What Mambo Marie told me.....
David Ritter
nothing of the "sevis tet", or that it would not make one a member of
a Vodou Household, or possibly that it Might be part of a different
Tradition not to be confused with Vodou but similar in some ways.
I was wrong on all counts.
This is what Mambo Marie told me that day.... (NOT what I say)
She stated very clearly that this "sevis tet" was part of the SAME
Tradition, no "Non Asson" Linages nothing like that. I asked
specificaly about that and the answer was no.
She stated that it originated with the Native Indians of Hispaniola as
opposed to Africa.
She stated that the vast majority including Houngans and Mambos have
never heard of it.
She stated that the ranks (in her house anyway) totaled 4 and not 3
like in other houses.
She stated that this type of "initiation" has been forgoten by the
majority and now only exists in the old, old, largely forgoten Vodou.
She stated that this service is done for those who fear that the Kanzo
is related to Satan due to the fire used in the Kanzo.
After I had finished speaking with Mambo Marie (and recovered from the
shock)I considered what she said to me.
There are serious problems with this type of initiation folks.
Such as but not limited to....
Why, would someone refusing Kanzo, thinking that it was "of the Devil"
then undergo such another ceremony done by those who have Kanzoed?
Wouldn't anyone thinking like that also refuse any Vodou ceremony?
Why would anyone serious enough to become a member of a Vodou
Household undergo an initiation ceremony that will never be recognized
by another Household? (unless of course that person is unaware)
How in the world did the vast majority of Vodou Households "forget"
about an entire rank of it's members? No one would forget Houngan Sur
Point or Hounsi would they? The idea is laugable.
There are many problems with the "sevis tet". So many that, even if I
din't know better I still would think it to be so highly suspicous
that I would steer clear of it or anyone having anything to do with
it.
Wish you th Best,
Houngan Dayiva
Zevaluz
>
>Why would anyone serious enough to become a member of a Vodou
>Household undergo an initiation ceremony that will never be recognized
>by another Household? (unless of course that person is unaware)
I'm not undergoing any initiations, so I'm not on anyone's particular
side here. Because of this I realize no one particularly will care
what I'm going to say, but it's sort of just bursting through my
fingertips.
If you find a house that you're compatible with and that's what they
primarily do for initiation, then it seems that that's what you do for
initiation. =) If I were to undergo initiation in a house, I would
be going in with the intent to always be with that House (just like we
are always bound to our birth parents, like it or not in some cases!)
- it would not matter to me what another House does or does not do.
Only the one that I am joining. Just like one doesn't generally go
into a marriage with intent of divorce, I wouldn't go through an
initiation with the thought in mind that I was going to change Houses
in the future.
>How in the world did the vast majority of Vodou Households "forget"
>about an entire rank of it's members? No one would forget Houngan Sur
>Point or Hounsi would they? The idea is laugable.
Do you think the other house serves and works with the loa? Do you
think the loa help them when called, dance with them at their
ceremonies, help the other House and their members when they're in
need?
Seems to me that both houses serve the loa, each has different
approaches. Mambo Marie has said that the sevis tet is part of Vodou
(and various authors have written about the sevis tet it looks like)
- everyone on this forum who teachs teaches that Vodou is INclusive
not EXclusive so it's not beyond my reckoning that ceremonies may be
changed slightly over the years - which to my eyes makes them no less
a part of Vodou.
Standard disclaimer when posting on aro: I'm not writing this to
argue - as I'm not on anyone's side but my own. I just feel that both
Houses have validity and serve the loa and the ancestors.
Zev.
Racine125
<zev...@amphigory.com> writes:
>If you find a house that you're compatible with and that's what they
>primarily do for initiation, then it seems that that's what you do for
>initiation. =)
No, that's like saying if you find a renegade church where
they claim to be Roman Catholic but their ordinations are not
recognized by the Catholic church, that's just fine.
It's NOT fine. We have freedom of religion of course, the
people in that church can do what they like. What they
can not do is call it Catholicism.
In the same sense, the "sevis tet" is not Vodou, is not
recognized as Vodou, is not a part of Vodou practice, and
therefore should not be passed off as Vodou. Vodou is
not a New Age do-what-you-feel religion, it is a tradition
with a rather strict set of rules and a heritage of ceremonial
practice.
