La Sirene, Yemaya, Madre de Agua, and so on...
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Better minds than mine have wrestled with similar questions - remember that the
Christian church just about went into paroxysms and schisms and 'isms over the
same question regarding the Three Persons of the Trinity!
Here is how I see it. Some lwa are historical personages, like Shango in
Orisha service, or Agassou in Vodou. Some are particular to only one branch of
the Afro-Caribbean religious diaspora, like Aganyu, who is served in Orisha
tradition but not in Vodou.
And some are universal archetypes who appear in every tradition in the world!
Legba, for instance, the owner of doorways and gates and communication, appears
in Vodou and in Orisha service, but also in the Greco-Roman tradition as Hermes
and Mercury and Janus and so on. The beneficent Goddess of Love is worldwide,
she is Oshun and Erzulie Freda and Kwan Yin and Venus and Aphrodite.
Likewise La Sirene. I don't think there is any other entity who is recognized
in so many places, she is the Mermaid and La Sirene and Yemaya and the Great
Silkie and Mami Wata and on and on and ON! There is no culture in the world
that encounters the sea that does not have a Sea Goddess.
Not only that! The service of this entity is similar all over the world. She
is identified with the full moon, of course, because it is at the full moon
that the tide is highest and the sea comes up the farthest on the land, all
over the world. Her color is always blue, obviously, and interestingly her
number is seven in any tradition where she has a number assigned to her. She
likes mirrors, she likes silver, everywhere!
A woman who serves Mami Wata posted on another forum detailed instructions for
her service, and it is the same in almost every way as service for La Sirene in
Vodou.
So, I ask you, how many Queen of the Seas can there be? The sea is worldwide,
how could the entity which lives within the sea be anything but worldwide? I
don't think there is one in the Bight of Benin and another in the Caribbean and
another in the North Atlantic and another in the South China Sea!
I believe that what differs is the aspect, the peculiarities of service to that
universal energy in each particular tradition. For example, I began my service
in the Afro-Caribbean traditions by serving my ancestors, and then Yemaya as
best I could as a layperson.
Next I was initiated in Vodou, and lo and behold the two lwa who came to my
head the most were La Sirene and Simbi Makaya. So I began to serve La Sirene,
and found the service very similar to what I was already doing.
I have an intiate who is a Palero - two of them actually, and one of them came
to Haiti for Fet Gede. I am interested in Palo, and so is my colleague Houngan
Yves, so we were full of questions. And I discovered that just like La Sirene,
Madre de Agua has a male aspect in Palo (oh gosh I forget the name). And while
a reading would have to be done to see if this is my appropriate nkisi in Palo,
it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it were one or the other of the sea nkisi.
Of course I am not omniscient, I could be wrong, but I believe that these
entities are part of a huge commonality, and manifest in different ways in
different places and different cultures.
And let me add - unfortunately apparently this is necessary - if anyone
disagrees with me, I don't think this makes them bad or evil or stupid or
inauthentic, and I don't think it makes me bad or evil or stupid or inauthentic
either. Experiences differ, points of view differ.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
& From: Aboudja (Houngan daGinea) <aboudja@y...>
>>>Are the lwa and the orishas and the nkisi the same? Are they
different?<<<
>>>Better minds than mine have wrestled with similar questions -
remember that the Christian church just about went into paroxysms and
schisms and 'isms over the same question regarding the Three Persons
of the Trinity!<<<
This is very true. Perhaps this is a topic that cannot be answered
completely or definitively at all. Most people tend to form their
opinions based on experience. Well at least we hope they would. Many
people, as you & the forum knows, form their opinions based on what
they are taught in sunday school, catachism & so forth....swallowing
it whole, so to speak. They never "look" for themselves. Ah, but I
digress.....
