The "Makaya" rites in Vodou
Kevin Filan
If I'm reading Racine's posts on the Makaya rite correctly, and if she
is correct, practitioners of Orthodox Vodou believe the Makaya rites
are more free-form and less formalized than Orthodox Vodou. Makaya
bokors also have a reputation for doing sinister but potent malefic
magic. Finally, Makaya rites tend to concentrate on the hotter, more
immediate Petwo lwa.
Surely I can't be the only person who's noticed that this view is
almost identical to the way many practitioners of the Lucumi traditions
view Paleros. :)
I definitely want to learn more about the Makaya rites, particularly
its geographic origins. Racine also mentioned that Kongo rites are
distinctly unwelcome at some Makaya ceremonies: if she would be so kind
as to elaborate, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'd also welcome any
comments from Aboudja or from anyone else here who knows more about
this.
Peace
Kevin Filan
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
houngan...@my-deja.com
Hello Kevin,
No you are not dreaming in noting the general negative attitude, & its
similarities to those found in palo vs. Lukumi community. This attitude
is common with people who are not "inside" the Makaya tradition. Since
it, in its more "orthodox (I hate this word, but I cant think of
another) form", is much the same as Bizango (Kalinda, Gad Makandal, Bon
Sante`, etc.), we see the same general negative opinion & by *those*
who dont know to begin with.
It is doubtful that you will get "that person" to elaborate because
they cant. They dont know. As for the geography, in as much as most
rites in Haiti are mixed & therefore we can NEVER say for sure as to
the COMPLETE origins, Makaya comes mostly straight out the Kongo. See
my info further down on how this is possible & what is ment by
the "lack of appreciation" for requesting "Kongo" rhythms during a
Makaya service.
The following post is a reprint of dialogue going on as we speak on
this very topic over on VodouSpirit. I hope it helps & is enjoyable.
>>>>>
From: Aboudja (Houngan daGinea) <abo...@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:38pm
Subject: Makaya Service
One` e wespe pou tout sosyete-a
I have had multiple requests to speak about this issue, so I will try
& do my best here for you guys. Before I do however, I want you to
understand that the Makaya tradition, as far as being open to
inquiry, is about the same place that Palo was in the late 50's: very
closed. You cannot get people to speak much about this tradition.
Also understand that, though I do have Makaya Lwa & I also do have
several guards, I have yet to pass the Makaya initiation (It is on my
plate…I just haven't gotten round to it "eating" it yet) LOL.
However, I can give you an over view as I understand it & from
dealing with my own papa fey who has a Makaya house.
First of all, the basis of Makaya is in the Kongo. The word itself is
found in several dialect of Bantu/ Ki-Kongo & means "leaves". More
specifically it means those specific leaves, which are used to heal
or to "make majick". This is much the same as the use of the word
Palo (stick) to describe Kongo tradition in Cuba.
Now, Makaya in Haiti means 2 not so different things. Makaya as a
tradition is what we are talking about here. Some sorcerers (boko`)
in Haiti use this word to describe their own practices, but this is a
distinction from the traditional meaning of the word & is attendant
rites. These folks simple "go to work" & here we find more of
a "practice" of sorcery than a tradition. These are the guys who may
be called malfacteurs.
Contrary to certain statements from misguided Manbo, the rhythms used
in Makaya rites ARE in fact of Kongo origin in so much as the 2
principle rhythms of Petwo, the Boumba & the Kita are both KONGO IN
ORIGIN! LOL The fact that we do not beat Kongo Payet in Makaya service
does NOT mean that the Kongo is not in Makaya. Understand that there
are 8 different variations of "Kongo" & not all sound as the classic &
stately rhythm so commonly found played in Ginea service. This doesnt
even include the Kongo derived rhythms of Petwo (as I mentioned
already). Such statements prove they come from someone whose
familiarity is limited/ otherwise skewed.
Makaya rites, for those in Palo, will prove to be familiar. The word
Nkisi in Palo is not heard however in relation to the spirits
interacted with. It is heard though in many songs & other language.
In most houses of Makaya, the word (also of Bantu origin) Zonbi is
heard if the spirit served/ worked with is that of a dead person, or
Djab (or even Lwa) if it is of a different caliber all together.
Also, the classic prenda (iron pot) of Palo is not seen in Haiti
unless the Boko` has some connection to Cuba. No, the point is often
made in a sack called a Boumba (which I believe is the same word used
in Palo). I have once seen the point made in a terracotta krich (lg
container used to hold water, & also known as a kanari). The house
itself though will have a focal point of service even beyond these
Boumba. This is the Madoule, a coffin, the contents of which I am not
even sure of because, as I said, I have not yet been initiated in the
strictest sense, rather only received guards.
There are many famous Boumba, not the least of which is Doki (which
again I am sure will be familiar to most in Palo), Gad Lemba Zawo
Tate Koumande`, Zetwa Makaya, & so forth.
The rites follow their own tradition in the strictest sense. Makaya
itself constitutes a nation of Lwa, with its own Lwa such as Rasine
Makaya, Twa Ile, Fanm Sala, Baton Fatwa, & so forth. Also there are
many Lwa of the Ginea tradition who are also served in Makaya (& a
few Makaya Lwa who are served in Ginea tradition also) such as Bawon,
Simbi, Kalfou, Lemba, & Gwan Bwa to name just a few.
Makaya is in fact part of the order of secret societies of Haiti as
others called Bizango, Kalinda, Gad Makandal, etc. The Makaya line
tends to be smaller though & apposed to the Bizango houses. They also
tend to be more or less in conflict depending on where you go. The area
above Port-au-Prince, Kwa de Bouke/ Laplaine area tends to be fairly
active as far as Makaya. These communities tend to be large &, not
surprisingly, Bizango is not so well represented here. In truth, the
variances between Makaya & Bizango are not so great. In my opinion,
it is more a matter of politics than anything else.
