Hindu Deities and Trinidad Orisha Worship
Kevin Filan
I recently purchased *Spirit, Blood and Drums: the Orisha Religion in
Trinidad* by James T. Houk (Philadelphia: Temple University Press,
1995). If you can find this book, I highly recommend it. There has
always been a large Indian presence in Trinidad (in 1988 42.17% of the
population was of Indian descent, while 38.76% were of African descent),
but according to Houk only recently has there been any appreciable
blending of the two traditions in Trinidadian Orisha worship.
The following excerpt comes from pp. 88-9 of Houk's book. Before
posting this, I should note that I have never been to Trinidad and that
I am not personally familiar with Trinidadian culture or worship. IIRC,
we have one poster on alt.religion.orisha from Trinidad: any comments or
corrections he might have are, of course, welcomed.
Peace
Kevin Filan
* * * * *
As with other borrowings, the incorporation of Hindu elements into the
Orisha belief system characteristically takes different forms around the
island. Worhsippers usually simply superimpose the borrowed elements
onto Orisha beliefs and practices. Typically, one finds at an Orisha
shrine a small area devoted to one or more Hindu deities. This area
generally contains statues, statuettes, and large poster representations
of the deities and an assortment of Indian brass receptacles, candles,
incense and other materials.
Among the Hindu deities most commonly found in Orisha worship are
Hanuman, Mahabir, Lakshmi, and Rama. Because virtually all the Hindu
deities borrowed by Orisha are popular figures in many public Hindu
festivals and ceremonies in Trinidad, even the most uninterested African
will have some familiarity with them. Hinduism also manifests to a
small degree in the form of Osain (also referred to as Osanyin or Osa),
who clearly has Yoruba origins and can be found in Orisha compounds all
over the island, but whose shrine is often surrounded with Hindu
religious materials. Osain, sometimes referred to as "the Indian man,"
is, however, formally syncretized with Saint Francis (see Chapter
Thirteen).
Although Hindu-Orisha syncretism is rare, a few of the more
knowledgeable worshippers do speak of an association between particular
Hindu deities and African orisha. The perceived similarities of the
gods of both groups allow for a syncretism similar to the associations
worshippers have made between the Catholic saints and orisha. Leader
Scott noted the following pairings (the Orisha are listed first):
Ogun/Mahabir (or Hanuman), Osain/Mahadeo, Oya/Parvati, Oshun/Lakshmi,
Mama Lata/Pahrmisar, Shakpana/Durga, Eshu/Dee and Obatala/Ganesha.
Noorkumar Mahabir and Ashram Maharaj (1989, 194) also mention
syncretisms involving Ogun and Hanuman or Mahabir, and Oshun and Ganga
Mai.
Nevertheless, in regard to the group as a whole, the relationship that
exists between the Orisha religion and Hinduism is not a purely
syncretic one. Only a few Orisha worshippers, such as Leader Scott,
recognize a syncretism involving African and Hindu deities. Personal
conceptions of relationsihp between various gods and spirits, involving
as they do the association between concepts and beliefs of different
religious traditions such as Catholic and African, or Hindu and African,
reflect a sophisticated understanding of different belief systems as
being functionally equivalent on some level.
In addition to "mainstream" Hinduism, there is another form of Hindu
worship in Trinidad wbhich resembles Orisha worship: the Kali-Mai
("black mother") sect also practices ritual possession and animal
sacrifice. The Kali-Mai sect tends to be associated with the
darker-skinned Madras people, and mainstream Hindus consider such
worship "primitive" and "uncivilized." According to William Guinee
(personal communication) -- a folklorist who worked with Hindus in
Trinidad -- as well as Leader Scott and many of the older Hindus,
Kali-Mai worship was village-based at one time, and its practice was
widespread. Through time the sect gradually lost its appeal but has
begun to make something of a comeback, although probably in altered
form. For example, a large and elaborate temple in St. Augustine, only
recently constructed by Kali-Mai worshippers, draws two to three hundred
people every Sunday.
