact that people will not be
> controlled by churches and other institutions forever.
Well, when moses went up to the mountain the people
started worshipping the golden calf - and if I recall correctly,
they even started believing that the calf was YHWH.
Or it may be that that was just my reading of it in the Old
Testament.
Many christians do the same these days IMHO. They are
essentially engaging in idol worship and mistaking an idol
for the real thing.
> At some point they
> will open their eyes, and then they can make a choice based on knowledge,
> preferences, and Spiritual Will. Until then, it's all marketing.
Marketing. I don't like marketing.
> > > One of the great things about having been involved with the drug culture
> and
> > > having been a nice guy is that I could have a fake drivers license and
> be
> > > most of the way to Canada before tomorrow if I needed to.
> > >
> >
> > Thought you had kids and an SO? There's this great line from the movie
> > 'Heat'. Never have anything in your life that you can't walk away from
> > in thirty seconds flat, when you sense the heat coming around the
> > corner.
Or learn how to move with it all very quickly. Live in a tent in
the desert and make the getaway carrying your unrisen bread
on your shoulders. Get while the getting is good. When god
gives you the sign, be ready to take off.
Where 'it all' means *those beings you love and care about*-
not your material goods.
> > But you get lonely, living that lifestyle, not getting too close to
> > others because you see them get taken down because of you ... because
> > someone is trying to get to you through them.
You can try to protect them.
> If I'm becoming a liability to them, then it's my job to make the decision
> that they wouldn't be able to make. That way, no one has to play martyr, and
> no one has to get hurt too badly.
If you yourself are powerful, than you may be able to help them
and protect them to an extent.
You can also try to get to the point where most of those
around you understand the struggle you are going through
and are strong themselves or at least know what is going
on. And you can support each other.
I think this is what a church or 'gathering' should be
ideally - but isn't really these days.
My 19 year old son knows quite a lot about the struggles
that I go through and I can talk with him about pretty
much anything.
He may have to go through the same sorts of struggles
himself one day. If he does he will be able to look at the
stones I have dropped along the way as a kind of a map...
and he will know a hell of a lot more than I did when all
of this shit started happening to me.
> > There is a whole "secret" history and order to the world. The only
> > reason why it's secret though is that *people don't want to know*.
> > That's why they don't talk about it, even in cultures where they take
> > magic(k) seriously. As long as it personally doesn't effect them, they
> > would rather not have to deal with it personally ... though directly
> > and indirectly it has almost certain affected them or somebody they
> > know.
> >
> > *People don't want to know*. People don't want to believe. That's the
> > beautiful thing. I can stand here and say the truth *outloud* and
> > nobody will pay any attention. They'll avert their attention,
> > rationalize, think I'm an eccentric nut, think I'm a bad person,
> > whatever they have to do ... to keep on believing that their safe
> > little world is all there is.
Yeah, but the people who understand, really understand.
> > and to be truthful, I agree for different reasons. I think people
> > should have their warm cozy personal lives and not have to deal with
> > this crap. I don't like dealing with this crap. For me, it's worth
> > fighting so that they don't have to.
>
> Foucault's Pendulum, although hated by many, is essentially Eco's take on
> adept culture. I've read it many times, and at least recognise the places
> where I think Eco is full of shit.
"Adept culture"? I don't really know what I think of such a thing.
I am not sure that those who are called 'adepts', aren't just
spiritual teenagers who haved learned some really cool psychic
hat tricks, many of them.
Of course, I may have a different understanding of the word
'adept' than you two have.
I don't know that I really care *too* very much about being able
to do magick of the sort that is going to work to manifest *my
own will only*. what is the necessity of doing such a thing -
is it only something 'cool', like being able to lift really
heavy weights, or have good toys, or what?
I could see it being something good if it were more like
painting, or a dance that expresses one's feelings and
touches other people, or something like this - but these
things aren't really motivated solely the need to *have one's
ego will done*, really - they are more like expressions of the
deep soul, in the best cases, IMHO.
I would not call myself an adept, but I would call myself someone
who is 'struggling in spirit'.
> > Really? To be honest, haven't read allot of Heinlein. Should look it
> > up.
> >
> > The game is rigged Casey. Just remember that and watch your back.
Like you once said nyugen (if I recall what you said correctly)
'the best don't even make it out of their cribs - they're killed
before they have a chance to grow up.'
Some are hidden away though, eh? hah... and I guess they
do their growing up later.
> > Anything I can do to help you, please let me know no matter how this
> > thread plays out.
> >
> > Just think though, it's completely reasonable ... add power to lack of
> > accountability to human nature plus social blindspot and presto!
>
> That's the majority of the problem and the appeal. What's integrity, but
> doing what you know to be right, while no one else is watching you do it.
I hope that eventually most of the people around me are people
like that.
Many are right now - those in my personal life.
> > When I was younger and more naive, I busted my butt hoping and
> > yearning for to blast out of my po-dunk rural hometown ... and join a
> > greater wiser enlightened magic(k)al community where I could finally
> > find 'where I belonged'.
>
> I found local magickians to be a petty group of squabbling territory
> squatters, and per the 'as above, so below' idea deduced that it would
> probably be the same elsewhere.
hah
>After I got on the 'Net and started really
> seeing how people act, I found my hypothesis to be confirmed in that regard.
>
> > I promised myself then that if I could, I would make sure that nobody
> > else had to go through that hell by themselves and without at least
> > knowing the "rules".
Well, you make it or you don't, I guess... if you are thrown in
the shit unawares.
> So, the rules are that there are no rules?
I think it is more like, 'examine closely the things that you have
been told are rules.'
>All's fair in love, war, and
> magick? Sounds simple enough... hehe... not really, but it sounded like a
> movie line, so I thought I'd insert that there. Honestly I appreciate your
> candor and your willingness to discuss these things. Most of the locals here
> won't ever get past the magickian phase, and those that do often hide from
> adepts. This kind of thing I've had to guess about from books, and whatnot.
> Books hardly replace human experiences direct from the person.
Interesting discussion, you two.
Lisa
nguyen
>
> I abhor such things, but that's not to say that money, prestige, and social
> influence aren't positive things to have, but rather that the lengths that
> people will go to, in order to obtain such things, are quite disgusting.
>
No they aren't bad things. Any more than a stick is a bad thing or an
agreement is a bad thing. It's the totality of the human experience
that decides whether these are good or bad things.
> > So they think you're Brujo/Bruja Negra and not Blanca?
>
> Yea, they automatically assume anybody who isn't specifically for them is
> against them. Not a bad policy in light of small town politics.
>
Well this is an important thing to remember, that their moral
conception of the world is pretty tribal. What's good is what is good
for "us". While it opens up certain avenues for advancement, it also
limits others. Not allot of magicians ever got too far beyond a
certain point being a small town pay-for-hire sorcerer. There's no
moral judgement there, just that if you're selling small time curses
or cures for $50 a pop you're going to be too busy hustling to pay the
bills to do allot of the serious non-paying kind of work (at least
directly non-paying) that really advances your abilities and
knowledge.
Same thing happens to small town lawyers. You do divorces, custody
cases, wills and testaments, DUI's, mostly instead of Constitutional
or corporate or federal law or something similarly high-powered that
would propel you to the "top".
It's just a lifestyle choice. Frankly, there are some days I *long* to
be a small-town sorcerer selling wart-cures and love-me-lust-me
fascinations. It can be a real nice life from what I've seen.
Guess the grass often seems greener on the other side of the fence.
Me, I never had a choice, ... da angel dragged me kicking and
screaming into it at an early age and for some reason many other
adepts would just *not* leave me alone.
>
> That is a reason to stick with the Rule of Silence. I find that, as you
> mention later in the post, it is nearly impossible to get people in this
> region to actually hear me when I talk too far above their heads. They
> literally will do anything to tune me out, up to and including forgetting
> that I've said anything at all. I like that, and if everybody knows, that
> goes away.
