Vodou Ceremonies Outside Haiti
Racine125
community can only be done in Haiti, there are many, many other ceremonies and
other sorts of work which can be done anywhere.
Of course divination can be done anywhere - in Haiti most Houngans and Mambos
use ordinary playing cards, I use regular Tarot cards, other people use other
methods.
Possession can be induced anywhere. If you plan to call a lwa to your head,
you should not be alone at the time, because once the lwa comes, you won't be
there, right? You should have someone else present to serve the lwa, tend to
it's wishes, talk with it, listen to what it says, remember any messages it
leaves, and so on.
A Vodou dance theoretically can be held anywhere, but in most parts of the
world it's hard to find competent drummers, and most non-Haitians don't know
the songs and prayers. Some people hold ceremonies that do not include
drumming, you know, they get a group together and call a lwa, something like
that.
Herbal baths can be taken by anyone, anywhere. I actually prefer to do my own
in the USA just because I have a big bathtub and hot running water. Food
offerings can be done at home on your personal altar, or in groups.
A lave tet ceremony can be done in the USA, but you need space to seclude the
people having the lave tet, just overnight. It doesn't have to be in a djevo,
you could take all the furniture out of a bedroom and put white sheets on the
floor, for instance.
Service to the Dead can be done anywhere, but if you leave anything in a
cemetery in the USA, be prepared to read about it in the paper next week -
"bizarre objects found in local graveyard, Satanists suspected" is how they
will probably describe your offering of candles and black coffee. If you know
how, you can do an "anvwa mo" (sending of the Dead, usually against enemies) in
the cemetery.
A "maryaj lwa" in which a person marries a lwa, can certainly be done in a
private home, it doesn't require a peristyle. If you can have drumming,
dancing and singing, so much the better.
So as you can see, there is a great deal that can be done outside of Haiti,
anything except initiations, really.
Kevin Filan
>
>Although correct, authentic initiation ceremonies recognized by the Vodouisant
>community can only be done in Haiti, there are many, many other ceremonies and
>other sorts of work which can be done anywhere.
Good day to you, Racine. I hope your return to the States finds you well.
I have a few questions about "authentic initiation ceremonies" in all the
African Diaspora traditions, not just Vodou. Since we've got a number of
initiates posting on this forum, I thought I'd post them here for discussion.
While my questions to you focus primarily on Vodou, they could just as well
apply to the Lukumi, Palo or Candomble communities here and abroad.
I've gathered there is frequently considerable professional competition between
initiated practitioners. In that competition, it's not unheard of for one
practitioner to claim that "X fakes his lwa," "Y is not a validly initiated
Mambo," etc. I've also gathered that there is some variation in the way things
are done from house to house ... and I've even heard that there are validly
initiated Haitians who will tell you that no American (particularly no White
American) COULD be a validly initiated Houngan or Mambo, and that anyone who
claims otherwise was conned at best and is lying at worst. (PLEASE NOTE: I'm
not saying that these Haitians are right... but I am saying that you will find
Haitians who have passed the djevo and who believe in this fashion).
What goes on in the djevo is secret: there are similar secrets in Lukumi and
Candomble. It would be easy enough for a clever Houngan to bilk gullible
Westerners and give them an "authentic initiation ceremony" which left out key
ingredients ... or which bore little resemblance to the real thing. It's not
like we have some Djevo Secrets Instruction Manual to consult, nor do we have
anything with which to compare our experience. What's more, it seems that there
are people out there who WILL take your money without giving you the real thing.
Simply put: how does one know that s/he has received a valid initiation? I'm not
trying to be a pain in the backside here: I'm genuinely curious, and think these
are important issues which must be considered by anybody who is thinking about
ANY initiation.
Peace
Kevin Filan
I, who enjoy my body with unweary tread, would rather pack with wolves than
enter your pest-houses. Sensation... Nutrition... Mastication... Procreation!
This is your blind-worm cycle.
- A.O. Spare, from "The Anathema of Zos"
Racine125
>practitioner to claim that "X fakes his lwa,"
That sort of claim is considered extremely bad form in
Haiti - I have never heard a Haitian Houngan or Mambo
say this about another, unless of course the possession
was inauthentic in it's character.
That is to say, Houngan X has a lwa, or pretends to
have a lwa. The lwa behaves as the lwa should. No
one is going to suggest Houngan X is faking.
On the other hand, Houngan X pretends to have a lwa
that behaves in a way completely uncharacteristic of
that lwa. No one has to suggest that Houngan X is
faking, it's obvious. To Haitian Vodouisants, that is -
most Americans don't know enough about how any
given lwa should act, so it has to be explained.
> I've even heard that there are validly
>initiated Haitians who will tell you that no American
>(particularly no White
>American) COULD be a validly initiated Houngan or Mambo
I've heard this from a few racist Americans, but not from Haitians.
>Simply put: how does one know that s/he has received a valid initiation?
Well, in Haiti of course most Vodouisants have a good
idea what they should receive, although they don't know
the secrets of the djevo. Sometimes Houngans or Mambos
only give the full information to family members or long-term
associates, but the trend is away from that.
What is important for non-Haitians is to find an initiator
with a great deal of experience, someone who speaks
both English and Creole fluently, someone who has
been serving the Vodou tradition and living in Haiti for
many years. A person without that experience won't know
when someone helping them is screwing up, frankly.
That initiator also must be committed to providing correct,
authentic ceremonies, of course.
It's not enough just to be initiated, because when a person
is initiated they are *acted upon*, the ceremonies are done
to them but they have little idea how to do them for others.
You learn by attending subsequent kanzos after your
own initiation, and assisting.
At that point, you can also attend kanzos in other houses.
This helps you to form a basis of comparison.
I personally was delighted to find, after my initiation by
Houngan Luc Gedeon, that my ceremonies had been
absolutely correct and complete. And the ten years of
experience I had before I began doing initiations enabled
me to protect my own initiates when my first Houngan
partner, Yabofe, wanted to do incorrect and incomplete
ceremonies.
Eoghan Ballard
I will cut to the chase on this one. It doesn't matter which tradition we
are talking about on this issue. The real measure of whether one has an
authentic initiation and by extension a worthwhile godparent is the
quality of the life you see that teacher leading.
Not only should you not really want to be initiated by a person who is
leading an "unclean" life from the spiritual point of view but it is
probably the only real way a person who is not an initiate can be sure.
Someone with a modicum of research can concieveably fake a whole lot of
things. The proof is in the kind of spiritual example they are setting. I
do not mean talking the talk either. Look beyond that and see what sort of
person they really are. Look at their place in the community and see if
they are sought out by people and respected. What is more, do you see a
community that thrives and loves them within which they are a part. If
not, they are not the real thing.
Nsambiempongo locutare,
Eoghan
Racine125
this thread. (It was early in the morning.)
With regard to race - I should have said, "I haven't heard a
Haitian Houngan or Mambo make a *sincere* objection to
a candidate with regard to race."
I have of course heard a few unscrupulous Haitian clergy, and
one notorious African-American wanna-be Mambo in Philly,
use race as a *pretext* for denying initiation to "whites", or
to be more accurate, taking the "white" person's money and
then scamming them.
This is a power ploy, and remember that Vodou is about power,
not about "morality" in the Christian sense. If, for example,
Houngan Dahomey Konbley is able to get some big money
from a non-Haitian initiate and give them nothing of value in
return, then that Houngan has scored! Other Houngans and
Mambos will not as a rule condenm him. In fact they would do
the same to Haitians if they could.
This is changing, though - more and more non-Haitians are
becoming initiates, and Haitian Houngans and Mambos are
learning through experience that it brings them more credit -
and more business - to do correct ceremonies.
I was very, very fortunate - God and Guinea must really have
something in mind for me! Houngan Luc Gedeon insisted,
in the face of criticism from some of his peers, that he would
indeed give me a proper kanzo. "The lwa sent her to me," was
his reasoning, "and if I don't do the job right, the lwa will punish
me, they won't punish her."
When the lwa in his head said that I must become a Mambo
and not a hounsi (which is what I had asked for) all of us were
surprised, myself not the least. But Houngan Luc obeyed -
and the result has been wonderful for me!
I have tried to reciprocate by doing all that I can to promote
the Vodou religion, by insisting on absolutely correct ceremonies
for all my initaites, and now by maintaining my own peristyle.
It's a lot of work and a lot of responsibility, but I am very proud of
the Roots Without End Society, of our members, our house,
and our activities.
When Houngan Lance Love and Houngan David Golding attended
Fet Gede in November 2000 for instance, I thought I would just
about bust my buttons with pride as we walked in the "spiritual
procession" through Jacmel together with hundreds of Haitian
Houngans, Mambos, and hounsis.
When I attend a dance at the peristyle of another Houngan
or Mambo in the Jacmel area, I am always well received and
correctly saluted and so forth. On the other hand, at a dance
at my own peristyle, a visiting Mambo from Port-au-Prince who
did not know me attempted to pretend to be asogwe when she
wasn't, and was more than a little annoyed when she couldn't
get over. LOL!
In the upcoming kanzo, I am going to have the privilege of initiating
an older Haitian man who has been for years a very respected
practitioner. He does herbal medicine, he does magical work,
he does ceremonies for his family - often together with his
nephew. He has been approached with invitations to kanzo at
the houses of other Houngans and Mambos in the area, and has
always declined. The fact that he asked me about becoming
an initiate in the Roots Without End Society is a source of
enormous pride for me, and when he told me he also wanted to
include his wife and teenage daughter, I was really thrilled!
Of course this man can see that I am not black and not Haitian.
That is not an issue, however, what he is looking for is someone
he can trust to give him the right thing, and a house with a
reputation for taking care of it's members.
Racine125
> The real measure of whether one has an
>authentic initiation and by extension a worthwhile godparent is the
>quality of the life you see that teacher leading.
>
>Not only should you not really want to be initiated by a person who is
>leading an "unclean" life from the spiritual point of view but it is
>probably the only real way a person who is not an initiate can be sure.
You know, Eoghan, this is the Christian value system - the
initiator should be a "good" person living a "good, clean" life.
However, in Vodou the Christian value system does not apply.
I know plenty of Houngans who beat their wives, scam their
clients, whatever... and no one in Haiti would suggest that they
are not authentic, or that the ceremonies they perform are not
authentic.
This was very hard for me to understand and accept, coming as I
do from a Christian background. But that's the way it is in
Haiti - I didn't make it up, I'm just reporting the facts.
While I am delighted and very proud to have the respect and
approval of my community in Jacmel, for instance, even if I were
not so loved and supported, even if (or possibly *especially* if)
I were feared, I would still be an authentic Mambo doing
authentic ceremonies.
For example, there is a house in Jacmel which is notorious for
the following reason - no one who kanzos in that house ever
has any more children. The explanation is that the Houngan
has a lwa who "eats" the eggs or sperm of the initiates. But
people still initiate in that house, despite the premium placed
on fertility in Haitian culture. This is because that house
offers POWER, the initiates become strong magicians who
can work effective wanga.
I personally condemn sexual exploitation of initiates, scamming,
all the things a person could do, of which we in the USA would
disapprove. But I've said it before and I will say it again, I am
atypical in this regard among Houngans and Mambos of Haitian
Vodou.
I am not saying that most other Houngans and Mambos are
dirty lying scheming wretches, but I am saying that even
a dirty lying scheming wretch can do authentic ceremonies.
Eoghan Ballard
values but according to broader spiritual values. All African and African
derived religions place a great value on community. Therefore, the role a
person plays within their community and the respect or lack thereof given
them by the community is in traditional African terms a good indicator of
whether someone is a reputable or worthy teacher.
Further, I did not say that the character of a person was an indication of
whether they were "authentic" or not, simply that it was a better way by
which someone unable to judge the "authenticity" of a priest or priestess
(of whatever title or tradition) could decide whether they wanted to
entrust their spiritual and psychic development to a particular person or
not.
Of course those with little or superficial judgement will make mistakes no
matter what. There are always people ready to sell them initiation
packages without developing any relationship before or after.
Eoghan
Kevin Filan
says...
>
>No, Racine, I did not specify "good, clean life" according to Christian
>values but according to broader spiritual values. All African and African
>derived religions place a great value on community. Therefore, the role a
>person plays within their community and the respect or lack thereof given
>them by the community is in traditional African terms a good indicator of
>whether someone is a reputable or worthy teacher.
I'll hazard a guess that your average Haitian or Cuban seeking initiation in an
ATR knows their initiators personally. In most cases they're related by blood,
or have known each other for most or all of their lives. A foreigner coming to
Haiti or Cuba (or Brazil or Nigeria, for that matter) doesn't have that
familiarity... and neither are these priests familiar with their potential
initiates. It makes for a potentially volatile situation all around. There are
few things which will f**k you up more quickly or more seriously than taking an
initiation in any tradition, PARTICULARLY the African Diaspora traditions,
without being ready.
>Further, I did not say that the character of a person was an indication of
>whether they were "authentic" or not, simply that it was a better way by
>which someone unable to judge the "authenticity" of a priest or priestess
>(of whatever title or tradition) could decide whether they wanted to
>entrust their spiritual and psychic development to a particular person or
>not.
I think the term "authentic" is a slippery one here. Racine has made allusions
to a house in Haiti which is comprised exclusively of gay men but which is not
recognized by many of the surrounding houses due to alleged irregularities in
their practices. (IIRC, the primary complaint was that transgendered persons
with penii were allowed to enter the djevo in women's clothing). Are they
"inauthentic?" If I learned the passwords and gestures from their Houngan (or
Mambo, as sie prefers) and then gave them in response at a fet in Brooklyn,
would they be accepted? More to the point: would they be capable of getting a
person in touch with the lwa and of passing the ase and lineage?
I've also gathered that there is some variation between houses in all of these
traditions. Eoghan's House o'Palo, for example, may do things a bit differently
than Akbar and Jeff's Palo Hut on the other side of the island: both may do
things differently than the Bronx Palo Mayombe Crew. At what point does a
person diverge so significantly from "the tradition" that they are no longer
practicing "authentic" Vodou, Palo Mayombe, etc. (And who gets to decide
exactly what constitutes "the tradition.")
Kevin Filan
>values but according to broader spiritual values. All African and African
>derived religions place a great value on community. Therefore, the role a
>person plays within their community and the respect or lack thereof given
>them by the community is in traditional African terms a good indicator of
>whether someone is a reputable or worthy teacher.
I'll hazard a guess that your average Haitian or Cuban seeking initiation in an
ATR knows their initiators personally. In most cases they're related by blood,
or have known each other for most or all of their lives. A foreigner coming to
Haiti or Cuba (or Brazil or Nigeria, for that matter) doesn't have that
familiarity... and neither are these priests familiar with their potential
initiates. It makes for a potentially volatile situation all around. There are
few things which will f**k you up more quickly or more seriously than taking an
initiation in any tradition, PARTICULARLY the African Diaspora traditions,
without being ready.
>Further, I did not say that the character of a person was an indication of
>whether they were "authentic" or not, simply that it was a better way by
>which someone unable to judge the "authenticity" of a priest or priestess
>(of whatever title or tradition) could decide whether they wanted to
>entrust their spiritual and psychic development to a particular person or
>not.
I think the term "authentic" is a slippery one here. Racine has made allusions
Kevin Filan
>>What is important for non-Haitians is to find an initiator
>with a great deal of experience, someone who speaks
>both English and Creole fluently, someone who has
>been serving the Vodou tradition and living in Haiti for
>many years. A person without that experience won't know
>when someone helping them is screwing up, frankly.
Here's another question: how does a Houngan or Mambo determine whether or not a
person should be initiated at all? As I said in an earlier post to Eoghan, in
Haiti or Cuba I believe it's the norm for people to have known their initiatory
parents a long time. I'm sure you can see how there are all kinds of attendant
dangers to all concerned when offering wholesale initiations to people whom you
know casually at best. What are some things which, for example, would cause you
to turn away a prospective candidate?
I know that divination (by dillogun and/or ifa) is used extensively in Lukumi to
determine whether or not a person's head should be made, and to whom it should
be made. Is divination also used in Vodou? I know Ifa didn't make it to Haiti,
and that Houngans and Mambos typically divine using playing cards.
I was also under the impression that one typically speaks to the lwa to
determine one's met tet, future course of action in re. initiation, etc. Is
this the case? Have you ever encountered a situation where the lwa told you (or
somebody else) not to perform an initiation?
Eoghan Ballard
You've made a few good points even if your comparisons at times get a
little "cute".
You are of course right than in most cases a Cuban is going to, if not be
related to his godfather, know him and his reputation. It was precisely
that issue that I was raising by suggesting that a potential initiand
should look to see the role and reputation within the community.
As for determining what is or isn't "authentic" that too can be addressed.
To a degree I agree that the term "authenticity" is a slippery one, but
more because the term is usually loaded with a variety of cultural and
political meanings that often deal with issues of performance and
appearance and occassionally have economic consequences. Accepting that,
the standards are not so fluid that with a bit of education one cannot
learn to apply the standards and values of the community to determine
whether one or another temple or house is or is not "authentic".
These traditions are not tabula rasas nor is just anything acceptable.
Neither does it have to do just with such obvious social issues as
homosexuality. My familiairity with Palo allows me to consider a wide
range of cultural material that is preserved in this tradition. It is a
rich and deep tradition in terms of the quantity, quality and variety of
cultural material that has been preserved. To begin to do it justice would
require a substantial number of volumes and one could not be assured of
covering it all.
A good palero (an authentic one if you would) must know a substantial
number of prayers and songs. These prayers and songs are more often than
not macaronic (meaning comprised of multilingual lyrics) and allude to his
need to possess a reasonable amount of African vocabulary. In the case of
Palo whether in Cuba or elsewhere that material will not be available
through anything store bought. Then there is ritual practice. The rites
and practices of these traditions are complex and require a fairly
substantial level of study to execute.
Lastly but not of least importance is whether the person gets results.
That is the hardest of all tests.
So the issue is not as fluid nor as maliable as your comparison suggests.
In Cuba at least the chaff is soon separated from the wheat.
Eoghan
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I'll hazard a guess that your average Haitian or Cuban seeking
>initiation in an ATR knows their initiators personally. In most
>cases they're related by blood,
>or have known each other for most or all of their lives.
Usually, but not always. Sometimes people come to the
houses of people they don't know except by reputation.
Obviously my Haitian initiates are probably not related to
me by blood, unless my little bit of black ancestry on
my father's side came by way of Haiti and we don't know
it. They do all know me personally, though, and they
are already serving in my house.
>There
>are
>few things which will f**k you up more quickly or more seriously than taking
>an
>initiation in any tradition, PARTICULARLY the African Diaspora traditions,
>without being ready.
No. The kanzo is good for everyone who takes it, it
doesn't "f*ck you up", to use Kevin's quaint phrase. I wish
every single person in the USA would kanzo! I wish they
would kanzo whether they plan to serve in the Vodou tradition
or not.
A few froot-loops have lately been putting out this idea that
they were "chosen", while others are not "chosen". What
overweening ego! It was a lwa who decreed that I take the
asson, but I don't run around telling other people that I am
"chosen" and others aren't, fer cryin' out loud.
>Racine has made
>allusions
>to a house in Haiti which is comprised exclusively of gay men but which is
>not
>recognized by many of the surrounding houses due to alleged irregularities in
>their practices. (IIRC, the primary complaint was that transgendered persons
>with penii were allowed to enter the djevo in women's clothing).
I didn't "make allusions", I clearly stated it. The men in
the djevo were simply gay, not "transgendered", and they
wore the ceremonial clothing of women, which isn't
allowed.
>Are they
>"inauthentic?"
Yes. That house is something of an "outlaw" house,
not because they are gay but because they don't
follow the rules
> If I learned the passwords and gestures from their Houngan
>(or
>Mambo, as sie prefers) and then gave them in response
>at a fet in Brooklyn,
>would they be accepted?
Kevin, here is how it is. I, for example, am a Mambo asgowe.
Everyone in Jacmel knows me, no one has any hesitation
about letting me into the djevo, or doing all the ritual gestures
of salutations with me.
But if I were to go to, say, I house in Port-au-Prince *where
the members did not know me*, then no Houngan or Mambo
would go the whole nine yards with me in terms of ritual
gestures, no Houngan or Mambo asogwe would touch heads
with me, UNLESS AND UNTIL I could provide "temwen", a
witness that they know and trust who could vouch for me.
This is true even though of course I can give all the passwords
and the handshakes and so on.
>At what point does a
>person diverge so significantly from "the tradition" that they are no longer
>practicing "authentic" Vodou, Palo Mayombe, etc. (And who gets to decide
>exactly what constitutes "the tradition.")
At the point where they are doing things specifically
forbidden by the tradition, or failing to do things specifically
required by the tradition - at least in Vodou.
Who gets to decide? Why, the members of the tradition,
of course! In the case of Vodou, this means mostly Haitians
who have grown in the Vodou tradition all their lives. And
in the eyes of these good folks, initiations performed
outside of Haiti are not and can not be valid, by definition.
Now, of course a person could make up their own religion,
use oak leaves or pine needles or something instead of
the required herbs, or have them sent by air thousands of
miles from their native soil. We have freedom of religion,
it's not illegal. But then the person should call that religion
"American pseudo-Voodoo" or something, it's not Haitian
Vodou and it doesn't bring the spiritual and material
benefits of an authentic kanzo.
An initiation is not a "tour package" or a Carnival
cruise, it is an intense spiritual effort, and it is a BEGINNING,
not an end. Once a person is initiated they can remain
in contact with their initiatory parent or not as they choose,
but my experience is that those who stick around, in my
house and in all-Haitian houses, are the ones who reap
the greatest rewards.
In fact, it is my greatest, most bitter regret that Houngan
Luc Gedeon passed away a few years after he gave me the
asson. Maybe I didn't like his wife, maybe a few of the
hounsis were constantly asking for money, maybe I thought
he personally was too strict or not affectionate enough or
whatever, but I hung in there and I got everything he could
give me in the time he had, God and Guinea bless him. I
loved him enormously for what he did for me.
I wish, I wish, I wish eternally that he was still here, that
I could have continued to learn and grow with him, that I
could have taken my own first initiates to his house, that
it could have been him who installed me in my own
peristyle... ahhh, I wish. But that didn't happen, I have
made the best of it, I repeated my ceremonies with a Houngan
who did some real back-stabbing and I still hung in there and
remained faithful to the regulations of the Vodou tradition.
And I am now reaping the benefits! And I invite others to
reap them too, they are available to anyone willing to submit
themselves to the discipline of the Vodou faith.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Racine125
>determine whether or not a person should be initiated at all?
My tendency is to give the kanzo, although not the asson, to
anyone who wants it! This is how it is in Haiti, with a few
qualifications that I will discuss below. It is generally considered
that if a person wants to be kanzo, they want to be kanzo
because the lwa have inspired in them the desire to be kanzo.
>I'm sure you can see how there are all kinds of attendant
>dangers to all concerned when offering wholesale
>initiations to people whom you know casually at best.
It is certainly true that I have initiated a few people who have
later given me cause to regret. But that is on them - I held
up my end of the bargain, I have always provided correct,
authentic ceremonies and truthful, unbiased translations
and so on. What an initiate does with that after the initaition
is up to them. The danger to the initiate does not lie in
a correct initiation - the kanzo is good for everyone. It lies
in failure to adhere to the rules of the tradition, which results
in a hot head and bad behavior at best.
This is certainly true in Haiti too - if a Houngan makes fifteen
hounsis, they can generally expect to lose five or six at least.
People are looking for all different things -a guru, a demigod,
whatever - and we are just people like everything else. It
is the Vodou which is divine, not the Mambo or the Houngan.
>hat are some things which, for example, would cause you
>to turn away a prospective candidate?
Well, let me think.
I have turned away very few - one wanted to know how to do
malevolent magic, specifically he wanted to know how to
kill people! Another had a problem with respecting authority,
and this respect is a basic requirement of the Vodou faith.
Let me give you an example. Everyone knows that I cancelled
the August 2000 kanzo because Houngan Yabofe broke into
the suitcases of some of the July 2000 initiates and stole
money. I am disgusted with Houngan Yabofe, I will never work
with him again, but if I meet him in a dance I call him "Papa",
because he gave me my second asson. If I disrespect him in
a ceremony I would be disrespecting my own head - so I grit
my teeth and I say "Papa". And I gain tremendous respect
in the Jacmel Vodouisant community for doing so.
Now, if I have a candidates who doesn't seem willing to submit
to this sort of discipline, I am reluctant now to accept them as
candidates - based on past experience, sad to say.
I am also unwilling to give people the asson the first time out
UNLESS there are compelling reasons to do so, for example if
the person is already sur point and has been serving for a long
time, or if the person is a Haitian who grew up in the tradition.
>Is divination also used in Vodou?
Of course, Kevin, you know that.
>I was also under the impression that one typically speaks
>to the lwa to determine one's met tet, future course of action
>in re. initiation, etc. Is this the case?
Yes and no. Here is how it is in Haiti:
A person asking for initiation will almost always be accepted.
Then a lwa will be called or divination done to elucidate the
situation. Often the met tet is already known because the
person has already undergone possession.
Rank is often as much a matter of social standing and economic
capacity as anything else, sorry to say. An "alpha male" type
with financial resources and standing in the community is more
likely to get the asson, a poor woman with no particular social
prestige is more likely to become a hounsi.
In my house however, I don't require Haitian initiates *who I invite*
to pay initiation fees, and I base my assignment of grades on other
factors, which include what I learn through divination. Of course this
makes my house very attractive to Haitian candidates, particularly
those who would be unlikely to get a grade higher than hounsi
at the houses of others.
This coming July I will be initiating seven Haitians, at last count. I
did a reading for each one of them except for the toddler coming
with her mother, since the toddler will be hounsi by definition, I
do not put children sur point. But her mother, who will also be hounsi,
I did a reading for her. The candidates were very happy with
their readings, and one, who is an experienced magician, told me
afterward that the reading merely confirmed what he already knew,
namely that he is a son of Gran Bwa.
>Have you ever encountered a situation where the lwa told you (or
>somebody else) not to perform an initiation?
Not specifically a lwa, no. As you are aware, there were some
candidates in past initiations about whom I had serious
reservations and whom I initiated against my better judgement,
because they begged so much. I should have listened to my
own head.
But that is all water under the bridge! I am building the Vodou
community in the USA and in Jacmel, the lwa have rewarded
me and continue to do so, and I will continue to kanzo almost
anyone who wants! Some will stay, some will fall away - and
that is normal, it's the same in all-Haitian houses.
The more experience I gain, the more serenity I gain as well,
apparently. :-)
Kevin Filan
Greetings again to you, Racine, and thank you for your courteous and informative
response to my questions.
>>Here's another question: how does a Houngan or Mambo
>>determine whether or not a person should be initiated at all?
>
>My tendency is to give the kanzo, although not the asson, to
>anyone who wants it! This is how it is in Haiti, with a few
>qualifications that I will discuss below. It is generally considered
>that if a person wants to be kanzo, they want to be kanzo
>because the lwa have inspired in them the desire to be kanzo.
I don't believe that is the case in Lukumi: perhaps some others here more
qualified than I am would be willing to comment? I was of the impression that
not everybody is called to receieve the elekes and the warriors, never mind
getting their head made.
The reason I asked about divination earlier was that divination (by the cowries
and Ifa) plays a MAJOR role in determining one's course of spiritual development
in Ocha. I was curious to see if it played a similar role in determining one's
status in Haitian Vodou. I know that the dillogun and Table of Ifa did not make
it to Haiti; I also wonder if divination is as important in the various Fon or
Kongo-derived religions as it is in the Yoruba-based ones. Perhaps one of the
scholars on here will be so kind as to comment.
>It is certainly true that I have initiated a few people who have
>later given me cause to regret. But that is on them - I held
>up my end of the bargain, I have always provided correct,
>authentic ceremonies and truthful, unbiased translations
>and so on. What an initiate does with that after the initaition
>is up to them. The danger to the initiate does not lie in
>a correct initiation - the kanzo is good for everyone. It lies
>in failure to adhere to the rules of the tradition, which results
>in a hot head and bad behavior at best.
Again, speaking from what I know, this is NOT the case in Ocha or Lukumi
practices. (I cannot say whether or not Paleros believe that everyone would
benefit by being cut into Palo: perhaps Eoghan will tell us more about that).
You've spoken at length about the benefits of making Kanzo: what are some of the
*responsibilities* which accrue upon one who makes Kanzo? And what are some of
the consequences you can expect if you shirk those responsibilities? You say
that "at best" you get a hot head and bad behavior: what can happen at worst? In
my opinion, you should give an initiation at LEAST as much thought as you would
give to a marriage. (Arguably you should give it more: getting divorced is
easier than getting out of initiatory commitments).
>This is certainly true in Haiti too - if a Houngan makes fifteen
>hounsis, they can generally expect to lose five or six at least.
>People are looking for all different things -a guru, a demigod,
>whatever - and we are just people like everything else. It
>is the Vodou which is divine, not the Mambo or the Houngan.
That is a VERY important point for every prospective initiate to consider.
Whatever else it may do, initiation does not guarantee moral superiority. (The
words "Tonton Macoutes" come to mind immediately). Coming into ANY tradition
expecting a demigod or guru is a bad, bad idea. At best you are setting
yourself up for a serious disappointment when you discover your idol puts his
pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else. At worst you leave
yourself open to all kinds of exploitation by shady characters... and the
African Diaspora faiths have as many con artists and slimeballs as any other
religion.
>hat are some things which, for example, would cause you
>>to turn away a prospective candidate?
>
>Well, let me think.
>
>I have turned away very few - one wanted to know how to do
>malevolent magic, specifically he wanted to know how to
>kill people! Another had a problem with respecting authority,
>and this respect is a basic requirement of the Vodou faith.
You have said before that Vodou is about power, not morality: why would you have
a problem with someone wanting to use Vodou to get rid of his enemies? I'm
being serious, not sarcastic, here. If what you have said is true, casting
wanga to kill an opponent or enemy is Standard Operating Practice for most
Haitian Houngans and Mambos. Why wouldn't you give him what he asked for and
let him accept the consequences of his actions?
As for respecting authority: I've noticed that most people who come from the
Western Esoteric tradition have a lot of difficulty with the concepts of
hierarchy. Neopaganism is largely about "doing your own thing" and "having a
personal relationship with your deity." Many Neopagans have a hard time
understanding that they don't have a right to call themselves a "Priest of
Damballah" or "Priestess of Ezili Freda" any more than they have a right to call
themselves Roman Catholic Priests or Jewish Rabbis without proper training by
recognized authorities in those traditions.
That being said: I think we should also recognize that many Neopagans dislike
this kind of hierarchy for good reason. This kind of setup is ripe for all
sorts of abuses. Should you respect the authority of your initiator when he
makes sexual advances toward you, for example? What if your initiatory mother
asks to "borrow" money from you, then doesn't want to repay it? I think it's
naive to pretend this kind of garbage doesn't happen in the African Diaspora
faiths. (I'd also add that, in my experience, the very people who are most
likely to "pull rank" and assert their "divine authority" are the ones who are
most likely to abuse that authority).
>>Is divination also used in Vodou?
>
>Of course, Kevin, you know that.
I know a bit about it, but was hoping you could tell us more about the role of
divination in Haitian Vodou. As I said before, I would be interested in
comparing and contrasting the role of divination in Yoruba, Fon and Kongo based
religions. (i.e. Lukumi, Vodou, and Palo Mayombe).
Peace
Kevin Filan
The pride of the peacock is the glory of God.
The lust of the goat is the bounty of God.
The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God
- William Blake
Kevin Filan
>>There
>>are
>>few things which will f**k you up more quickly or more seriously than taking
>>an
>>initiation in any tradition, PARTICULARLY the African Diaspora traditions,
>>without being ready.
>
>No. The kanzo is good for everyone who takes it, it
>doesn't "f*ck you up", to use Kevin's quaint phrase. I wish
>every single person in the USA would kanzo! I wish they
>would kanzo whether they plan to serve in the Vodou tradition
>or not.
As I said, this is different than what I have been told about other African
Diaspora traditions, and from my own experience in the Western Esoteric
traditions. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that this is an
interesting divergence from the other A-D traditions.
In a similar vein, I would say that Vodou is unique among these faiths in being
entirely about "power and not morality." Lukumi certainly has a complex and
highly developed moral tradition: I cannot speak for Palo Mayombe or the Kongo
traditions, but as always I hope Eoghan will chime in here with his thoughts.
>A few froot-loops have lately been putting out this idea that
>they were "chosen", while others are not "chosen". What
>overweening ego! It was a lwa who decreed that I take the
>asson, but I don't run around telling other people that I am
>"chosen" and others aren't, fer cryin' out loud.
I know that one of the outcomes of casting the cowries can be that a person is
required to make the saint, or to undergo some other initiation or ceremony
(i.e. receive the Elekes and Warriors, etc.). You have said that a lwa decreed
you should take the asson: I'd call that being "chosen" even if modesty
precluded you from saying so :)
>>Racine has made
>>allusions
>>to a house in Haiti which is comprised exclusively of gay men but which is
>>not
>>recognized by many of the surrounding houses due to alleged irregularities in
>>their practices. (IIRC, the primary complaint was that transgendered persons
>>with penii were allowed to enter the djevo in women's clothing).
>
>I didn't "make allusions", I clearly stated it. The men in
>the djevo were simply gay, not "transgendered", and they
>wore the ceremonial clothing of women, which isn't
>allowed.
I'd say that men who wish to wear the clothing of women fit the Commonly
Accepted Definition of "transgendered." As I said in an earlier discussion on
this topic on a mailing list, a transgendered Haitian may very well consider
hirself a gay male because that is the role which is open to hir in that
society. Sie might never go for a sex change or for hormones because these
things are not available to hir.
(My girlfriend Kathy, who has a degree in Cultural Studies and who has studied
gender theory more extensively than I, might be able to comment at greater
length on this).
I chose this example because I wanted to point out some of the difficulties in
determining what is and is not "authentic" in African Diaspora traditions. As
Eoghan pointed out in his post, there are definitely some easy calls. If I set
up "Kevin's Palo Palace: a Franchise of Akbar & Jeff's Palo Hut" (to take my
previous "cute" allusion to a new level) and style myself a "Palero Priest,"
nobody inside or outside the African Diaspora traditions is likely to take me
seriously. When you get into a question of doctrinal disputes, on the other
hand, matters can quickly become thorny and convoluted.
>>Are they
>>"inauthentic?"
>
>Yes. That house is something of an "outlaw" house,
>not because they are gay but because they don't
>follow the rules
Are you saying that they do not have lwa, and that they are not capable of
introducing a prospective initiate to the lwa? If I were to go to this house
and be initiated there, would my asson be utterly worthless in dealing with the
lwa and the ancestors?
>> If I learned the passwords and gestures from their Houngan
>>(or
>>Mambo, as sie prefers) and then gave them in response
>>at a fet in Brooklyn,
>>would they be accepted?
>
>Kevin, here is how it is. I, for example, am a Mambo asgowe.
>Everyone in Jacmel knows me, no one has any hesitation
>about letting me into the djevo, or doing all the ritual gestures
>of salutations with me.
>
>But if I were to go to, say, I house in Port-au-Prince *where
>the members did not know me*, then no Houngan or Mambo
>would go the whole nine yards with me in terms of ritual
>gestures, no Houngan or Mambo asogwe would touch heads
>with me, UNLESS AND UNTIL I could provide "temwen", a
>witness that they know and trust who could vouch for me.
>This is true even though of course I can give all the passwords
>and the handshakes and so on.
And I can see where this can get REAL complicated REAL quickly. I suspect that
you and the late Luc Gedeon's wife, for example, don't have a lot of charitable
things to say about each other, never mind you and Houngan Yabofe. When you
throw interpersonal squabbles into the mix, not to mention competition for
business, I can see
>
>>At what point does a
>>person diverge so significantly from "the tradition" that they are no longer
>>practicing "authentic" Vodou, Palo Mayombe, etc. (And who gets to decide
>>exactly what constitutes "the tradition.")
