Divination
Omo Oshun
divination methods. However they are only really similar in the
physical mechanics, and tools. The spiritual mechanics, and the
accompanying verses of Odu are as far as I know unique to the Yoruba
and related ethnic groups. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.
Now a person from say Ghana or Senegal who casts Ikin for the purpose
of divination is really not divining in the same manner that we think
of. We merely see it that way because the mechanics are similar.
However those Ikin are not consecrated in the same manner as a
Babalawo would consecrate Ikin. Also they are not pulling down Odu,
because the force manipulating the tools of the divination is
different. They are divining using an entirely different force.
So if an uninitiated person, like ray, is doing divination using 16
cowrie shells, it is only similar in physical mechanics. Cowrie shells
do not belong to anyone culture, or tradition. What does belong to our
tradition is Odu, and that is something he can not access. He may call
4 mouths up Irosun, but it is not, it may be another force entirely,
or simply 4 shells that randomly landed that way (i.e. nothing at
all). It might as well be tarot cards, or i-ching. The cowrie shells
he is using are not mouthpieces of the orisha, and they are not
considered sacred within an orisha context. They may very well be
considered sacred in another context, and it may be a system that
works. It may be harmful to him and others, or it may not be. We
don’t really know. One thing for sure is that he is not casting
merindillogun, and he is not pulling down Odu's, and it is not worth
having a heart attack over.
Ray
names, not ever by their African names. It is good to know the
similarities and the differences between the two system of Europe and
Africa.
Being open minded helps one to learn
Ray
scott...@mail.com (Omo Oshun) wrote in message news:<67527b6b.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Omo Oshun
of these latin patterns exist? Show us how exactly similar they are.
And how do you consider x mouths up to be a geometric pattern?
rayowl...@aol.com (Ray) wrote in message news:<d1e6a33c.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Eoghan Ballard
used and in varying degrees the mechanics utlizied to determine them)
from Arab sand-casting. that being said, the mechanics of Ifa whether
using ikin, epkuele or cauries are techniques shared with other
neighboring peoples throughout much of West Africa. It is fairly clear
that these practices are part of a largely cultural complex and cannot
legitimately be claimed as originating with any one particular west
African culture.
Traditional methods are found among the Yoruba as among other west
African peoples along side methodologies clearly borrowed from Arab
influences. The Yoruba alone have invented a myth of origin for the
divcination derived from sand-casting and are fairly distinct from their
neighbors in having developed a complex corpus of utterances (Odun)
associated with each mark or sign in the system.
Such is Ifa. Whether certain of its techniques were adapted from other
sources or no is completely irrelevent to anything other than ego. What
is important is that they developed (or were given by the agency of the
deity Orula, aka Orunla or Orunmila) a complex system that went in a
completely different direction from that of the mechanical system they
adapted previously. It indeed represents the genius of the yoruba
speaking peoples.
Africa has never been in a vacuum, however when Africans borrow
something from somewhere else, be it arabic divination methods,
Christianity, or electric guitars, they manage to always reinvent the
borrowed as something entirely new and decidely African. In other words,
African culture is alive and vibrant, as is African derived culture.
Eoghan
grisso
>
> European geomancy and Yoruban Ifa divination both derive (in the marks
> used and in varying degrees the mechanics utlizied to determine them)
> from Arab sand-casting.
This matter has been discussed before on this group. What Eoghan again
here asserts as fact is but one of three logical possibilities, the
other two being 2) Arab sand-casting derives from the African, and 3)
both derive from the same parent. Which of the three is true as a matter
of fact is an empirical matter that can only be answered based on the
relevant historical timelines. Such a look places the African at time
zero not only of the birth of man, but of civilization, and of religion.
In particular, the art and practice of divination long predates Abraham,
the (African, btw) progenitor of the Arab. Therefore, it is a historical
nonsense to suggest that the art of divination was a gift of the Arab
son to the African father.