>
Just to let you know, the reason why I'm conducting this conversation
is that I was "encouraged" to by da higher self ... in no uncertain
terms. Most of the time, I don't see any point in speaking out either.
Sometimes I do it to thumb my nose at the "mainstream" adepts of
different trads ... flouting convention can be fun ... but this time
it's "business" or opus anyway.
So assuming that others will just tune us out ... let's get really
serious in this conversation. So far I've only discussed periphial
social context issues ... let's discuss if you will what *really*
makes an adept different from your average competent magician but but
who is satisfied with their progress in magic(k). It's too complex to
cover in even an extended thread, but I can outline some major points
for you. This is something that is rarely discussed openly.
>
> One of my friends has carefully made sure that he doesn't get recognised.
> He's probably at the same level I am, but he hides a lot more. I'd rather
> make friends while the sun is shining than hide in the dark, but to each his
> own.
>
It's not always that way. There are magi houses. Quite nice ones. I
always longed to belong to one like that. By the time I became aware
of them, it was too late to go back. I'd already (justifiably in many
cases) gotten too bad a rep. This is something you might want to think
about as you deal with others. After a certain point in my
development, none of the nice ones would have me ... or at least
weren't too enthusiastic about it ... so I eventually formed my own
cadre.
>
> Ah, yes, this has already begun, in some areas. I enjoy using my anger to
> 'nuke' (as you put it) people that bug me in this way, though. As a
> Soundgarden song once said, "With an ounce of pain, I wield a ton of rage."
> A little outrage can go a long way... hehe.
>
You bring up several important points. What separates an adept from
your average magician? The difference is on a continuum but several
things stand out.
1. Ambition in the art.
Let's face it, allot of magicians get to a certain point and they
get comfy. They have real power, but they have used it to establish a
very nice life for themselves. There's a point of diminishing returns
to Sepher Raziel, the stage of being a magician high or low. You put
more and more in, and less and less comes out. If you want to get
further you have to switch gears. Only the hump to the next "stage" of
development or beginning adepthood is steep, dangerous, often
uncharted, and extremely time/life consuming. So you need some reason,
some extreme motivator, some sort of pressing and persistent mental
focus to drive you to have the kind of discipline it takes to make it.
Faced with that, most people just back off. I often wish I had had
that choice myself.
2. Aggression.
Nobody is going to take you seriously unless you can kick ass. Some
magicians can make themselves into turtles, tough enough nuts to crack
that mostly other things are going to leave them alone and go in
search of easier pickings. Allot of magicians through moral
reservations or beliefs thus focus on building an overwhelming
"defense".
This makes them passive. In addition, a trained adept can crack
these defenses. They usually won't bother, but there are well-known
(in the adept community) techniques to break down and crack turtle
magicians... who are usually very surprised to see their vaunted
defenses come tumbling down.
3. Anger/Intent to harm.
People have noted that magic(k) is connected to emotion. However,
others have noticed that there is often a recoil effect sometimes
referred to as the three-fold law. This is created by several reasons,
all of which are avoided by adept training. One of them will be dealt
with here. In order to be able to act aggressively, you usually need
to raise some degree of anger or lethal / damaging intent. However if
you are thinking of yourself at the same time as you set your will in
motion ... and most anger is personally egocentric in origin. .. then
you will blast yourself by thinking about yourself.
The solution? Develop an impersonal anger or implacable ruthless
determination to harm others without any personal involvement. Well
for socialization reasons most people can't do this.
Some people frame this as a good vs bad, female vs male thing. The
thing I point out is that a) Righteous anger at objective injustice
works just as well and b) Many females are more capable of impersonal
ruthless pragmatic aggression than males. The reason why there aren't
allot of female adepts is mostly a socialization issue as I've found
out by helping female adepts elevate. Their motivations differ from
typical male ones and they need more social support and encouragement.
These are controversial things. Some people would like to see being an
adept as being a wise enlightened being who can miraculously solve
problems without violence. Well there is that too. But in order to get
far enough to get to that point, you have to be willing to kick ass.
It is only when you can kick ass, but choose to refrain ... that the
moral aspect of adepthood comes out. When you have power for harm and
advantage, but use it to guard and heal... then and only then do you
exemplify the social ideals of adepthood as being enlightened guides
and helpers to other people.
The temptation of power however prevents most people from doing that.
>
> This has taken a lot of hard work on my part. My angel used to send me into
> trance states in the middle of conversations, and distract me when I needed
> pay attention the most. In some ways it still does, but not to the same
> degree. Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
> necessary. Thanks for the link BTW.
>
The book usually considered the seminal text in this area is the
Sacred Magic(k) of Abramelin though it is found in different
traditions in different forms. However it should be remembered that
even the Sacred Magic(k) book states that KCHGA is the *Secondary*
mystery, and that there are the quabalah beyond that, and the radical
principles even beyond that.
Most people think that KCHGA is some apex point. Significant
development of KCHGA is required before you enter adepthood.
Myself, my own HGA guided me through explicit dreams, material
messages, and directing me on vision quests in order to experience a
developmental progression quite similar in principle to the Sacred
Magic(k)... and very similar in outline including the participation of
an innocent child. While some here have made inappropriate comments on
that act, I should point out that the child *stay* innocent puts a
severe limitation on any abuse that might occur. It was only after the
fact that I ran into Abramelin's book, opened it up and said "Holy
cow! Someone actually wrote this all down. Wish I'd had this when I
was ...".
The child isn't strictly necessary, but Abramelin says that it's an
"ace up the sleeve" to make the process easier. Since then I've
discovered and invented elevation methods that make it possible to
elevate with similar ease without the child through the Darshan route
... but you pay for it by having a greater burden of paradigmic
understanding necessary or you could go insane.
People also forget that the Sacred Magic(k) is composed of three
parts. This is instructive because it helps define what separates an
adept from a magician in the sense that a magician has had to go
through this *before* they can transition to adepthood.
First is the paradigm construction and dedication phase, and this
takes quite a long while. there is no short-cutting it. The book
recommends six months. I spent 18 months because I was developing a
metaparadigm to go with it. Bill Heidrick's text also clearly states
that 6 months might be too short. You just can't change your entire
view of the world in a day or a week. Not and not go mad.
Second is the KCHGA initiation phase. This is rather intense. It can
be shocking or slowly build. It's never a walk in the part. "Know
thyself" on roids basically.
Third is the integration of the new level of consciousness with
theurgy and thaumaturgy with a systematic formal system of active
magic(k). This is the squares stage. You don't have to use the
squares, though it is instructive to know how they work in principle
so that you can construct your own system.
Notice how Abramelin includes aggressive square options even as he
cautions one against their use for moral reasons. An adept has got to
be able to pack a wallop of a punch and technique to make it
sophisticated. What end they use that for, is up to them. But to make
it, they've got to have that to complete their abilities.
>
> Right now, I'm just enjoying studying the Sefer Yetsirah, and the Judaic
> Kabbalah in general. The Aggadahs and the sheer amount of deep cultural
> references that just resonate to me, having grown up reading the Bible
> backwards and forwards, is just astonishing. It's because of the Judaic
> Kabbalah that I don't curse the brainwashing Bible-thumpers. Now I see my
> own existence as a curse upon them.
I prefer the Aryeh Kaplan version of Sef. Yetz. Do you know the
summary of his life story? Very instructive.
> They created something they couldn't
> control, and now, my life is a testament to the fact that people will not be
> controlled by churches and other institutions forever. At some point they
> will open their eyes, and then they can make a choice based on knowledge,
> preferences, and Spiritual Will. Until then, it's all marketing.
>
Maybe. I'm sure it's true in your case. But in my opinion... people
don't want to know the truth. They want the trains to run on time,
their airflights not to be too crowded or late, the homeless and
impoverished to not attract too much attention, and their lives to be
not too much disturbed. That's why the world works the way it works.