>
>At the point where they are doing things specifically
>forbidden by the tradition, or failing to do things specifically
>required by the tradition - at least in Vodou.
>
>Who gets to decide? Why, the members of the tradition,
>of course! In the case of Vodou, this means mostly Haitians
>who have grown in the Vodou tradition all their lives. And
>in the eyes of these good folks, initiations performed
>outside of Haiti are not and can not be valid, by definition.
I've heard from others who disagree with you, and claim that the major problem
is one of expense. (Simply put: it costs a lot more to hold an initiation in
the states than to hold a comparable initiation in Haiti). I do not know what
the general consensus is among the Haitian Diaspora regarding this question. I
have heard that initiations have been held in the United States by Haitians who
could not go back to Haiti for political or other reasons. Again, I do not know
the details concerning these initiations, nor do I know whether or not they are
accepted among Haitian Vodouisants in Haiti or in the Diaspora. Anyone who
knows more than I do is welcome to comment.
>Now, of course a person could make up their own religion,
>use oak leaves or pine needles or something instead of
>the required herbs, or have them sent by air thousands of
>miles from their native soil.
There are various well-stocked botanicas in my Brooklyn neighborhood which carry
all kinds of Haitian stuff, including herbs like Fey Kapab and Ave Maria. As I
do not know the exact herbs or substances used in the djevo, I cannot comment
for certain as to whether *all* of them are readily available in the United
States, but I suspect that most of them can be found by a person who is willing
to dig and who knows what s/he is looking for.
> We have freedom of religion,
>it's not illegal. But then the person should call that religion
>"American pseudo-Voodoo" or something, it's not Haitian
>Vodou and it doesn't bring the spiritual and material
>benefits of an authentic kanzo.
Again, are you saying that one can only be introduced to the lwa and given adje
and lineage in Haiti by a practitioner of orthodox Vodou? I'm asking this
because it was my understanding that the most important benefit of making kanzo
was that the initiate is introduced to the lwa and gains adje and lineage --
that is, the credentials required to work with these lwa. Could a person not be
introduced to the lwa in a Miami djevo or a Brooklyn djevo? This proscription
doesn't exist in Ocha: while there does appear to be a certain cachet associated
with initiations in Cuba, I know plenty of people who had their heads made in
America.
Peace
Kevin Filan
Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you.
- William Blake
LuckyHoodoo92
>qualified than I am would be willing to comment? I was of the impression that
>not everybody is called to receieve the elekes and the warriors, never mind
>getting their head made.
Anyone can recieve the basic 5 elekes or the warriors based upon divination.
Also the uninitiated can recieve some orishas like Babaluaiye and Olokun based
upon divination as well. Anyone can have their head read to find out who their
guardian Orisha is but they can't be "crowned" until initiation. Regardless
whether you have your elekes or warriors or what not, you still are *not*
initiated into the religion. Some iles say that getting your elekes is a
"half" initiation but this isn't true. Like the saying, "You can't be half
pregnant", likewise you can't be half initiated. Also be prepared to the fact
that should you join an ile in the future that you may not be able to keep the
elekes or warriors that you possessed as a non-initiate.
>That being said: I think we should also recognize that many Neopagans dislike
>this kind of hierarchy for good reason. This kind of setup is ripe for all
>sorts of abuses. Should you respect the authority of your initiator when he
>makes sexual advances toward you, for example? What if your initiatory mother
>asks to "borrow" money from you, then doesn't want to repay it? I think it's
>naive to pretend this kind of garbage doesn't happen in the African Diaspora
>faiths. (
In Santeria, Lukumi, IFA, and the like sexual conduct between one's spiritual
mother and father is not permitited. Any person doing such is shunned by the
rest of the community.
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>>That house is something of an "outlaw" house,
>>not because they are gay but because they don't
>>follow the rules
>
>Are you saying that they do not have lwa, and that they are not capable of
>introducing a prospective initiate to the lwa? If I were to go to this house
>and be initiated there, would my asson be utterly worthless in dealing with
>the
>lwa and the ancestors?
If you were initiated in that house, you would not be considered
authentic in the Vodouisant community, especially among
those who knew where you were initiated. You might be
able to get over a little bit in a house where you were a total
stranger, with the reservation that without a "temwen", a
witness, you wouldn't get into the djevo and you wouldn't
find people willing to do all ceremonial gestures with you.
And of course in that particular case, your temwen wouldn't
be able to do much for you, since you were initiated in a
very doubtful house to begin with.
And yes, your asson would be worthless.
You know, the rules and regulations of the djevo are not a
game, and we don't have them because we are trying
to be cute, we have them because they REALLY WORK!
>And I can see where this can get REAL complicated REAL quickly. I suspect
>that
>you and the late Luc Gedeon's wife, for example, don't have a lot of
>charitable
>things to say about each other, never mind you and Houngan Yabofe.
No, that's not how it is. It doesn't matter how much I am disgusted
with Yabofe, I have to call him Papa and he has to vouch
for me. He has done so, very publicly, in fact. And your temwen
does not have to be the person who initiates you, it can be
someone else who was present at your ceremonies.
When I give my asogwe initiates the asson, I take them to a
place owned by a Houngan asogwe who has been in the Jacmel
community for years and years, specifically so that if anything
happens to me, my initiates still have a valuable temwen.
>I've heard from others who disagree with you, and claim that the major
>problem
>is one of expense.
That is false. You have heard, you have heard... from WHO?
Are they initaites? If so, where were they initiated? Haiti,
I bet. :-)
>I
>have heard that initiations have been held in the United States by Haitians
>who
>could not go back to Haiti for political or other reasons
I know there are people in New York City who will initiate others
"hounsi kanzo" in NYC. Those initiates are generally not
regarded as correct, and they usually go to Haiti to repeat
their ceremonies or to take a higher grade at the earliest
possible opportunity.
However, it is possible to do many, many other ceremonies
in the USA! This obsession with initiations obscures the
fact that lave tet (head washing), maryaj lwa (marriage to
a lwa), bay lwa manje (giving the lwa food), retire mo nan
dlo (taking the dead from the water), dances, calling the
lwa in consultation, all can be done in the USA or
anywhere else!
>There are various well-stocked botanicas in my Brooklyn neighborhood which
>carry
>all kinds of Haitian stuff, including herbs like Fey Kapab and Ave Maria.
You know, Kevin, you and your big mouth are the reason why
I now am very reluctant to have people present at a kanzo
who are not going to be initiated and are not going to take the
vows of secrecy. Although those leaves pertain specifically to
ceremonies other than the kanzo, I have asked you more than
once to keep this information to yourself, I told you so in Haiti
before you left and you promised to do so, so why are you
blabbing now?
Furthermore, even if you could obtain the leaves, they
would be thousands of miles from their places of origin, they
could not possibly be picked within the time required
for their use, and so on. There is a lot you and your
"folks who told you" this or that do not know, you because
you are not initiated and they because they simply
don't have the experience!
It is impossible to know everything one needs to know
following an initiation. Even I, with over eleven years of
experience as a Mambo asogwe, learn new things
in every kanzo, that is why I have more experienced
Houngans and Mambos to help me. Fortunately
I had nearly ten years of experience before I ever did a kanzo
and thus was able to provide all the necessary elements
and protect my initiates from deliberately inauthentic
actions right from the start, but there is always more to
learn.
Haitian Houngans and Mambos know this too! No
one does an initiation entirely on their own, Houngans
and Mambos always consult with their seniors, and when
possible invite them to assist.
>Again, are you saying that one can only be introduced to the lwa and given
>adje
>and lineage in Haiti by a practitioner of orthodox Vodou?
First of all, we do not use the term "adje", that is a conceit
invented by someone who had better remain nameless.
The term has been used as the title of a CD by a
Vodou-pop band, I suppose that is where he got it, but
I have not heard it used in peristyles in Haiti.
Secondly, I repeat (and repeat and repeat) that anyone
can have lwa, you don't have to be in Haiti and you
don't have to be initiated. My first possession occured
in a nightclub in Northampton, Mass., where a
Nigerian drum group was playing. I was not a Mambo
at that time, either.
However, *initiation* can only be done correctly in Haiti.
>Could a person not
>be
>introduced to the lwa in a Miami djevo or a Brooklyn djevo?
A correct djevo, by definition, can not be made in Miami
or Brooklyn! The djevo is the room where initiates are
secluded during initiation.
You could be introduced to the lwa, in the sense that
if La Sirene was in my head and you were there, someone
could say, "Kevin, this is La Sirene."
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>>I have turned away very few - one wanted to know how to do
>>malevolent magic, specifically he wanted to know how to
>>kill people! Another had a problem with respecting authority,
>>and this respect is a basic requirement of the Vodou faith.
>
>You have said before that Vodou is about power, not morality: why would you
>have
>a problem with someone wanting to use Vodou to get rid of his enemies? I'm
>being serious, not sarcastic, here. If what you have said is true, casting
>wanga to kill an opponent or enemy is Standard Operating Practice for most
>Haitian Houngans and Mambos. Why wouldn't you give him what he asked for and
>let him accept the consequences of his actions?
It's a good question. It would not be incongruous with
the tradition for me to initiate a person knowing he
planned to work harmful wanga against his enemies,
far from it. I just didn't feel that this was the sort
of vibe I wanted in my perisytle, I have my share of
nutcases already. And I didn't trust him to keep the
secrets, he was entirely focused on killing his enemy
and be damned to the rest.
>You've spoken at length about the benefits of making Kanzo: what are some of
>the
>*responsibilities* which accrue upon one who makes Kanzo?
I owe to my initiates what a mother owes to a child. If they
are broke and homeless they can sleep in the peristyle, if
they are hungry I must feed them to the best of my ability,
if they are sick I must give them medical care, both traditional
care and allopathic care, that is to say I must pay for the
doctor and the prescriptions and so on if they are unable
to do so and I have the funds.
They are of course allowed in the djevo anytime, in fact
their presence is highly desirable unless they do some
outrageous behaviors that disrupt the house, in which
case they might be disinvited until they straighten up.
I owe them information, the best and most complete
information I can give them. If they want me to call a
lwa for them I owe them that, free of charge. Divination
likewise - if my daughter Mambo Tmara calls me up
and says, "Mama, read the cards for me", then of
course I will.
I owe them protection, spiritual and physical. For example,
it happened during Rara that my Haitian daughter Mambo
Simone happened upon me and was so glad to see
me that she dashed right up and grabbed me! My
boyfriend didn't know her, and fearful of her intentions
pushed her away roughly.
"THAT'S MY DAUGHTER!", I yelled, and pushed him
back just as hard. She gets priority over him, no matter
how much I love him, because she is my initiate and
he is not.
Initiates owe the parent, too - they have to be present
at dances if physically possible, they have to clean up
the peristyle afterwards and give me a massage if I
need one, they have to assist at kanzos and I don't have
to pay them - although I am expected to share any
peristyle income with them it is not a payment.
In Vodou we never "excommunicate" anyone, and I apply
this principle to candidates once they make their declaration
of intent to kanzo in my house. For instance, I have
one candidate, I will call him Bouche although that is not
his real name, who talks too much! One day I quarreled
with a candidate because he, in the presence of a visiting
Houngan, declared his refusal to participate in a sea
ceremony for La Sirene - rather than waiting for the visitor
to leave and then telling me he can't swim and is afraid
of water. We worked it out amiably in about two minutes,
but this Bouche took it upon himself to go and tell a member
of the candidate's family about the quarrel. The family
member then told me.
The next day, I and the candidate confronted Bouche. He
denied it until we informed him that the family member
had told us.
"Bouche", I said, "in Vodou we don't put people outside, at
least not permanently. If I have a monkey in my house, I
am the one who let the monkey in, and I have to manage
my monkey, but I can't say the monkey isn't mine! So -
instead of sur point, you will kouche for hounsi, until you learn
to respect your mouth and keep it shut."
>And what are some
>of
>the consequences you can expect if you shirk those responsibilities? You say
>that "at best" you get a hot head and bad behavior: what can happen at worst?
I know of one individual who talked, he revealed the secrets
of the djevo to a non-initiate. He died shortly thereafter,
he was killed by a truck which backed up into him and
crushed his jaw and throat.
Kevin Filan
>
>In article <fP7I6.8001$SZ5.6...@www.newsranger.com>, Kevin
>Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
>>>That house is something of an "outlaw" house,
>>>not because they are gay but because they don't
>>>follow the rules
>>
>>Are you saying that they do not have lwa, and that they are not capable of
>>introducing a prospective initiate to the lwa? If I were to go to this house
>>and be initiated there, would my asson be utterly worthless in dealing with
>>the
>>lwa and the ancestors?
>
>If you were initiated in that house, you would not be considered
>authentic in the Vodouisant community,
Which "Vodousiant community" are you talking about? Are you saying that NOBODY
recognizes this house -- not even gay and lesbian Houngans and Mambos? And this
doesn't address my primary concerns, namely: do these people have lwa? In other
words, do the *lwa* regularly see fit to come down and possess these
"inauthentic" Vodouisants? Do the *lwa* recognize them as Houngans or Mambos?
I'm assuming (and you, or any other Vodouisant on here is free to correct me if
I am wrong) that one of the main reasons one gets the asson is so that the lwa
will recognize your rank and your lineage -- and act accordingly. Do these
"inauthentic" Vodouisants get results from their work?
If their initiations are good enough for the lwa, then they're good enough for
me: I'm far more interested in what Gineh thinks of my asson than what any
"Vodouisant community"
> especially among
>those who knew where you were initiated. You might be
>able to get over a little bit in a house where you were a total
>stranger, with the reservation that without a "temwen", a
>witness, you wouldn't get into the djevo and you wouldn't
>find people willing to do all ceremonial gestures with you.
So these people of whom you speak basically do "their own thing" and have no
contact whatsoever with any other Vodouisants? That's very interesting... it
rather reminds me of the "Houses" which have formed among New York's
transgendered communities. (See "Paris is Burning" for further details).
>And of course in that particular case, your temwen wouldn't
>be able to do much for you, since you were initiated in a
>very doubtful house to begin with.
Again: if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that no Haitian, in Haiti or
the Diaspora, would recognize an initiation from this house as having any value.
Is that what you are saying? If you are saying that "No real practitioner of
AUTHENTIC Vodou would recognize them, I would hope you avoid circular
definitions i.e.
"No real practitioner of authentic Vodou would recognize that initiation!"
"Well, Houngan X. seems to think they're valid."
"He's not a REAL practitioner."
"Why not?"
"Because he recognizes those inauthentic Voduoisants... "
>And yes, your asson would be worthless.
So you are saying that the lwa do not recognize their asson. Does this mean
that the people of this house fake their possessions, or that the lwa do not
recognize their rank when they give the passwords and gestures?
>You know, the rules and regulations of the djevo are not a
>game, and we don't have them because we are trying
>to be cute, we have them because they REALLY WORK!
I'm not saying that they are a game, or that you are trying to be "cute." I am
merely trying to determine what constitutes "authentic" Haitian Vodou and what
constitutes "inauthentic" Haitian Vodou.
For most Western Esoteric types coming to Haiti, getting in contact with the lwa
and learning the proper regleman for dealing with those lwa is the most
important thing. If the folks at Mambo RuPaul's Hounfour Of Style (sorry,
Eoghan, I couldn't resist... ) could get me in touch with the lwa and give me an
asson which the lwa recognized, I and most Western Esotericists I know would
consider that kanzo to be "authentic." If Loko and Ayizan are willing to show
up at these initiations and present the candidates with the asson, who am I to
question THEIR judgment?
>>I've heard from others who disagree with you, and claim that the major
>>problem
>>is one of expense.
>
>That is false. You have heard, you have heard... from WHO?
>Are they initaites? If so, where were they initiated? Haiti,
>I bet. :-)
I would prefer not to bring a few names into this discussion so as not to turn
it into Yet Another Flamefest... but I suspect you know who I am talking about.
Why, specifically, do you believe that one can only be initiated in Haiti? If
the herbs in question could be procured fresh (or grown here in a greenhouse if
need be), and if one had a djevo and the appropriate staff, why could these
initiations not be performed in Miami?
(If you say "Because the lwa only want us to be initiated in Haiti," I'm going
to find that rather odd... after all, they could just as easily have said
"Sorry, we only want you to be initiated in our homeland Africa.")
>I know there are people in New York City who will initiate others
>"hounsi kanzo" in NYC. Those initiates are generally not
>regarded as correct, and they usually go to Haiti to repeat
>their ceremonies or to take a higher grade at the earliest
>possible opportunity.
>
>However, it is possible to do many, many other ceremonies
>in the USA! This obsession with initiations obscures the
>fact that lave tet (head washing), maryaj lwa (marriage to
>a lwa), bay lwa manje (giving the lwa food), retire mo nan
>dlo (taking the dead from the water), dances, calling the
>lwa in consultation, all can be done in the USA or
>anywhere else!
In fact most of those ceremonies ARE done in my neighborhood ... or about a mile
therefrom. (I do not know if initiations are held in my neighborhood or not).
>>There are various well-stocked botanicas in my Brooklyn neighborhood which
>>carry
>>all kinds of Haitian stuff, including herbs like Fey Kapab and Ave Maria.
>
>You know, Kevin, you and your big mouth are the reason why
>I now am very reluctant to have people present at a kanzo
So sorry, me no mean to spill Ancient Haitian Secret...
Ave Maria = what Lukumi folk call "Anamu." I do not have the common name of Fey
Kapab handy, but I know at least one Houngan Asogwe who has posted information
on this -- and on other herbs used in Haitian Vodou -- to this and other public
forums.
(Please note that I do *not* know what leaves or other substances are used in
the kanzo ceremony, and should *not* be consulted as an expert on herbology in
Haitian vodou and folk medicine. I do know that many of the herbs commonly used
in Haitian Vodou are found in the United States i.e. Ezili Freda's favorite,
basil. In Vodou Ave Maria/anamu is used, as in Lukumi, as a cleanser and
spiritual disinfectant; Fey Kapab is used to "heat up" spirits, much as "champa"
is used to "heat up" spirits in Palo).
>who are not going to be initiated and are not going to take the
>vows of secrecy.
Your insistence on "secrecy" here brings to mind Crowley's comment about how the
Golden Dawn swore him to the most terrible oaths of secrecy, then gave into his
keeping the Hebrew alphabet. I was of the impression that Vodou's "oaths of
secrecy" were concerned only with what goes on in the Djevo or with certain
secret societies i.e. the Sanpwel. And anyway, most of this information is
available to anyone who reads *El Monte* and who knows a little bit about botany
and taxonomy.
> Although those leaves pertain specifically to
>ceremonies other than the kanzo,
Ave Maria is one of the leaves which can be used in a Lave Tet: there are others
which are used as well. The Peanut Gallery is advised to note that this
information, IN AND OF ITSELF, does NOT give you everything which you need to
perform an effective full-scale Lave Tet.
>Furthermore, even if you could obtain the leaves, they
>would be thousands of miles from their places of origin, they
>could not possibly be picked within the time required
>for their use, and so on.
That is why we have greenhouses... :)
I had not heard that initiations were taking place in New York, but had heard of
initiations in Miami. That would make sense: it's not all that difficult to fly
herbs over from Port-au-Prince to Miami within a couple of hours.
> There is a lot you and your
>"folks who told you" this or that do not know, you because
>you are not initiated and they because they simply
>don't have the experience!
When I next stop by Botanique Marche Laurent in Flatbush, I will have to ask the
proprietress if in fact people can be initiated in America, and/or if they have
been initiated. (I'll also be sure to ask her her initiatory status, who
initiated her, and where and when she was initiated). I will certainly be
interested in hearing how the Haitian community in America feels about this.
>Haitian Houngans and Mambos know this too! No
>one does an initiation entirely on their own, Houngans
>and Mambos always consult with their seniors, and when
>possible invite them to assist.
I was under the impression that one could *not* do an initiation entirely on
your own. (If you're capable of shaking an asson, beating a drum, smacking a
machete on a plate, and undergoing possession all at one time, you're a better
Mambo than I... )
>>Again, are you saying that one can only be introduced to the lwa and given
>>adje
>>and lineage in Haiti by a practitioner of orthodox Vodou?
>
>First of all, we do not use the term "adje", that is a conceit
>invented by someone who had better remain nameless.
>The term has been used as the title of a CD by a
>Vodou-pop band, I suppose that is where he got it, but
>I have not heard it used in peristyles in Haiti.
I suspect it comes from the Lukumi "Ashe" and is used most commonly among
Haitians near the Dominican border, but that would just be a guess.
>A correct djevo, by definition, can not be made in Miami
>or Brooklyn! The djevo is the room where initiates are
>secluded during initiation.
By whose definition? Where in the Priye Ginen or in the Regleman does it state
that initiations can only be done in Haiti?
Peace
Kevin Filan
The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.
- William Blake
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>>If you were initiated in that house, you would not be considered
>>authentic in the Vodouisant community,
>
>Which "Vodousiant community" are you talking about? Are you saying that
>NOBODY
>recognizes this house -- not even gay and lesbian Houngans and Mambos?
That is right. There are TONS of gay and lesbian Houngans and Mambos
in Vodou, who are correctly initiated, and their sexuality is not an
issue in Vodou. Then there are some people whose initiations
are considered incorrect, and that is a BIG issue.
I know of gay Houngans in the very same neighborhood as this house,
who do not recognize these initiates as authentic and who will
have nothing to do with them, in fact.
>my primary concerns, namely: do these people have lwa?
Kevin, anyone can have lwa, I've told you this so many times I am
getting weary now. You don't have to be initiated to serve the lwa
and you don't have to be initiated to undergo possesion. Initiation
makes service more effective by orders of magnitude, it makes
possession easier by exponential factors. It provides the initiate
with a house, on which they can depend for social services as
well as spiritual... the benefits of initiation are myriad. And of
course there are people who never had lwa before in their lives, who
during initiation ceremonies begin to undergo possession - it happens
all the time in my house, for example.
>do the *lwa* regularly see fit to come down and possess these
>"inauthentic" Vodouisants? Do the *lwa* recognize them as Houngans or
>Mambos?
A person does not have to be initiated to have lwa. A person does
not have to be initiated to have lwa. A person does not have to be
initiated to have lwa. A person does not have to be initiated to have lwa....
>If their initiations are good enough for the lwa, then they're good enough
>for
>me: I'm far more interested in what Gineh thinks of my asson than what any
>"Vodouisant community"
How New Age of you. It is the Vodouisant community, Kevin, which
determines when possessions are considered authentic - plenty
of people fake possession, you know. And it is the Vodouisant
community which provides the framework for the service of
Gine.
What you are saying is like saying, "Well, my pseudo-Roman
Catholic priest has God's blessing in my opinion, so I consider his
masses authentic." It doesn't work that way.
If you want to do things outside the tradition, then call your
religion something else! There is nothing wrong with that, it's just
not Vodou, that's all.
>So these people of whom you speak basically do "their own thing" and have no
>contact whatsoever with any other Vodouisants? That's very interesting... it
>rather reminds me of the "Houses" which have formed among New York's
>transgendered communities. (See "Paris is Burning" for further details).
People can serve the lwa without being initiated. People
who are not initiated can make services for the lwa.
>Again: if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that no Haitian, in Haiti
>or
>the Diaspora, would recognize an initiation from this house as having any
>value.
No "Haitian" or no "Houngan or Mambo"? In the latter case -
If they knew about the house and the inauthentic practices,
then NO. I've said this enough times! In fact, this particular
house, in the Avenue 5ieme de Bolosse area, is notorious, they
are as a rule not invited to dances at neighboring Houngans'
or Mambos' houses, they are certainly not allowed in the djevos
of other Houngans or Mambos.
I am not saying these folks are not Vodouisants, I am saying
they are not correctly initiated and are not recognized as
initiates in that portion of the Vodouisant community which
is familiar with their practices.
>Does this mean
>that the people of this house fake their possessions
Who knows? I am not suggesting that they are not able to
undergo possession. I am tired of repeating myself.
>I
>am
>merely trying to determine what constitutes "authentic" Haitian Vodou and
>what
>constitutes "inauthentic" Haitian Vodou.
No you aren't, if that were your concern you have all the
information you need.
This business about "the lwa recognize" this or that inauthentic
practice is nonsense by definition. A person claiming to have lwa
is regarded with a degree of healthy skepticism, not slavish
adoration. For more information on this, see "What the Lwa Say -
and What They DON'T Say", under Special Topics on The VODOU
Page.
>I and most Western Esotericists I know would
>consider that kanzo to be "authentic."
Who cares? This religion is not run by Western Esotericists,
and you are not even a hounsi kanzo, much less a Houngan.
>If Loko and Ayizan are willing to
>show
>up at these initiations and present the candidates with the asson, who am I
>to
>question THEIR judgment?
If "Loko and Ayizan" supposedly show up and give the asson
at an inauthentic kanzo, then those possessions are fake, bogus.
You don't have the experience to know this, but Loko, when
he appears at a ceremony, can become incredibly violent if the
slightest detail of ritual observance is neglected. I can just
imagine what he would do with initiates wearing the prescribed
clothes of the opposite sex! You are trying to live a fantasy,
it's not the reality of Vodou.
>Why, specifically, do you believe that one can only be initiated in Haiti?
>If
>the herbs in question could be procured fresh (or grown here in a greenhouse
>if
>need be), and if one had a djevo and the appropriate staff, why could these
>initiations not be performed in Miami?
Because, Kevin, there is more to it than just getting certain leaves!
I am at a bit of a disadvantage here since a lot of these requirements
are secret, but I assure you that if you knew them, and if you
had spent enough time after your kanzo assisting at legitimate
ceremonies to learn all the details, you would see why this is.
>>You know, Kevin, you and your big mouth are the reason why
>>I now am very reluctant to have people present at a kanzo
>>[who are not going to be initiated and who are not going to
>
>So sorry, me no mean to spill Ancient Haitian Secret...
Yes you did. The other person who blabbed about this was the same
person who has given a lot of other bogus information.
Kevin, you learned some information in Haiti which I apparently
should not have allowed you to know. Yabofe and I were
concerned about this, and you promised us you would keep it
a secret, now you are talking. What is that about?
Kevin! Be quiet! Don't talk about those leaves anymore!
Kevin! Be quiet! Don't talk about those leaves anymore!
Kevin! Be quiet! Don't talk about those leaves anymore!
There, now, I've told you three times, if you keep it up
it's on you, not on me.
>>Haitian Houngans and Mambos know this too! No
>>one does an initiation entirely on their own, Houngans
>>and Mambos always consult with their seniors, and when
>>possible invite them to assist.
>
>I was under the impression that one could *not* do an initiation entirely on
>your own. (If you're capable of shaking an asson, beating a drum, smacking a
>machete on a plate, and undergoing possession all at one time, you're a
>better
>Mambo than I... )
A Houngan or Mambo must be assisted by *hounsis*. It is desirable
to be assisted by *more experienced Houngans and Mambos*. If
you would read more carefully I would have to repeat myself
less often.
>By whose definition? Where in the Priye Ginen or in the Regleman does it
>state
>that initiations can only be done in Haiti?
You will find out when and if you are correctly initiated, and after
you return to assist at the kanzos of others.
Kevin, you don't get any status or authority in Vodou just by
banging on your keyboard about what "you and other Western
Esotericists" consider authentic. That's just absurd, not to
mention disrespectful to the Vodou.
Kevin Filan
I'm responding to two posts here, one by Racine and one from Eoghan. In an
earlier post regarding the role divination plays in Palo Mayombe, Eoghan said:
* * * * *
First of all, the single most important method of divination in Palo is
through possession trance. The firect consultation of spirits. This form
of divination which is a common practice among Bantu peoples throughout
their entire area is at the opposite end of the pendulum (if I may be
forgiven the image) from the form of mechanical divination without
possession used in most varieties or derivatives of the Yoruban
traditions.
In Palo generally initiaition or other rituals are usually suggested and
confirmed first by mechanical divination in a consultation or
alternately by a spirit either in a conslutation or during rituals in
the case of people who are already in the religion. Likewise, although
most paleros will have extensive sets of tratados for various kinds of
trabajos or spells, in practice these are varied and ultimately
suggested most often by a spirit.
This approach is different from that in Ocha where each marca or letra
in a reading has a specific tratado for ebo and all is determined
through the mark that is cast. In Palo you can have a different trabajo
done everytime a specific situation arises if that is what the spirits
and nkisi dictate.
Bantu religion is a very different creature from Yoruban religion.
* * * * *
Since possession plays such an enormous role in all of these religions, I am
interested in exploring that role and how it is played out in the various
traditions. Please excuse the length of this post, but it's obviously a big
topic.
>That is right. There are TONS of gay and lesbian Houngans and Mambos
>in Vodou, who are correctly initiated, and their sexuality is not an
>issue in Vodou. Then there are some people whose initiations
>are considered incorrect, and that is a BIG issue.
The concept of "temwen" strikes me as a very important key to understanding the
structure of Vodou. It is necessary to know the passwords and the signs, true
.. but the knowledge of those passwords and signs will not be particularly
useful to you unless you can find a "temwen" ... someone *who will vouch for
you.* A Roman Catholic priest can assist at a Mass, or at any function of the
church, anywhere in the world. A Houngan Asogwe without a "temwen," on the
other hand will find herself shut out from the "Vodouisant community" ... or at
least that portion of the "Voduoisant Community" which doesn't know him
personally. (I'd even bet that a validly initiated Houngan Asogwe could be
shut out if his temwen gave a negative report about his behavior or his
abilities).
Honestly, I suspect that there is no "Vodouisant community" at all. Rather,
there is a confederation of separate and discrete houses, the rites of which may
encompass numerous variations of a greater or lesser degree. Although Vodou is
strongly influenced by Roman Catholicism, in structure it more resembles the
various communions of Evangelical churches in the United States. That is to
say: there are certain things which EVERY Evangelical church would reject. There
are certain things which would be more tolerated in some churches than others
(divorce, say, or card playing). There are certain songs and sermon topics
which would appear frequently in some churches, but not in all. Yet few of them
would say that there is One True Way of Being an Evangelical Christian. And
only the most arrogant or most deluded would try to claim that he had the right
to speak for all of Evangelical Christianity. What I am interested in is where
that border ends and begins in Haitian Vodou.
(If Racine is correct in your repeated assertion that Vodou is "about power, not
morality," then I would expect that results would go a long way toward
determining what is or is not legitimate. If this Houngan/Mambo and hir house
got good results from their work, then I would guess that their idiosyncracies
would be tolerated a lot more than if they didn't get those results).
In my experience, those who claim there is One Correct Way to do things are
typically trying to sell you an unspoken corollary: and I know that One Correct
Way.
>>my primary concerns, namely: do these people have lwa?
>
>Kevin, anyone can have lwa, I've told you this so many times I am
>getting weary now. You don't have to be initiated to serve the lwa
>and you don't have to be initiated to undergo possesion. Initiation
I was aware that you do not have to be initiated to serve the lwa, and I was
also aware that the lwa sometimes possess people who are not initated. There's
no need for either of us to belabor that point in the future.
My question is this: I presume that the lwa, when they come, will respond
differently to an initiated person, who knows the signs and the passwords, than
they will to a non-initiate. Is this correct?
(Eoghan: I'd pose the same question to you, only substitute the word "nkisi" or
other appropriate term. When a spirit mounts somebody at a Palo ceremony, will
that spirit respond differently to a tata than it will to a bystander? I'm
presuming that one of the benefits of becoming initiated in Palo is that a
spirit will recognize your rank and respond accordingly: if I'm incorrect,
please feel free to correct me).
Let me give you an example: you, me and Mambo RuPaul, my example from before,
are at a fet in Crown Heights. At this fet Met Agwe makes an appearance,
possessing someone standing not far from us. Both you and Mambo RuPaul give Met
Agwe the appropriate signs and the passwords of your degree. Since I don't have
any rank in Haitian Vodou, I merely say "Greetings, Met Agwe!" and begin humming
one of his songs in my inimitable atonal way.
(a) How will Met Agwe respond to your words and your signs?
(b) How will Met Agwe respond to Mambo RuPaul's use of the same words and signs?
(c) How will Met Agwe respond to my saying "Greetings, Met Agwe?" and doing my
best to hum along with his song.
(Eoghan: as above, substitute appropriate Palo spirit).
>makes service more effective by orders of magnitude, it makes
>possession easier by exponential factors. It provides the initiate
>with a house, on which they can depend for social services as
>well as spiritual... the benefits of initiation are myriad. And of
In the case of the "outlaw house" you mentioned, it appears the initiates were
reaping at least some social benefit by joining together. As for their
spiritual benefits: it appears that they at least are content with their house.
>course there are people who never had lwa before in their lives, who
>during initiation ceremonies begin to undergo possession - it happens
>all the time in my house, for example.
And I wonder if it occurs as frequently during Mambo RuPaul's "bogus" initiation
ceremonies.
>A person does not have to be initiated to have lwa. A person does
>not have to be initiated to have lwa. A person does not have to be
>initiated to have lwa. A person does not have to be initiated to have lwa....
As I said above, I am aware of that.
Do the *lwa* recognize them as Houngans and Mambos? I'd type it three times, but
I'm hoping that once more will be sufficient.
Did Papa Loko come down and hand out the assons?
If not, then I presume you're saying they faked their possessions?
If so, is it usual for the "Vodouisant community" to reject Papa Loko's
judgment?
>
>>If their initiations are good enough for the lwa, then they're good enough
>>for
>>me: I'm far more interested in what Gineh thinks of my asson than what any
>>"Vodouisant community"
>
>How New Age of you. It is the Vodouisant community, Kevin, which
>determines when possessions are considered authentic - plenty
>of people fake possession, you know.
OK, here is yet another example. I presume that you accept Yabofe Bon Houngan
Danise David's asson as valid, do you not?
I can tell you now that, in my presence, Yabofe claimed that you faked a La
Sirene possession. (To be more specific, the possession which took place while
everyone was stringing their Kolyes).
Also in my presence, while Danise was ridden by Gran Bwa, I heard Gran Bwa refer
to you as "Katy Evangeliste" (Kathy the Evangelist) and say laughingly that you
made him (Gran Bwa) "crazy in the head." When I mentioned this to you later,
you snorted and said that this sounded like a "phony baloney possession."
In other words: we have here two people, both of whom have the asson and both of
whom are presumably qualified to speak for the "Vodouisant Community," each
claiming that the other faked a possession. What should we make of this?
(For what it's worth: I do not believe that Danise's Gran Bwa possession was
faked. Nobody drinks a fifth of Barbancourt and walks away in a straight
line... particularly not somebody who a couple days later gets tipsy off two
fingers of Scotch. If that wasn't Gran Bwa sucking down that rum, then Papa
Danise had a hollow leg which somehow got filled in over the course of 48 hours
or so... ).
> And it is the Vodouisant
>community which provides the framework for the service of
>Gine.
>
>What you are saying is like saying, "Well, my pseudo-Roman
>Catholic priest has God's blessing in my opinion, so I consider his
>masses authentic." It doesn't work that way.
If that pseudo-Roman Catholic priest was regularly healing the sick and
performing miracles, I'd be a *lot* more likely to say that, actually.
>>I
>>am
>>merely trying to determine what constitutes "authentic" Haitian Vodou and
>>what
>>constitutes "inauthentic" Haitian Vodou.
>
>No you aren't, if that were your concern you have all the
>information you need.
Actually, I do not. I have my own brief experience in Haiti, combined with my
studies and what I have heard from other people, you included. I recognize your
experience in Haiti, but I do not recognize you as the Definitive Authority on
Haitian Vodou. Vodou doesn't have a pope and even if it did I don't see any
white silk beanie on your head. As such, I'm willing to entertain opinions from
other validly initiated people, and from other people who like yourself have
done scholarly research into Vodou and Haitian culture.