For those interested in the relevant timelines, an interesting site is
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/ , in particular the page
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/VodouFA.html#history .
> that being said, the mechanics of Ifa whether
> using ikin, epkuele or cauries are techniques shared with other
> neighboring peoples throughout much of West Africa. It is fairly clear
> that these practices are part of a largely cultural complex and cannot
> legitimately be claimed as originating with any one particular west
> African culture.
>
> Traditional methods are found among the Yoruba as among other west
> African peoples along side methodologies clearly borrowed from Arab
> influences. The Yoruba alone have invented a myth of origin for the
> divcination derived from sand-casting and are fairly distinct from their
> neighbors in having developed a complex corpus of utterances (Odun)
> associated with each mark or sign in the system.
>
> Such is Ifa. Whether certain of its techniques were adapted from other
> sources or no is completely irrelevent to anything other than ego. What
> is important is that they developed (or were given by the agency of the
> deity Orula, aka Orunla or Orunmila) a complex system that went in a
> completely different direction from that of the mechanical system they
> adapted previously. It indeed represents the genius of the yoruba
> speaking peoples.
>
> Africa has never been in a vacuum, however when Africans borrow
> something from somewhere else, be it arabic divination methods,
> Christianity, or electric guitars, they manage to always reinvent the
> borrowed as something entirely new and decidely African. In other words,
> African culture is alive and vibrant, as is African derived culture.
It is no gift to steal the African loaf and attempt to disguise that
fact by showering the African with its crumbs.
> Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
Eoghan Ballard
understandible in the light of the history of interaction between Africa
and the West creates some severe problems in getting at a balanced
understanding of what happened. Although he chooses to overlook a lot of
hard evidence to make reality fit his agenda, Grisso's real shortcoming
is that in pressing an agenda stating that this (the mechanism of Ifa
divination) is of African origin alone, he denies the incredible
flexibility and creative appropriative genius of most African cultures.
No culture African or otherwise, exists in a vacuum. No culture comes
into contact with others and does not borrow what they see from another
that suits their disposition and needs. That, having (and sorry Grisso,
but all the evidence points to it having come to West Africa in the
manner I have pointed out) adopted a mechanical system from another
culture for their uses (and I am not saying they borrowed divination,
just a particular mechanical method which they adopted while continuing
to use others they had before alongside it) they converted it into
something far more sophisticated and impressive than it had been in the
hands of those who first developed that method (the Arabs).
If you could get past your blind need to assert that all African culture
was uninfluenced by the larger world it came into contact with, then you
might realize that far from trying to claim African culture and peoples
were not the origin of many fabuluous gifts to human intellectual,
spiritual and material culture, you would realize that I am indeed
asserting that they were.
Where would modern art or music be without African genius? I love
Zairean Zouskous (Rumba). That they use electric guitars does not make
me insist that they invented them. I would argue that in wedding the
techniques and musical repetoire of the likembe (Sanza) to the electric
guitar, they made far better use of that instrument than had been made
by most people of European extraction. Before someone races to say, "But
what about Eric Clapton?", I'd also point out that his style was
completely based upon Delta Blues, which is almost completely derived
from African Griot tradition.
Lighten up Grisso, you are missing the forest for the trees.
Eoghan
grisso
>
(( cuts ))
> Although he chooses to overlook a lot of
> hard evidence to make reality fit his agenda, Grisso's real shortcoming <snip>
And what would this hard evidence be? Perhaps you could summarize in a
paragraph and point us to sources?
(( crap deleted ))
> Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
Eoghan Ballard
provide that as well, not that you'll read it. Go look up our previous
discussions in the deja/google archives. I am not going to waste my time
getting into a long debate with you again. It has proven historically to
be a waste of time.
Eoghan
grisso
>
> I've done it plenty of times before.
No you have not... no doubt because you *cannot*.
If you want a bibliography i can
> provide that as well, not that you'll read it.