The truth may be out there... but who is looking?
Most of them are good people. They are just trying to get by and don't
see ... perhaps don't want to see the otherside or the big picture.
> > Thought you had kids and an SO? There's this great line from the movie
> > 'Heat'. Never have anything in your life that you can't walk away from
> > in thirty seconds flat, when you sense the heat coming around the
> > corner.
> >
>
> If I'm becoming a liability to them, then it's my job to make the decision
> that they wouldn't be able to make. That way, no one has to play martyr, and
> no one has to get hurt too badly.
>
Once I had a person transfer into my school. He didn't know me, and
was kinda socially marginilized from the rest of the community. No way
he knew about my proclivities, since people didn't talk about that and
I was trying to fit in.
He was kinda friendly to me and we started spending a little time
together in school. One day he came up to me one day with an odd (and
haggard) look on his face. He tenatively told me that he'd had a dream
about me. A gaseous cloud had been circling my house trying to get in,
and a voice came out of it laughing 'Oh yes, I know him well' ...
referring to my name. It had then come over and swarmed him. A little
later he went through agonies in his dream, and had insects burst out
of his skin as he writhed.
He was a normal person to whom this sort of thing had never happened
before. I tried to help and befriend him, but he never really
recovered though he is still alive and kicking around. That wasn't the
worst or last such incident.
That sort of thing is what made me come out swinging. You can turtle
up as much as you want, but if somebody is pissed at you they just
start picking off those close to you.
Frankly, it made maturing hell since it played havok with my normal
socialization. Always had to be a little distant, a little careful,
not to get too close unless I was watching like a hawk or bad stuff
could happen to people I knew.
> Foucault's Pendulum, although hated by many, is essentially Eco's take on
> adept culture. I've read it many times, and at least recognise the places
> where I think Eco is full of shit.
>
Egads, the thing gave me a migraine. Couldn't even finish it, and I
can say that only of a handful of books. I know what you're talking
about. It was the style that got me not that it didn't have a point.
> > Just think though, it's completely reasonable ... add power to lack of
> > accountability to human nature plus social blindspot and presto!
>
> That's the majority of the problem and the appeal. What's integrity, but
> doing what you know to be right, while no one else is watching you do it.
>
That's right. That's the thing the theosophists and other mystical
reform movement have left out. Human nature, the temptation of power,
and the challenge that integrity presents to anyone. "Good guys" may
not wear white, but they generally are outnumbered by the simply
venial, decent but oblivious, and the outright advantage seekers.
>
> I found local magickians to be a petty group of squabbling territory
> squatters, and per the 'as above, so below' idea deduced that it would
> probably be the same elsewhere. After I got on the 'Net and started really
> seeing how people act, I found my hypothesis to be confirmed in that regard.
>
It really is discouraging isn't it? I find it so sometimes. Most of
life seems to be about using or being used and discarding what is no
longer expedient. I hate that!!! I can see why people do it however.
While I'm not companionship deprived, my 'score' could have easily
tripled if I was less scrupulous and more dishonest with women.
> > I promised myself then that if I could, I would make sure that nobody
> > else had to go through that hell by themselves and without at least
> > knowing the "rules".
>
> So, the rules are that there are no rules? All's fair in love, war, and
> magick? Sounds simple enough... hehe... not really, but it sounded like a
> movie line, so I thought I'd insert that there.
Yeah, sometimes I think that too. It's pretty crazy.
But there are rules, they are just unwritten. Like some of those guys
you gave a boot in the ass ... probably all of them so far ... are
just personal agents/messengers or acting on their own. Sooner or
later, you'll run into a house herald or the envoy of a powerful
adept. Or worse it will *be* a powerful adept. Nuke that guy and it'll
be like dropping a grand piano on your head. Only they look and act
pretty much exactly the same as anyone else contacting you on the
surface.
I suggest ... you find a way to tell the difference before you
continue your method of dealing with them. Only aggression combined
with good judgement and discretion / tact can succeed in guiding one
to survival as an adept.
That's what allot of the unwritten rules are like. It's a big mind
game, a game of perceptions and wits, where you bet your life and
fortune every time you act. You keep on going obliviously until you
figure it out or blunder and break a "rule" ... and then you're toast
usually without ever knowing what hit you.
> Honestly I appreciate your
> candor and your willingness to discuss these things. Most of the locals here
> won't ever get past the magickian phase, and those that do often hide from
> adepts. This kind of thing I've had to guess about from books, and whatnot.
> Books hardly replace human experiences direct from the person.
>
> --
> Casey Sheldon
Let's discuss paradigm ... and its role in making an actual adept..
part of what is the big deal about being an "adept"?
Be alerted, this sort of discussion is going to be considered possibly
controversial and allot of pundits could weigh in with their usual
remarks. I suggest you ignore for the time any such and keep the focus
just on directly related issues or it will get sidetracked and the
thread continuity killed by the method of censorship by distraction.
I've seen it happen many times.
I'm going to put something out there for you to chew on and respond in
any way you like. There is no "right" answer, though I'll be happy to
give you my scoop. Others will see it differently and agree or
disagree with various interpretations. The facts behind should be
pretty solid even if you disagree with my take on it and that's what
I'd like to focus on.
A magician works with a paradigm or paradigms (sometimes discussed in
the context of belief). An adept has to go metaparadigmic or
transparadigmic... and is liberated from the usual relationship and
functioning of belief in a person's mind.
nguyen
nguyen
>
> Yeah, mine seemed to want *you* to be aware of its
> insistant knocking, nguyen. that's why it called when it did.
>
Yes, it did for a reason. It recognized what I am if not who I am. And
of course, being what I am ... I understood what had happened to you
and why.
> Yeah, god has teeth.
>
[snip]
> This was in a chapter in which he talked about the soul
> and how one must try *not* to name it or constrain it, but
> just let it *come through* one.
>
You must be aware of a difference. Most of the time, the Eternal in
humans slumbers. When it dreams in someone, that is what we call a
genius, a prodigy, a dakini, a titan, a hero, each according to their
nature and the dream which is their destiny. When people talk about
their higher selves and letting it through, what they really mean is
receiving the dreams of the Eternal ... the Deo Imago ... within
themselves.
In the magus-born it is different. The Eternal does not just dream. It
Awakens. The cost and the result is ten, a hundred, a million times
more terrible and potent ... or wonderful and ecastatic. There are
degrees of awakening and few are wholly awake. Some awake and then
snooze or remain sleepy. The advice for receiving the gentle dreams of
the higher-self that non-magi receive will not be of much use beyond
the initial stages.
> >Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
> > necessary.
>
> I think it does very much care but just... has big hands?
>
> I dunno.
>
The infinite trying to manifest in the finite. All the oceans of the
earth in a mead drinking horn. An infinite agent of the cosmos
squeezed into a dusty bronze lamp.
[snip]
> Now, I had a psychotic breakdown in 1995. I have been through
> so much shit since then. Through it all I have had the feeling that
> god is there for me and does love me - and there is someone
> there who is helping me. It just occurred to me while writing this
> post, that it might have been my angel trying to touch me and reach
> me that partially caused what happened to me back in 1995...
> and the dreams like those above are his attempt to try to explain
> to me what happened to me, and that he did not want to hurt me-
> just to touch me and come into contact with me.
>
I wanted to tell you Lisa. I wanted to tell you so badly. But I could
see that you were not ready. Even still, you might not be ready. Ready
to accept yourself. For one who had gone through it, who had seen it
so many times in others, the signs were as clear as the sun in a
cloudless sky.