>This business about "the lwa recognize" this or that inauthentic
>practice is nonsense by definition. A person claiming to have lwa
>is regarded with a degree of healthy skepticism, not slavish
>adoration. For more information on this, see "What the Lwa Say -
>and What They DON'T Say", under Special Topics on The VODOU
>Page.
Alas, that page has nothing about faked La Sirene or Gran Bwa possessions, so it
doesn't really help in the "Yabofe v. Racine" case I cited above. While it does
give some helpful pointers to obvious screwups (i.e. Damballah getting up and
walking around, Danto declaiming at length in Kreyol), it doesn't really address
"grey areas." (I'm pretty sure that either you or Aboudja, for example, could
fake a Damballah possession well enough to fool any uninformed bystanders and
even a few Vodouisants. Note that I'm not saying that either of you WOULD ...
just that you both have the knowledge and the direct experience to pull off a
scam which would appear reasonably convincing.
>>If Loko and Ayizan are willing to
>>show
>>up at these initiations and present the candidates with the asson, who am I
>>to
>>question THEIR judgment?
>
>If "Loko and Ayizan" supposedly show up and give the asson
>at an inauthentic kanzo, then those possessions are fake, bogus.
Forgive me, but this sounds like more circular reasoning.
"That wasn't an authentic Kanzo."
"Of course it was. Loko and Ayizan showed up."
"They COULDN'T show up!"
"Why not?"
"Because it wasn't an authentic Kanzo!"
>You don't have the experience to know this, but Loko, when
>he appears at a ceremony, can become incredibly violent if the
>slightest detail of ritual observance is neglected. I can just
>imagine what he would do with initiates wearing the prescribed
>clothes of the opposite sex! You are trying to live a fantasy,
>it's not the reality of Vodou.
Well, then apparently this house is also living out a fantasy, as they seem to
believe that Loko and Ayizan are giving out assons in their djevo.
>>So sorry, me no mean to spill Ancient Haitian Secret...
>
>Yes you did. The other person who blabbed about this was the same
>person who has given a lot of other bogus information.
When two people who are validly initiated Asogwe disagree with each other, which
opinion represents that of the "Vodouisant community?"
>Kevin, you don't get any status or authority in Vodou just by
>banging on your keyboard about what "you and other Western
>Esotericists" consider authentic. That's just absurd, not to
>mention disrespectful to the Vodou.
I'm not particularly interested in gaining "status or authority" in Vodou. Even
if I were, I very much doubt that getting an asson in and of itself would convey
upon me any of the above. Respect is not something which can be conferred: it
has to be earned... particularly in a system which demands not only that I know
the appropriate passes, but also that I have someone to vouch for me.
In any event: I apologize for giving Bondye, Gineh, and the Lwa respect and
authority which is rightly due to you and to other members of the Vodouisant
Community. I shall endeavor in the future to show this Vodouisant Community
respect, at least as soon as I find it.
Peace
Kevin Filan
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
-- William Blake
Eoghan Ballard
I'm staying out of this one mostly. To offer a brief response, yes as a
general rule a spirit during possession will recognize an initiated palero
and a Tata - especially one who has the same nkisi as his father.
If you have a question or two, within the limits of what can be said,
direct it to me and I will answer as best I can. What by the way, is your
thesis topic? I hope you offer the courtesy of formally requesting
permission to quote before incorporating people's responses and credit
them appropriately should they not request anonymity.
Eoghan
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>The concept of "temwen" strikes me as a very important key to understanding
>the
>structure of Vodou. It is necessary to know the passwords and the signs,
>true
>.. but the knowledge of those passwords and signs will not be particularly
>useful to you unless you can find a "temwen" ... someone *who will vouch for
>you.*
And once again Kevin goes screaming off into left field! LOL!
The passwords and the handshakes are useful to us of course, otherwise
we wouldn't have them. They identify initiates to one another. However,
when going to a completely new area it is *USEFUL* to have a temwen
to vouch for you, someone who can say, "I was present at Jane's
initiation, and I know she is sur point and not a hounsi kanzo." That
does not mean that without a temwen you would never be able to
establish your credibility, just that it would take more time and
effort. If I just show up out of the blue and say, "Hey, I'm a
Mambo asogwe", it is perfectly normal and natural for people to
ask for a reference, just like if I say, "Hey, I'm a doctor", it is
normal for a hospital to ask for references, not just my
diplomas.
> A Roman Catholic priest can assist at a Mass, or at any function of
>the
>church, anywhere in the world.
So if you put on a robe and go down to the local Catholic
church and say, "I am a priest", you imagine that they are
going to let you assist at Mass? Of course they are going
to make phone calls if you don't come in with someone
they know who can vouch for you. You are being
ridiculous.
>A Houngan Asogwe without a "temwen," on the
>other hand will find herself shut out from the "Vodouisant community"
No, they won't be shut out, that is false. Why do you
keep saying stuff like this which is untrue? You don't
know what you are talking about in any case, you
are not an initiate and have very little experience of
Haiti in general or Vodou in particular.
If you go to a new house without a temwen, you would
still be allowed to participate in the dance they are holding,
you just would be unlikely to get into the djevo right away,
and if you claim to be asogwe the Houngan or Mambo
asogwe running the dance would be unlikely to touch heads
with you, that's all.
If I am at a dance, even in Jacmel, and someone comes
up to me wanting to touch heads with me, I turn to
someone I know and say, "Is that person asgowe for
real?" If yes, fine, if not, then I don't touch heads with
them, but they don't get thrown out of the dance.
>(I'd even bet that a validly initiated Houngan Asogwe could be
>shut out if his temwen gave a negative report about his behavior or his
>abilities).
No! That is not true at all. Suppose I stumbled across Yabofe
at a dance somewhere outside Jacmel, and I was asked,
"Is that guy a Houngan?" For me to get up and say, "He beats
his women, he stole money from foreign initiates, he fakes
his lwa sometimes", would mean very little, the question is,
"Is that guy a Houngan?", not "Is he a nice person?"
>Honestly, I suspect that there is no "Vodouisant community" at all.
LOL! Oh, I'm dyin' laffin here - go tell the Houngans and Mambos
of Jacmel that there is no Vodouisant community. Go tell
the members of the national organizations like Zantray and
Bode Nasyonal. Oh, you didn't know there are national
Vodouisant organizations in Haiti? Gee.
>separate and discrete houses, the rites of which
>may
>encompass numerous variations of a greater or lesser degree.
While one Houngan or Mambo may serve a particular lwa
more than another Houngan or Mambo, there are some things
about which we all agree, some things which are always
required and some things which are always forbidden.
>What I am interested in is
>where
>that border ends and begins in Haitian Vodou.
No, you aren't. You are interested in propagandizing for
your little buddies who hope to make money doing initiations
in the USA. This is all about greed, and little about the
Vodou.
Go back and read the aro archives, folks, and have a look
at the smear campaign Kevin assisted before I was even a part
of this forum! He falsely asserted that I had stolen money
from him, he claimed that I had not done his lave tet even
though it is on videotape... Kevin, you told me, on tape, that
I had "saved your life"! I warned you not to backslide into
Satanism and pornography and all that other stuff, but you
wouldn't listen and here is the result - a bunch of
perverse, pointless activity. SHAME!
>In my experience, those who claim there is One Correct Way to do things are
>typically trying to sell you an unspoken corollary: and I know that One
>Correct
>Way.
I am NOT the only authentic Mambo in Haiti! It is the tradition
which requires authenticity, not me personally, and I am amazed
that until now you have not managed to understand that
distinction.
>My question is this: I presume that the lwa, when they come, will respond
>differently to an initiated person, who knows the signs and the passwords,
>than
>they will to a non-initiate. Is this correct?
No.
>Did Papa Loko come down and hand out the assons? [...in the house
where the men wore women's clothes.]
I do not know, I was not there, I beat it out of there once I saw
what they were up to.
>If not, then I presume you're saying they faked their possessions?
Yes, in that case.
>OK, here is yet another example. I presume that you accept Yabofe Bon
>Houngan
>Danise David's asson as valid, do you not?
Yes.
>I can tell you now that, in my presence, Yabofe claimed that you faked a La
>Sirene possession. (To be more specific, the possession which took place
>while
>everyone was stringing their Kolyes).
I can tell you now that, in my presence, Yabofe claimed that
you are an imbecile who would never be qualified for
initiation in his house, and that Emile should have let
you get lost in Port-au-Prince when you wandered away
from him on the way to the airport. That is the way
he does his thing, he plays people off against each
other with a lot of backbiting and secrets. If he thought
I was faking, he never confronted me, never said
to me that he didn't want people faking in his house,
never did any of the things that I would do if I felt that
someone was faking lwa in my house. Yabofe knows damn
well that I don't fake lwa, and he saw the material benefits
of the lwa's work in my life! He also saw the negative
results that took place when he failed to behave honestly,
when he stole money from the suitcases of the July
2000 initiates, and so on. Now he's broke, he's the
laughingstock of Jacmel, and it serves him right.
Yabofe told a LOT of big lies, in the hopes of taking over 100%
of the profits of the kanzo, which weren't much to begin with.
Yabofe got sanctioned for this, and thrown rather violently out of
a huge assembly of Houngans and Mambos in Jacmel, for precisely
that kind of kaka. He is doing better than you, though, he learned
the error of his ways and now does what the tradition requires - he
vouches for me publicly just as I acknowledge him.
I don't have to fake possession, Kevin, I started having lwa long
ago before I even knew what it was.
>(For what it's worth: I do not believe that Danise's Gran Bwa possession was
>faked. Nobody drinks a fifth of Barbancourt and walks away in a straight
>line...
Danise (Yabofe) drinks a fifth every day! LOL! If he got high of some Scotch
it's because he had plenty to drink before the Scotch, he is a very
heavy drinker.
>>What you are saying is like saying, "Well, my pseudo-Roman
>>Catholic priest has God's blessing in my opinion, so I consider his
>>masses authentic." It doesn't work that way.
>
>If that pseudo-Roman Catholic priest was regularly healing the sick and
>performing miracles, I'd be a *lot* more likely to say that, actually.
You might say he healed a sick person. That doesn't make him
a Roman Catholic priest.
>>If "Loko and Ayizan" supposedly show up and give the asson
>>at an inauthentic kanzo, then those possessions are fake, bogus.
>
>Forgive me, but this sounds like more circular reasoning.
TOO BAD! This is the way it is in Vodou, I am not making it up
but merely reporting the facts.
>>You don't have the experience to know this, but Loko, when
>>he appears at a ceremony, can become incredibly violent if the
>>slightest detail of ritual observance is neglected. I can just
>>imagine what he would do with initiates wearing the prescribed
>>clothes of the opposite sex! You are trying to live a fantasy,
>>it's not the reality of Vodou.
>
>Well, then apparently this house is also living out a fantasy, as they seem
>to
>believe that Loko and Ayizan are giving out assons in their djevo.
RIGHT!
Kevin Filan
>
>In article <71QI6.2097$vg1.1...@www.newsranger.com>, Kevin
>Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>And once again Kevin goes screaming off into left field! LOL!
>
>The passwords and the handshakes are useful to us of course, otherwise
>we wouldn't have them. They identify initiates to one another. However,
>when going to a completely new area it is *USEFUL* to have a temwen
>to vouch for you, someone who can say, "I was present at Jane's
>initiation, and I know she is sur point and not a hounsi kanzo."
From your message of Friday, May 3, 2001
Message-ID: <20010503181033...@nso-fq.aol.com>
* * * * *
If you were initiated in that house, you would not be considered authentic in
the Vodouisant community, especially among those who knew where you were
initiated. You might be able to get over a little bit in a house where you were
a total stranger, with the reservation that without a "temwen", a witness, you
wouldn't get into the djevo and you wouldn't find people willing to do all
ceremonial gestures with you. And of course in that particular case, your temwen
wouldn't be able to do much for you, since you were initiated in a
very doubtful house to begin with.
* * * * *
Based on what you said there, it sounds like a temwen is a little bit more than
just useful.
> That
>does not mean that without a temwen you would never be able to
>establish your credibility, just that it would take more time and
>effort.
* * * * *
Ahhh... so what you are saying is that if I knew the passwords and *if* I were
able to prove to these people that I was a credible Houngan, I could indeed get
accepted by them, even if I were initiated in a house which Mambo Racine Sans
But considers dodgy.
Thank you. That was exactly what I thought.
* * * * *
> If I just show up out of the blue and say, "Hey, I'm a
>Mambo asogwe", it is perfectly normal and natural for people to
>ask for a reference, just like if I say, "Hey, I'm a doctor", it is
>normal for a hospital to ask for references, not just my
>diplomas.
* * * * *
>
>> A Roman Catholic priest can assist at a Mass, or at any function of
>>the
>>church, anywhere in the world.
>
>So if you put on a robe and go down to the local Catholic
>church and say, "I am a priest", you imagine that they are
>going to let you assist at Mass? Of course they are going
>to make phone calls if you don't come in with someone
>they know who can vouch for you. You are being
>ridiculous.
Here's a question: if I went to the late Luc Gedeon's house and asked his widow
or his children to vouch for you, what kind of response would I get?
>>A Houngan Asogwe without a "temwen," on the
>>other hand will find herself shut out from the "Vodouisant community"
>
>No, they won't be shut out, that is false. Why do you
>keep saying stuff like this which is untrue?
As I said, I was only going on what you told me. Thank you for clarifying your
earlier statement.
>If you go to a new house without a temwen, you would
>still be allowed to participate in the dance they are holding,
>you just would be unlikely to get into the djevo right away,
>and if you claim to be asogwe the Houngan or Mambo
>asogwe running the dance would be unlikely to touch heads
>with you, that's all.
OK. So then the passwords and gestures can provide you with a *chance* to prove
your credibility; a temwen helps but is optional. This makes sense.
>If I am at a dance, even in Jacmel, and someone comes
>up to me wanting to touch heads with me, I turn to
>someone I know and say, "Is that person asgowe for
>real?" If yes, fine, if not, then I don't touch heads with
>them, but they don't get thrown out of the dance.
>
>>(I'd even bet that a validly initiated Houngan Asogwe could be
>>shut out if his temwen gave a negative report about his behavior or his
>>abilities).
>
>No! That is not true at all. Suppose I stumbled across Yabofe
>at a dance somewhere outside Jacmel, and I was asked,
>"Is that guy a Houngan?" For me to get up and say, "He beats
>his women, he stole money from foreign initiates, he fakes
>his lwa sometimes", would mean very little, the question is,
>"Is that guy a Houngan?", not "Is he a nice person?"
You're telling me that all Houngans and Mambos must do business with all other
Houngans and Mambos, and that they must include anybody who gives the
appropriate password and gesture X rights and X responsibilities in their
ceremonies (modified to X+1 if they have a temwen or if they otherwise prove
themselves to be credible... )? In other words: if you have a reputation as a
dishonest or unbalanced person, can you still be shut out from the "Vodouisant
Community" despite your rank. (i.e. "I don't care if Djo Blo *IS* a Houngan
Asogwe -- he's never to set foot on my lakou again, dance or no dance!!!")
>>Honestly, I suspect that there is no "Vodouisant community" at all.
>
>LOL! Oh, I'm dyin' laffin here - go tell the Houngans and Mambos
>of Jacmel that there is no Vodouisant community. Go tell
>the members of the national organizations like Zantray and
>Bode Nasyonal. Oh, you didn't know there are national
>Vodouisant organizations in Haiti? Gee.
I'd imagine there are *several* Vodouisant organizations in Haiti, actually.
I'd also imagine that there's some competition between them for members and that
there are numerous variations in the procedures and workings of the various
members of these various organizations. Hell, I'd even imagine there are
occasional doctrinal disputes. But I do not believe that there is One True Way
of doing Haitian Vodou, nor do I believe that you are authorized to speak for
all Vodouisants in Haiti, or even for all Vodouisants in Jacmel.
>While one Houngan or Mambo may serve a particular lwa
>more than another Houngan or Mambo, there are some things
>about which we all agree, some things which are always
>required and some things which are always forbidden.
And you are saying that one of the things which is always required is that any
kanzo be done in Haiti. When asked why, your response has been some variant of
"because I say so, that's why!" or "because I'm Mambo Asogwe and you aren't even
initiated..." It is of course a free country, but I trust you can see why I
don't find this particularly convincing.
>>What I am interested in is
>>where
>>that border ends and begins in Haitian Vodou.
>
>No, you aren't. You are interested in propagandizing for
>your little buddies who hope to make money doing initiations
>in the USA. This is all about greed, and little about the
>Vodou.
>
>Go back and read the aro archives, folks, and have a look
>at the smear campaign Kevin assisted before I was even a part
>of this forum!
Actually, we *were* having a mutually informative discussion here: while I
obviously disagreed with you on a few matters (as do most of the other members
of this forum, initiated or not), I was trying to remain civil.
I am not initiated at present: when I go into the Djevo, I am planning at
present on making Kanzo Semp. Until I've assisted at a few ceremonies and have
the same kind of knowledge base that a Haitian Houngan Si Pwen or Asogwe would
have, I see no reason to take the asson and plenty of reasons why I should not.
I have no vested financial interest in Vodou; I will not make money if my
"little buddies" (whoever they may be) hold initiations in the United States,
nor will I make money if they hold them in Cuba. My story about my August 1999
trip to Haiti, "Gilligan's Inferno" is presently on the editor's desk at a major
publication, but I doubt my initiatory status or lack thereof will have much to
do with their decision on whether or not to print it and pay me for the
privilege. I am not advertising "Initiations" at $2,500 a pop, nor am I
soliciting for clients on Usenet or on mailing lists. (To the best of my
knowledge, neither are any "little friends" of mine).
If we're going to talk about greed and financial incentives, it would seem to me
that you have far more reason to lie about this than I do. Were initiations
into Vodou regularly held in the States, it might well do damage to your
business of package tour initiations in Haiti. I'm not saying that this is your
motivation, merely that you've got far more to gain by lying than I do.
> He falsely asserted that I had stolen money
>from him,
I correctly claimed that you told me I was in need of "rainbow baths," that
these baths were out of "Haitian Vodou" and that you wanted to charge me $357
for them. I also correctly claimed that you "borrowed" over $1,000 from another
member of the August 1999 kanzo and failed to return that money. I did not wish
to bring these matters up, since, as I said, we were having an informative and
enlightening discussion here. If you wish to reopen old wounds, that is your
affair.
> he claimed that I had not done his lave tet even
>though it is on videotape... Kevin, you told me, on tape, that
>I had "saved your life"! I warned you not to backslide into
>Satanism and pornography and all that other stuff, but you
>wouldn't listen and here is the result - a bunch of
>perverse, pointless activity. SHAME!
Why would you be concerned about Satanism? After all, it's just another set of
magical practices which are about power, not morality?
>I am NOT the only authentic Mambo in Haiti! It is the tradition
>which requires authenticity, not me personally, and I am amazed
>that until now you have not managed to understand that
>distinction.
When you've been presented with examples from
>
>>My question is this: I presume that the lwa, when they come, will respond
>>differently to an initiated person, who knows the signs and the passwords,
>>than
>>they will to a non-initiate. Is this correct?
>
>No.
So you're saying that Freda, Ogou Feray, etc. don't care if their servants are
or are not initiated, and that an initiation will not make it easier for me to
do work with the lwa or the spirits? That's odd, especially in the context of
this quote from your May 4, 2001 post:
Message-ID: <20010504164824...@nso-fe.aol.com>
* * * * *
Initiation makes service more effective by orders of magnitude, it makes
possession easier by exponential factors.
* * * * *
I guess I'm wondering how initiation makes service more effective "by orders of
magnitude?"
>>OK, here is yet another example. I presume that you accept Yabofe Bon
>>Houngan
>>Danise David's asson as valid, do you not?
>
>Yes.
>
>>I can tell you now that, in my presence, Yabofe claimed that you faked a La
>>Sirene possession. (To be more specific, the possession which took place
>>while
>>everyone was stringing their Kolyes).
>
>I can tell you now that, in my presence, Yabofe claimed that
>you are an imbecile who would never be qualified for
>initiation in his house, and that Emile should have let
>you get lost in Port-au-Prince when you wandered away
>from him on the way to the airport. That is the way
>he does his thing, he plays people off against each
>other with a lot of backbiting and secrets.
So what you are saying is that you received your asson from a drunken,
backbiting woman-beater who occasionally fakes possessions? That's hardly a
ringing endorsement of your lineage ... nor does it offer a particularly good
example of the spiritual benefits of initiation.
> If he thought
>I was faking, he never confronted me, never said
>to me that he didn't want people faking in his house,
>never did any of the things that I would do if I felt that
>someone was faking lwa in my house. Yabofe knows damn
>well that I don't fake lwa, and he saw the material benefits
>of the lwa's work in my life! He also saw the negative
>results that took place when he failed to behave honestly,
>when he stole money from the suitcases of the July
>2000 initiates, and so on. Now he's broke, he's the
>laughingstock of Jacmel, and it serves him right.
I guess I will find out the next time I am in Jacmel. As I recall, Soutini came
back from her trip to Jacmel with a story which differed from yours in quite a
few particulars. Since Soutini is also, IIRC, Mambo Asogwe, I guess I'm once
again faced with difficulty in determining which of you speaks for the
"Vodouisant Community."
>>(For what it's worth: I do not believe that Danise's Gran Bwa possession was
>>faked. Nobody drinks a fifth of Barbancourt and walks away in a straight
>>line...
>
>Danise (Yabofe) drinks a fifth every day! LOL! If he got high of some Scotch
>it's because he had plenty to drink before the Scotch, he is a very
>heavy drinker.
Funny you should say that. I'm a recovering alcoholic who happens to be VERY
sensitive to the smell of alcohol. In the week that I saw Yabofe around the
lakou, I do not recall any occasions when he reeked of alcohol, other than the
Scotch incident I told you about. I saw him come in before drinking that
Scotch, and did not note a smell of rum, nor did I note any slurred speech or
staggering.
>>>If "Loko and Ayizan" supposedly show up and give the asson
>>>at an inauthentic kanzo, then those possessions are fake, bogus.
>>
>>Forgive me, but this sounds like more circular reasoning.
>
>TOO BAD! This is the way it is in Vodou, I am not making it up
>but merely reporting the facts.
The facts as you see them, perhaps. Or as you would like others to see them.
That does not necessarily mean that they are in accordance with reality.
And you still haven't answered this: if two Asogwes disagree with each other,
which one speaks for the "Vodouisant Community?"
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>Here's a question: if I went to the late Luc Gedeon's house and asked his
>widow
>or his children to vouch for you, what kind of response would I get?
They would say, "She is a Mambo asgowe", what else could
they say? This is what you and a few loose cannons just
don't understand - Vodou is a DISCIPLINE. It doesn't matter if
I like Yabofe or not, I have to call him Papa. It doesn't matter
how many times Aboudja yowls that he doesn't want me for
his maman kanzo, I have to stand up for him if I am asked.
Racine125
a witness to initiation, one more time.
A person who is in their "home" area, who is a Houngan
or Mambo, is generally known to their community. I know
most, if not all, of the Houngans and Mambos asogwe
in Jacmel, for instance.
A person who is not in their home area may not be so
well known. If they are attending a dance by invitiation,
the person inviting them will probably already be filled in
on their rank and on whose house they come from and
so on.
A person who walks into a Vodou dance in an area where
no one knows them, and claims to be a Houngan or Mambo,
especially at the rank of asgowe, is not going to get carte
blanche to do as they please, enter the djevo if a kanzo
is in progress, etc. And it is unlikely that other Houngans
and Mambos asgowe will touch heads with them during
ritual salutations.
Now, if the stranger is willing to sit quietly and be pleasant,
eventually they will be asked for the passwords, or the
opportunity will come up in the ceremony for them to demonstrate
their knowledge of the asson gestures, and so on.
If the Houngan or Mambo in charge decides to trust them
and take their word for it, fine. Sometimes that doesn't
happen right away, sometimes it takes a few visits. (And
if the Houngan or Mambo in charge later discovers that
Houngan Neli Neli kouched kanzo in women's clothes,
Houngan Neli Neli is likely to get run out on a rail, with his
behind burning from the flogging they gave him.)
Sometimes that trust just won't happen unless and until
the person produces a temwen, someone the Houngan
or Mambo in charge knows and trusts. This is usually
the case, especially when the person in question is a
complete unknown.
This is apparently true in the New Orleans community
too - it recently came to my ears that my renegade
son, who lives in New Orleans or at least did the last time
I checked, went to a dance at the establishment of a very
well known Mambo there.
Apparently the dance was for Grand Bwa. The Mambo
in charge had, for whatever reason, designated a certain
area where leaves were being prepared, as off-limits to
people who were not initiated or not of a certain rank, I am
not sure of the details. That is her privilege, it's her house
and she can make this restriction. It wasn't a kanzo
ceremony, it was a dance, but that is her decision.
This renegade son of mine proclaimed himself a Houngan
asogwe, which he is! The person at the door asked
for proof, and apparently my son just continued to insist,
but didn't want to give the handshake. Finally he was
refused entrance, tried to enter anyhow - and was
promptly and permanently ejected from that house.
Now, if I had been there, I would have said, "That is my
son, he is asogwe, I will vouch for him", and assuming that
I had already established my own credentials to the
satisfaction of the Mambo in charge, I assume he would
have been allowed inside.
At kanzos which I do at my house, I ALWAYS make sure
that my initiates have a temwen (other than myself) who is
well known in the Vodou community of Jacmel.
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>If we're going to talk about greed and financial incentives, it would seem to
>me
>that you have far more reason to lie about this than I do. Were initiations
>into Vodou regularly held in the States, it might well do damage to your
>business of package tour initiations in Haiti. I'm not saying that this is
>your
>motivation, merely that you've got far more to gain by lying than I do.
Of all the nerve! First of all, I make very little profit when I
do a kanzo, and what I do profit goes to furnish the house and
care for the members.
Secondly, I do not do "package tour initiations", I perform
correct, authentic initiations recognized as such by the
Vodouisant community.
Thirdly, I do not have to lie in order to "gain" anything, I have
been very successful so far by telling the truth!
>I correctly claimed that you told me I was in need of "rainbow baths," that
>these baths were out of "Haitian Vodou" and that you wanted to charge me $357
>for them.
I told you, Kevin, that I recommended a series of seven baths, that
each bath would cost $51, and that you could do them at your
convenience, one by one. I told you that I would even come to
New York City, at no extra charge to you, in order to do the first
bath for you so that you could see how it should be done. What
an ingrate.
> I also correctly claimed that you "borrowed" over $1,000 from
>another
>member of the August 1999 kanzo and failed to return that money.
THAT IS A GODDAM LIE. I didn't borrow any money from anyone.
I pay my own expenses out of money I earn from my professional
employment.
>I presume that the lwa, when they come, will respond
>>>differently to an initiated person, who knows the signs and the passwords,
>>>than
>>>they will to a non-initiate. Is this correct?
>>
>>No.
>
>So you're saying that Freda, Ogou Feray, etc. don't care if their servants
>are
>or are not initiated, and that an initiation will not make it easier for me
>to
>do work with the lwa or the spirits?
If you and I went somewhere and Ogoun appeared, he would
say, "Bonjou, Mambo Racine" to me and "Bonjou, Kevin"
to you. I can give him the handshake and you can not,
but he would give each of us some of his rum.
If, however, you and I each sat down to call Ogoun to our heads,
I would probably be more successful than you.
>Here's a question: if I went to the late Luc Gedeon's house and asked his
>widow
>or his children to vouch for you, what kind of response would I get?
They would say, "She is a Mambo asgowe", what else could
they say? This is what you and a few loose cannons just
don't understand - Vodou is a DISCIPLINE. It doesn't matter if
I like Yabofe or not, I have to call him Papa. It doesn't matter
how many times Aboudja yowls that he doesn't want me for
his maman kanzo, I have to stand up for him if I am asked.
>So what you are saying is that you received your asson from a drunken,
>backbiting woman-beater who occasionally fakes possessions?
No, you deaf-ears dolt! LOL! I recieved my asson from
PAPA LOKO ATISOU. We don't get our assons from
people, we get them from the LWA.
You know what, Kevin? I have more important things to do with
my time, and the first thing I am going to do is invoke the
Great Lwa IGNORA! LOL!
Eoghan Ballard
follow the same form. It's nature will even change in one person as they
develop more skill and experience. The possessions of a person who has
been doing it for 50 years may be quite different and more adroit then
when they began.
many traditions of course have physical tests to prove the authenticty of
possession. For example the passing of flame over the body without being
burned. There are others and some of these are quite well developed in
certian traditions. In the Mbundu tradition the Quimbanda and Umbanda or
xelador will have various tests that are specific to certain spirits. By
the way, I am referring to the African tradition here and not to Brazilian
Umbanda which obviously has its origins in Angolan religion.
Eoghan
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
> >So what you are saying is that you received your asson from a drunken,
> >backbiting woman-beater who occasionally fakes possessions?
>
> No, you deaf-ears dolt! LOL! I recieved my asson from
> PAPA LOKO ATISOU. We don't get our assons from
> people, we get them from the LWA.
You have stated that Yabofe Houngan Danise David occasionally fakes
possessions when it is convenient for him to do so. How, then, can you
be sure that you did in fact receive your asson from Papa Loko Atisou?
I can see where Danise (or one of his assistants, acting upon his
instructions) would have EVERY incentive to fake a Papa Loko possession
in that situation. There are several initiates in the Djevo: you have
already promised him that you are planning on bringing more initiates to
his house. He knows that if Papa Loko doesn't come and he cancels the
kanzo, you will find another Houngan ... and that houngan will make the
money he would have made otherwise. He's got thousands of dollars worth
of reasons for making sure that everyone in that djevo gets exactly what
they want -- an asson. And you have also said that Danise David is a
greedy, untrustworthy man. Given all that, I'm curious as to why you
are so sure that your asson actually came from Papa Loko.
Peace
Kevin Filan
>
> You know what, Kevin? I have more important things to do with
> my time, and the first thing I am going to do is invoke the
> Great Lwa IGNORA! LOL!
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
>
> "Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
> Haitian Proverb
>
> The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
>
> "Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
> Haitian Proverb
>
> The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
--
light pours from a million radiant lives
off of kids and dogs and the hard-shelled husbands and wives
all that glory shining around and we're all caught
taking a dive
and all the beasts of the hills around shout, "such a waste."
- Bruce Cockburn
Racine125
am familiar with the authentic behavior of that lwa.
That is the advantage of experience. :-)
Actually, all the factors which you are pleased to
characterize as incentives to fake a possession
are actually incentives to make sure a genuine
possession takes place.
Furthermore, the results I have seen from my second
asson are incontrovertible.
But think what you please, wank all you like - I am a
happy camper.
For those genuinely interested in the phenomenon of
possession, and not Kevin Filan's continued wanking,
see "What the Lwa Say - and What They DON'T say,
at http://members.aol.com/racine125/saysay.html .
There is a little bit of information there which may be
of interest to you.
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
>
> I know I got the asson from Loko Atisou because I
> am familiar with the authentic behavior of that lwa.
> That is the advantage of experience. :-)
And Yabofe Bon Houngan Danise David is also, presumably, familiar with
the authentic behavior of that lwa... and, at least according to you,
Yabofe is not above faking a possession on occasion.
> Actually, all the factors which you are pleased to
> characterize as incentives to fake a possession
> are actually incentives to make sure a genuine
> possession takes place.
In the August 1999 Kanzo, there were six paying initiates in the djevo.
You had already told Danise you were planning on bringing more paying
initiates. If Loko doesn't show up and hand out those assons, those
paying initiates are going to feel like they've been cheated. They
might even demand their initation fees back. They most certainly
wouldn't recommend that their friends or acquaintances come down to
Jacmel and make Kanzo at Houngan Danise David's lakou. By making four
blans Asogwe at $2,500 a pop, Danise could gross $10,000 -- no small sum
of money, particularly in Haiti. And, at that time, you were talking
about holding two or three kanzos a year at his lakou. Given that
Danise, again according to your own words, is a greedy and untrustworthy
man, I'd say that he had LOTS of incentive to fake that particular
possession, or to have someone else fake it.
> Furthermore, the results I have seen from my second
> asson are incontrovertible.
I'm interested in hearing more about "retaking the asson" or "gaining a
second asson." Maya Deren and Karen McCarthy Brown never mentioned this
ceremony, and I've never heard of it anywhere else either. I know that
in Lukumi once your head is made that is it -- you do not get your head
"remade" by a new godparent. But, of course, Vodou and Lukumi are very
different practices. And could you tell us some of the benefits which
have accrued to you as a result of your "retaking this asson?"
> But think what you please, wank all you like - I am a
> happy camper.
Please note that I am not saying that he DID fake this possession...
just that, if everything you've told us is true, that this possession
would be suspect at very best. This, to me, would be one of the reasons
WHY you need to trust your initiatory parents. If you get an asson from
a lying, drunken wife-beater who fakes his possessions when it suits his
purposes, then there is NO way of being sure that you got a real asson
... and lots of reasons to think that he put on a show to bilk money out
of some gullible blans.
I note that your second asson doesn't seem to have helped you in your
efforts to invoke the great lwa "Ignora." :)
> For those genuinely interested in the phenomenon of
> possession, and not Kevin Filan's continued wanking,
> see "What the Lwa Say - and What They DON'T say,
> at http://members.aol.com/racine125/saysay.html .
> There is a little bit of information there which may be
> of interest to you.
That article is actually a pretty good start: it shows us a few OBVIOUS
booboos which would mark a possession as spurious, and gives a few
things which are pretty clear indicators that some kind of possession
has taken place. It does not, alas, help you a lot in "gray areas" --
possessions which might be faked or which might be genuine. In those
situations, I'm guessing that the most important thing is that you trust
the horse in question... and based on what you've said, there is no way
that Yabofe Bon Houngan Danise David could pass that particular test.
Peace
Kevin Filan
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
>
> "Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
> Haitian Proverb
>
> The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
>
> "Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
> Haitian Proverb
>
> The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
--
Racine125
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>In the August 1999 Kanzo, there were six paying initiates in the djevo.
>You had already told Danise you were planning on bringing more paying
>initiates. If Loko doesn't show up and hand out those assons, those
>paying initiates are going to feel like they've been cheated. >>
With reason! And that is exactly why there was no question
of bogus possessions - if anyone tried that crap with my
initiates, then they wouldn't be working with me anymore.
You see, Kevin, the kanzo is a framework which provides the
necessary setting to insure that the lwa do indeed come.
> They
>might even demand their initation fees back. They most certainly
>wouldn't recommend that their friends or acquaintances come down to
>Jacmel and make Kanzo at Houngan Danise David's lakou. By making four
>blans Asogwe at $2,500 a pop, Danise could gross $10,000
Just as a point of information, the August 1999 Kanzo group
paid considerably less than the sum you have mentioned.
Kevin, Houngans and Mambos earn money by performing
kanzos, there is nothing new about that, it is always true,
even in all-Haitian houses.
In my house things are a little different - Haitian initiates
*whom I invite* have to provide their white clothes, but that is it.
The fees paid by non-Haitians help to cover their expenses,
which are considerable, and the rest goes to feed members
and pay medical bills and furnish the peristyle and so
on. You seem to think that people are getting filthy
rich, but it isn't so, at least in my case. I am sure this
is so for other Houngans and Mambos too, because there
is a standing joke that Houngans and Mambos never
have any money, it comes in and goes out and we are
lucky to hang onto even a little bit of it.
Remember that a Houngan or Mambo who does not take
care of the material needs of his or her initiates is not
likely to have many more initiates. I remember one Mambo
who was initiated by a Jacmel Houngan, and when she
went to his house to say that she was hungry, he shut the
door in her face. This caused a huge scandal!
>I'm interested in hearing more about "retaking the asson" or "gaining a
>second asson." Maya Deren and Karen McCarthy Brown never mentioned this
>ceremony, and I've never heard of it anywhere else either.