>>>Here is how I see it. Some lwa are historical personages, like
Shango in Orisha service, or Agassou in Vodou. Some are particular
to only one branch of the Afro-Caribbean religious diaspora, like
Aganyu, who is served in Orisha tradition but not in Vodou.<<<
Here you use the perfect example Rasine: Shango. Now Shango in
NagoLand & Sobo in Haiti/ Sogbo in Dahomey are arguably the same
energy. Thunder, the Storm. Also, in all 3 locations their appearance
is noted by similar affect....particularly the gesturing "hand anwo,
hand anba (or to the crotch as some would have it.
But the question is are they the "same"? At some root way back surely
they must be. The power of the storm is anthropomorphisized in every
culture. So at some point we could say that they are the same. This
is the premise (sp?) for Wicca BTW. However, especially because
that "force" incarnated in the historical figure of Shango, died & re-
acended to the status of an Orisha....now are they the same? If so,
on what level. I think this discussion is more about "degrees of
similarity".
This also reminds me of the "avatar" discussion of earlier.....
>>>And some are universal archetypes who appear in every tradition in
the world! Legba, for instance, the owner of doorways and gates and
communication, appears in Vodou and in Orisha service, but also in
the Greco-Roman tradition as Hermes and Mercury and Janus and so on.
The beneficent Goddess of Love is worldwide, she is Oshun and Erzulie
Freda and Kwan Yin and Venus and Aphrodite.<<<
Absolutely, though Legba was an import to Dahomey not natif. He comes
from NagoLand, but does this mean that Oshun & Ezili want to be
served the same? By the same means & in the same way? What about
Legba & Janus? No, I dont think so.
>>>Likewise La Sirene. I don't think there is any other entity who
is recognized in so many places, she is the Mermaid and La Sirene and
Yemaya and the Great Silkie and Mami Wata and on and on and ON!
There is no culture in the world that encounters the sea that does
not have a Sea Goddess.<<<
Yes, but the problems with your argument are several:
First, LaSiren was not originally to be found in the sea, but the
rivers in Haiti. Even Herskovitz makes note of this.
Second: LaSiren is not the only female sea-dwelling wife of Papa
Agwe! So who is who? Who of them all, is the "Queen of the Sea"?
Third: If you have ever seen Yemanja @ a bembe in possession you
would note immediately that she looks & acts NOTHING like LaSiren in
possession in Haiti. In fact, at frist glance a Lukumi would just as
likely think they were seeing an aspect of Oshun before Yemanja.
Forth: What about Ezili Herself. She comes from the sea..."Ezili soti
nan LaMe`..." as the song goes.
>>>Not only that! The service of this entity is similar all over the
world. She is identified with the full moon, of course, because it
is at the full moon that the tide is highest and the sea comes up the
farthest on the land, all over the world.<<<<
Not all lunar deities have to do with the sea. This is a gross
generalization you are making. The Babylonian Sin for example had
nothing to do with the sea & he was a MALE figure!
>>>Her color is always blue, obviously,<<<
Nope. Many cultures ascribe the colour green to spirits who are
associated with or who live in the sea. Further in Daome, the colour
of the Vodoun of the sea, be it Hu in Whydah, or Agbe in the rest of
Dahomey is RED. Remember...or maybe understand, Mami Wata is not
natif to Dahomey & HER colour is not just blue, but also green & red.
Read Konemann's book "Soul of Africa: Magical Rites & Traditions" 99'
ISBN: 3-8290-2716-8 for mor info. It is truly a fabulous book.
>>>...and interestingly her number is seven in any tradition
where she has a number assigned to her. She likes mirrors, she likes
silver, everywhere! A woman who serves Mami Wata posted on another
forum detailed instructions for her service, and it is the same in
almost every way as service for La Sirene in Vodou.<<<
>>>So, I ask you, how many Queen of the Seas can there be?<<<
That is not really the point. There is only one OCEAN! But there can
be a spirit or god for each people. How many Thunderers can there be?
How many Iron workers can there be? (& on that note: you should talk
to some dually initiated people to Lukumi & Candomble Nago: One such
person took Ogou in both & guess what? They are jealous of each
other, each Ogou! The same entity, I think not. Same root...same
power....different manifestation....different 'avatar'), how many
spirits of Love (not always female BTW) can there be?