Without the extensive paradigmic preparation, the disciplines, the
even attempted full manifestation of your inner angel shattered your
psyche. This is the reason why such extensive preparation in the
Sacred Magic(k) of Abramelin is necessary. You are constructing a
vehicle (Tibetians), a chariot (Jewish and Hindu term), a vessel
(esoteric Egyptian and Christian term), gate ... out of your self ...
your psyche ... through molding your paradigm. Do you know the myth of
Phaeton son of Apollo?
You had come to an uneasy inner peace with it. I did not want to tip
that precarious balance. Even my mere presence had created an omen of
Awakening... the phone call ... and more.
> I've also had another dream in which I was flying and saw
> this male being who was a 'cloud' 'aura' type thing like what
> I used to see when I was a kid and had migraines... this
> being was my mate, it seemed to me in the dream. He wanted
> to be near me so much, but... even being as close as I was
> to him (seeing him from a ways away in my dream) threatened
> to literally *rip* the human being that I am into pieces. The
> dream was lucid and I had to immediately wake myself from
> the dream for fear that if I stayed in it around that being - my mate-
> my humanness would be torn apart just by the pull of his
> attraction to me.
>
The Anima/Animus in Jungian psychology is recognized as the symbol of
the psyche/soul and when projected or perceived in another leads to
infatuation (projection) or love (perception). It is the finding of
the completing complement and dynamic opposition. It is the idea
behind the soulmate.
Conversely here the soulmate becomes the symbol of the higher aspect
of the soul/self/psyche ... the inner Eternal, Divine, Angel.
And those weren't likely migraines when you were a kid... at least not
your average migraines. Your angel is one that won't take no for an
answer. He wants to Awaken, just like mine decided to badger me until
I made peace with her. Peace in the Confucian I_ching is the symbol of
the unification of heaven and earth, god and man, the higher and the
lower.
> You can try to protect them.
>
Yes, I always have. Tried with all my heart.
>
> If you yourself are powerful, than you may be able to help them
> and protect them to an extent.
>
A reason to become an adept, no?
> He may have to go through the same sorts of struggles
> himself one day. If he does he will be able to look at the
> stones I have dropped along the way as a kind of a map...
> and he will know a hell of a lot more than I did when all
> of this shit started happening to me.
>
10% odds for him going through the same roughly according to the
statistics of the general population if you went through it.
"It is dangerous to keep dark the minds of the mage-born."
-Legend of Earthsea, Ursula Leguin.
> > > *People don't want to know*. People don't want to believe. That's the
> > > beautiful thing. I can stand here and say the truth *outloud* and
> > > nobody will pay any attention. They'll avert their attention,
> > > rationalize, think I'm an eccentric nut, think I'm a bad person,
> > > whatever they have to do ... to keep on believing that their safe
> > > little world is all there is.
>
> Yeah, but the people who understand, really understand.
>
How many are those? Who would care? I keep on going because I would
rather be the kind of man who would keep on going than not ... not
because I think it must or will make a difference.
> > Foucault's Pendulum, although hated by many, is essentially Eco's take on
> > adept culture. I've read it many times, and at least recognise the places
> > where I think Eco is full of shit.
>
> "Adept culture"? I don't really know what I think of such a thing.
>
> I am not sure that those who are called 'adepts', aren't just
> spiritual teenagers who haved learned some really cool psychic
> hat tricks, many of them.
>
And politicians are called statesmen, even though we all know what
they do with their power and prestige. It is no different with adepts.
> Of course, I may have a different understanding of the word
> 'adept' than you two have.
>
People have this social ideal of an adept. Given human nature, how
much of that enlightenment talk would be propaganda or the exception
rather than the rule?
> I don't know that I really care *too* very much about being able
> to do magick of the sort that is going to work to manifest *my
> own will only*. what is the necessity of doing such a thing -
> is it only something 'cool', like being able to lift really
> heavy weights, or have good toys, or what?
>
You answered your question above. Sometimes you don't have a choice
about it. Or your only choice is to break or die instead. Maybe you
need to protect people you care about. Maybe like some poor sucker
like me you buy into honor and social idealism and want to make a
difference in a world that palpably is not like that. Maybe you have a
higher purpose.
That's up to you.
The key though is that if you don't have the power ... and this power
comes from yourself so you steal it from no one ... then somebody else
will claim *their* birthright and if you aren't there to balance them
... then we have the world we live in. Do you like that reality?
If you don't, why don't you change it?
Why else do you think I'm speaking out? Both my inner self and my
worldly consciousness share the same high ideals. What we differ in is
our "belief" about the effectiveness of such action. I think it's
futile, and point out all the other times that telling the truth has
gotten us not only nowhere but set us back. It argues that if we speak
out at least others will have a fighting chance maybe. With that it
was hard to argue, so thus I speak.
> I could see it being something good if it were more like
> painting, or a dance that expresses one's feelings and
> touches other people, or something like this - but these
> things aren't really motivated solely the need to *have one's
> ego will done*, really - they are more like expressions of the
> deep soul, in the best cases, IMHO.
>
> I would not call myself an adept, but I would call myself someone
> who is 'struggling in spirit'.
>
Would you hamstring yourself because you saw no point in running
marathons? Some people, like Casey have a choice between palatable
alternatives. For people like you and I there was never any real
choice. Sink or swim, do or die, understand or go mad.
> > > The game is rigged Casey. Just remember that and watch your back.
>
> Like you once said nguyen (if I recall what you said correctly)
>
> 'the best don't even make it out of their cribs - they're killed
> before they have a chance to grow up.'
>
> Some are hidden away though, eh? hah... and I guess they
> do their growing up later.
>
This is most unfortunate Lisa that you have mentioned this. First you
must know that this has almost certainly affected some who might read
this post. It is terribly insensitive to them.
People are not ready to know. I don't think they ever really will be
in my personal opinion. People can't handle that kind of reality very
well. I've seen rejection of just the bare hints of it too many times.
Now that you've put it out there though, I have to at least briefly
address it to put it into context.
Through well known standard medical studies it is known that America
has an unusually high rate of SIDS/crib death. It is also known that
different countries including less developed countries have a much
lower and in some cases almost non-existent. For this reason, standard
medical interpretation has led to the hypothesis that is some
(unknown) culturally dependent factor that is independent of level of
medical care.
Now we enter the world of the occult, which is not scientifically
verified. However, put together these known factors.
Most cultures around the world have made specific magical charms or
blessings to ward off crib death from Egypt to China and world round.
Think of where Baptism probably got started as a hybrid adoptive
pagan/christian ritual. The Xtian baptism plus the pagan magical charm
against early crib death. Overtime the Xtian rite has become a
ritualized formality mostly.
Most cultures around the world keep their babies in the bed with the
parents at least until recently. This is not often done in America.
It is known (medically) that a child's biorhytms synchornize with
their parents when in direct physical prescence. This has been
(medically) hypothesized as a direct factor in preventing crib death.
In occult terms we would say the child's aura is open. Next we look at
adults with 'psychic' or 'magical' gifts. We note that they are often
more bothered by autonomous agent (spirit) activity than your average
populace by a much higher rate. Why should it be any different for
babies? No reason at all.
In occult terms, we formulate an occultic hypothesis. The child's aura
is open. I know from experiments and observations and case studies,
that when two people hug their auras blend. Certain gifted mediums I
know use this trick (blending their aura) with their SO's at night to
prevent them from becomming unwilling possession targets. Which
characteristically includes in negative cases the difficulty of
breathing.
Occultic hypothesis: spirits attracted to gifted babies that stand out
to them just like gifted adults do take advantage of their open
isolated "auras" and either inadvertantly or purposely cause them to
cease breathing. The reason why it's higher in America is that when we
got our modern culture, we stopped doing allot of these things.
That's a hypothesis. In my studies and travels and interviews, I have
found a mountain of observations and information that directly and
indirectly supports this as a conclusion... if not a scientifically
conducted one.
Lisa, why did you have to say that? Never in a 100 years would I have
said that openly. There is so much about our world that people cannot
accept emotionally, perhaps are better off not knowing.