There are actually two Houngans in Jacmel alone who have
two assons, it's not unheard of. The majority of us don't do
this but it's common enough. Reasons include dissatisfaction
with the first initiator, but also a desire to renew committment,
the death of the first initiator and the desire to remain
affiliated with a house, all sorts of things.
>And could you tell us some of the benefits which
>have accrued to you as a result of your "retaking this asson?"
First and most importantly a real "spiritual charge"! My
second kanzo, with Yabofe, was a fantastically positive
experience for me, because I came to it positively. Again,
it's not the Houngan who gives the asson, it's the lwa.
In fact, it was a real boost to my self confidence when
the suleliye took place (that is the ceremony in which the
asson is given to asogwe initaites). Yabofe tried to trick
the initiates out of their assons, didn't want to do the service
at all, claimed that two of the people I brought should not
have the asson (I think he was right about that, but the
time to bring up the issue is NOT at the moment of the
ceremony), and was also operating from that mind-set
which says that taking money and then not doing what
one is paid to do is a real "coup" scored against the
person who paid! To be fair, he is certainly not the only
Houngan to have this attitude.
I took Yabofe aside and said, "Look, if you are not going to
give these folks their assons, I will! They have traveled
very far, they paid their money, you accepted them just
as I did, and you better do it. Or else tell me you won't,
and I will do it - here is how we do it in Luc Gedeon's house..."
etc. etc. etc.
When Yabofe saw that I was indeed ready, willing and able
to give the asson, he did the suleliye. But knowing that
I was ready to give the asson made me more confident,
and in the January 2000 Kanzo I did indeed perform the
suleliye, call Papa Loko to my head, and make two asogwe
Houngans. Likewise in July 2000, and in January 2001.
After I took my second asson, I noticed that I was "recharged"
in a sense, my clientele expanded and I was just
zinging with energy! It was great, it was like renewing wedding
vows or something, I loved it.
> If you get an asson from
>a lying, drunken wife-beater who fakes his possessions when it suits his
>purposes, then there is NO way of being sure that you got a real asson
I repeat that we get our assons from the lwa, not from people.
Fortunately I am experienced enough to discern a faked
possession, and cognizant enough of the consequences that
I insist on correct and authentic ceremonies for my
initiates! And again, I reap the rewards. :-)
>I note that your second asson doesn't seem to have helped you in your
>efforts to invoke the great lwa "Ignora." :)
Well, gee, Kevin, I thought I would give you a chance,
it's part of the compassion I feel for you, but if you would
like to be ignored...
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
>
> In article <3AF68476...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com>, Kevin Filan
> <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
> >In the August 1999 Kanzo, there were six paying initiates in the djevo.
> >You had already told Danise you were planning on bringing more paying
> >initiates. If Loko doesn't show up and hand out those assons, those
> >paying initiates are going to feel like they've been cheated. >>
>
> With reason! And that is exactly why there was no question
> of bogus possessions - if anyone tried that crap with my
> initiates, then they wouldn't be working with me anymore.
And, indeed, Yabofe is no longer working with you. I believe you have
accused him of stealing money from his initiatory children, among other
things. Is this standard behavior for an initiatory father... or, more
to the point, would Papa Loko tolerate this kind of behavior from a
Houngan? You've said that Danise fakes possessions on occasion. You've
also provided us with some helpful guidelines which will help us to spot
a faked possession... and you have stated adamantly that Papa Loko will
not show up at an improperly done kanzo.
Does Papa Loko tolerate this kind of nonsense from his Houngans and
Mambos? I would think that Papa Loko would consider this *far* more
blasphemous than some guy wearing a nightdress in the djevo, but, as you
are fond of pointing out, I am of course not an initiate in Vodou.
> You see, Kevin, the kanzo is a framework which provides the
> necessary setting to insure that the lwa do indeed come.
I suppose the folks at "Mambo RuPaul's Hounfour O'Style" would say that
*their* kanzo was authentic because the lwa came. But you're adamant
that in their case Loko did *not* make an appearance... or that the
person who claimed he was ridden by Loko was faking it.
> > They
> >might even demand their initation fees back. They most certainly
> >wouldn't recommend that their friends or acquaintances come down to
> >Jacmel and make Kanzo at Houngan Danise David's lakou. By making four
> >blans Asogwe at $2,500 a pop, Danise could gross $10,000
>
> Just as a point of information, the August 1999 Kanzo group
> paid considerably less than the sum you have mentioned.
>
> Kevin, Houngans and Mambos earn money by performing
> kanzos, there is nothing new about that, it is always true,
> even in all-Haitian houses.
I'm not denying that Houngans and Mambos earn money by performing
kanzos, nor am I condemning them for doing so. I'm merely drawing
logical conclusions based on your own words. You have said that Yabofe
Bon Houngan is an unethical and greedy man who sometimes fakes
possessions. You have also said that he considers it a "coup" to take
money from people and not give them what they asked for. Given this,
you certainly can't blame me for being suspicious of any "possessions"
on Yabofe Bon Houngan's part... and of being suspicious of any "asson"
which was given out when "Papa Loko" rode him. (It wouldn't be the
first time a Haitian Houngan took money from foreign initiates and
performed bogus or incomplete "initiation" ceremonies ... you have said
this yourself!)
> In my house things are a little different - Haitian initiates
> *whom I invite* have to provide their white clothes, but that is it.
> The fees paid by non-Haitians help to cover their expenses,
> which are considerable, and the rest goes to feed members
> and pay medical bills and furnish the peristyle and so
> on. You seem to think that people are getting filthy
> rich, but it isn't so, at least in my case.
Quite the contrary: I'm well aware that times are hard in Haiti and that
most Houngans and Mambos are scraping to make ends meet. I'm well aware
of exactly how much money $10,000 is to a Houngan living in rural Haiti
... and well aware of exactly how many mouths Papa Danise was
responsible for feeding.
> >I'm interested in hearing more about "retaking the asson" or "gaining a
> >second asson." Maya Deren and Karen McCarthy Brown never mentioned this
> >ceremony, and I've never heard of it anywhere else either.
>
> There are actually two Houngans in Jacmel alone who have
> two assons, it's not unheard of. The majority of us don't do
> this but it's common enough. Reasons include dissatisfaction
> with the first initiator, but also a desire to renew committment,
> the death of the first initiator and the desire to remain
> affiliated with a house, all sorts of things.
I will have to check with the folks at Marche Laurent in East Flatbush
about this: it could be that this ceremony is more prevalent in Jacmel
and its surroundings than in i.e. Port-au-Prince or Cap Haitien. I am
aware that just because I have never heard of a ceremony does not mean
that it does not exist, and will be sure to get back with you regarding
anything I discover.
> >And could you tell us some of the benefits which
> >have accrued to you as a result of your "retaking this asson?"
>
> First and most importantly a real "spiritual charge"! My
> second kanzo, with Yabofe, was a fantastically positive
> experience for me, because I came to it positively. Again,
> it's not the Houngan who gives the asson, it's the lwa.
Assuming, that is, that the Houngan in question is validly possesed by
the lwa.
> In fact, it was a real boost to my self confidence when
> the suleliye took place (that is the ceremony in which the
> asson is given to asogwe initaites). Yabofe tried to trick
> the initiates out of their assons, didn't want to do the service
> at all, claimed that two of the people I brought should not
> have the asson (I think he was right about that, but the
> time to bring up the issue is NOT at the moment of the
> ceremony),
I've heard different versions of this incident, but since I was not
there I will not comment.
> and was also operating from that mind-set
> which says that taking money and then not doing what
> one is paid to do is a real "coup" scored against the
> person who paid!
So it would be easy enough for him to fake the Loko possession, then
laugh with his friends later about how he "got over" on those stupid
blans who paid cash money to go in his djevo. Once again, based on what
you have told us repeatedly and at length about Yabofe Bon Houngan,
there is every reason to suppose he did *not* give you a valid asson.
> > If you get an asson from
> >a lying, drunken wife-beater who fakes his possessions when it suits his
> >purposes, then there is NO way of being sure that you got a real asson
>
> I repeat that we get our assons from the lwa, not from people.
> Fortunately I am experienced enough to discern a faked
> possession, and cognizant enough of the consequences that
> I insist on correct and authentic ceremonies for my
> initiates! And again, I reap the rewards. :-)
If we trust you, that is all well and good. But, again, you have every
incentive to lie in this case. You are selling a service (initiations
into Haitian Vodou) which requires that you have a valid asson. And
surely I cannot be the only one who has noticed that your yardstick for
determining the truth or falsehood of a lwa possession appears to be
"Is it convenient for me to accept this as real?"
Peace
Kevin Filan
Racine125
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>And, indeed, Yabofe is no longer working with you. I believe you have
>accused him of stealing money from his initiatory children, among other
>things.
You should rather say that I am no longer working with Yabofe.
In the July 2000 Kanzo three candidates reported that their
money was stolen. That was the last straw, I am not taking
people somewhere they won't be safe. That is why I
cancelled the August 2000 Kanzo. At that point Yabofe,
finding that the consequences of his action were coming
down on him, offered to rent me his peristyle! LOL!
Of course I wasn't interested, I declined, and very shortly
found myself blessed with my own peristyle. I never
asked anyone to build it either, it was offered to me.
> Is this standard behavior for an initiatory father... or, more
>to the point, would Papa Loko tolerate this kind of behavior from a
>Houngan?
Papa Loko supervises *ceremonial order* during a kanzo, not
the initiates' suitcases.
Actually, this happened to another group of foreigners at
another house in Jacmel too, a few years ago. The thief
was not the Houngan in charge, however, and that Houngan,
to his everlasting credit, gave the initiates the amount of
money which was stolen, to make good on the theft
because it happened in his house.
>Does Papa Loko tolerate this kind of nonsense from his Houngans and
>Mambos? I would think that Papa Loko would consider this *far* more
>blasphemous than some guy wearing a nightdress in the djevo, but, as you
>are fond of pointing out, I am of course not an initiate in Vodou.
That's right, Kevin, you are not. The kanzo was correct, because
I made sure of it. What happened outside of ceremonial activity
was something else again.
>you certainly can't blame me for being suspicious of any "possessions"
>on Yabofe Bon Houngan's part... and of being suspicious of any "asson"
>which was given out when "Papa Loko" rode him. (It wouldn't be the
>first time a Haitian Houngan took money from foreign initiates and
>performed bogus or incomplete "initiation" ceremonies ... you have said
>this yourself!)
That's right, that is why I make sure my candidates get the
real thing.
>Quite the contrary: I'm well aware that times are hard in Haiti and that
>most Houngans and Mambos are scraping to make ends meet. I'm well aware
>of exactly how much money $10,000 is to a Houngan living in rural Haiti
>... and well aware of exactly how many mouths Papa Danise was
>responsible for feeding.
Where do you get this figure of $10,000? Neither Danise nor I ever
made anything near that amount. You seem to think that
initiates pay, and the money goes straight into our bank
accounts! LOL! A kanzo is expensive, Kevin, we have to
buy tons of stuff and pay drummers for almost a dozen dances
and pay the maman hunyo and feed the initiates and pay
for a vehicle to bring them to and from the airport... you
should see my shopping list for a kanzo, it's frightening.
>So it would be easy enough for him to fake the Loko possession, then
>laugh with his friends later about how he "got over" on those stupid
>blans who paid cash money to go in his djevo.
No it would NOT be easy, because I was there and I
would not put up with that - if he tried to fake possession
by Loko I would have stepped in and called Loko to
my own head instead.
Kevin, the suleliye ceremony is the highest ceremony
of Vodou initiation, and only people who are asogwe
may attend. Not hounsis, not Houngans sur point,
not Mambos sur point, only people who are asogwe.
It amazes me that you, who are not even an initiate,
can have so much to say on this topic.
>If we trust you, that is all well and good. But, again, you have every
>incentive to lie in this case
Perhaps YOU, in a similar situation, would lie. I do not
lie, and I find your assertion offensive. My initiates
always receive correct and complete ceremonies.
Thankfully, since I had already had ceremonies at
the house of Houngan Luc Gedeon, I was able to
evaluate the ceremony performed by Danise David.
And in fact, I have no incentive to lie whatsoever - incorrect
and inauthentic ceremonies are not going to bring me
more initiate children, nor the favor of Guinea. Since
I have been enormously blessed, even if I were the
sort of person who lies, which I am NOT, there would be
no advantage in it for me at all.
> your yardstick for
>determining the truth or falsehood of a lwa possession appears to be
>"Is it convenient for me to accept this as real?"
No, my yardstick for determining the truth or falsehood of a
lwa possession is the Vodou tradition, within which I now have
eleven years of experience as a Mambo asogwe.
I am tired of repeating myself, frankly, Kevin. You had a
lave tet ceremony at Danise's house, which Danise and I,
and Houngan Edgar, performed for you. You found it
beneficial, so beneficial in fact that you said we "saved your
life"! If a mere lave tet was so beneficial (and of course
it is), then a kanzo is much more beneficial still!
But if you want to listen to people who tell you that you
can have a kanzo outside the USA which does not
fulfill the requirements of a kanzo, that it's okay to have
sex as soon as you come out of the djevo instead of
observing the required forty-one days of abstinence,
that it's okay to kouche in the ceremonial clothing of the
opposite sex, that is your choice, and the consequences
as well are yours.
LuckyHoodoo92
>possessions when it is convenient for him to do so. How, then, can you
>be sure that you did in fact receive your asson from Papa Loko Atisou?
>I can see where Danise (or one of his assistants, acting upon his
>instructions) would have EVERY incentive to fake a Papa Loko possession
>in that situation. There are several initiates in the Djevo: you have
>already promised him that you are planning on bringing more initiates to
>his house. He knows that if Papa Loko doesn't come and he cancels the
>kanzo, you will find another Houngan ... and that
>houngan will make the
>money he would have made otherwise. He's got thousands of dollars worth
>of reasons for making sure that everyone in that djevo gets exactly what
>they want -- an asson. And you have also said that Danise David is a
>greedy, untrustworthy man. Given all that, I'm curious as to why you
>are so sure that your asson actually came from Papa Loko.
>
>Peace
>Kevin Filan
Kevin I think you have some deeply centered prejudices against Voodou. You
consistantly compare Voodou with Ocha and always imply that Ocha is far more
"advanced" so to speak. You should be aware that Ocha does have a "con artist"
reputation. The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
for Ocha. Here in the states you can be charged anywhere from 12,000 to 50,000
dollars for initiation into Ocha. A Baba that I have a close relationship with
told me that if I were to become a member of his house that he would only
charge me the basic price. I asked him about an estimate of the costs and he
told me somewhere around 600.00 dollars!!!! The point I am trying to make is
that in any religion there are charlatons and con artists. I feel you are
excessivly "harping" on Voodou negative side while ignoring the negative side
of Ocha. Please be aware of this and adjust your perceptions and replys.
LuckyH.
Racine125
luckyh...@aol.com (LuckyHoodoo92) writes:
>The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
>for Ocha. Here in the states you can be charged anywhere from 12,000 to
>50,000
>dollars for initiation into Ocha.
WOW! I knew it was more expensive, but that's a big price tag
for sure.
I also have to take issue with Kevin Filan's assertion that initiation
in the USA would be more expensive, because of the animals
for sacrifice and so on. The only animals we are required to
sacrifice during a kanzo are chickens, and a pair of doves or
white pigeons - not exactly big-ticket items.
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
>
> In article <20010508103133...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
> luckyh...@aol.com (LuckyHoodoo92) writes:
>
> >The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
> >for Ocha. Here in the states you can be charged anywhere from 12,000 to
> >50,000
> >dollars for initiation into Ocha.
>
> WOW! I knew it was more expensive, but that's a big price tag
> for sure.
I'll check around, but those sound higher than the prices I've heard for
initiations in New York.
> I also have to take issue with Kevin Filan's assertion that initiation
> in the USA would be more expensive, because of the animals
> for sacrifice and so on. The only animals we are required to
> sacrifice during a kanzo are chickens, and a pair of doves or
> white pigeons - not exactly big-ticket items.
I don't recall saying that the main expense would be animals; if I did,
I should have been more clear. The main expense, near as I can tell,
would be *labor.* I'd guesstimate you'd need at least a dozen Hounsis
and several Houngans or Mambos. (Just off the top of my head, I can
remember eight or nine Houngans and Mambos assisting with Bat Guerre at
the August 1999 kanzo... and that doesn't even get into the people
needed to assist in the djevo itself). Some of the herbs required would
also likely be more expensive in the States than in Haiti (assuming they
didn't already grow wild here: southern Florida's climate is not
incredibly different than Haiti's). You would also, of course, need
enough space to set up your own djevo, and you would have to make sure
you didn't have trouble with local law enforcement over animal
sacrifices. (Yes, I know about the Supreme Court ruling; no, I'm not
naive enough to figure that Sherrif Buford T. Redneck of Middle Nowhere
is going to be particularly impressed with that ruling).
Eoghan Ballard
realestate for sale 5 miles east of Miami.
Eoghan
Kevin Filan
>
>Kevin I think you have some deeply centered prejudices against Voodou.
I have never stated that I personally believe Vodou is "about power, not
morality." Nor do I believe the accusations which have been raised by Racine
against Yabofe Bon Houngan Danise David. My comments are aimed at Vodou *as it
is presented here and elsewhere by Racine.* Suffice it to say my own spiritual
practices incorporate a good deal of Vodou, and my feelings and opinions differ
from Racine's in a number of areas.
> The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
>for Ocha.
Should we be talking about price or about value? What do you get for your money
-- and what responsibilities accrue upon taking a particular initiation? What
does this initiation mean in the context of the religion and the culture? What
does this initiation mean to you? What do you hope to accomplish from this
initiation? What are you willing to give to be initiated? Why is it important
for you to be initiated in a foreign land, in a foreign tradition? What is your
initiator's reputation in the community; what do his former and current students
have to say about his knowledge and his ethics? I think all these questions
should be answered before you get into comparisons of price.
> Here in the states you can be charged anywhere from 12,000 to 50,000
>dollars for initiation into Ocha.
As I said in another post, those prices are higher than the ones I have heard
for initiation into Ocha. The starting figures I've heard have been closer to
$3,500, with certain orisha being more expensive to make.
> A Baba that I have a close relationship with
>told me that if I were to become a member of his house that he would only
>charge me the basic price. I asked him about an estimate of the costs and he
>told me somewhere around 600.00 dollars!!!!
$600.00 to make the saint is an eminently fair price, given the complexity of
the ceremony and the amount of work and material involved. Or were you talking
about another ceremony or ceremonies (i.e. receiving the elekes and warriors?)
Again, it comes down to a question of price and value. If you're getting
plastic surgery, you're likely more concerned with finding the best plastic
surgeon, not necessarily the cheapest. An initiation is a much bigger deal than
a nose job. If you respect and trust this Baba, and you really feel you could
gain something from an initiation at his hands, then you should scrape up the
$600 and go for it. If you don't, then it wouldn't matter if you were getting
made at one-hundredth the usual price -- you'd still just be throwing your money
away.
> The point I am trying to make is
>that in any religion there are charlatons and con artists.
There are unquestionably con artists in every branch of the African Diaspora
traditions. This is one reason why it's also important to consider the
reputation of your prospective initiator, and to have a good idea of reasonable
and unreasonable demands which can be placed upon a prospective initiate. The
relationship between a godparent and an initiate demands a great deal of
trust... and, alas, there are always people out there ready to abuse that trust.
> I feel you are
>excessivly "harping" on Voodou negative side while ignoring the negative side
>of Ocha. Please be aware of this and adjust your perceptions and replys.
As I said: you may want to look to the source. I'm commenting on Vodou as it is
presented here, not Vodou as I have experienced it.
>LuckyH.
Kevin Filan
You should be aware that Ocha does have a "con artist"
>reputation.
And you should be aware that Racine tried to rip me off for $357, and succeeded
in ripping off one of the August 1999 party members for around $1,000. (She
"borrowed" money to get her car fixed, then never repaid it). You should also
be aware that Danise David accused her of stealing money from him, and that
several members of the ill-fated July 2000 kanzo believe that it was Racine who
stole their money, not Danise or anyone connected to him.
If you would like, contact me privately and I can get you in contact with
witnesses who will verify what I am saying.
Olukaw
>In article <20010508103133...@ng-md1.aol.com>, LuckyHoodoo92 says...
>>
>Should we be talking about price or about value? What do you get for your money
>-- and what responsibilities accrue upon taking a particular initiation? What
>does this initiation mean in the context of the religion and the culture? What
>does this initiation mean to you? What do you hope to accomplish from this
>initiation? What are you willing to give to be initiated? Why is it important
>for you to be initiated in a foreign land, in a foreign tradition? What is your
>initiator's reputation in the community; what do his former and current students
>have to say about his knowledge and his ethics? I think all these questions
>should be answered before you get into comparisons of price.
It is admirable to see these points brought up. Mr Filan is Absolutely
correct .
To begin with most people are not interested in values but "power"
that's their first mistake.
It certainly IS NOT necessary to be initiated in a foreign land with
foreign traditions but many will prefer that cryptic imagery since
some initiators emphasize the "power" that these places have.
When it comes to "what are you willing to give to be initiated" many
want all they possibly can get but are not willing to give anything
in return. If they do, it is an american practice to try to get back
what you got because you are dissapointed by a number of things never
realizing that you merit the consequences of your actions.
Unfortunately we live in a country that demands getting as much as you
can in as little time that you can or by the manipulation of the
sources available. People are just not interested in being students or
apprentices.
It is too easy to "buy" a minister's title through the mail, why
should they be under tutelage of someone for years to get the same
result.
Many are envious of a legitimate priest being capable of charging a
debt for their efforts and think that by pretending or giving titles
they can exploit the postulant interested of any sum they ask no
better than gypsies' "scam" techniques that have been so popular in
the past.
Unfortunately, according to an individual's ashe in Osha tradition
what they charge is based on their accomplishments not their position.
The respect for this religion falls sadly to the wayside in the wake
of people that read "Bascom" and heard that the greater power is with
that of a Babalawo and that a babalawo is the high priest. So
consequently everybody wants to be a high priest. In America women
resent that they do not have the same status in these mystery
religions and they envy a position they cannot achieve thus
demoralizing that tradition to get their ways or all together
destroying its validity if they can't change the tradition to meet
their vain curiosity.
At one time to become a babalawo you had to make osha and be with it
for some time. Possibly developing, through readings and initiations
till you were awarded the position of "ori-ate" then eventually a man
could be entered into the mysteries of being a babalawo.
Today Many babalawo are either consumed by their lust or greed and
initiate men as babalawo who haven't got the slightest clue of the
meaning nor theological structure of what being a babalwo really is
let alone any experience in Osha whatsoever.
Certainly this brings a great debate and many details that totally are
glossed over by many people in this and other groups.
From the Osha point of view being scratched as a palero is demeaning
and has no credit nor overpower to initiation into Osha. In fact when
an individual is initiated osha (karisosha) he/she cannot be
scratched. A chalk mark may be used in special cases to accomplish the
same thing when it is absolutely imperative, by will of the god for
someone to receive a cauldron. But palo remains subservient to the
greater Osha tradition which requires far more effort than getting
"scratched"
Unfortunately envy inspires the charlatan to degrade other's
reputation to cover up their own misdeeds and inadequecies. These
frauds go out of their way to discredit those that really have any
value or valid noteriety inventing numerous calumnities that the
ignorant tend to readily believe.
This brief by no means is intended to cover the vast subject Mr. Filan
honestly exposes. But it is certainly an aknowledgement that Mr. Filan
is in the right direction in his query
>
Racine125
let me just address one thing. Scroll down a bit if you
want to skip over this.
*************************************
In article <A95K6.7248$vg1.5...@www.newsranger.com>, Kevin
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I have never stated that I personally believe Vodou is "about power, not
>morality." Nor do I believe the accusations which have been raised by Racine
>against Yabofe Bon Houngan Danise David.
Who cares what you believe?
Kevin, when you were in Haiti you tattled incessantly on the initiation
candidates, you said they were way out of line to complain that
$12 a day was too much for food, and Aboudja was a jerk, and this
and that and the other. You went on and on about how you had
been damaged by Satanism, and how I and Yabofe "saved your life"
by doing your lave tet.
Now Aboudja is your buddy, and you claim that I didn't do
your lave tet, even though I videotaped it and sent you a
copy free of charge, and Satanism is okay, and on and on...
You have this habit of talking out of both sides of your mouth,
saying whatever you think will gain you favor in your
pathetic search for recognition and friendship. In this forum,
never do you address the *ISSUE* under discussion, instead
you use the discussion to frame *your* issue, which is your
obsession with me.
> Suffice it to say my own
>spiritual
>practices incorporate a good deal of Vodou, and my feelings and opinions
>differ
>from Racine's in a number of areas.
Who cares what your "feelings and opinions" are this week? You
are dishonest first of all, and secondly are not initiated and
therefore are talking about things you don't know. I do not
have "feelings and opinions", I have conaissance, the knowledge
of the Vodou tradition, which I have gained over a decade
of faithful service to that tradition.
*****************************
>> The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
>>for Ocha.
>
>Should we be talking about price or about value?
I don't mean to slam Orisha initiations in the USA, and I have
been told that the reason things are so expensive is because
of the number of people required, each of whom expects to
be paid. Also, if I am not misinformed, in Orisha service
individuals are initiated alone, while in Vodou we initiate people
in groups.
When I do an initiation in Haiti, I call on assisting clergy
and I pay them, and I expect that they will share the money
with the hounsis and the Houngans and Mambos sur point
who come with them. Yabofe didn't do this, and this was
a part of the underlying problem in that lakou - he beats his
people sometimes, but pays them almost never.
As my house grows and I have more and more Haitian
initiates, my need for assisting clergy from outside my own
house will diminish. This doesn't mean I won't call on them,
however, I still expect to benefit from their experience.
And it won't reduce my expenses, because unlike Yabofe
I intend to share the benefits with my society members
who help out in the kanzo, Haitian and otherwise.
In fact, I have at least one past initiate who is coming to
the July 2001 Kanzo to assist and to learn. Non-initiating
guests are required to pay observer fees, but in his case
since he will be working, and probably bringing another
person to kanzo, he won't pay those fees, although he
will make a smaller, voluntary contribution to the house
finances.
In my house I do not require initiates to pay monthly dues,
nothing like that, but if a member gets sick and I can't
meet the expenses of caring for them, I will ask for
contributions. When we were furnishing the Roots Without
End Peristyle, some initiates made contributions to help
pay for drums, furniture, things like that.
If an initiate in the Vodou wants to rekouche, to repeat their
ceremonies in the same house at the same grade, all they
pay is their expenses, they don't pay for their grade again.
Some Houngans and Mambos won't tell you this, but
it's true. And I have one asogwe initiate who plans to do
just exactly that, so that he can accompany into the djevo
one of my sur point initiates who will be taking the
asson in the future.
It's a funny thing - the passage through the djevo is an
intense effort, spiritually and physically. Initiates really
have to grit their teeth sometimes. But when we get out,
the first thing we want to do is get right back in there!
When I did the last kanzo, after the initiates were secluded
I stayed right there with them, and slept in the djevo with them.
I was dressed in white, of course. The next morning Houngan
Salbadja popped in, and when I came out of the djevo to
wash my face he teased me - "Oh, I know why you are sleeping
in the djevo all dressed in white, you are trying to disguise
yourself as a kanzo baby so you can get some of the sacred
food!" LOL!
OmiJuba
Don't forget that aside from the physical materials required that EVERYONE
who participates in your ocha must get paid as well, which is usually a VERY
significant amount and can easily equal if not exceed the cost of materials,
depending on who, where and what they are doing, some people are known for
the expertise in cooking, sewing, building, drumming, ect..and this talent
will cost you, as well as the notoriety and popularity of those officiating
the ceremonies.
-ÓmėJubā
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes whole lot of
falsehoods that have nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
However, just for the record I am going to respond. Kevin lied:
>And you should be aware that Racine tried to rip me off for $357, and
>succeeded
>in ripping off one of the August 1999 party members for around $1,000. (She
>"borrowed" money to get her car fixed, then never repaid it). You should
>also
>be aware that Danise David accused her of stealing money from him, and that
>several members of the ill-fated July 2000 kanzo believe that it was Racine
>who
>stole their money, not Danise or anyone connected to him.
You are SUCH a liar.
1) $51 for a leaf bath is not exhorbitant. YOU asked ME
what I thought you should do following your lave tet.
I recommended a series of baths, seven of them, which
I recommended you take one at a time, at your own pace.
I also told you that I would come to New York City to help
you with the first one, at no extra charge. These are
legitmate services, and do not constitute a "rip off".
2) A member of the July 1999 Kanzo, a babalawo in fact,
was talking with me on the phone when I complained about
my car being broken down. To my surprise, my initiatory
son then sent me a gift of three hundred dollars to fix it.
I appreciated his generosity enormously, but he insisted
that he was well off, and happy to do something for me
in return. It's not every day someone gives me $300, and
I am grateful to him.
3) Naturally Danise David, having arranged the theft of
the initiates' money, tried to cover his tracks. The
person I most suspected was with me all day and all
evening, I didn't know who could have done it because
all the initiates were together for the whole day as well.
But that evening one of Danise's people made a point
of telling me, over and over, that he was at the initiates'
house in their absence, to "provide security". When
the initiates discovered the theft of their money, I
think it totaled just over $200, this man then accused
the intiates, saying that one of them must have stolen
it from the others! That was when I put two and two
together and started asking around. Some time
later this man was observed changing American
currency, which he was certainly unlikely to have
acquired any other way. I was able to discover that
he got into the house because Danise, who was the
only other person to have a key, let him in!
That was when I cancelled the August 2000 Kanzo.
I am not taking my initiates anywhere that they are
not going to be safe. In the January 2001 Kanzo
the initiates were housed at the Rendez-Vous
Guest House, and lo and behold, no one lost so
much as a pin.
Kevin, lies are punished, did you know that? These sick,
disgusting fabrications you keep coming up with are
not going to help you in your spiritual development, nor
are they going to hinder me in my activities.
Racine125
<omi...@home.com> writes:
>-ÓmìJubà
Ah HAH! That's what I thought. And aren't people
usually made one by one, as opposed to how we do
it in Vodou, initiating people in groups?
Kevin Filan
>
>I'd like to talk a bit more about this topic, but before I do,
>let me just address one thing. Scroll down a bit if you
>want to skip over this.
Obviously you cared enough to comment.
May your career in Vodou be as successful, and bring you as much happiness, as
your relationship with Emile.
Peace
Kevin Filan
(Oh, next time you're in Jacmel, do say hello to Emile and his wife, won't you?)
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>May your career in Vodou be as successful, and bring you as much happiness,
>as
>your relationship with Emile.
>
>Peace
>Kevin Filan
>
>(Oh, next time you're in Jacmel, do say hello to Emile and his wife, won't
>you?)
Once again these are the kind of sick, snotty comments
that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Houngan Emile
is not married and has never been. He is no longer my domestic
partner, he hasn't been for quite some time. Is that little
dig supposed to wound me, cause me emotional pain?
It doesn't, it just makes me lose respect.
Kathy Latzoni
>
> Houngan Emile
>is not married and has never been. He is no longer my domestic
>partner, he hasn't been for quite some time. Is that little
>dig supposed to wound me, cause me emotional pain?
>It doesn't, it just makes me lose respect.
>
But how is Yves? Is he planning to write to us again soon?
Love,
Kathy L.
Racine125
Latzoni<lat...@my-deja.com> writes:
>But how is Yves? Is he planning to write to us again soon?
Houngan Yves went to the Dominican Republic about
a month after the kanzo, came back with a new
used pickup truck ( :-) ) and then went back to the
DR. We haven't heard from him in the past
few weeks so we assume he is working hard. In his
absence I am handling his clients for him, and his
initiatory brother Houngan Fritzner will be papa kanzo
in our July initiation ceremonies.
Houngan Fritzner, by the way, appears on two web
pages -
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/gede2000.html -
Fet Gede Spiritual Procession.
Here Houngan Fritzner can be seen teaching Houngan
Lance Love to dance the Gede's signature dance, the
banda.
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/petro01.html -
Petro Dance.
The first dance held in Roots Without End ceremonial
space, a little tonelle we built before we built the
peristyle. On this page Houngan Fritzner is pictured
dancing Petro while possessed by the lwa Simbi
Makaya.
Hawk Shango
You mention that those initated in Vodou in the States are not recognized as
such in Haiti. I am wondering if the reverse is true or not. Those initated
in Haiti are recognized in the States?
Reading your web pages and information about Vodou is really an eye opener
and I am beginning to feel the pull toward the religion even tho I am
already an ilyaorisha and palero... LOL
But first there's much to learn about my own 2 religions and I fear I would
only learn the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
Hawk Shango.
"Racine125" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010509163231...@nso-cb.aol.com...
> In article <J5hK6.53167$2U.22...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "OmiJuba"
> <omi...@home.com> writes:
>
> >Don't forget that aside from the physical materials required that
EVERYONE
> >who participates in your ocha must get paid as well, which is usually a
VERY
> >significant amount and can easily equal if not exceed the cost of
materials,
> >depending on who, where and what they are doing, some people are known
for
> >the expertise in cooking, sewing, building, drumming, ect..and this
talent
> >will cost you, as well as the notoriety and popularity of those
officiating
> >the ceremonies.
> >
> >-ÓmėJubā
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
>
> In article <RIhK6.8259$vg1.6...@www.newsranger.com>, Kevin
> Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
> >May your career in Vodou be as successful, and bring you as much happiness,
> >as
> >your relationship with Emile.
> >
> >Peace
> >Kevin Filan
> >
> >(Oh, next time you're in Jacmel, do say hello to Emile and his wife, won't
> >you?)
>
> Once again these are the kind of sick, snotty comments
> that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Houngan Emile
> is not married and has never been. He is no longer my domestic
> partner, he hasn't been for quite some time. Is that little
> dig supposed to wound me, cause me emotional pain?
If the shoe fits....
I just find it rather amusing that all during the August 1999 Kanzo you
ranted on at length about how deeply Emile was in love with you and how
he had stayed faithful to you during the time you two were apart. And
all that time it appears he was laying in another woman's arms and
laughing at the crazy Blan who thinks she's a Mambo.
Pity he didn't have the stamina of your Jamaican boyfriend. If he could
have tolerated you a bit longer he might even have gotten a US visa out
of the deal.
Racine125
Shango" <Hawk...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Mambo Racine...
>You mention that those initated in Vodou in the States are not recognized as
>such in Haiti. I am wondering if the reverse is true or not. Those initated
>in Haiti are recognized in the States?
Let me be clear that I am talking about initiation into Haitian
Vodou, not New Orleans Voodoo of the sort practiced in
New Orleans. Those initiated in Haiti are certainly
recognized in the States.
>Reading your web pages and information about Vodou is really an eye opener
>and I am beginning to feel the pull toward the religion even tho I am
>already an ilyaorisha and palero... LOL
Don't laugh! :-) I already have several initiates who are made either in
Lukumi or Palo or both, and I am getting ready to make a few more.
Racine125
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I just find it rather amusing that all during the August 1999 Kanzo you
>ranted on at length about how deeply Emile was in love with you
etc.
LOL!
Apparently for Kevin the fact that a couple can get together
and later break up is earth-shaking news. I don't think many
people tolerate infidelity, Kevin, I certainly don't, and I
don't think Houngan Emile is the first man to cheat. I left
his house and that is that, I am very happy that I did so and
I have moved on. He remains my initiatory son, I gave him
his asson, and that is something which can never change.
What this has to do with "Initiation Costs" is beyond me.
I leave Kevin's post to indicate the mental level and moral
character of the author. I also suggest that a short tour
of the archives of various newsgroups will reveal a considerable
number of scandals in Kevin's past, things much worse than
having a partner who cheated on him! LOL! However, these
scandals also have nothing to do with "Initiation Costs".