It is interesting to note that although African participation in
mainstream Hinduism is virtually nil, some 7 or 8 percent of those
attending Kali-Mai services are African. It may be the strong emphasis
that the Kali-Mai sect puts on healing that attracts the Africans. At
the four Sunday services I attended, it appeared to me that the Indian
worshippers welcomed the Africans with an openness that is apparently
uncommon at the ceremonies of mainstream Hinduism.
There is little or no actual association between the Kali-Mai sect and
the Orisha religion, but worshippers from each group are supportive of
or at least sympathetic to the religious practices of the other.
--
Now in the graveyard of my secrets there's a hope buried beneath
All this talk of peace and righteousness as left me weary beyond belief
And there's this unwanted mistress in my bed late at night
She says "I know you're a criminal
-- you been on death row all your life."
- Bill Mallonee
Eoghan Ballard
the subject. Houk's book is not bad, but there are many areas in which his
conclusions may be debated and other authors, especially those with a
stronger connection to the island have very different views and also very
different data.
That is not to say his book is weak. It happens to also be a fairly
interesting read, but it is a small and somewhat skewed sampling in some
ways. I am not really sharp on all the details as it is something I have
looked at only sketchily of late, but I would advise you to dig deeper
before going off to post a ton of information.
Eoghan
Kevin Filan
says...
>
>You make the error of assuming that one author has a full perspective on
>the subject. Houk's book is not bad, but there are many areas in which his
>conclusions may be debated and other authors, especially those with a
>stronger connection to the island have very different views and also very
>different data.
I thought his observations were interesting not because they were comprehensive
but because they were the *only* thing I had seen written on the subject. Any
other references you can give in re Trinidad Orisha worship would be greatly
appreciated.
I did note some problems with Houk's views re the development of "Trinidad
Kaballah." He apparently believes the Kaballah as practiced in Trinidad today
has its roots among early French and Spanish settlers who brought the *Zohar*
and suchlike over with them. Based on what little information he presented
regarding Trinidadian Kaballah practitioners, I think it far, far more likely
that their Kaballah came from DeLaurence Publications and suchlike. (Very few
Rabbis, be they Sephardic or Ashkenazic, are going to recognize A.E. Waite's
*Book of Black Magic and Pacts* as a valuable text).
>That is not to say his book is weak. It happens to also be a fairly
>interesting read, but it is a small and somewhat skewed sampling in some
>ways. I am not really sharp on all the details as it is something I have
>looked at only sketchily of late, but I would advise you to dig deeper
>before going off to post a ton of information.
As I said: I presented this mainly because at the time it was the first material
I had seen regarding these traditions. I'm hoping to get a more firsthand look
at Spiritual Baptist services at some point in the near future: there are
numerous S.B.C.s within easy walking distance of my house.
Peace
Kevin Filan
"My country, right or wrong," is a thing that no patriot would think of
saying expect in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother,
drunk or sober." - G.K. Chesterton
E. C. Ballard
I am not in a position to assess his conclusions about the Zohar. On the
one hand I am inclined to agree with you about DeLaurence because I
don't view these traditions as being especially antiquarian. On the
other hand there are several reasons to view the DeLaurence connection
with caution.
The first is that I have heard from primary sources of his being active
in Jamaica, I have not heard of any corroboration of his visits to
Trinidad. Further, there is plenty of documentation of Kabalistic
practices in the French speaking Antilles well before DeLaurence's time.
I suspect that it is more cautious to say that DeLaurence might well
have breathed new life into existing traditions.
I will try to find you some other sources shortly.
Eoghan
PS: Don't assume that what you find where you are reflects what is done
elsewhere.
John M. Hansen
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:Wv3T6.358$SQ2....@www.newsranger.com...<Big Snip>
| I did note some problems with Houk's views re the development of
"Trinidad
| Kaballah." He apparently believes the Kaballah as practiced in
Trinidad today
| has its roots among early French and Spanish settlers who brought
the *Zohar*
| and suchlike over with them. Based on what little information he
presented
| regarding Trinidadian Kaballah practitioners, I think it far, far
more likely
| that their Kaballah came from DeLaurence Publications and
suchlike. (Very few
| Rabbis, be they Sephardic or Ashkenazic, are going to recognize
A.E. Waite's
| *Book of Black Magic and Pacts* as a valuable text).