I once attended a Makaya service near Te` Wouj where the Boko`,
having many clients in New York & elsewhere, gave a grand service,
spending much $$$ for his Lwa. LOL What a time that was, & to be
honest this was one of the more frightening situations for me….well
perhaps frighten is to strong a wrod, but I was definitely unnerved
to the core by what I saw this night.
Makaya is "hot". That is to say very aggressive. Not all people can
handle Makaya. Not all people should try to handle it. Many Houngan &
Manbo are simply Ginea tradition. That is to say: Vodou. Others must
have both because this is the demand of their Spirit. To have these
things implies the will to use them. Many people get a gun, & when
asked why they have that gun reply, "Well I want to defend myself."
No, they should want to kill someone. They say, "Well, Ill just soot
them in the knees." No, they should be prepared to "shoot to kill" if
they need to shoot at all. This is a very good description of the
fierceness of this tradition. It is designed, among other things, for
offense/defense & in a most aggressive manner. For example: my guards
are done on the point of a particularly viscious Makaya Djab.
My "deal" with this Djab is that is I am attacked by a certain
caliber of person, or by use of certain means, that this Djab is
simply to go & kill them. Sounds harsh? Well to be honest, I don't
see the point in "poking" back at someone trying to harm me or mine,
so I just as soon get them out of the way altogether. It is not *MY*
responsibility since, if the attacker does nothing, they will receive
nothing.
The rites have their own initiation, their own language by which they
are recognized, pass words & so forth. In my house in LaPlaine, the
Makaya rites every Xmas, as last Xmas, are very impressive. The
entire society standing there in their red- red/ black/ green robes
with lit candles, sending the point in the courtyard is MOST
impressive. I will be sorry to miss them as they will go on next week.
<sigh>
Much of the tradition also involves "work" & by this we mean wanga to
accomplish all sorts of work. The word wanga itself is of Kongo
origin & comes from the Bantu traditions of Wangate`. The Wangate` is
a word having the same meaning as Boko`, that is to say a
practitioner of these arts, or someone who "makes wanga".
This is about all I know to say on this subject. Any questions? I
will try & anwer them for you guys if I can.
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
No, no NO! The word Makaya is East African, and in
fact "Makaya" is a common enough family name in
Zimbabwe.
> the Makaya tradition, as far as being open to
>inquiry, is about the same place that Palo was in the late 50's: very
>closed. You cannot get people to speak much about this tradition.
Maybe YOU can't! LOL! There is nothing especially
"closed" about the Makaya denomination, any more than
the Vodou denomination is closed. It's just less known
to non-Haitians, that's all. I've been participating in
Makaya houses since 1990.
>However, I can give you an over view as I understand it & from
>dealing with my own papa fey who has a Makaya house.
Your Papa is Yabofe Bon Houngan, you ungrateful
wretch. No matter how you or I feel about him, he is
the man who gave you the asson, YOU SAY *HIS*
NAME, DAMMIT. Yabofe does NOT have a Makaya
house.
>Contrary to certain statements from misguided Manbo, the rhythms used
>in Makaya rites ARE in fact of Kongo origin
NAH! There is a sound file of Makaya rhythm available
at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5319/makaya_doba.htm
I can play both Makaya and Kongo rhythms, thanks to
the infinite patience of my drum teacher Ti-Djo, and the
two rhythms are very different.
>This is the Madoule, a coffin, the contents of which I am not
>even sure of because, as I said, I have not yet been initiated in the
>strictest sense, rather only received guards.
Even if you are accepted into a Makaya house you
won't know anything about the Sekey Madoule, the
sacred coffin, because that belongs to the Sanpwel.
>Makaya is in fact part of the order of secret societies of Haiti as
>others called Bizango, Kalinda, Gad Makandal, etc.
Wrong again. I really wish you would stop spreading all
this misinformation.
Look, the secret societies of Haiti are generally referred
to as the Sanpwel. Makandal, who was a historical
personality, is one of Haiti's national heros, and a lot
of his resistance work (against the French colonial
slavers) was done through the Sanpwel, which is why we
have the nickname Makandal.
The Sanpwel is NOT a religious order, it is something
like the Knights of Columbus in relation to the Catholic
church. At our best, we function as a law enforcement
society, we catch thieves and enforce cultural norms.
When we have meetings, we conduct religious services,
and the name for that service is the Bizango.
Many members of the Sanpwel are Makaya Bokors, so
that can be a source of confusion. Prominent Mambos
and Houngans, major landowners, anyone of importance
in a community, may be invited to join the Sanpwel.
The existance of the Sanpwel is no secret, it's what we
DO that is a secret, our passwords and so on, and also
any actions we take.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
> > Makaya comes mostly straight out the Kongo.
> Makaya comes mostly straight out the Kongo.
>>>No, no NO! The word Makaya is East African, and in
fact "Makaya" is a common enough family name in
Zimbabwe.<<<
This is YOUR opinion. Makaya is found in any standard Bantu dictionary
as meaning "Leaves"....as in what is in Makout Lemba? Moron.
> the Makaya tradition, as far as being open to
>inquiry, is about the same place that Palo was in the late 50's: very
>closed. You cannot get people to speak much about this tradition.
>>>Maybe YOU can't! LOL! There is nothing especially
"closed" about the Makaya denomination, any more than
the Vodou denomination is closed. It's just less known
to non-Haitians, that's all. I've been participating in
Makaya houses since 1990.<<<
Silly woman, I didnt mean for me & I was speaking about in the diaspo.
Mind your business nutcase.
>However, I can give you an over view as I understand it & from
>dealing with my own papa fey who has a Makaya house.
