Who Can "Handle" Vodou?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
assertion that he believes that there are some people who can not "handle the
Vodou". Apparently he considers himself someone who can "handle the Vodou",
and thus he considers himself superior to those who can not "handle the Vodou".
This makes about as much sense as rejecting people who want to attend a
Christian service, or become confirmed in a Christian denomination, because
they can not "handle the Christ"! It's absurd, and it's faintly obscene.
The vast majority of Haiti's eight million people are Vodouisants. I don't see
any reason to believe that any of them can not "handle the Vodou". Since the
development of Voodoo in the USA, surely hundreds of thousands of people,
black, white and mulatto, have particpated. I see no reason to believe that
any of those individuals could not "handle the Vodou".
If a person participates in Vodou, they will reap spiritual and sometimes
material rewards. If a person unknowingly performs a ceremony incorrectly, it
won't be harmful, just ineffective. As they learn to serve correctly, their
service becomes more effective, that's all.
If anyone "can't handle the Vodou", I think it would be a person who fails to
observe their vows of abstinence (initiates must obtain from sex for 41 days
after the end of their kanzo), or a person who refuses to obey the rules of the
tradition, including respecting their initiatory parents and siblings.
Based on that definition, I would suggest that one person who "can't handle the
Vodou" is Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf! His disrespect for his
initiators and his kanzo brothers has been evinced many times on this and other
forums. He has among his cronies a woman who broke her vows of abstinence (not
to mention her wedding vows!) the very night she came out of the djevo, but he
claims that this does not invalidate her initiation - an assertion which is in
direct opposition to what the Vodou tradition says.
Moellendorf has suffered the consequences - he has no verifiable initiatory
lineage, he has alienated a whole string of Houngans, Mambos and other
practitioners in Haiti and in New Orleans, and now must surround himself with
people of questionable character, open the "Mistake" mini-botanica (with a
dazzling start-up budget of a few hundred dollars) in a very undesirable
neighborhood, and attempt to undermine legitimate, successful practitioners by
making slanderous posts on closed lists frequented by few people other than his
own dubious "crew".
Other than that, I don't see any reason to portray Vodou as dangerous - I would
say rather that it is a powerful positive force. I don't see any reason to
tell people that they can't "handle the Vodou", since the tradition is open to
all.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
who'syamama
when you initiate threads of this sort.
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020605091208...@mb-cp.aol.com...
Sean Williams
says...
>If anyone "can't handle the Vodou", I think it would be a person who fails to
>observe their vows of abstinence (initiates must obtain from sex for 41 days
>after the end of their kanzo), or a person who refuses to obey the rules of the
>tradition, including respecting their initiatory parents and siblings.
Here is a compilation of quotes, (from the google archives) Racine has made in
regards to her initiatory children and how well they "handle the Vodou" she
gives them:
"they spoil their kanzos, smash their pot tets, get drunk and leave bar bills,
have sex during the 41 day period of abstinence,"
"I pay my bar bills. Those who skip out on their bar bills look like
fools, to be sure."
"if you come back to clean rooms after the kanzo, then
trash your rooms and leave them strewn with used condoms, obviously
you broke the rules. If you go to some little bokor's house because
you want to learn how to kill people and make zombis, and that little
bokor takes your kolye and ruins your kanzo......"
Hmmm....Bokor's,Bars,smashing pottery,getting drunk and trashing your room with
used condoms....Gotta love that Racine Vodou, that she can give to you!
JUST REMEMBER TO ***P-A-Y*** YOUR BAR BILL!
Regards,
Sean
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Vodou" to be irrelevant.
In the past, Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf has repeatedly characterized
Vodou, and the lwa of the Vodou religion, as being dangerous, risky, hazardous,
with dire consequences for errors of ceremonial service.
He does this, in my view, in an attempt to be seen as bold and heroic.
This is a disservice to the Vodou, which far from being hazardous, is
nurturing, supportive and sustaining.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>Here is a compilation of quotes, (from the google archives) Racine has made
>in
>regards to her initiatory children and how well they "handle the Vodou" she
>gives them:
>
>"they spoil their kanzos, smash their pot tets, get drunk and leave bar
>bills,
>have sex during the 41 day period of abstinence,"
This pertains to a very few specific individuals, who were notable as
EXCEPTIONS to the general nature of people coming to kanzo ceremonies.
Furthermore, this does not indicate that these individuals could not "handle
the Vodou" - Vodou didn't do anything bad to them, they couldn't handle their
liquor or they couldn't or wouldn't control their own behavior, that's all.
The VAST MAJORITY of people participating in kanzo ceremonies with the Roots
Without End Society are highly motivated and sincere people. For example,
Mambo Tamara, who has made a few posts here, described her experience and
portrayed it as a very positive one.
On the other hand, there are individuals such as Kevin, who was given not the
kanzo but rather a lave tet ceremony, reported benefits, foresaw that he might
backslide into Satanism and pornography, and then... DID backslide. That does
not mean that Kevin "can't handle the Vodou" either, it means that he chose to
blow it.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian proverb
Sean Williams
says...
>On the other hand, there are individuals such as Kevin, who was given not the
>kanzo but rather a lave tet ceremony, reported benefits, foresaw that he might
>backslide into Satanism and pornography, and then... DID backslide. That does
>not mean that Kevin "can't handle the Vodou" either, it means that he chose to
>blow it.
Because Kevin,as he has stated in the past,has certain opinions about you
based on his experiences with you in Haiti,such as these:
*****************
1) Kathy Grey has major psychological problems, which manifest
in the forms of constant substance abuse, ranting temper tantrums
and physical attacks upon her "children," and delusional behavior
which at times suggests incipient schizophrenia.
2) Before our group turned our backs on her as one, Kathy ripped
one of us off for over $1,000 and tried to rip off another for
$357. (I was the one she tried to rip off for $357).
3) Kathy did not "give Fanawhile the asson;" she received her
asson at the same time as Fanawhile did, and from the same
person, Houngan Danise David of Jacmel. Before receiving her
asson, Kathy was initiated si pwen in Gonlaves; her house
cast her out because of her mental instability and ill behavior.
The fact that Kathy feels necessary to say she "retook the asson"
is telling: you do not "retake" your asson in Vodoun, any more
than you "recrown" your head in Santeria. Simply put, Kathy is
misstating her initiatory status.
4) Kathy is a person of bad character. (I am aware of exactly
how serious that charge is in the Afro-Caribbean religions.
I stand by it and repeat it again). I know Fanawhile and I
know the people who brought her into Santeria; they are people
of good character. So are the people I went to Haiti with in
August, 1999 ... the very people who have turned their backs
on Racine Sans But and left her to her own downfall.
There are others on this group who know I speak truth. If
they feel the need, they can come forward. As for myself, I
know what I say. And I sign my name to it.... <snip>
*****************
STATEMENTS,NOT GOOD FOR BUSINESS NO LESS!*******
*****************
Everyone is to assume,he "blew it"? I give the man his props, for running
from a "Snake-oil Selling Huckster Woman" like you! Something is really
amiss, when a so called "Mambo" goes into a hard sell about additional
Rainbow baths after giving someone a lave tet,ala the classic "Gypsy Curse
Removal" ruse.
I don't doubt, that what Kevin felt after his lave tet, was spiritual,
deeply powerful,refreshing and fulfilling,no matter who may, or may not have
assisted in it.
I know I felt out of this world,when I received my Illekes,a ceremony akin
to a lave tet,sort of. It was also ascertained,by Odu, that I needed additional
baths to cleanse me of some negative baggage. However,my Padrino sent me two
pounds of soap-balls at no charge. These soap-balls,cannot be made from a
recipe, in the back of a "Luisa Teish " book either. Had he told me I needed
to pay him an additional $357.00 for them, I would have questioned his
motives.
By Kevin's account,he says he did in fact question you regarding the
additional expense for the baths,after he discovered the recipe for them
in a book that is commonly available. He then stated he saw no need in paying
you to send them to him,if he could just follow that recipe and perform
the baths without your assistance. He further states,that you went on to scream
at him and belittle him, for doing so!
All in all, if I only netted $13,000 a year from my business practice, I guess
I might be prone to try and take advantage of an outsider too,for profit and
power, to aid my community. A tactic you have endorsed in the past and bragged
about openly online! However, I would fully expect my "mark" to not keep his
mouth shut,so in turn, I would devise some way to discredit him in any way I
could.Statements sprinkled with "Satanism" and "Pornography" would be
effective tools in doing so,not to mention, accusations of "Anal Rape"!
Jeez...$13,000 a year? No wonder you herd cow's and work in a rice field!
I too, would smoke plenty of reefer to escape that reality! At least you
have shown, you have your priorities in line...as you have previously stated,
......"you pay your Bar Bills!"
"Cheers",
Sean
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>1) Kathy Grey has major psychological problems, which manifest
>in the forms of constant substance abuse, ranting temper tantrums
>and physical attacks upon her "children," and delusional behavior
>which at times suggests incipient schizophrenia.
LOL! That's a good one. I smoke weed, so does Mark Alexander "Aboudja"
Moellendorf, so do millions of people. Big deal. I have attacked no one - if
I had, why didn't they press charges in Haiti?
2) Before our group turned our backs on her as one, Kathy ripped
>one of us off for over $1,000 and tried to rip off another for
>$357. (I was the one she tried to rip off for $357).
That's another God-damned lie. Kevin has accused me of "ripping off" a
Babalawo in the group after the kanzo, but the fact is that this Babalawo was
very happy with what he got from me. Far from turning his back on me, when he
returned to the USA we talked on the phone. I mentioned that my car was broken
down, and he, out of the goodness of his heart, gave me a gift of $300.
Both the Babalawo and I recommended that Kevin have further cleansing work. I
suggested a series of seven baths, at $51 each. I even offered to come to New
York City, free of charge, and assist Kevin to prepare the first bath, so he
would know how to do it properly. I told him that he could take them one by
one over a period of time, as he felt ready.
There is NOTHING about this that consitutes a rip-off, and recycling these
tired old lies is just another attempt to slam and slander me, my house and my
happy, productive initiates.
>
>3) Kathy did not "give Fanawhile the asson;" she received her
>asson at the same time as Fanawhile did, and from the same
>person, Houngan Danise David of Jacmel. Before receiving her
>asson, Kathy was initiated si pwen in Gonlaves; her house
>cast her out because of her mental instability and ill behavior.
More lies - I have never said I gave Jennifer Clarissa Dunap "Iya Oshuntoki"
"Mambo Dunni" Thompson the asson. I was her mama kanzo, Houngan Danise was her
papa kanzo AND her papa asson.
There is no such place as "Gonlaves". I received my first asson from Houngan
Luc Gedeon in Grand Goave, and I remained a happy initiate until his death in
1994, when his house, deprived of his charismatic presence, disbanded. I
remain deeply grateful to Houngan Luc, and that is why his photo is on the home
page of The VODOU Page, and his biography and the biography of one of his lwa
is also part of The VODOU Page website.
>The fact that Kathy feels necessary to say she "retook the asson"
>is telling: you do not "retake" your asson in Vodoun, any more
>than you "recrown" your head in Santeria.
That is not true either. Right down the street from me, Houngan Somerville has
two assons, he took one at one house and another at another house. I know
quite a few people who had two asogwe initiations, it's not hugely common but
it isn't rare.
If Kevin, oh excuse me Sean, knew what he was talking about he would know this.
Since he is NOT an initiate, has NOT been to Haiti, and does NOT know me, his
comments here are clearly nothing but more slamming and slander.
>4) Kathy is a person of bad character. (I am aware of exactly
>how serious that charge is in the Afro-Caribbean religions.
>I stand by it and repeat it again). I know Fanawhile and I
>know the people who brought her into Santeria; they are people
>of good character.
HAHAHAHA!
Yeah, right - Mambo Dunni/Fanawhile, the woman who concocted a scheme to ask
for "charity for Haitians", and then pocket the money and use it to pay for her
own kanzo! I have archived those IM's, and I can prove what I am saying. This
is also the woman who committed adultery on a husband she had only been married
to for a matter of months, the same woman who slept with her initiatory Houngan
in the hopes of getting a better price for her mother to take the asson - and
when that didn't work, after a series of whining and begging phone calls from
her to Danise in Haiti (I know, because I translated on a three-way hookup),
she tried to blackmail him, claiming she would return to Haiti and charge him
with rape! Yeah, that's some real good character. Now her mother is passing
herself off as a Mambo asogwe too - anything for a buck. I've had clients come
to Haiti telling me how horribly they were ripped off by those two, and I don't
see why those clients would lie to me.
I am not going to name the things about myself that I think illustrate "good
character", but I will say one thing - both Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Mambo
Dunni" Thompson and Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf have assons for one
reason and one reason only - I insisted that Houngan Danise give it to them,
because they had paid, and if he didn't, I would. I told him how it was done
to prove that I could, and thus he gave them their assons. He also told them
to their faces, "If Mambo Racine was not already asogwe, not one of you would
get more than hounsi kanzo". They won't admit to that, I bet.
>Everyone is to assume,he "blew it"?
If you mean Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf, YES! He has no verifiable
initiatory lineage, while I have one asson from Luc Gedeon, who was a very
respected man, former Mayor of his town, etc.; and another that came to me
through Danise David, which he in turn got from Houngan Marc Elie Desir, the
initiatory head of more than three quarters of the Houngans, Mambos and hounsis
in Jacmel - either he initiated them, or he initiated the person who initiated
them.
>Something is really
>amiss, when a so called "Mambo" goes into a hard sell about additional
>Rainbow baths after giving someone a lave tet,ala the classic "Gypsy Curse
>Removal" ruse.
We do not do "Gypsy Curse Removals". Kevin is deeply damaged by Satanism,
pornography, sexual perversions, and his career of service to evil, as evinced
by his continual lying, his undeniable hatred, his vicious nature.
>I don't doubt, that what Kevin felt after his lave tet, was spiritual,
>deeply powerful,refreshing and fulfilling,no matter who may, or may not have
>assisted in it.
I should put that video online - You would see Kevin saying that we had
"saved his life"! You would see him begging us to come and correct him if he
went back to Satanism and pornography and all those other perversions. Kevin
has a copy, I made one and gave it to him free of charge, and if he wants to
claim that I am lying, I dare him to send it to you so you can see it.
>Jeez...$13,000 a year? No wonder you herd cow's and work in a rice field!
There is no apostrophe in "cows", it is plural and not possessive.
I do not have cows, I have six horses. I do not work in a rice field, there is
no rice cultivation in Jacmel.
>I too, would smoke plenty of reefer to escape that reality!
You smoke weed to escape reality? How sad.
>At least you
>have shown, you have your priorities in line...as you have previously stated,
>......"you pay your Bar Bills!"
It's not hard, if I drink three beers in a week, it's a big week.
I'm not surprised that you keep recycling the same tired lies, I am not
surprised that you continue hammering away at your little slander campaign - as
my Episcopal minister pointed out to me metaphorically one day, "The children
of darkness hate the light".
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020605151850...@mb-fq.aol.com...
> I do not consider my discussion under the thread titled "Who Can
> 'Handle' Vodou" to be irrelevant.
What is a personality disorder?
[from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th
edition, 1994, commonly referred to as DSM-IV, of the American
Psychiatric Association. European countries use the diagnostic
criteria of the World Health Organization.]
An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates
markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture, is
pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early
adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth
Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pg. 661) describes
Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of
grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack
of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of
contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
* has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior
without commensurate achievements);
* is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,
brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;
* believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only
be understood by, or should associate with, other special or
high-status people (or institutions);
* requires excessive admiration;
* has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations
of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or
her expectations;
* is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of
others to achieve his or her own ends;
* lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the
feelings and needs of others;
* is often envious of others or believes that others are
envious of him or her;
* shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
* * * * *
Not much more to say, really...
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPP65E6rZ1tz+tBxdEQL2IACbBeXYvqdipllxKztMNjhsQ8VzwRcAnj6C
zCVjjhoosyqh3Vy/PKZYQMm+
=9cpn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Sean Williams
says...
>
>LOL! That's a good one. I smoke weed, so does Mark Alexander "Aboudja"
>Moellendorf, so do millions of people. Big deal. I have attacked no one - if
>I had, why didn't they press charges in Haiti?
Racine, I believe you when you brag that you smoke weed! It's either
delerium from too much ganja or mental problems that keep you babbeling
on and on about "Aboudja",when he is not even the subject of the post!
Perhaps his proverbial children,that may have visted you, are more agile
and stronger than your "crippled brood"! That appears to be the case by
all the obsessive remarks you make.
>That's another God-damned lie. Kevin has accused me of "ripping off" a
>Babalawo in the group after the kanzo, but the fact is that this Babalawo was
>very happy with what he got from me. Far from turning his back on me, when he
>returned to the USA we talked on the phone. I mentioned that my car was broken
>down, and he, out of the goodness of his heart, gave me a gift of $300.
Ok.... **ONE PERSON** kept in contact with you after the sorrid affair?
How many were there originally? Out that many people,how many are still
on good terms with you?
>Both the Babalawo and I recommended that Kevin have further cleansing work. I
>suggested a series of seven baths, at $51 each. I even offered to come to New
>York City, free of charge, and assist Kevin to prepare the first bath, so he
>would know how to do it properly. I told him that he could take them one by
>one over a period of time, as he felt ready.
In an attempt to assure yourself of a steady stream of income!
I guess $51.00 here and there, at your disposal in Haiti,would
keep you and yours in weed and afford you with the ability to
pay a Bar Bill...huh?
>There is NOTHING about this that consitutes a rip-off, and recycling these
>tired old lies is just another attempt to slam and slander me, my house and my
>happy, productive initiates.
Well,youre right in a sense. Kevin didnt fall for it, evidently!
But the fact remains,*YOU ATTEMPTED TO RIP HIM OFF*! If I were
bringing in a whopping $13,000 a year from my business,I'd
be on the lookout for a rube too,you just mistook the wrong
person as a rube! Don't get so bent out of shape,you know what
they say,"Don't hate the player,hate the game"..........right?
>If Kevin, oh excuse me Sean, knew what he was talking about he would know this.
> Since he is NOT an initiate, has NOT been to Haiti, and does NOT know me, his
>comments here are clearly nothing but more slamming and slander.
Are you Mr. Magoo's, long lost love child?
Or, are you just, overwhelmingly myopic? I didnt type those statements,
I only cut & pasted them from the google archives into my post! They were
authored by Kevin Filan.
WHO WAS IN HAITI WITH YOU AND HAS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BEHAVIOR,
WHICH INCIDENTLY,HE HAS RELAYED ONLINE AND MADE HIS EXPERIENCE AVAILABLE
FOR ANYONE TO READ!
>Yeah, right - Mambo Dunni/Fanawhile, the woman who concocted a scheme to ask
>for "charity for Haitians", and then pocket the money and use it to pay for her
>own kanzo!
A woman, to whose defense you came,in order to protect your projected and
needed income for that year. In spite of the fact, that Lukumi Elders were
fussing about the fact that she had already been crowned and shouldnt have her
head touched in the manner necessary during a kanzo! I believe you still have
a page on your site detaling this.
You arent fooling anyone!Your real beef with Mambo Dunni and Houngan Aboudja
revolves around the fact,that neither one of them will acknowledge you as
their Spiritual Mama. Something that makes perfect sense in light of the fact
that you took the asson at exactly the same time as they did!
You can argue symantics all day long,till youre blue in the face.
(IE: RE-KOUCHED,RE-TOOK etc.)
Based on their account of events,its evident you want to silence them,
or cast doubt upon their credibility! Because their account of events,
suggest you were mis-representing your initiatory grade,before you
took the asson,right along side them!
>>I have archived those IM's, and I can prove what I am saying. <<
And you have been bluffing with that statement,since...when...1999?
PUH-LEASE! If you had proof,you would have presented it by now!
This is just more hot air coming out of???... one of your holes....
I'd take a stab and bet, youre talking out of your ass...*AS USUAL*!
>This is also the woman who committed adultery on a husband she had only been >married to for a matter of months, the same woman who slept with her >initiatory Houngan in the hopes of getting a better price for her mother to >take the asson - <
Wait a minute... I AM CALLING A FOUL HERE! WHY ARE YOU,OF ALL PEOPLE, ATTACKING
A WOMANS SEXUALITY? Have you donned a bib? I'd like to be there to watch you eat
your very own words,right now... You pathetic hypocrite!
>when that didn't work, after a series of whining and begging phone calls from
>her<
Ohhhhh....but you can call a Babalawo to beg and whine, to have your car fixed?
Thats acceptable? Oh,thats right.....He gave you a gift!
Did you allow him to "coddle and cossette" you too,like your male associates
in New Orleans,before you demanded your gift?
Whats the going rate for an erm...uh... "coddle and cossette" session? LOL!
Better get your reservation in early for the NOLA yellow pages. I have a
friend that works for Bell South and he says the "Personal Escort" section
fills up rather quickly!
>three-way hookup)<
Just curious,do these...uhm...three ways,as you call them require an additional
fee? Or does this act come standard in the "coddle and cossette" sessions?
>>Everyone is to assume,he "blew it"?<<
>
>If you mean Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf, YES! He has no verifiable
>initiatory lineage,<
Once again...ABOUDJA WAS NOT MENTIONED! ANYWHERE IN THE POST!!!!!
Would it also be wrong to suspect you harbor ill feelings about Aboudja,
because he wouldnt let you,"blow" him?
>We do not do "Gypsy Curse Removals". Kevin is deeply damaged by Satanism,
>pornography, sexual perversions, and his career of service to evil, as evinced
>by his continual lying, his undeniable hatred, his vicious nature.
Kevin Filan comes across as a very intelligent person in all of his posts,
no matter what subject he is commenting on. Aside from the occasional
"Old Djab Crack" blurb,which I find rather amusing BTW,I see no evidence
of hate from him....towards anyone!
His nature is no more vicious than yours! He seems to get your goat,by beating
you,at your own game!
Again, I am surprised that you,of all people,would attack his sexuality!
Say Ahh...another helping of crow for the madame?
Why is it,that you insist on attacking his views/beliefs on Satanism?
There are interesting parallels between the beliefs of modern day
Satanists and those held by Vodou practitioners,many of which have appeared
in articles written by you!
IE: You hit me, I hit back harder. You take food from my mouth,I cause your
ass to become blocked. Why express love to those you deem unworthy of it,based
on their actions towards you? Sound familiar?