Certainly "Love" is more a universal principle & reality than even
the sea.
>>>The sea is worldwide, how could the entity which lives within the
sea be anything but worldwide?<<<
How can an entity that lives in the sky NOT be worlwide? In fact such
entities are not! The same for the sea. This is not to stable logic
Rasine.
>>>I don't think there is one in the Bight of Benin and another in
the Caribbean and another in the North Atlantic and another in the
South China Sea!<<
Of course there is!....but then there isnt! Thats the point. The
hidden notion here is that of archetypes vs types. The "Queen of the
Sea" is an archetype (someone on this forum with a detailed
background in Wicca may say this better than I), but Yemanja,
LaSiren, LaBalen, Gwan-n Bosin, etc. are all types. A type is defined
as how an archetype manifests to a specific cultue in space & time.
Over time these "types" tend to become independant of the
other "types". This is infact the basis of their power...this
distiction. An archetype is much to broad a catagory to work with. It
is to BIG! Thus as "types" become distinct they then tend to
personify....they tend to take on affectation that is distinct. By
this point, though having the same root....they can only grow
up....never backwards. To do so implies that they have "died &
returned to Ginea. This for a Lwa is to rejoin this original
archetype....to disappear into the waters of Ginea.
BTW: Mami Wata in West Africa is not only a Vodou, but a whole class
of Vodou which include Aziri (Ezili).
>>>I believe that what differs is the aspect, the peculiarities of
service to that universal energy in each particular tradition. For
example, I began my service in the Afro-Caribbean traditions by
serving my ancestors, and then Yemaya as best I could as a
layperson.<<<
This is very true. You made your own point. If a person in Lukumi for
example has Yemanja, we must see what aspect she has to make a
comparison. If she has Okuti for example, she probably (dollars to
doughnuts) will have Danto` as her head in Ginea. If she has Oya,
maybe she has the road that lives by the river so it would be no
surprise if we found her with LaSiren in Ginea.
So you see, this is an ever so complex topic. It is not cut & dry.
The reason? We (as you Rasine know I am sure) deal with our Lwa in
groupings of families & of escourts, not in the fashion of Lukumi
caminhos.
>>>Of course I am not omniscient, I could be wrong, but I believe
that these entities are part of a huge commonality, and manifest in
different ways in different places and different cultures.<<<
Yes indeed!
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<< Greetings Rasine! I hope your Christmas Holiday (from the
Episcopalian side) & your other services as you are following them
(from the Ginea side) are bright for you....especially today!>>
Thank you! I wish you peace, joy, and good relationships with your
biological and initiatory family.
<<>...does this mean that Oshun & Ezili want to be
served the same? By the same means & in the same way? What about
Legba & Janus? No, I dont think so.>>
I don't think so either. I think the differences in their names and
their ways of service can vary from culture to culture.
It's sort of like electricity - all electricity is electricity. But
the 120V, 60 cycle per second alternating current in your house is
not used in the same way, and does not behave in the same way, as the
direct current from the C cells in your flashlight. Either one can
be used to give light! And the apparatus used to transform that
energy into light is different in those two cases. But the light is
the same.
<< Yes, but the problems with your argument are several:
First, LaSiren was not originally to be found in the sea, but the
rivers in Haiti. Even Herskovitz makes note of this.
Second: LaSiren is not the only female sea-dwelling wife of Papa
Agwe! So who is who? Who of them all, is the "Queen of the Sea"? >>
None of that makes a bit of difference. Here, and now, in this time
and place, La Sirene is the name that we in Vodou assign to the
female entity of the sea. What she used to be called, what other
names were or are used for that energy, it's all the same energy.