>>>Your Papa is Yabofe Bon Houngan, you ungrateful
wretch. No matter how you or I feel about him, he is
the man who gave you the asson, YOU SAY *HIS*
NAME, DAMMIT. Yabofe does NOT have a Makaya
house.<<<
My papa ason is Yabofe`, my papa fey is Jou ma Lonje, & *HE* has a
Makaya house. You do NOT know what you are talking about her Ratsine,
so shut up. I have no desire to speak of this to you further because
you are a moron & dont know any better.
>Contrary to certain statements from misguided Manbo, the rhythms used
>in Makaya rites ARE in fact of Kongo origin
>>>NAH! There is a sound file of Makaya rhythm available
at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5319/makaya_doba.htm
I can play both Makaya and Kongo rhythms, thanks to
the infinite patience of my drum teacher Ti-Djo, and the
two rhythms are very different.<<<
We are speaking of "origins" here Ratsine...not what is "labelled"
kongo or Makaya or Petwo. LOL YOu are so silly, & you just dont know.
The 2 majour rhtyhms of Petwo: Boumba & Kita are KONGO! What you have
to say? Nothing.
>This is the Madoule, a coffin, the contents of which I am not
>even sure of because, as I said, I have not yet been initiated in the
>strictest sense, rather only received guards.
>>>Even if you are accepted into a Makaya house you
won't know anything about the Sekey Madoule, the
sacred coffin, because that belongs to the Sanpwel.<<<
In LaPlaine, these 2 words are used all but interchangably. makaya is
the rite, Sanpwel are the people who practice this *rite* What you have
to say? Nothing. Blowing air.
>Makaya is in fact part of the order of secret societies of Haiti as
>others called Bizango, Kalinda, Gad Makandal, etc.
>>>Wrong again. I really wish you would stop spreading all
this misinformation.<<<
Nope, not wrong. The fact that you THINK you know....the fact that you
claim this lie about initiation into Wozenfe`....your BOGUS Ratsine.
You dont know....you dont the connection because why? Well, you are a
moron of course.
>>>Look, the secret societies of Haiti are generally referred
to as the Sanpwel. Makandal, who was a historical
personality, is one of Haiti's national heros, and a lot
of his resistance work (against the French colonial
slavers) was done through the Sanpwel, which is why we
have the nickname Makandal.<<<
Boy, you dont get out near as much as you claim. Go to Bo Po....you
will find Gad Makandal. You will not find Bizango...save as it is
called, what? Gad Makandal. LOL Ratsine is lost here.
>>>The Sanpwel is NOT a religious order, it is something
like the Knights of Columbus in relation to the Catholic
church. At our best, we function as a law enforcement
society, we catch thieves and enforce cultural norms.<<<
& the fact that you are NOT inside is proven by your lack of
understanding of the ancestral lines kept in the societies.
<snip>...all the other babble.
Your understanding is flaud Ratsine.
houngan...@my-deja.com
> In article <20001220170452...@ng-mc1.aol.com>,
> raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) spat:
>>>>>>Your Papa is Yabofe Bon Houngan, you ungrateful
wretch. No matter how you or I feel about him, he is
the man who gave you the asson, YOU SAY *HIS*
NAME, DAMMIT. Yabofe does NOT have a Makaya
house.<<<
Ratsine, you are a moron. Papa Danise is my PAPA ASON. Papa fey mwe se
Sorel Fenelon- Bo Houngan Jou Ma Lonje.
Do I need to post my lineage here for all to see? My ENTIRE LINEAGE
from LaMesi forward? Is that what I need to do?
Will it make lil' Ratsine Pouwi boo-boo happy wappys?
<phuuhg!> Tastes like ass; I wonder why.
What say ye?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Tastes like ass
LOL! You oughta know!
Listen, I tell you again, your constant swearing and
cursing and filthy language is disgusting. You need to
have more respect for me, for the participants of this
newsgroup, and frankly, for yourself.
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
>>>Listen, I tell you again, your constant swearing and
cursing and filthy language is disgusting. You need to
have more respect for me, for the participants of this
newsgroup, and frankly, for yourself.<<<
You know, in reality you are correct...at least almost. It is
disrespectful of me to drag this out on this forum. But understand me
that I have no respect for you Kathy. For what? You are a hateful, evil
woman who causes everyone you come in contact with nothing but giyon &
grief. What have you dont to deserve respect of anyone much less me?
H.A.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> But understand me
>that I have no respect for you Kathy. For what? You are a hateful, evil
>woman
Aboudja, you know what? Despite the fact that I find you...
well, something less than admirable, I have never followed
you from forum to forum, lying on you, making filthy obscene
remarks to you, and so on. Instead, I have repeatedly insisted
that you do indeed have the asson, and that it doesn't matter
that you are white rather than black, gay rather than straight,
Texan rather than Haitian... I have refrained from proving you
a liar by posting my emails to you, because I knew that the
consequences would be humiliating to you in more ways
than one.
Listen, no matter what you do, no matter how many lies
you tell, no matter how many stories you make up,
no matter how many people you claim to know or not know,
I am still a happy successful person with a beautiful peristyle,
a growing society, the support of the Vodouisant community
of Jacmel... and a Master's degree, a professional career, the
respect of my associates in the areas of public health and
immigration law, a decent bank balance, and so on. I know
it galls you that I am happy and successful, why else would
you behave as you do? God knows I have done nothing to
you and taken nothing from you, all the nastiness and spitefulness
in your heart comes from you, not from me.
So Aboudja, I would seriously suggest that you spend a little
time examining yourself and your hatefulness, and have a talk
with God about it. You can't tell me that you are proud of
yourself for your behavior, after all.
I sincerely wish you happy holidays.
In the year 2001, my resolution is not to be drawn into the
cesspool of nastiness that you and a few others are drowning
in, and to maintain a positive, loving attitude toward my
fellow voyagers on this planet.
sou...@my-deja.com
little electricity, I don't have time to read all the posts...
However.let me give you a little hint about the Makaya rite.