Also,Satanists and practitioners of many ATR's,hold the belief that you
do not have to repress your "fleshly desires"! How is Kevin,anymore perverse
than *YOU*? How would your Episcopalian Elders view you,if you told them about
"pulling a train" in New Orleans less than two weeks ago? Is this a
case of the pot,calling the kettle black?
>
>>I don't doubt, that what Kevin felt after his lave tet, was spiritual,
>>deeply powerful,refreshing and fulfilling,no matter who may, or may not have
>>assisted in it.
>
>I should put that video online - You would see Kevin saying that we had
>"saved his life"! You would see him begging us to come and correct him if he
>went back to Satanism and pornography and all those other perversions. Kevin
>has a copy, I made one and gave it to him free of charge, and if he wants to
>claim that I am lying, I dare him to send it to you so you can see it.
Well, I cried after I was cleansed during the Illeke ceremony. I felt somewhat
euphoric too. To be honest, I may have sounded like Homer Simpson babbling over
Duff Beer with whatever I said at that point. I cant even remember the words I
uttered,when I was allowed to speak. Thank G-d,Lukumi protocol forbids cameras
of any sort,for the most part!
In any event,having been filmed,for someone elses purposes...namely advertising
and HEAD HUNTING,would've cheapen the experience for me!
I wouldnt have taken kindly,to a ruthless vampire,exploiting my experience
with the divine, all in the name of S-E-L-F P-R-O-M-O-T-I-O-N!
In any event,the fact remains,that Kevin kicked your ass to the curb after
you attempted to sucker him out of $357.00. Then,spoke about the event on
the internet...(IE: Your M-A-R-K-E-T P-L-A-C-E) You cant have that,now can
you?
So,you attacked him with subjects that cause sensationalism. (Pornography,
Satanism and your old stand by...threats of "Anal Rape")
>I do not have cows, I have six horses. I do not work in a rice field, there is
>no rice cultivation in Jacmel.<
So...what cash crop are you involved in cultivating?
That you could also stuff,where a reported Djab is hiding?
That would also help you supplement your whopping $13,000 a year
windfall from your "Voodoo Vacation" packages? Something you are
self admittedly, fond of toking every now and again?
Hmmmmmm.........
>You smoke weed to escape reality? How sad.
No Racine, weed and booze are taboo for me,as dictated by Odu.
I think I have informed you of this before. Of all my prior vices,
Marlboro Lights and Mt. Dew, are the ones I havent given up. =o)
>I'm not surprised that you keep recycling the same tired lies, I am not
>surprised that you continue hammering away at your little slander campaign - as
>my Episcopal minister pointed out to me metaphorically one day, "The children
>of darkness hate the light".<
Interesting... I believe I have heard the same thing about Djab's!
As for me, I like the light fine enough!
Regards,
Sean
Ray
board, Sean mon neg'. Oh mais Sean là mon cher. Tu t'après faire ma
journée avec ta couillonade. Tu wois le gros sourire dessous ma figure
:-)? Mais ça c'est moi m'après rire parce que tu se ressemble le
paillasse et la plaisantrie d'la journée. Sorry for the Cajun French
folks.
Sincerely
Ray"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message news:<pRyL8.1340$Wm6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Sean Williams
>
>Wow Kevin you have just described someone I have come to know on this
>board, Sean mon neg'. Oh mais Sean là mon cher. Tu t'après faire ma
>journée avec ta couillonade. Tu wois le gros sourire dessous ma figure
>:-)? Mais ça c'est moi m'après rire parce que tu se ressemble le
>paillasse et la plaisantrie d'la journée. Sorry for the Cajun French
>folks.
>Sincerely
And you gather this from what? Your C.N.A training, from that run down
nursing home you were paid $4.25 an hour to wipe butts in? The same
training you use in your "Spiritual Counseling Practices"?
I think you left the All Saints Chapel of Faiths door open,better run back down
to Mail Boxes Etc. and close your box!
But, I would more than welcome your comments on your valid "Lukumi" initiations!
Regards,
Sean
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Ray" <rayowl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d1e6a33c.02060...@posting.google.com...
> Wow Kevin you have just described someone I have come to know on
> this board, Sean mon neg'.
Great. Perhaps you'd like to read something from one of your
soon-to-be Initiatory sisters ... Regina Scott of Muskegon, Michigan.
In case you haven't heard: Ms. Scott has a long history of mental
disorders, and has appeared on the Howard Stern show a couple of
times as "Laurence Fishburne's stalker". Ms. Grey took several
thousand dollars from Ms. Scott, then declared her a "Mambo Si Pwen."
(Yes, I know there's a tradition of paying for Vodou services.
There is also a tradition of "informed consent" ... and a tradition
of con artists ripping off people who are too ill to control their
own finances).
Here are some pearls of wisdom from Ms. Scott:
* * * * *
I am a zombie. when I say zombie I do not mean person brought back
from the dead \. I mean. Person who has no soul! Know will of my own.
My soul was taken from me and put in a bottle. By who I do not knwo.
I am sitting here thinking about what my father said to me before he
died. "Look at Joseph he was a slave?" did he turn me into a ZOMBIE,
and for what?
- From http://www.geocities.com/sssspptp/Zombie.html
* * * * *
Inflamitory statmenst. Here they are. I am willing to bet that
science will find out that god created Adam-Adam as well as Adam and
Eve. Just look at the ATOM. It is the basic building block of life.
It has a proton+ positive sybolized like a woman. an electron->
symbolized like a man and an neutron symbolized like a= neuatral
symbol that posses the energy forms of both the proton and the
electron. This is what runs the cell. It is the mind of life. Just
like science found out that the 3/5ths people were actually whole
people. I am not god. I do not wish to go against his word either. I
would just say that I ask prayer in this area of my life. GOD SPEAK
TO US ON THIS SUBJECT. That is my prayer.
- From http://www.geocities.com/sssspptp/Scandalous.html
* * * * *
If you want to read more Regina in her own words I've quoted one of
her posts to Delphi's "Roots Without End" forum (one which Ms. Grey
deleted) in this message:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GaoV7.11855%24Cw3.1397010%40newsr
ead2.prod.itd.earthlink.net&oe=UTF8&output=gplain
Ms. Grey has claimed that she did not know the extent of Ms. Scott's
illness until she got to Haiti. I presume that she corresponded with
Ms. Scott via email and phone before taking her money and laying her
down in the djevo... and yet was unable to tell that this woman had
serious mental issues. (More precisely: she decided to ignore
Regina's mental issues to make a buck).
Regina's parents had no idea that their daughter, a woman with a long
history of mental illness, was in Haiti for three weeks. (Ms. Grey
has claimed they were "physically and emotionally abusive;" I presume
she got this information in confidence from Regina, then chose to
broadcast it to Usenet when it suited her purposes. You may want to
keep this in mind before telling Ms. Grey anything which might be
used to embarrass you later.
Do you and your spirits consider this appropriate behavior from a
prospective initiatory parent?
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPP9Gn6rZ1tz+tBxdEQLDVACcCC60rEl/32Vmbk1aeOqavslY4mYAn1mq
CPfjljfXFcEXN0bZbYxN2TFR
=eiJn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
(I wrote:)
>> I do not consider my discussion under the thread titled "Who Can
>> 'Handle' Vodou" to be irrelevant.
>
>What is a personality disorder?
>
>An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates
>markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture
"who'syamama" is now the arbiter of my culture? LOL! He can't even spell
"irrelevant"!
>Not much more to say, really...
No, you have described Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf to a T.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>... that run down
>nursing home you were paid $4.25 an hour to wipe butts in?
Ummm... excuse me - Sean, is there something wrong with providing personal care
to sick and elderly people in a nursing home?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
rayowl...@aol.com (Ray) writes:
>Wow Kevin you have just described someone I have come to know on this
>board, Sean mon neg'. Oh mais Sean là mon cher. Tu t'après faire ma
>journée avec ta couillonade. Tu wois le gros sourire dessous ma figure
>:-)? Mais ça c'est moi m'après rire parce que tu se ressemble le
>paillasse et la plaisantrie d'la journée. Sorry for the Cajun French
Oh, I'm dyin' laffin'! Ray, you are too much - "couillonade", indeed! Oh,
"paillasse" too! Man, oh man, I'm rolling on the floor here. Do you think
Sean understands you? Oh well, frick 'im if he can't take a joke.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
people so much because it makes you uncomfortable, since you know you are
mentally ill as well?
Mambo Regina is MY DAUGHTER, I love her. She is beautiful, intelligent,
talented - she was a model, she started a career as a singer and put out one
demo tune, which I have heard and I thought it was very good. She learned her
asson gestures better than some other initiates, she did everything she was
required to do to become a Mambo sur point. Her condition improved, then she
went back to the USA and the same environment she left, and it stresses her.
She has an illness, Kevin - what do you think, people with mental illnesses
deserve to be hounded and tormented the way you are doing to her? You don't
give a damn about her.
Suppose, by your constantly raking her over the coals, that you precipitated a
worsening of her condition, would you be happy then? Would you feel powerful?
We did, and will continue to do, anything we can to help her. You have done
everything you can to hurt and embarrass her. Why? What do you get out of
ripping and tearing at this woman? You don't know her, she has never done
anything to you. Leave her alone.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian proverb
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>Racine, I believe you when you brag that you smoke weed!
I'm not "bragging", it's a simple statement of fact. Unlike your idol Mark
Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf, I don't do things and then say I didn't.
>Perhaps his proverbial children,that may have visted you, are more agile
>and stronger than your "crippled brood"!
He tries, sometimes, but he hasn't succeeded yet, and I doubt that he will. I
am still happy, healthy, prosperous, loved, protected, my peristyle hasn't
fallen down, my horses are still alive, my initiates in Haiti are waiting for
me with open arms, new initiates are coming from all over the United States for
this kanzo, plus some new Haitian initiates too - what's the problem? You hate
it that I am happy?
>>Both the Babalawo and I recommended that Kevin have further cleansing work.
>I
>>suggested a series of seven baths, at $51 each. ... I told him that he could
take them one by
>>one over a period of time, as he felt ready.
>
>In an attempt to assure yourself of a steady stream of income!
You think $51 is "a steady stream of income"? Look, both the Babalawo and I
took Kevin seriously, that was our mistake. Any work I did for him (and any
work this Babalawo did for him) would have been authentic, correct, and GOOD
for him. Of course we expect to be paid, we don't work for free.
>I guess $51.00 here and there, at your disposal in Haiti,would
>keep you and yours in weed and afford you with the ability to
>pay a Bar Bill...huh?
You must imagine that I go through a pound of herb a week and a case of beer
and a fifth of rum and a gallon of kleren! LOL!
>But the fact remains,*YOU ATTEMPTED TO RIP HIM OFF*!
You are a damn liar. Kevin paid for a lave tet, he got one. Both I and the
Babalawo in question recommended further cleansing work because of what Kevin
told us about his life of pornography, perversion and Satanism. That is not a
rip-off, that is the recommendation of two qualified clergy, a Mambo asogwe and
a Babalawo.
> I didnt type those statements,
>I only cut & pasted them from the google archives into my post! They were
>authored by Kevin Filan.
And you, who were not there, have no idea of the truth, and are not interested
in the truth, you are interested in a slam and scam and smear campaign and that
is all.
>>Yeah, right - Mambo Dunni/Fanawhile, the woman who concocted a scheme to ask
>>for "charity for Haitians", and then pocket the money and use it to pay for
>her
>>own kanzo!
>
>A woman, to whose defense you came,in order to protect your projected and
>needed income for that year.
What? Sean, I have a professional career and an independant income, even if I
never did one single kanzo for one single person I would live very nicely.
Houngans and Mambos are paid to work! What do you think, we should work for
free? Dunni presented herself as a sincere person who wanted to initiate in
Vodou. She got her kanzo, a correct, authentic kanzo - and thanks to my
efforts, she got her asson.
> In spite of the fact, that Lukumi Elders were
>fussing about the fact that she had already been crowned and shouldnt have
>her
>head touched in the manner necessary during a kanzo! I believe you still have
>a page on your site detaling this.
So... what? I am not sure what the rules are in Lukumi, Dunni is the one who
needs to have that straight with her elders, but I can tell you that I have
initiated many, many Santeria/Lukumi/Ifa initiates. They told me (again, I do
not know much about those branches of the Afro-Caribbean religious diaspora)
that they got readings from their madrina or padrino or Babalawo or whoever,
and were permitted to kanzo. Some were even told that they MUST kanzo!
>You arent fooling anyone!Your real beef with Mambo Dunni and Houngan Aboudja
>revolves around the fact,that neither one of them will acknowledge you as
>their Spiritual Mama.
At this point, I don't really care, it's their problem when they don't follow
the rules of the Vodou tradition. I did everything I promised to do for them
and more, my conscience is clear. I think that is why I am succeeding very
nicely and they are not.
My "real beef" is this constant campaign of slander and lies and defamation -
what do I care if they have the "Mistake Botanica"? I have never said that
Moellendorf is not a Houngan or Dunni is not a Mambo - they are what they are
precisely because I and Houngan Danise made them so, in August of 1999. Most
of the photos on Moellendorf's page come from that kanzo!
>that you took the asson at exactly the same time as they did!
If they wanted to tell the truth, they would tell you, "Houngan Danise told us
to our faces that if Mambo Racine were not already asogwe, neither of us would
have gotten more than hounsi kanzo."
>Because their account of events,
>suggest you were mis-representing your initiatory grade,before you
>took the asson,right along side them!
Yes, and we know how truthful they are, right? LOL!
>>>I have archived those IM's, and I can prove what I am saying. <<
>
>And you have been bluffing with that statement,since...when...1999?
>PUH-LEASE! If you had proof,you would have presented it by now!
I don't think it is considered appropriate to reprint private IM's and emails,
but if they want to ask me in writing to please reprint everything I have on
them, fine!
>This is just more hot air coming out of???... one of your holes....
What a refined and elegant person you are.
>I'd take a stab and bet, youre talking out of your ass...*AS USUAL*!
Do you think using filthy language is going to make you more credible?
>>This is also the woman who committed adultery on a husband she had only been
>>married to for a matter of months, the same woman who slept with her
>>initiatory Houngan in the hopes of getting a better price for her mother to
>>take the asson - <
>
>Wait a minute... I AM CALLING A FOUL HERE! WHY ARE YOU,OF ALL PEOPLE,
>ATTACKING
>A WOMANS SEXUALITY?
I don't care a damn about Dunni's sexuality, I am commenting on "character", an
issue you raised. Adultery is wrong in my book, sleeping with one's initiator
is NEVER recommended unless the person is already your domestic partner, and
then you wait your 41 days. Blackmailing a person with threats of accusations
of rape is just filthy, vile, disgusting.
>>when that didn't work, after a series of whining and begging phone calls
>from
>>her<
>
>Ohhhhh....but you can call a Babalawo to beg and whine, to have your car
>fixed?
>Thats acceptable?
Actually, I didn't ask that Babalawo for anyone, it was a very pleasant
surprise to receive $300 (NOT the $1000 Kevin has claimed), and I was very
grateful to him.
>Oh,thats right.....He gave you a gift!
I am beginning to think that no one has ever given you much of anything, and
that is why you are so jealous.
>Did you allow him to "coddle and cossette" you too,like your male associates
>in New Orleans
Ah, you ARE jealous. Everyone likes a little coddling, why not? I certainly
coddle my initiates all I can - this is not a sexual term, you know, Sean.
Merriam-Webster offers the following definitions:
coddle - to treat with extreme care
cosset - to pamper, to treat as a pet, a pet lamb
>Whats the going rate for an erm...uh... "coddle and cossette" session?
I don't have to pay people to be nice to me, Sean. I am getting the impression
that you are a very unhappy man.
>Just curious,do these...uhm...three ways,as you call them require an
>additional
>fee?
Who is using the term "three ways" except YOU? I wouldn't know - I guess you
have experience of prostitution, but I don't.
>Would it also be wrong to suspect you harbor ill feelings about Aboudja,
>because he wouldnt let you,"blow" him?
I am getting the impression that you are sexually obsessed.
>Kevin Filan comes across as a very intelligent person in all of his posts,
>no matter what subject he is commenting on. Aside from the occasional
>"Old Djab Crack" blurb,which I find rather amusing BTW,I see no evidence
>of hate from him....towards anyone!
Check the archives - threats of anal rape, threats of destruction of personal
property including cars...
>Why is it,that you insist on attacking his views/beliefs on Satanism?
KEVIN told US in Haiti that he felt that he had been damaged by pornography and
Satanism. I think so too! We are not made to serve Satan, we are made to
serve God.
>Also,Satanists and practitioners of many ATR's,hold the belief that you
>do not have to repress your "fleshly desires"!
Fine, I am sure rape victims and sexually abused children will be happy to hear
that their attackers don't have to "repress their fleshly desires". Man,
you're sick.
> How would your Episcopalian Elders view you,if you told them
>about
>"pulling a train" in New Orleans less than two weeks ago?
What is "pulling a train"?
>In any event,having been filmed,for someone elses purposes...namely
>advertising
>and HEAD HUNTING,would've cheapen the experience for me!
I didn't film Kevin for any purpose other than to provide him with a record of
the experience. The original Hi-8 tape is still right here, and only Kevin has
a copy.
>>I do not have cows, I have six horses. I do not work in a rice field, there
>is
>>no rice cultivation in Jacmel.<
>
>So...what cash crop are you involved in cultivating?
None. I don't have a garden, I only have animals - six horses, two goats, and
two pigs.
>That would also help you supplement your whopping $13,000 a year
>windfall from your "Voodoo Vacation" packages?
I do not offer "Voodoo Vacation packages". I offer correct and authentic
ceremonies in Haitian Vodou, training in Vodou and in Makaya-oriented magic,
participation in religious festivals like Fet Gede.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
who'syamama
faster than my fingers. I am, after all, only human.
It seems that anyone who does not just swallow your stories hook, line, and
sinker is subject to harassment. Nevermind that despite your constant bad
behavior and the general lack of courtesy you tend to display, I have been
courteous to you -- even when we have disagreed. This additional
foolishness does not in any way surprise me. A woman of your age and
supposed stature in the Vodou community should have a hair more maturity
than you display here on a daily basis. No wonder so many people pray that
the god of computers strikes your Internet connection dead.
Good day.
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020606082134...@mb-mc.aol.com...
Houngan Aboudja
>>>Ok.... **ONE PERSON** kept in contact with you after the sorrid
affair?
How many were there originally? Out that many people,how many are
still
on good terms with you?<<<
To answer YOUR question Sean (you will ALL please notice I am not
addressing the Flying Manbo here) is this...
Kanzo '99 wherein Kathy S. Grey received for the first time the ason
along with me & several others, no one speaks to her or will have
anything to do with her. This includes myself, Dunni, Joeanne, Anika,
Russell, & David, all of whom I speak to on a regular basis (save
David, as infrequent).
Kanzo Jan '00- of 7 people total, only Ross Heaven & David Golding
have anything to do with her.
Kanzo July '00- out of the entire group, NO ONE associates themselves
or will have anything to do with Kathy. This includes Michele,
Jonathan (who returned in January '01 & has since disassociated
himself), Eric, Jennifer, Jeff, & Dale... most of whom I keep in only
occasional contact (save Michele of course).
Kanzo Jan '01- I do not know these folks save for what I have been
told by the man who returned from the July '00 kanzo. As far as I
know, none of the Internationals maintain contact.
Kanzo July '01- Tamara Suida & the "Outcast of New Orleans" continue
to keep contact with Kathy.
Kanzo Jan '01- Drac Uber posts occasionally to Kathy's list on Yahoo!
Groups.
I am sure that most or all of the Haitians she has initiated speak to
her.
WOW! A whole WOPPING 5 people!!! That certainly speaks of a spiritual
parent of quality alright. It means that either A). She doesn't choose
her initiates with any yardstick but that which will fit in their
wallets, or B). She is a horrid individual not suited to call herself
an initiator or teacher... regardless of the slick promo persona she
maintains on-line.
What other options are there? Sean, can you think of another reason
besides one of these two that would cause all of Kathy's people to
flee the ship?
BTW: You'll notice that, regards the discussion of ceremonies being
done for "free" in Vodou, Kathy gives kanzo to Haitians for their
white clothes & if asogwe, for the additional cow. This is posted on
Kathy's website.
There is nothing wrong with this practice mind you... but this is
"what we mean" when we say we give initiations for "nothing" (i.e. no
hard currency), yet only for other barterable commodities.
Anyway, this should answer your original question, huh?
Houngan Aboudja
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
At this point, I feel that I must apologize for the recent discussions
of VODOU on the ORISHA a.r.o., but more than that, this sad continuous
bibble that keeps going on over who is the MOST competent and who is
the MOST proficient at VODOU practices is nothing more than the
continual posturing that has bored the majority of readers for more
than 4 years now. I would suggest that the initiator of this farce
find a new home.
Those who have not been stretched to say the least by this
progressively asinine argument has sat with the amusing eye, only
saying to themselves,…"I cannot believe these people"!
However in saying that, I must bring up for the last and final time
that on several occasions I have asked that Kathy S. Grey AKA Mambo
Racine Sans Bout, would leave me out of her discussions. She had
already tried to bait me in, but it did not work. Yet again she has
found the need to post my legal name here in a public forum and again
make slanderous remarks regarding myself and family members. As she
has found the need to make this error again with her judgment, I shall
now take the matter to the authorities who will handle this matter for
me.
Let me just say this to all readers, those who are personally
affiliated with me or not, the peristyle, societe, hounfor that I am
currently associated with, what will it matter in the morning if Kathy
has another post or personality? She will always and forever be a
vicious person who will constantly attack and find dirty little things
to talk about, validate her statements by malicious lies and shroud
them all in the cloud of deceit in an effort to make herself the hero
in her mind. Anyone who continues to sink that low by attempts to
humiliate, slander, and demoralize a person within the context of
religious righteousness will forever be lost and have NO clue as to
what it takes to be a happy, productive, whatever else she describes
herself as person, least of all mother of Africa.
Again Kathy's attempts to hush the swell of the crowd has turn into
more of a pathetic minstrel than ever.
Those of us who made a conscious decision to leave Kathy's clique did
so with GOOD reason. Those reasons however vast all based upon the
salient issues of trust, integrity, respect, honor, PERSONAL and
SPIRITUAL safety, competency, communication and least of all
character. That is the deal in a nut shell.