<< Third: If you have ever seen Yemanja @ a bembe in possession you
would note immediately that she looks & acts NOTHING like LaSiren in
possession in Haiti.>>
That has not been my experience. Interestingly, every time I have
been in a bembe and Yemonja appeared (only three, in Holyoke,
Massachusetts), she immediately began calling me, "My child". And I
found that deep, liquid calm and power to be the same vibe.
<< Forth: What about Ezili Herself. She comes from the sea..."Ezili
soti
nan LaMe`..." as the song goes. >>
F-o-u-r-t-h. If that name is or was used at some time or in some
place, fine! The energy is the same.
<<Not all lunar deities have to do with the sea. This is a gross
generalization you are making.>>
I did not say, "All lunar deities have to do with the sea". Go back
and re-read, please.
<< >>>Her color is always blue, obviously,<<<
Nope. Many cultures ascribe the colour green to spirits who are
associated with or who live in the sea.>>
Blue, green, turquoise, same difference, it's the sea color. It's
interesting you mention a sea entity whose color is red, I wonder why
that is?
<< There is only one OCEAN! But there can be a spirit or god for each
people.>>
I would say rather that each people or culture can have a different
name and way of service for the entity of the ocean.
<< How can an entity that lives in the sky NOT be worlwide? In fact
such entities are not! >>
The names change, the sky is the same. And unlike the ocean, there
is more than one *principle* associated with the sky - lightning,
thunder, wind, rain, rainbows...
By the way, I would appreciate it if you would spell my name
correctly, it's M-a-m-b-o R-a-c-i-n-e. If you want to spell it in
Creole it's M-a-m-b-o R-a-s-i-n. Not "Ratsine", not any of the
other deliberately insulting incorrect spellings that you use.
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
>>>The names change, the sky is the same.<<<
Truth told, I think for once we are not that far off the same page.
Correct me if I am wrong: It seems your position is that since
the "sky is the sky", all sky divinities are the same?!! Just as all
Ocean divinities are the same?!! Regardless of what name they are
called now or in the past or in what culture?
Again while this is true in the archetypical sense, it is not so in
the typical sense. You can have Ogou for example. Ogou comes from
NagoLand. (period) wWhether he be the Dahomean Ogou, the Ogou from
Abeokotu, Bahia, Jakmel, or Habana. Arguably this is the same root
Ogou....the same source. BUT in each of those places he has developed
his own personality distinctions, his own likes & dislikes regarding
offerings, & so forth. Does this make him a different entity all
together? Yes & no. Again Archetype vs Type.
Ezili is another perfect example. In Africa Aziri has not always
taken French perfume & Champagne! thats ridiculous! She learned that
& her personality changed & evolved....as do all of ours...on this
side of the water.
True I would not be surprised if Aziri were to acknowledge that ezili
in haiti was her...or she was her, etc. But does this mean that they
can then be reintegrated into a service for ONE entity? Or shall
Aziri & Ezili remain & retain their disticnt services?
This was the point. I realize it is one of both degree & also nuance.
However, the distinction remains.
Later R-A-S-I-N. (You knwo the main reason i tend to take the "E" on
the end is because if I didnt, someone might think I was calling you
a Raisin).
Houngan Aboudja
BTW: as a side note. I think the colour red as associated with the
sea came about because the sea is associated with the womb. Remember,
West African traditional societies tend to view the act of
procreation as a comingling of the Red: Mothers blood, & the White:
Fathers semen. The red goes to make the fleshy & transparent
parts...the white the hard parts such as bone. I think the red is
thus associated with the sea as womb. I could very well be wrong on
this because I am now raking my brain to remember the resource....& I
am failing at the moment. Hope that is of interest anyway.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
In a message dated 12/25/2000 1:17:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abo...@yahoo.com writes:
<< Correct me if I am wrong: It seems your position is that since
the "sky is the sky", all sky divinities are the same?!! Just as all
Ocean divinities are the same?!! Regardless of what name they are
called now or in the past or in what culture?>>
No, that is not what I said.
<<Later R-A-S-I-N. (You knwo the main reason i tend to take the "E" on
the end is because if I didnt, someone might think I was calling you
a Raisin). >>
Yeah, I was real worried that someone might think you were calling me a raisin.