Makaya is secret society. Which means trees, nature, mountains,
maroons. Liberation. Change. I gather, from reading you, that change is
important for you. You should be interested in the Makaya. Beware,
however, because it's quick and can imply jumping the necessary phases
of learning. One always needs to learn. Do not sacrifice knowledge to
expediency.
As for Congo being non-welcome at Makaya, that is hogwash. Makaya, it
is well known, is largely derived from Kongo. All Kongo is at home in
Makaya. People who know nothing should keep quiet.
In silence.
In article <91q8rb$r8d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Kevin Filan <raksh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
--
Soutini
http://host.awwm.com/soutini/
www.freeyellow.com/members5/lamitie/index.html
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Makaya is secret society.
No it is NOT. Right now, anyone on this list can hop on a plane
and go to Haiti and attend Makaya services, they are open to
the public just like Vodou services. I went to any number of
Makaya dances before I was initiated. I wish people would stop
trying to puff themselves up by being mysterious about things
that are no mystery.
>As for Congo being non-welcome at Makaya, that is hogwash. Makaya, it
>is well known, is largely derived from Kongo.
Again, not true. More than once I have been told by Makaya
bokors, when I asked, "How come you don't play some Kongo
rhythms, I love Kongo, how come there was no Kongo portion
in the dance last night?", I got sort of glum responses like, "No,
we don't do that", or "Don't ask us for that, we don't use that here."
It wasn't just at one house, either, or I would think that it was
just unique to one Bokor's practice.
There was at one point an uprising of Kongo Africans in the Artibonite
region, and the details are unclear in my memory, but I am checking
into it again.
Also, historians of the colonial period noted that Kongo people
were often despised *by other African ethnic groups* as being
traitorous, theivish, and untrustworthy when planning acts of
resistance - it was felt by other African that Kongo people were the
most likely to "sell out" other Africans. I don't know if that was
really true of Kongo people or not, but these reports are in the
literature of the day.
houngan...@my-deja.com
sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
One` e tout wespe bel Manbo.
Mesi anpil pou pawol ou yo apwopo Sevis Makaya. You are correct (of
course) about Makaya & the Kongo, & *I* thank you for supporting the
point. Certain people confuse rhythms such as Kongo Payet, or Rada-
Kongo with THE Kongo Itself & with the influences it has had. This
shows lack of understanding beyond what is superficial.
Hope your Holidays are great! Wish I was there with you.
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>You are correct (of
>course) about Makaya & the Kongo
I don't think so. Makaya is an East African word, there are families
in Zimbabwe with the last name Makaya, and places in
Zimbawe with the name Makaya.
Furthermore, the place name in Haiti which includes "Makaya"
is "Pik Makaya", a mountain which is a national park in Haiti,
and it is located far from the centers of Kongo population in
Haiti.
Of course, unlike Mark "Aboudja" Moellendorf, I don't know
everything and haven't been everywhere, and I don't just cut
and paste a lot of arcane stuff out of books by Rigaud and
Metraux, who were not intiates anyway.
I base my opinions on thirteen years of experience in Haiti,
ten of those years as a Mambo asogwe. Of course the readers
of this newsgroup are free to believe what they will, but based
on my experience I differentiate between Makaya and Kongo
for the following reasons:
1) Kongo drum rhythms are rejected in the many Makaya peristyles
where I have attended services.
2) Kongo drum rhythms and Makaya drum rhythms are different -
I can play both, and they are not at all similar.
3) There are no lwa in common between the Kongo rite and the
Makaya. If there was, say, a lwa that is served in both rites, then
that might (or might not) indicate a common origin, especially if
that lwa was served nowhere else but in those two traditions... but
there is no such lwa.
Typically Kongo lwa include Kongo Savanne and La Reine Kongo,
and also an interesting entity that I have observed only in the Kongo
center of Sucrie, called "Sep", who apparently mounts people only
to punish them for misdeeds. The individuals thus mounted fall
to the ground and become rigid with paralysis. Interestingly, they
are almost always adolescents or young men and women.
Typical Makaya lwa include Simbi Makaya, and interestingly
enough Lemba, which is neither Kongo nor East African in origin,
but West African; also Petro lwa including Erzulie Dantor. These
lwa are not served in Kongo services, and Kongo Savanne and
La Reine Kongo are not served in Makaya services.
4) The "tone", the "feeling" of the two branches are very different.
Kongo songs refer often to prayer, to polite greetings, to
Guinea. Makaya songs, on the other hand, often refer to aggressive
magic, personal power, and fighting enemies. Here are a few
well-known songs:
KONGO
a) Kongo, Kongo, Kongo ede m priye,
m pa gen maman, pa gen papa,
Kongo ede m priye
Kongo, Kongo, Kongo help me pray,
I have no mother, I have no father
Kongo kelp me pray.
b) Bonswa map di O!
Bonswa map di O,
La Ren Kongo nan baye,
Bonswa map di O!
Good evening I say oh!
Good evening I say oh,
The Kongo Queen is at the gate,
Good evening I say, oh!
c) Nan Gine gen lwa, se lwa Kongo ki lwa mwen,
Nan Gine gen lwa, se lwa Kongo ki lwa mwen,
Nan Gine m te ye,
Se lwa Kongo a ki lwa mwen.
In Guinea there are lwa, it's the Kongo lwa which are my lwa,
In Guinea there are lwa, it's the Kongo lwa which are my lwa,
I was in Guinea,
It's the Kongo lwa which are my lwa.
MAKAYA
a) Papa Simbi, Simbi Makaya,
Houngan pa Bondye, ou pa we
m ilimine pou moun yo.
M achte balen nan, se pou m pale a pwen mwen.
M achte balen nan, se pou m pale a djab mwen.
Papa Simbi, Simbi Makaya,
Houngan pa Bondye, ou pa we
M ilimine pou moun yo.
Papa Simbi, Simbi Makaya,
A Houngan is not God, don't you see,
I illuminate for those people (light candles to complain and
work against people who are bothering me)
I buy my candle, it is for me to speak with my point.