For whatever reasons, being them valid or mistakenly subscribed to,
there was, is and will continue to be breakdown in the "relationship"
with Kathy and those of us who left her. Issues with abandonment,
maybe? But what is there to go to if there was ever a consideration
of at least a cordial acquaintance? The example here shows not only
the point that I previously made, but also the advice that anyone with
a modicum of intelligence would suggest....."STAY AWAY FROM THAT
SORDID MESS"!
People who are on a spiritual path often times encounter many
teachers. (Even the ignorant have a lesson to teach.) Good or bad we
take those lessons, hopefully learn from them and MOVE ON. I can say
with a great degree of certainty that I learned and moved on. Even
when the lesson of forgiveness was on the agenda of spirit and I tried
to offer a hand of peace, once more and again it was met by ragged
dog's teeth and I did what anyone would do, leave the dog alone with
the dried bone.
Here we are 4 years later with the same old skeletal remains of events
long past gone, with the rehashing of the same old tired stories, "who
played the victim", "who was victimized the worse" and "who plays
victim best?" Does anyone really care? I mean face it, with all that
is going on in the world and with as little impact as these morbid
tales relate to the grander scheme of things, isn't it wise to just
drop it and find a new OCCUPATION?
What is at focus here is the ability to learn, practice, and teach a
religion that has been practiced in various forms throughout the
afro-carribean diaspora for centuries.
As it stands there are some commonalties that run throughout the Vodou
as it is presented through out the world, groping inaccuracies such as
Bawom LaKwa standing up, contorting, singing limericks that would make
even Moms Mabley blush are gross inaccuracies that should be
corrected. Those who have some insight share. At the same time, this
constant bantering of what CD was played and if my neighborhood is a
reflection of the social ills that plague an already torn community,
let alone society, has nothing to do with VODOU and definitely not
ORISHA.
My godbrother, the Babalawo, of whom Kathy spoke about is not in a
position to comment on any matters discussed here, however let the
record show that he also no longer chose or chooses to associate
himself with Racine without ends. His reasons and validation for this
are not for me to convey. Suffice to say though, they do not stray
from the aforementioned reasons that I have already shared.
Let there be clarity given on a few issues....those of us to took the
asson are not under any compuncture to stay, play, wait in line for
any other mambo or houngan who has an agenda that is motivated by
their own will, we paid in full for services rendered in cash. A
sister, brother or visiting houngan or mambo has NO right to come into
the officiant's djevo, least of all on their lakou and systematically
set up their own society. That is WRONG! As houngan David was the
officiate of the services, it was his lakou, his peristyle, his
society and he functioned as the Houngan for those services, it is to
him that respect is due. Had a Bode been sung...Houngan David, Mambo
Leanne, Mama Hounyo Bertha, Mambo Jacqueline and the elderly lady who
cared for us while in the djevo, would have been the ones we saluted,
even Kathy would have been under initiatory obligation to salute these
people. Why ... because we all went in the djevo together. Our heads
were all washed by the same hands. Those of us who took the asson,
went together. Further, no one to my knowledge went in owing Houngan
David and Mambo Leanne a dime. We went into the djevo freely and left
the same way. The end! The only time a person is permanently tied to
a djevo is when there is a bartering of services and the participant
is not able to provide all of the materials and/or finances that would
meet the price of the ceremony. This individual is then tied to the
community in a manner of service to the peristyle, society, i.e.
Make no mistake, when you kouche, there is the unspoken "lifetime"
membership to the community, society so to speak. Yet at the same
time there is NO obligation for anyone to do anything. It is a
courtesy that is extended based upon the strength of the kouche, the
fortune that one has afterwards, the accurate teaching, the phenomena
that is experienced, the hard labor that goes into the ceremony
(though everyone is paid) and the family ties/social acquaintances
that are established. If we were to take her literally, then every
manbo and houngan, hounsi and serviteur would forever be at one place
all of the time and for everything. There would be one society and
not the tens of thousands that are in existence today. It is expected
that those who receive asson would move on and establish their own
society. This is not an insult or a matter of disrespect, but more an
honor that the work was done correctly and the teachings so profoundly
correct that Guinea ensured growth and production.
More to the fact, the houngan who gave us the asson, be he good or bad
in any one persons opinion is irrelevant, despite the fact that he has
no way to defend himself or respond to any of the accusations forged
against him and the fact that he has been vilified with no recourse,
for the fact he gave us the asson, he is and will forever be
acknowledged in our salutes and priye.
Those of us who took the asson must acquiesce to the will and wishes
of Guinea and the ancestors. That is all!
Again, it is not uncommon for mambos and houngan to leave and start
their own peristyle and community. That is growth, that is Guinea.
It is the privilege, moreover duty to learn from ordained Vodou
clergy. It is not an uncommon practice for older mambos and houngan
to assist at the time of a Kouche or any ceremony. It is fool hearty
to think that just because you have been to a few ceremonies and speak
a language well that you are able to run ceremonies completely
unassisted or that you know everything. You must learn! Even the
those who are of Haitian descent and have lived in Haiti all their
lives and practice nothing other than Vodou, have teacherS.
When you have asson and the person who gave you asson passes away, it
is not necessary to kouche again to gain a living papa asson or mama
asson. (Please defer to asson signals, passes and conversations.)
You establish ties to other societies, if you are personable enough
and work from that point on. The only time that a person would
rekouche is to obtain an additional grade of initiation, if the kouche
was not complete or correct, they never had the asson, or if the
person was so dissatisfied where they were that they are willing to
suffer through the djevo again to rid themselves of the old ties and
reestablish new ones.
Well, here we are....Houngan Aboudja did that. Bravo!!!!!!!! Now as
opposed to dealing with truth, we have a person who states that the
man did not go through the djevo again and that the living, breathing,
well respected Manbo who performed the ceremonies is not a manbo. Not
only this but states these additional claims....he never went to Haiti
after 1999, they spoke to the person who was claimed to have taken him
and they deny even knowing him and/or performing such a ceremony, then
in the same key stroke explains away the entire kouche by saying that
they same living, breathing, well respected manbo to which is being
referred here is a figment of imagination. Lord Jesus! Look, the sun
will come out tomorrow, let it alone.
There have been 3 major ceremonies that took place in New Orleans.
All of these services were made open. Not once did the opposing party
here come to, pass by, or even think about visiting the service, what
happened instead is the nonsense that is displayed here. At two of
the major ceremonies there was security, at the later of the two a
paid third party NOLAPD. Yet the best diss that a person can come up
with is to say that the botanica is in an undesirable neighborhood.
Really now! I think that the best place to set up any type of
religious establishment that will give people the opportunity to learn
about spirit, give them a sense of hope and establish some sort of
foundation for learning would be in an area where economic frustration
and depressed social issues abide. A peristyle is for the people, it
is a place of refuge, hope and revitalization. Aboudja is to be
commended.
Everyone has the right to choose which mambo or houngan they go to,
learn from and receive services.
We are looking at the competitors grinding teeth. The frustration is
that a person with spunk stepped out on the faith of Guinea and found
a teacher, established new ties and is having success working in the
religion. So the proud momma story does not even fit here.
What is continually seen here is the repeated cycle of a person
attempting to pull everyone in their drama, trying to prove a point of
which to date NO POINT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED and then at the same time
smiling behind the glass facade that they are OK.
This is sad and it needs to stop. It needs to stop for the reason
that it does not display any of the afro-carribean religions in a
positive light. This crap has spanned more than 3 different religions
now. The constant bickering keeps real people who are really
interested in the religion boggled with confusion and unable to find
the information that they want and need.
There is no need to pontificate! Making a scene by trying to air
dirty laundry, lying, posturing, threatening and pulling word scams,
lying on people's mother's and family does not ensure another
satisfied customer.
Every houngan and mambo runs their own house and in fact is their own
house!
If you have issues fine, keep them! If you do not like me, my
brothers or my sisters, FINE! Sorry, you missed the party! But again
keep my name out your mouth.
This ugliness is not my scene! Find love please!
Peace,
Manbo D
I did have the opportunity to take notice to some of Kathy's filth,
let me say to you Racine that you are the BIGGEST COWARD and LIAR that
has ever drew breath. The woman who ushered me in the djevo is my
mama kanzo and she is the same one who washed me coming out of the
djevo. It is impossible for a person to conduct a ceremony and then
to be receiving it at the same time. Despite the amount of
personalities you have. Look for a new angle!
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
(Houngan Aboudja) writes:
>Kanzo '99 wherein Kathy S. Grey received for the first time the ason
>along with me & several others, no one speaks to her or will have
>anything to do with her.
Etc. etc.
That's not true. I will say that kanzos at Houngan Danise's house were
difficult, for several reasons. We have our own peristyle, and no one has had
their belongings stolen or anything like that.
The individuals you refer to like Michele and a few others, aren't in contact
because they are not Mambos or Houngans! They couldn't keep their damn legs
closed for 41 days. The individual with whom Michele ruined her kanzo came
back in the next kanzo and re-did his ceremonies, and of course he is in touch.
The thing is, many of my initiates live overseas, they can't come to Haiti
regularly from Canada or the USA or England or Costa Rica. That doesn't mean
they are not in touch.
You, Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf, can't even come back to Houngan
Danise's house! You went on and on, right online, about how a family member of
his "taught you everything about being gay in Haiti", and you even had
inappropriate sexual relations with another of Houngan Danise's family. So we
don't really care if you are "not in touch".
Furthermore - how many of your initiates are "in touch" with you? Oh, that's
right, I forgot, you DON'T HAVE ANY INITIATES! lol Man, you're pitiful.
All of this wanking and cranking is nothing more than an attempt to gain my
clientele without doing the work. That is also why you plagiarize my webpage -
earthlink made you take a few pages down, remember? And that is also why you
now falsely claim to have gotten a second asson from Mambo Marie, because you
want the benefit without doing the work.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<who'sya...@NOSPAM.net> writes:
>It seems that anyone who does not just swallow your stories hook, line, and
>sinker is subject to harassment.
Yeah right. Do I send people written death threats? Do I plagiarize people's
websites? Etc. etc.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Manbo D: Racine you call Me a low life?
I sure do! What would you call a person like this: committing adultery,
sleeping with your intiator to try to get control of the business end of the
work in that peristyle, blackmailing him with threats of rape to try to get him
to give your Mom an asson for a pitiful $700, trying to solicit contributions
for "poor Haitians" to pay for your kanzo...
It amazes me how your scummy little crew are perfectly happy to lie and slam
and slander and print all sorts of stuff that isn't true about me, here and
even in places where I can't respond, but when I tell the truth about you all
on forums where you can read what I have to say, you get mad.
I bet you forgot about those syrupy, flowery emails you sent me after your
kanzo - and then how you wanted to kanzo people with Danise and I for twice the
price and pocket the difference, and get the asson for your mother (now falsely
claiming to be asogwe) on the cheap - and how when you couldn't get over,
suddenly Houngan Danise became a "rapist".
Yeah, I call you a low life, and that is a mild term for what you are. All of
the long wailing string of slander you write is just that - slander. Sending
Michael Graves to the Rendez-Vous during the past two kanzos to threaten the
proprietor and tell her that she should "give the peristyle to Dunni" is
pathetic! Taking money from people and then not giving them services - oh yes,
they came to me in Haiti after you were done ripping them off - is wrong,
wrong, wrong.
When people meet you, you come across all sugar and spice. You sure had me
fooled! Even when your past contacts in Vodou warned me about you I didn't
believe them. But that pretty face of yours covers a rotten heart. And you
know what? There is NOTHING you and your crew of liars can do to drag me down
- your experience since 1999 should have taught you that by now.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
Now I see what's going on....you are jealous because I am pretty and
you are not. You are angry because I am able to gather the attention
of a crowd when I walk into a room based on the fact that I am a
vision of love. You resent the fact that my golden brown skin looks
and taste of honey. You are angry because when I move, it is a
captivating display of grace. You resent the fact that I am able to
dance, on beat, to the rhythm of the drums. You despise the fact that
men white, black, Haitian and otherwise, gay, straight, and in the
middle find me to be a WOMAN of whom they can adore. Maybe it is the
perks of having so many Ezili, and other Lwa, maybe it is the fact
that OSHUN rules, maybe it is the fact that as a real woman you simply
are not able to compete. You are angry because my spirit is free from
your world of disdain, fear, hatred and loathsome agony. You are
angry because despite the fact you would wish ME as a BLACK woman to
fail and have to succumb to your wretched ways, that spirit always
seems to move me in the right direction and away from YOU.
You seem to continually have a problem with women, particularly BLACK
women because no one is willing to put up with your racist antics.
You wish to be the white master that rules and when anyone puts you in
your place you go into seek and destroy mode. You wish to be the
ultimate woman and you can't even get the title of super ninny or the
cracked crow award.
You sit back on your lilly white throne thinking that you can fool
everyone with your grammar, your ability to speak kreyol, and your
ability to take a picture, but knowing inside one day SOON, you will
be discovered for the racist white crone that you really are. You
further insult even the most confessed Klansmen by stating that you
just love those Haitians.
You are a fraud! You are the mistake that should have been swallowed.
You get on the internet posting nothing more than LIES about people
who are not in the position to defend themselves in order to find a
cheap thrill, become the heroine of words and champion of lowdown
dirty tactics. You pretend that the world is at your disposal when in
fact you are scraping for the scraps that most have left behind. You
falsely accuse and then twist facts to accommodate your pathetic,
illicit views and for what a whooping $13,000 at the end of the tax
season?
No, my dear by comparison you are the low life. Even in saying that,
from the likes of you, being called a low life is an honor. Please
refer to you Episcopalian bible. As a spiritual human being, I sit
lower that the angels yet rule the beast of the fields, foul of the
air and fish of the sea. Somewhere in that picture Racine your origin
might be discovered.
Your every move is calculated...you went to New Orleans only because
you knew Aboudja was there and you hoped and still do, that he would
just stop picking apart you inconsistent information and making you
look like a fool? You wish like hell that Aboudja would become a
member of your wiccadoo, hoodoo, voodoo, elitist group that and I
quote your coined phrase, "Rule the internet and shut every competitor
down." This same man, Houngan Aboudja, who you swore to the heavens,
loved you without condition or regard and by your OWN admission stated
that he would be the first to actually perform a full KANZO ceremony
in the USA, you praised him because of his knowledge of the religion,
herbs and ability to comprehend to quickly. You validated his
initiations by Mambo Yaffa as Houngan SI Pwen. Now you discredit him?
Why because he did not, will not, cannot share with you his
knowledge? Is it because he will not, cannot, and does not tolerate
your disrespect of the religion and the common Haitian that you treat
as cattle, more accurately slaves? Is it that you are angry because
he refuses to buy legitimately initiated Mambos and Houngan off in
Jacmel in an effort to become a member of the same assembly of
Houngans and Manbos you swore Manbo Soutini was lying about, claiming
that this assembly never existed? No, you fake guru of voodoo, the
Vodou is real, the Lwa is real, and Guinea is real. Houngan Aboudja
and others would rather WORK and prove themselves as a worthy
candidates in Vodou to become a member of the assembly other than to
use political influences and promises of more money and strong arm
tactics to have a seat in and on the counsel.
Your goal to get some santero or santera that will support your
efforts so that you can cross the gate and garner additional clientele
is additionally a bogus attempt. You are wrong again modakeke, IFA
knows what is real and you are not able to fake the path through it.
You can claim nothing over me or any of the people who were present in
1999. You did not touch a single solitary hair on my head or any of
the other 9 that were present. The only head you touched, were
allowed to touch, even came close to touching was your own. For that
matter, neither of the times I went to Haiti did you even touch me,
not even when you attempted to bash my head with a club. It broke
three times as you swung it. That same 3 inch thick, 3 foot long
baton, sits right now today on my altar. You call me names, girl the
pits of where you really fit in the dictionary has been edited. Might
I suggest a new approach? However I will add this to your warped
thought process, I would not suggest you attempt again to physically
assail me or any other adult. This type of thing is not met kindly.
Oh you did not think that we would hear about your threat to another
Houngan, another one of your fine initiatory sons, African American no
doubt, that you should and would beat him? Did he himself not tell
you that if you ever put your hands on him that he would choke you
until you were a memory? I personally will have you so far under the
jail that the warden himself will stomp the concrete that covers you.
Every legal means necessary will I use, here int he USA and Haiti. If
you ever would get out, the mixed race you speak of will be a term
referring to the dirt you inhaled while in solitary confinement.
No, I did not, will not call you my mother and can barely stomach the
fact that you are my initiatory sister. You make a huge deal about
being an initiatory mother, blah blah blah, wah wah wah, in August of
1999 you were an initiatory rectal sphincter from which all types of
sh*t exuded.
From what I hear from several people that have gone to Haiti with you,
you were not far from that in 2000, 2001 and we await the reports of
2002.
You scoff at my mother who has nothing to do with this discussion (by
the way once again you are scraping the bottom of the barrel here for
some scum to validate your pathetic nonsense) and has always tried to
do her best in these religions, all the time and lie on her and state
that she is not asogwe, when in fact in 1980 she took the asson and
was taken around Haiti to the different peristyles to be introduced to
the community by her godfather, this is protocol and the way it is
done. No one goes around flexing and asserting who they are, people
know it, the people announce it, the Lwa acknowledge it. No one has
to go bumbling around in a peristyle making a scene about who or what
they claim to be. It is tasteless and more than that a farce. Since
you insist on making this claim, I will post pictures of my mother's
ceremony for you, you twit, to again make you eat your words! She is
the reason I was able to call upon Madame Catherine Dunham, because as
a legitimately initiated AFRICAN AMERICAN MAMBO, they were introduced
and Ms. Dunham invited my Mom to her lakou anytime she, my mother had
the notion to go. This same woman, my mother is the reason that YOU,
you ungrateful beast have the asson now. That faithful night when we
were to go and receive asson and Danise refused to take us, I spoke
and said that I would call MY MOTHER to come and take us to receive
the asson. At that point, he moved not because you went screaming
about ABC and how politically affiliated you were and how he would be
viewed in the community when people found out that he had mistreated a
WHITE WOMAN. THOSE WERE YOUR EXACT WORDS. Not the fact that regleman
was in effect, not the fact that Papa Loko was waiting for his
children, but the fact that he is Black Haitian MAN and you are Ms.
White woman, how dare he say no to Ms. White Woman sitting up on the
hill who can maneuver politically and have him arrested and more than
that beat by your gang of bought thugs. This discussion was witness by
10 additional people who were able to hear the conversation
completely. That was known then as it is now.
Danise attest to this very day that he never wanted to give YOU the
asson because you had blatantly disrespected him, his house, his lakou
and cause problems over and over again. He was the one who told
Sonson and Edgar to whip you at the poteau mitan if you came back the
night that Emil nearly dislocated your jaw. It is your pot tete that
fell over in the djevo, dirt and dead leaves went into your pot, not
one of the other 10 had this issue.
Danise along with Houngan Joseph Sauvert said that you were SI PWEN.
Houngan Joseph Sauvert is the houngan that worked with Houngan Luc
Gideon to conduct your kanzo. God, I hope Manbo Soutini and the other
mambos and houngan who are able to check this information do so. I
hope that they go personally to the little town of Demais, just before
you enter Jacmel and check these facts. I hope that they sit down and
talk with Madam Sauvert and hear the tales of how it was you who had
sex with men while in the djevo and how Houngan Luc Gideon's wife had
to convey to you over and over again that Houngan Luc was her husband
and not your man. This too is what was said by them not me. I have
no reason to lie to you, on you or for you. I cannot stand you this
is no secret, but Kathy you need to know the truth and stop projecting
you misinformation on others.
Emil is the one who stood in front of me and a few others slobbing the
woman down he said was his wife. You are the one who laid in her bed.
You are the one who jumps from Haitian man to Haitian man to find
yourself a protector and a person who will defend you to other
Haitians. This too is the truth Kathy, when I told you then that Emil
was not holding you best interest at heart, you swore that one of the
1999 group wanted him for themselves. You are the one who called me
asserting that some Haitian woman called your house regarding Emil and
you wanted me to tell YOU the truth about what was going on. It was
Raynette who continued to lie to you about Emil and his wife, Kathy
wake up. I most certainly am not trying to hurt you, but the truth of
the matter is that your hatred and anger clouds your judgment 98.5% of
the time.
The people of that I speak of, those same people have made these
claims, not me, not Aboudja, none of us. It is there in Cyvaidier
that Belany cited your indiscretions to the group of us. You are the
one who tried to attack Belany on the taptap because he translated for
us and said that if we needed help that HE would be willing to assist
us in any way that he could. It is Gran Bwa that came and foretold us
of you impending behavior while we were in Haiti. It is on tape.
Stop you need to stop acting as if it is Houngan Aboudja and Manbo
Dunni and countless others that is your reason for aggravation. It is
you! Look in the mirror Kathy and get yourself together.
You act as if any one of us starts any of this mess. It is you, has
been you and continues to be you each and every time. You do not have
to like me, I personally couldn't give a toads warts, but for the fact
that you KNOW I AM ASOGWE, ABOUDJA IS ASOGWE, and MY MAMA FEY MARIE
CARMEL IS ASOGWE you need to respect that fact and PAPA LOKO.
Know your role and stay in you place. You were simply a bridge for
some to cross to get to a portion of spiritual that was needed. You
are angry because now when it is all said and done, the bridge is
burned when it is you who started the fire. You were available to
translate some of the time. We had to find others to translate for us
the rest of the time. Now if there are any claims of LIES to be told
here, then you put the fault where it lies, with the people who told
them in the beginning.
I have said nothing to you. Yet in your thinking, I am and Houngan
Aboudja are the persons who go around telling haunting tales about
you. WRONG! You are the one who continually assemble your new
initiates together to tell them of what a wicked person I am. These
same people come back and find that I am not the person that you
described at all, but indeed a person who is living and learning
Guinea. I am human and of course I have my own faults. I keep right
on striving to be a better person because it is all about growth and
development. I do not throw stones to hide my face Kathy. You are
the one who sends the private emails to prospective initiates of mine
and tells them that I am incompetent. Yet at the same time, YOUR
website attest to the validation and competency of Houngan Aboudja and
myself. HYPOCRITE! You are the one who says that a family is always
welcome with family, but in the same breath says everyone
except...Houngan Aboudja, Manbo Dunni, Manbo Michelle, Kevin, etc.