"Old, old, largely lost", my foot! Anyone who buys this
(literally! $750! LOL) should go and get fitted for a set
of the Emperor's new clothes. I'm not sure if Marie Carmel
Charles is snowing Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf,
or if he and she together are trying to snow the rest
of us, but it's time to get out the shovels.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Racine125
In article <fb04d286.02122...@posting.google.com>,
ritte...@hotmail.com (David Ritter) writes:
>When I called Mambo Marie I expected she would tell me that she knew
>nothing of the "sevis tet", or that it would not make one a member of
>a Vodou Household, or possibly that it Might be part of a different
>Tradition not to be confused with Vodou but similar in some ways.
>
>I was wrong on all counts.
>This is what Mambo Marie told me that day.... (NOT what I say)
>She stated very clearly that this "sevis tet" was part of the SAME
>Tradition, no "Non Asson" Linages nothing like that. I asked
>specificaly about that and the answer was no.
Okay, so she is claiming that this is "orthodox" Vodou.
>She stated that it originated with the Native Indians of Hispaniola as
>opposed to Africa.
Oh! LOL Native Indian Hispaniolan Vodou. Now, the only
place Native Hispaniolan entities show up in Vodou is in
Petro - some people think Don Petro is Taino. But lately
I have been informed that the rulers of the Kongo during the
colonial period were under the tutelage of the Purtuguese,
took Portuguese names, and produced a long line of
"kings" called "King Pedro", of whom King Pedro V was
the last, sooo... now it seems more likely that "Don Pedro"
is Kongo in origin. This makes sense - the Simbi lwa are
of Kongo origin, and there are lwa with "Kongo" in their names,
like Kongo Savanne and La Reine Kongo. All these lwa
are Petro lwa.
Okay, now - the reason for that digression is that initiation,
in Vodou, is a Rada function. Not Petro, Rada. So much so
that people whose met tet (owner of the head) is a Petro lwa,
have to choose a Rada lwa as their sponsor in the initiatory
djevo.
>She stated that the vast majority including Houngans and Mambos have
>never heard of it.
>She stated that the ranks (in her house anyway) totaled 4 and not 3
>like in other houses.
You now, way back in 1996 I wrote a page called "Charlatans in
Vodou", warning people that when someone says they are the
only one doing things a certain way - WATCH OUT.
>She stated that this type of "initiation" has been forgoten by the
>majority and now only exists in the old, old, largely forgoten Vodou.
I want to know - how could so much information, including an
entire initiatory grade, have been "largely forgotten"??? Was there,
like, an epidemic of amnesia or something? Vodou is a very
conservative tradition in terms of the type of ceremonies performed
and they way in which they are conducted, so this is just
plain nonsense.
>She stated that this service is done for those who fear that the Kanzo
>is related to Satan due to the fire used in the Kanzo.
BWAHAHAHAHA! What a riot!
No one in Hait fears that the kanzo is related to Satan, the
kanzo is *sacred* to all Vodouisants. The people yammering
about Satan are the Protestants, and they see Satan everywhere
in Vodou, not particularly in the fires of the kanzo.
>
>After I had finished speaking with Mambo Marie (and recovered from the
>shock)I considered what she said to me.
>There are serious problems with this type of initiation folks.
I'll say!
>Such as but not limited to....
>Why, would someone refusing Kanzo, thinking that it was "of the Devil"
>then undergo such another ceremony done by those who have Kanzoed?
Yeah, that's rather illogical.
>Wouldn't anyone thinking like that also refuse any Vodou ceremony?
>Why would anyone serious enough to become a member of a Vodou
>Household undergo an initiation ceremony that will never be recognized
>by another Household? (unless of course that person is unaware)
That's the key question. Now, Michele claims that this "sevis tet"
nonsense is "ideal for people who don't want to travel to Haiti".
(Maybe they think that is where Satan has his headquarters?)
But no one having this ceremony is going to be recognized
as an initiate by anyone else.
>How in the world did the vast majority of Vodou Households "forget"
>about an entire rank of it's members? No one would forget Houngan Sur
>Point or Hounsi would they? The idea is laugable.
IT SURE IS!
>There are many problems with the "sevis tet". So many that, even if I
>din't know better I still would think it to be so highly suspicous
>that I would steer clear of it or anyone having anything to do with
>it.