It opens one up to the idea that there is an invisible world of forces
and beings that reach in and fuck with their lives. If they can handle
that thought it has to be structured along religious and moralistic
lines. They cannot imagine it as a social economy, a natural ecology,
where the law of nature rules invisibly as it does visibly. They look
that that invisible world to offer them a better reality than this
one. A better world that despite depictions in many ancient traditions
as being just as I have spoken as cruel and capricious ... they look
to believe in something better... or at least imagine they will have
escape to oblivion from this world's cruelty.
People can't handle that Lisa.
There are 'rules' being broken here, and while I don't care much for
rules it still could have serious consequences.
nguyen
Orlando Fiol
> When I get involved in a domestic case, it's a full service issue. I
> don't just help him get his wife back - I address the underlying
> problem. I help him learn how to deal with his anger issues, his
> habits, his unemployment, whatever is leading him to take it out on
> his wife. I help him become a better man.
Mind telling us how you convince people that you actually
do this? And how much do you charge for your lie?
> And if after helping him do all of that, if I find out that he has
> shown ingratitude for my help by beating his wife again- and it is
> very hard to hide certain things from a person of power - then I make
> sure he doesn't beat his wife again.
Oh, by spiritually whacking him?
> Recently I had to sit in judgement of a case. In the end, I sanctioned
> a follower of mine to have the spirits take a man from this world
> before his time would have otherwise come.
Sounds like you have hitmen as your followers.
> I did this because the law had turned a blind eye to the man for
> years. It was his legal right to poison the mind of his young son
> because of custody. The young son had a new home with his mother a
> good man, but the other father was a bad influence.
>
> I did not care that the man was bad, or was a drug user, violent,
> criminal, etc. I did care that he was teaching his son bad ways.
>
> I judged that the situation, which they had tried to make work for
> years using all reasonable methods had gotten nowhere. To save the
> young son and give him a chance at a life, the father had to pass from
> this life and quickly.
>
> So I ordered my former student to use the invisible powers to arrange
> so that he might pass from this world. The responsibility was mine.
Care to do some jail time for accessory to murder? Either
do it or shut up.
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
For me, the real clincher that led me to understand
> their functional relationship to Africa was when i learned that in many
> Cuban houses the services are conducted in part in African languages
> (preserved through 500 years of diaspora). In other words, these are not
> "revivals" in the sense that Neo-Pagan religions are -- they are true
> surviving lineages that are, in many cases, in the process of reuiniting
> after a long diaspora.
>
and hardly actually spoken by anyone is hardly a language.
it is instead a memory of a mixture of languages and
dialects of Yoruba. Most Cubans neither fully understand
what they are mumbling nor can use the language for any
purpose other than religious symbolism. In other words,
no poetry or philosophy can be composed in Lukumi because
no one possesses enough of a vocabulary to do it.
Contrast this to the truly living tradition in Nigeria and
you will see the difference. Yorubas understand the
poetry of Odu because it is their native language rather
than a symbolic remnant of the past.
Orlando
Casey Sheldon
>
> I was reading a chapter in a book by carlos suares last
> night - the book is called, 'the second coming of the
> rabbi called reb yshwh' (IIRC). In this chapter in this
> book suares said that (and this is paraphrased because
> I cannot remember the exact wording of what was said)
> 'this thing that we call god seems to chose certain people
> and attack them relentlessly. When this happens then you
> know that what comes through the person is going to
> change things'.
>
> This was in a chapter in which he talked about the soul
> and how one must try *not* to name it or constrain it, but
> just let it *come through* one.
Even the words I speak must be made 'holy.' How does one do this? By taking
a coal and cleansing the lips. This is the act that says, "Here I am... let
me be a worthy vessel of the Ruach HaQodesh." Having one's lips singed or
burned may seem like an exercise in masochism, but I think that we are tried
by fire in our everyday lives quite often. When we are purified many times,
then we become vessels capable of doing great works, because we have acted
in faith.
> >Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
> > necessary.
>
> I think it does very much care but just... has big hands?
Good metaphor. You seem to have a gift for metaphor, Lisa.
> I have had dreams where I tried to touch something -
> or tried to dance or something - and my dancing warped time
> and space and *moved everything* to what seemed like
> another 'line of reality' or something like this.
>
> In one recent dream I had I remember that this being was near
> me and I touched it - when I touched it, I hurt it do bad that I
> killed it. I didn't mean to do this. I felt awful and held this being
> close to me to revive it... I managed to revive it, but after it had
> revived it was *something different completely from what it
> had been* - it had turned into something like a lemur.
>
> This was incredibly distressing for me.
This change may have been necessary; the act of reviving it was all that was
required.
> Now, I had a psychotic breakdown in 1995. I have been through
> so much shit since then. Through it all I have had the feeling that
> god is there for me and does love me - and there is someone
> there who is helping me. It just occurred to me while writing this
> post, that it might have been my angel trying to touch me and reach
> me that partially caused what happened to me back in 1995...
> and the dreams like those above are his attempt to try to explain
> to me what happened to me, and that he did not want to hurt me-
> just to touch me and come into contact with me.
The spirit moves where it will, and nothing remains unchanged that it
touches.
> >The Aggadahs
>
> The haggadah? Is this the same as what you are talking
> about?
>
> I figured out a while back that the haggadah was *incredibly
> central* to the whole jewish religion - because *the escape from
> slavery* - in a very deep sense - is *what that religion is all about*.
Kabbalah and Exodus is a great book by Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi which covers
this very topic. It maps out the book of Exodus in such a way as to place
the characters on the Tree and show the escape of the human spirit from
bondage. It is well worth the read, and it deals with the haggadah that most
non-Jews really need to know to understand the esoteric interpretation of
Exodus.
> Well, when moses went up to the mountain the people
> started worshipping the golden calf - and if I recall correctly,
> they even started believing that the calf was YHWH.
>
> Or it may be that that was just my reading of it in the Old
> Testament.
>
> Many christians do the same these days IMHO. They are
> essentially engaging in idol worship and mistaking an idol
> for the real thing.
As they venerated the golden calf and the brazen serpent, so some idolize
the cross in this day and age.
> Or learn how to move with it all very quickly. Live in a tent in
> the desert and make the getaway carrying your unrisen bread
> on your shoulders. Get while the getting is good. When god
> gives you the sign, be ready to take off.
>
> Where 'it all' means *those beings you love and care about*-
> not your material goods.
All I can do is trust that my Goddess will provide the way out, if such a
course of action becomes necessary. I will, of course, do whatever is in my
power to keep my family from harm, but if I prove insufficient, then I know
that my Goddess will provide.
> If you yourself are powerful, than you may be able to help them
> and protect them to an extent.
>
> And you can support each other.
>
> I think this is what a church or 'gathering' should be
> ideally - but isn't really these days.
My SO is well aware of my spiritual path. She knows a lot more about what is
going on within me than I do, sometimes. We really support each other, and
we talk about everything. A lot of my other friends are stuck at a certain
level of development, and I can't change them. I have to let them walk their
own path, although I would love to step in and 'show them the way.' Today I
know that that isn't really helping them. Teaching someone to fish is one
thing, but handing them a fish is quite another.
> "Adept culture"? I don't really know what I think of such a thing.
>
> I am not sure that those who are called 'adepts', aren't just
> spiritual teenagers who haved learned some really cool psychic
> hat tricks, many of them.
>
> Of course, I may have a different understanding of the word
> 'adept' than you two have.
>
> I would not call myself an adept, but I would call myself someone
> who is 'struggling in spirit'.