I buy my candle, it is for me to speak with my djab.
Papa Simbi, Simbi Makaya,
A Houngan is not God, don't you see,
I illuminate for those people
Here is a more recent one:
b) Se lajan mwen, se lajan pwen nan,
Se lajan mwen, se lajan pwen nan,
Makaya di konsa, O! Jou m bwe di galon kleren
Se lajan mwen.
M rele, m achte pwen a,
M rele m rele, m achte pwen a,
Makaya di konsa, O! Jou m bwe di galon kleren
Se lajan mwen.
It's my money, it's the point's money,
It's my money, it's the point's money,
Makaya says this, oh! The day I drink ten gallons of kleren,
It's my money.
I cried, I bought the point,
I cried and cried, I bought the point,
Makaya says this, oh! The day I drink ten gallons of kleren,
It's my money.
(Meaning, the money I have obtained through a magical
contract with this dangerous point is mine to do with as I
wish, even if I were to drink ten gallons of raw rum.)
c) Simbi Makaya, m pral nan Semetye,
Rele Malolo, elmi barre mwen!
Simbi Makaya, m pral nan Semetye,
Rele Malolo, elmi barre mwen!
A hey Simbi Makaya, a hey! Elmi bare mwen.
Simbi Makaya, I am going to the Cemetery,
Call Malolo, Enemies bar my way!
Simbi Makaya, I am going to the Cemetery,
Call Malolo, Enemies bar my way!
A hey Simbi Makaya! A hey! Enemies bar my way!
5) The dance steps of Kongo and Makaya are different as well.
Kongo steps are more sinuous, more flowing, while Makaya
steps are much more rapid, more staccato.
sou...@my-deja.com
houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91uchv$8g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
One ak wespe pou ou tou.
As soon as I get back to the States, I will have time to answer my
email, here I am using the computer of a friend and I am limited. Yet
lets continue our Konbit!
Happy New Year to you Aboudja.
> One` e tout wespe bel Manbo.
>
> Mesi anpil pou pawol ou yo apwopo Sevis Makaya. You are correct (of
> course) about Makaya & the Kongo, & *I* thank you for supporting the
> point. Certain people confuse rhythms such as Kongo Payet, or Rada-
> Kongo with THE Kongo Itself & with the influences it has had. This
> shows lack of understanding beyond what is superficial.
>
> Hope your Holidays are great! Wish I was there with you.
>
> Ayibobo-
> Houngan Aboudja
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
--
Soutini
http://host.awwm.com/soutini/
www.freeyellow.com/members5/lamitie/index.html
mambo...@my-deja.com
> > In article <91uchv$8g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Yet
> lets continue our Konbit!
Yes, and why don't you do so by addressing the five specific points
I have raised as to why I do not believe that Makaya is derived
from Kongo. You might also want to post and translate songs and
liturgical excerpts to support your point of view.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
houngan...@my-deja.com
sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91vmrs$76r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>One ak wespe pou ou tou.<<<
>>>As soon as I get back to the States, I will have time to answer my
email, here I am using the computer of a friend and I am limited. Yet
lets continue our Konbit!<<<
Wi Manbo, sentamen! Enben kouwaj e na pale pita.
Hougan Aboudja
houngan...@my-deja.com
mambo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>I don't think so. Makaya is an East African word, there are
families in Zimbabwe with the last name Makaya, and places in
Zimbawe with the name Makaya.<<<
You seem to think Africa is monolithic in culture Kathy. Given the
nature of the rites & work in Makaya, not to mention the complete lack
of other influences in Ginea tradition from East Africa or
in “Zimbabwe”, Makaya as a Bantu word seems more likely, not to mention
appropriate given the very nature of Makaya rites.
>>>Furthermore, the place name in Haiti which includes "Makaya" is "Pik
Makaya", a mountain which is a national park in Haiti, and it is
located far from the centers of Kongo population in Haiti.<<<
This actually proves nothing. What was your point again?
>>>Of course, unlike Mark "Aboudja" Moellendorf, I don't know
everything and haven't been everywhere, and I don't just cut
and paste a lot of arcane stuff out of books by Rigaud and Metraux, who
were not intiates anyway.<<<
LOL You think? I challenge you Kathy. Show US ALL from where you get
this idea, please. What book, what page? You just cant stand that *you*
are not in step, can you? You yourself are just full of book nonsense,
including much about Sanpwel, which you claim initiation in, but are
not. All you know came from Wade Davis. As for Rigaurd, my opinion of
him is low. I assure you, you are mistaken. Not to mention the stuff
you get from Jambalaya by sister Teish & pass as traditional. LOL
Again, I have NEVER claimed to know it all. But what I do know, I know
well. You can’t say the same Kathy. These pot shots make you look bad
anyway. Kathy fou, ou gen youn djol bouke e pa youn moun swanye sa’k ou
pale. Manbo deraye`, ale.
>>>I base my opinions on thirteen years of experience in Haiti, ten of
those years as a Mambo asogwe. Of course the readers
of this newsgroup are free to believe what they will, but based on my
experience I differentiate between Makaya and Kongo
for the following reasons:<<<
>>>1) Kongo drum rhythms are rejected in the many Makaya peristyles
where I have attended services.<<<
>>>2) Kongo drum rhythms and Makaya drum rhythms are different - I can
play both, and they are not at all similar.<<<
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Key words, “...the readers of this newsgroup are free to believe what
they will.” This goes towards credibility, or lack there-of.
Again, what you call Kongo rhythms & drums is NOT what we are speaking
about here. The origin of the Makaya rhythms, largely derived/ related
to Petwo ARE of Kongo origin. The Boumba & Kita rhythms are MOST
common, & they ARE of Kongo origin. (period).
Try again.