I agree with this observation, as DeLawrence marketed his
materials and his occult products very widely, not only in Central
and South America, but in the Caribbean Islands and in Nigeria.
Before World War Two the De Lawrence Company was one of the leading
American exporters to Nigeria. His products, consisting of
sawdust, perfume, and coloring, were highly regarded among many
Nigerians, as they came from America. His books were world wide
best sellers, even in India, where the people should have recognized
his 'Indian Magic' as pure B.S.
Best Wishes,
John M Hansen
<another snip>
E. C. Ballard
Beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Orisha religion in Trinidad,
1958-1999. Henry, Frances; Mischel, Walter. [St. Ann's, Trinidad and
Tobago] : s.n., 2000
Initiation at Mother Camara's shrine: an introduction to Orisha in
Trinidad. Lienert, Franziska. Zurich : F. Lienert, 1998
Praising his name in the dance: spirit possession in the Spiritual
Baptist Faith and Orisha work in Trinidad, West Indies. Lum, Kenneth
Anthony. Amsterdam : Harwood Academic : The Netherlands Publishers,
2000
Religion, diaspora and cultural identity: a reader in the Anglophone
Caribbean. Pulis, John W. . Amsterdam, The Netherlands : Gordon and
Breach, 1999
Trinidad ethnicity. Yelvington, Kevin A., London : Macmillan Caribbean,
1993
Eoghan
catherine yronwode
> I am not in a position to assess Houk's conclusions about
> the Zohar.
I believe Kevin is correct to question Houk's statements
about the Kabbalah in Trinidad today having "its roots among
early French and Spanish settlers who brought the *Zohar*
and suchlike over" -- if indeed those practitioners quote
Arthur Edward Waiite. Jews do not bother to study Kabbalah
by reading books by Christian Kabbalists such as Waite!
> On the one hand I am inclined to agree with you
> about DeLaurence because I don't view these traditions as
> being especially antiquarian. On the other hand there are
> several reasons to view the DeLaurence connection with
> caution.
>
> The first is that I have heard from primary sources of his
> being active in Jamaica, I have not heard of any
> corroboration of his visits to Trinidad.
Eoghan, here again i agree with Kevin's suppositions:
L. W. De Laurence need not have been "active" in Trinidad as
you suppose, nor need he have ever "visited" Trinidad to
have an effect there. As John Hansen notes, he was a
mail-order book publisher in Chicago who specialized in
texts on occultism, hypnotism, spiritualism, and magic --
and who sold WORLD-WIDE, from before 1900 onward, including,
most definitely, into the Caribbean and the American South.
I have elsewhere documented his impact on African-American
hoodoo rootworkers, and John testifies to his impact in
Nigeria. As for the Carribean, a recent ebay auction of
antique postage stamps turned up an envelope dated 1952 sent
to "Monsieur De Laurence + Cie" in Chicago by a customer in
Martinique. I did not buy the envelope, but i did keep a
copy of it and will place it on the web page that archives
this series of posts.
The URL will be
http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/religion/african/diasporic/caribbeanhinduorishaoccult.html
The image itself will be
http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/religion/african/diasporic/martiniquedelaurence.gif>
> Further, there is plenty of documentation of
> Kabbalistic practices in the French speaking Antilles well
> before DeLaurence's time.
Among non-Jews? Prior to the late 19th century? Please cite
your sources. This is news to me!
> I suspect that it is more cautious to say that DeLaurence
> might well have breathed new life into existing
> traditions.
I disagree -- and believe that Kevin is correct here.
L. W. De Laurence was what was then known as a "book
pirate." Due to some anomalies between English and United
States copyright law, he got his start by printing
unauthorized facsimile editions of late 19th and early 20th
century books about Medieval, Renaissance, Hermetic, and
Ceremonial magic and occultism written by a variety of
well-known authors associated with the Hermetic Order of the
Golden Dawn (circa 1888 - circa 1900).