:-)
Kathy Latzoni
I don't think many
>people tolerate infidelity, Kevin, I certainly don't, and I
>don't think Houngan Emile is the first man to cheat. I left
>his house and that is that, I am very happy that I did so and
>I have moved on.
That's right, especially now that you have Yves...
You two are so cute together! :) I think some of the posts you made about him
are adorable, like:
#####
From: Racine125 (raci...@aol.com)
Subject: Why Conduct Initiations? Spiritual Motivations
Newsgroups: alt.religion.orisha
Date: 2000/12/08
..Soon I will return to Haiti, where Houngan Yves eagerly
awaits a new group of initiation candidates. When I spoke
to him on the phone yesterday and heard him say how much
he missed me and how much he is looking forward to seeing
me again, so that we can play together and laugh together
and tell jokes and run ceremonies and even initiate new people
into the heart of the Vodou, I had the sensation of his physical
presence, even though he was over a thousand miles away. This
bond, created by the Vodou, transcends distance and time and
race and nationality! What greater proof can there be of the
reality of spiritual energy, of the tangibility of love?
I mean, didn't you ever eat a yummy desert, and it was so good that
you turned to the person beside you and said, "Wow! Taste some
of this!"? That's what it's like, friends - I've got something so good
here that I am just dying to share it! :-)
#####
We're looking forward to hearing more from your loved one when he returns from
the DR...
Note that you mentioned you're staying at your father's house while you're in
the States. So I guess you don't have an apartment in Roxbury this time??? [It
turns out that a friend of mine used to live quite close to your old street
address... are there still a bunch of good little Ital restaurants in the
neighborhood?]
I do hope that your father, and everyone else in your family, is well. Are you,
perhaps, another casualty of the skyrocketing Boston rental market? [Being in
NYC myself, I can sympathize...]
If you're now living in your parents' basement, then you may have more in common
with many of the alt.satanism regulars than you thought. ;)
Love,
Kathy L.
Kevin Filan
>
>It is admirable to see these points brought up. Mr Filan is Absolutely
>correct .
Thanks for the kind words. I feel like this current series of arguments has
generated a fair amount of light as well as heat.
>To begin with most people are not interested in values but "power"
>that's their first mistake.
Actually I was using the term in the economic sense. I think looking for the
cheapest possible initiation is probably a mistake... because they are *not* all
the same. $20,000 spent on a life-changing ceremony which ties you to a solid
house that does things right is an investment: $500 spent on a McAsson at Ronald
McHoungan's Bed, Breakfast and Djevo is wasted money.
>It certainly IS NOT necessary to be initiated in a foreign land with
>foreign traditions but many will prefer that cryptic imagery since
>some initiators emphasize the "power" that these places have.
It becomes a question of "how big is my wand?" The current fascination many of
the Newage crowd have with "ayahuasca ceremonies in Peru" is one example.
There's no reason why you couldn't take ayahuasca in the U.S. or Canada and have
a perfectly good ayahuasca experience. But these jokers feel it's necessary to
fly to some foreign land and take ayahuasca in an "authentic" ceremony. The
fact that said "authentic ceremony" includes all kinds of tourist amenities --
never mind the fact that this ceremony means something ENTIRELY different to
Crystal Breakswind and her hubby than it does to a Peruvian shaman -- is
ignored.
>When it comes to "what are you willing to give to be initiated" many
>want all they possibly can get but are not willing to give anything
>in return. If they do, it is an american practice to try to get back
>what you got because you are dissapointed by a number of things never
>realizing that you merit the consequences of your actions.
I think there's a delicate balance at work here. On one hand it's vital that
you trust and respect the person who is initiating you. We've already
established that there are con artists and crooks out there, not to mention
people who will fake possessions for their own benefit and people who will take
your money and give you inauthentic ceremonies. Before you invest the time,
money and effort, you should make sure that you can rely on your initiatory
parents. On the other hand, if you're looking for an infallible guru you are
likely to be seriously disappointed. You've got to trust your Padrino or your
Mambo... but you've also got to be aware they are human and therefore fallible.
And then of course you get the folks who figure that getting initiated in an
African Diaspora tradition is going to make them Super Eleet Sorcerer Dudes.
Once they discover that sopera or that asson isn't going to give them the power
to destroy their enemies and score with chicks, they become embittered and feel
like they "wasted their money."
>It is too easy to "buy" a minister's title through the mail, why
>should they be under tutelage of someone for years to get the same
>result.
And that was my point: it's naive at best to think that you can spend a few
weeks in a foreign country and be capable of functioning within a tradition on
the same level as someone who grew up in that tradition and who has been working
with it all his or her life. Being a real Houngan or Babalao (an "authentic"
one, if you prefer...) involves far more than just a ceremony, despite what some
salespeople may try to tell you.
>The respect for this religion falls sadly to the wayside in the wake
>of people that read "Bascom" and heard that the greater power is with
>that of a Babalawo and that a babalawo is the high priest. So
>consequently everybody wants to be a high priest. In America women
>resent that they do not have the same status in these mystery
>religions and they envy a position they cannot achieve thus
>demoralizing that tradition to get their ways or all together
>destroying its validity if they can't change the tradition to meet
>their vain curiosity.
And here's another interesting point: I'm of the impression that most of the
followers of Palo and Ocha in Cuba, and most Vodouisants in Haiti, are in fact
*not* initiated. I find it amusing that a Haitian might spend his entire life
in the religion and never take the asson... while somebody who just read *Divine
Horsemen* and *Mama Lola* last year feels no reluctance about declaring himself
Houngan Asogwe just because he spent a couple weeks in Haiti and participated in
a few Vodou ceremonies.
>Certainly this brings a great debate and many details that totally are
>glossed over by many people in this and other groups.
>From the Osha point of view being scratched as a palero is demeaning
>and has no credit nor overpower to initiation into Osha. In fact when
>an individual is initiated osha (karisosha) he/she cannot be
>scratched. A chalk mark may be used in special cases to accomplish the
>same thing when it is absolutely imperative, by will of the god for
>someone to receive a cauldron. But palo remains subservient to the
>greater Osha tradition which requires far more effort than getting
>"scratched"
I suspect there are some here who might disagree with this paragraph. Since I'm
trying hard not to get involved in any more flame wars than the ones I'm already
participating in, I'm going to reserve comment here...
>Unfortunately envy inspires the charlatan to degrade other's
>reputation to cover up their own misdeeds and inadequecies. These
>frauds go out of their way to discredit those that really have any
>value or valid noteriety inventing numerous calumnities that the
>ignorant tend to readily believe.
One simple way to get beyond this is to talk to some of the prospective
initiator's former students. Sure, some people will drift away from their
initiatory parents for any of a variety of reasons. Sure, there's gossip in
every community. But if you're hearing a whole bunch of horror stories from a
whole bunch of former students and clients, then chances are that there's
something else going on here besides simple personality conflicts and gossip.
>This brief by no means is intended to cover the vast subject Mr. Filan
>honestly exposes. But it is certainly an aknowledgement that Mr. Filan
>is in the right direction in his query
Thanks again for the kind words.
Racine125
Yves again. I am also looking forward to seeing Houngan
Fritzner, etc. Unlike yourself, apparently, I don't
have to be in the sack with someone to feel a bond
with them.
That is what the Vodou is about, Kathy, it creates bonds
of love, it creates a family where there previously
was none. I love Yves and Fritzner and Babou and
Dodo and Onel and Mambo Ti-Kal and Mambo
Simone and so on.
The two paragraphs you quoted are from two different
posts, by the way - the "yummy dessert" quote
refers to the *spiritual benefits* of initiation, not poor
ol' Houngan Yves! LOL!
I love Boston, I miss Boston, but I love my Dad even more!
It's wonderful to be here with him, especially since he
is retired and we can pal around together. We even
teach part-time in the same school! :-) And no, I do not
live in the basement, thank you for your solicitude.
Now, Kathy, since you are picking up where your
boyfriend left off, what has ANY OF THIS to do with
"Initiation Costs"?
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
>
>Kevin I think you have some deeply centered prejudices against Voodou. You
>consistantly compare Voodou with Ocha and always imply that Ocha is far more
>"advanced" so to speak. You should be aware that Ocha does have a "con artist"
>reputation. The prices Racine quotes is far more reasonable than the prices
>for Ocha. Here in the states you can be charged anywhere from 12,000 to 50,000
>dollars for initiation into Ocha. A Baba that I have a close relationship with
>told me that if I were to become a member of his house that he would only
>charge me the basic price. I asked him about an estimate of the costs and he
>told me somewhere around 600.00 dollars!!!! The point I am trying to make is
>that in any religion there are charlatons and con artists. I feel you are
>excessivly "harping" on Voodou negative side while ignoring the negative side
>of Ocha. Please be aware of this and adjust your perceptions and replys.
>
>LuckyH.
Alafia Lucky H,
While I agree with your statement that any religion has charlatans and
con artists - I'd like to comment on your statements about ocha prices
- which we had numerous discusssions about on this board in years past
- but we have some new readers these days - so I will repeat myself.
Actually the prices for the entire ceremony of a Cariocha are fairly
standardized in the US - with regional variences due to prices of
animals, and to which Orisha is being made - initiations of warriors
are more costly than some non-warrior crowns.
I have stated here before that when I was crowned, I had a receipt for
ever item purchased, and was present for almost all of the shopping
involved in my own initiation. Compare the price of an initiation
which takes a week - and several months of prep work...to the current
costs of a wedding (one day ceremony including the reception) and you
will be surprised at how inexpensive an ocha actually is. To make
ocha for 600.00 in the US is impossible - and I have no idea who told
you this but they were sadly ignorant. There are people who have had
their ochas done free - when an ile pulls together in an emergency and
each member contributes the items needed, and pays the various fees,
but again - the cost is still there - though absorbed by others.
An Oriate/Oba (Master of Ceremonies) for the initiation gets paid far
less than a lawyer or plumber or electrician - for three days of work,
and years of training and expertise. The small derechos given to each
participant for their role in each part of the ceremony do not
usually cover carfare. I pay well over 50.00 in gas and tolls to
attend a ceremony in NYC - work for three and four days sometimes with
about 3 or 4 hours of sleep per night, and receive (gasp) 20.00. And
usually don't come home with that - since I leave that money in the
jicara for the drummers at the tambor. I make over 200.00 a day in my
job as an anthropologist. The two things do not even begin to
compare.
If you live in a US area where there are no Oriates - the costs have
to include flying or bussing that person in. If you happen to live,
or make Ocha in a major Lucumi center like Miami, or NY or San
Francisco the cost is reduced.
Costs in Cuba are less - granted - but to travel to Cuba requires
airfares, visas, schlepping materials unavailable there and certain
stresses whch I won't discuss here.
I have never heard of a valid ceremony of Cariocha which cost 50,000.
This would definately be a rip-off. Though not as much of a rip-off
(if we want to talk comparative rip-offs) as the cost of all the gold
and glitter seen in certain cathedrals of other faiths. I know few
weathy santeros. Most are working class people - with jobs. A few
Babalawos I know, and male Obas as well, do not hold down jobs - and
work full-time within the faith, and all of them have working wives
(grin) None would ever be listed in the Fortune 500. It is hard to
get rich charging 21.00 for a reading (or even 50.00), which may take
3 or four hours.
My husband plays drums at ceremonies. He drives 4 hours - pays gas
and tolls, gets paid maybe 50.00 (if he is lucky) for 4 or 5 hours of
work) and often works for free, supplies his own instruments (check
out the costs of bata drums and congas and shekeres) and studies with
master drummers - to learn ritual songs/drum patterns - and spends way
more than he makes drumming on his instruments and music collection.
*sigh*.
Call up any catering service you know of - and ask them to quote a
price for cooking for an occassion where you will be feeding anywhere
between 100 and 200 people (Dia del Medio/ Day of the Tambor) and see
what figure they charge - per person. Then add in feeding at least 20
people for 2 more days, and a number of people for a week.
Compare that to the fee charged by cooks in the religion who "feed the
multitudes" as well as doing ritual food preparation which requires
skill and training - who work long hard hours, several days standing
in small hot kitchens, do the shopping, prep work and much of the
clean-up and may get 300.00. I have spent more than that taking a few
executives out to dinner for 2 hours at a moderately priced
restaurant.
The seamstresses/tailors who make the ritual clothing make less than
you would pay for an off-the-rack outfit at a moderately priced retail
store.
I could go on - detail by detail - but I think you get my drift.
Those who have been crowned, or worked an Ocha ceremony, or even
attended one, can attest to the amount of work entailed in making an
Ocha happen, the number of willing hands needed to participate and
work hard, the amount of detail involved, and how tired we all are
after it is over - and for the godparents - it is not over - I wish my
doctor was as available as my godparents and ocha family. My doctor
would never get in his car and drive 2 hours to come see me - for
free...for the rest of my life. (well not free - two coconuts, two
white penny candles and a derecho of $2.10) (Toll for the GW Bridge is
4.00)
Again, I repeat - there are charlatans in our faiths. There are
charlatans in EVERY faith. And in all walks of life - from
incompetent plumbers, crooked contractors, shyster lawyers, bogus
doctors, crooked politicians (an oxymoron) charities which give little
to those they raise funds for etc. etc.
I have been to Babalawos for a reading and had them refuse the small
fee charged - when the odu that fell was theirs. I have seen
godparents spend hours and hours with godchildren - and take phone
calls all hours of the day and night, rush off to hospitals, jails,
court, births, birthdays, and family crises or events - and get very
little except the ache and blessings of Orisha for their work - which
is the point of the whole thing anyway. Blessings from Olodumare, and
Orisha. And this has no dollar value.
Alafia,
Denise/Omi Saide
catherine yronwode
I admire your diligence in researching web sites and your lawyerly mind,
but could you stop this shit-talk about Racine? I am not her friend.
This is not about her at all. I am just someone who is getting sick of
your nasty attitude and your gossipping tongue.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
catherine yronwode
I am always interested in the good information you bring to this
newsgroup, especially the in-depth pieces you have written about the
varieties of African Diasporic religions. I realize that you and Racine
have had conflicts in the past, and i have no problem with your
discussing what happened then -- but i would like you to stop running
your mouth about Racine's love-life. It is none of your business and you
are making a disgusting spectacle of yourself by continuing to harp on
her sexuality when your real conflicts with her have nothing to do with
sex. Or do they?
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Racine125
let it die.
Kathy Latzoni
Sure, cat, as I always admire your writing and all that you have given back to
the community, I will make an effort to have my posts be more to your liking in
the future. [I do admit to being a bit confused as to the timing of your
response <:/ , as my contributions here in the last few days have had nothing to
do with Racine...]
As I believe I mentioned to Eoghan [another highly intelligent and prolific
contributor here], you certainly are always free to killfile any threads which
you don't find useful or productive.
Hope to hear more from you soon, and I also expect to be ordering more supplies
from your catalog.
Cordially,
Kathy Latzoni
Kathy Latzoni
BTW, I still would like to find out more about Ogoun Deux Manieres. Seriously.
<:)
Yrs,
Kathy L.
catherine yronwode
>
> I do admit to being a bit confused as to the timing of your
> response <:/ , as my contributions here in the last few days have
> had nothing to do with Racine...]
I let threads build up and read them in leng runs, hence my replies may
be a bit delayed. I'm glad to hear that things are calming down.
cat yronwode
Kevin Filan
I was out of line when I posted the disparaging references to Racine's personal
life, and I apologize for that.
On the other hand, let's not pretend that Racine is some innocent who has been
above and beyond nasty personal insults. She's had no compunction about
needling me; nor has she shown any hesitation about using personal information
she gained in confidence, in her role as a Mambo, to attack me. Nor am I the
only former client of Racine who has been subjected to this kind of behavior.
She has released embarrassing personal information about the family lives of at
least two other friends of mine -- information which she received, again, in her
role as a Mambo and as a spiritual counselor.
When I've worked as a Tarot reader and astrologer, I have always felt that I
owed my clients the same level of discretion and confidentiality that any
therapist would offer his patients. If I can't offer that, then how can I give
you effective and useful advice about your future and your personal life? I've
had some pretty heavy stuff dumped in my lap during readings: secret addictions,
affairs, incest and abuse, confessions of crimes... you name it, I've seen it
come up in readings. If I didn't treat my cards like the confessional or the
psychiatrist's couch, then I could put lives and reputations in some serious
jeopardy.
It's true that some unkind things have been said to Racine. This doesn't excuse
her violations of the trust placed in her by virtue of her asson and the role
she has chosen for herself. If I have a falling-out with my therapist and
denounce her publicly on Usenet, that does *not* give her a right to come online
and tell people that I am a survivor of child sexual abuse -- or so I told her
in one of our sessions -- and that my criticism of her stems from old Oedipal
conflicts. If she were to do this, she would quickly find herself pursuing
other career opportunities minus a license and plus a sizable malpractice
judgment.
Perhaps Racine does not feel that she should be held to that standard, and that
she is entitled to use whatever means she sees fit when she is subjected to
personal attacks. If so, this is something her future clients may want to keep
in mind: if you ever have a falling out with this woman, she is likely to make
public every dark and embarrassing secret you have shared with her.
I'd be interested in hearing how others who have worked for people in the
African Diaspora or other traditions would treat issues of confidentiality.
I'll guarantee you that if you've done ANY kind of magical or occult work you've
run into situations where your discretion was required: I'm even guessing there
is an Odu or two teaching about this. :)
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I was out of line when I posted the disparaging references to Racine's
>personal
>life, and I apologize for that.
No, you don't. You wish to have the appearance of doing so,
but then you go on with more of the same, to wit:
>On the other hand, let's not pretend that Racine is some innocent who has
>been
>above and beyond nasty personal insults. She's had no compunction about
>needling me; nor has she shown any hesitation about using personal
>information
>she gained in confidence, in her role as a Mambo, to attack me.
That's bullsh*t, just like the rest of your lies.
You sit on this forum and others slandering and lying,
claiming that I stole money from you when in fact I protected
you, provided you with an escort to and from the airport,
and fed you on a miserable twelve dollars a day.
I did a correct, authentic lave tet for you together with
two Haitian Houngans for a price far below what I normally
charge. I videotaped that lave tet and sent you a copy
at no charge. Yet you are so full of lies that you claim
I never did a lave tet for you at all!
>She is likely to
>make
>public every dark and embarrassing secret you have shared with her.
More bullshit, frankly. You come on these forums, you
and your little buddies, and tell the most outrageous lies
and distortions you can think of. I respond with true
information, which may be embarrasing to you but which
YOU first alluded to.
Remember that little porno page you guys made, with
pictures of black mens' penises, and photographs from
The VODOU Page superimposed over photos of tortured
women? Remember that sick text you all wrote, characterizing
kanzo ceremonies as orgies? Remember how you all signed my
name to that, and gave my US Governmnet Post Office Box
as a contact? Did you know that when you post an image,
the registration number of every computer ever used to alter
that photograph is recorded? If I was really vindictive, the
information my lawyers gained would have some of you facing
Federal charges right now!
Remember your filthy language, your disgusting references
to my genitalia? Remember your harassment, your vulgarity,
and so on?
So far, the only true statement you have made is that I once
had a boyfriend who cheated on me. This, to you, is evidence
of my moral turpitude? You are a sick person, Kevin.
Kevin, grow up. You are wrong, you got called on it,
and the best thing you can do right now is to stop your
little smear campaign before you piss me off enough to
do something about it.
What do you think, you are going to be able to discredit me
somehow? You are laughable, man! In fact, come to think of
it, I hope you keepright on lying and slandering and slinging
false accusations, because the more you do, the more Guinea
rewards me! Do you think a peristyle just dropped from the
sky onto my head? That peristyle was given to me by a woman
who has many years of experience in Haiti, because she,
who lives in the same community with me, knows who I am
and what I am about. Haitians come to initiate in that peristyle,
because they also respect me based on their experience of
me over the past ten years!
I think what motivates your little wankers' circle is nothing but
plain old jealousy - that's why you sent that pedophilic ex-priest
to my benefactresses house with printouts of your sick lies!
And that is why he got thrown out on his butt. People are not as
stupid as you think they are, Kevin.
Go and do something constructive, fer' Crissakes! Make websites
for Haitian Vodouisants who wouldn't otherwise get exposure. Call
anti-Vodouisant journalists who write idiotically stereotypical
articles up on the carpet in a letter to the editor. Use the money
you earn from your clients, if you have any, to take care of Vodouisants
associated with you when they are ill or hungry. Do SOMETHING
to make amends for all the lies you have told about a Mambo
asogwe of the Vodou. And don't let me hear any more! Until
this moment, Kevin, I have never so much as lit a candle against
any one of your little liars' club, I have never put so much as a
straw in your path. Do you think God is a myth? Do you think
Guinea is deaf, dumb, blind, and powerless?
catherine yronwode
>
> I was out of line when I posted the disparaging references to
> Racine's personal life, and I apologize for that.
On behalf of usenet readers everywhere, thank you!
> On the other hand, let's not pretend that Racine is some innocent
> who has been above and beyond nasty personal insults.
No one pretended she is above making personal insults; i surely did not
pretend that.
>...nor has she shown any hesitation about using personal information
> she gained in confidence, in her role as a Mambo, to attack me. Nor
> am I the only former client of Racine who has been subjected to this
> kind of behavior. She has released embarrassing personal information
> about the family lives of at least two other friends of mine --
> information which she received, again, in her role as a Mambo and as
> a spiritual counselor. [...]
This is a serious charge, not frivolous and distasteful gossip like the
sexual stuff you and Kathy were posting earlier. Obviously you and
Racine disagree on some matters, but a charge such as this goes beyond
personal disagreements. It is a powerful enough charge that IF IT WERE
PROVEN IN COURT, it could terminate a professional career, and perhaps
even a religious one.
Kevin, i ask anyone in usenet who makes such a serious charge two
questions:
Are you posting under or signing posts with your legal name?
Are you willing to swear to the accusation in court, if asked?
If not, then why keep on about it?
Likewise, Racine, you are amking accusations about Kevin.
Are you willing to swear in a court of law that it was Kevin who put
together the porno page impugning you?
If not, then why keep on about it?
I realize that lawsuits cost money, but it seems as if this continual
trading of accusations will never end until the three of you (Kevin,
Kathy, and Racine) either take your grievances to court ... or let go of
them.
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily.
Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html
Send e-mail with your street address to cata...@luckymojo.com
and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets
Copyright (c) 2001 catherine yronwode. All rights reserved.
Kevin Filan
A whole bunch of ranting which doesn't address the issue raised. To wit: Racine
takes information which she is given, in confidence, in her role as a Mambo, and
uses it against people who turn against her.
This, in my opinion, is unethical, and is something which any prospective
student or initiate should consider. In the post below she does not deny doing
this (if she chooses to do so, I will be happy to provide examples of her doing
same). Nor does she attempt to justify it.
That being said, I can't resist:
>Go and do something constructive, fer' Crissakes! Make websites
>for Haitian Vodouisants who wouldn't otherwise get exposure. Call
>anti-Vodouisant journalists who write idiotically stereotypical
>articles up on the carpet in a letter to the editor. Use the money
>you earn from your clients, if you have any, to take care of Vodouisants
>associated with you when they are ill or hungry. Do SOMETHING
>to make amends for all the lies you have told about a Mambo
>asogwe of the Vodou.
Does anybody else visualize Racine as Eric Cartman in his "Cops" uniform, waving
her asson like a billyclub and shouting "You WILL respect my AUTHORITAH!!!"
> And don't let me hear any more! Until
>this moment, Kevin, I have never so much as lit a candle against
>any one of your little liars' club, I have never put so much as a
>straw in your path. Do you think God is a myth? Do you think
>Guinea is deaf, dumb, blind, and powerless?
*chortle*
I can't help it: I just gotta share the fun on this one.
She's 42 years old, she lives in her Dad's basement, and she threatens all her
online enemies with curses. Alt.satanism -- meet Mambo Racine Sans But.
Something tells me she'll fit in just fine.
Kevin Filan
>>...nor has she shown any hesitation about using personal information
>> she gained in confidence, in her role as a Mambo, to attack me. Nor
>> am I the only former client of Racine who has been subjected to this
>> kind of behavior. She has released embarrassing personal information
>> about the family lives of at least two other friends of mine --
>> information which she received, again, in her role as a Mambo and as
>> a spiritual counselor. [...]
>
>This is a serious charge, not frivolous and distasteful gossip like the
>sexual stuff you and Kathy were posting earlier. Obviously you and
>Racine disagree on some matters, but a charge such as this goes beyond
>personal disagreements. It is a powerful enough charge that IF IT WERE
>PROVEN IN COURT, it could terminate a professional career, and perhaps
>even a religious one.
Here's an excerpt from a May 9, 2001 post by Racine:
* * * * *
Kevin, when you were in Haiti you tattled incessantly on the initiation
candidates, you said they were way out of line to complain that $12 a day was
too much for food, and Aboudja was a jerk, and this and that and the other. You
went on and on about how you had been damaged by Satanism, and how I and Yabofe
"saved your life" by doing your lave tet.
Now Aboudja is your buddy, and you claim that I didn't do your lave tet, even
though I videotaped it and sent you a copy free of charge, and Satanism is okay,
and on and on...
You have this habit of talking out of both sides of your mouth, saying whatever
you think will gain you favor in your pathetic search for recognition and
friendship. In this forum, never do you address the *ISSUE* under discussion,
instead you use the discussion to frame *your* issue, which is your obsession
with me.
* * * * *
Whatever I told Racine in Haiti I told her in her capacity as a Mambo. As such,
I expected that she would keep it in confidence. And yet here she is talking
about the events which went on there, and discussing things which I told her, in
an effort to discredit me. Racine has definitely tried to play the "Satanism"
card quite a few times on this forum and elsewhere to bolster her position.
(I'm glad I followed my gut instincts and never shared any sensitive personal
information with Racine: I'm sure that if I had, everybody on Usenet would know
about it by now).
One of the other members of the August 1999 Kanzo has had some problems with his
mother: he told Racine about those problems. Racine later referred to hose
issues disparagingly when this member complained, telling everyone in our group,
"He hates me just like he hates his mother." This person had not shared these
details of his personal life with all of us. Racine knew that her statements
about this were hurtful; she made them in an effort to hurt him.
There are other incidents which come to my mind, but frankly I've not yet talked
to the people involved and don't feel comfortable discussing them in a public
forum without their permission.
I'm not saying that I've been a complete innocent here: I definitely have made
comments about things in Racine's life which were none of my business. But the
important point is that I DID NOT GET THAT INFORMATION IN MY CAPACITY AS A
SPIRITUAL ADVISOR.
>Kevin, i ask anyone in usenet who makes such a serious charge two
>questions:
> Are you posting under or signing posts with your legal name?
Yes.
> Are you willing to swear to the accusation in court, if asked?
Not just to swear, but to provide evidence and witnesses.
> If not, then why keep on about it?
Hell, why keep on about it in any event? I've said my piece, and would be happy
to provide any evidence requested in my favor. The final decision, as always,
rests with the peanut gallery.
>Likewise, Racine, you are amking accusations about Kevin.
> Are you willing to swear in a court of law that it was Kevin who put
>together the porno page impugning you?
I can tell you that I did not create any "porno page" or any other page
dedicated to Racine. I'll go one better: I never even SAW the "Racine Porno
Page." By the time I saw the post which advertised it the page had been pulled.
IIRC, the page was advertised by one of the trolls who were clogging
soc.culture.haiti at that time... and I usually put off reading troll-posts for
whenever I'm done with anything else of any possible value which might need my
attention.
Kathy Latzoni
>and your little buddies, and tell the most outrageous lies
>and distortions you can think of. I respond with true
>information, which may be embarrasing to you but which
>YOU first alluded to.
>
Racine:
Did you, or did you not, post information here in a public forum which was told
to you **in confidence** in your role as a spiritual counselor?
>Remember that little porno page you guys made, with
>pictures of black mens' penises, and photographs from
>The VODOU Page superimposed over photos of tortured
>women? Remember that sick text you all wrote, characterizing
>kanzo ceremonies as orgies? Remember how you all signed my
>name to that, and gave my US Governmnet Post Office Box
>as a contact? Did you know that when you post an image,
>the registration number of every computer ever used to alter
>that photograph is recorded? If I was really vindictive, the
>information my lawyers gained would have some of you facing
>Federal charges right now!
>
Are you, or are you not, accusing a former student of breaking the law?
Are you, or are you not, taking legal action against a former student?
>I think what motivates your little wankers' circle is nothing but
>plain old jealousy - that's why you sent that pedophilic ex-priest
>to my benefactresses house with printouts of your sick lies!
Are you, or are you not, accusing a former student of harassment?
>Until
>this moment, Kevin, I have never so much as lit a candle against
>any one of your little liars' club, I have never put so much as a
>straw in your path. Do you think God is a myth? Do you think
>Guinea is deaf, dumb, blind, and powerless?
>
Are you, or are you not, threatening to work wanga against a former student?
And my final question:
Do you think that any of the above behavior, is something which a mambo's
benefactress, or her potential future clients, should be fully informed of?
Wondering,
Kathy L.
Kathy Latzoni
>
>Kathy, what you (and the rest of the people who might or are practicing
>these "faiths") need to understand is that THIS IS PART AND PARCEL OF THESE
>SO-CALLED RELIGIONS.
>
>IF the use of that information suits someone who knows it, they WILL use
>it, including public disclosure of it. THIS WILL ESSENTIALLY ALWAYS HAPPEN
>in these so-called "religions" whenever it suits the practitioners, as the
>"priests" have ZERO ethics and those who follow these paths have ZERO
>recourse against those people when it does happen!
>
ITYM ::plonk::
Or "gaveta da matança", if you prefer. <:)
Have a good life,
Kathy L.
People's Commissar
the E. Coast was found breeding puffer fish. They also know their poisons
and unless you get a doctor of tropical medicine that thinks of looking for
specific things, you can be made VERY sick.
But then, we know, you did nothing to provoke her, uh hum.
TJ
--
Satanic Reds http://www.satanicreds.org
Unique - check it out! www.darktradition.com
Member of the Satanic Council
http://www.geocities.com/sataniccouncil/mainmenu.html
Dark Doctrines part of Satanic Reds Org.
http://www.apodion.com/vad/dark/
http://satanmuse.rules.it/
SLAVA NAM! POWER TO THE WORKING PEOPLE!
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:QutM6.3640$6j3.3...@www.newsranger.com...
E. C. Ballard
attention their little infantile minds crave.
Eoghan
Kathy Latzoni
says...
>
>Kathy, never even refer to trolls posts. They don't deserve the
>attention their little infantile minds crave.
>
>Eoghan
You are correct, sir; I just wanted to let him know that we had killfiled him.
[Well, the actual translation from the Portuguese is "drawer of slaughter" -- it
was the closest I could come up with...] :)
Your obt svt,
Kathy L.
Racine125
<satan...@my-deja.com> writes:
>And she's a Voodun? You are lucky that's all she or he does. One Boku on
>the E. Coast was found breeding puffer fish. They also know their poisons
>and unless you get a doctor of tropical medicine that thinks of looking for
>specific things, you can be made VERY sick.
>
>But then, we know, you did nothing to provoke her, uh hum.
LOL! You know, until this very moment I haven't done even
one little wanga to trip up these folks, I haven't lit even one
little candle against them. The more they wank and lie and
slander, the more Guinea blesses me. I've already got a peristyle
of my own which I never thought I would have, so leave them
alone, if they keep it up I will probably end up with twenty
acres of land and movie stars for initiates! :-)
Racine125
you.
I am not sure I agree with everything Frauds R Us said, but I would
like to point out one thing: There is NOTHING in the Vodou tradition
which prevents me from slapping a mucho mega wanga on
Kevin, for instance. He is not my initiate, he starts these smear
campaigns every time I return from Haiti for a visit to the USA.
I was once falsely accused of working wanga against my
own initiates, and I was very upset by the accusation. I
complained of it to a Houngan I knew, and do you know what
he said? He said, "Oh, so WHAT if you did? I know you
didn't, but so what if you did? You are a Mambo, doing wanga
is your profession! It's like accusing a doctor of writing
presciptions. If people were doing that stuff to me, I would
have shot a wanga under their asses a long time ago, just
*because* they accused me of it when I didn't do it."
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
(I wrote:)
>Kevin, when you were in Haiti you tattled incessantly on the initiation
>candidates, you said they were way out of line to complain that $12 a day was
>too much for food, and Aboudja was a jerk, and this and that and the other.
>You
>went on and on about how you had been damaged by Satanism, and how I and
>Yabofe
>"saved your life" by doing your lave tet.
>
>Now Aboudja is your buddy, and you claim that I didn't do your lave tet, even
>though I videotaped it and sent you a copy free of charge, and Satanism is
>okay,
>and on and on...
>
>You have this habit of talking out of both sides of your mouth, saying
>whatever
>you think will gain you favor in your pathetic search for recognition and
>friendship. In this forum, never do you address the *ISSUE* under
>discussion,
>instead you use the discussion to frame *your* issue, which is your obsession
>with me.
>
>* * * * *
>
>Whatever I told Racine in Haiti I told her in her capacity as a Mambo. As
>such,
>I expected that she would keep it in confidence.
Oh no you didn't! You are NOT my initiate. If you regarded me
as your Mambo you would never conduct the sort of smear campaign
against me that you have conducted here. You can't have
it both ways.
>(I'm glad I followed my gut instincts and never shared any sensitive personal
>information with Racine: I'm sure that if I had, everybody on Usenet would
>know
>about it by now).
LOL! From the email I am getting, "everybody on Usenet" doesn't
even need me to tell them anything.
>One of the other members of the August 1999 Kanzo has had some problems with
>his
>mother: he told Racine about those problems. Racine later referred to hose
>issues disparagingly when this member complained, telling everyone in our
>group,
>"He hates me just like he hates his mother."
Who hates his mother? You are the one who is talking on
Usenet, not me.
>I can tell you that I did not create any "porno page" or any other page
>dedicated to Racine. I'll go one better: I never even SAW the "Racine Porno
>Page."
You, who brag of your vast collection of pornography, are now
as innocent as the driven snow? Keep it up.
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>She's 42 years old, she lives in her Dad's basement, and she threatens all
>her
>online enemies with curses. Alt.satanism -- meet Mambo Racine Sans But.
>Something tells me she'll fit in just fine.
I am not 42 years old, I do not live in my father's basement,
and I have never yet worked a wanga against you.
Kevin, you are a paranoid liar.
catherine yronwode
>
> Did you, or did you not, post information here in a public forum
> which was told to you **in confidence** in your role as a spiritual
> counselor?
That's a good question.
Kevin says she did post information given to her in confidence. Racine
has not denied doing, but has responded by accusing Kevin of similar
gossiping practices. Kevin rejoined by admitting that he is a gossip,
but somehow felt his gossp was not as vile because he did not obtain
confidences while in the capacity of a spiritual advisor. Kevin
obviously holds holds spiritual advisors to a higher ehtical standard
than he himself keeps.
My advice: Both of you! Hey! Stop gossping about people's sex lives,
personal fears and doubts, economic conditions, and family issues! It's
ugly and vile. Let's stick to cases.
> >Remember that little porno page you guys made, with
> >pictures of black mens' penises, and photographs from
> >The VODOU Page superimposed over photos of tortured
> >women? Remember that sick text you all wrote, characterizing
> >kanzo ceremonies as orgies? Remember how you all signed my
> >name to that, and gave my US Governmnet Post Office Box
> >as a contact? Did you know that when you post an image,
> >the registration number of every computer ever used to alter
> >that photograph is recorded? If I was really vindictive, the
> >information my lawyers gained would have some of you facing
> >Federal charges right now!
>
> Are you, or are you not, accusing a former student of breaking the
> law?
>
> Are you, or are you not, taking legal action against a former
> student?