You made comment regarding me because you found that I am still
supporting Houngan Aboudja, standing by him and establishing connects
elsewhere with other legitimately initiated Houngan and Manbos. You
are angry because even with all of your mouth, huffing and puffing
that in the end I am still on my spiritual path doing what I have been
called to do you and you are not able to dissuade me.
Whatever Kathy you still reign supreme as the most pitiful excuse for
skin that I have ever seen move about independently.
I only pray that one day you will see what you are doing and correct
it. I feel sorry for you. I really do and hope that you will change
and be a better person. Airing dirty laundry and being antagonistic
is not the manner by which anyone should go to prove themselves as a
Spiritual leader.
You suck and I am again amazed that after 4 years you hold on to this
bone like a skinny ravenous dog that has no hope for a future meal.
Let it go and you will be a better person, pray for enlightenment.
Find yourself a new set of toys.
Peace,
Manbo D.
Houngan Aboudja
>>>That is also why you plagiarize my webpage -
earthlink made you take a few pages down, remember? And that is also
why you
now falsely claim to have gotten a second asson from Mambo Marie,
because you
want the benefit without doing the work.<<<
Actually, that is public domain. Anyone can inquire with EarthLink as
to whether they have ever demanded I remove a single byte of my
website, much less said a word to me about your lunatic rantings at
all. They have not & anyone who cares about what Racine is saying
(which I imagine is no-one) is welcome to contact EarthLink & ask.
You will find it just as I say & will find the Flying Manbo is lying
again... as is usual.
Houngan Aboudja
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Dunlap Thompson, Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Now I see what's going on....you are jealous because I am pretty and
>you are not. You are angry because I am able to gather the attention
>of a crowd when I walk into a room based on the fact that I am a
>vision of love.
Oh, I'm dyin' laffin'! Yeah, you are a beautiful liar, and I am an ugly honest
person.
(giggle)
It's not the face that matters, Jennifer. If anyone wants to have a look at
me, they can go to my website and access
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/roots_without_end.html , there is a reasonably
large, clear portrait and some other photos of me. I don't care if people
think I am pretty or ugly or somewhere in between.
>You resent the fact that my golden brown skin looks
>and taste of honey. You are angry because when I move, it is a
>captivating display of grace.
Modest, too, aren't you? LOL! Can you say "delusions of grandeur"?
>as a real woman you simply
>are not able to compete.
Yeah, that's true - I don't aspire to rack up a string of adulteries, my
adultery score is ZERO, I admit it. I have never had two men, cousins to each
other, in my room overnight. I've never had same-sex relationships - meanwhile
heterosexually married, to boot! I have never done those things, I admit it.
>You are
>angry because despite the fact you would wish ME as a BLACK woman to
>fail and have to succumb to your wretched ways
What do I care what color you are? Our house is international, multiracial,
multiethnic, it's not an issue.
>You wish to be the white master that rules
BWAHAHAHAHA! It looks to me like you have a race problem.
>You sit back on your lilly white throne thinking that you can fool
>everyone with your grammar, your ability to speak kreyol, and your
>ability to take a picture
You are jealous that I am educated, multi-lingual, and talented? DON'T BE. I
keep telling you, if you would spend as much time improving yourself and
developing your clientele as you do in unsuccessful attempts to tear me down,
you would do much better. Go to an adult education class or something! LOL!
You imitate me in your writing, you tried to take over the business end of my
activities in Houngan Danise's lakou, you sent people to the proprietor of the
Rendez-Vous to make threats and tell her to "give the peristyle to Dunni"! Who
are you trying to fool? If anyone is a wannabe, it's you.
>but knowing inside one day SOON, you will
>be discovered for the racist white crone that you really are.
You keep predicting all these horrible things, but I keep going from strength
to strength. (By the way, "crone" is a term of honor, to my understanding, it
denotes a post-menopausal woman of high status. I'm not a "crone" yet, but
maybe someday.) And I am not the one who goes on about "pickaninnies" and
"ignorant southern blacks" and "coon asses".
>You
>further insult even the most confessed Klansmen by stating that you
>just love those Haitians.
What's wrong with Haitians? Why shouldn't I love Haitians? Haitians are
people too, of course I love Haitians, especially my initiates - I love Mambo
Simone, I love Houngan Luckner, I love Houngan Babou, I love Hounsi Lishmi, I
love our maman hounyo Hounsi Philomene, I love Hounsi Victoire, I love Hounsi
Emmaneus, I love medsen fey Loulou, I love Dieuveut who helps me take care of
my horses, I love Houngan Fritzner, I love Mambo Vierge... if you or a Klansman
are offended, what do I care? Suppose I even preferred to have a Haitian man
for a partner, over all other men, what's the problem? A Haitian man isn't
good enough?
>You are a fraud!
Funny, the clients who went to you first said you ripped them off for about
five thousand dollars and they got nothing from you. We did all the work they
needed, ancestral offerings, a lave tet, magical work, a Petro service, a leaf
bath, and more, for less than two thousand including room and food and airport
taxi and a day at the beach, and they went home happy.
In our house we NEVER do anything less than authentic ceremonies, we don't do
bogus hocus-pocus "sevis tets" for people who want to say they are initiates
but can't spare the time. When people come to my house for a kanzo or for
private ceremonies, they know ahead of time exactly what they are going to get
and exactly how much they are going to pay, and it's the same for everyone -
it's right there on my web page, in fact!
>You are the mistake that should have been swallowed.
Swallowed? You mean, like, swallowed by a whale or something?
>You get on the internet posting nothing more than LIES about people
>who are not in the position to defend themselves
No, I respond to your little crew's lies with the truth about you in a place
where you can read and respond. You and your band of happy slanderers do your
dirty work on forums you think I won't see. But hey, there is an easy way to
settle this - I am waiting for your permission to publish those IMs where you
ask me to help you run your little "Haitian charity" scam to pay for your
kanzo, all those emails you wrote me after your kanzo telling me how I was such
a God-given blessing in your life - until I wouldn't help you pressure Houngan
Danise into giving your mom the asson for $700, until I wouldn't facilitate
your charging people twice what I do for exactly the same work, then all of a
sudden I became an evil person!
>for what a whooping $13,000 at the end of the tax
>season?
What is that supposed to do, worry me? That $13,000 is right there on my tax
return. I declare all my income, which is more than you can say.
>As a spiritual human being, I sit
>lower that the angels yet rule the beast of the fields, foul of the
>air
Heeey! LOL! You rule the FOUL of the air for real - the word you are seeking,
you uneducated sot, is f-o-w-l. The quote refers to the "fowls of the air",
what a dolt you are.
>Your every move is calculated...you went to New Orleans only because
>you knew Aboudja was there
(giggle)
(GUFFAW)
I'm sorry, a.r.o., I just can't stop laughing!
Oh yes, I'm dying to be in the same town with the "Flower of Abomey", or
rather, "The Abomination of Pflugerville, Texas", yessirreee Bob! LOL!
Actually, I would feel more comfortable if he weren't there, in the light of
the death threats he emailed me and his efforts to wheedle me into going
somewhere with his chosen "escorts", people who I know to be capable of
violence. I'm not ashamed to admit that I am afraid of Moellendorf, I know he
is a sicko.
>This same man, Houngan Aboudja, who you swore to the heavens,
>loved you without condition or regard
Who swore he loved me? He swore he loved me? Or you swore he loved me? Or I
swore he loved me? We can all see how much he loves me, right?
>you validated his
>initiations by Mambo Yaffa as Houngan SI Pwen.
Yes, I admit that I believed his story of having been initiated by Mambo Yaffa
as something resembling "sur point". Now I don't, because now I have been to
New Orleans a few times, talked to people in a position to know, and discovered
that his story was a big lie. You know, when I started out doing this work, I
had no idea how many nutcases and stinkers I would encounter. I came from a
decent family, I grew up in a nice community, I really had very little
experience of people like that, I admit it. Congratulations, your little crew
has wised me up to how vile, vulgar, sexually perverted, deceitful, greedy,
vicious and dishonest people can be. Thank you.
>Is it because he will not, cannot, and does not tolerate
>your disrespect of the religion and the common Haitian that you treat
>as cattle, more accurately slaves?
I invite any genuinely interested party to go to the Vodou Arts forum at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vodou_Arts , and access the Photo section. There
you will see photos of me and my happy, well fed, healthy, contented Haitian
initiates performing ceremonies, dancing on the beach, and so on. What have
you got against Haitians, that you call them "cattle"?
> Is it that you are angry because
>he refuses to buy legitimately initiated Mambos and Houngan off in
>Jacmel
LOL! He can't even show his face in Danise's lakou, neither you nor he have
set foot there since August 1999! I live in Jacmel ten months out of every
twelve, my house is an active one, Houngans and Mambos from Jacmel come there
when I hold dances, they help me and encourage me, and I am very grateful to
them. Why do you keep trying to smear Jacmelian Houngans and Mambos as
mercenaries? The only person I pay is Houngan Fritzner, and I pay him very
well - he is our papa kanzo, what do you want me to do, give him a pittance?
His work is valuable and he deserves to be compensated, just like me.
> in an effort to become a member of the same assembly of
>Houngans and Manbos you swore Manbo Soutini was lying about, claiming
>that this assembly never existed?
What "assembly"? The Houngans and Mambos asogwe of Jacmel have had meetings to
prepare for Fet Gede, and I naturally was invited. This does not constitute
"The Assembly of Houngans and Mambos", there is no such organization.
>Vodou is real, the Lwa is real, and Guinea is real.
You betcha!
> Houngan Aboudja
>and others would rather WORK
So DO some work then! Let me see you all do some REAL ceremonies, not
phoney-baloney "sevis tets", and then claim that your dupes are now "initiates"
and "hounsis", you shameless band of scam artists. Oh, that's right, you don't
know how to do any real ceremonies, you didn't stick around long enough to
learn. Since the day you had your kanzo, you have never even observed another
one, you don't know how to do it.
>and prove themselves as a worthy
>candidates in Vodou to become a member of the assembly other than to
>use political influences
Oh, now you think I have vast political influence? Well, thank you, I suppose.
> and promises of more money
You think I have lots of money, that bugs you, huh?
> and strong arm
>tactics
You think I am physically able to strong-arm Haitian Houngans? LOL!
>Your goal to get some santero or santera that will support your
>efforts so that you can cross the gate and garner additional clientele
Actually, I know very little about Santeria or Lukumi or Ifa service, and I
have said so repeatedly right here on a.r.o. and elsewhere. I have initiated
people with backgrounds in those branches of the tradition, including Babalawos
and Paleros, and I know what they have told me but that is about it.
>You can claim nothing over me or any of the people who were present in
>1999. You did not touch a single solitary hair on my head or any of
>the other 9 that were present.
Why are you lying? I am not going to reveal what happened in the djevo.
> For that
>matter, neither of the times I went to Haiti did you even touch me,
>not even when you attempted to bash my head with a club. It broke
>three times as you swung it.
Oh, I haven't had such a good laugh in years! First you claimed I beat you
black and blue, now I tried to "bash your head with a club" but it broke? LOL!
So, if I tried to beat you up, or beat you up for real, depending on which lie
you are telling today, and if Houngan Danise is a rapist, how come you never
went to the police? You're full of it.
>...another one of your fine initiatory sons, African American no
>doubt, that you should and would beat him? Did he himself not tell
>you that if you ever put your hands on him that he would choke you
>until you were a memory?
Now you're claiming that someone wants to choke me to death? And you admire
this? I bet YOU would like to choke me to death, but funny thing, I am still
here.
>I personally will have you so far under the
>jail that the warden himself will stomp the concrete that covers you.
Maybe you should go and report this person you claim wants to choke me to
death! LOL!
Well... since you claim I did all these things to you, and despite the fact
that you are so eager to lock me up, how come you never actually made a
complaint to the police, to the Commissaire de Gouvernement, to anyone but a
Usenet forum? How come, Jennifer? How come you never went to the cops? How
come you never had me arrested? According to you, you would like to - and if
you had all those bruises, you had proof, right? So what happened? If Danise
raped you, why didn't you go to the police? Why didn't you go to the hospital
and get medical evidence? And above all, why in God's name, if I beat you and
Danise raped you, would you want to bring your mother back there for an asson?
And why did you send me all those syrupy sweet emails with floral backgrounds,
no less, thanking me from the bottom of your heart, after you got home from
your kanzo? Can you spell, "d-e-l-u-si-o-n-a-l"?
>August of
>1999 you were an initiatory rectal sphincter from which all types of
>sh*t exuded.
Well, that certainly shows us the type of refined, cultured woman you are,
doesn't it? An empty head and a heart full of hate.
>From what I hear from several people that have gone to Haiti with you,
>you were not far from that in 2000, 2001 and we await the reports of
>2002.
But you HAVE that, Jennifer - right here, Mambo Tamara Siuda gave a.r.o her
take on her kanzo last year. Right here, I have reposted, with permission, the
account given by a woman who just last month had a lave tet. You can see the
photos from the last lave tet, with my initiates assisting - they came from as
far away as Syracuse, New York to be there in New Orleans, and if my Haitian
initiates could get American tourist visas rapidly they would have come too!
>You scoff at my mother who has nothing to do with this discussion
You know, I saw a profile where she claims to be asogwe, and we both know she
is not.
>in fact in 1980 she took the asson
No she didn't - that's why you wanted her to kanzo at Danise's house in 1999!
She told me all about how the place in Haiti where she went totally scammed
her, threw an asson OVER THE ROOF OF A HOUSE, AND LET IT FALL IN THE DIRT in
front of her. Oh yeah, that's how people give the asson, right?
>Ms. Dunham invited my Mom to her lakou anytime she, my mother had
>the notion to go.
Catherine Dunham is a very gracious woman who has invited a lot of people to
her lakou, including me. Her groundskeeper was an uninitiated Canadian guy and
a lot of his friends were there too, but that doesn't make them Houngans and
Mambos, you're ridiculous.
>This same woman, my mother is the reason that YOU,
>you ungrateful beast have the asson now.
Teee HEEE! Your mother was in Haiti to tell Danise to give folks an asson?
She told him that she knows how to do it, since she got one flung to her over
the roof into the dirt for her to pick up? Puh-LEASE.
But you can't make up your mind - one minute you claim I don't have the asson,
the next minute you claim that I do.
>That faithful night when we
>were to go and receive asson and Danise refused to take us, I spoke
>and said that I would call MY MOTHER to come
F-a-t-e-f-u-l, you unlettered imbecile. Oh, you were going to call your mommy?
Houngan Danise was scared of your mommy?
I haven't had such a good laugh in a loooooong time.
>Ms. White Woman sitting up on the
>hill
You don't like white people very much, do you, Jennifer?
>who can maneuver politically and have him arrested and more than
>that beat by your gang of bought thugs.
I have "gangs of bought thugs"? Well, that's a new one.
>Danise attest to this very day that he never wanted to give YOU the
>asson because you had blatantly disrespected him, his house, his lakou
>and cause problems over and over again. He was the one who told
>Sonson and Edgar to whip you at the poteau mitan if you came back the
>night that Emil nearly dislocated your jaw.
Whippings? Dislocated jaws? Man, you have some very violent fantasies, I can
just imagine what your upbringing was like.
Jennifer, use your brain. If Danise was so disgusted with me in August of
1999, how is it possible that I did another kanzo there in January of 2000?
(Initiates from that kanzo include author Houngan Ross Heaven, who has
published "The Journey to You" and "Spirit in the City", for which he invited
me to write the preface; also Houngan David Golding, who is present at every
Fet Gede in Haiti and every lave tet ceremony in New Orleans, and others.)
How is that possible, Jennifer? And how is it possible that I did yet another
kanzo there in July of 2000? And how is it possible that we scheduled still
another kanzo for August 2000? I left that place because I won't tolerate my
initiates being robbed, I canceled the August 2000 kanzo and I left, that's
all.
In fact, Danise told you right to your shameless face, "If Mambo Racine wasn't
already asogwe, not one of you would have more than hounsi kanzo." Do you want
to deny that?
More than that - the lwa Grand Bwa himself, in possession of Houngan Danise,
said to your whole kanzo group, "Houngan Danise is your father, Mambo Racine is
your mother, Houngan Danise is your father, Mambo Racine is your mother...",
over and over and OVER! Do you want to deny that too? I guess he foresaw what
a band of greedy, vicious and ungrateful people you would prove to be. I admit
you had me fooled for a while, but Grand Bwa saw through you.
Well, Houngan Danise tells you, the lwa tell you, but you know better, huh.
>Danise along with Houngan Joseph Sauvert said that you were SI PWEN.
>Houngan Joseph Sauvert is the houngan that worked with Houngan Luc
>Gideon to conduct your kanzo.
Houngan Sauvert was not present when I took my asson from Houngan Luc
G-e-d-e-o-n. Houngan Sauvert said a lot of things, he said you were a "fat
whore", and I thought that was wrong of him, too.
> it was you who had
>sex with men while in the djevo
That's sick, that's a disgusting lie.
>Houngan Luc Gideon's wife had
>to convey to you over and over again that Houngan Luc was her husband
>and not your man.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Houngan Luc was over sixty years old when I had my kanzo! Do you
go for men twice you age? (Well, maybe you do, I don't know.) He was an old
man, and he died only four years later. What an idiotic pile of lies, you
should be able to come up with something better than this.
I keep telling you, all you have to do if you want to clear this up is to give
me permission to publish all emails and Instant Messages from you to me and
from me to you. If you won't, we can all see why.
>I have
>no reason to lie to you
You have EVERY REASON to lie, you have been lying for years now! Your
motivation is your desire for money, money, MONEY! And you imagine that the
way to make money is to get rid of me, somehow, so that you can gain my
clientele without doing any work.
>Emil is the one who stood in front of me and a few others slobbing the
>woman down he said was his wife. You are the one who laid in her bed.
HOUNGAN E-m-i-l-e is not married and has never been. Why are you lying on him?
Furthermore, I don't go with married men, adultery apparently intrigues you,
but I find it repulsive.
> You are the one who jumps from Haitian man to Haitian man
Jennifer, you have been rejected by at least three lawfully married husbands
for your behavior. The last time I had news of you it was about how the last
one whipped your behind. That's wrong, he had no right to hit you. I admit
that I have also dumped partners for infidelity, I don't tolerate it any more
than your ex-husbands did. So what? I thought you said I was so ugly and
unattractive, now all these men want me? You're not terribly logical tonight.
> I most certainly am not trying to hurt you
Yeah, we can see how much you don't want to hurt me! LOL! The truth is that
you would LOVE to do almost anything to harm me, and you are vexed as hell that
you can't.
>You are the
>one who tried to attack Belany on the taptap
Now you want to accuse me of "attacking people on taptaps?" You're just full
of violent fantasies, huh? It's a funny thing, if I am so violent and I run up
and down attacking people, how I am never arrested, never punished, never
brought up on charges? YOU, on the other hand, told me that you got in a
fistfight with one of your Haitian boyfriends' domestic partner, and you
bragged about it! If you hadn't bragged about it I would not have known,
right? You have been in trouble with the law more than once - remember that
time you got all scared about being mixed up in that felony murder case with
that woman who allegedly killed her own child? Am I lying? I will happily
publish THOSE Instant Messages and emails, I am just waiting for permission.
> you KNOW I AM ASOGWE, ABOUDJA IS ASOGWE
Of course you are! I have never said you are not - you are asogwe precisely
because I and Danise David gave you a good kanzo, and Houngan Danise gave you
an asson when I told him that if he didn't, I would! I have never denied that
Houngan Danise gave you an asson.
> and MY MAMA FEY MARIE
>CARMEL IS ASOGWE
Mambo Marie Carmel *Charles* is probably a Mambo asogwe, I have not met her but
I have no reason to believe that she is not. I also believe her when she says
that she never did any kanzo for Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf, and
wasn't even in Haiti at the time he claims. I don't think she is lying.
> stay in you place. You were simply a bridge for
>some to cross to get to a portion of spiritual that was needed. You
>are angry because now when it is all said and done, the bridge is
>burned
Ah HAH! I am SO glad you said this - use 'em and lose 'em, burn your bridges
after you cross them, huh? You admit this right here, I don't even need to ask
your permission to reprint it, YOU just said this about YOURSELF. Thank you,
thank you, thank you.
>your thinking, I am and Houngan
>Aboudja are the persons who go around telling haunting tales about
>you. WRONG!
So those posts forwarded to me from Moellendorf's forums are fabrications, he
never really wrote them? The website attributed to him isn't really his?
Someone put it up behind his back?
>You are the one who continually assemble your new
>initiates together to tell them of what a wicked person I am.
Actually, I don't spend much time thinking about you at all, and if you and
Moellendorf hadn't started up your little semi-annual slander campaign, I would
have had nothing to say.
>These
>same people come back and find that I am not the person that you
>described at all
I repeat, some of my private clients are people who went to you FIRST, then
came to me. They said you ripped them off, why would they lie?
> I am human and of course I have my own faults.
Yes, we can all see that.
>YOUR
>website attest to the validation and competency of Houngan Aboudja and
>myself. HYPOCRITE!
To the contrary, I would be a hypocrite if I said that you two did not kanzo,
did not get assons. I have never done so. You are both asogwe. You are NOT
competent, you had two weeks of ceremonies and you never came back.
> You are the one who says that a family is always
>welcome with family, but in the same breath says everyone
>except...Houngan Aboudja, Manbo Dunni, Manbo Michelle, Kevin, etc.
Kevin is not an initiate! He had a lave tet, and a lave tet does not make a
person an initiate, only the kanzo can do that. Michele is not a Mambo!
Moellendorf writes me death threats, and you, in this very post, have suggested
all sorts of violence. Why would I want you at my place? When and IF your
behavior improves, when and IF you show me that you have made major changes in
your personality, when and IF your obsession with violence and your compulsion
to tell lies abates, then maybe I might meet you for a cup of coffee somewhere,
someplace safe with other people I trust present, not the untrustworth and
unsavory people Moellendorf suggests should be my escorts. But... naahhh,
maybe not, I try to avoid negative, violent, dishonest people.
>You suck
LOL! How eloquent, how erudite, how indicative of good character!
>after 4 years you hold on
Four years? You had your kanzo in August 1999, it is now June of 2002, which
makes less than three years. Can't count either, huh?
I'm still waiting for your permission to publish emails and Instant Message
logs.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>acin...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote in message
>news:<20020607103537...@mb-fj.aol.com>...