For convenience, i refer to these people collectively as
"Golden Dawn authors," even though it is understood that
their published books were not officially sanctioned by the
HOGD, that some books may have been published after the HOGD
disbanded, and that some of the authors may also have
belonged to allied British, Scottish, Australian, and
American fraternal orders such as
The Sphere, c1897
(London: Florence Farr)
Herm. Soc. of the Morgenrothe, 1902
(London: Felkin, Brodie-Innes, Bullock)
Order of Light, 1902
(Bradford: T.H. Pattinson)
Stella Matutina (S.M.) [Amoun], 1903
(London: R.W. Felkin)
Holy Order of the G.D., 1903
(London: A.E. Waite, Blackden, Ayton)
A.'.A.'. (Astron Argon), c1907
(London: A. Crowley, G.C. Jones)
Zos Kia Cultus, c1910
(London: A.O. Spare)
Smaragdum Thalasses/Whare Ra (S.M.), 1912
(New Zealand: R.W. Felkin)
Ordo Templi Orientis [orig. c1895 Zurich: Reuss], 1912
(London: A. Crowley)
Alpha et Omega 2 (Northern), 1913
(Edinburgh & London: J.W. Brodie-Innes)
Cromlech [Solar Order], 1913
(Edinburgh & London: J.W. Brodie-Innes)
Hermes (S.M.), 1916
(Bristol: R.W. Felkin)
Merlin (S.M.), 1916
(London: R.W. Felkin)
Secret College in London (S.M.?), 1916
(London: R.W. Felkin)
Guild of St. Raphael, 1916
(London: Felkin & Roseveare)
Fellowship of the True Rosy Cross [Salvator Mundi], 1916
(London: A.E. Waite)
Shrine of Wisdom, c1916
(Hermon Hill, N. London: A.E. Waite?)
Nuada (Druid Order), c1916
(Clapham, London: G.W.M. Reid)
Alpha et Omega 3 (Southern), 1919
(London: M.M. Mathers)
School of Ageless Wisdom, c1920
(Chicago: Paul F. Case)
Fraternity/Society of Inner Light, 1922
(London: Dion Fortune)
[this list courtesy Steve Cranmer and the Golden Dawn
reference file at http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/gdref]
The Golden Dawn authors were -- particularly when one is
speaking of the Jewish Kabbalah -- not part of an "existing
tradition." Rather, they were cultural appropriaters who
mined whatever "exotic" magical, mystical, and religious
texts they could readily translate from secondary sources,
namely scholarly German and French books that contained
material previously translated from other languages.
All of the Golden Dawn authors' interpretations of the
Kabbalah are highly uniform because all the authors derived
their knowledge of this tradition from the limited array of
texts found in Von Rosenroth's German compilation and
translation -- NOT from primary Hebrew sources. For this
reason, what the Golden Dawn authors taught about the
Kabbalah is severely limited in ways that any Jewish
scholar, familiar with the broader tradition, will
immediately recognize. See Gershom Scholem's valuable
analysis of the Golden Dawn authors as interpreters of
Jewish mysticism in "Kabbalah." (Dorset, 1974).
Among the Golden Dawn authors whom De Laurence ripped off
shamelessly, the foremost were S.L. Macgregor Mathers (who
translated portions of Von Rosenroth's German translation of
Hebrew Kabbalistic texts into English) and Arthur Edward
Waite, who translated magical texts from Latin and French
originals (e.g. "The Book of Black Magic and Pacts"), and
also wrote many original works, including "The Key to the
Tarot," which De Laurence issued with his own name on as
author!
At some point around WW I, De Laurence was either threatened
by the Golden Dawn authors in question or the copyright laws
changed, for on later books he affixed the actual English
authors' names to the works, although he may have cheated
them out of royalties. Eventually, as the list of titles by
the original Golden Dawn authors played out, De Laurence
hired ghostwriters who were associated with other occult
orders to produce new works under his name. For instance, i
have been told on good repute that several of the circa
1920s books De Laurence claimed as his own were written by
Charles Stansfield Jones a.k.a. Frater Achad, a disciple of
Aleister Crowley, the latter a former member of the Golden
Dawn.