This is the biggie! Racine has made two SERIOUS charges: She is accusing
Kevin of the federal crime of identity theft and she is accusing Kevin
of the moral (albeit not legal) creime of slandering an entire
religion.
Kevin, in another post, denied the identity theft charges flatly, saying
that he not only did not create the porn page attributed to Racine, he
never saw it.
Racine states that despite Kevin's denials, she has electronic evidence
linking him to the identity theft crimes. Now it is incumbant upon
Racine to bring her proof -- or to stop making the accusations --
because if she keeps it up, Kevin can sue her for libel and slander!
Kevin has not commented on Racine's other charge, that of being a party
to the creation of "that sick text you all wrote, characterizing kanzo
ceremonies as orgies." Racine's use of the term "you all" implies that
she believes there were other writers involved in addition to Kevin.
Will Racine name the other participants she is accusing?
Will Kevin deny involvement in the "sick text" incident?
Stay tuned.
> >I think what motivates your little wankers' circle is nothing but
> >plain old jealousy - that's why you sent that pedophilic ex-priest
> >to my benefactresses house with printouts of your sick lies!
>
> Are you, or are you not, accusing a former student of harassment?
Racine obviously and clearly is making an accusation of harrassment
against Kevin and an unnamed group of co-conspirators, including an
"ex-priest" of unstated relgious faith.
Kevin may deny involvement in this harrassment incident or admit to
involvment (presumably with a mitigating explanation) either before or
after Racine clarifies the naure of the charges. A simple, "i don't know
what you are talking about," would be sufficient.
Racine should then either name the "ex-priest" and explain the incident
fully -- or stop naming Kevin in these accussations without making them
plain in terms of who, what, when, wanbd where she avers they occurred.
Also, the "pedophilic ex-priest" may have a case of libel or slander
against Racine, if he is named and is not a pedophile -- or he may hold
his peace if in fact her description of him is accurate.
> >Until
> >this moment, Kevin, I have never so much as lit a candle against
> >any one of your little liars' club, I have never put so much as a
> >straw in your path. Do you think God is a myth? Do you think
> >Guinea is deaf, dumb, blind, and powerless?
>
> Are you, or are you not, threatening to work wanga against a former
> student?
She is not threatening that. It is quite clear from her post. She is
calling upon her deities to intervene.
> And my final question:
> Do you think that any of the above behavior, is something which a
> mambo's benefactress, or her potential future clients, should be
> fully informed of?
This is a disingenuous question, Kathy. Basically you are asking Racine
if she thinks that Kevin has an a priori legal right to slander her in
usenet without presenting evidence of her wrong-doing. If you asked such
a question in court, there would be an objection from Racine, and i have
no doubt it would be sustained.
I hope that i am not offending anyone. If i am, i am doing so because
all my requests for inhibition of this gossip have failed. When
inihibition fails, then taking the gossip very seriously -- treating it
as substantive and worth of discussion -- is the only way i know to deal
with it.
cat (Judge Judy) yronwode
Kathy Latzoni
Let's try this again:
In article <20010516164232...@nso-dd.aol.com>, Racine125 says...
>
>In article <AnuM6.3734$6j3.3...@www.newsranger.com>, Kevin
>Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>>Whatever I told Racine in Haiti I told her in her capacity as a Mambo. As
>>such,
>>I expected that she would keep it in confidence.
>
>Oh no you didn't! You are NOT my initiate. If you regarded me
>as your Mambo you would never conduct the sort of smear campaign
>against me that you have conducted here. You can't have
>it both ways.
>
Did you, or did you not, post information here in a public forum which was told
to you in confidence?
>>I can tell you that I did not create any "porno page" or any other page
>>dedicated to Racine. I'll go one better: I never even SAW the "Racine Porno
>>Page."
>
>You, who brag of your vast collection of pornography, are now
>as innocent as the driven snow? Keep it up.
>
Are you, or are you not, formally accusing one of your former students of
libeling you?
And, once again: do you, or do you not, feel that these behaviors are something
of which a mambo's "benefactress", and potential future clients, should be fully
informed?
Cordially,
Kathy L.
Kathy Latzoni
>you.
>
>I am not sure I agree with everything Frauds R Us said, but I would
>like to point out one thing: There is NOTHING in the Vodou tradition
>which prevents me from slapping a mucho mega wanga on
>Kevin, for instance. He is not my initiate, he starts these smear
>campaigns every time I return from Haiti for a visit to the USA.
>
>I was once falsely accused of working wanga against my
>own initiates, and I was very upset by the accusation. I
>complained of it to a Houngan I knew, and do you know what
>he said? He said, "Oh, so WHAT if you did? I know you
>didn't, but so what if you did? You are a Mambo, doing wanga
>is your profession! It's like accusing a doctor of writing
>presciptions. If people were doing that stuff to me, I would
>have shot a wanga under their asses a long time ago, just
>*because* they accused me of it when I didn't do it."
>
So, are you, or are you not, threatening to work wanga on one of your former
students?
And do you, or do you not, feel that the July 2001 kanzo initiates should be
fully informed of this?
Cordially,
Kathy L.
Kathy Latzoni
>
>Kathy Latzoni wrote:
>> And my final question:
>> Do you think that any of the above behavior, is something which a
>> mambo's benefactress, or her potential future clients, should be
>> fully informed of?
>
>This is a disingenuous question, Kathy.
True enough -- and also one which ends with a preposition. :)
[It could also be noted that my own nasty, distasteful gossip, so far, has
consisted of factual statements; questions, however disingenuous, to Racine; and
reposts of her own writing which she chose to place in an archivable,
retrievable public forum...]
> Basically you are asking Racine
>if she thinks that Kevin has an a priori legal right to slander her in
>usenet without presenting evidence of her wrong-doing. If you asked such
>a question in court, there would be an objection from Racine, and i have
>no doubt it would be sustained.
>
You're right, cat; I didn't word my question clearly enough.
How about this: "**If** a mambo -- **any** mambo -- has **provably** done any of
the above things, then should her benefactress, and her potential future
clients, be informed of this?"
As Kevin has already said he has evidence and witnesses to support the claims
he's making, I have no issue with adding the "provably" clause to my above
statement.
>I hope that i am not offending anyone.
I hope that I am not offending you, either...
> When
>inihibition fails, then taking the gossip very seriously -- treating it
>as substantive and worth of discussion -- is the only way i know to deal
>with it.
>
Am I to infer from this statement, that you do not find a killfile to be a
workable option for you?
Thanks as always for your thoughtful comments.
Cordially,
Kathy L.
People's Commissar
they do is just for show, psychodramatical significance.
Of course they turn to poison or even the use of diseases. You can get
teterododoxin from a puffer fish. Not deadly? Ok. Try some. Filan would
not want to be near Immokalee and get those Haitians ticked off at him.
That would be very bad.
TJ
--
Satanic Reds http://www.satanicreds.org
Unique - check it out! www.darktradition.com
Member of the Satanic Council
http://www.geocities.com/sataniccouncil/mainmenu.html
Dark Doctrines part of Satanic Reds Org.
http://www.apodion.com/vad/dark/
http://satanmuse.rules.it/
SLAVA NAM! POWER TO THE WORKING PEOPLE!
<frauds....@right.here> wrote in message
news:9dv3qu$4gh$0...@pita.alt.net...
> Puffer fish are not something that can make you "VERY sick" - the venom in
> them is DEADLY. It is one of the deadliest neurotoxins known to man and,
> unless you receive the antidote in short order it will reliably kill you.
>
> The only trick is how to get it in your food or drink - not all THAT
> difficult.
>
> (Not that this would be out of character; when these frauds can't manage
to
> make their "black magic" work they turn to things like using ACTUAL
poison!)
>
> In article <tg5faif...@corp.supernews.com>,
Racine125
Latzoni<lat...@my-deja.com> writes:
>So, are you, or are you not, threatening to work wanga on one of your former
>students?
etc., etc.
By the way, when was Kevin ever my student? I performed a
lave tet for him, that's it.
Play your games, Ms. Latzoni. I have a real life, a happy one,
and I know miserable people when I see them.
Go and do something constructive, go outside and take
a walk in the woods, go help someone who is sick, do
SOMETHING to clean out the cobwebs and improve
your disposition.
Racine125
>The only trick is how to get it in your food or drink - not all THAT
>difficult.
Actually it is administered through the skin in our tradition,
mixed with things to make you scratch.
But this is more the purview of the Sanpwel, really. For more
information on the Sanpwel, see:
http://members.aol.com/racine125/sanpwel.html
Kathy Latzoni
>
>In article <m0CM6.4573$6j3.4...@www.newsranger.com>, Kathy
>Latzoni<lat...@my-deja.com> writes:
>
>>So, are you, or are you not, threatening to work wanga on one of your former
>>students?
>
>etc., etc.
>
>By the way, when was Kevin ever my student? I performed a
>lave tet for him, that's it.
>
So, you're saying that you performed work for him. [He disputes this, but let's
leave that aside for the moment...]
Would you then agree that this makes him a former "client" of yours? Would you
prefer that term?
In which case, I note that you have not denied:
- posting information to a public forum which a client told you in confidence;
- accusing a former client of breaking the law;
- threatening to sue a former client;
- accusing a former client of harassing you;
- threatening to work wanga against a former client.
Am I correct that you have not denied taking any of these actions?
And if so [note the "if so", cat :) ] , do you think that this is information
which the July 2001 kanzo group ought to have, in order to be able to make a
fully informed decision about taking an initiation in your house?
Cordially,
Kathy Latzoni
Racine125
Latzoni<lat...@my-deja.com> writes:
>So, you're saying that you performed work for him. [He disputes this, but
>let's
>leave that aside for the moment...]
No, let's not. That lave tet is on videotape, Kevin has a
copy, which I provided for him, free of charge. Shove
that in your VCR and have a look.
You really have time on your hands, don't you? LOL!
catherine yronwode
>
> In article <3B02EC...@luckymojo.com>, catherine yronwode says...
> >
> > Kathy Latzoni wrote:
> >> And my final question:
> >> Do you think that any of the above behavior, is something which a
> >> mambo's benefactress, or her potential future clients, should be
> >> fully informed of?
> >
> > This is a disingenuous question, Kathy.
>
> True enough -- and also one which ends with a preposition. :)
>
> [It could also be noted that my own nasty, distasteful gossip, so
> far, has consisted of factual statements; questions, however
> disingenuous, to Racine; and reposts of her own writing which she
> chose to place in an archivable, retrievable public forum...]
prose is less toxic.
> > Basically you are asking Racine
> > if she thinks that Kevin has an a priori legal right to slander
> > her in usenet without presenting evidence of her wrong-doing. If
> > you asked such a question in court, there would be an objection
> > from Racine, and i have no doubt it would be sustained.
>
> You're right, cat; I didn't word my question clearly enough.
>
> How about this: "**If** a mambo -- **any** mambo -- has **provably**
> done any of the above things, then should her benefactress, and her
> potential future clients, be informed of this?"
As long as they are not libel or lies, then word of mouth reports about
anyone providing a service are fair information.
It yet remains to be seen whether Kevin is libelling Racine. And if he
is not -- *if* she did in fact spread scandal out of his private
confidences, then i would expect her to own up to it and vow to change
her ways. It is my hope that *if* Racine transgressed the boundaries of
the confidences Kevin gave to her, then she will apologize and he will
accept her apology.
Likewise, we already know that Kevin is spreading malicious gossip about
Racine's sex life.It is my hope that he will apologize for this and that
she will accept his apology.
Further, *if* Kevin put up that porn site in Racine's name, i would hope
he would admit it and stand contrite before the world, and that Racine
would forgive him.
And if he did *not* do it, then i hope Racine will realize that she is
viciously maligning an innocent person and will apologize for her
mistaken accusations and that Kevin will accept her apology.
So much damage has been done all around to the reputations of both
parties that it will take weeks before civility is restored and perhaps
several years for emotions to cool. But i am confident that this can
come to pass, provided that neither party is mentally ill or has an
economic stake in destroying the other.
> As Kevin has already said he has evidence and witnesses to support
> the claims he's making, I have no issue with adding the "provably"
> clause to my above statement.
Okay. Next step. Who are the witnesses?
If Racine's abuse of confidence is important enough to Kevin that he
really wants to bring it to usenet and expect readers such as myself to
take his charges seriously, his case must be presented in a reasonable
and factual way. Until Kevin's witnesses or friends are named and speak
up on their own behalfs, i only have his word that they exist -- and
lots of evidence that he practices hit-and-run gossip tactics, which
might cast his words in dount.
It's time to look at this conflict squarely and on the level.
Will Kevin's witnesses post here under their real names? Do they have
telephone numbers? Can i call them and speak with them as i did a few
months ago with Kevin? Can i mail them packages and receive packages
from them as i did a few years ago with Racine?
> > I hope that i am not offending anyone.
>
> I hope that I am not offending you, either...
Nope. You have an orderly mind and i have a doggedly peristent mind.
> > When inihibition fails, then taking the gossip very seriously --
> > treating it as substantive and worthy of discussion -- is the
> > only way i know to deal with it.
>
> Am I to infer from this statement, that you do not find a killfile
> to be a workable option for you?
It is a "workable" but not an optimum option for me in this instance.
I have often killfiled people who are total, irremedial cult-mongering
jerks (Dharmadeva in alt.magick.tantra comes to mind). I have also used
a temporary killfile on people who flame me (Jo Liciardi-Martinez comes
to mind, although recently i have stopped kill-filing her because by
reading follow-ups to her posts, i saw that she is no longer aggresively
hostile to me).
The thing is, i find it difficult to enjoy usenet AND killfile people
who make substantive posts.
Kevin, Racine, and you fall in the category of people whose writing i
enjoy greatly, and who are intelligent, helpful, reasonable and friendly
... except when you indulge in nasty sexual and economic gossip. I could
certain kill-file threads only, i suppose, rather than posters by name,
but then i would miss a lot of interesting chit-chat. After all, this is
a social venue as much as a scholarly one and what would be the fun of a
social engagement if half of the attendees or half of the comments were
invisibile to me?
> Thanks as always for your thoughtful comments.
Thanks for your patience with my persistence.
Racine125
archives. It's a bit silly to cry that someone has
violated your confidence when you have said
things that would not only constitute a violation of confidence
if they were true, but in fact are out and out falsehoods!
Kevin's comments to me while he was in Haiti were as follows:
He said that I had "saved his life" by performing
his lave tet. (I don't think I saved his life, I think
he would have lived anyway.) This is verifiable, because
Kevin made this remark in front of a videocamera.
Kevin said to me and to all the other people present
that he wanted us to come to New York and shake
some sense into him if he returned to his old ways.
This is likewise verifiable - and I would like to point out
that Kevin himself, the poor lost soul, is in possession
of that very video! LOL!
Kevin said that he felt several other initiation candidates in the
July 1999 kanzo were being unreasonable when they
complained at paying $12 US for three meals a day. I
think so too, how about you?
Kevin said to me, Emile, Danise, and several other
people present that he though Aboudja was "a jerk".
Big deal.
And in any case, Kevin is not my intiaite, he is not my
student, he is not affiliated in any way with the Roots Without End
Society.
I don't mind saying that it is my considered opinion that Kevin is
indeed damaged by his use of pornography, his affiliation
with Satanism, and by God knows what other perversions
of which I am not aware.
On the other hand, Kevin has falsely accused me of
stealing money from him personally, and attempting to "rip
him off" - said "rip-off" consisting of my prescribing for him,
at his request, a series of herbal baths, each of which
would cost $51. That reminds me, Kevin has also revealed
certain leaves used his lave tet, which he was cautioned
by myself and Danise not to reveal, and which he promised
not to reveal.
He has made filthy remarks about my private parts,
and vulgar allusions to a love relationship which ended
almost two years ago. He has falsely accused me
of borrowing $1000 from some unnamed person and
failing to pay it back. He has... well, like I said,
review the Usenet files.
In fact, I'll make it easy for you, here are a few samples
of warnings floating around about Kevin, who has earned
himself the nickname of "Count Pedofilan":
""Count Pedofilan's ... Hotmail account was revoked because
he used it as the return address on his abusive Usenet messages.
...He also callously refers to people who suffer from epilepsy as
"droolbuckets"... He was even fired from his workplace for releasing
his enemies' personal information on the Internet. ... and of NAMBLA,
the National Man-Boy Love Association [one of whose members was
convicted for the sex murder of Jeffrey Curley, a child he abducted,
sodomized, and murdered along with a partner, he wrote:]... "I do think
they raise some thought-provoking issues."
He has lost jobs and has been arrested himself for hacking
into peoples accounts and also posting private info on the
various NG's he belongs to. "
But hey, maybe all of that is just lies, maybe Kevin is an
innocent victim... let's look at what he says all on his own.
Here is Kevin Filan in his own words -
To a Usenet foe:
"I already have your
address and phone number.
There are a couple of evangelical churches in
your town. I wonder how they would feel if they
found out their neighbor was a Satanist.
It would suck if your car got trashed again...
Just something for you to rattle around in your
syphilis-befogged brain.
That being said:
Shut up, whore. Nobody gave you permission to speak."
And to another person who apparently vexed him:
"Hey Amber -- why don't you bend over and let me jam my
vein-choked love-rod up your tight little butt, until I pop the
dingleberry-encrusted 'roids which dangle from your bunghole like so many
throbbing, pus-filled, hairy grapes?"
You know what I think, Kathy? I think you both are BONKERS.
I think your lives are so sad, so miserable, and so
perverted by pornography and Satanism and every
other fancy conceit that comes down the pike, that you
have a tenuous connection with reality at best. I think Kevin
would have been happy if he came to Haiti and found
some evil voodoo people that could teach him how to do
the nasty in strange new ways and take pictures at the
same time!
I think you have nothing better to do than to stir up dust, and
then complain because the air is dusty.
I, on the other hand, have a happy life, a professional
career, an absolutely FINE peristyle, a really special
partner, three horses, one cow, good health...
and no more time for YOU. LOL!
Kevin Filan
>
>Kathy Latzoni wrote:
>Yes, you seem to be less heated in your opinions than Kevin, and your
>prose is less toxic.
Obatala sends us people to test our patience: I suspect this explains the
relationship which Racine and I have. Alas, I haven't always passed this test
with flying colors. Sorry about that...
>As long as they are not libel or lies, then word of mouth reports about
>anyone providing a service are fair information.
I'm curious as to why it is that none of Racine's current or former initiates
have chimed in on her behalf. Out of thirty or forty people she's brought into
the djevo, not one has seen fit to defend her. I know that if someone were
accusing one of my friends of fraud and incompetence, I'd jump right in. (I'd
probably jump in without counting to 10, but that's a personality flaw I'm
working on... )
There are other people on this forum and on other forums who are priests with
dozens of initiatory children. To my knowledge, none of them have faced the
kind of attacks Racine has faced... and each of them have former students with
whom they interact online and offline, and who would be happy to provide them
with character references publicly and privately.
>It yet remains to be seen whether Kevin is libelling Racine. And if he
>is not -- *if* she did in fact spread scandal out of his private
>confidences, then i would expect her to own up to it and vow to change
>her ways. It is my hope that *if* Racine transgressed the boundaries of
>the confidences Kevin gave to her, then she will apologize and he will
>accept her apology.
I doubt very much that this will happen. If you've been watching Racine's
posts, you may have noticed a trend: whenever something bad happens to her or to
those around her, it is always Someone Else's Fault. Have you yet heard her
acknowledge any wrongdoing, or admit that her own behavior played any part in
any problems she may have faced?
>Likewise, we already know that Kevin is spreading malicious gossip about
>Racine's sex life.It is my hope that he will apologize for this and that
>she will accept his apology.
The posts about Emile and Yves were out of line, and intended solely to cause
Racine emotional pain. I apologized once for them and apologize again.
>Further, *if* Kevin put up that porn site in Racine's name, i would hope
>he would admit it and stand contrite before the world, and that Racine
>would forgive him.
I didn't. Honestly. It's not like I've never put up a flame site lambasting an
opponent. If/when I *do* put up a parody page dedicated to Racine, it will be
good for at least a few chuckles, and will have my name displayed prominently.
If you check the Deja archives, you'll see that I'm quite willing to sign my
name to foul-mouthed flames if I wrote them.
>And if he did *not* do it, then i hope Racine will realize that she is
>viciously maligning an innocent person and will apologize for her
>mistaken accusations and that Kevin will accept her apology.
This isn't vicious maligning so much as galloping paranoia. It's like Racine's
contention that I was only attacking her because I wanted to help my friends get
rich by doing initiations in America. She can't comprehend that someone might
honestly disagree with her: rather, there must always be some underhanded plot
going on to topple her from her rightful throne as Mambo Asogwe.
>So much damage has been done all around to the reputations of both
>parties that it will take weeks before civility is restored and perhaps
>several years for emotions to cool. But i am confident that this can
>come to pass, provided that neither party is mentally ill or has an
>economic stake in destroying the other.
I think this particular round of the Filan/Racine flamewar yielded several good
discussions. The threads on authenticity, and on gender and gender presentation
in African Diaspora religions, were certainly worthwhile. It's obvious Racine
and I disagree on quite a few issues -- but you can't have a debate with people
you agree with, can you?
It may have helped add to my reputation as a flamehead, which isn't necessarily
a good thing... but it also garnered me yet ANOTHER curse threat. That makes
four curses this year as a result of my online activities: I may well be the
Most Cursed Man on Usenet...
That being said: if Racine persists in her thinly-veiled wanga threats, I
reserve the right to laugh at those threats, and to crosspost them to
alt.satanism, a place where such threats are frequently heard and just as
frequently mocked. If Racine wishes to wear oversized shoes and a big red nose,
then she shouldn't be surprised when people call her Bozo.
>Okay. Next step. Who are the witnesses?
>
>If Racine's abuse of confidence is important enough to Kevin that he
>really wants to bring it to usenet and expect readers such as myself to
>take his charges seriously, his case must be presented in a reasonable
>and factual way.
I've already given the "pornography and Satanism" example and another example
concerning a different student (who may speak up or remain silent as he wishes).
In the first case, Racine hasn't denied it, but rather has said (a) I wasn't her
initiate or her student, she just did work for me and (b) I was spreading a
bunch of lies about her anyway, so it's all right.
> Until Kevin's witnesses or friends are named and speak
>up on their own behalfs, i only have his word that they exist -- and
>lots of evidence that he practices hit-and-run gossip tactics, which
>might cast his words in dount.
>
>It's time to look at this conflict squarely and on the level.
>
>Will Kevin's witnesses post here under their real names? Do they have
>telephone numbers? Can i call them and speak with them as i did a few
>months ago with Kevin? Can i mail them packages and receive packages
>from them as i did a few years ago with Racine?
I'll talk to a couple of my friends and see if they would be willing to speak
with you on the phone about this, if you are sincerely interested. That might
help to establish, at least, that my concerns are genuine and that this is
something more than just a personality clash between myself and Racine.
catherine yronwode
>
> I'd suggest that any interested party review the Usenet
> archives. It's a bit silly to cry that someone has
> violated your confidence when you have said
> things that would not only constitute a violation of confidence
> if they were true, but in fact are out and out falsehoods!
>
> Kevin's comments to me while he was in Haiti were as follows:
>
> He said that I had "saved his life" by performing
> his lave tet. (I don't think I saved his life, I think
> he would have lived anyway.) This is verifiable, because
> Kevin made this remark in front of a videocamera.
>
> Kevin said to me and to all the other people present
> that he wanted us to come to New York and shake
> some sense into him if he returned to his old ways.
> This is likewise verifiable - and I would like to point out
> that Kevin himself, the poor lost soul, is in possession
> of that very video!
Thank you, Racine. That was a very clear statement. I think i understand
your position now: you and your friends videotaped what Kevin said at a
public ceremony and thus you consider any personal revelations he made
to have been public, not confidential. This accords with what i i
already know of you -- you are sharp-tongued and sometimes given to the
rhetoorical vice of imposed irony, but so far you have not been
unusually vicious.
Kevin: is this true? If not, can you explain Racine's staements as you
see the facts?
Next, Racine, i think you might want to re-examine your opinions of
pornography, pedophilia, and Satanism, insofar as you continualy invite
us to share in loathing them and in blaming Kevin's emotional ups and
downs on these factors. These three things -- pedophilia, pornography,
and Satnism -- do not go hand-in-hand the way red beans, rice, and
Crystal Hot Sauce do. They need to be drawn out into the light of day
and examined singly.
Frst, let's look at pornography. Many men and some women enjoy it a lot.
It is legal, stimulating to those who have conditioned themselves to its
imagery, and it is essentially a private and harmless form of sexual
activity. But the word iteself is open to a LOT of misuse in today's
society, so your use of it in regard to Kevin is unclear.
For instance, I am not a porn user or porn author myself -- as *i*
understand the term -- but the word "pornography" is so broadly defined
that my own non-porn web site, luckymojo.com, is screened from use by
those who install "child-protective" or "anti-porn" software because it
contains words like "clitoris" and "penis." One person's porn may be
another person's anatomy lesson. One person's porn may be another
person's love-letter. One person's porn may be another person's
sex-magic.
So ... what if Kevin is into porn? What business is it of yours or ous?
He is not our lover, after all! None of us readers can even begin to
understand what *you* mean by the word "porn" versus what Kevin may mean
by the same word unless you explain. Is "porn" to you a Gap
advertisement peopled with gyrating women or is "porn to you a Playboy
bunny half-airbrshed into vacuity, or is "porn" to you videos of
leather-bondage but not videos of people having "plain vanilla" sex? Who
knows how you define pornt? Who cares? Who knows how Kevin defines porn?
Who cares?
Not i. Not i.
Then we have the subject of pedophilia, which you have often brought up
in regard to Kevin. Obviously, if this particular sexual orientation is
carried out into action, pedophilia is a crime. I myself was once a
victim of that crime and have reason to hate it with an intensity that
might shock the mild-mannered among us here today. But is Kevin really a
pedophile, and is his friend the ex-prest really a pedophile as you
charged -- or were cruel people in usenet making jokes based on his last
name, Filan (pronounced fie'-lan), and calling him "Pedofilan" because
it is an obvious pun? I don't know. And i suspect you don't know eihter.
Kevin? Are you a pedophile?
If he is not, Racine -- will you apologize?
Finally, we have Satanism. Like pornography, it carries a heavy load of
preconceived notions -- in this case, of "worshipping evil" -- and also
like pornography, it suffers under a broadness of definition that makes
it almost impossible to describe any given form of Satanism in less than
a monograph. One person's Satanism may be another person's radical
ecology. One person's Satanism may be another person's enlightened
materialism. One person's Satnism may be another person's mental
illness. Remember all those black blues singers who sell their souls to
the Devil at a crossroads?
Did you know that alt.satanism, where Kevin frequently posts, is so rich
with contrasting definitions of the word "Satanism" that it has SIX
different FAQ files, defining and describing six entirely different
forms of Satanism? My husband, nagasiva yronwode, maintains and reposts
those FAQs and also manages a large web-based archive of material about
the varieties of Satanism at
http://www.satanservice.org
-- and he is not into pedophilia or even pornography of the typical
Playboy/Penthouse sort.
Basically, Racine, Satanism, no matter how defined or by whom, is either
a religion or a philosophy (or, in some cases, both) -- and as such, it
is not an appropriate add-on when flaming someone. I mean, if the person
is a Satanist, then so be it. They might just as well be a Wiccan or a
Vodouisant, or a Palero or a Christian or a Buddhist or an Atheist -- it
really makes no never-mind.
Your dragging in of Satanism as a brish with which to tar Kevin is not
going to win folks over to your rhetorical standpoint: we all know what
"they" say about Vodouisants, about Christians, about Jews, and about
American Indians. Every culture accuses every other culture of
cannibalism. Every religion accuses other religions of heresy, of
harbouring criminals, of blood-sacrifice. So Kevin may be a Satanist. So
what? Ask him about it sometime. He may have information that would
interest you.
> Kevin said that he felt several other initiation candidates
> in the July 1999 kanzo were being unreasonable when they
> complained at paying $12 US for three meals a day. I
> think so too, how about you?
Hey, if this is the extent of the conflict between you two, then i'll
stand you both to dinner (and Kathy too) and we can be friends again!
> Kevin said to me, Emile, Danise, and several other
> people present that he though Aboudja was "a jerk".
>
> Big deal.
Well, like you said, "Big deal." Again, if this is the extent of the
conflict between you two, let's invite Aboudja along for dinner too and
all shake hands!
> And in any case, Kevin is not my intiaite, he is not my
> student, he is not affiliated in any way with the Roots Without End
> Society.
This i understand. Thank you for clarifying.
> I don't mind saying that it is my considered opinion that Kevin is
> indeed damaged by his use of pornography, his affiliation
> with Satanism, and by God knows what other perversions
> of which I am not aware.
You may not mind saying it, but as i noted above, i think it is not
helping your case to say it. If you stick to the facts, the matter will
clarify itself much more quickly.
> On the other hand, Kevin has falsely accused me of
> stealing money from him personally, and attempting to "rip
> him off" - said "rip-off" consisting of my prescribing for him,
> at his request, a series of herbal baths, each of which
> would cost $51.
I remeber Kevin's outrage over this and thought it very peculiar at the
time.
Kevin: $51.00 is not an unreasonable figure in the world of hoodoo,
where similar herblal baths are prescribed. The materials might cost a
dollar or so wholesale and $2,00 to $4,00 retail, but one is also paying
for the time and expertise -- and spiritual dedication -- of the root
worker.
A good metaphor might be to having one's hair dyed: the dye itself
retails for around $8.00 and the professional can buy it for $4.00 or
less -- and the time involved in preparation and performance of the act
of hair-dying is equivalent to giving an herbal rub-down or bath. And,
not so strangely, where i live, in northern California, the basic rate
for having someone dye your hair and trim the ends is $50.00.
> That reminds me, Kevin has also revealed
> certain leaves used his lave tet, which he was cautioned
> by myself and Danise not to reveal, and which he promised
> not to reveal.
That is certainly worthy of note.
> He has made filthy remarks about my private parts,
> and vulgar allusions to a love relationship which ended
> almost two years ago.
Kevin has been horrible in this regard, Racine, and i hope that
something said or done here in usenet will cause him to stop such ugly
attacks. I hope that you too will back away from discussing his sexual
life. I know it is difficult to do drop your hand unilaterally when
someone is being as egregiously vile as he has been, but if he is the
only one foaming at the mouth, then we will see who the real rabid dog
is.
> He has falsely accused me
> of borrowing $1000 from some unnamed person and
> failing to pay it back. He has... well, like I said,
> review the Usenet files.
Yes, i saw that, and your reply -- that it was $300.00, not $1,000.00
and that it was a gift, not an unrepaid loan.
Kevin: Can you substantiate your claim? Or will you drop it and admit
your error?
> In fact, I'll make it easy for you, here are a few samples
> of warnings floating around about Kevin, who has earned
> himself the nickname of "Count Pedofilan":
Racine, what follows here is GARBAGE and you know it. Sayings "about
Kevin" are nothing more thn flames. You clim that he "earned" the name
"Pedofilan"? Can you prove it?
[stupid flame post by some anonymous person snipped.]
Shame on you, Racine.
> Here is Kevin Filan in his own words -
>
> To a Usenet foe:
>
> "I already have your
> address and phone number.
>
> There are a couple of evangelical churches in
> your town. I wonder how they would feel if they
> found out their neighbor was a Satanist.
> It would suck if your car got trashed again...
>
> Just something for you to rattle around in your
> syphilis-befogged brain.
>
> That being said:
>
> Shut up, whore. Nobody gave you permission to speak."
This is typical of Kevin's uncontrolled angry posts. I find his writing
along this line to be distateful, threatening, and giving the appearance
of borderline mental illness.
I hope, Kevin, that you realize the poor impression that you make on
others when you write like this. It is especially disingenuous to
threaten your fellow Satanists with exposure as Satanists in the hope
that violence will be committed against their possessions or themselves
by their intolerant neighbors!
> And to another person who apparently vexed him:
>
> "Hey Amber -- why don't you bend over and let me jam my
> vein-choked love-rod up your tight little butt, until I pop the
> dingleberry-encrusted 'roids which dangle from your bunghole like so
> many throbbing, pus-filled, hairy grapes?"
Without context, this little exercise in fantasy anal sadism could be a
joke between friends or a vicious attack on a stranger; not knowing how
it fits into the larger conversation between Kevin and Amber, it need
not be seriously considered as anything but a sign of Kevin's
willingness to expose his own organ of sexual pleasure to bacterial
infection in order to express a sense of dominance -- or at least to
talk as if he might.
> You know what I think, Kathy? I think you both are BONKERS.
> I think your lives are so sad, so miserable, and so
> perverted by pornography and Satanism and every
> other fancy conceit that comes down the pike, that you
> have a tenuous connection with reality at best.
An opinion -- but again, what for? Moralizing is not going to produce a
rapproachment here. There are enough sibstantive issues here to keep
everyone occupied without descending to oddball locutions like
"bonkers."
> I think Kevin
> would have been happy if he came to Haiti and found
> some evil voodoo people that could teach him how to do
> the nasty in strange new ways and take pictures at the
> same time!
Another opinion -- and a cruel one. So what? Let's stick to what Kevin
has said and done, okay?
> I think you have nothing better to do than to stir up dust, and
> then complain because the air is dusty.
No, Racine, i think there is something far deeper going on here. I'm not
sure yet just what it is, in part because your angry outbursts cloud the
issue. What i see is that Kevin seems to have a double standard in
place, posting some very interesting and intellectually refined material
interspersed with the lowest form of shit-talk one could imagine. Doing
that is not a sign of "having nothing better to do." It is a sign of
disturabnce.
Whoever or whatever is disturbing Kevin -- he says it is you, you say it
is his Satanism -- i want to get to the bottom of it and see if it can
be deconstructed and then disarmed.
Likewise, you can't seem to keep on track and mentally calm either: you
get my sympathy in gear by showing how trashy Kevin is -- and just when
i think he is a psychopath or worse, then you drop a lot of flame-quotes
"about Kevin" into the thread as if we were to take them seriously --
and i end up thinking that *you* are the trashy one.
We ALL have "something better to do" than this.
> I, on the other hand, have a happy life, a professional
> career, an absolutely FINE peristyle, a really special
> partner, three horses, one cow, good health...
> and no more time for YOU. LOL!
Why "laugh out loud," Racine? You seem far too engaged in this conflict
for me to believe that you can suddenly dismiss it with a cynical laugh
at the end of a post.
And why brag about your material goiods so often? I have a two acre
spread; an 11-room two-storey Victorian farm house, a barn; three cats,
a dog, and seven chickens; 350 rose bushes; a vegetable garden; an
orchard of apples, plums, figs, persimmons, and pears; two online
businesses and a career as a freelance; five computers; a loving
husband; a daughter in medical school; 850 pieces of 1930s-era
catalin-handled stainless steel flatware; and good health! Does this
mean that i am favoured by God Almighty and the Holy Angels? Does the
person with the most material goods claim to be the one with the most
spiritual value? If i buy a sixth computer or acquire three new rose
comb black banty hens will i be more blessed by God?
> Peace and love,
And pece and love to you, too, Racine, and to Kevin, and to Kathy.
cat yronwode
Kevin Filan
>
>> He said that I had "saved his life" by performing
>> his lave tet. (I don't think I saved his life, I think
>> he would have lived anyway.) This is verifiable, because
>> Kevin made this remark in front of a videocamera.
>>
>> Kevin said to me and to all the other people present
>> that he wanted us to come to New York and shake
>> some sense into him if he returned to his old ways.
>> This is likewise verifiable - and I would like to point out
>> that Kevin himself, the poor lost soul, is in possession
>> of that very video!
>
>Thank you, Racine. That was a very clear statement. I think i understand
>your position now: you and your friends videotaped what Kevin said at a
>public ceremony and thus you consider any personal revelations he made
>to have been public, not confidential. This accords with what i i
>already know of you -- you are sharp-tongued and sometimes given to the
>rhetoorical vice of imposed irony, but so far you have not been
>unusually vicious.