>
>Wish you th Best,
>Houngan Dayiva
I think you're right. I mean to say, I know you are right that this
"sevis tet" is bogus, and I think you are right that even people
who haven't been to Haiti can see that it is bogus with a little
bit of reflection.
Mambo Marie Carmel Charles! You ought to be ashamed of
yourself. You know perfectly well that if you go back to Haiti
and own up to this kakadoodledoo, it's not going to be good
for your reputation as a Mambo. And if you think that your
buddy Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf is somehow
going to be able to attract enough clients and enough money
to make it worthwhile for you to compromoise your reputation,
think again - information about Vodou is now widely available
in print and on the Internet, and people are not so easy to dupe
anymore.
Houngan David! Thank you very much for your time and
trouble.
:-)
Kevin Filan
David: instead of arguing about this based on "he said/she said," might I
suggest an alternative.
I moderate the group "tristatevodou," which is dedicated to Vodou
practitioners in the NY/NJ/CT tristate area. We would love to have you as a
member, and would be happy to introduce you to Mambos and Houngans other
than Mambo Marie, who have not been initiated by Mambo Marie. In fact, I
would even be happy to extend an invitation to you for one of our upcoming
services. My Mambo has an asson, as do many of the people attending her
parties. She would be glad to welcome you as a guest.
When and if you show up at our house, I am sure that Edelyne (who will be
able to verify her status as Mambo Asogwe with signs and passwords and by
providing references) will be happy to run briefly through what you were
taught and how this compares to what a Houngan Si Pwen in her house, or in
other Haitian houses, is expected to know. (I'm sure she will also ask you
if you saw Racine possessed by La Sirene: she found my description of one of
Racine's 1999 "La Sirene possessions" to be interesting and entertaining).
You can also feel free to ask her your questions about the "Sevis Tet" and
whether or not this is a valid ceremony. (Try asking her "Are there houses
in the north of Haiti which do not give the asson?") If you are unsatisfied
with her answers, you can visit several Haitian botanicas in Brooklyn and
ask them your questions about Mambo Marie and Mambo Racine. This would be a
good way for you to expand your knowledge, and would provide you some
contacts within the Haitian diaspora in New York.
If you join "tristatevodou," you will be able to see some pictures of our
house in Brooklyn, and a few snapshots of some recent ceremonies. (I will
be adding more this week after I pick up a couple more rolls of film).
Looking forward to seeing you on the list: there are already a few people
you know on there, including Racine.
Peace
Kevin Filan
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/tristatevodou
Racine125
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>David: instead of arguing about this based on "he said/she said," might I
>suggest an alternative.
Oh! You've been wailing about how you want *Houngan* David to
speak up, and now that he does, you want to"suggest an alternative"
ROTFL!
>I'm sure she will also ask you
>if you saw Racine possessed by La Sirene: she found my description of one of
>Racine's 1999 "La Sirene possessions" to be interesting and entertaining
All of my intiates have met La Sirene, as have all the lave
tet participants. Photos of these events are online, and
also in the Photos section of the Vodou Arts forum
>Try asking her "Are there houses
>in the north of Haiti which do not give the asson?"
Of course there are! And those houses are not Vodou houses.
Vodou is a *religion*, not some general term for any and all
spiritual practice that takes place in Haiti. Those houses
are headed by serviteurs, they serve the lwa. The leaders
of those houses are not HOungans and Mambos.
>Looking forward to seeing you on the list: there are already a few people
>you know on there, including Racine.
Well, someone's got to keep an eye on you! LOL In fact, I
didn't know whose forum it was when I signed up, and I am
certainly not going to disrupt your forum the way you have
repeatedly disrupted mine.
Kevin Filan
"Kathy Geisenhainer-Grey" <raci...@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <BA2C795C.B6BE%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com>, Kevin Filan
> <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>
>> David: instead of arguing about this based on "he said/she said," might I
>> suggest an alternative.
>
> Oh! You've been wailing about how you want *Houngan* David to
> speak up, and now that he does, you want to"suggest an alternative"
>
> ROTFL!
David is welcome to speak up. What I have offered is a suggestion which
should prove amenable to all concerned.