Jones belonged to the Crowley-led break-away jurisdiction of
the Ordo Templi Orientis, which had split from the original
OTO circa 1912. His views on magical and mystical topics
(including the Kabbalah) were heavily influenced by Crowley
and thus by the earlier Golden Dawn authors who in turn
derived their ideas from Von Rosenroth's limited German
compiltion of Kabbalistist texts, that being the Golden
Dawn's source-book.
Thus, although Jones had never belonged to the HOGD (he was
too young), he was, in the broad sense that i use the term,
also a Golden Dawn author, and as a ghostwriter, he
continued the tradition of disseminating Golden-Dawn-style
mysticism and magic to the world, under the De Laurence
aegis.
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Lucky W Amulet Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html
John M. Hansen
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:3B1D7A...@luckymojo.com...
| E. C. Ballard wrote:
|
| > I am not in a position to assess Houk's conclusions about
| > the Zohar.
|
| I believe Kevin is correct to question Houk's statements
| about the Kabbalah in Trinidad today having "its roots among
| early French and Spanish settlers who brought the *Zohar*
| and suchlike over" -- if indeed those practitioners quote
| Arthur Edward Waiite. Jews do not bother to study Kabbalah
| by reading books by Christian Kabbalists such as Waite!
|
One of the founders of the League (or Society) of Elect Cohens
went to Santo Domingo in the 1700's to collect the inheritance of a
plantation there. He remained there, and died about the late 1700's
or early 1800's. During his time there he found very little
interest among the French colonists in the Kabbalah, although the
Negro slaves were fascinated by his 'Magic Man' act. This man
involved several of the French speaking slaves of his household in
his Kabbalistic rites. Naturally, this required training them, and
allowing them to study the materials that he had brought with him
from France. On his death he Manumitted (freed) several of these
slaves. One of them went to the capitol city of Santo Domingo, on
the Island of Hispanola, and there founded an 'Academy of the
Kabbalah' in the freed black community. He also performed
relatively expensive for the times Cabalistic ceremonies and rituals
for people who needed them. He had a small group of people around
him, and it was from the descendants of this group, loosing
knowledge in each generation, that Kabbalisim came to the Caribbean
as a very secret, and very powerful thing.
Inter communication among the many islands was as free or freer
then than it is now, and so the word spread rapidly, but the
training spread very slowly, and after about 1870, was practically
not existent any more.
Once the DeLaurance books became available, in the 1890's, (He
exhibited at the Worlds Colombian exhibition of 1892 - 1893 in
Chicago) they were in very great demand in the Caribbean Islands,
where Kabalism by this time had become only a vague rumor. They
started a resurgence of Kabbalistic practices, mostly based on the
pirated works and translations of MacGreggor Mathers.
De Laurance died (I believe) during the great depression. His
heirs took over the business, which was disbanded about fifteen
years ago, or so when the last of them perished. The last operator
of the business was an attorney acting for the estate.
R. W. Felkin, whose name figures prominently in the above, was
the founder and principal author of a series of occult
correspondence courses that were the first occult instructouction
for a number of founders of occult lodges in the United States,
particularly Zain, the founder of the Church Of Light, but also
several others. He discontinued his correspondence courses during
the first world war.
Best Wishes,
John M Hansen
| [this list courtesy Steve Cranmer and the Golden Dawn
| reference file at http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/gdref]
<Big Snip >
Eoghan Ballard
not may lend credence to the antiquity of the tradition but it needn't be
viewed as essential in its presence or abcense. Kabbalistic magic was the
popular European magic of the Renaissance on and was the only major system
of magic (apart from the Arab influenced systems such as Geomancy and
Astrology) to be available in print in any systematicor consistant way.
As I said before, there are hand written documents in the Francophone
Antilles that predate the likes of DeLaurence by half a century at least
which demonstrate the use of Kaballistic magical forms and practices by
Afro-Antilleans known as Quimboiseurs.