Perhaps Racine would be so kind as to point to the videotape wherein I talked
about my "vast collection of pornography?" She's flung that accusation around a
couple of times, presumably based on some conversation we had in Haiti. (It's a
conversation that I don't recall... and one which would be odd for several
reasons, but more on that later). In other words:
(a) I told my spiritual advisor about my vast collection of pornography; she
later chose to use this information to embarass me.
(b) I never said anything about this, and she just pulled it out of her backside
in an effort to embarrass me.
Neither of these are particularly flattering to Racine.
>Kevin: is this true? If not, can you explain Racine's staements as you
>see the facts?
Racine facilitated a trip to Haiti for me in August 1999. During that trip, I
received a lave tet from Danise David. Racine was not there at that time: IIRC,
she was chasing cows with Emile or something similar. She came back later and
insisted on pouring more water-and-leaves over my head, and on videotaping this
for posterity. I'm sure she will scream that this is not what happened, but
this is how I remember it. And, again, there are others who were there who will
be able to vouch for that.
>Next, Racine, i think you might want to re-examine your opinions of
>pornography, pedophilia, and Satanism, insofar as you continualy invite
>us to share in loathing them and in blaming Kevin's emotional ups and
>downs on these factors.
Racine feels that it is inappropriate to provide a ghede with *Playboy* magazine
(a magazine said Ghede enjoyed in life), and that this proves that I am a sick
pornography addict. Others, including validly initiated Houngans and Mambos,
have disagreed with her. Your mileage may vary.
> These three things -- pedophilia, pornography,
>and Satnism -- do not go hand-in-hand the way red beans, rice, and
>Crystal Hot Sauce do. They need to be drawn out into the light of day
>and examined singly.
My "Satanism" consists of membership in the Church of Satan. This is an
organization dedicated to the work of Anton LaVey. LaVey was one of the last
great American Misanthropes, in the tradition of folks like Mencken, Bierce and
Twain: he was also, IMHO, one of the greatest performance artists of all time.
(Anton LaVey was the larger-than-life creation of Tony Levy, itinerant musician
and self-taught scholar). The Church of Satan is *not* an occult organization:
IMO, it's far more similar to the Elgar Appreciation Society than to the O.T.O.
or the Temple of Set. It's a fan club for a great American character: I'd say
LaVey was at least as entertaining a character as William S. Burroughs, and
arguably a better writer to boot.
Racine would have you believe that the Church of Satan advocates amoral or
immoral behavior: this is false. LaVey repeatedly comments on the need for
people to take responsibility for their own actions, but he also advocates "love
given to those who deserve it instead of charity wasted on ingrates" and
"vengeance rather than turning the other cheek." Indeed, LaVey was wont to rail
against our "victim culture" and our tendency to blame every personal failing on
society, bad toilet training, etc.
Anybody who has any sincere questions on Anton LaVey's question of ethics and
the Church of Satan's ethical position on various issues is welcome to present
the same to me; I'll be happy to give you an honest answer.
>Frst, let's look at pornography. Many men and some women enjoy it a lot.
>It is legal, stimulating to those who have conditioned themselves to its
>imagery, and it is essentially a private and harmless form of sexual
>activity. But the word iteself is open to a LOT of misuse in today's
>society, so your use of it in regard to Kevin is unclear.
I'm not sure that I'd classify the stuff I buy Harvey as "pornography." He
likes nudie magazines, but has no interest in hardcore stuff ("What are you
showing me all these dicks for? You trying to turn me into a faggot or
something?" is one sample Harvey-quote on the subject...) Nor does he show any
interest in bondage or in anything harder than standard newsstand fare.
As for myself, I'm a big fan of Larry Flynt's writing. At his best he was ten
years ahead of Jim Goad and a hell of a lot funnier. I'm not particularly
aroused on by the pictorials in his magazines: if I wanted extreme closeups of
female genitalia, I'd buy a gynecology textbook. Believe it or not, I only read
*Hustler* for the articles... and the cartoons. I own a few *Hustlers* and am
well aware that some would call them pornography: I call them my way of
supporting the First Amendment, and of having a good laugh. But that's the
extent of my "pornography" collection. Giuliani notwithstanding, I live in New
York City: if I wanted porno, I could easily get stuff which makes *Hustler*
look like *Mrs. Grundy's Guide to Etiquette For the Proper Young Lady.* I never
have: it's not my bag, baybee...
I also have on occasion written for adult/erotica publications for money. I
have contributors copies of a couple of those magazines as well. I've also
covered high school soccer matches for a small town newspaper for money
(considerably less money than I make writing erotica, actually)... yet nobody
accuses me of an unhealthy interest in soccer.
But of course all this is irrelevent, as Cat wisely points out. Would an
interest in pornography, even an addiction to pornography, in and of itself
invalidate my criticisms of Racine?
>So ... what if Kevin is into porn? What business is it of yours or ous?
>He is not our lover, after all! None of us readers can even begin to
>understand what *you* mean by the word "porn" versus what Kevin may mean
>by the same word unless you explain.
What I have stated above constitutes the sum total of my interest in, possession
of, and involvement with "pornography." Whether or not that constitutes being
"into porn" is an individual call. I doubt that most therapists would call my
involvement in pornography unhealthy, or say that it constituted an "addiction."
>Then we have the subject of pedophilia, which you have often brought up
>in regard to Kevin. Obviously, if this particular sexual orientation is
>carried out into action, pedophilia is a crime. I myself was once a
>victim of that crime and have reason to hate it with an intensity that
>might shock the mild-mannered among us here today. But is Kevin really a
>pedophile, and is his friend the ex-prest really a pedophile as you
>charged -- or were cruel people in usenet making jokes based on his last
>name, Filan (pronounced fie'-lan), and calling him "Pedofilan" because
>it is an obvious pun? I don't know. And i suspect you don't know eihter.
>
>Kevin? Are you a pedophile?
No. I am not sexually attracted to prepubescents or adolescents of either
gender. And I'd call those people "lame and juvenile" rather than cruel. I
think I first heard "Pedofilan" in 1980 or thereabouts, when I was 15. It
wasn't funny then, nor was it a particularly cutting insult. And it hasn't
improved with age.
Since until today I have never even heard of the "pedophile ex-priest" Racine
mentions, I cannot comment on his sexual attractions.
>Finally, we have Satanism. Like pornography, it carries a heavy load of
>preconceived notions -- in this case, of "worshipping evil" -- and also
>like pornography, it suffers under a broadness of definition that makes
>it almost impossible to describe any given form of Satanism in less than
>a monograph. One person's Satanism may be another person's radical
>ecology. One person's Satanism may be another person's enlightened
>materialism. One person's Satnism may be another person's mental
>illness. Remember all those black blues singers who sell their souls to
>the Devil at a crossroads?
I've stated my involvement with "Satanism" above. The "Satanism" to which
Racine refers is my involvement with Goetic workings using the Lesser Key of
Solomon. I have discovered that these workings, improperly performed, can cause
you damage: I am not alone in this discovery, or in this conclusion. I've since
sworn off working with the Goetia after getting burned: Racine has confused this
with my membership in the CoS and feels I've "backslid into Satanism and
pornography."
>Your dragging in of Satanism as a brish with which to tar Kevin is not
>going to win folks over to your rhetorical standpoint: we all know what
>"they" say about Vodouisants, about Christians, about Jews, and about
>American Indians. Every culture accuses every other culture of
>cannibalism. Every religion accuses other religions of heresy, of
>harbouring criminals, of blood-sacrifice. So Kevin may be a Satanist. So
>what? Ask him about it sometime. He may have information that would
>interest you.
>
>> Kevin said that he felt several other initiation candidates
>> in the July 1999 kanzo were being unreasonable when they
>> complained at paying $12 US for three meals a day. I
>> think so too, how about you?
>
>Hey, if this is the extent of the conflict between you two, then i'll
>stand you both to dinner (and Kathy too) and we can be friends again!
I said that I felt the complaints about the cost of food were unreasonable. I
live in New York, where I can easily spend $12 or more for lunch. I also said,
during that conversation, that Racine needed to provide more structure. There
was a constant feeling of incipient chaos during the August 1999 kanzo.
"Classes" to teach people about Vodou were never held; meals were prepared late
and sometimes skipped entirely; trips into the city were postponed for days at a
time until water ran dangerously low. Racine brushed off my concerns,
preferring instead to rant about what horrible people these other initiation
candidates were.
It was my contention that getting things organized and running smoothly was not
an impossible task; if it was too much for one person to handle, then
responsibilities should be delegated to trusted people. If you don't trust
somebody enough to put them in charge of ensuring three meals are provided per
day, you surely don't trust them enough to initiate them. Racine refused to
listen to any suggestions I had, or to acknowledge that i.e. running out of
drinking water would be a bad thing and perhaps we really should make sure that
somebody goes into the city tomorrow, even if you (Racine) are busy doing
something else.
>> Kevin said to me, Emile, Danise, and several other
>> people present that he though Aboudja was "a jerk".
>>
>> Big deal.
>
>Well, like you said, "Big deal." Again, if this is the extent of the
>conflict between you two, let's invite Aboudja along for dinner too and
>all shake hands!
I don't recall saying that I thought Aboudja was a jerk. Depending on my mood
or on Aboudja's mood, maybe I did say that, although I honestly don't remember
so doing. At various times Racine has also claimed that I called Aboudja an
"idiot" -- and I know for a fact that I did NOT use that term to describe
Aboudja. So I'm not sure how reliable she is as a source here either.
>> And in any case, Kevin is not my intiaite, he is not my
>> student, he is not affiliated in any way with the Roots Without End
>> Society.
>
>This i understand. Thank you for clarifying.
So if you're not initiated or affiliated in Roots Without End, you cannot expect
Racine to honor your privacy if it suits her purposes.
>> I don't mind saying that it is my considered opinion that Kevin is
>> indeed damaged by his use of pornography, his affiliation
>> with Satanism, and by God knows what other perversions
>> of which I am not aware.
>
>You may not mind saying it, but as i noted above, i think it is not
>helping your case to say it. If you stick to the facts, the matter will
>clarify itself much more quickly.
>
>> On the other hand, Kevin has falsely accused me of
>> stealing money from him personally, and attempting to "rip
>> him off" - said "rip-off" consisting of my prescribing for him,
>> at his request, a series of herbal baths, each of which
>> would cost $51.
>
>I remeber Kevin's outrage over this and thought it very peculiar at the
>time.
>
>Kevin: $51.00 is not an unreasonable figure in the world of hoodoo,
>where similar herblal baths are prescribed. The materials might cost a
>dollar or so wholesale and $2,00 to $4,00 retail, but one is also paying
>for the time and expertise -- and spiritual dedication -- of the root
>worker.
Considering that the baths in question were presented to me as "Haitian Vodou"
and in fact came from Luisa Teish's "Jambalaya," I'm wondering who deserved the
$51.00 a bath here? Should I send it to Luisa Teish? The issue at the time was
that Racine began pressuring me with every call to send her money so I could
start my "Haitian Rainbow Baths." But, in any event, I will admit that some
people would not consider these charges unreasonable. I was trying to avoid
mention of same until Racine responded to one of my questions with "Kevin
falsely accused me of stealing money from him." I thought it best to clarify
what I had *actually* said, and thus the whole issue came up again.
I'm willing to drop the whole question of the "Rainbow Baths" as a
misunderstanding, and stick to the other issues which have been presented. On
the other hand, if Racine feels obligated to post yet another "KEVIN FALSELY
ACCUSED ME OF STEALING FROM HIM!!!" rant, I'm going to feel obligated to post
what I really said... and I suspect we'll see this cycle begin yet anew.
>> That reminds me, Kevin has also revealed
>> certain leaves used his lave tet, which he was cautioned
>> by myself and Danise not to reveal, and which he promised
>> not to reveal.
>
>That is certainly worthy of note.
The leaf I have revealed, "fey kapab" was NOT part of the lave tet. Fey Kapab
is not a herb which cleanses, but a herb which "heats things up." Racine should
know that: the fact is that Racine has less knowledge of Haitian herbology than
an average Haitian farmer, never mind a Haitian Mambo Asogwe.
>Kevin has been horrible in this regard, Racine, and i hope that
>something said or done here in usenet will cause him to stop such ugly
>attacks. I hope that you too will back away from discussing his sexual
>life. I know it is difficult to do drop your hand unilaterally when
>someone is being as egregiously vile as he has been, but if he is the
>only one foaming at the mouth, then we will see who the real rabid dog
>is.
My sense of humor can be difficult to stomach at times, I admit. Still, I've
seen plenty of mud, filth, and nasty needling innuendo coming from Racine. I've
seen her make nasty AIDS comments when arguing with a gay man, and she's not
been above trying to paint me (and now, by extension, Kathy) as pornography
addicts. Is open profanity worse than veiled nastiness?
>> He has falsely accused me
>> of borrowing $1000 from some unnamed person and
>> failing to pay it back. He has... well, like I said,
>> review the Usenet files.
>
>Yes, i saw that, and your reply -- that it was $300.00, not $1,000.00
>and that it was a gift, not an unrepaid loan.
>
>Kevin: Can you substantiate your claim? Or will you drop it and admit
>your error?
I'll get in touch with the person involved and see what he says. If I am wrong
-- or if he just wants to drop the whole matter -- I will apologize and drop the
matter.
>> In fact, I'll make it easy for you, here are a few samples
>> of warnings floating around about Kevin, who has earned
>> himself the nickname of "Count Pedofilan":
>
>Racine, what follows here is GARBAGE and you know it. Sayings "about
>Kevin" are nothing more thn flames. You clim that he "earned" the name
>"Pedofilan"? Can you prove it?
Of course she can't: it's just more of that needling, nasty innuendo for which
Racine has become famous.
>> Here is Kevin Filan in his own words -
>>
>> To a Usenet foe:
>>
>> "I already have your
>> address and phone number.
>>
>This is typical of Kevin's uncontrolled angry posts. I find his writing
>along this line to be distateful, threatening, and giving the appearance
>of borderline mental illness.
>
>I hope, Kevin, that you realize the poor impression that you make on
>others when you write like this. It is especially disingenuous to
>threaten your fellow Satanists with exposure as Satanists in the hope
>that violence will be committed against their possessions or themselves
>by their intolerant neighbors!
The person I wrote that to had posted my personal information repeatedly, along
with threats to come "burn my house down" and have several of her "fag-hating
friends" show up and "give me some Youngstown justice." She had also made
harassing phone calls to me, to my employer, and to the employers of several
friends of mine. Since she had no compunctions about telling my employer that I
was a Satanist (she also threw in "Computer Hacker," and "Child Molester"), she
was hardly in a position to complain should I decide to return the favor.
(FWIW: you are correct that this isn't the most effective approach. A few phone
calls to her local police department seem to have taught her appropriate
behavior, at least for the moment).
>Without context, this little exercise in fantasy anal sadism could be a
>joke between friends or a vicious attack on a stranger; not knowing how
>it fits into the larger conversation between Kevin and Amber, it need
>not be seriously considered as anything but a sign of Kevin's
>willingness to expose his own organ of sexual pleasure to bacterial
>infection in order to express a sense of dominance -- or at least to
>talk as if he might.
It was part of a flamewar between alt.satanism and alt.vampires, wherein one
person chided the alt.satanism regulars for being "foul-mouthed."
>An opinion -- but again, what for? Moralizing is not going to produce a
>rapproachment here. There are enough sibstantive issues here to keep
>everyone occupied without descending to oddball locutions like
>"bonkers."
>
>> I think Kevin
>> would have been happy if he came to Haiti and found
>> some evil voodoo people that could teach him how to do
>> the nasty in strange new ways and take pictures at the
>> same time!
>
>Another opinion -- and a cruel one. So what? Let's stick to what Kevin
>has said and done, okay?
I'm curious as to WHY finding "evil voodoo people" would be wrong. According to
what Racine has said and said and said, Vodou is about power, not morality. Of
course, she also claims that she doesn't practice Vodou that way... which begs
the question of how "authentic" she really is and why she feels the need to hold
initiations in Haiti, given the general moral inferiority of the average Haitian
Vodouisant.
>No, Racine, i think there is something far deeper going on here. I'm not
>sure yet just what it is, in part because your angry outbursts cloud the
>issue. What i see is that Kevin seems to have a double standard in
>place, posting some very interesting and intellectually refined material
>interspersed with the lowest form of shit-talk one could imagine. Doing
>that is not a sign of "having nothing better to do." It is a sign of
>disturabnce.
Why would you think the two are mutually exclusive? James Joyce was certainly
capable of writing both.
>Whoever or whatever is disturbing Kevin -- he says it is you, you say it
>is his Satanism -- i want to get to the bottom of it and see if it can
>be deconstructed and then disarmed.
What you call the "lowest form of shit-talk" is pretty much par for the course
on alt.satanism. (I understand that this is not necessarily a selling-point...)
For recreation, I hang out on alt.satanism and flame the idiots who line up for
that purpose. Sometimes when I go to other newsgroups wherein the conversation
is more scholarly and polite, I forget my surroundings.
>Likewise, you can't seem to keep on track and mentally calm either: you
>get my sympathy in gear by showing how trashy Kevin is -- and just when
>i think he is a psychopath or worse, then you drop a lot of flame-quotes
>"about Kevin" into the thread as if we were to take them seriously --
>and i end up thinking that *you* are the trashy one.
>
>We ALL have "something better to do" than this.
>
>> I, on the other hand, have a happy life, a professional
>> career, an absolutely FINE peristyle, a really special
>> partner, three horses, one cow, good health...
>> and no more time for YOU. LOL!
>
>Why "laugh out loud," Racine? You seem far too engaged in this conflict
>for me to believe that you can suddenly dismiss it with a cynical laugh
>at the end of a post.
Given that Racine has had "no more time for" this discussion a couple of times
already, I'm guessing she'll somehow scrape up the hours needed to compose a
response to everything that I post.
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I'm curious as to why it is that none of Racine's current or former initiates
>have chimed in on her behalf.
Because I have specifically instructed my initiates not to
become involved! I am blessed with a fair number of positive,
respectful, fun-loving, happy, powerful and knowledgeable
initiates, but I am head of household and I will deal with
things like this.
>That being said: if Racine persists in her thinly-veiled wanga threats
Kevin, I have repeatedly said that I have never yet performed
a wanga against you, I have never so much as lit a candle
against you. I prefer to leave these things in the hands of
God and Guinea, who have quite obviously rewarded me in
very material ways, as well as spiritually. In fact, I hope you
keep it up! The more you lie and slander, the more good
fortune comes my way. :-)
Racine125
Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>Perhaps Racine would be so kind as to point to the videotape wherein I talked
>about my "vast collection of pornography?" She's flung that accusation around
>a
>couple of times, presumably based on some conversation we had in Haiti.
>(It's a
>conversation that I don't recall... and one which would be odd for several
>reasons, but more on that later). In other words:
>
>(a) I told my spiritual advisor about my vast collection of pornography; she
>later chose to use this information to embarass me.
No, Kevin, you have repeatedly referred yourself to your
pornography collection on these very forums! You even
pervert Vodou service to the point of making up a phoney-
baloney Gede lwa to whom you offer this pornography.
These are not things I revealed about you, these are things
you revealed about your own sorry self!
>Racine facilitated a trip to Haiti for me in August 1999. During that trip,
>I
>received a lave tet from Danise David. Racine was not there at that time:
What a lie! On the videotape, Danise and I can be seen conducting
the entire ceremony from the beginning, with the Priere Guinea,
to the end. The ceremony lasted several hours because we
washed Kevin's head seven times. We concluded with a presentation
to the Cross of Baron, and at that time Houngan Edgar assisted
and brought Kevin before the Cross. That also is on videotape.
Kevin is also on that tape thanking me for "saving his life".
I am disgusted that Kevin can take the sacred ceremonies of
this tradition so lightly, but actually my recent Usenet research
has given me a better indication of his lack of character, so I
suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
(cat wrote:)
>>Next, Racine, i think you might want to re-examine your opinions of
>>pornography, pedophilia, and Satanism, insofar as you continualy invite
>>us to share in loathing them and in blaming Kevin's emotional ups and
>>downs on these factors.
I do indeed feel that these things are harmful, not only to those
women brutalized, objectified and abused by the pornography
industry, those children victimized by pedophiles, and those
lost souls led into service to the Father of Lies, but to those who
dehumanize themselves by buying and reading pornographic
and pedophilic material.
> LaVey... advocates ..."vengeance rather than turning the other cheek."
I rest my case.
>pornography... is essentially a private and harmless form of sexual
>activity.
Harmless! I think not.
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/gstevens - is
a page by a man who was used in the child porn industry.
"Each time my picture is viewed", he says, "I am being
assaulted all over again."
http://sen.parl.gc.ca/lpearson/1a-focus.html - is the page of
the International Summit of Sexually Exploited Youth.
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/catw/ - is the page of
the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women.
These pages and many more detail the catastrophic consequences
of involvement in the pornography industry for it's victims, and
the dehumanizing effects of that industry on it's patrons.
>I also
>said,
>during that conversation, that Racine needed to provide more structure.
>There
>was a constant feeling of incipient chaos during the August 1999 kanzo.
>"Classes" to teach people about Vodou were never held; meals were prepared
>late
>and sometimes skipped entirely; trips into the city were postponed for days
>at a
>time until water ran dangerously low.
False. We had dance classes, vever classes, and so on.
Sometimes classes were *rescheduled* to permit candidates
to participate in *Vodou ceremonies* being held in the
peristyle, which were not related to the kanzo. I certainly
considered this a valuable opportunity, as did the candidates.
Everyone had three meals a day and no one ever ran out
of water. Saying, "Water is getting low, I have to leave you
for a little while to go get some more", is not "water running
dangerously low".
>I don't recall saying that I thought Aboudja was a jerk. Depending on my
>mood
>or on Aboudja's mood, maybe I did say that, although I honestly don't
>remember
>so doing.
Yes you did! Your memory is selective.
>At various times Racine has also claimed that I called Aboudja an
>"idiot" -- and I know for a fact that I did NOT use that term to describe
>Aboudja.
Yes you did. Your memory is selective. In fact you had
quite a few negative comments to make about Aboudja (which
I feel were more than justified, and which I now find amusing
in the light of your later attempts to kiss up to him! LOL!).
(cat wrote:)
>So if you're not initiated or affiliated in Roots Without End, you cannot
>expect
>Racine to honor your privacy if it suits her purposes.
I repeat that these things I am supposed to have "revealed" about
Kevin are things he either revealed on this forum, or things which
he said to numerous people in Haiti. It's not like we were in
the confessional! And if Kevin feels that I am his spiritual advisor,
then he too would be obliged to respect my authority, which
clearly he does not.
>Considering that the baths in question were presented to me as "Haitian
>Vodou"
>and in fact came from Luisa Teish's "Jambalaya," I'm wondering who deserved
>the
>$51.00 a bath here?
::sigh::
Some of the things we do are similar to some of the things
written in "Jambalaya". That is no surprise, the book is about
New Orleans Voodoo, mostly. Since I am the one who composes
the bath, writes the instructions, and in some case (not
Kevin's however) administers the bath, why should I not be
paid? There are people who will charge a lot more than that
merely to prescribe a commercially produced bath which the
client then goes and buys in a botanica. I don't do that, I go
and buy the herbs, prepare them, perform the invocations, and
so on.
In fact, I use these baths myself and I have good results
from them, it's not like I'm foisting off on others something
I would never do for myself!
>Racine began pressuring me with every call to send her money so I could
>start my "Haitian Rainbow Baths."
False. I never pressured you, YOU on the other hand told me
that you also wanted to have a rogacion de cabeza from a
babalawo who initiated in the August 1999 Kanzo, and I told
you AND him that I thought this was a very good idea.
>The leaf I have revealed, "fey kapab" was NOT part of the lave tet.
>Fey
>Kapab
>is not a herb which cleanses, but a herb which "heats things up." Racine
>should
>know that: the fact is that Racine has less knowledge of Haitian herbology
>than
>an average Haitian farmer, never mind a Haitian Mambo Asogwe.
And you come to this conclusion based on... your vast experience
of Haitian herbal medicine and ritual? BAH!
Fey kapab is an ingredient used in many rituals, not just lave tets.
It is generally viewed as an "amplifier", in the sense that cleansing
rituals become *more* cleansing, "hot" work becomes "hotter",
"freshening" work becomes "more freshening", and so on. The
partial and inaccurate knowledge on which you base your statements
leads naturally to incorrect assertions.
>I've
>seen her make nasty AIDS comments when arguing with a gay man
I said to that gay man what I say to *each and every* initiate who comes
to Haiti - USE CONDOMS to avoid transmitting or becoming infected
by sexually transmitted diseases *including AIDS*. I don't police my
initiates, and I notice that a surprisingly high percentage of the
July 1999 group found sexual partners in Haiti prior to their initiation,
but I do advise all my initiates and their partners to make sure to
use condoms.
>I'm curious as to WHY finding "evil voodoo people" would be wrong.
I suppose if stereotypically scary, evil voodoo people are what you
are looking for you can go somewhere and find that. In my house
we offer authentic Vodou services.
>According
>to
>what Racine has said and said and said, Vodou is about power, not morality.
>Of
>course, she also claims that she doesn't practice Vodou that way... which
>begs
>the question of how "authentic" she really is
That is my choice and perogative as a Mambo asogwe! I am
not required to do malevolent magic to be an authentic Mambo,
but those who do so are not invalidated by the tradition
either. We do swear not to do harm to innocents, but in most
Haitian communities, where feuds over land or women or
other issues can literally go back for generations, it is usually
not so clear who is innocent and who is not. Coup and contre-coup,
fer koupe fer, wanga and garde, it's part of the tradition and
I didn't make it up, but I do report it truthfully. Likewise, I am
not the only Mambo or Houngan to reject malevolent work
under most circumstances.
catherine yronwode
>
> Kevin Filan<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
> > Perhaps Racine would be so kind as to point to the videotape
> > wherein I talked about my "vast collection of pornography?" She's
> > flung that accusation around a couple of times, presumably
> > based on some conversation we had in Haiti. (It's a
> > conversation that I don't recall... and one which would be odd for
> > several reasons, but more on that later).
>
> pornography collection on these very forums!
Since i do not recall Kevin referring to his "vast collection of
pornography" in usenet -- except to deny your charges and to enumerate
the pornography that he does own -- i am now asking you, Racine, to cite
an example of his doing this. If you cannot, i would suggest that you
drop the issue. In fact, since he already posted the extent of his porn
mag holdings, you can drop it right now -- beause there is no "vast
collection."
> You even pervert Vodou service to the point of making up a phoney-
> baloney Gede lwa to whom you offer this pornography.
> These are not things I revealed about you, these are things
> you revealed about your own sorry self!
Kevin, i too wondered about your mention in a previous post about
offering pronography to a Gede lwa. Can you explain this? What is the
name of this Gede lwa?
Racine, you claim that Kevin is "making up a phoney-baloney Gede lwa" --
can you explain this to me? Are not the Gede well-known entities?
Why is this one "phoney-baloney"? Do ANY Gede have an interest in
pornography -- or is the very topic itself un-Gede-lwa-like?
> > Racine facilitated a trip to Haiti for me in August 1999. During
> > that trip, I received a lave tet from Danise David. Racine was
> > not there at that time:
>
> What a lie! On the videotape, Danise and I can be seen conducting
> the entire ceremony from the beginning, with the Priere Guinea,
> to the end. The ceremony lasted several hours because we
> washed Kevin's head seven times. We concluded with a presentation
> to the Cross of Baron, and at that time Houngan Edgar assisted
> and brought Kevin before the Cross. That also is on videotape.
> Kevin is also on that tape thanking me for "saving his life".
Okay, now we have a conflict of memories:
Kevin -- you claimed earlier that while Racine was away Danise David did
the entire ceremony and was not taped, and then Racine came back and
performd the ceremony again, presumeably for taping purposes.
Racine -- you claim that you and Danise performed the ceremony together
for several hours, from the beginning to the end, and that a portion of
the ceremony was taped.
Is this the gist of the dispute about the tape?
> I am disgusted that Kevin can take the sacred ceremonies of
> this tradition so lightly
Understood.
> (cat wrote:)
> > > Next, Racine, i think you might want to re-examine your
> > > opinions of pornography, pedophilia, and Satanism, insofar as
> > > you continualy invite us to share in loathing them and in
> > > blaming Kevin's emotional ups and blaming Kevin's emotional
> > > ups and downs on these factors.
>
> I do indeed feel that these things are harmful, not only to those
> women brutalized, objectified and abused by the pornography
> industry, those children victimized by pedophiles, and those
> lost souls led into service to the Father of Lies, but to those who
> dehumanize themselves by buying and reading pornographic
> and pedophilic material.
Again, you are conflating pronography with pedophilia, but they are
separate issues, although there is a sublass of pedophilic pornography,
of course.
Second, you have equated ALL pornography with "women brutalized,
objectified and abused," when it is a fact that a great deal of
pornography is self-generated by the participants for their own
pleasure. Also, conflating brutalization with objectification is to
lessen the moral stigma placed upon actual physical brutality.
And third, you are completely overlooking what i had wearlier written,
namely that what one person calls pornography another calls "home
movies" or "anatomy books" or "a cute cartoon." I have been called to
testify in a porn case and was stupified to hear the prosecutor refer to
a silly comic book parody of the old 1940s radio soap opera "One Man's
Family" as "pornography" because the characters who spoke the lines were
all drawn as little genitals with hands and feet (like a Mr. Potato
figure). And who was "brutalized" to make that comic book? A bottle of
ink, stabbed into with a pen? The store owner was found guilty of
selling pornography in the lower court -- but the case was reversed on
appeal.
> > LaVey... advocates ..."vengeance rather than turning the other
> > cheek."
>
> I rest my case.
The concept of seeking vengeance rather than emulating Christ's
submission to assault is not unique to Satanism. It is common throughout
the world, especially among non-Christian people, including the Jews,
from whom Christ drew most of his other teachings. Perhaps this is news
to you...?
> > pornography... is essentially a private and harmless form of
> > sexual activity.
>
> Harmless! I think not. [snip URLs] These pages and many more detail
> the catastrophic consequences of involvement in the pornography
> industry for its victims,
Yes, i understand the extremes you are talking about here and
acknowledge their existence, but much pornography -- especially since
the invention of the web -- is of the c onsenting adult "show and tell"
variety, and much of it, as i noted above, consists of little drawings
or written prose -- neither of which require "victims" to exploit.
> and the dehumanizing effects of that industry on its patrons.
Here you and i agree, Racine: in my life experience i have found that
men who become conditioned to the imagery of pornography tend to make
poor lovers and unsuccessful life partners. Their attitudes toward women
are by turn sexually naive and inappropriately commercialized. I feel
sorry for them, much as i might feel sorry for alcoholics, tobacco
addicts, women obsessed with fancy clothes and make-up, or men to whom
money is the be-all and end-all of life -- or any other person whose
natural processes have been subverted or perverted by one of
civilization's many addictive temptations.
But that does not make pornography ipso fact dehumanizing -- there are
so many things called pornography, and they appeal to and utilize such
varied portions of the human mind that it is unjust to lump them all
together.
> > I also said, during that conversation, that Racine needed to
> > provide more structure. There was a constant feeling of
> > incipient chaos during the August 1999 kanzo. "Classes" to teach
> > people about Vodou were never held; meals were prepared late
> > and sometimes skipped entirely; trips into the city were
> > postponed for days at a time until water ran dangerously low.
>
> False. We had dance classes, vever classes, and so on.
> Sometimes classes were *rescheduled* to permit candidates
> to participate in *Vodou ceremonies* being held in the
> peristyle, which were not related to the kanzo. I certainly
> considered this a valuable opportunity, as did the candidates.
>
> Everyone had three meals a day and no one ever ran out
> of water. Saying, "Water is getting low, I have to leave you
> for a little while to go get some more", is not "water running
> dangerously low".
Well, this seems to come down to personal life styles.
I know that folks have come to my home and thought it "dirty" because
the windows were open without screens and insects had flown in. I know
that i have gone to people's houses and thought them "disorganized"
because they had jumbled books and magazines and newspapers together
rather than keeping them in separate stacks.
The difference between "time to go into town and get water" and "water
supplies are dangerously low" may be one of experience in living without
running water -- or it may be the result of the way one's personal,
internal "clocks" are set. My husband loves full cupboards of food. I
like them almost empty, so i can use up everything we have before
shopping, or even fast for a day before shopping.
These sorts of differences between the two of you can be understood as
life style differences -- and need not become the topics of flame wars.
> > I don't recall saying that I thought Aboudja was a jerk.
> > Depending on my mood or on Aboudja's mood, maybe I did say
> > that, although I honestly don't remember so doing.
>
> Yes you did! Your memory is selective.
>
> > At various times Racine has also claimed that I called Aboudja an
> > "idiot" -- and I know for a fact that I did NOT use that term to
> > describe Aboudja.
>
> Yes you did. Your memory is selective. In fact you had
> quite a few negative comments to make about Aboudja (which
> I feel were more than justified, and which I now find amusing
> in the light of your later attempts to kiss up to him! LOL!).
Fine. Kevin says he may have caleed Aboudja a "jerk" and Racine recalls
that he did say it. Kevin says he did not use the word "idiot," but
Racine claims he did.
Let's just grant each person authority for their own words, okay? What
is agreed upo is that Kevin called Aboudja a "jerk."
The important point, Racine, is that he has made it clear that he uses
such terms loosely and changeably and in no way would the term "jerk"
reflect a fixed opinion on his part. Hence he does not feel he
cotradicts himself in being Aboudja's friend now.
You, on the other hand, would not use a word like "jerk" unless you had
a strong, fixed negative opinion of someone. Hence you think he is
two-faced to call someone that name one day and then befriend him on
another day.
Again, differences of langage use are at the root of this -- and those
are often cultural, i might add. They are not MORAL issues, though, and
can be passed over in peace by adults.
> (cat wrote:)
> > So if you're not initiated or affiliated in Roots Without End,
> > you cannot expect Racine to honor your privacy if it suits her
> > purposes.
I DID NOT WRITE THAT.
I realize that the long train of ascriptions is hard to follow, but here
is the original of that post:
----------------------
[Racine]:
> > And in any case, Kevin is not my intiaite, he is not my
> > student, he is not affiliated in any way with the Roots Without
> > End Society.
[cat]:
>This i understand. Thank you for clarifying.
[Kevin]:
So if you're not initiated or affiliated in Roots Without End, you
cannot expect Racine to honor your privacy if it suits her purposes.
---------------------
> I repeat that these things I am supposed to have "revealed" about
> Kevin are things he either revealed on this forum, or things which
> he said to numerous people in Haiti. It's not like we were in
> the confessional! And if Kevin feels that I am his spiritual
> advisor, then he too would be obliged to respect my authority,
> which clearly he does not.
Again, i understand.
> > Considering that the baths in question were presented to me as
> > "Haitian Vodou" and in fact came from Luisa Teish's "Jambalaya,"
> > I'm wondering who deserved the $51.00 a bath here?
>
> ::sigh::
>
> Some of the things we do are similar to some of the things
> written in "Jambalaya". That is no surprise, the book is about
> New Orleans Voodoo, mostly. Since I am the one who composes
> the bath, writes the instructions, and in some case (not
> Kevin's however) administers the bath, why should I not be
> paid? There are people who will charge a lot more than that
> merely to prescribe a commercially produced bath which the
> client then goes and buys in a botanica. I don't do that, I go
> and buy the herbs, prepare them, perform the invocations, and
> so on.
>
> In fact, I use these baths myself and I have good results
> from them, it's not like I'm foisting off on others something
> I would never do for myself!
Well said, Racine. You need not defend yourself on that account. As i
noted -- and as Kevin acknowledged later -- the price is not
unreasonable when compared to similar services, both sacred and secular,
performed by others.