>>>....and interestingly enough Lemba, which is neither Kongo nor East
African in origin, but West African;<<<
Wrong!!!!! Oh my goodness! What a careless blunder! Gason Lemba is
absolutely KONGO, & IS CALLED BY THIS SAME NAME IN THE KONGO today!!!
He is found there with the same character traits, function & form! LOL
This is the same spirit in Palo in Cuba called Lucero! You are lost
Kathy. What a poor attempt....
Plus I have this Lwa! LOL I assure you, you dont know what you are
talking about!
Perhaps you are thinking of Lenglensou? This is a Lwa Daomen indeed,
but not at all the same as Lemba. LOL Jeez!
>>>also Petro lwa including Erzulie Dantor. These lwa are not served
in Kongo services, and Kongo Savanne and
La Reine Kongo are not served in Makaya services.<<<
NO, they are served (as are many Kongo originating Lwa) in Petwo rites.
In Makaya, Lwa such as Rasine Makaya, Twa Ile, Fanm Sala, Baton Fatwa,
Lowan Danje`, Shouket Lawouze, & so forth are served. What is your
point again?
>>>4) The "tone", the "feeling" of the two branches are very different.
Kongo songs refer often to prayer, to polite greetings, to
Guinea. Makaya songs, on the other hand, often refer to aggressive
magic, personal power, and fighting enemies. Here are a few
well-known songs:<<<
Blah blah blah….
>>>5) The dance steps of Kongo and Makaya are different as well. Kongo
steps are more sinuous, more flowing, while Makaya
steps are much more rapid, more staccato.<<<
Again you are confusing Kongo rhythms or things which are called Kongo
in Haiti with “things of traceable or obvious Kongo origin”.
Kongo Payet is the rhythm that you describe as “sinuous” Kathy, but
that is one of 8+ variations of Kongo rhythm. Petwo rhythms, which are
played in Makaya houses, are almost all easily ID’d as of Kongo origin.
Boumba....Kita....How do I know? This is not my knowledge, but that of
the accomplish Ginea drummer (initiated Met Hounto) & ethnomusicologist
Eric D. (no I am not going to give you his name), who is my good
friend.
Even your vaunted Gerdes Fleurant (who knows Eric & has LEARNED MUCH
FROM HIM) will tell you this very same thing. You claim to know him so
well. Go ask him.
Then come back & correct yourself here.
Again Kathy….lets get this clear cause’ your boring me….we are speaking
of ORIGINS here...not what is called Kongo or not in Haiti. You are
looking at the superficiality Kathy, not the deeper correspondences.
This is typical of your lack of depth of understanding of things, your
lack of konesans, & again what I mean when I speak of “reading between
the lines”.
Out of order...as usual....
Houngan Aboudja
As for Manbo Soutini answering you herself....I am sure she will.
olo...@my-deja.com
houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
Axe!
> >>>....and interestingly enough Lemba, which is neither Kongo nor East
> African in origin, but West African;<<<
>
> Wrong!!!!! Oh my goodness! What a careless blunder! Gason Lemba is
> absolutely KONGO, & IS CALLED BY THIS SAME NAME IN THE KONGO today!!!
> He is found there with the same character traits, function & form! LOL
> This is the same spirit in Palo in Cuba called Lucero!
I do not know anything about Palo (Lucero), but Lemba is a very known
Inkice in the Bantu tradition in Brazil (Angola). Also researchers that
are going to Angola now, find it still very much praised there.
Just my two cents.
Maria de Oxala
houngan...@my-deja.com
olo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>do not know anything about Palo (Lucero), but Lemba is a very known
Inkice in the Bantu tradition in Brazil (Angola). Also researchers that
are going to Angola now, find it still very much praised there.<<
One` Iya,
LOL Please...your 2 cents (worth more than that certainly) are welcome.
Again, the connections are fascinating. It is unfortuante that people
just dont pay attention to them. I have always said, & as is my nature
as a child of Danbala,....it is ALL in the details! We simply must pay
attention to them.
Many of these things which people assume "are lost in their
origins"....that cannot be traced....CAN, if only we look in our own
backyard(s). To go look in Africa often confuses....go look in the
backyard: Brazil, Cuba, Trinidad, Haiti, & so forth to compare, & we
can learn MUCH that would otherwise be missed.
Thanks again Iya.
Best,
Houngan Aboudja
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Given the
>nature of the rites & work in Makaya, not to mention the complete lack
>of other influences in Ginea tradition from East Africa or
>in “Zimbabwe”, Makaya as a Bantu word seems more likely
Don't be so sure!
First of all, there are almost 100 Bantu languages,
including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural
generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. So if
anyone is acting like Africa is "monolithic in culture" it is
you.
The Encyclopedia Encarta informs us, in fact, that early
in their history, the Bantu split into two major linguistic
branches—the Eastern and Western Bantu. The Eastern
Bantu migrated through present-day Zimbabwe and
Mozambique, down to South Africa. The Western Bantu
moved into what is now Angola, Namibia, and
northwestern Botswana.
Now, I read that the Lemba tribe was located in West
Africa, I remember seeing the name on the map of Africa
right on the west coast north of the Gambia. That book
reported that the Lemba were particularly skilled in
medicine and the healing arts - and interestingly, in one
very large Makaya compound I know of, there is a
peristyle dedicated to the lwa Lemba, where sick people
are treated. But I can't remember the title of this book,
and so therefore I gave up on that for the time being and
went to other sources which gave me something different
and altogtether fascinating! First we have:
"the Lemba of the northern Transvaal. Until quite
recently, the Lemba had a propensity for building in
stone - in Zimbabwean style, without cement. In
addition, their metalwork was far superior to that of
surrounding tribes (although gold was no longer available
to them; instead, the Lemba mined and used copper). Of
course, even as early as the 18th century, the standard
of Lemba workmanship was not at the level manifested
by the buildings and gold ornaments found at Great
Zimbabwe. (Based on a letter sent to Scientific
American by David L. McNaughton.)