You have claimed that "NO Houngan or Mambo in Haiti would recognize this
bogus phony-baloney Sevis Tet etc." I've offered to introduce him to
several Haitian Houngans and Mambos who will be willing to give him their
opinion on the Sevis Tet, and on the validity of his initiation. One of
them is the Mambo I am working with: the others include people working at
various Haitian botanicas and "variety stores" throughout East Flatbush and
Brooklyn. If he shows up for one of our ceremonies, I can even introduce
him to some other Houngans and Mambos who were not made by my Mambo, or by
her initiatory parents. He can tell these Mambos and Houngans exactly what
Marie told him, and get their opinion on the subject.
I presume that their opinions on the subject would be worthwhile, no?
I haven't spoken to Mambo Marie Carmel Charles about this, so I have no idea
what she actually said. I know what David is telling us she said. This
differs a fair bit from what you were claiming she said, but not to such an
extent that I could accuse either of you of lying. Nor do I see that there
would be any point to my posting what Marie told me: you'd certainly claim
that I was lying, that she was lying, or both. Since the Houngans and
Mambos in question are not affiliated with Aboudja or Marie -- or with you
-- they have no reason to lie on their behalf or on yours.
>> I'm sure she will also ask you
>> if you saw Racine possessed by La Sirene: she found my description of one of
>> Racine's 1999 "La Sirene possessions" to be interesting and entertaining
>
> All of my intiates have met La Sirene, as have all the lave
> tet participants. Photos of these events are online, and
> also in the Photos section of the Vodou Arts forum
Then David should have no problem describing your La Sirene possession(s) to
other Houngans and Mambos and getting their comments thereon.
>> Looking forward to seeing you on the list: there are already a few people
>> you know on there, including Racine.
>
> Well, someone's got to keep an eye on you! LOL In fact, I
> didn't know whose forum it was when I signed up, and I am
> certainly not going to disrupt your forum the way you have
> repeatedly disrupted mine.
I hope you're enjoying the list so far. I presume you will return the favor
and allow me to subscribe to "Vodou Arts?" If not, that's fine: I can always
strike up conversations offlist with people I find interesting. (As a
matter of fact, my Mambo will soon be doing a maryaj for one of your
listmembers: it's a pity that you were too busy flaming Aboudja to respond
to her email... )
Peace
Kevin Filan
Racine125
<mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> writes:
>You have claimed that "NO Houngan or Mambo in Haiti would recognize this
>bogus phony-baloney Sevis Tet etc."
Not only that, but Houngan David has told you, right here
on this forum, that Marie Carmel Charles, the supposed
authenticator of this bogus ceremony, "stated that it originated
with the Native Indians of Hispaniola as opposed to Africa.
She stated that the vast majority including Houngans and
Mambos have never heard of it.
She stated that the ranks (in her house anyway) totaled 4
and not 3 like in other houses.
She stated that this type of "initiation" has been forgoten by
the majority."
Remember? LOL! You asked the question, you got the
response, and now you are not happy with it. Too bad!
>I haven't spoken to Mambo Marie Carmel Charles about this, so I have no idea
>what she actually said. I know what David is telling us she said.
Now you think *Houngan* David is lying?
>Then David should have no problem describing your La Sirene possession(s) to
>other Houngans and Mambos and getting their comments thereon.
If he wishes, and if he feels that it's important to him.
>I hope you're enjoying the list so far.
Actually.. I find it similar to Mark Alexander "Aboudja" Moellendorf's
forum - the same few screen names scratching each other's backs,
most of whom are sockpuppets.
> I presume you will return the favor
>and allow me to subscribe to "Vodou Arts?"
No.
Your presence on my list has been offensive and disruptive. I
would never behave in that way, in fact, I don't really intend
to say much of anything.
> (As a
>matter of fact, my Mambo will soon be doing a maryaj for one of your
>listmembers: it's a pity that you were too busy flaming Aboudja to respond
>to her email... )
Now I am supposed to be consumed by jealousy? I have told
you and your clique over and over, there is plenty of work to
go around. Can I possibly hope to do every single ceremony?
Serve every single client? I am not offended to see other
Houngans and Mambos working, far from it! What I do object to
is *inauthentic ceremonies*, for example that hocus-pocus,
"largely lost" "Native Indian" "other-houses-don't-do-it-this-way"
so-called "sevis tet".