I agree with you here. Eco's point is rather similar. The thing I liked
about the book is that it plays no favorites. It doesn't denounce any one
tradition more than any other. It takes shots at the OTO, different types of
Satanism, Kabbalah, Santeria, the WMT in general, and others that I'm
forgetting right now. What it drives at is that all of these are valid in
their search to find spiritual understanding (understanding is something
that never stops growing, as opposed to those who seek spiritual truth), but
that they are all equally invalid when that goal is forgotten. Petty
squabbles, in-fighting, and dueling are all ego-preservation devices that
really shouldn't have any place in these societies.
Here is the quote from the last chapter (chapter 120 no less)... This won't
ruin the book for you, but it will help illustrate my point:
"But that which seems to me should be deplored is the fact that I see some
senseless and foolish idolaters who no more imitate the excellence of the
cult of Egypt, than the shadow approaches the nobility of the body, and who
seek Divinity, for which they have no reason whatsoever, in the excrements
of dead and inanimate things. These idolaters, nevertheless, mock not only
those of us who are divine and sagacious worshipers but also those of us who
are reputed to be beasts. And what is worse, with this they triumph by
seeing their mad rites in so great repute..."
"Let not this trouble you, oh Momus," said Isis, "because fate has ordained
the vicissitude of shadows and light."
"But the evil," answered Momus, "is that they hold for certain that they are
in the light."
-Giordano Bruno, The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast, Third Dialogue,
Second Part, translated by Arthur D. Imerti, Rutgers University Press, 1964,
p. 236
> Some are hidden away though, eh? hah... and I guess they
> do their growing up later.
Some never stop hiding. I wonder if this is not for the best.
> I hope that eventually most of the people around me are people
> like that.
>
> Many are right now - those in my personal life.
I'm mostly concerned with living with that kind of integrity in everyday
life. Lots of people are cash-register honest, because they could get
caught. They live in fear of consequences. I deeply desire the kind of
integrity that doesn't care if anyone is watching or not. To do this,
though, I must, as Josh Geller would say, "Kill I." I must do so on a minute
by minute basis.
> > So, the rules are that there are no rules?
>
> I think it is more like, 'examine closely the things that you have
> been told are rules.'
I'm not sure I understand you here, but I'll meditate on it nonetheless.
Eoghan Ballard
Orlando Fiol <of...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> c...@luckymojo.com writes:>
> For me, the real clincher that led me to understand
> > their functional relationship to Africa was when i learned that in many
> > Cuban houses the services are conducted in part in African languages
> > (preserved through 500 years of diaspora). In other words, these are not
> > "revivals" in the sense that Neo-Pagan religions are -- they are true
> > surviving lineages that are, in many cases, in the process of reuiniting
> > after a long diaspora.
One thing that needs a bit of corrective is that the Yoruba spoken in
Lucumi mainly derives from the mid-19th century diaspora. Prior to that
time the "Yoruba" did not exist in Cuba (or elsewhere in the Americas)
in very great numbers. The large wars between various kingdoms at this
time brought about the distruction of the old Oyo Kingdom and the
wholesale enslavement of a large number of its peoples. This then
brought a large number of Africans direct from the continent to the new
world in the very last decades of slavery. This is the reason why Orisha
is so prominent in American diaspora traditions today. Prior to this,
the Bantu traditions such as Palo and Kumina and Candomble de Angola
(Calunda, etc.) were far more numerous.
The Lucumi language however, is not as corrupted or unintelligable as
Orlando makes it out to be. It is true that few there understand much,
but turning to Nigeria is a response fraught with complexities. For one,
almost all Orisha traditions in the Americas (and virtually all of Cuban
origin) are of Oyo origins. Oyo traditions were wiped out in Nigeria and
are not there to be rediscovered. What you end up with is a different
tradition entirely.
Eoghan
Lisa Gardner
[I said:]
> > Like you once said nguyen (if I recall what you said correctly)
> >
> > 'the best don't even make it out of their cribs - they're killed
> > before they have a chance to grow up.'
> >
> > Some are hidden away though, eh? hah... and I guess they
> > do their growing up later.
> >
>
> This is most unfortunate Lisa that you have mentioned this. First you
> must know that this has almost certainly affected some who might read
> this post. It is terribly insensitive to them.
Well, I have lived with all this for seven years now. It is a daily
struggle for me.
I think that maybe I forget that other people don't do the same.
Nguyen, I don't know that many people even take what I have
said - or what you have said - seriously, though. And if they
don't take it seriously I don't think it affects them in the way
of which you are speaking.
Do you think that I have hurt people just by talking about
all of this?
I am groping around. I don't know any 'rules' except for those
that I have managed to figure out for myself. I know that I feel
many pressed upon me - but I also know that for me, those rules
have to be questioned.
I don't want to hurt people. It is not something that I incline
towards doing at all.
Would you explain a little more here what you have said
above? You can send me private email if you'd like, or course.
> People are not ready to know. I don't think they ever really will be
> in my personal opinion. People can't handle that kind of reality very
> well. I've seen rejection of just the bare hints of it too many times.
Nyugen, I don't know. Something is on the horizon, I feel.
Would it be better that people start to see it and know that it
is coming - even if it scares the shit out of them at first, or would
it be better that they don't know at all until it is here?
> Now that you've put it out there though, I have to at least briefly
> address it to put it into context.
>
> Through well known standard medical studies it is known that America
> has an unusually high rate of SIDS/crib death. It is also known that
> different countries including less developed countries have a much
> lower and in some cases almost non-existent. For this reason, standard
> medical interpretation has led to the hypothesis that is some
> (unknown) culturally dependent factor that is independent of level of
> medical care.
>
> Now we enter the world of the occult, which is not scientifically
> verified. However, put together these known factors.
>
> Most cultures around the world have made specific magical charms or
> blessings to ward off crib death from Egypt to China and world round.
> Think of where Baptism probably got started as a hybrid adoptive
> pagan/christian ritual. The Xtian baptism plus the pagan magical charm
> against early crib death. Overtime the Xtian rite has become a
> ritualized formality mostly.
>
> Most cultures around the world keep their babies in the bed with the
> parents at least until recently. This is not often done in America.
> It is known (medically) that a child's biorhytms synchornize with
> their parents when in direct physical prescence. This has been
> (medically) hypothesized as a direct factor in preventing crib death.
I slept with my first son in the bed with me for quite a while
after his birth. I plan to do the same with this one in my womb
right now.
> In occult terms we would say the child's aura is open. Next we look at
> adults with 'psychic' or 'magical' gifts. We note that they are often
> more bothered by autonomous agent (spirit) activity than your average
> populace by a much higher rate. Why should it be any different for
> babies? No reason at all.
>
> In occult terms, we formulate an occultic hypothesis. The child's aura
> is open. I know from experiments and observations and case studies,
> that when two people hug their auras blend. Certain gifted mediums I
> know use this trick (blending their aura) with their SO's at night to
> prevent them from becomming unwilling possession targets. Which
> characteristically includes in negative cases the difficulty of
> breathing.
'start to breathe'
Yes, when I think about this I think that there is someone
'with' me many times when I am sleeping. I think he protects
me.
He sometimes loses track of me. In my sleep I feel that there
are people/beings who try to 'drive' me like I am some sort of
car or who try to use me like I am some sort of machine. The
dreams I have when those people are around me are fucked
up and... 'compressing' to me.
But there are sometimes when I sense that I am empathically
'with' someone in my dreams - and these dreams are beautiful
and healing for me.
One night recently I had one of these dream and then felt a
man separating from me. All of the sudden he puthis arms
around me and said, 'Lisa! Thank god I've found you.'
the feeling was that he had lost me for a little while but
had once again found me in psychic space... and he was
releived at this. I wonder if he -whoever he is- is trying to
protect me as you describe above?
> Occultic hypothesis: spirits attracted to gifted babies that stand out
> to them just like gifted adults do take advantage of their open
> isolated "auras" and either inadvertantly or purposely cause them to
> cease breathing. The reason why it's higher in America is that when we
> got our modern culture, we stopped doing allot of these things.