>>>>That is also why you plagiarize my webpage -
>earthlink made you take a few pages down, remember? And that is also
>why you
>now falsely claim to have gotten a second asson from Mambo Marie,
>because you
>want the benefit without doing the work.<<<
>
>Actually, that is public domain. Anyone can inquire with EarthLink as
>to whether they have ever demanded I remove a single byte of my
>website
Oh, so you took down your plagiarisms voluntarily? Good.
>much less said a word to me about your lunatic rantings
If you think my writing is "lunatic rantings", why did you plagiarize it? LOL!
>You will find it just as I say & will find the Flying Manbo is lying
>again... as is usual.
Oh yeah? If I am lying and you are telling the truth, let's have your
permission to publish all those archived emails and IMs.
You're scared to do that, aren't you, you whining, lying little cream puff, you
cowardly little baby boy - posting lies on lists where you hope I won't see
them; trying to wheedle me into going somewhere in New Orleans with people who
have histories of violence so you can have them do whatever you imagine you
want to do to me. You are no man at all! At least I am woman enough to say
what I have to say where you can read it and respond to it.
If you were telling the truth and I were lying, you would be perfectly happy to
have all those emails revealed. The fact that you don't want the truth to come
out shows that YOU ARE THE LIAR.
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020608063949...@mb-mh.aol.com...
> You're scared to do that, aren't you, you whining, lying little
> cream puff, you cowardly little baby boy - posting lies on lists
> where you hope I won't see them; trying to wheedle me into going
> somewhere in New Orleans with people who have histories of violence
> so you can have them do whatever you imagine you want to do to me.
> You are no man at all! At least I am woman enough to say what I
> have to say where you can read it and respond to it.
When dealing with Narcissistic/Histrionic Personality Disorder,
Phillip Long, M.D. recommends:
* * * * *
Some clinicians, suggest that the grandiosity and tendency to
idealize and devalue should be interpreted as defensive maneuvers
when aspects of early conflictual relationships are played out in
adult life. Other clinicians, posit that the emergence of the
patient's grandiosity and tendency to idealize the therapist should
initially be viewed supportively.
* * * * *
In that spirit:
I see you're very angry because Aboudja and Dunni rejected you.
Would you like to talk to us about it?
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPQIdC6rZ1tz+tBxdEQKTbACaAk1kf+iaLUBm0HVuBto4kfOOFKoAnRFs
x5L/mHSNIXyfBUGGAdGTlWn+
=vaEj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I see you're very angry because Aboudja and Dunni rejected you.
LOL! They also rejected, between the two of them, Mambo Yaffa, Houngan Danise,
Angela Novanyon, Mambo Nadiyo, Houngan Sorel, Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Dunni"
Thompson's first initiators in Santeria (according to her, anyhow)... what do I
care who they "reject".
I'm angry because they are LYING and SLANDERING. I am waiting for permission
to publish those emails and IM's.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
spiritual relationships.....My Godmother whom I loved passed away. My
relationship with Manbo Angela was strained and still maybe, due to me
being influenced by you. On the other hand what can we say about you.
Racine quit bucking up at her once she lost her support network. You
are still a coward and Angela is still successful. She proved her
point and you like always ran and stuck your head in a hole.
Peace
Manbo D.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
You really are sick. You need professional help and I will continue
to pray for you. Trust me if I had wanted to assil you in the manner
that you did me, I would have been SUCCESSFUL. However, I do not
stoop to physical violence and making death wangas and sending morts
after people. We do know that on 3 seperate occassion that you tried
to poison me. We know that because ERic, Edgar, and the other Laplace
told me that the night I got there. People of whom I had never met
before in my life. This they said in the presence of Houngan Aboudja,
Jo and then repeated once the others were there. It was so bad that I
did not eat at the Lakou with anyone else because YOUR jealousy was
obvious and I did not want anything to do with you. Again you are the
one who attacked me. After Ogu came you are the one who fell sick
after EMILE, who does have a wife, had knocked your jaw off your face.
I am the one who told Emile not to hit you anymore. It was Manbo
Leanne who came to me and said let them fight the LWA had come to
defend me. NOW. If you choose to lie Kathy I do not care. You lie
all the time anyway. You continue to lie because the truth is you
have nothing better to do. If Houngan Aboudja and I, as a
LEGITIMATELY INITIATED VODOU HOUNGAN AND MAMBO, posed you not real
competition in regard to initiations, then you would have very little
to say. Oh, I think we all know what is going on here Kathy. You can
not stand the fact that SUCCESS is in the cards for us. You can not
stand the fact that in spite your your ignorance that we keep right on
growing. You thought that because we were not in your presence that
we would fail. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You deny the fact that
MIchelle is a manbo because again, who is she a black woman who put
you in your place. How dare she! What bothers you more than that is
that she has the ability to do what you can not. BE SUCCESSFUL. We
have noticed how much smaller your initiations have gotten. 3 or 4
people from overseas somewhere, of whom you will probably never see
again, especially with the insanity that you continually display.
Kathy just let it alone, your lies are becoming so much more obvious.
Oh and btw Michelle is not only a manbo, but she is ASOGWE! LOL and
guess what Kathy, she is good.
We can say for sure that we have different views. You are stuck in
the abyss of stupidity and despair and I have clear vision. I am able
to see right threw you everytime.
I'll see you the next time you come to New Orleans, provided that I
bring my own security. I would not trust you as far as I can spit
you. So for that reason, I'll bring my own coffee.
Get it together girl.
By the way, I have my DOCTORATE in theology. I shall post that along
with other picture. If you would like to confirm the bestowal of that
HONOR, Please refer to Dr. K. Jefferies. I have no need to brag about
my DEGREES. You are the one who continually harps on those issues.
Sad! Hell typos are common for anyone to make. When someone other
than yourself does it, it's ignorance. When you do it, it's slipped
fingers. PATHETIC!
I am tired of arguing with you now, back to making my flags for
Society Abome.
Manbo D.
Zevaluz
(IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) wrote:
> back to making my flags for Society Abome.
If I may ask, I'm curious about flag making =)
I have one flag that I did for Erzulie Freda (it was my learning flag,
so it's not anything to brag about!) that I did the 'traditional' type
way, sequin by sequin, bead by bead, needle poking into finger.
I was wondering if they're usually done this way in America, or if
anyone's gotten more non-traditional with them, and used sequin
strips, incorporated quilting methods into the background (strip and
crazy quilting techniques would lend itself very beautifully I would
think to flags! =) I'm just not good enough with fabric to try it
yet.)
Just curious =) My beginning flag is still packed away because I got
the impression that it was "Nice try, but not quite lovely enough"
from Erzulie Freda. I'm working with a medium I'm more familiar with
right now to create something special for her, but I've not quite
given up on making a flag ;)
In peace,
Zevaluz
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Kathy do not lie on my relationship with my madrinas or my other
>spiritual relationships.....My Godmother whom I loved passed away.
Oh? That's not what you told me.
> My
>relationship with Manbo Angela was strained and still maybe, due to me
>being influenced by you.
If you will give me permission to publish those IM logs, I will be happy to
reveal all those conversations where you kept urging me to take up for you
against her, get mixed up in your problems with her... I don't care much for
Angela, based on questions of *her* authenticity and *her* behavior, but I did
think it was big of them to send me an email warning me about you. I wish I
would have believed them.
Go make those flags, Dunni, simple repetitive tasks will be good for you.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
> Trust me if I had wanted to assil you in the manner
>that you did me, I would have been SUCCESSFUL.
"Assil" me? What on earth are you trying to say?
>We do know that on 3 seperate occassion that you tried
>to poison me.
WhooooEEE! Paranoia strikes deep! Now you have delusions that people are
trying to poison you. (Oh, and it's s-e-p-a-r-a-t-e.) Do you have any idea
what you look like, writing this kind of stuff?
>It was so bad that I
>did not eat at the Lakou with anyone else
You have food obsessions? Everyone ate together, you ate, we all ate - you
came down owing money, you hadn't paid your fees in full. You couldn't pay for
your meals, even at the rate of twelve miserable dollars a day - that was all I
charged you for three square meals. You threw yourself on the responsibility
of already-hungry Haitians, you selfish woman! Houngan Danise finally told you
that you had to pay, and you coughed up a few bucks. Even in the djevo, you
ate what we all ate.
>after Ogu came you are the one who fell sick
Now you think the lwa are making me sick? Fortunately I am not as paranoid as
you.
>after EMILE, who does have a wife
*Houngan* Emile is not married, has never been married. He has even rented out
his house, where he lived alone, and gone to live with family - you want to
tell us he threw his "wife" out all of a sudden? Sure, he cheated on me,
that's why I dumped him, I don't tolerate infidelity any more than your three
ex-husbands did. He then became violent, just like you do sometimes. It
wasn't the first time but it was the last time, three strikes and you're out!
I had him arrested and put in prison. A Haitian judge heard the case, a
Haitian doctors and other Haitian witnesses testified, and he went to prison
for a while. How come, if I beat you or tried to beat you or attacked someone
on a taptap or whatever, how come I never went to prison?
> It was Manbo
>Leanne who came to me and said let them fight the LWA had come to
>defend me.
Oh yes, Mambo Leanne, the woman who told me, "Let me get some money from those
idiots", she thought you would all shower her with gifts, poor thing. She
didn't like it that I tried to protect you, and it was an exercise in futility
anyhow.
>You continue to lie
Dunni, can you spell p-r-o-j-e-c-t-i-o-n? You are violent, so you accuse me of
violence. You set up phoney charity scams, so you accuse me of fraud. Your
behavior is nothing less than whorish, so you accuse me of being sexually
indiscreet. You are a liar, so you accuse me of lying.
And you know what? If you really want to settle this, simply give me your
permission to publish all those emails and Instant Message logs. You won't,
though, will you? And the reason is that the truth will be mighty embarrassing
to you.
>Oh, I think we all know what is going on here Kathy. You can
>not stand the fact that SUCCESS is in the cards for us.
I have never once tried to stop either of you from working, from having a
botanica, from doing whatever you like! I have repeatedly said that you and
Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf are initiates, that you have assons. I
have told you both repeatedly, when you were in Haiti, that the Vodou is HUGE,
there is room inside for everyone, Haitian, American, black, white, whoever,
and there is plenty of work to go around.
I think you are the one who can't stand someone else's success.
1) I have a peristyle, you do not, thus you sent a defrocked pederast
ex-priest you met while he was holed up in Cyvadier (funny how like-minded
people find each other) to the proprietor of the Rendez-Vous, telling her how
evil and horrible I am and how she should "give the peristyle to Dunni!" I bet
you won't tell us all what response she gave him, but I will. She said that
she had found me honest and honorable in all my dealings with her, and that she
had also heard quite a bit about you from local sources, and that rather than
giving the peristyle to you, she would prefer to burn it down! But of course,
you will never tell the truth about that little fiasco of yours, will you?
2) I have the support of the Vodouisant community of Jacmel, you have not been
back to your initiatory house since August of 1999! Rather than admit your
errors and correct your flaws, you slam and slander me while seated behind your
computer in Gary, Indiana! LOL! (Or wherever you are now, maybe you don't
live there anymore.)
3) I am privileged to obtain ceremonial space at notable venues like the New
Orleans Historic Voodoo Museum Annex, and your buddy Mark Alexander "Aboudja"
Moellendorf is so threatened that he tries to set me up for God knows what,
sending people to me to wheedle me to come, and promising me an "escort" from
people I know to be capable of violence! I don't think anyone who reads this
forum will suggest that Moellendorf genuinely enjoys my presence, I think we
can all see that those invitations had ulterior motives.
4) I am competent, I know the songs and the invocations and the liturgy, I run
correct and authentic services in the USA and in Haiti, and I take pictures of
them and put them online - anyone can see that I am telling the truth. You
also would like to be considered competent, so you invent so-called bogus
"sevis tets" in the hope of ripping off a few people who want to call
themselves initiates without spending the time and money to go to Haiti, and
when that doesn't work you all blare about these huge ceremonies you supposedly
hold... until people who were there report that these huge ceremonies consisted
of twelve people listening to a CD of Vodou music! You are the ones who let
the person in, and then you claim they weren't there! And you can't provide
one photograph, either. LOL!
5) Every six months I do a kanzo - people come from all over the world to
become a part of our house, and Haitians request initiation in our house too.
Every few weeks I receive private clients (including those who passed through
your hands first and got scammed, but GOOD!), every few months I do seminars
and in the meantime, two lave tet ceremonies a year in New Orleans. Not only
that, but I have a professional career in addition. So, you try to discredit
our house, smear Haitian Houngans and Mambos as mercenaries, smear my clients
as deluded fools, smear Houngan Fritzner and our assisting clergy as frauds.
>You deny the fact that
>MIchelle is a manbo because again, who is she a black woman who put
>you in your place.
What are all these racial problems you have? Put me in my place? LOL! I deny
that she is a Mambo because she put a man's dick in her (deleted) twelve hours
after she got out of the djevo! Who cares what color her stuff is? She was
supposed to keep it closed for 41 days!
>We
>have noticed how much smaller your initiations have gotten.
Huh? Smaller? Uh, okay... SEVENTEEN people in a kanzo I did in my own
peristyle in July 2001, as opposed to five in January 2000 at Houngan Danise's
house? Definitely smaller.
>the insanity that you continually display.
You obsess about violence, you rave and lie, and *I* am the one who isn't
right? Uh, okay.
>I'll see you the next time you come to New Orleans, provided that I
>bring my own security. I would not trust you as far as I can spit
>you. So for that reason, I'll bring my own coffee.
You know, irrational fears of poisoning are a symptom of mental illness.
Again, this is projection - you know you all planned to do something to harm me
while I was in New Orleans, so now you claim that you need security. Uh, okay.
>By the way, I have my DOCTORATE in theology.
BWAHAHAHA! From where, the mail order diploma mill of East Oshkosh? You can't
even spell, for cryin' out loud.
>If you would like to confirm the bestowal of that
>HONOR, Please refer to Dr. K. Jefferies.
Let's have some contact information! When I used the information you all
provided to contact Marie Carmel Charles, she told me she didn't kanzo
Moellendorf and wasn't even in Haiti at the time. I'd love to talk with this
"Dr. Jeffries" person.
>I am tired of arguing with you now, back to making my flags for
>Society Abome.
I think that is a good idea, go make flags for Society Abomination, and sell
them at the Mistake Botanica. It will be good occupational therapy for you,
poor thing, and at least you will be making some honest money for a change.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>By the way, I have my DOCTORATE in theology. I shall post that along
>with other picture. If you would like to confirm the bestowal of that
>HONOR, Please refer to Dr. K. Jefferies.
Well, where is the contact information for Dr. K. Jeffries? By the way, I
suppose you wouldn't know, but you don't get a doctorate from a person, you get
it from an institution, like for example the University of Massachusetts. I
don't want a picture of you in your high school graduation robes (that is, if
you did graduate from high school), let's have the name of the institution at
least, and a phone number if possible. They do have phones at this place where
you got a "doctorate of theology" degree, don't they?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
(Mambo Racine Sans Bout) writes:
>Well, where is the contact information for Dr. K. Jeffries?
I'm still waiting! If you have a doctorate in theology, you will of course be
proud to tell us from what institution, and when, and how we can contact Dr. K.
Jeffries. What was the topic of your doctoral thesis? (A thesis, Jennifer, in
this context, is "a position or proposition that a person (as a candidate for
scholastic honors) advances and offers to maintain by argument" or "a
dissertation embodying results of original research and especially
substantiating a specific view; especially : one written by a candidate for an
academic degree."
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Jennifer?
Watch this:
I took my Master's degree from the University of Massachusetts.
See how easy that is?
Soooooo, where did you get this "doctorate of theology"?
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
I received my Doctorate in Theology from a religious institution.
What is your point? Again if you would like to speak with Dr.
Jefferies you may do so, you are at privilege to contact me once by
phone and I will give him your number or whatever so that you may
confirm the fact. Although I already know that you will deny it and
may even go so far as to say that HE too is a fraud, you are
definitely at privilege to do so.
Manbo D.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
You win, whatever. Bless your heart. I must say that my typos are
frequent, but, You get it.
Never mistake the fact Kathy that I am NOT afraid of you. Paranoid,
no. Informed, yes.
Stay tuned you will luv the flags.
Peace,
Manbo D.
soutini gwangenge
Very pitiful to see Vodou represented by such people.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
You, the post is still on the internet entitled "BLACKNESS" regarding
you!
Check it out.
Furthermore, THEY warned me about you. THEY were right! Oshun was
right, Ifa was right, Gran Bwa was right!
Since they, (by saying they, I mean everyone who had something to say)
did warn me about you, it further gave me reason to ensure that YOU
would not touch me at all.
I do not care who you like and guess what I don't think anyone else
does either.
Whatever time brings in regard to my relationships with anyone I have
met on my spiritual journey, it is of no consequence to you. Stay out
of my business, mind your own and maybe, just maybe you will find that
elephant in YOUR own backyard needs tending.
Manbo D.
For the record the art of Drapo making requires talent, skill,
competency, attention to detail and diligence. It is not to be taken
lightly, niether is it a labor that is to mocked. You arrogant snot!
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
I really have no idea whomelse in the USA has taken up the art of
making flags, but I doubt that you and I are the only ones. However,
what I have noticed though is that the materials that are used even in
Haiti from time to time vary. Maybe it is due to the available
resources or personal preferences, but I am not sure if there is a
standard set of material or resources guide that must be followed. I
have seen some BEAUTIFUL flags made out of material that is previously
sequined.
I think that the primary goal is to make sure the flags clearly
reflect the Lwa or spiritual energy that is in mind of the artist.
I have looked at several flags online and even the pictures that I
have from the flags in Haiti. From those points, I have been able to
come up with designs for flags.
Peace,
Manbo D
Zevaluz
>
>Hi Zevaluz,
>I really have no idea whomelse in the USA has taken up the art of
>making flags, but I doubt that you and I are the only ones.
Good! =) Usually online I only see mention of ones that have been
imported from Hati and are in a gallery, rather than a page of someone
who creates them.
>Haiti from time to time vary. Maybe it is due to the available
>resources or personal preferences, but I am not sure if there is a
>standard set of material or resources guide that must be followed.
I've been practicing on bridal gown satin, since anything that I'd use
personally doesn't have to stand up to being carried or moved much
(but would have to be able to be stored well). I can see where you'd
want ones that are reinforced or have very secure border stitching if
you were going to travel around. (so many ideas, so little time ;) )
>I have seen some BEAUTIFUL flags made out of material that is previously
>sequined.
I've thought about doing that, since I'd be making them for the
resulting beauty in them, and not necessarily as a way to give energy
to the loa that I'd be making the flag/banner for.
Which loa have you created them for so far? I'd like to do a very
pretty one for Erzulie Freda, but I have some things to learn about
sewing first before I seriously attempt it.
Happy Stitching to you =),
Zevaluz
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
IyaOsh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>I received my Doctorate in Theology from a religious institution.
WHAT INSTITUTION??
>What is your point?
My point is that I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! LOL! How can I find this Dr. Jefferies
person?
> Again if you would like to speak with Dr.
>Jefferies you may do so, you are at privilege to contact me once by
>phone and I will give him your number
I am not intereted in talking to YOU, I want to talk to HIM! I don't have a
phone number in Haiti, you can give this person my email, raci...@aol.com -
you certainly can't tell me that a professor of theology at "a religious
institution" doesn't know how to send an email. All colleges and universities
in the United States, and many in other countries, are online.
Actually, I would even settle for you telling me the name of this "religious
institution", I will be very surprised if it exists, is accredited, and has a
Dr. Jefferies on the faculty.
>Although I already know that you will deny it and
>may even go so far as to say that HE too is a fraud
Really? His qualifications are questionable? The "religious institution" is
questionable?
Look, you claim to have a "doctorate in theology". Where did you get it? It's
a very simple question, it doesn't require me to call you on the phone or give
you a phone number to contact me, it only requires an HONEST ANSWER. Where did
you get the "doctorate in theology" that you claim to have? What is the name
of the "religious institution"?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
(soutini gwangenge) writes:
>When lacking people to answer her, san bout writes to herself... what a busy
>mambo!
I am REPEATEDLY asking Ms. Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Dunni" "Iya Oshuntoki",
WHERE she got the "doctorate of theology" degree she claims to have.
<<<<<<<JENNIFER!>>>>>>
<<<<<WHERE DID YOU GET THAT "DOCTORATE"?>>>>>>
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
IyaOsh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>You, the post is still on the internet entitled "BLACKNESS" regarding
>you!
>Check it out.
Yes, many of us have seen that phoney-baloney fake "possession" by Baron,
swearing at "f*cking white people" and "f*cking Mambo Racine Sans Bout".
Baron, that is to say a REAL Baron, never, ever swears at people or abuses
people. That page is a real boon to me, because it demonstrates precisely how
inauthentic it's author is.
>Furthermore, THEY warned me about you.
So then why did you come? Why did you beg me and beseech me and whine and cry?
Why did you send me all those flowery words of praise after your kanzo? You
only stopped when you couldn't make the money you wanted, you thought you were
going to get rich in a big hurry without doing any work, and that is what is
killing you right up until today.
I can prove that what I say is true - all I need is your permission to publish
all emails and all Instant Message logs. If you were telling the truth and I
were lying, you would give it to me - but you won't give me permission,
PRECISELY because you know that I am telling the truth and you are lying.
> Gran Bwa was right!
I'm glad you think so, because if you will recall, Grand Bwa, in possession of
Houngan Danise David, told you and that whole kanzo group, over and over,
"Mambo Racine is your MOTHER, Houngan Danise is your FATHER, Mambo Racine is
your MOTHER, Houngan Danise is your FATHER, Mambo Racine is your MOTHER,
Houngan Danise is your FATHER...", over and over and over again!
> it further gave me reason to ensure that YOU
>would not touch me at all.
Jennifer, do you remember how we did your manje tet? I am not going to give
away the secrets of the djevo.
>I do not care who you like and guess what I don't think anyone else
>does either.
>Whatever time brings in regard to my relationships with anyone I have
>met on my spiritual journey, it is of no consequence to you.
Use 'em and lose 'em as usual, huh, Jennifer?
> Stay out
>of my business, mind your own
Do I make nasty posts about you on forums from which you are excluded? I am
woman enough to say what I have to say to and about you RIGHT HERE. That
reminds me, I am still waiting to hear you tell us all from what "religious
institution" you got your so-called "doctorate of theology", because I tell you
plainly that I think you are lying again.