As a doctoral candidate, I'm sure you appreciate that a bibliography by
itself does not constitute an *argument*.
Go look up our previous
> discussions in the deja/google archives.
I have. And they reveal that despite repeated requests on my part, you
failed to take the required next step beyond mere assertion and provide
an actual *argument*.
I am not going to waste my time
> getting into a long debate with you again. It has proven historically to
> be a waste of time.
This is a public forum .... I am sure you do not address your ex
cathedra pronouncements narrowly to me. I do agree, however, that they
are in general a waste of time, certainly when unsupported by anything
remotely resembling an argument.
> Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
Eoghan Ballard
your dogmas. Far be it for me to attempt to disabuse you of them.
Eoghan
grisso
>
> Ah Grisso, you haven't changed a bit. Don't worry, you can retain all of
> your dogmas. Far be it for me to attempt to disabuse you of them.
How flaccid! I ask for argument, he accuses me of dogma...
> Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
"And be these juggling fiends no more believed...
that keep the word of promise to our ear,
And break it to our hope!"
Eoghan
In spite of the fact that you claim that I have not offered any evidence
of the relationship between sand casting and Ifa divination, I have. You
simply do not wish to accede to the existance of it. I do not need to
restate the entire literature, or even more than its barest essentials
here. That I have done with reference to authors who have dealt with it
in greater length.
You have a nasty habit of misrepresenting the history of discussions and
trying to deflect anything that challanges your agenda. I do not need,
nor am I interested in, debating anything with you. For that matter, I
am not interested in getting into tit for tat with you which is your
standard modus operandi.
Good day and blessings.
grisso
>
> The issue is Grisso, that all you are really interested in is argument.
I do have *some* interest in the facts and the evidence as well...
> In spite of the fact that you claim that I have not offered any evidence
> of the relationship between sand casting and Ifa divination, I have. You
> simply do not wish to accede to the existance of it.
Well here is a chance for you to make a fool of me, and quote the post
in which you have.
I do not need to
> restate the entire literature, or even more than its barest essentials
> here. That I have done with reference to authors who have dealt with it
> in greater length.
Again, in that case, here is your chance to make a fool of me. Show me
the post with your argument.
> You have a nasty habit of misrepresenting the history of discussions
If true, that should be rather easy to demonstrate. But I see you make
no attempt... no doubt because you cannot.
(( remaining crap deleted ))
Peace,
Grisso
Eoghan Ballard
evidence, you have decided that it frankly isn't acceptable. No one not
of the correct hue can have anything to say about Africa and if they
have the correct hue and you don't agree with them, they're simply
fools.
I tired of your games a long time ago.
Plunk.
Eoghan
grisso
>
> No, it is not because I can't it is because every time I have presented
> evidence, you have decided that it frankly isn't acceptable.
As I recall, the only "evidence" you ever presented was the fact of
similarity between Arab sand divination and Ifa divination, from which
you concluded that it was "obvious" that the Yoruba had to have borrowed
from the Arab. It is the mode of (il-)logic of the racist, for whom
Africa and Africans are tabula rasa, always to be written on by the
other.
No one not
> of the correct hue can have anything to say about Africa and if they
> have the correct hue and you don't agree with them, they're simply
> fools.
I learnt a long time ago that facts and logic are far more effective in
debate than speculation about the supposed "agenda" of your opponent.
> I tired of your games a long time ago.
>
> Plunk.
And in defense of Africa, Africans, and ATR from the LIES of the
Academy, I will not tire of calling you to task when you make false
statements that would diminish African accomplishment. Left to such as
yourself, historical Km.t (ancient Egypt) would be a white country,
somehow separated from Africa. And Ifa divination would be an Arab gift
to Africa. What nonsense! Given a chance to support your statement with
facts and evidence, it is no surprise that you resort to evasion.
> Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
"He can run, but he can't hide."