I would agree with you.
> That's a hypothesis. In my studies and travels and interviews, I have
> found a mountain of observations and information that directly and
> indirectly supports this as a conclusion... if not a scientifically
> conducted one.
>
> Lisa, why did you have to say that?
I did not mean to hurt anyone.
>Never in a 100 years would I have
> said that openly. There is so much about our world that people cannot
> accept emotionally, perhaps are better off not knowing.
I don't know, nguyen.
I think these things will change. I think that this is what the
apocalypse written about in revelations is about - these things
changing at the appointed time.
Where 'the appointed time' is not something that can be
known in advance, but is something that comes upon us
like adolescence comes upon a human being: you know
that it is due to happen, you just don't know exactly when
it will happen.
> It opens one up to the idea that there is an invisible world of forces
> and beings that reach in and fuck with their lives.
Well, yes. But if those things are fucking with their lives,
should they know or should they not know?
> If they can handle
> that thought it has to be structured along religious and moralistic
> lines. They cannot imagine it as a social economy, a natural ecology,
> where the law of nature rules invisibly as it does visibly.
But this stuff IMHO is *not* due to any laws of nature - it is
due to something which wants to *go against* the laws of
nature as a corporation wants to strip mind sacred sites.
Yeah, it has been happening for a long time, but... that
doesn't mean it is right or natural.
>They look
> that that invisible world to offer them a better reality than this
> one.
'the only way out is through.'
Jesus descended into hell before he could ascend. There
is a struggle to be waged IMHO before 'the good place' can
be reached.
>A better world that despite depictions in many ancient traditions
> as being just as I have spoken as cruel and capricious ... they look
> to believe in something better... or at least imagine they will have
> escape to oblivion from this world's cruelty.
I understand how hearing something other than that can
be upsetting to people.
But should they know, or should they not know? Nguyen,
if they don't know what they are dealing with will they make
the right choices?
I dunno. I don't know.
> People can't handle that Lisa.
>
> There are 'rules' being broken here, and while I don't care much for
> rules it still could have serious consequences.
Well, who is breaking rules? Me?
I feel the celestial corporate forces upon me all of the time,
wanting me dead or unconscious or silent. *These forces are
not god but are something directly opposed to god as I know
him*. I struggle against them.
I speak about *the struggle that I myself am going through*.
It is not some struggle I read about in some book or watch
on some real or psychic tv show - *it is something that I
experience on a daily basis*.
to tell me that I cannot talk about *what I am experiencing
myself and how it hurts me* - now that to me sounds very
strange.
I didn't ask for what came upon me. I didn't volunteer for it -
it just happened. I didn't 'go into it' knowing what was happening,
with the support of some occult org or some group or with any
kind of knowledge about it all whatsoever - it *just fucking
happened to me*. Now I talk about it. I was never given or
told any rules to go by with regards to secrecy or anything
like this... why is it that *talking about my own experience* is
something that would mark me as a 'rule breaker'?
This does not feel right or just or fair to me.
Would you explain a little more what you have said?
Lisa
Casey Sheldon
> and beings that reach in and fuck with their lives. If they can handle
> that thought it has to be structured along religious and moralistic
> lines. They cannot imagine it as a social economy, a natural ecology,
> where the law of nature rules invisibly as it does visibly. They look
> that that invisible world to offer them a better reality than this
> one. A better world that despite depictions in many ancient traditions
> as being just as I have spoken as cruel and capricious ... they look
> to believe in something better... or at least imagine they will have
> escape to oblivion from this world's cruelty.
But this is what we are faced with. This is not an idea hidden in ancient
tomes and grimoires. This is something that is written everywhere, and yet
is only read by those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Is Usenet
different in this regard?
> There are 'rules' being broken here, and while I don't care much for
> rules it still could have serious consequences.
There is a widely popular religious figure who died, and when that happened,
the veil between the Holy of Holies and the Outer Temple was rent in two.
Whether it was myth or not, can we not have hope that such a thing may come
to pass in our own time, in its own way?
Casey Sheldon
>
> Would it be better that people start to see it and know that it
> is coming - even if it scares the shit out of them at first, or would
> it be better that they don't know at all until it is here?
> I think these things will change. I think that this is what the
> apocalypse written about in revelations is about - these things
> changing at the appointed time.
>
> Where 'the appointed time' is not something that can be
> known in advance, but is something that comes upon us
> like adolescence comes upon a human being: you know
> that it is due to happen, you just don't know exactly when
> it will happen.
The DAT (Due And Appointed Time) has haunted my dreams for many years now. I
find it odd that you use that term. Perhaps we should move this to a more
private forum??
Lisa Gardner
> > Yeah, god has teeth.
> >
> > I was reading a chapter in a book by carlos suares last
> > night - the book is called, 'the second coming of the
> > rabbi called reb yshwh' (IIRC). In this chapter in this
> > book suares said that (and this is paraphrased because
> > I cannot remember the exact wording of what was said)
> > 'this thing that we call god seems to chose certain people
> > and attack them relentlessly. When this happens then you
> > know that what comes through the person is going to
> > change things'.
> >
> > This was in a chapter in which he talked about the soul
> > and how one must try *not* to name it or constrain it, but
> > just let it *come through* one.
>
> Even the words I speak must be made 'holy.' How does one do this? By taking
> a coal and cleansing the lips. This is the act that says, "Here I am... let
> me be a worthy vessel of the Ruach HaQodesh." Having one's lips singed or
> burned may seem like an exercise in masochism, but I think that we are tried
> by fire in our everyday lives quite often.
Yes, I agree. Eating of the bread of affliction.
>When we are purified many times,
> then we become vessels capable of doing great works, because we have acted
> in faith.
>
> > >Now it at least tries not to forcibly take my attention more than
> > > necessary.
> >
> > I think it does very much care but just... has big hands?
>
> Good metaphor. You seem to have a gift for metaphor, Lisa.
I've started allowing myself to think and speak in the
terms and pictures and feel that things present themselves
to me with - does that make sense?
In other words, people may talk about the 'animus'
or something like this, but *what presents itself to me
is a man who wants to make love to me and join with
me*.
So I talk in those terms. Other terms may be useful for
many things, but... the terms in which the thing presents
itself to my consciousness seem to me to be *very close
to the ground*, and not 'constructions of the tower' or
anything like this - if that makes sense to you.
And those things that are 'close to the ground' I think
are ways of perceiving that are... I don't know the right
words to use here... 'hooked into' my mindspace in a
very deep and *living* way. More so than intellectual
understandings of the same things.
Therefore if *living* is what I want to do, I need to get
down to that ground level where my blood actually does
circulate - and not let everything happen at a level at which
I have constructed high tower walls or a plexiglass wall
between myself and the things that I am feeling or perceiving.
Make any sense?
> > I have had dreams where I tried to touch something -
> > or tried to dance or something - and my dancing warped time
> > and space and *moved everything* to what seemed like
> > another 'line of reality' or something like this.
> >
> > In one recent dream I had I remember that this being was near
> > me and I touched it - when I touched it, I hurt it do bad that I
> > killed it. I didn't mean to do this. I felt awful and held this being
> > close to me to revive it... I managed to revive it, but after it had
> > revived it was *something different completely from what it
> > had been* - it had turned into something like a lemur.
> >
> > This was incredibly distressing for me.
>
> This change may have been necessary; the act of reviving it was all that was
> required.
It was difficult though. I felt badly about it. I had not wanted
to hurt the thing so badly.
> > Now, I had a psychotic breakdown in 1995. I have been through
> > so much shit since then. Through it all I have had the feeling that
> > god is there for me and does love me - and there is someone
> > there who is helping me. It just occurred to me while writing this
> > post, that it might have been my angel trying to touch me and reach
> > me that partially caused what happened to me back in 1995...