Then we have the University of Michigan site, which
gives the Lemba as a "tribe living in S. Africa... Oral tradition of having
been led out of Judea to
Africa".
I do not find any references at all to the word "lemba" or
the Lemba people having any relationship to the Kongo.
The word Lemba may perhaps refer to two different
groups of people, there are after all thousands of African
ethnic groups - or perhaps the writer of that book the title
of which I can not remember was wrong. But there
certainly seems to be plenty of evidence to support the
existance of Lemba people in Zimbabwe and other areas
of East Africa. Now of course all of this supports my
belief that Makaya is East African in origin.
>Key words, “...the readers of this newsgroup are free to
>believe what they will.” This goes towards credibility, or
>lack there-of.
That's right! When confronted with a choice between an
educated woman with thirteen years of experience in
Haiti and a man who can't even express himself in
writing without a multitute of spelling and grammatical
errors, and who, more importantly, has only had the
asson for a year, I know who I would choose. But in any
case, I am not insisting, as you do, that I am right about
everything all the time. I am citing my *reasons*, based
on my long *experience*, for believing that the Makaya
rite is NOT Kongo in origin.
I congratulate myself that I am able to give good reasons
for my beliefs, and I am able to express them without
resorting to personal invective and insults. I don't have to
use those tactics to win the argument, after all.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
sou...@my-deja.com
> I have raised as to why I do not believe that Makaya is derived
> from Kongo. You might also want to post and translate songs and
> liturgical excerpts to support your point of view.
Your level of knowledge concerning Vodou is really pathetic and frankly
a shame for all vodouists on this earth. I cringe reading your
authoritative posts and feel sorry for your initiates as well as for
Vodoun in general which, in the present state of things, is obliged to
stand up for such low-level authorities as you project yourself to be.
For the benefit of our readers, seeing as your interpretations have
already been sent on the "world wide web", we just have to make a few
points.
1) Makaya : In Congo land, it is perfectly clear that Makaya means
leaves and by extension the forest. It is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS to
postulate that Makaya is not Congo and even the discussion is a joke.
2) LOL! "Pik Makaya is out of Congo territory in Haiti"! Give us a
break, pleeeeeasssse (as you would say). Everybody knows that the
entire southern peninsula is Congo territory in Haiti and particularly
the Grande Anse area which was renown as Congo maroon territories. The
reason, my dear, is that this is where coffee and cocoa was grown and
so contrasting with the plantation economy of the North and the West,
in the South only small plantations existed and this towards the later
colonial period in which Congo slaves principally were being shipped to
the island. For more detail please read Carolyn Fick "The Making of
Haiti". (And, ohlala, the national park --- which was decreed such
about five years ago, pleaaaaaasssse!).
3) Of course, of course, you don't know everything. Actually, reading
you, it's quite apparent you know hardly anything, to not say nothing
at all. Please refrain from backbiting, it's a very ugly habit,
especially concerning recent initiates working hard to feed our lwa.
AND worse yet, backbiting on our forerunners, please, this is very bad.
Mr. Rigaud (Milo) took trucks regularly with his wife to be present in
all the major lakou that today benefit of his tracks to follow, as a
ressource. All vodouists who date that far back (the 30's) remember his
memory as a great initiate and houngan. Please do not badmouth in your
silliness these memories. You are really pathetic with your miserable
thirteen little years of policing and politiking occupation.
4)To get back to the matter of our readers. It seems that you are
confusing the Congo "folklore" with the Congo substance of the Vodou
tradition. That's so funny. I can see you thinking "Congo" and seeing
the pretty girls of the Olofsonn waving their arms and scarves and
dancing Congo Larose, i.e. Congo Paillette. It's difficult, we
understand, for foreigners to penetrate such seemingly basic knowledge
in haitian society. wow. ok, let's take it from the start.
a) The Congo Paillette/Larose is a recreational danse of festive nature
and relatively autonomous of religious service. It is true that there
is a Kongo Queen who can possess in those circumstances but it is
before all a "rejouissance", aka banboch. But there is positively no
lwa called Kongo Savann, this term being used to refer to (how
bizarre!) a whole Zandor, secret society, escort of lwa (which,
clearly, you are only presently being introduced to... oh well).
b) Now, the real Congo rite is one of forest, makaya, leave, maji.
Magic. And it precedes the step towards Makaya per se, i.e. advance
towards Society. Simbi Makaya, besides, is one of those "crossing"
spirits. Very many Simbis are of this nature. Let us pursue further,
for example, Simbi Ganga who is served at Nan Soukri, as is... (hold
your breath).... Ganga BIZANGO... what is this indicative of, my dear?
You're in a very sorry state and with such arrogance only on the
internet will you ever learn anything.
c) So Simbi, Ganga, and others are simultaneously Congo and Makaya. Who
else? All the Boumba spirits, the Kita spirits, the Zando spirits.
These are entire escorts of spirits. It's very clear that your drumming
teacher deliberately misleads you.
d) And, you poor thing, "sep" is by no means a spirit. Everyone, but
EVERYONE, at the sacred lakou of Soukri, Souvenance, Badjo... knows
perfectly that "sep" is a punishment inflicted by any spirit to people,
like you, who are out of line. So where are seps origins. From the
colonial practice of closing the two legs of a slave in a wooden
apparatus (referred to as cep) thus immobilizing the slave for a number
of days. A painful punishment which continues to exist symbolically in
the tradition of the haitian people. (Cep btw in french simply means
driftwood).
***
Kathy Grey, this is I think, definitely enough to demonstrate the level
of ignorance of the monumentalities that you post on the web and I
sincerely hope your initiates will note your dismal stupidity, your
foolishness, what an embarrassement you are for us all who fight for
the recognition of our sacred traditions. We can but hope that the
marasa, the dead, the Ginen will offer you the looking-glass that one
day will reflect you the image of such ugliness and lowliness.
