Divination systems
Denise Oliver-Velez
talked about here.
Lucumi/Ifa uses shells - dillogun, kola ikin .coconut, obi abata....
And palo uses chamalongos I believe
I would like to know how readings are done in Hoodoo, Vodoun and
Benin?
Denise
E. C. Ballard
Las Reglas de Congo (Palo) are Bantu in origin. You touched on one small
aspect of Palo divination in mentioning Chamalongos but it is by no
means the only form used within Palo.
As is too often the case, a number of assumptions have been made about
divination in Palo without really examing the issue in depth. Palo uses
about 6 methods of divination. With few exceptions most of them have
been wrongly attributed to borrowings from either European spiritualism
or Yoruban traditions. Neither is ultimately correct although in Cuba
all these systems have interacted and Yoruban and Spiritualist systems
bear as much influence from the Congo as the Congo does from them.
The unequivocally Kongolese systems of divination used in Palo are the
Vititi Mensu or Mpaca - the charged cowshorn with a mirror over the top.
Another system which is uniquely Congo is the use of firmas in
conjunction with gunpowder to confirm various issues.
Other forms, more often attributed to other sources are the divinatory
plate, the vase of water and the pendulum all of which are found in
Angola and Congo outside of European spheres of magical influence. The
Ncobos or shells are used in Palo and can be of 4, 7, 9, 16, 18, or 21.
While it has usually been assumed that this is a direct borrowing from
Ocha (and this assumption has also frequently been made by Paleros as
well) there is some good evidence to suggest otherwise. The most
overwhelming evidence is that shells of varying numbers are used in
divination in various parts of Bantu spoeaking Africa including West
Central Africa.
Lastly are Chamalongos. Because Chamalongos are usually made of cocnut
shell (without the meat) and are four in number they have evolved into
being used the same as the Biague or cocos are in Ocha including the use
of Yoruba words. However, cocos are not used for this purpose in Nigeria
and infact the Obi, which is what people usually associate with the
Biague or Coco in Cuba is usually five in number and not four. There are
chamalongos made out of tortoise shell pieces four in number (especially
favored by the Changani). In my view there is as much likelihood that
the system was borrowed from the Kongolese by the Lucumi as the other
way around.
Other systems, notably the bones and related systems such as the Angolan
and Congolese Ngombo ya Cisuka - the divination basket are if anything,
more complex than Ifa - having upwards of 200 pieces each of which gets
interpreted in relation to the other pieces near which it falls. Do the
math 200 squared is 40,000 options.
In Hoodoo there is mention of reading the bones and both in North
American Hoodoo and Caribbean Obeah, dice have been adopted for this
purpose.
I will leave off and hopefully others will contribute some more
interesting material.
Eoghan
LuckyHoodoo9
>Benin?
>
Old time Hoodoo practioners would use regular playing cards to divine though
now adays tarot is becoming popular. They also used pendulems. In Voudou I
think they cast bones, but don't quote me on that because I am not sure. I
have no idea what they do in Benin.
LuckyHoodoo9
Denise Oliver-Velez
<ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Bantu divinations systems are varied and complex. The systems used in
>Las Reglas de Congo (Palo) are Bantu in origin. You touched on one small
>aspect of Palo divination in mentioning Chamalongos but it is by no
>means the only form used within Palo.
>
>As is too often the case, a number of assumptions have been made about
>divination in Palo without really examing the issue in depth. Palo uses
>about 6 methods of divination. With few exceptions most of them have
>been wrongly attributed to borrowings from either European spiritualism
>or Yoruban traditions. Neither is ultimately correct although in Cuba
>all these systems have interacted and Yoruban and Spiritualist systems
>bear as much influence from the Congo as the Congo does from them.
>
>The unequivocally Kongolese systems of divination used in Palo are the
>Vititi Mensu or Mpaca - the charged cowshorn with a mirror over the top.
>Another system which is uniquely Congo is the use of firmas in
>conjunction with gunpowder to confirm various issues.
I've seen the Mpaca...are the firmas of Palo the same or similar to
veves in Vodoun?
>
>Other forms, more often attributed to other sources are the divinatory
>plate, the vase of water and the pendulum all of which are found in
>Angola and Congo outside of European spheres of magical influence. The
>Ncobos or shells are used in Palo and can be of 4, 7, 9, 16, 18, or 21.