> > and the dreams like those above are his attempt to try to explain
> > to me what happened to me, and that he did not want to hurt me-
> > just to touch me and come into contact with me.
>
> The spirit moves where it will, and nothing remains unchanged that it
> touches.
And how do we start to allow the spirit to move?
Right before I had my psychotic breakdown in 1995 I
remember I had been sitting on my bed writing in my
journal. I had just written, 'I am not letting my spirit flow?'
or something along these lines. I lifted my pen up off
the paper and then outside the rain started falling very
gently.
It did not let up for I think a month or so - those few raindrops
were the start of the storms that hit cental california and
caused a lot of flooding back in 1995.
That is beautiful to me, that those drops started falling
exactly when they did. To me it means something for me.
And I guess I got flooded in a sense back in 1995.
But rain replenishes.
> > >The Aggadahs
> >
> > The haggadah? Is this the same as what you are talking
> > about?
> >
> > I figured out a while back that the haggadah was *incredibly
> > central* to the whole jewish religion - because *the escape from
> > slavery* - in a very deep sense - is *what that religion is all about*.
>
> Kabbalah and Exodus is a great book by Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi which covers
> this very topic. It maps out the book of Exodus in such a way as to place
> the characters on the Tree and show the escape of the human spirit from
> bondage. It is well worth the read, and it deals with the haggadah that most
> non-Jews really need to know to understand the esoteric interpretation of
> Exodus.
What is the name of the book? I think I have one book on
the kaballah by this author... I like that book.
> > Well, when moses went up to the mountain the people
> > started worshipping the golden calf - and if I recall correctly,
> > they even started believing that the calf was YHWH.
> >
> > Or it may be that that was just my reading of it in the Old
> > Testament.
> >
> > Many christians do the same these days IMHO. They are
> > essentially engaging in idol worship and mistaking an idol
> > for the real thing.
>
> As they venerated the golden calf and the brazen serpent, so some idolize
> the cross in this day and age.
Yeah, and not only that, but *a particular understanding of the
being of jesus* and *that particular name* and *movement*
with which *that particular name* is associated. Many other
traditions I think have known jesus in their own ways, and
under different names.
So in this way also, many christians are committing a
type of idolatry - they are *pushing jesus into a specific
molded form that exists within their minds* - and forming
an image of him that is a 'golden calf' of sorts.
And if it *doesn't look to them like the golden calf*, they
won't accept it - even if it is at heart and in action and etc.,
the being whom they know as jesus.
> > Or learn how to move with it all very quickly. Live in a tent in
> > the desert and make the getaway carrying your unrisen bread
> > on your shoulders. Get while the getting is good. When god
> > gives you the sign, be ready to take off.
> >
> > Where 'it all' means *those beings you love and care about*-
> > not your material goods.
>
> All I can do is trust that my Goddess will provide the way out, if such a
> course of action becomes necessary. I will, of course, do whatever is in my
> power to keep my family from harm, but if I prove insufficient, then I know
> that my Goddess will provide.
Yep. This is how I feel about YHWH.
My 19 year old son I think has a strong goddess type orientation. I
think that he inclines towards that.
> > If you yourself are powerful, than you may be able to help them
> > and protect them to an extent.
> >
> > And you can support each other.
> >
> > I think this is what a church or 'gathering' should be
> > ideally - but isn't really these days.
>
> My SO is well aware of my spiritual path. She knows a lot more about what is
> going on within me than I do, sometimes. We really support each other, and
> we talk about everything.
I think that you are very lucky to have that with your SO.
>A lot of my other friends are stuck at a certain
> level of development, and I can't change them. I have to let them walk their
> own path, although I would love to step in and 'show them the way.' Today I
> know that that isn't really helping them. Teaching someone to fish is one
> thing, but handing them a fish is quite another.
Yeah.
> > "Adept culture"? I don't really know what I think of such a thing.
> >
> > I am not sure that those who are called 'adepts', aren't just
> > spiritual teenagers who haved learned some really cool psychic
> > hat tricks, many of them.
> >
> > Of course, I may have a different understanding of the word
> > 'adept' than you two have.
> >
> > I would not call myself an adept, but I would call myself someone
> > who is 'struggling in spirit'.
>
> I agree with you here. Eco's point is rather similar. The thing I liked
> about the book is that it plays no favorites. It doesn't denounce any one
> tradition more than any other. It takes shots at the OTO, different types of
> Satanism, Kabbalah, Santeria, the WMT in general, and others that I'm
> forgetting right now. What it drives at is that all of these are valid in
> their search to find spiritual understanding (understanding is something
> that never stops growing, as opposed to those who seek spiritual truth), but
> that they are all equally invalid when that goal is forgotten.
Yep. Then they are I guess, just shells or false images.
>Petty
> squabbles, in-fighting, and dueling are all ego-preservation devices that
> really shouldn't have any place in these societies.
I fear that they do have *quite* a place there, though.
I don't know that because I have never been a member of
any of those organizations, but I do fear that that is the case
with them.
that is bad, because the people in those organizations can
have access to some powerful stuff it may be.
I think certain people - like Aleister Crowley - tried to guard
against people like this making use of his stuff by sprinkling
it liberally with stuff designed to mislead those who did not
really 'get it'.
> Here is the quote from the last chapter (chapter 120 no less)... This won't
> ruin the book for you, but it will help illustrate my point:
> "But that which seems to me should be deplored is the fact that I see some
> senseless and foolish idolaters who no more imitate the excellence of the
> cult of Egypt, than the shadow approaches the nobility of the body, and who
> seek Divinity, for which they have no reason whatsoever, in the excrements
> of dead and inanimate things. These idolaters, nevertheless, mock not only
> those of us who are divine and sagacious worshipers but also those of us who
> are reputed to be beasts. And what is worse, with this they triumph by
> seeing their mad rites in so great repute..."
> "Let not this trouble you, oh Momus," said Isis, "because fate has ordained
> the vicissitude of shadows and light."
> "But the evil," answered Momus, "is that they hold for certain that they are
> in the light."
ugh.
> -Giordano Bruno, The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast, Third Dialogue,
> Second Part, translated by Arthur D. Imerti, Rutgers University Press, 1964,
> p. 236
>
> > Some are hidden away though, eh? hah... and I guess they
> > do their growing up later.
>
> Some never stop hiding. I wonder if this is not for the best.
I don't know. I know I don't try to hide, but I sure seem to
myself to get a lot of shit.
So I do not know.
> > I hope that eventually most of the people around me are people
> > like that.
> >
> > Many are right now - those in my personal life.
>
> I'm mostly concerned with living with that kind of integrity in everyday
> life. Lots of people are cash-register honest, because they could get
> caught. They live in fear of consequences. I deeply desire the kind of
> integrity that doesn't care if anyone is watching or not.
yeah, me too, insofar as it can be manifested in this world.
I sure am not perfect.
>To do this,
> though, I must, as Josh Geller would say, "Kill I." I must do so on a minute
> by minute basis.
Yep. And do it in a way that is true for oneself. What frustrates
me is that if one is doing it in this way, then it seems to me that
it is often only oneself and god who understand what it is that
one is doing.
> > > So, the rules are that there are no rules?
> >
> > I think it is more like, 'examine closely the things that you have
> > been told are rules.'
>
> I'm not sure I understand you here, but I'll meditate on it nonetheless.
Well, I mean: look at all the things that you have been told
are rules. *Why* are they called rules? Just how hard and fast
are they? Some may be bullshit, others may have a *very good
reason* for being around.
Lisa
hy
You are very brave, Lisa, to talk of these things, when others oppose
you, or when others try to silence you with ominous actions. You seek
the light and spread it around the darkness for others to grasp onto,
before another blanket can be thrown down to hide the embers.
hy
And there are reasons, why you are ruleless at this time. Once you are
bound by rules, it will be much harder.