Merry Christmas, I am celebrating with my father and my phone keeps ringing
with friends and initiates calling me. :-)
OmiJuba
speak through odu and in thousands of patakis in which we get to know them
in a more personal way. Is there such a thing in Vodun...stories, tales and
legends of the lwa, a personal record of the life and adventures of the
spirits?
-ÓmėJubā
houngan...@my-deja.com
Not really. This has been largely lost. Not to say we do not
allegorical stories that are helpful, but nothing like pataki. There
are some things....mostly proverbs that fullfill a similar function,
but again...they are nothing to the VOLUMES of data held in the
patakis.
The Lwa in Haiti tend to be more constant in their evolution...in my
opinion & from my experiences in Lukumi houses...than the Orisha who
tend to be more static. By this I mean, that their exploits with other
Lwa...with vodouizan, etc. tend to be localized, but not set down in
any sort of liturgy. Of course, the Lwa DO have widely recognized
relationships: Agwe to Ogou: both of them to Freda, & so forth, but
this is not the same at all.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Is there such a thing in Vodun...stories, tales and
>legends of the lwa, a personal record of the life and adventures of the
>spirits?
Not really, we don't have patakis and things like that. There are
some folktales about "Tezin and Tozin", who are male and female
lwa of the sea served in only a few places in Haiti, and there are
lots of jokes about bokors and so on, but that is about it.
There are, however, whole lists of the *characteristics* of each lwa,
which lwa gets along with which, and so on. At a dance, when there
are more than one lwa present, they usually interact, and that is
when the fun really starts! They act out scenarios which illustrate
their characteristics and relationships.
OmiJuba
Can I assume that a Vodoun "dance" is like the bembes in Ocha, where the
santos come down and interact with the participants? Can the lwa can mount
anyone...regardless if you are there child or not? Must you be initiated in
order to be mounted by lwa or is everyone available for riding? What about
egun...do the spirits also mount like lwa? Is there even a egun cult in
vodoun? How are the ancestors viewed...is it the same as in Ocha?
I would love to have a list of "characteristics" of the lwa so I can see the
similarities they share with the orisha.
How enlightening this thread is!
-ÓmėJubā
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
<omi...@home.com> writes:
>How interesting Racine, can you tell me more about Tezin and Tozin?
Well, let me see... Tezin and Tozin are actually served in the south of
Haiti where I stay, and they are sometimes imaged as children, sometimes
not. I have to go and get someone to repeat that folktale to me, it's
something about a little girl named Tezin who escapes being stolen
by an evil sorcerer by hiding in the sea, which then becomes her home,
something like that, I'll ask when I am in Haiti soon.
>Can I assume that a Vodoun "dance" is like the bembes in Ocha, where the
>santos come down and interact with the participants?
Exactly like that.
>Can the lwa can mount
>anyone...regardless if you are there child or not?
Yes.
> Must you be initiated in
>order to be mounted by lwa or is everyone available for riding?
You don't have to be initiated, but it helps.
>What about
>egun...do the spirits also mount like lwa? Is there even a egun cult in
>vodoun? How are the ancestors viewed...is it the same as in Ocha?
Our "eguns" are referred to as Gede lwa, and in the Makaya
tradition they are called zombi. They are lwa, they aren't in a
separate class, except that they are in a different group of lwa.
>I would love to have a list of "characteristics" of the lwa so I can see the
>similarities they share with the orisha.
Let me get settled in after I arrive in Haiti, and I will get started on that
too.
>How enlightening this thread is!
Yeah, it's nice to have a pleasant discussion of ideas. :-)
houngan...@my-deja.com
"OmiJuba" <omi...@home.com> wrote:
>>>What about egun...do the spirits also mount like lwa? Is there even
a egun cult in vodoun? How are the ancestors viewed...is it the same as
in Ocha?<<<
Hmmm, actually this is a complex issue. In Ginea tradition most
everything tends to be called either a Lwa or a djab. Such a spirit
might be that of your dead great-grandmother....but if she is making
treatments...or otherwise working, they are likely to simply call her
a "Lwa"....just like all the rest & making no distinction
linguistically.