It's not worth continuing teaching you such basic knowledge because the
way you go about asking for information is much too disrespectful,
cheap and, to be frank, full of shit.
Bye bye.
pee-wee (who may, or may not, be a mambo...)!
This is from an ant passing by ....
--
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Your level of knowledge concerning Vodou is really pathetic and frankly
>a shame for all vodouists on this earth.
And your level of knowledge is indicated by - what? Your
ability to utter slurs and curse words? Your inability to write
a cogent post without allowing your personal feelings to
overwhelm your ability to perceive simple facts?
I don't agree with your baseless opinions about the possible
origins of Makaya rites. I base my beliefs on facts, you base
yours on... what? A lot of wanking and wailing and invective,
which proves... nothing. Look, SoTiny, your basis for most
of your remarks seems to be the fact that you can swear
and utter slurs while you make them. I, on the other hand,
can point to generally accepted reference works to back
up observations from my *experience*. Sorry you can't say
the same.
Now, let us suppose that both you, with whatever degree you
have (did you attend university) and I (Master of Science, UMASS)
were both invited to speak at a meeting of academicians
and scholars in the field of the Afro-Caribbean religious
diaspora. Which of us do you think would gain the respect
of our audience?
>I can see you thinking "Congo" and seeing
>the pretty girls of the Olofsonn waving their arms and scarves and
>dancing Congo Larose, i.e. Congo Paillette.
I haven't had the privilege of seeing the folkloric dancers
of the Oloffson, however, I have heard the Kongo songs
I describe at the peristyles of many Houngans and Mambos.
You can make up as many names and blow as much smoke
as you want, the Makaya rite is not Kongo in origin,
and that is the topic of the thread, not how uneducated and
foolish you want to make yourself look - oh, and did I mention
unrefined, coarse, and vulgar?
houngan...@my-deja.com
Africa, I remember seeing the name on the map of Africa
right on the west coast north of the Gambia.<<<
Nope, Lemba is a Kongo tribe....known for their fierce magcks & healing
arts. Interestingly enough, we note that in the North of haiti, they do
not reference Petwo....but call it Lemba instead. In the Ki-Kongo
dialect....excuse me, in MOST Ki-Kongo dialects, the word "Lemba" means
to "appease".
>>>I congratulate myself that I am able to give good reasons
for my beliefs, and I am able to express them without
resorting to personal invective and insults. I don't have to
use those tactics to win the argument, after all.<<<
Im sure you do congradulate yourself Kathy. You have a looooonnnnnggggg
history of such grandios egocentrism. Thats what soooooo very many
people just LOVE about you! LOL
H.A.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>>>>I congratulate myself that I am able to give good reasons
>for my beliefs, and I am able to express them without
>resorting to personal invective and insults. I don't have to
>use those tactics to win the argument, after all.<<<
>
>Im sure you do congradulate yourself Kathy. You have a looooonnnnnggggg
>history of such grandios egocentrism.
I am sorry that you feel that citing scholarly sources which support
my beliefs indicates g-r-an--d-i-o-s-e egocentrism. I remain in
doubt about any West African "Lemba" tribe simply because I
can not remember the title of the book in which I found this
information, but there can be no question that there is indeed a
"Lemba" nation in East Africa, verifiable by no lesser sources
than the Smithsonian Institute and the Encyclopedia Encarta.
I have been unable, however, to find any souces which indicate that
there is a "Lemba" tribe in the Congo region of Africa.
It may be that the word is used in more than one language, and means
more than one thing. In English, for example, "polish" is something
one uses to shine the floor, while "Polish" refers to a nationality
of Europeans. With the thousands of dialects and languages spoken
in Africa, I would not be surprised if the syllables "lem-ba" mean
more than one thing in more than one place.
Now, Aboudja, I must rebuke you for using phony names to post
your invective on Voodoo...@egroups.com, from which, as you
know, you have been banned by your own initiatory brother, the
British author Ross Heaven (Bon Houngan Reve We Chemen Ginen).
He gave you plenty of chances and you just wouldn't respect the
limits of polite discourse, which led to him becoming very angry
with you and so forth. Instead of leaving his board in peace, you
now resort to bogus screen names to make posts which you know
he will not tolerate. Since I am now assisting Ross to moderate
his board, as he is very busy with his next book (the preface of which,
by the way, I have been invited to write), I am deleting your post
there - not because of the opinions you express concerning Makaya,
but rather because of the vulgar invective you use to express those
opinions. Individuals who forward such stuff for you will also shortly
find themselves losing the privilege to post there.
I continue to pray for you, Mark. I sincerely wish you healing,
and happy holidays, and I hope that you will one day harmonize
yourself with the principles of our house and with the rest of
my happy, contented initiates - in fact, I will be making more
initiates in January and they all seem to be creative, intelligent,
mentally stable individuals. Some of my past initiates will also
be attending the January 2001 Kanzo, and I expect that they
will be honored by the Vodouisant community of Jacmel just
as they were when they attended Fet Gede (see
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/gede2000.html).
voodoom...@gmail.com
Greetings to all
I could not help but participate in the dialogue. Practice Voodoo Makaya Bokorem as Brazil, competitions and do not seek to dispute or who knows. I spend what I have learned within the religious ethics.
Time of 05 years who practice Voodoo Makaya I agree and disagree with some points.
I agree:
- How the rhythm of the drums in these sects are different.
- I can not accept that Makaya is part of Kongo rite. Than learned are three different sects. The Dahomean the Makaya and the Kongo
- PTN Makaya not coincide in all the spirits of the Kongo
- The manifestation of Makaya is much more intense and aggressive
- Much of the function in this Makaya wangas
I disagree:
- Lemba who is worshiped in Makaya, I learned that not
- That Makaya leak so bad
No more ...
FOS !!
Bokor Asnarium