While I don't doubt the influence of Delaurence was felt and quite
probably strongly through much of the Caribbean (including quite possibly
Trinidad), there is solid evidence to demonstrate that such Kaballism in
various places in the Antilles did not originate with him. I think there
is little reason to believe that in Trinidad it originated with him
either.
Eoghan
Kevin Filan
>| > Further, there is plenty of documentation of
>| > Kabbalistic practices in the French speaking Antilles well
>| > before DeLaurence's time.
>|
>| Among non-Jews? Prior to the late 19th century? Please cite
>| your sources. This is news to me!
>
> One of the founders of the League (or Society) of Elect Cohens
>went to Santo Domingo in the 1700's to collect the inheritance of a
>plantation there. He remained there, and died about the late 1700's
>or early 1800's. During his time there he found very little
>interest among the French colonists in the Kabbalah, although the
>Negro slaves were fascinated by his 'Magic Man' act.
I believe you're speaking of Martinez de Paquales here (I've seen any number of
variants on the spelling of his name). Pasquales was a major influence on
French Masonry (he is the initiator of Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin, one of the
more famous Martinists). According to the biography of Martinez found at
http://www.pathcom.com/~mtronics/rcmo/marhis1.htm
* * * * *
In May of 1772, Martinez sails for San Domingo on the “Duc de Duras”, after
having applied for a certificate of Catholicism. How he, a Mason and Grand
Master of his own High Grade Rite, obtained such a certificate is not explained.
He undertakes this journey in order to take up a legacy. On Tuesday, September
20, 1774, Martinez dies in Port-au_prince, Haiti. He leaves a son, then at the
Lescar College, near Pau. This son will disappear during the French Revolution,
20 years later. He was baptised on June 24, 1768.
* * * * *
> This man
>involved several of the French speaking slaves of his household in
>his Kabbalistic rites. Naturally, this required training them, and
>allowing them to study the materials that he had brought with him
>from France. On his death he Manumitted (freed) several of these
>slaves. One of them went to the capitol city of Santo Domingo, on
>the Island of Hispanola, and there founded an 'Academy of the
>Kabbalah' in the freed black community. He also performed
>relatively expensive for the times Cabalistic ceremonies and rituals
>for people who needed them. He had a small group of people around
>him, and it was from the descendants of this group, loosing
>knowledge in each generation, that Kabbalisim came to the Caribbean
>as a very secret, and very powerful thing.
From the source referenced above:
* * * * *
Before his death, Martinez had appointed as his successor, his cousin Armand
Cagnet de Lestère, General Secretary of the Navy in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. He
had very little time to devote to the Order, and could just amange to manage the
Elus Cohen Temples of Port-au-Prince and Léogane in Haiti. Divisions occured
within the Temples in Europe. A. C. De Lestère died in 1778 after transmitting
his powers to the “Very Powerful Master” Sebastian de las Casas. The new Grand
Master did not attempt to reconcile the different branches of the Elus Cohen,
nor to unify the Rite. Eventually, the Élus Cohen Temples became dormant.
The Doctrine continued to be transmitted from person to person within
Kabbalistic Areopagoi composed of 9 members. In 1806, concerted Theurgic
operations were still performed on the important dates of the equinoxes, the
rituals thereof being a significant purifying work of the Réau-Croix. One of the
last known direct representatives of the Élus Cohen was Destigny, who died in
1868.
After the Second World War, three S. I. Martinists, including Robert Ambelain
(Sar Aurifer), its Grand Master, using Elus Cohen rituals that they had obtained
from various sources, created a new “Martinist Order of the Élus Cohen” which
practices the operative form of Élus Cohen Theurgy. It was years later put to
sleep then revived 30 years later again, by Robert Ambelain, who is still alive
in Paris, France, at this date (Aug. 22, 1996).
* * * * * *
> Once the DeLaurance books became available, in the 1890's, (He
>exhibited at the Worlds Colombian exhibition of 1892 - 1893 in
>Chicago) they were in very great demand in the Caribbean Islands,
>where Kabalism by this time had become only a vague rumor. They
>started a resurgence of Kabbalistic practices, mostly based on the
>pirated works and translations of MacGreggor Mathers.