>While it has usually been assumed that this is a direct borrowing from
>Ocha (and this assumption has also frequently been made by Paleros as
>well) there is some good evidence to suggest otherwise. The most
>overwhelming evidence is that shells of varying numbers are used in
>divination in various parts of Bantu spoeaking Africa including West
>Central Africa.
>
I had a reading with a palera and she used a plate. And candle wax.
It was a good reading.
>Lastly are Chamalongos. Because Chamalongos are usually made of cocnut
>shell (without the meat) and are four in number they have evolved into
>being used the same as the Biague or cocos are in Ocha including the use
>of Yoruba words. However, cocos are not used for this purpose in Nigeria
>and infact the Obi, which is what people usually associate with the
>Biague or Coco in Cuba is usually five in number and not four. There are
>chamalongos made out of tortoise shell pieces four in number (especially
>favored by the Changani). In my view there is as much likelihood that
>the system was borrowed from the Kongolese by the Lucumi as the other
>way around.
>
>Other systems, notably the bones and related systems such as the Angolan
>and Congolese Ngombo ya Cisuka - the divination basket are if anything,
>more complex than Ifa - having upwards of 200 pieces each of which gets
>interpreted in relation to the other pieces near which it falls. Do the
>math 200 squared is 40,000 options.
>
>In Hoodoo there is mention of reading the bones and both in North
>American Hoodoo and Caribbean Obeah, dice have been adopted for this
>purpose.
>
>I will leave off and hopefully others will contribute some more
>interesting material.
>
>Eoghan
Thank you so much for the in depth reply!
Denise
E. C. Ballard
Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> I've seen the Mpaca...are the firmas of Palo the same or similar to
> veves in Vodoun?
Similar. In every Kongo derived faith, extensive use is made of what
Robert F. Thompson calls "Cosmograms" line drawings used to invoke and
direct the deities are used. In Palo these are called "firmas". In
Umbanda, Candomble and Kimbanda they are called "Pontos Riscados" and in
Vodoun, also heavily influenced by Congo faiths, they are called "Veves"
or Vevers".
> I had a reading with a palera and she used a plate. And candle wax.
> It was a good reading.
The same plates are also employed in limpiezas.
Hope it helps.
Eoghan
Racine125
playing cards or Spanish decks.
I personally use Tarot cards, not the Voodoo Tarot although
I am not "against" it, I am just not that familiar with it. I see
correspondences between certain cards and certain lwa, for example:
The Fool - Legba
The Queen of Cups - La Sirene
The King of Swords - Ogoun (complete with butterflies on
the throne, which astonished me)
The High Priestess - Ayizan, tout mare!
...and so on.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
catherine yronwode
> I would like to know how readings are done in Hoodoo
Reading the bones was once common in Hoodoo, but i have not found anyone
to do it in some years -- i know of two styles -- special bones for
special meanings (e.g. using chicken bones, then the wing bone for
travel, the breast bone for love, and so forth) and using unspecificed
possum bones wherein the pattern of the bones was read -- but this
latter i have never seen, only heard described by an African-American
woman born in Tennesee whose grandfather did it, circa 1945-50, when he
was old and she was young. She also noted that he would only read the
possum bones outdoors, sitting on the dirt and throwing them into a
circle in a circle drawn in the dirt, never indoors. She phoned me to
see of i knew enough about reading possum bones to refresh her childhood
memories of her grandfather, but i did not, alas.
As Eoghan noted, dice are commonly used in hoodoo readings, according to
one of the 19th century Frnech systems popularized in pamphlets. .
As LuckyHoodoo9 noted, some folks also use regular playing cards
according to the Madame Le Normand or other 19th century system.
And LuckyHoodoo9 also noted that some folks use pendulums -- but to be
more exact, the pendulums in hoodoo are not like New Age pendulums, they
are usually a Queen Elizabeth Root on a red thread -- and very often
they are used on oneself, not when getting a reading from a root doctor.
I also had readings done with coffee-grounds when i was young --
similar to tea leaves, but the hoodoo folks i knew preferred coffee
grounds and i was too dumb to ask why, so it amy have just been a local
thing.
In addition, in hoodoo, there are gifted readers who are second-sighted
and may not use ANY visible tool. They may ask to touch your hand,
though, or an artcile belonging to an absent person they are reading
for.
I have some material about reading on the web -- and about the Black
Gypsy fortune tellers, too -- at
http://www.luckymojo.com/blackgypsies.html
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily.
Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html
Send e-mail with your street address to cata...@luckymojo.com
and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets
Copyright (c) 2000 catherine yronwode. All rights reserved.