>For the record the art of Drapo making requires talent, skill,
>competency, attention to detail and diligence. It is not to be taken
>lightly, niether is it a labor that is to mocked.
I am not mocking the process of making a drapo lwa, I am making fun of YOU!
You lie, you slander, you go and get hosting space for that little porno page
you made with my face superimposed on the bodies of tortured women and other
photos of black men's penises, for cryin' out loud, you try to set up
"charities" for Haitians with the intention of pocketing the money to pay for
your kanzo, you sleep with your initiator to try to get control of the money
and then when that doesn't work you try to blackmail him with threats of rape
charges! Of course it's easy to make fun of you when you try to pose as a
decent person.
Make flags! Soothe your fevered brain with simple, repetitive tasks. I hope
you even sell them! At least you would be making some honest money.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
IyaOsh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Never mistake the fact Kathy that I am NOT afraid of you.
I don't want you to be afraid of me, I want you to stop telling lies about me,
my initiates and my house!
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
Actually, I have just about completed the flag for Azaka. I think
that it has turned out pretty well. I kind of tried to stay with the
dark blues, greens, purples, reds and a little yellow for highlights.
So for my next attempt, I think I am going to do a Danballa. There is
much more color involved in that one, so I am pacing myself to see how
long it will actually take.
Do you use color blotches to assist your speed in making the flags? I
find that it is simpler to do it that way and then add the cotton
backed material to the satin. Kinda like a puzzle.
Good luck on you progress.
Manbo D.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>However,
>what I have noticed though is that the materials that are used even in
>Haiti from time to time vary. Maybe it is due to the available
>resources or personal preferences, but I am not sure if there is a
>standard set of material or resources guide that must be followed.
That's right, you don't know, do you? There is a lot more to making a Vodou
flag than sewing sequins on a piece of cloth.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Do you use color blotches to assist your speed in making the flags? I
>find that it is simpler to do it that way and then add the cotton
>backed material to the satin.
Here's a hint - in a flag that is completely sequinned, like two of the three
flags I am currently offering on Ebay, the sequins are not sewn on satin at
all. Maybe you should get yourself a REAL Vodou flag and see how it is done.
Zevaluz
>
>Well,
>Actually, I have just about completed the flag for Azaka. I think
>that it has turned out pretty well. I kind of tried to stay with the
>dark blues, greens, purples, reds and a little yellow for highlights.
It sounds very pretty =) I'm a color junkie, I admit though, if it
sparkles and has pretty colors, I'm there (much like birds). =)
>Do you use color blotches to assist your speed in making the flags?
My first trainer flag, I just outlined the veve on the satin and
sequined over it, then when I got to the heart, I stitched the sequins
freehand and filled it in later on with horizontal and vertical lines
(I'm not initiated, so I'm not positive how it's 'supposed' to look, I
just went from what I thought looked pleasing to my eye).
>Good luck on you progress.
Thank you! =)
Zevaluz
Zevaluz
>
>>In article <a95cfd78.02061...@posting.google.com>,
>>iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>
>>However,
>>what I have noticed though is that the materials that are used even in
>>Haiti from time to time vary. Maybe it is due to the available
>>resources or personal preferences, but I am not sure if there is a
>>standard set of material or resources guide that must be followed.
>
>That's right, you don't know, do you? There is a lot more to making a Vodou
>flag than sewing sequins on a piece of cloth.
>
>Peace and love,
Well, I'm creating mine for my own use from an artistic point of view.
I haven't seen anything in the way of information about how they are
constructed, I had thought that it was just a matter of personal
preference.
=(, I don't want to upset the loa by not doing it correctly, =(,
Zevaluz
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020610200535...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> In article <23597178.02060...@posting.google.com>,
> IyaOsh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>
> >HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >You, the post is still on the internet entitled "BLACKNESS"
> >regarding you!
> >Check it out.
>
> Yes, many of us have seen that phoney-baloney fake "possession" by
> Baron, swearing at "f*cking white people" and "f*cking Mambo
> Racine Sans Bout". Baron, that is to say a REAL Baron, never, ever
> swears at people or abuses people. That page is a real boon to me,
> because it demonstrates precisely how inauthentic it's author is.
Hm. I saw a possession by a Bawon in which he told the crowd "I
ain't here to talk to everyone. Back the fuck up!" Later on, someone
asked Bawon 'Can you tell me how my friend over on the other side is
doing.' At this point Bawon exploded. "Motherfucker, you KNOW your
friend ain't dead, he's standing right over there. Why you fucking
trying me like that. Sheeit!"
Based on your extensive experience in Haitian Vodou, would you say
that this was an inauthentic possession?
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPQVP96rZ1tz+tBxdEQK8PQCfRx9Cs6A/4lFBq364nyOyWGFsBzIAoJLg
G0ykHgP04KNd3Bae0Yd38tRu
=Rjne
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Zevaluz" <zev...@amphigory.com> wrote in message
news:3d064e88...@news.earthlink.net...
> Well, I'm creating mine for my own use from an artistic point of
> view. I haven't seen anything in the way of information about how
> they are constructed, I had thought that it was just a matter of
> personal
> preference.
>
> =(, I don't want to upset the loa by not doing it correctly, =(,
I can't imagine Freda being upset by a flag which cost you lots and
lots of time and money. Don't use anything black in it -- Freda
loathes the color black -- but other than that, your flag sounds
absolutely gorgeous and I'm sure she will be more than pleased to
have it prominently displayed in your home.
I have a Haitian flag for Freda hanging above her altar; I may put a
picture of it online soon. It is an absolutely stunning piece,
particularly when sunlight catches the sequins.
The fully sequined Haitian flags, btw, are never used in rituals.
They are too heavy and fragile to wave about as flags; instead, they
are typically sold to tourists as artwork. My Freda flag is fully
sequined: I have a couple of flags which are actual ritual flags,
including a Simbi Makaya and Minochan flag. This is not to say that
the fully sequined flags are "inauthentic" -- just that they are
decorative dwapo, not the sort of dwapo which are used in ceremonies.
Tapestries woven for castles were often as beautiful -- and had as
many religious themes -- as ecclesiastical tapestries.
(While I'm not initiated in Haitian Vodou, I am not unfamiliar with
the subject; I'm also a collector of Haitian art who specializes in
Dwapo Lwa).
>
> Zevaluz
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPQVWd6rZ1tz+tBxdEQJimACeMmyAUHL1EKSqyZEkoXZhrJrL/wgAoNUG
lKc4jbWy61H6wQNWkocz2izt
=vErN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
(Zevaluz) writes:
>Well, I'm creating mine for my own use from an artistic point of view.
>I haven't seen anything in the way of information about how they are
>constructed, I had thought that it was just a matter of personal
>preference.
No - but email me privately and I will tell you everything I know about
flagmaking. I used to sit around in peristyles and workshops where Houngans
and other artisans made them, and I used to design them and then have the
artisans sew them for me, so I know how they are made.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>Hm. I saw a possession by a Bawon in which he told the crowd "I
>ain't here to talk to everyone. Back the fuck up!" Later on, someone
>asked Bawon 'Can you tell me how my friend over on the other side is
>doing.' At this point Bawon exploded. "Motherfucker, you KNOW your
>friend ain't dead, he's standing right over there. Why you fucking
>trying me like that. Sheeit!"
>
>Based on your extensive experience in Haitian Vodou, would you say
>that this was an inauthentic possession?
Depends - did he smile when he said it? And was the friend really dead or not?
And how do you know that this was a Baron, and not a Mort? These are serious
questions, I would appreciate truthful answers.
I mean, I wasn't there, and I don't have a complete transcript or a videotape,
so... it's not so clear, like that bogus "Blackness" phoney Baron.
Sean Williams
>Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
>>Hm. I saw a possession by a Bawon in which he told the crowd "I
>>ain't here to talk to everyone. Back the fuck up!" Later on, someone
>>asked Bawon 'Can you tell me how my friend over on the other side is
>>doing.' At this point Bawon exploded. "Motherfucker, you KNOW your
>>friend ain't dead, he's standing right over there. Why you fucking
>>trying me like that. Sheeit!"
Heres on online account of a Bawon possession. Rather interesting in my view.
He has a dirty mouth in this report!
http://www.leperistylehaitiansanctuary.com/baron.htm
Please note: I know nothing of this organization other than what Ms. Grey has
relayed...something to fact that its a Disco Tech./Peristyle or something.
But I do remember some of my Logic 101 course...."consider the source" is
ringing in my head pretty strong about now.
Regards,
Sean
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>I can't imagine Freda being upset by a flag which cost you lots and
>lots of time and money. Don't use anything black in it -- Freda
>loathes the color black --
You have just contradicted yourself.
>The fully sequined Haitian flags, btw, are never used in rituals.
>They are too heavy and fragile to wave about as flags; instead, they
>are typically sold to tourists as artwork.
LOL! What nonsense. Partially sequinned flags were developed for the tourist
trade because they are cheaper and faster to make. The original sequinned
flags were made PRECISELY for ceremonial use, and the oldest examples I have
seen were not only completely sequinned but were somewhat larger (and therefore
heavier). They were carried on flag staffs with ornamented points, and the
type of point depends on the lwa being honored in that particular flag.
There is no substitute for experience, my friends.
> I'm also a collector of Haitian art who specializes in
>Dwapo Lwa).
In Haitian Creole, not every "r" is changed to a "w", doing that just makes you
sound like Elmer Fudd, siwwy wabbit.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>http://www.leperistylehaitiansanctuary.com/baron.htm
>
>Please note: I know nothing of this organization other than what Ms. Grey has
>relayed...something to fact that its a Disco Tech./Peristyle or something.
I have never said that it is a *discotheque* ! ("Disco Tech, my God - Sean,
what was the last grade you completed in school?)
You are probably confusing "Le Peristyle" in Philadelphia, run by Angela
Novanon (not her real name) with "Le Peristyle" combination nightclub and
tourist ceremony venue in Mariani, Haiti, run by Houngan Max Beauvoir. You are
a fine one to say "consider the source".
I hope EVERYONE goes and looks at that page, with that phoney Baron swearing at
"f*cking white people" and "f*cking Mambo Racine Sans Bout" - it is a perfect
example of a person who doesn't know how a particular lwa behaves, faking a
possession to attack a person she dislikes.
That is something else the lwa never do, by the way - if you showed up in our
peristyle right now and La Sirene was in my head, she would NOT say, "Sean, you
are damned and doomed for lying on Mambo Racine", because the lwa do not take
up for the personal issues of the person possessed.
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020611001957...@mb-fh.aol.com...
> >The fully sequined Haitian flags, btw, are never used in rituals.
> >They are too heavy and fragile to wave about as flags; instead,
> >they are typically sold to tourists as artwork.
>
> LOL! What nonsense. Partially sequinned flags were developed for
> the tourist trade because they are cheaper and faster to make. The
> original sequinned flags were made PRECISELY for ceremonial use,
> and the oldest examples I have seen were not only completely
> sequinned but were somewhat larger (and therefore heavier). They
> were carried on flag staffs with ornamented points, and the type of
> point depends on the lwa being honored in that particular flag.
Donald Consentino disagrees with you. Don't believe me? Read "Sacred
Arts of Haitian Vodou" -- he's got a whole chapter on flag-making,
complete with interviews, pictures and cites. The historic flags he
pictures are not fully sequined.
Of course, he's just an art professor with a Ph.D., while you're a
spammer and thief who lives with her parents... so I'm sure that your
opinion carries much more weight than his does.
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPQXQdarZ1tz+tBxdEQK0XACeIZhvuEP4aaTd2DVI+RIHr2tMjEcAoJD9
U5taku6wuMi5zAcC6u3la1pl
=C+SA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Zevaluz
>"Zevaluz" <zev...@amphigory.com> wrote in message
>news:3d064e88...@news.earthlink.net...
>
>I can't imagine Freda being upset by a flag which cost you lots and
>lots of time and money.
And pain in my fingers, dont' forget pain ;)
>Don't use anything black in it -- Freda
>loathes the color black -- but other than that, your flag sounds
>absolutely gorgeous and I'm sure she will be more than pleased to
>have it prominently displayed in your home.
Eh, I'm going to work on a fully new one soon, mine was my learning
flag, and it's not done, and there's a few spots on it that would need
to be fully redone. I liked it for a learning flag, my husband liked
it, but eh, I'm ready to move on to doing a real design. =)
>I have a Haitian flag for Freda hanging above her altar; I may put a
>picture of it online soon. It is an absolutely stunning piece,
>particularly when sunlight catches the sequins.
Oh, please do photograph it =) The 'net needs more beauty on it. =)
>(While I'm not initiated in Haitian Vodou, I am not unfamiliar with
>the subject; I'm also a collector of Haitian art who specializes in
>Dwapo Lwa).
It's definitely an interesting thing, and there's so much variation
from artist to artist. The flags that show depitions of the loa
directly are fascinating, and so are the ones that draw out the veve's
(I admit a bias towards the veve flags =) ).
Zevaluz
Kevin Filan
Hash: SHA1
"Mambo Racine Sans Bout" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020610233454...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> In article <8jcN8.8053$k85....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
> >Hm. I saw a possession by a Bawon in which he told the crowd "I
> >ain't here to talk to everyone. Back the fuck up!" Later on,
> >someone asked Bawon 'Can you tell me how my friend over on the
> >other side is doing.' At this point Bawon exploded.
> >"Motherfucker, you KNOW your friend ain't dead, he's standing
> >right over there. Why you fucking trying me like that. Sheeit!"
> >
> >Based on your extensive experience in Haitian Vodou, would you say
> >that this was an inauthentic possession?
>
> Depends - did he smile when he said it?
When he exploded at the man who asked him, he most certainly was
*not* smiling. When he told the crowd to back up, his demeanor was
more crotchety than angry. Basically, he acted like a cranky old
man: not smiling, but not particularly threatening either, if that
makes any sense.
> And was the friend really dead or not?
I honestly do not know. The person who got screamed at did not push
the line of questioning. I could not tell you whether this was
because his friend was really alive or because he was intimidated by
an angry old Black man screaming in his face.
> And how do you know that this was a Baron, and not a Mort?
I referred to him as a Ghede. I was later told by another person who
knew the horse that the spirit was in fact a Baron. Could you be
more specific as to how one would distinguish between a Baron, a
Ghede and a Mort?
> These are serious
> questions, I would appreciate truthful answers.
See above.
Peace
Kevin Filan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
iQA/AwUBPQXkZ6rZ1tz+tBxdEQKosgCfR1BI3erInreAhqPdv9JG1TFjzlQAn0L9
aGsi7Dny2NutBWMoVUIGvt4u
=pAhd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Zevaluz
>
>Heres on online account of a Bawon possession. Rather interesting in my view.
>He has a dirty mouth in this report!
>
>http://www.leperistylehaitiansanctuary.com/baron.htm
If you take the possession as a true one, then you also say that you
agree with the possession - that whites have no place in Vodou, and if
they do they are being culture vultures.
That seems to be the gist of what he is saying.
Zevaluz
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
Try the color blotches, a nice medium textured densely woven cotton,
it will be able to sustain the weight of the sequin and beads, then
sew the blotches on to the satin. It works very well, it doesn't take
a lot of time and you are able to balance the picture much more
effectively. Drapos are usually made on cotton anyway and have a
satin border. They are then backed with a rich velvet, heavily corded
and then fringed. They are then placed on a pole with an ornate metal
topper to finish them. They are HEAVY. But when used in a ceremony,
they are BEAUTIFUL.
You know what makes it even better? Try also an embroidery loom. In
Haiti, they do use a tool that would remind you of that, but it is
much larger, square and certainly more stable due to it sitting on the
floor. I just do not have the room for one in my home.
Stretch the cotton material over the loom. Draw and then outline your
picture, veve or whatever. Ensure that you have left about a 2"
boarder of cotton material around the entire periphery of the area
that you are using so that you will be able to finish the Drapo.
Identify the colors that you want to use. Section the color schemes
off. Complete the center focus of the Drapo, be it a lithograph of one
of the Lwa or a finished sketch of a veve that you want to use. If you
what to get really creative you can place a silk embroidered picture
of a lithograph in it, cover it though with a piece of heavy clear
plastic so that the threads will not fade over time or become stained.
You can use one of the lithographs that you have had enlarged if you
are making a big Drapo or a regular sized lithograph will do for a
smaller Drapo. Begin the outlines of the colors that you want to use
and fill them in. Next move to the borders that will section off the
colors, if you want to have a 3-D effect. When this is all done add
the satin border. Sew the cord and fringe on next and then the
velvet.
These few little techniques will prove not to be so hard on the
fingers. However the eye strain and sweat that goes into it will
certainly make you wonder if a prick of the finger is the lesser of
the three evils. :)
Since I sew an awful lot, especially ceremonial clothes, I have had to
work with a lot of satins, silks and rayon based material. These
materials are very slippery when you are trying to sew them without
some sort of stabilizer. The stabilizer helps to prevent the material
from stretching and sliding. Satin, in particular has the tendency do
these things when moisture and excessive manipulation of the material
occurs. Try it and let me know how it works out.
Hope these little helpful hints help.
Manbo D.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Thompson, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT "DOCTORATE OF THEOLOGY"? Just the name of the
"religious institution" will be sufficient.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>When he exploded at the man who asked him, he most certainly was
>*not* smiling. When he told the crowd to back up, his demeanor was
>more crotchety than angry. Basically, he acted like a cranky old
>man: not smiling, but not particularly threatening either, if that
>makes any sense.
Well, that sounds less like a Baron and more like a specific dead person.
>> And was the friend really dead or not?
>
>I honestly do not know.
Oh, well.
>> And how do you know that this was a Baron, and not a Mort?
>
>I referred to him as a Ghede. I was later told by another person who
>knew the horse that the spirit was in fact a Baron. Could you be
>more specific as to how one would distinguish between a Baron, a
>Ghede and a Mort?
There is a whole page about this on The VODOU Page - see Vodou Lesson 2 at
http://members.aol.com/racine125/vleson2.html .
Also, it's okay to ask a lwa, "Who are you?"
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>Partially sequinned flags were developed for
>> the tourist trade because they are cheaper and faster to make. The
>> original sequinned flags were made PRECISELY for ceremonial use,
>> and the oldest examples I have seen were not only completely
>> sequinned but were somewhat larger (and therefore heavier). They
>> were carried on flag staffs with ornamented points, and the type of
>> point depends on the lwa being honored in that particular flag.
>
>Donald Consentino disagrees with you.
Who cares? He's not God - he probably just hasn't seen any of the older ones,
stashed in the back of hounfors and under bilas. I have, in southern Haiti and
in the Artibonite.
>Of course, he's just an art professor with a Ph.D., while you're a
>spammer and thief who lives with her parents...
Donald Consentino is honestly mistaken, but you are a God-damned liar. I have
stolen NOTHING. Kevin, when you die, do you really want to face your Maker
with all these filthy lies on your conscience? We hope that day doesn't come
for a long, long time, I wish you a long and healthy life, but frankly, I would
fear to do as you do, because I don't want to die with those sorts of sins on
my cosmic balance sheet.
And Kevin, why does it bother you that I love my parents and they love me? I
mean, they live in Massachusetts and I live in Haiti, but you apparently think
I shouldn't visit them when I come back to the States for a few weeks - why is
that? And what does the fact that I visit my folks have to do with Vodou
flags?
Sean Williams
I am not suggesting anything! But I do find it odd,that a supposed Lwa would
make those comments about Racine!
In light of them,of course she would have to say the whole situation is a
farce!
I wonder if she is taking legal action against them and if not,why not?
If anything could be construed as slander...that could!
Sean
Zevaluz
>
>Zevaluz,
>Try the color blotches, a nice medium textured densely woven cotton,
>it will be able to sustain the weight of the sequin and beads, then
>sew the blotches on to the satin.
Right now I'm trying to get my technique a little more solid (It can
be a major pain to try to get sequins next to each other, but not
overlapping) before I move on - but ironically I am doing this on 100%
cotton fabric and finding it much easier than on the satin! =) Satin
slides about so much, but oh, it's so pretty! =)
>It works very well, it doesn't take
>a lot of time and you are able to balance the picture much more
>effectively.
I may do that on my first one, I'd like to incorporate some other
materials anyhow and that may be a good first 'real' project for me
(once I get the whole "don't leave gaps showing the fabric" thing down
pat =) )
>and then fringed. They are then placed on a pole with an ornate metal
>topper to finish them. They are HEAVY. But when used in a ceremony,
>they are BEAUTIFUL.
I bet they are! =)
>You know what makes it even better? Try also an embroidery loom.
I talked to my mother (a quilter) about the flagmaking, and bless her
heart she's sending me a spare 'lap' quilting loom that sits on the
floor and is around 18x18inch of working room =)
>Identify the colors that you want to use.
sidenote: (I found a source for some pretty sequins that I'm currently
drooling over:
http://www.ccartwright.com/index.html
-wipes drool from chin-)
>These few little techniques will prove not to be so hard on the
>fingers.
Heheh, it's mostly that I keep poking myself with the needle, but I
used to crossstich, so I'll get into the groove of knowing RIGHT where
the needle will come up again in time =) Hopefully.
>However the eye strain and sweat that goes into it will
>certainly make you wonder if a prick of the finger is the lesser of
>the three evils. :)
LOL! =)
>from stretching and sliding. Satin, in particular has the tendency do
>these things when moisture and excessive manipulation of the material
>occurs. Try it and let me know how it works out.
I will do that, I've saved this post so that when I finally get to the
'real' drapo, I can reply back to let you know how it went =)
>Hope these little helpful hints help.
Thank you again! =) May your needle fly effortlessly and your thread
never knot! =)
Zevaluz
Zevaluz
>
>In article <3d06ec21...@news.earthlink.net>, Zevaluz says...
>>
>>>On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 04:17:37 GMT, Sean Williams <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Heres on online account of a Bawon possession. Rather interesting in my view.
>>>He has a dirty mouth in this report!
>>>
>>>http://www.leperistylehaitiansanctuary.com/baron.htm
>>
>>If you take the possession as a true one, then you also say that you
>>agree with the possession - that whites have no place in Vodou, and if
>>they do they are being culture vultures.
>>
>>That seems to be the gist of what he is saying.