> > Racine began pressuring me with every call to send her money so I
> > could start my "Haitian Rainbow Baths."
>
> False. I never pressured you, YOU on the other hand told me
> that you also wanted to have a rogacion de cabeza from a
> babalawo who initiated in the August 1999 Kanzo, and I told
> you AND him that I thought this was a very good idea.
Again, we have a "he sais she said" situation: one person's "pressure"
is another person's conversation. One person's "i think it's a good
idea" is another person's "she told me to..."
Language issues are easily understood as individual and not MORAL.
> > The leaf I have revealed, "fey kapab" was NOT part of the
> > lave tet. Fey Kapab is not a herb which cleanses, but a herb which
> > "heats things up." Racine should know that: the fact is that
> > Racine has less knowledge of Haitian herbology than an
> > average Haitian farmer,
Kevin, the average farmer of any county will tend to have more botanical
knowledge than the average anyone-else of that country. Comparing
Racine's knowledge to Haitian average farmer's is to hold her to a VERY
high standard indeed!!!
> never mind a Haitian Mambo Asogwe.
I would presume that a Mambo would have a more specialized and limitd
subset of knowledge than the average farmer. This is not said to
disrespect Mambos, merely to acknowledge that in general farmers are the
best botanists on the planet, in my opinion.
> And you come to this conclusion based on... your vast experience
> of Haitian herbal medicine and ritual? BAH!
Please stop squabbling and being sarcastic, folks. It doesn;t clarify
the issues and it wastes bandwidth.
> Fey kapab is an ingredient used in many rituals, not just lave tets.
> It is generally viewed as an "amplifier", in the sense that
> cleansing rituals become *more* cleansing, "hot" work becomes
> "hotter", "freshening" work becomes "more freshening", and so on.
> The partial and inaccurate knowledge on which you base your
> statements leads naturally to incorrect assertions.
Hey -- REAL INFORMATION! Can either of you give me the botanical name
for Fey Kapab?
I REALLY WANT TO KNOW -- because i use this forum to increase my
knowledge of botany and magic.
> > I've seen her make nasty AIDS comments when arguing with a gay
> > man
>
> I said to that gay man what I say to *each and every* initiate who
> comes to Haiti - USE CONDOMS to avoid transmitting or becoming
> infected by sexually transmitted diseases *including AIDS*. I don't
> police my initiates, and I notice that a surprisingly high
> percentage of the July 1999 group found sexual partners in Haiti
> prior to their initiation, but I do advise all my initiates and
> their partners to make sure to use condoms.
More "he said she said" stuff. Useless. Useless. Useless.
Accusing someone of political incorrectness is a weak charge, Kevin. Not
many folks will care enough to get heated up about it. You're scraping
the bottom of the barrel with this one unless you can prove a definite
line of concerted homophobia on Racine's part -- which would be damned
difficult to convince me of, given Racine's out-front web page about
homosexuality in Vodoun!
Racine -- do folks generally come to these intitiations as singles
looking for local sex? Or was that just an oddity of the 1999 kanzo,
which seems to have been odd in other ways as well, what with the thefts
and all?
> I suppose if stereotypically scary, evil voodoo people are what you
> are looking for you can go somewhere and find that. In my house
> we offer authentic Vodou services.
>
> > According to what Racine has said and said and said, Vodou is
> > about power, not morality. Of course, she also claims that she
> > doesn't practice Vodou that way... which begs the question of how
> > "authentic" she really is
>
> That is my choice and perogative as a Mambo asogwe! I am
> not required to do malevolent magic to be an authentic Mambo,
> but those who do so are not invalidated by the tradition
> either. We do swear not to do harm to innocents, but in most
> Haitian communities, where feuds over land or women or
> other issues can literally go back for generations, it is usually
> not so clear who is innocent and who is not.
Well said, Racine.
Kevin, you are picking at nits here. Everything Racine has said seems
consistent. As i understand it, Vodou morality is not the same as
Christian morality (the "turn the other cheek" thing) but anyone withoin
Vodou can choose to practice the gentle side of the tradition.
This corresponds IDENTICALLY to hoodoo, by the way (no surprise!) in
that hoodoo teaches and acknowledges malevolent "bad tricks" or "enemy
work" openly, but also gives full credibility to "lady-hearted workers"
(who can be men or women, with no implication of effeminate behviour)
who refuse to do jinxing or crossing jobs for clients.
> Coup and contre-coup,
> fer koupe fer, wanga and garde, it's part of the tradition and
> I didn't make it up, but I do report it truthfully. Likewise, I am
> not the only Mambo or Houngan to reject malevolent work
> under most circumstances.
As one old man in Lousiana told me, "Sure, i know how to put on a jinx
and how to cross folks up, but i don't need the money that bad. When i
die, i'm gonna meet my saviour face to face and tell him that i kep' my
hands clean."
Cordially,
cat (with slightly smudgy hands) yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Hoodoo and Blues Lyrics --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html
Racine125
<c...@luckymojo.com> writes:
>Racine, you claim that Kevin is "making up a phoney-baloney Gede lwa" --
>can you explain this to me? Are not the Gede well-known entities?
>Why is this one "phoney-baloney"? Do ANY Gede have an interest in
>pornography -- or is the very topic itself un-Gede-lwa-like?
Before I answer this one, cat, let me just excuse myeslf for
any mis-attributions in my previous post, I know that some
of the quotes were from you and some from Kevin, and I know
which were which, but if anyone else is confused I can see why.
Now as to this phoney Gede lwa named "Harvey" -
1) Gede lwa are NOT served with pornography! Nowhere in all
Haiti have I ever seen a Houngan or Mambo serve a Gede
lwa in this way, in fact such an idea would be considered laughable
at best and disrespectful at worst.
There is information on the Gede lwa on The VODOU Page under
Vodou Lesson 2, and information on the Vodou view of sexuality
under "Special Topics", titled "Sex in Vodou".
2) Secondly, Gede lwa have very characteristic names, they
don't have Christian given names like George or Harvey
or John. Some characteristic names include "Gede Ti-Mopyon
Deye LaLwa (La Croix in French)" which means Gede Little
Crab Louse Behind the Cros; "Secretaire de la Croix", Secretary
of the Cross; Gede Fatra de la Croix, Garbage Gede of
the Cross. They all have the last name La Croix because
their father is Baron La Croix.
3) Kevin has never undergone possession by this lwa and no
one else has either, it is merely a figment of his imagination.
4) Kevin at one point posted a quote from this so-called Gede
in which he made really filthy references to my private parts.
This is totally uncharacteristic - the Gede lwa, like Baron and
Brigitte, can use profanity, but it is always used humorously.
The Gedes never use vicious abuse to people, they never curse
people out or try to say nasty things to hurt people.
5) "Harvey" is apparently not served with the normal offerings
made to a Gede lwa - rum with pepper, playing cards, a baton
to dance with, old clothes, a battered top hat, sunglasses with
one lens removed, etc.
And so on... but hey, what can you expect from a man who thinks
that intellectual discourse on the web consists of threatening
those who disagree with him with anal rape with his "vein-choked
love rod"? I tell you, that little Usenet search I did the other evening
taught me a lot, mostly that Kevin is a sick person, much sicker
than I had ever imagined.
Houngan Aboudja
>>>Hey -- REAL INFORMATION! Can either of you give me the botanical
name
for Fey Kapab? I REALLY WANT TO KNOW -- because i use this forum to
increase my
knowledge of botany and magic.<<<
Hi Cat,
First let me say upfront that I am disinterested in jumping into this
nonsense between Kevin & Racine, though it does make for interesting
diversionary reading. However, before I get to the issue of Kapab, let
me say two things for posterity. First, the post regards Fawo ARE my
words, but *I* did not post them on deja.com as this Vodou-Boy person.
If I had wanted to jump in there with that info...I could have & would
have done so under my own nom de guerre. That was a cross post from
dialogue on another forum. Second, (& to Racine) I don't know what a
"Fanm Pye" is either, but I CAN say that the word you two are
quibbling about is not P-Y-E (foot), but P-Y-È (accent grave), as in
P-Y-È Tonè (the thunder stone), & I have a hard time believing that
even you, with your *vast* knowledge & experience in Haitian Vodou for
over a decade <snort!> did not know this.
Anyway, on to Cat's question. This is no particular secret (though I
am sure *someone* will holler' that it is....just as she writes down
what she has learned in her little book) LOL.
Fey Kapab (literally, "Can [do] leaf"): Schaefferia Frutescens (OR)
Completa, known in English as Florida Boxwood. I believe in Spanish,
but do not have my resource handy to say for sure, that this is either
Amansa Guapo or Palo Kaja.
The leaves (but not the bark) are used to bring up "luck", or as a
general enhancer to most things. The bark & roots are used otherwise.
It adds an extra punch to a work & is probably (along with Twa Pawol)
one of the most common "working" herbs used in the Vodou culture.
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
Kathy Latzoni
again... Kevin's describing the contact he's experienced with a spirit named
Harvey, and Racine's calling it "phony baloney" because it doesn't jibe with her
[considerable] experience of how dead spirits [Gede] behave in Haitian Vodou.
I recognize that there are certain conventions as to how *Haitian* Gede speak,
act, and are served *in Haiti*... I also wonder if some of these conventions
might be transformed or re-imagined as they travel to the United States, or
anywhere else in the Afro-Caribbean diaspora. [Pinging NathanSatan -- any
thoughts on how dead spirits behave in the UK???]
As we know already, the lwa are not served today in Haiti, in exactly the same
way as they are/were in the civilizations of Benin, Fon, et al. [Have a seat,
Aboudja -- I said, not *EXACTLY* the same way... ;) ]
For example, I don't believe that Ezili Freda requests Anais Anais perfume when
she is served in Africa; nor is the African Ogou Badagri seen as a Mason, as I
believe the Haitian Ogou Badagri is. [ cat or Russell might be able to provide
more information here...]
Given this, is it possible that an *American* Gede, who spent his life *in
America*, might retain the conventional Gede openness about sexuality, yet would
express this differently than a Haitian Gede would? [AFAIK, there isn't any
pornography produced commercially in Haiti -- so we have no real way of testing
Racine's hypothesis...]
I'm also intrigued by the fact that Harvey, in the time I've known him, has
always said he spent his life in America [Brooklyn, actually :)]; yet he also
has always insisted that he is a Gede, and no other type of dead entity. [Given
Kevin's 20 years of study in the Western occult traditions, if he wanted to
create a "phony baloney" Euro-American spirit, he could just have easily come up
with something out of ceremonial or chaos magick...]
So, what's the deal with that? I'm not sure. On a Yahoo! Groups list I'm
subscribed to, there was a recent discussion about ATR practitioners of European
descent... and Racine made the excellent point that, just because one's
*current* existence is as a white American, this is not necessarily true of
one's lives in the past.
So, we know what Harvey's been up to for the last couple of incarnations -- who
knows where he was before that??? Haiti? Benin? Mexico? [He keeps wanting me to
find out more about this Tlazolteotl chick... :) ]
Let's also keep in mind that, even if one's ancestors are "white", that's no
guarantee all those ancestors spent their entire lives in Europe or the United
States... Obviously, both Africa and the Caribbean have a long [and often
tragic] history of Western occupation and colonialization, and I'm pretty sure
the effects of that reverberate on the spiritual plane as well as the physical
one.
One of the dead spirits I've been working with is also from the United States
[New England, to be exact], comes from a Portuguese-American family [though he
has other nationalities in his ethnic background too], and has specifically
asked *not* to be referred to as a Gede [or an eggun, for that matter]. He's
*very* devoutly Catholic, as well -- and yet, he is also strongly drawn to
Kongo-based religious practices, and would like me to read and learn more about
them. AFAICT, he perceives no contradiction in this, in the times we've
discussed it ["Didn't God create those things, too?"...]
My first reaction was, "How'd THAT happen?!?" [as Dan Savage might say :) ]. As
I kept reading and studying, however, I learned that many of the Kongo practices
which have become part of Haitian Vodou and/or Palo Mayombe, actually derive
from the part of Africa colonized by the Portuguese [see the list of
slave-trading history links which I posted earlier to this forum...]
So, it's not inconceivable that someone of Portuguese descent, living in the
United States, would have ancestors who spent part or all of their lives in
Angola, for example -- especially if they were employed in the government or
military. And to me, it's not inconceivable that the "sins of the fathers"
committed by soldiers or colonists in an African country, could keep on having
spiritual consequences for generations, or even centuries, to come.
Stuff to think about. In the meantime, here's another question to discuss
amongst yrselves: how do practitioners of the various religions represented on
this forum, feel about calling another person's spirit contact "phony" or saying
that it doesn't exist??? Is there a protocol here?
There have been times when I've discussed my own spirit contact in other forums;
and those with more years of study/experience than I, have raised questions such
as, "Are you sure you're *really* talking to Lwa Humongous?" or, "Are you sure
this isn't a trickster spirit?", etc.
Sometimes, those voices of caution have been correct [I've misidentified spirits
before -- in at least one instance, spectacularly so!] And sometimes, it's
turned out that everything I was doing was fine. However, I've always felt that
the questions/warnings were given out of concern for my well-being and for my
spiritual development...
In the women's spirituality circles in which I used to move, one's personal
connection/communication with the divine was considered sacred. If someone did
you the honor of sharing with you a religious or spiritual experience she'd had,
it would have been ne plus ultra tacky to "silence" or "invalidate" that
experience by saying it never happened or didn't exist. [I realize that
communication from Harvey -- "How about springing for a rum and Coke, toots???"
-- isn't quite what most people think of as a "religious experience", but hey,
it's an inexact metaphor here...] ;)
There was also, in those women's circles, a privileging of spiritual practice at
the "grass roots" level -- and [for better or for worse] an automatic distrust
of institutionalization or hierarchy, especially when that hierarchy feels the
need to consolidate power by branding some laypeople's experiences as
"authentic" and others as not.
This always reminds me, somewhat, of the Gabriel Garcia Marquez story "A Very
Old Man With Enormous Wings" -- in which the parish priest, Father Gonzaga,
proclaims that the fallen angel of the story must be nothing more than a
"carnival trick," because he doesn't speak Latin. [And this will most likely be
the only time that the words "Harvey" and "angel" appear within two paragraphs
of each other...] :)
I know that in Haitian Vodou, there are elaborate systems of passwords used to
determine whether possessions, and other communications, are "authentic".
However, I also believe that in Haiti, calling a possession "phony" would be a
much more serious charge -- in the case of a houngan or mambo, it could be right
up there with saying someone had cheated his/her way through medical school. <:/
Any commentary on this from the perspectives of Ocha, Lucumi, Palo Mayombe,
Obeah, etc? [I'm hoping this would be an opportunity to get a non-flaming
discussion started here...]
Also, a couple questions for Racine, which I shall try to make as ingenuous as
possible. :)
>1) Gede lwa are NOT served with pornography! Nowhere in all
>Haiti have I ever seen a Houngan or Mambo serve a Gede
>lwa in this way, in fact such an idea would be considered laughable
>at best and disrespectful at worst.
>
What do Haitian-American houngans or mambos serve their gede with?
Can you give examples from the Haitian community in Boston, or in New York City?
Do you know any of the houngans or mambos in these communities? [Names would be
helpful -- I'm trying to get some networking started here...]
Also, have you seen Haitian-born Vodowizan [either in Haiti or in America] serve
La Sirene by singing "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" to her? [My guess is, they
wouldn't need to, as they would most likely know the Kreyol songs...]
So, if not, why is it that this deviation from standard practice would be
acceptable for an American practicing Vodou... yet buying an issue of _Playboy_
for Harvey would not be?
>2) Secondly, Gede lwa have very characteristic names, they
>don't have Christian given names like George or Harvey
>or John. Some characteristic names include "Gede Ti-Mopyon
>Deye LaLwa (La Croix in French)" which means Gede Little
>Crab Louse Behind the Cros; "Secretaire de la Croix", Secretary
>of the Cross; Gede Fatra de la Croix, Garbage Gede of
>the Cross. They all have the last name La Croix because
>their father is Baron La Croix.
>
Would this also be true of Gede in America?
Have you considered the possibility that "Harvey" is his nickname, and [like
many people on Usenet :) ] he also has another name which he chooses not to
share with you?
>3) Kevin has never undergone possession by this lwa and no
>one else has either, it is merely a figment of his imagination.
>
How would you know this, given that you have never visited our home, and you
have not seen or spoken to Kevin in person for almost two years?
Can you account for the fact that several validly initiated houngans and mambos
-- as well as several Palo initiates, and several Western magicians with years
of experience working with the dead -- will all vouch that they have "met"
Harvey, and spoken to him?
>4) Kevin at one point posted a quote from this so-called Gede
>in which he made really filthy references to my private parts.
>This is totally uncharacteristic - the Gede lwa, like Baron and
>Brigitte, can use profanity, but it is always used humorously.
>The Gedes never use vicious abuse to people, they never curse
>people out or try to say nasty things to hurt people.
>
How do Haitian Gede behave when they are angry?
Is it possible that an American Gede could behave in a different manner?
>5) "Harvey" is apparently not served with the normal offerings
>made to a Gede lwa - rum with pepper, playing cards, a baton
>to dance with, old clothes, a battered top hat, sunglasses with
>one lens removed, etc.
>
How would you know this, given that you have never visited our home, and you
have not seen or spoken to Kevin in person for almost two years?
[In fact, we do give him hot peppers and rum -- I believe Kevin has even posted
his recipe for "muerto crank" in the past. ;) Harvey also owns a cane/baton and
a pair of shades, and a very cool deck of playing cards with the Ace of Spades
on the back of each one of them...]
>I tell you, that little Usenet search I did the other evening
>taught me a lot, mostly that Kevin is a sick person, much sicker
>than I had ever imagined.
>
Is this "sick person" someone whom you chose to bring to Haiti with you?
Is this "sick person" someone whom [as you said here earlier] you chose to
perform a lave tet for?
Does this have any implications for the divination methods you've been
practicing???
Cordially,
Kathy L.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
> ... is it possible that an *American* Gede, who spent his life *in
> America*, might retain the conventional Gede openness about sexuality, yet would
> express this differently than a Haitian Gede would? [AFAIK, there isn't any
> pornography produced commercially in Haiti -- so we have no real way of testing
> Racine's hypothesis...]
Pornography is widely available in Haiti. No, there is no Gede who is
served with pornography, is called by a Christian name, does not
possess people, uses vicious abuse to people instead of characteristic
humor, and is not served in the normal manner of a Gede. That entity
is a figment of a twisted imagination, NOT a lwa Gede.
> Stuff to think about. In the meantime, here's another question to discuss
> amongst yrselves: how do practitioners of the various religions represented on
> this forum, feel about calling another person's spirit contact "phony" or saying
> that it doesn't exist??? Is there a protocol here?
Yes. If the person claims to have a lwa, and that lwa goes on to
abuse people, advocate for the personal interests of the horse, and
behaves in every way uncharacteristically, then that possession and
that lwa is PHONEY. For more information on the skepticism with which
putative possessions are regarded, see "What the Lwa Say - And What
They DON'T Say" at http://members.aol.com/raince125/saysay.html .
> What do Haitian-American houngans or mambos serve their gede with?
>
> Can you give examples from the Haitian community in Boston, or in New York City?
> Do you know any of the houngans or mambos in these communities?
In the USA we serve the Gede lwa with the same things with which the
Gede lwa are served in Haiti - rum with pepper, black and purple
scarves, playing cards, sunglasses with one lens removed, etc. Yes, I
do know a few people in New York and in Boston; and one or two in
Miami. No, I am not going to name them, they are not online.
> Also, have you seen Haitian-born Vodowizan [either in Haiti or in America] serve
> La Sirene by singing "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" to her? [My guess is, they
> wouldn't need to, as they would most likely know the Kreyol songs...]
>
> So, if not, why is it that this deviation from standard practice would be
> acceptable for an American practicing Vodou... yet buying an issue of _Playboy_
> for Harvey would not be?
Because singing songs about the sea is in character for a La Sirene
service! Serving Gede with pornography would be like serving La
Sirene with hot coals, it is uncharacteristic of the basic "vibe" of
that lwa..
> Would this also be true of Gede in America?
See above.
And to answer your next question, Gede lwa do not have "secret names"
which they only reveal to a chosen few.
And I do not care who thinks they have met this phoney baloney Harvey
Gede! Some people think they have met Elvis last week, others think
they have met little green men from Mars.
> How do Haitian Gede behave when they are angry?
>
> Is it possible that an American Gede could behave in a different manner?
No! Neither Gede lwa, not other lwa IN GENERAL, use vicious abuse to
personal enemies. In fact, this is the fastest way to mark a
possession as inauthentic.
> Is this "sick person" someone whom you chose to bring to Haiti with you?
>
> Is this "sick person" someone whom [as you said here earlier] you chose to
> perform a lave tet for?
That is what lave tets are for, they are for people whose heads are
dirty! If anyone needed on it is Kevin. Kevin is not an initiate, I
did not do divination to determine if I should or should not bring
Kevin to Haiti, since he was not going to enter the djevo and since
back then I did not realize how many people have agendas other than
the service of the lwa. I am much less trusting now, based on
experience.
But hey, if you want to pretend to serve a figment of someone's
imagination which, when they pretend to be "contacted" by it, behaves
uncharacteristically, hurls vicious abuse, is named
uncharacteristically, and so on, that's your problem.
Kevin Filan
Racine125 wrote:
> Now as to this phoney Gede lwa named "Harvey" -
>
> 1) Gede lwa are NOT served with pornography! Nowhere in all
> Haiti have I ever seen a Houngan or Mambo serve a Gede
> lwa in this way, in fact such an idea would be considered laughable
> at best and disrespectful at worst.
(a) Would you consider *Playboy* magazine c. 1967-78, or pin-ups by
Elvgren or Vargas, to be "pornography?" How about the 1963 "Urban
Nudist" Calendar? As I said before, the stuff Harvey likes to read is
pretty tame by most modern standards.
(b) Is it unheard of for friends and family of the departed to leave
books, magazines and other reading material on the grave in Haiti? (I
know this is done in Mexico). I don't think Harvey spent a lot of time
reading Shakespeare or Kardec over on this side: what makes you think
he's going to start now?
(c) Are nudie magazines of any sort widely available in Haiti? It could
well be that people don't give their ghedes nudie mags just because
there are none to be found. (You said in another post that pornography
is "widely available" in Haiti -- perhaps you could give us some
examples of what kind of "pornography" is available and where one can
find it in Haiti? (While you're at it: perhaps you can dig up an
example of some other Hougnans or Mambos "announcing" seats for sale in
their djevos?)
(d) Perhaps Racine would be so kind as to tell us exactly where in Haiti
La Sirene is served by singing "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean?"
> 2) Secondly, Gede lwa have very characteristic names, they
> don't have Christian given names like George or Harvey
> or John. Some characteristic names include "Gede Ti-Mopyon
> Deye LaLwa (La Croix in French)" which means Gede Little
> Crab Louse Behind the Cros; "Secretaire de la Croix", Secretary
> of the Cross; Gede Fatra de la Croix, Garbage Gede of
> the Cross. They all have the last name La Croix because
> their father is Baron La Croix.
Harvey isn't Harvey's full name. He has told me not to give out his
name without his permission. (As he puts it, "What, you write your
phone number on bathroom walls too? I don't want just anybody calling.")
He has specifically told me not to give *you* his name, because he
doesn't want to come and visit you. ("I don't want to visit the Grand
Canyon or the Fulton Street Fish Market either." -- Sorry, Cat, but I'm
just quoting the Dead Guy here... )
I do not know if it is or is not common practice for a house lwa or
house ghede to have a name which is only known by a few people and which
is kept secret otherwise. However, this is his request and I see no
reason not to honor it. He *has* given me permission to provide his
name to Cat Yronwode: he has heard of her extensive blues collection
(which apparently has garnered notice on both sides of the ground) and
is dying to stop by her place, pardon the pun. If Cat would like to
meet Harvey for herself, she need only say the word and I'll provide her
with everything she needs to meet Harvey, the Afterlife's Sultan of
Swank, for herself.
Oh, and before Racine's inevitable "not initiated, I am a Mambo, you
WILL respect mah authoritah" rant: I can also provide references from
several initiated Houngans and Mambos who believe Harvey is exactly what
he says he is. Of course, Racine will claim they are all inauthentic, or
Tonton Macoutes, or pornography addicts, or drunks, or wife-gropers.
> 3) Kevin has never undergone possession by this lwa and no
> one else has either, it is merely a figment of his imagination.
Racine is not in a position to know whether I or anyone else have or
have not undergone possession by this lwa. If she were, would it make a
difference? It should be abundantly clear by now that Racine's
definition of "authentic" and "inauthentic" changes to suit her
advantage at the moment, and that any possession she saw or heard about
would be "phony."
Do some Houngans and Mambos "work clear" i.e. work without undergoing
possession? I know that "hearing the spirit" (clairaudience) is quite
common in African-American folk magic and "spiritual" work.
> 4) Kevin at one point posted a quote from this so-called Gede
> in which he made really filthy references to my private parts.
> This is totally uncharacteristic - the Gede lwa, like Baron and
> Brigitte, can use profanity, but it is always used humorously.
> The Gedes never use vicious abuse to people, they never curse
> people out or try to say nasty things to hurt people.
Didn't one of Mambo Angela's Bawon Kriminel possessions refer to you as
"that fucking Mambo Racine Sans But?" And be fair: didn't you figure
Harvey was going to be insulted when you said he didn't exist? If I
said your La Sirene was a complete phony, I suspect she'd have some
unkind things to say about me!
(Assuming, of course, that your La Sirene WASN'T a complete phony, in
which case I guess she wouldn't have anything to say at all).
> 5) "Harvey" is apparently not served with the normal offerings
> made to a Gede lwa - rum with pepper, playing cards, a baton
> to dance with, old clothes, a battered top hat, sunglasses with
> one lens removed, etc.
Racine is incorrect... although Harvey prefers whiskey with hot peppers
to rum, he has all of the things she has described above.
> And so on... but hey, what can you expect from a man who thinks
> that intellectual discourse on the web consists of threatening
> those who disagree with him with anal rape with his "vein-choked
> love rod"? I tell you, that little Usenet search I did the other evening
> taught me a lot, mostly that Kevin is a sick person, much sicker
> than I had ever imagined.
Forgive me for pointing this out, but over the past couple days you've
spent an awful lot of time thinking about my vein-choked love rod.
While I'm proud of Little Elvis, I'm not sure he deserves the kind of
attention you've been giving him. This is getting close to John
Hinckley and Jodie Foster territory here... :)
Peace
Kevin Filan
--
Now in the graveyard of my secrets there's a hope buried beneath
All this talk of peace and righteousness as left me weary beyond belief
And there's this unwanted mistress in my bed late at night
She says "I know you're a criminal
-- you been on death row all your life."
- Bill Mallonee
Racine125
<mrha...@SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>Racine125 wrote:
>
>> Now as to this phoney Gede lwa named "Harvey" -
>>
>> 1) Gede lwa are NOT served with pornography! Nowhere in all
>> Haiti have I ever seen a Houngan or Mambo serve a Gede
>> lwa in this way, in fact such an idea would be considered laughable
>> at best and disrespectful at worst.
>
>(a) Would you consider *Playboy* magazine c. 1967-78, or pin-ups by
>Elvgren or Vargas, to be "pornography?" How about the 1963 "Urban
>Nudist" Calendar? As I said before, the stuff Harvey likes to read is
>pretty tame by most modern standards.
WHO CARES? Gede lwa are not served with pornography, skin
mags, pin ups, whatever! I am not ashamed to say that my
experience of that kind of trash is nowhere near as vast as yours
and therefore I have not seen the 1963 Urban Nudist calendar.
>(b) Is it unheard of for friends and family of the departed to leave
>books, magazines and other reading material on the grave in Haiti?
Kevin, your inexperience is showing. No, people do not
leave reading material on the graves of their family members,
in fact the vast majority of Haitians can not read.
>(c) Are nudie magazines of any sort widely available in Haiti? It could
>well be that people don't give their ghedes nudie mags just because
>there are none to be found.
Yes, they are. And since most Haitians can't read, at least they
can't claim they "only buy it for the articles". In a sexist culture where
women are devalued, pornography finds ready buyers.
> (You said in another post that pornography
>is "widely available" in Haiti -- perhaps you could give us some
>examples of what kind of "pornography" is available and where one can
>find it in Haiti?
Your inexperience is showing. Pornography in English, French
and Spanish can be found in the street markets of Port-au-Prince.
>(While you're at it: perhaps you can dig up an
>example of some other Hougnans or Mambos "announcing" seats for sale in
>their djevos?)
Your inexperience is showing. First of all we do not "sell seats in
the djevo". A Houngan or Mambo in Haiti who is going to do a kanzo
announces this through whatever means are customary in his or her
community - they might stand up at the beginning of a dance and say,
"My friends, you know, we will be having a kanzo next month...",
they might tell other Houngans and Mambos that they will be wanting
assistance and to send any candidates that might be interested their way
(although this is less fruitful because Houngans and Mambos compete
for initiates), they might sing a song in a Rara procession about the
upcoming "journey to the source" they will be making, and so on.
In the USA of course people use telephones and other means of
communication. Since my community is in part an online community
I use the Internet. And I repeat that the Houngans and Mambos I
work with in Haiti think this is a fabulous idea, and clamor for me to
make web pages for them and help them to find and maintain an inter-
national clientele!
>(d) Perhaps Racine would be so kind as to tell us exactly where in Haiti
>La Sirene is served by singing "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean?"
La Sirene is served by singing SONGS ABOUT THE SEA! I can't
believe you are so obtuse, I think you are being deliberately dis-
ingenuous. Most *American* Vodouisants in the *online* community
do not speak Creole and do not know Vodou songs for La Sirene,
therefore I present this as an alternative. My initiates are encouraged
to learn Creole and they are absolutely required to learn at least one
song for their met tet lwa while they are having initiation ceremonies,
more if possible, to learn at least a few verses of the Priye Ginen,
and so on.
>Harvey isn't Harvey's full name. He has told me not to give out his
>name without his permission.
That's nonsense. Gede lwa are never secretive about their names,
they are very in-your-face lwa who deliberately pronounce the
profanities in their name in long, drawling, nasal tones, like
children deliberately saying naughty words to vex the adults
present. I think you are making this stuff up as you go along.
>I do not know if it is or is not common practice for a house lwa or
>house ghede to have a name which is only known by a few people and which
>is kept secret otherwise.
No it is not, in fact it is completely UNCHARACTERISTIC of a
Gede lwa. Your inexperience will get you every time.
>Oh, and before Racine's inevitable "not initiated, I am a Mambo, you
>WILL respect mah authoritah" rant: I can also provide references from
>several initiated Houngans and Mambos who believe Harvey is exactly what
>he says he is.
BAH! These are the same folks who tell you that kanzos can be
done in the USA, that initiates need not respect their vows of sexual
abstinence, and so on.
Look, if you want to make up your own religion, fine! The United States
Constitution guarantees your right to do so. Just don't try to pass yourselves
off as practitioners of Haitian Vodou, because you are not! In fact
this silliness would be laughed out of any peristyle in Haiti.
>Racine is not in a position to know whether I or anyone else have or
>have not undergone possession by this lwa.
YOU said yourself in posts made on this forum that he does
not possess you, which makes sense since there is NO
SUCH LWA!
>It should be abundantly clear by now that Racine's
>definition of "authentic" and "inauthentic" changes to suit her
>advantage at the moment, and that any possession she saw or heard about
>would be "phony."
To the contrary! I am not representing *my* definition of authenticy
but rather upholding the principles of the Haitian Vodou religion,
which it has been my privilege to serve in the capacity of Mambo
asogwe for over a decade.
>Do some Houngans and Mambos "work clear" i.e. work without undergoing
>possession?
Yes, they do. But in that case they say quite plainly that *they* are
doing the work, not some imaginary entity.
>I know that "hearing the spirit" (clairaudience) is quite
>common in African-American folk magic and "spiritual" work.
No. Not in Haiti - the lwa communicate through possessions and
through dreams, no one "hears a voice" in the ether speaking
to them. And communications from lwa in dreams are usually
very specific to the dreamer. Once a person has such a dream,
they generally call that lwa into the head of ANOTHER PERSON,
so that the possession and any information yeilded by that possession
can be validated by the community.
>Didn't one of Mambo Angela's Bawon Kriminel possessions refer to you as
>"that fucking Mambo Racine Sans But?"
Yes indeed! And I was delighted - she totally revealed her inauthenticity
by doing that. Even Mambo "Mama Lola" rejected that so-called
possession as inauthentic, as did every other Houngan or Mambo
who ever heard about it. Baron, Gede, Maman Brigitte NEVER
use profanity to insult people, it is always used humorously to
make people laugh!
It's not Angela's fault, either - she went to Haiti, they scammed her good,
then she came back to the USA knowing very little. She knows
Baron uses profanity so when she fakes a possession she swears
at "f*cking Mambo Racine Sans Bout" and "*f*cking white people"
and so on.
You see, Kevin, if you would spend a little time in Haiti you would
have some experience on which to base your assertions. Here
are some typical examples of profanity used by Gede lwa:
Instead of the affirmation "Ayibobo!", Gedes often say "Ayi-bobotte",
"bobotte" being a not terribly vulgar expression for women's private
parts. They will refer to eyeglasses (linet) as clitoris (langyet),
to a truck stuck in traffic as a "big penis stuck in a tight vagina".
Here is a typical song sung by Gede lwa:
Si koko te gen dan li tap manje mayi griye
Se paske li pa gen dan ki fe l manje zozo kale.
If vagina had teeth it would eat roast corn,
It's because it has no teeth why it eats peeled penis.
Another:
Whoi Gede! Amwe Gede! Whoi Gede!
Gade tray mwen, langyet mwen dekale.
Whoi Gede! Help me Gede! Whoi Gede!
Look at my misery, my clitoris is rubbed raw.
Gedes NEVER say, "F*ck you, you f*cking white person,
oh, f*ck that person who my horse personally dislikes...", that
is a total mockery. In fact, no lwa ever takes up the personal
issues of the person it mounts, that is just about the fastest
way for a person to be jeered out of a peristyle.
> If I
>said your La Sirene was a complete phony, I suspect she'd have some
>unkind things to say about me!
NO! That is where you go wrong. I don't think anyone can
blame me for personally disliking you, but if La Sirene
was in my head and you came along she would call you
"petit mwen", my child, because She is the Mother of All. She
would pet you and bless you, she would wash you with her
streaming wet hair, she would offer you advice.
>lthough Harvey prefers whiskey with hot peppers
>to rum, he has all of the things she has described above.
You claim you have improved your fakery now!
>Forgive me for pointing this out, but over the past couple days you've
>spent an awful lot of time thinking about my vein-choked love rod.
I think that sort of language reveals a lot about your mentality.
In Haiti men are MEN, they have sex with women instead of
banging away at a keyboard threatening people with anal rape.
In fact, I would suggest that any interested party have a look at
the following URL's:
http://members.aol.com/racine125/vleson2.html - Vodou Lesson 2
on The VODOU Page, especially Part 2C, the Gede lwa.
http://members.aol.com/mambo125/sex01.html - Sex in Vodou
I would also suggest that interested parties read "The Divine
Horsemen" by Maya Deren, which gives an excellent account
of the nature of Gede lwa and documents an *authentic* Gede
possession.
Leslie Desmangles, in The Faces of the Gods, also gives
a reasonably good discussion of the nature of Gede as a
"witty clown" who is nevertheless deeply mystical and prophetic.
Kevin's (and Angela's) portrayals of Gede as pornography loving,
viciously abusive entities are nothing short of sacriligious! This
is not service to the lwa, it is vulgarly disrespectful culture-
vulturism and nothing more, and deserves to be rejected or ignored.
SHAME!