E. C. Ballard
<c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
>
> > I would like to know how readings are done in Hoodoo
>
> Reading the bones was once common in Hoodoo, but i have not found anyone
> to do it in some years -- i know of two styles -- special bones for
> special meanings (e.g. using chicken bones, then the wing bone for
> travel, the breast bone for love, and so forth) and using unspecificed
> possum bones wherein the pattern of the bones was read -- but this
> latter i have never seen, only heard described by an African-American
> woman born in Tennesee whose grandfather did it, circa 1945-50, when he
> was old and she was young. She also noted that he would only read the
> possum bones outdoors, sitting on the dirt and throwing them into a
> circle in a circle drawn in the dirt, never indoors. She phoned me to
> see of i knew enough about reading possum bones to refresh her childhood
> memories of her grandfather, but i did not, alas.
I am espeiclaly interested in this latter example and any details you can
offer o the description and also the person who told you of it. This is
clearly the common bantu method of reading bones practiced widely in local
variants throughout most of Southern Africa (as distinct from just South
Africa) where ever bantu culture exists.
Your description is a remarkably accurate description of what is still
done today in many Bantu cultures and it is most probable that her father
brought this with him from Africa. It should be noted that the use of
possum bones was an American innovation. In most cultures where bones are
read several different types of animals are used intentionally within one
set of bones.
The bones actually used would be the astragals - the knuckle bones. They
might be marked with dots or Xs or left unmarked. Keeping that in mind, it
should be obvious that there was a small leap to make from the old style
bones to using dice.
Eoghan
--
+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o
E. C. Ballard
Debajo del Laurel yo tengo mi confianza
Denise Oliver-Velez
<c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
>Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
>
>> I would like to know how readings are done in Hoodoo
>
Thanks for the detailed response.
>Reading the bones was once common in Hoodoo, but i have not found anyone
>to do it in some years -- i know of two styles -- special bones for
>special meanings (e.g. using chicken bones, then the wing bone for
>travel, the breast bone for love, and so forth) and using unspecificed
>possum bones wherein the pattern of the bones was read -- but this
>latter i have never seen, only heard described by an African-American
>woman born in Tennesee whose grandfather did it, circa 1945-50, when he
>was old and she was young. She also noted that he would only read the
>possum bones outdoors, sitting on the dirt and throwing them into a
>circle in a circle drawn in the dirt, never indoors. She phoned me to
>see of i knew enough about reading possum bones to refresh her childhood
>memories of her grandfather, but i did not, alas.
>
Would possum bones have been used because of the "trickster" nature
attributed to possums?
>As Eoghan noted, dice are commonly used in hoodoo readings, according to
>one of the 19th century Frnech systems popularized in pamphlets. .
>
>As LuckyHoodoo9 noted, some folks also use regular playing cards
>according to the Madame Le Normand or other 19th century system.
>
>And LuckyHoodoo9 also noted that some folks use pendulums -- but to be
>more exact, the pendulums in hoodoo are not like New Age pendulums, they
>are usually a Queen Elizabeth Root on a red thread -- and very often
>they are used on oneself, not when getting a reading from a root doctor.
>
>I also had readings done with coffee-grounds when i was young --
>similar to tea leaves, but the hoodoo folks i knew preferred coffee
>grounds and i was too dumb to ask why, so it amy have just been a local
>thing.
>
A number of the methods you and LuckyHoodoo mention are also used by
espiritistas - cards (both regular and the Spanish deck, and sometimes
tarot) and I have seen my godmother do a reading with the small Cuban
coffee cup - not grounds but the pattern left in the cup after
drinking made by the thick sugary residue. A glass of water, or a
candle can be used - have never seen a pendulum reading.
>In addition, in hoodoo, there are gifted readers who are second-sighted
>and may not use ANY visible tool. They may ask to touch your hand,
>though, or an artcile belonging to an absent person they are reading
>for.
>
In espiritismo "second sght" would be attributed to actually having a
second person (entity - muerto) doing the seeing for you - so that
people in a misa espiritual communicate with or actually "pass" (are
mounted with) a muerto who then reads or gives "evidencias" to the
inquirer, or for anyone at that misa.
And then there are those who can read or interpret ones dreams.
>I have some material about reading on the web -- and about the Black
>Gypsy fortune tellers, too -- at
> http://www.luckymojo.com/blackgypsies.html
>
am going off to read it now (grin)
Denise