>>
>>Zevaluz
>
>
>I am not suggesting anything! But I do find it odd,that a supposed Lwa would
>make those comments about Racine!
Since what I've been told is that Vodou doesn't tend to exclude based
on race, and that the loa generally love us (but can be pissed off on
occasion), I'd wonder if it's real or not based on that solely. I
wasn't there, I try not to make any judgements on situations that I
wasn't there for.
>In light of them,of course she would have to say the whole situation is a
>farce!
Do you really believe the comments on race? Do you think someone who
is white can be called to Vodou and serve the spirits well and have a
mutually happy relationship with them?
If you are hesitant about everything else that was said in the
possession, then you may be hesitant that it was real. Perhaps it
wasn't a loa, perhaps it was an angry spirit of another sort.
I wasn't there, I don't know.
Zevaluz
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>Try the color blotches, a nice medium textured densely woven cotton,
>it will be able to sustain the weight of the sequin and beads, then
>sew the blotches on to the satin. It works very well, it doesn't take
>a lot of time and you are able to balance the picture much more
>effectively. Drapos are usually made on cotton anyway and have a
>satin border.
Incorrect and inauthentic. Of course a person can develop their own way of
making pseudo-Voodoo flags, why not?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<nos...@newsranger.com> writes:
>I wonder if she is taking legal action against them and if not,why not?
>If anything could be construed as slander...that could!
Sean, in order to sue for slander or libel, you have to prove damages. Despite
your best efforts under goodness knows how many earthlink screen names, despite
Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf and Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Dunni" "Iya
Oshuntoki" Thompson and Kevin Filan, despite Angela Novanyon, not one of you
band of sickos has been able to cause me any damages! LOL.
The one thing you have done is give me an education - as I have said before, I
come from decent, two-parent, monogamously faithful parents, a clean, safe and
peaceful home, a nice community. I spent my early adulthood in graduate school
and in professional employment, and traveled internationally quite early to
further my education and my professional development.
So, I guess I was naive, but I never really understood how many hateful,
jealous, greedy, deceitful, dishonest, untruthful and vicious people there are
in the world, or how they seem to find one another and stick together to do
their Satanic little schemes. In that sense I suppose I should thank you all,
you have really made me aware of things I didn't know before.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
(Zevaluz) writes:
>If you are hesitant about everything else that was said in the
>possession, then you may be hesitant that it was real. Perhaps it
>wasn't a loa, perhaps it was an angry spirit of another sort.
It was the "angry spirit" of Anglea Novanyon! LOL! Zevaluz, you wouldn't know
this because you weren't on Orishalist when it was housed on AOL, but shortly
after I put up the very first edition of The VODOU Page in 1996, poor Angela
decided that I was a threat, and embarked on the same sort of slander attack
you see going on here now. She lost, she quieted down.
Here is why the supposed lwa she chose is "Baron Criminal" (it's really
Kriminel, but whatever). Duing that time, Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Dunni"
"Iya Oshuntoki" Thomas was wanting to kanzo. She had also had some very
negative contact with Angela, and she came to me complaining that Angela had
somehow caused her father's house to burn down and her mother to get sick and
go broke and so on. I don't know if any of that was true, I only know that's
what she told me.
Anyway, she started carrying gossip back and forth between me and Angela's
people, trying to heat up conflict and sell secrets from one side to the other.
I told her over and over to chill out, that Angela was doing her thing and
she, Jennifer, should do hers, and that I wasn't worried about Angela, because
I was doing my thing too.
One day, Jennifer was very persistent, "Angela said this, what do you think?
Angela did that, what do you think? Why don't you put up a web page about her,
why don't you denounce her?" I wasn't interested. Jennifer veered the topic
to ancestors and Barons, and asked me very pointedly which aspect of Baron
dances in my head. I could tell she was up to something, so I told her, "Baron
Kriminel", which isn't correct, although of course I can call Baron Kriminel if
I need to.
Jennifer went off with that information, and two days later, PRESTO! There was
"Baron Criminal" screaming obscenities at "f*cking white people" and "f*cking
Mambo Racine Sans Bout".
LOL!
Mike
nos...@newsranger.com wrote on 6/10/02 11:17 PM:
> http://www.leperistylehaitiansanctuary.com/baron.htm
>
> Please note: I know nothing of this organization other than what Ms. Grey has
> relayed...something to fact that its a Disco Tech./Peristyle or something.
> But I do remember some of my Logic 101 course...."consider the source" is
> ringing in my head pretty strong about now.
>
> Regards,
> Sean
thats manbo angela's site.. the manbo angela that manbo dunni mentioned.
mike
--
Mike Rock
http://mikerock.dreamhost.com
Kathy Latzoni
"IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi" <Iyaosh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8a5a998.02061...@posting.google.com...
> You know what makes it even better? Try also an embroidery loom. In
> Haiti, they do use a tool that would remind you of that, but it is
> much larger, square and certainly more stable due to it sitting on the
> floor. I just do not have the room for one in my home.
> Stretch the cotton material over the loom. Draw and then outline your
> picture, veve or whatever. Ensure that you have left about a 2"
> boarder of cotton material around the entire periphery of the area
> that you are using so that you will be able to finish the Drapo.
> Identify the colors that you want to use. Section the color schemes
> off. Complete the center focus of the Drapo, be it a lithograph of one
> of the Lwa or a finished sketch of a veve that you want to use. If you
> what to get really creative you can place a silk embroidered picture
> of a lithograph in it, cover it though with a piece of heavy clear
> plastic so that the threads will not fade over time or become stained.
> You can use one of the lithographs that you have had enlarged if you
> are making a big Drapo or a regular sized lithograph will do for a
Hi Manbo Dunni,
Have you ever made any of the ceremonial bottles, or just the flags?
Most of the bottles which Kevin and I have, were purchased around here in
East Flatbush, Bklyn... they're usually made with pre-sequined fabric, which
is then wrapped around the bottle and glued. [Some of the more "folksy"
ones, have a different piece of fabric cut into a circle and glued to the
bottom as well...]
But I don't think that's the way they'd be made in Haiti. [You could think
of most of ours as "airport bottles" ;) , except that they're made by
Haitian-Americans, for the predominantly Haitian-American customers in their
shops -- so there's nothing that "touristy" about them, at all.]
Do you know how the bottles are made in Haiti? ...Or how would you make one
yourself?
I've seen instructions from an art class, which begin by stretching a new,
clean stocking over the bottle and sewing sequins to that. Altho then I'm
not sure how one would secure the stocking to the bottle, once the sewing
part is finished.
Or, I suppose I could do it the "diaspora way", and just glue sequined
fabric to the bottle -- or wind a broad, metallic ribbon around it, and
secure that with glue, instead. But it seems like even that could get a
little messy...
So, please let me know what your suggestions are. [ISTR that
David/Ogoubadagri was interested in making these too -- so, Dave, if you've
made any progress, I'd also welcome your comments... :) ]
Thanks,
Kathy L.
Kathy Latzoni
"Kathy S. Grey" <raci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020611131143...@mb-ce.aol.com...
> In article <dskN8.661$gS...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Kevin
Filan"
> <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
> >Partially sequinned flags were developed for
> >> the tourist trade because they are cheaper and faster to make. The
> >> original sequinned flags were made PRECISELY for ceremonial use,
> >> and the oldest examples I have seen were not only completely
> >> sequinned but were somewhat larger (and therefore heavier). They
> >> were carried on flag staffs with ornamented points, and the type of
> >> point depends on the lwa being honored in that particular flag.
> >
> >Donald Consentino disagrees with you.
>
> Who cares? He's not God - he probably just hasn't seen any of the older
ones,
> stashed in the back of hounfors and under bilas. I have, in southern
Haiti and
> in the Artibonite.
>
Well, if Donald Cosentino, PhD., isn't doing it for you -- maybe you've
heard of Tina Girouard, who's the author of the seminal _Sequin Artists of
Haiti_; a past artist-in-residence at the US Fabric Workshop and Museum; and
recipient of a grant from the NEA for her studies of Haitian drapo.
Here's what Girouard has to say on the subject, from her interviews with
flagmakers in Port-Au-Prince:
"While Tibout [the famed Bel Air sequin artist] remembered sequins from his
earliest days, he recalled a time when they did not adorn Vodou flags. In
those days, flags were patched together from pieces of shiny,
brightly-colored fabric -- satins, brocades, taffetas, velvets and fringes.
A veve or image for the lwa might be painted or appliqued onto the flag, and
a fringe added to its edges... Tibout's half-brother, Joseph Fortine,
referred to sequins as "stars" and insisted that sequins as we know them now
did not exist in his childhood. In the old days, he said, pieces of metal
and glass were attached to the background of painted or appliqued images."
Girouard then goes on to describe Fortine working on a Danbala flag: "After
completing the snake image and the abstract veve, he sprinkled the
background with sequins at random, allowing the satin to show. [next
emphasis mine] ***Ceremonial flags are still made this way, because a solid
sequined background makes the flag too stiff to drape from the staff or wave
with the dancer during rituals.*** "
[both quotes from _Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou_, Donald Cosentino, ed.,
UCLA Fowler Museum Press, 1995].
However, if you'd like to keep insisting that you know more about art than
Cosentino and Girouard put together -- it's a free country, I suppose...
By the way, I believe you *have* heard Cosentino's name before; didn't one
of your VodouArts subscribers write to him, for his opinion on whether she
ought to join your kanzo group???
Let me know if you need me to refresh your memory.
Regards,
Kathy L.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Latzoni" <latz...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> You know what makes it even better? Try also an embroidery loom.
A "loom" is a device used for WEAVING, not embroidery. You are talking about
an embroidery HOOP.
>> Stretch the cotton material over the loom. Draw and then outline your
>> picture, veve or whatever. Ensure that you have left about a 2"
>> boarder of cotton material around the entire periphery of the area
>> that you are using so that you will be able to finish the Drapo.
>> Identify the colors that you want to use. Section the color schemes
>> off. Complete the center focus of the Drapo, be it a lithograph of one
>> of the Lwa or a finished sketch of a veve that you want to use.
Naaaahhh.
Look, making Vodou flags is like any other work done by artisans - you learn it
by working in an experienced artisan's workshop, doing basic tasks and then
moving up to more complex ones as you gain skill. If you haven't been trained
by such a person, what can you know? You're just shooting in the dark.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Latzoni" <latz...@yahoo.com> writes:
>maybe you've
>heard of Tina Girouard, who's the author of the seminal _Sequin Artists of
>Haiti_; a past artist-in-residence at the US Fabric Workshop and Museum; and
>recipient of a grant from the NEA for her studies of Haitian drapo.
Yes, Tina is a friend of mine, in fact. We lived in the same Port-au-Prince
apartment complex, and I designed flags that were then seqinned by some of the
same artists whose work is featured in her book.
>Here's what Girouard has to say on the subject, from her interviews with
>flagmakers in Port-Au-Prince:
>
>"While Tibout [the famed Bel Air sequin artist] remembered sequins from his
>earliest days, he recalled a time when they did not adorn Vodou flags. In
>those days, flags were patched together from pieces of shiny,
>brightly-colored fabric -- satins, brocades, taffetas, velvets and fringes.
Certainly some people did that, before sequins were widely available. That's
fine! A lot of sequins became available because they were introduced by
manufacturers of of American consumer-goods manufacturers in Port-au-Prince
factories. Tiffany lamps, Spaulding baseballs, licensed Disney products, all
sorts of things were and are manufactured by low-paid laborers there.
The oldest *sequinned* flags I have ever seen were totally covered with
sequins, they were larger than the flags made nowadays, and they were carried
on staffs of a type which depended on which lwa was being honored.
When the flag-maker's trade became popularized for export and for the tourist
market, partially sequinned flags started appearing left and right. I will
show you two examples:
La Sirene Flag - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=882591491
This flag, although it only dates from the 1970's, is a good example of the
older style. It is quite large, it is very heavily sequinned, and it is also
richly beaded with other beads than seed beads - bugle beads, oval-shaped
"pearl" beads, gold metallic beads. The top border is doubled over and open on
the ends, so that a flag staff can be inserted.
Here is another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=882599183
This flag is a good example of the more recent, export trade style. It is
smaller, the sequins do not cover the entire surface (hence a colored fabric
backing is used, instead of the traditional backing used in fully sequinned
flags), it is lighter, and there is no place in the border to insert a flag
staff.
Joie
> Most of the bottles which Kevin and I have, were purchased around here in
> East Flatbush, Bklyn... they're usually made with pre-sequined fabric, which
> is then wrapped around the bottle and glued. [Some of the more "folksy"
> ones, have a different piece of fabric cut into a circle and glued to the
> bottom as well...]
> Or, I suppose I could do it the "diaspora way", and just glue sequined
> fabric to the bottle -- or wind a broad, metallic ribbon around it, and
> secure that with glue, instead. But it seems like even that could get a
> little messy...
Hi Kathy!
The bottles interest me, too. Have you found a good online resource
showing pictures of very many, or could you maybe put some pictures of
ones you've seen in shops up somewhere? (If you could and might need
space, I'd be very pleased to put some up on one of my own websites,
with full credit to you - or anyone else who may have some pictures to
gain a diversity of looks and techniques used). I am curious of the
different looks and methods being used. Your mention of using broad
metallic ribbon gets some creative ideas going for me, too! I envy you
being in New York and greater access to sources in the US.
Good wishes,
Joie
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
You need to get some serious help. Now you suggest that I caused
Manbo Angela to have a possession? LMAO!
Even if I could affect a possession, do you think that YOU of all
people would be worthy of such an honor?
You know there is a saying, "A dog that brings a bone will carry one."
You continue to go around and LIE and speak of things that are not
true, more than that you take statements made in confidence, twist
facts, add rubbish and then sit down at the garbage recycler you call
a computer to create a melting soapbox were you claim some authority
of righteousness and what a marvelous Mambo you are.
<sides aching with laughter>
You continue to make accusations against my mother who has never once
said a thing about you in any forum, public, private or otherwise.
But you insist on respect? That is laughable at best! Have I ever
once involved the fact that you revealed that your mother is/was an
alcoholic? Have I ever once stated the claims that you made regarding
your father being abusive to you? I believe that you are trying to
play the dozens. I am an adult and you might be, so there is no need
to bring people's families into this. Is that the BEST that you can
come up with? Are you so childish that now you want to result to my
momma is prettier than your momma? Have you digressed so far back in
your impish ways that the BEST that you can come up with, is to make
idiotic statements such as these? Are you so off centered in your
spiritual self that YOU can continually make insulting remarks
regarding elders? Are you so demented that the BEST that you can come
up with is to make a dig at me by using my mother to hurt me with?
SAD! PATHETIC! FOUL! DISGUSTING!
And you want the general public to "buy" and I mean that literally,
into your BOGUS, FRAUDULENT misrepresentation of VODOU and the
misnomer that you are a mambo. Your breath MUST stink all the time
from the feces you have for brains.
You then continually make all of these fake allegations that someone
other than your ridiculous self, brings up legal names and personal
business. You further insult the general public by stating that you,
being of saintly qualities has not been abusive to anyone. WHAT A
JOKE!
The thing that constantly reigns true is that, as a coward you want to
throw stones and hide your hand. You want to cause dissension and
turmoil. You want to agitate and aggravate. YET, in the midst of all
of this you cannot show up with your ASSon, stack of edited journals,
big bad govi or magical bottle and say these same things in anyone's
face. Your true colors show, green with envy and yellow striped back
coward.
You are a public farce, the stinch that rises off a dead man's stomach
and you think that anyone should believe, trust, have confidence or
confide in you? Insanity has NO boundaries. This is evident because
you are unlimited and relentless of your pursuit of indecency.
Your obsession with your self proclaimed achievements, which by the
way, each and every one of them YOU were terminated from, sex,
malicious vendetta, pure unadulterated lies and typos, consumes 24
hours of your miserable day.
Your admitted drug involvement and encouragement for the same, up to
and including hallucinogenic drugs, is nothing more than a reflection
of what you really are.
It would not surprise me in the least bit to hear that you encouraged
this same destructive behavior for the woman with the mental illness.
EXTORTION!
You wrongly influence a person to kouche when you knew full well that
a kouche was not the thing she needed. You then wrongly portray
yourself as some wonder worker who has "cured" her problem or even
helped her in any significant way, only to blame her situation on her
regression into the same emotional condition that she left with.
How much was/is her sanity worth to you? Do you yet encourage her to
go back and take the asson? You shameless gloating bully. Do you
frighten her still with punishment of the Lwa for misbehavior? But
when it comes to your 1099, your public displays of grandeur, and your
ability to be nasty, filthy and revolting to others, the sky is the
limit.
You sit somewhere making indecent remarks regarding Ati Houngan Max
Beauvior? YEAH RIGHT! We do know for sure that he has exquisite
knowledge regarding medicinal purposes for herbs, which is more than
we can say about you and your abuse of them.
Oh and by the way, did you know that right now in AFRICA they are some
bush priests who actually go and gather herbs and make medicines for
people who suffer from the violent, dreaded disease of AIDS.
Are you aware that it was a bush priest in AFRICA who picked the herbs
to make the medicine they now use in the fight against the Ebola
Virus.
Hmmmmmmmm, I wonder if on a few of the occasions that Houngan Beauvior
has been to AFRICA that he did take up the study of herbs for
medicinal purposes. I think that Ms. Amy Wientz should be writing
about you.
You blatantly lie and say that you encourage your godchildren to stay
out of your bantering, when it is clearly posted in your archives that
you asked the entire group on YOUR Roots Without End Forum publicly to
join google and comment in your defense. The message number is 2602,
it is dated for June 3, 2002, then in message 2607, dated June 4,
2002, you ask that they make a criticism or comment regarding a person
that they DO NOT know, these same people who have only been able to
formulate an OPINION based upon your lies, slander, defamation,
inaccurate information, misrepresentation and insane tirades.
COWARD!!!!!!!
I have made mistakes in my life, spiritual, personal and financial, I
am human. I do however have the ability to admit them, apologize for
them, learn from them and move on. Whatever my mistakes were, have
been and might be in the future have nothing to do with you. I do
know for sure that not being involved on any level with you is WISE.
You are a dangerous, vile, repugnant, disrespectful, loathsome
individual with behaviors which would lead anyone to believe are
manifestations of serious deep rooted, mental and emotional problems.
You need professional help. (Hence your name reflects.)
I again tell you, you sorry excuse for sagging skin, find yourself a
new occupation as your job here to cause infectious conflict,
confusion, turmoil and disgust with me, my immediate family, spiritual
family and spiritual affiliates, personal acquaintances and thos eof
whom I may be affiliated with will no longer be tolerated.
Someone please get the bug spray!
Back to making my flags...........
Have a good day!
Manbo D.
Zevaluz
>
>you asked the entire group on YOUR Roots Without End Forum publicly to
>join google and comment in your defense.
I took that as an advisement to the two who had posted positive things
about Mambo Racine on the list to post them publically if they wanted
those involved to see it.
I came here of my free will and posted that Mambo Racine was trying to
educate people, and that I appreciated it. I've seen very little
Vodou information on the 'net and seeing as how the 'net and through
books is the only way that I'm likely to get the information, I
appreciate it. I've Emailed her many times with what must sound like
petty and simple questions and she's always replied back with answers
and in sincerity.
I'm not an initiate of hers, and I'm not planning on being initiated
into any tradition. But I am thankful to her for information, and I
respect her for providing it.
>formulate an OPINION
But, unless we personally are involved in something and know beyond a
shadow of a doubt with our own eyes and ears what transpired, all we
know will always ever be opinion.
>Back to making my flags...........
I am working on procuring a floor hoop to use to make them with. =) My
mom may send me one, but she's been preoccupied so I may try to find
my own =)
Take care =),
Zevaluz
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
You know what, the bottle making thing, that is going to be serious.
:)
I think that the stocking idea is good though. There is glue at most
arts and crafts stores that will permanently secure material to glass.
I will go out and get some and do a little test run and see how it
works out.
The question is how do you get the sequine and beads on the bottles?
Well I have an idea. I am thinking that if you sequine the material
first, then place the material onto an already previously pasted
bottle, using an adequate amount of force to stretch the material
tauntly over the bottle that the material should adhere rather
securely. Then reinforce the seams of the bottle with a little nylon
thread and cover the seam with sequine. How about that? I say let's
try it and see what happens. In fact we can trade. :)
Peace,
Manbo D.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>The question is how do you get the sequine and beads on the bottles?
>Well I have an idea. I am thinking that if you sequine the material
>first, then place the material onto an already previously pasted
>bottle
LOL!
Authentic fabric-covered sequinned bottles made for the service of the lwa are
first covered with fabric. The design is lightly sketched on the cloth, and
then the bottle is sequinned carefully, row by row, in a spiral pattern working
down from the top or up from the bottom, in one long, continuous sequence (not
sequins, sequence, no pun intended). Sometimes a central design, like a vever,
will be worked first and then the background done around it, but not usually,
usually when the artisan comes to the point where, say, the red sequin should
appear on the black background, they sew that one down and go on to the next.
Sequins are generally held down with a seed bead, both for bottles and for
flags. That is to say, the thread comes up through the cloth from behind,
through the sequin, through the seed bead, down through the sequin again, and
down through the cloth.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
> Now you suggest that I caused
>Manbo Angela to have a possession?
I am not suggesting anything, I am saying quite plainly that you, serving as a
gossiping news-carrier, repeated to Angela that I had said that Baron Kriminel
is the aspect of Baron which I most serve, and that is why she chose to publish
her ridiculous, phoney, vulgar screed under the name of that lwa.
>You continue to make accusations against my mother who has never once
>said a thing about you in any forum, public, private or otherwise.
She claims to be a Mambo asogwe. She is not.
>But you insist on respect? That is laughable at best! Have I ever
>once involved the fact that you revealed that your mother is/was an
>alcoholic?
What? My mother has never been an alcoholic, neither my father, nor I. Why
are you saying stuff like that, do you think that lying on other people will
obscure the truth about you?
>Have I ever once stated the claims that you made regarding
>your father being abusive to you?
My father doesn't abuse me, my father LOVES me! I love him! I visit him twice
a year when I come home from Haiti, we go to movies and we picnic and we go
miniature golfing, and I cherish the time with him.
> Have you digressed so far back in
>your impish ways that the BEST that you can come up with, is to make
>idiotic statements such as these?
Projecting again, huh?