So it looks like everybody was right after all: there *was* a Rosicrucian and
Hermetic tradition in the Caribbean, but one which was largely dormant until
revived by the DeLaurence books. I suppose it's debatable as to how much
similarity there is between the Martinist traditions and the later
DeLaurence-inspired work, but I wouldn't rule out Martinist influence
altogether. The influence of Freemasonry on Haitian Vodou is pretty
well-documented.
Some interesting related links:
<http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/LouisClaudedeStMartin.htm>
Goes into more detail re. Saint-Martin's philosophy and relationship with
Martinez, although a few grains of salt are recommended.
<http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/martin.html>
<http://www.pathcom.com/~mtronics/rcmo/marhis3.htm>
More on Saint-Martin
Denise Oliver-Velez
reading them.
I wonder if any entrerprising young scholars are currently doing their
doctoral theses in this area....
Denise
LDDL
"syncretized" with one or more orishas in a context like Trinidad. Any
one know anything about suck a link?
Larry Rinehart
On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:01:40 GMT, Kevin Filan <mrha...@SPAMBGONE.com>
wrote:
E. C. Ballard
to Hindu traditions in this country. There are many regional differences
and emphasis mary vary as a result. One cannot assume that that which is
important in the literary centers of Northern India (where Kali Ma is by
the way of much less repute) will be the focus of people from Southern
India (where Kali Ma is very signficiant).
I do not pretend to know much on this subject, but this possible
explanation sprung to mind immediately. I too am interested in what
others may offer on this subject.
Eoghan
Oridara
LDDL wrote:
> It seems odd that so prominent a Hindu deity as Shiva would not be
> "syncretized" with one or more orishas in a context like Trinidad.
Any
> one know anything about suck a link?
>
> Larry Rinehart
>
I am a Trinidadian Orisha worshipper, Spiritual Baptist and Martial
arts practitioner and the truth is the Orisha are universal forces who
have been revealed to all races and cultures. Therefore similiarites
are very common among all people who are in touch with Nature. That is
why you will find Catholic Saints, Hindu Gods and Orisha that are being
matched together. Even the Shinto religion has Kami that are in essence
the same as the Orisha.
The real power does not lie in knowing the name of the Orisha and
matching them but in getting in touch with this spiritual power and
using the energy to make our lives, community and world a better
place.We can explore the semantics and theology but the bottom line is
we are using words to express spiritual concepts, this has its
limitations as I am sure you are aware. I have a copy of the book and
after reading it I knew it would only cause more confusion than
enlightenment. It is really strange that it took a caucasian foreigner
to write a book on our religion for us to finally start writing books
on the subject.
To answer your question Eshu or Elegba is the closest comparison to
Shiva.He is the first among the gods of this world, who made the world
so that others could make the things in it. Energy is his name, and he
moves through all things, never static. this statement applies for both
Eshu and Shiva. Eshu is the owner of ASHE or Spiritual energy. All
Orisha have their own Eshu. This is why Eshu is fed first at any
offering.
Shiva is termed the destroyer but he is also the destroyer of
ignorance and evil. He has a dual role and can move from one pole to
the other.
Eshu has these qualities and like Shiva is not on either side Good or
Evil but resides on both sides. He is the one whose job is to deliver
the fruit of Karma to all in this world.
Shangoboy83
related to shiva. I could be wrong but I read that in a book that
gave interesting comparisons to them both. I am a Spiritual baptist
myself and I am also proud that we can have this discussion. No
disrespect intended I just know a little about a little.
rasta213
We need more discussions in this newsgroup. :o) Too much XXX posts and not
enough real discussions on the topic of the newsgroup.
I don't think Shiva needs to be syncretized with any orisha. In Trinidad
all aspects of hindu culture is celebrated and respected.
Now an orisha/Spiritual Baptist priest/ess might decide to worship or give
homage to both Orisha and Hindu dieties separately or together, that is up
to the person, but I do not believe in my humble opinion that syncretization
is necessary. All dieties stand on their own spiritual powers as given by
Olodumare/ God / Creator etc to the different cultures.
Have a nice Day All!
One Love & Respect Always
Jahness
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