Omijuba....when you say "Egun"....do you mean acestors in general...or
do you mean those very specific ancestral guides that many people have
who may or may not be related biologically, but who none the less have
attached themselves to that persons biological line? Like Msr.
BlackHawk for example?
If this is the case then "Egun" translated in Ginea tradition are NOT
the Gede (who are the often unknown, unreclaimed, & usually uncared for
dead), but are in fact what we call LWA RASIN (Root Lwa). These are
spirits who are passed specifically by the blood line. They come by way
of the paternal & maternal lines (no surprises here). Now other Lwa may
be also inherited....but many Lwa Rasin are spirits unknown elsewhere
in Haiti....or limitedly so. Why, because they belong to you.
For example. I have a Manbo friend in Miami named Nadiyo. She has a
Rasin Lwa (I just can remember His name). Anyway, this Lwa Rasin comes
STRAIGHT from Africa & does NOT recognize the Church at all, at all.
Now Manbo Nadiyo is Catholic. When problems with this Lwa first began,
she dreamt she was at a Mass. In the front MANY people were kneeling
with their hands out waiting for communion. She knelt as well. When the
priest got to her she noticed it was not *her* normal priest but an old
Black man she didnt know....but did know. She waited for her host. He
looked at her, shook his head, & passed her up. She got up, ran to the
end of the line & waited again. Same thing happened.
Now she was upset & went to leave the Church. When she opened the door,
there was this man who @ this time told her many things....not the
least of which was that *He* did not want to be in the Church.
LOL I am sure you have heard such Egun stories as this in Lukumi. There
are so many such similar stories people can tell about their Rasin Lwa/
Egun...& as well it should be. They are closer to us after all....so
They are often more particular.
Ancestors in general....zanset-yo...are delt with & served in the
context of the tradition just as in Lukumi. Note I say "just as"....not
in the same fashion. Just want to make that clear. =)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>If this is the case then "Egun" translated in Ginea tradition are NOT
>the Gede (who are the often unknown, unreclaimed, & usually uncared for
>dead)
Wrong twice. Egun, to the best of my understanding, are ancestors
who return to manifest through the mechanism of possession. That
is the precise definition of a Gede lwa.
Furthermore, Gede lwa are not necessarily unknown and unreclaimed
and uncared for. They are reclaimed by the lwa Baron la Croix and
the lwa Maman Brigitte. They are in fact as often as not Houngans
or Mambos or Vodouisants of some note, who usually have very nice
funerals. They can be uncared-for dead, but they don't have to be and
usually are not.
In fact, Gede lwa can usually tell you who they were in life - I know
one rather atypical Gede who speaks Spanish and strums an
imaginary guitar while he sings love songs to "una mujer", and says
that in life he was a Dominican man visiting Haiti, and when he died
in Haiti he decided to stick around! On the other hand, the Gede who
danced in the head of my first papa asson, Houngan Luc Gedeon,
was murdered by repressive forces in Haiti, and probably didn't have
much of a funeral - when a person was killed by the Macoutes, if
the family tried to hold a funeral or a wake, the Macoutes would come
kill them too!
> but are in fact what we call LWA RASIN (Root Lwa). These are
>spirits who are passed specifically by the blood line.
Well, yes and no. A lwa rasin can be an inherited lwa, but it also means
a "basic" lwa, a "root" lwa like Brav Gede who is not a particular dead
person but an archetypal lwa. Ogoun Feray is a "root lwa", for example.
>...many Lwa Rasin are spirits unknown elsewhere
>in Haiti....or limitedly so.
No, it's just the opposite - in the second sense given above, a lwa rasin
or "root lwa" would be one of the better known lwa, or better known aspects
of a particular lwa.