>And you want the general public to "buy" and I mean that literally,
>into your BOGUS, FRAUDULENT misrepresentation of VODOU and the
>misnomer that you are a mambo.
Services in the Roots Without End Society are always correct and authentic.
>Your breath MUST stink all the time
>from the feces you have for brains.
My, what a cultured, eloquent woman you are.
>The thing that constantly reigns true is that, as a coward you want to
>throw stones and hide your hand.
No, you and your cronies are the ones who post slander on forums closed to me,
and send slanderous emails to anyone who dares to hint they might be
considering initiation or other ceremonies or magical work with the Roots
Without End Society. You've been unmasked enough times, there isn't any
question about it.
>You are a public farce, the stinch that rises off a dead man's stomach
Why are you so vulgar?
>Your admitted drug involvement and encouragement for the same, up to
>and including hallucinogenic drugs
Dunni. I smoke weed, Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf smokes weed, YOU
smoked weed right in front of me at the Villa Monica in Jacmel, Haiti, in the
month of May, 1999.
>Do you
>frighten her still with punishment of the Lwa for misbehavior?
The lwa do not punish people for being mentally ill, they punish people for
breaking their vows of celibacy for 41 days, for disrespecting their initiators
and their houses, for revealing the secrets of the djevo.
>You sit somewhere making indecent remarks regarding Ati Houngan Max
>Beauvior? YEAH RIGHT! We do know for sure that he has exquisite
>knowledge regarding medicinal purposes for herbs
He may know something about herbs. He can not cure AIDS, as he has claimed.
Furthermore, pressuring clients and potential initiates into sexual reliations
is disgustingly piggish.
>Oh and by the way, did you know that right now in AFRICA they are some
>bush priests who actually go and gather herbs and make medicines for
>people who suffer from the violent, dreaded disease of AIDS.
Yes. It helps. It does NOT cure the disease.
>I think that Ms. Amy Wientz should be writing
>about you.
Write her and tell her, she knows me, we email sometiumes.
>You blatantly lie and say that you encourage your godchildren to stay
>out of your bantering, when it is clearly posted in your archives that
>you asked the entire group on YOUR Roots Without End Forum publicly to
>join google and comment in your defense.
I said, Jennifer, that IF people *in general* wanted to discuss it, they should
go to Usenet, and not respond on the Roots Without End Forum. My initiates,
specifically, are not requested to respond, I am the head of the household.
>I have made mistakes in my life, spiritual, personal and financial, I
>am human.
I'll say!
> I do however have the ability to admit them, apologize for
>them, learn from them and move on.
Yes, your behavior here proves that, right? BWAHAHAHA!
>You are a dangerous, vile, repugnant, disrespectful, loathsome
>individual with behaviors which would lead anyone to believe are
>manifestations of serious deep rooted, mental and emotional problems.
>You need professional help.
Again, Jennifer, what you are doing is called "projection". In fact, when you
were in Haiti I suggested that you get counseling and you agreed. You didn't
go, though.
>Someone please get the bug spray!
Again, this remark is indicative of your character and not much else.
Mike
including flags and bottles.. they had a binder out with photos of the
artists performing their craft.. and described what they basically did.. but
i forget.. if i can get down there i'll see if they still have those
materials and take a look and post..
Much love..
mike
in article d8a5a998.02061...@posting.google.com,
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi at Iyaosh...@yahoo.com wrote on 6/12/02 2:09
PM:
--
Mike Rock
http://mikerock.dreamhost.com
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Okay, let me give you guys some advice, since I _do_ make beaded and
sequined items. If you're just going to glue, you don't need a fabric
covering at all. If you're going to use a fabric foundation, remember
that neither your glue nor your thread will stretch. So trying to force
the finished item onto the bottle will likely break threads, loose sequins,
and generally be a frustrating mess. I would suggest if you want to sew
the sequins down, to carefully sew your stretchy cover directly onto the
bottle (yes, by hand), then use a curved upholstery needle to sew down
the sequins. This is exactly how some sequined and beaded hats are made.
Another thought is using sequin "chain" trim. It's a long strip of sequins
that have been machine-stitched together. Those are much easier to glue
and/or sew down, especially for borders, straight lines and solid area fills.
Personally, if I'm going to embroider a cover for an item, I do _not_ use
stretch fabric, because the stuff doesn't support the weight of sequins and
beads well. It also means that my cotton foundation is fitted to the item
with a minimal amount of stretching and pulling, as well as often having
a fusable interfacing backing for more stability. If you're going to go to
all that work, you might as well make sure it stays together past the first
time you use it. Also keep in mind that some glues dissolve when exposed
to alcohol.
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert l...@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
Kathy Latzoni
just...@volcanomail.com (Joie) wrote in message
news:<75cf2530.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Well, I hate to keep going back to Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou -- but
that's probably the best collection of Haitian sequin art [both bottles
& flags] which I've seen online so far...
Gran Bwa bottle: http://www.fmch.ucla.edu/Exhibits/v9a.htm
Two different Ogou bottles: http://www.fmch.ucla.edu/Exhibits/v5a.htm
There's also an Ezili Danto bottle in the middle of this page, but
you'll need to scroll down a bit:
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfrb/haitianvodou.htm
And a small picture of a Danbala bottle in the middle here:
http://152.1.96.5/jouvert/v3i12/vodou.htm
And, here are some bottles made especially for giftshop/tourist
consumption -- they're obviously not the same as the "liturgical" ones, but
they're
still lovely:
http://www.world-art-galleries.com/Vodou%20Bottles.htm
http://www.csicop.org/skeptiseum/Superstitions.html#Haiti
> or could you maybe put some pictures of
> ones you've seen in shops up somewhere? (If you could and might need
> space, I'd be very pleased to put some up on one of my own websites,
> with full credit to you - or anyone else who may have some pictures
to
> gain a diversity of looks and techniques used).
Thanks very much for the offer! :)
Kevin just picked up a new camera, so we're actually taking pictures of
some of the bottles, and other art objects, we've got around the house --
I'll be sure to let you know when we've developed and scanned them...
> Your mention of using broad
> metallic ribbon gets some creative ideas going for me, too!
Great, we'd love to see what you come up with!
> I envy you
> being in New York and greater access to sources in the US.
>
Are you posting from another country, Joie?
Hope to hear more from you soon.
Honor & respect,
Kathy L.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
writes:
> I would suggest if you want to sew
>the sequins down, to carefully sew your stretchy cover directly onto the
>bottle (yes, by hand), then use a curved upholstery needle to sew down
>the sequins. This is exactly how some sequined and beaded hats are made.
And that is exactly how traditional sequinned bottles are made in Haiti.
:-)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
bottles and glued to them are fairly recent, and they are tourist trade
bottles. Real, authentic bottles of the sort made for decades in Haiti, for
the service of the lwa, are not made in this way.
The problem is that Haiti's economic situation has gone from awful to abysmal
to catastrophic. The time and money it takes to make a bottle, sequin by
sequin, is more than the person can hope to sell the bottle for, especially if
the buyer is another Haitian.
Things have gone so far downhill, in fact, that now people are covering bottles
with canvas cloth and just painting designs on it. I have even seen one artist
that covers the bottles with woven colored wire, you know, the fine, fine wire
with colored insulation you see inside telephone switching panels.
Joie
> just...@volcanomail.com (Joie) wrote...
<snips throughout>
Kathy, thanks so much for your friendly response. You and Kevin must
use a better search engine than I do. I haven't seen these websites
before!
> Well, I hate to keep going back to Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou -- but
> that's probably the best collection of Haitian sequin art [both bottles
> & flags] which I've seen online so far...
Impressive, yes.
> And, here are some bottles made especially for giftshop/tourist
> consumption -- they're obviously not the same as the "liturgical" ones, but
> they're
> still lovely:
>
> http://www.world-art-galleries.com/Vodou%20Bottles.htm
This also had several nice pics of flags!
> Kevin just picked up a new camera, so we're actually taking pictures of
> some of the bottles, and other art objects, we've got around the house --
> I'll be sure to let you know when we've developed and scanned them...
Please do. I think it would be fun to post pictures of Haitian art and
bottles and flags, and perhaps also some methods of making them for
those interested. I am talking with a Mambo now who is quite
knowledgeable about it, and so perhaps we'll end up with a nice little
resource for those who express their love for the Lwa through crafts
and handmade items.
> Are you posting from another country, Joie?
Har har! No, I didn't mean to infer that I was (grin), though
sometimes this backwood seeming area feels like it! I drive a few
hours to NOLA when I need relief and am very excited to see New
Orleans Mistic open up. I was there right before they opened and while
the stock received by then was small, it was quite nice. (I still
managed to buy a lot!) Very impressive array of fresh herbs. I'm
hopeful to see more artwork than most botanicas seem to carry at that
shop. The plans sound really good and it was a most excellent
beginning. I used to just target F&F's basically. I have to obtain
most of my items from NOLA or my Mambo in NY. One of these days I need
to go up there and just do the tourist thing (smile).
>
> Hope to hear more from you soon.
ditto. You're welcome to private if you'd like to know what website
and all that. It's still a work in progress.
>
> Honor & respect,
and to you!
Joie
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
smoked weed right in front of me at the Villa Monica in Jacmel, Haiti,
in the
month of May, 1999."
Kathy,
Look, you are sadly mistaken or boldly stating inauthentic/inaccurate
information.
I do do not even know the word or term used for marijuanna in kreyol,
nor do I care to. I would not know where to go in Haiti to find
marijuana if my life depended on it. You asked me if I smoked, I told
you no. I then asked you if it was illegal in Haiti, you said yes.
You must know that I am not willing to risk my freedom over a joint.
Nor would I care to have to call my family, or any of my friends that
live in Haiti, to come and get me out of jail due to engaging in drug
use.
I asked you not to do so in my presence, just as another santera and
babalawo did. As a matter of fact, while in Haiti every time you
smoked a joint I left the area. I respected your right to do whatever
you chose to do, especially since it did not affect me.
While we were in the djevo, this same activity continued. The same
santera, babalawo and myself simply covered our heads and koulye in an
effort to avoid the exposure.
I am a santera for more than 17 years now. Since the age of 5, I have
had my collares, ilekes, beads. I was prevented/banned from engaging
in that activity since that time, when did I smoke the joint when I
was 4? Not just that, but my other religious initiation vehemently
prohibits it.
As a Health Care Professional. I must submit to bi-annual drug
screens. This is inclusive of urine and hair. Golden Seal and
Ecchinecea shows up in urine. You are unable to bring in urine due to
the fact that during drug testing the urine must be a certain
temperature. Chlorine drops being added to the urine will change the
ph.
I personally do not care Kathy if you smoked a tree! I would not care
if you got so high that you needed a boulder in your drawers to hold
you down! I have NEVER smoked a joint and to be quite frank, I
DISPISE the smell. It stinks! I can't even stand cigars.
My battle is with Newport 100's. It is too expensive and I would
rather spend the money on some perfume or to buy myself somemore
jewelry. Plus, cigarette smoke does not allow for much breathing
capacity, rather lung expansion when you are singing at ceremonies.
I do not even drink strong alcohol. Anything beyond champagne and it
MUST be sweet, so I prefer pink, a mixed fruity, coffee or chocolate
based drink, I do not engage. The only time that I even touch rum,
clarin, gin, whiskey or the like it is for the Orisha, Lwa, Egun and
other spirits.
Do not include me in that mess.
As far as Houngan Aboudja goes, I do not know if he has ever smoked a
joint in his life. I do not care, again that would be on him. I do
KNOW for SURE that he has NEVER done so in my presence and neither
have I even heard of him doing so. I also know for sure that during
the times of religous functions, that Houngan Aboudja has never smoked
a joint, as a matter of fact, he prohibits it on the premises.
Kathy, look you have problems with me and that is fine. Viv la
guerre! However, I really think that this has gone on long enough. I
do not like you at all and I am sure that your sentiments are the same
regarding me. Think of it as a money saving issue at Christmas time.
I rarely post and when I do it is because you have included me in the
discussion. If you keep me out of your business and withbusiness as
it may relate to others, if you would not even refer to me in anyway
in any of your discussions, diatribes, conferences, personal
references,lectures,teaching references, material or whatever,
private, public or otherwise, I will be more than happy to extend to
you the same courtesy.
As a matter of fact, I would really appreciate it if you took me, any
image or likeness of me, any refernce, writings, recording, visual
and/or audio, any commentary, or suggestion of me off your website. I
am sure that you have far more interesting experiences to speak about
and I am sure that you have others that will be more supporting of you
and your efforts than myself. I am certain that you could use the
space for something more creative, add an audio file, add somemore
graphics or something like that.
If in time, you would really like to KNOW the TRUTH and DISCUSS with
me anything, then feel free to contact me via email and I will be
willing to speak with you at that time.
Until then........
Be strong and take care of yourself
Manbo D.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
>I do do not even know the word or term used for marijuanna in kreyol,
>nor do I care to. I would not know where to go in Haiti to find
>marijuana if my life depended on it.
You got it from your man, Frantzo, and your other man, Frantzo's cousin Johnny.
You sat right there in front of me and smoked weed with them! Why are you
lying? I don't think there is anything wrong with smoking weed and I would not
have "outed" you if you didn't make such an issue of it.
You also know that Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf smoked weed, becaues
you were there when he did. He admitted it right here on this forum, saying
that he did it to "settle his stomach" and that's all... next we will hear you
all saying that you didn't inhale! LOL!
What a hypocrite.
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
Ok, so how would you secure the material to the glass and allow for
the beading? If the material is tauntly pulled around the bottle and
then secured with seam reinforcement, how would you be able to get the
sequine and beads on? Should we use and invisible stiching appraoch?
Manbo D.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
If you use a stretch material, It will have enough give for you to get
the needle in and out. Using a curved needle makes it easier to bring
the needle back up in a short space. Once you've sewn a couple rounds
of sequins, the material won't come off, because it no longer stretches
where you've stitched. Unless you use elastic thread, which I wouldn't
recommend. If you use non-stretch material (like the Ezili Danto bottle
referenced earlier), you'll have to fit the material to the bottle, but
don't sew that last seam. Go ahead and embroider it off the bottle. When
you're done, fit it around the bottle and slipstitch the covering closed.
Since it doesn't stretch, it won't be coming off the bottle.
You will have to shape your fabric foundation to fit the bottle, which is
why most craft books suggest using stretch fabric. It's eaiser, and you
don't have to use shaped pieces to match the shape of the bottle. Most
bottles require more work than just a cylinder-shaped piece of fabric.
I'd suggest the easiest method is to make a cylinder of fabric the same
height as the entire bottle. Slit the fabric down to where the bottle
begins to taper at the neck. Now, overlap the slitted fabric so it
fits tightly to the bottle. Use a ladder or slipstich to secure your
darts, making sure to fold the raw edges underneath as you sew. This
method is best done the first couple times by pinning the pieces together
or using tape to hold the pieces together while you stitch. You'll end
up with a bottle-shaped piece of fabric. If you haven't closed the side
seam, you can slip it off to embroider it in the hand. You can also just
go ahead and embroider it on the bottle, but most people find that much
harder to do.
Upon rereading, let me clarify:
When you slit the fabric to make it fit to the bottle neck, make
sure you have made at least four sections to use while overlapping (so
three slits). If the bottle is small, you may be able to get away with
fewer overlapping sections. However, the more sections you use, the less
lumpy your final results will be. The cheap and sleazy alternative is to
wrap your excess fabric in embroidery floss or some cotton thread, winding
it down tight to the bottle neck. In that case, you _will_ have to do
your embroidery on the bottle.
Kathy Latzoni
raci...@aol.com (Kathy S. Grey) wrote in message
news:<20020613015306...@mb-cj.aol.com>...
> The bottles made with brocaded or sequinned fabric just wrapped
around the
> bottles and glued to them are fairly recent, and they are tourist
trade
<and then>
> The time and money it takes to make a bottle, sequin by
> sequin, is more than the person can hope to sell the bottle for,
especially if
> the buyer is another Haitian.
Erm, first you call these "tourist trade bottles" -- and then you're
describing the potential buyer as "another Haitian".
Which is it?
As I mentioned in my original post: the bottles with pre-sequined fabric
which I've purchased in Brooklyn, were made by Haitian-Americans, for
Haitian-Americans. [I have yet to see another "blan" shopping at Marche
Laurent, for example, or Le Clavicule Du Roi Salomon -- except for Kevin,
myself and the friends whom we've brought there. So, I seriously doubt
that any of their products are meant for the "tourist trade"...]
> I have even seen one artist
> that covers the bottles with woven colored wire, you know, the fine,
fine
wire
> with colored insulation you see inside telephone switching panels.
>
Sounds fascinating; but are you sure that he was using wire b/c he couldn't
afford to make sequined art bottles?
I've been told that a Vodou bottle which is bound with wire or string, might
have a different use entirely.
Regards,
Kathy L.
Kathy Latzoni
"IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi" <Iyaosh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8a5a998.02061...@posting.google.com...
> Hey Hon',
> You know what, the bottle making thing, that is going to be serious.
> :)
Yep, from the discussion that you and Lee T.-H. are having, I think I shall
retire for now, and leave it to you hardcore seamstresses... <:)
> I say let's
> try it and see what happens. In fact we can trade. :)
Well, I think a "little somebody" has got a different present in mind for
you -- but that won't be until we see you in GA.
Please do post some pictures of your own bottles, though! [That goes for Lee
too. ;) ]
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Latzoni" <latz...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Erm, first you call these "tourist trade bottles" -- and then you're
>describing the potential buyer as "another Haitian".
>Which is it?
Either one, come to think of it! The hungry bottle-maker can not afford to
spend the time and buy the sequins in the first place, and worse if they can't
find a tourist to pay a higher price.
>> I have even seen one artist
>> that covers the bottles with woven colored wire, you know, the fine,
>fine
>wire
>> with colored insulation you see inside telephone switching panels.
>>
>
>Sounds fascinating; but are you sure that he was using wire b/c he couldn't
>afford to make sequined art bottles?
Yes. These were not bottles wrapped in the course of making wanga.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
There have been a few bids on the Vodou flags below, but they don't meet the
minimum, so you can still snap up a beautiful and valuable flag at a reasonable
price.
Here they are again:
They're beautiful, they're collectible, they're valuable, and good ones are
hard to get. These three flags are from the private collection of Mambo Racine
Sans Bout, raci...@aol.com. Imported from Port-au-Prince, each is a superior
quality example of this highly respected craft. Listings include photographs
so you can see the beautiful colors and designs of these flags.
There are three flags on Ebay right now, and the auction only lasts one week,
so go and have a look!
La Sirene Flag
This very large (36" high x 31" wide), superlatively high quality Vodou flag
depicts the lwa La Sirene, goddess of the sea. La Sirene holds a trumpet, and
her tail has multicolored scales. Her deep blue body shimmers against a silver
background. The fabric backing is of superior quality, and the flag is
bordered in deep red satin. This flag originally came from the estate of a
Houngan, dated from the 1970's based on the extreme richness of the beading,
which includes bugle beads and pearl beads as well as the usual seed beading
anchoring the sequins. This is a collector's piece, much more valuable than
the usual commercially available work.
URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=882591491
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Erzulie Freda Flag
This charming and colorful flag depicts the vever, or sacred insignia, of the
lwa Erzulie Freda, goddess of love, luck and luxury. It is sewn deliberately
to allow the pink satin backing to show between the sequins. Shades of
lavender, gold, blue and pale green enliven an authentic design rendered with
great creativity. Size is 30" high x 28" wide .
URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=882599183
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Dambala Wedo Flag
This unusual piece depicts the lwa Dambala, the serpent lwa of creation, in a
mirrored design. Two scarlet serpents on a glinting white background flank the
sacred palm tree of the lwa Ayizan, a common motif in Vodou. The heart-shaped
insignia of the lwa Erzulie Freda is also incorporated. Artist's initials "J.
M." are worked into the design near the bottom. The border design is red,
black and white, and the flag is edged in red satin.
URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=882600776
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi
cousin Johnny.
You sat right there in front of me and smoked weed with them! Why are
you
lying? I don't think there is anything wrong with smoking weed and I
would not
have "outed" you if you didn't make such an issue of it.>>
Sad simply sad! I do not know the word or term for marijuana, yet I
was able communicate and then request someone or two get purchase it
for me. Clearly I am outed!
<<You also know that Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf smoked weed,
becaues
you were there when he did. He admitted it right here on this forum,
saying
that he did it to "settle his stomach" and that's all... next we will
hear you
all saying that you didn't inhale! LOL!>>
I have never witnessed, read or heard of Houngan Aboudja smoking
maijuana. I stand by what I have said.
<<What a hypocrite.>>
Indeed!
Manbo D.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Iyaosh...@yahoo.com (IyaOshuntoki/Manbo C. Lavi) writes:
I wrote, of Jennifer Clarissa Dunlap "Dunni" "Iya Oshuntoki Thompson's
marijuana use:
><<You got it from your man, Frantzo, and your other man, Frantzo's
>cousin Johnny.
>You sat right there in front of me and smoked weed with them! Why are
>you
>lying? I don't think there is anything wrong with smoking weed and I
>would not
>have "outed" you if you didn't make such an issue of it.>>
>
>Sad simply sad! I do not know the word or term for marijuana, yet I
>was able communicate and then request someone or two get purchase it
>for me.
You didn't know the word for "let's screw" either, but you managed that with
the two of them just fine. Stop playing innocent. You smoked marijuana, in
front of me, with Frantzo and his cousin Johnny, at the Villa Monica hotel, in
the Portail Leogane area of Jacmel, in the spring of 1999.
> Clearly I am outed!
Yep.
It's a habit with you. You do something, you deny doing it, and then you
accuse someone else of doing it instead.
I personally don't care if you smoke weed or screw a dozen men a night, what I
don't like is when you slander me as a "drug addict" because I smoke herb, and
then claim that you do not.
><<You also know that Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf smoked weed,
>becaues
>you were there when he did. He admitted it right here on this forum,
>saying
>that he did it to "settle his stomach" and that's all... next we will
>hear you
>all saying that you didn't inhale! LOL!>>
>
>I have never witnessed, read or heard of Houngan Aboudja smoking
>maijuana. I stand by what I have said.
You sat right there in the house I rented for your kanzo group, with Mark
Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf and I, while he smoked weed. This happened in
Cyvadier, Haiti in August 1999, and Moellendorf has admitted it right here on
this forum. In this case, I stand by what HE has said! LOL.