One Year Later, Palestinians Live in Rubble While Israel Blocks Aid
John Manning
TIME - One year after Israel launched its three-week offensive in Gaza
that killed more than 1,300 Palestinians and damaged or destroyed more
than 50,000 homes in a campaign aimed at stopping Hamas rocket fire, the
survivors are still living in rubble.
And it is not for want of money that thousands of residents of the
coastal enclave remain homeless this winter.
Moved by the plight of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians who were already
reeling from a 2�-year economic siege imposed by Israel with help from
Egypt and the U.S. even before Israel's air-and-ground assault had
begun, international donors earlier this year pledged more than $4.5
billion to repair war damages.
But that aid has failed to reach Gaza, according to Palestinians and
relief agencies who accuse Israel of imposing Kafkaesque rules that bar
from entry vital reconstruction materials and items as innocuous as
glass, most schoolbooks, honey and family-size tubs of margarine.
Says Chris Gunness, spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works
Agency (UNRWA): "Because the Israelis are not allowing in any
reconstruction material, that $4.5 billion is just a paper figure." With
more than 80% of Gazans now surviving on humanitarian handouts from
UNRWA, Gunness adds, "Palestinians are becoming more desperate and more
extreme." (See pictures of Israeli soldiers sweeping into Gaza.)
Relief officials estimate that Gaza needs 40,000 tons of cement and
25,000 tons of iron to start repairing the homes, hospitals, schools and
shops destroyed during Israel's offensive.
But so far, according to GISHA, an Israeli legal-rights group, the
Israelis have allowed only 19 trucks carrying construction material into
Gaza since the war ended last January.
"You could say that Israel has bombed Gaza back into the mud age," says
UNRWA's Gunness, "because that's what they're building their houses out
of now � mud."
Without parts to replace machinery damaged in the war, 97% of Gaza's
factories have shut down, raising unemployment higher than 43%.
With scarce sources of income, many Gazans would probably starve if not
for food handouts from the U.N. and other agencies.
More than 40,000 Gazans have no electricity; 10,000 have no running
water in their homes; and because Israel bans entry of the spare parts
needed to run Gaza's sewage-treatment plant, every day 87 million liters
of sewage are dumped into the Mediterranean (which washes up on Israel's
beaches too).
Although the international community occasionally protests Gaza's
ongoing tragedy, so far no real pressure has been put on Israel to
loosen its stranglehold.
A senior official in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing
government recently confided to a U.N. colleague that Israel's goal for
Gaza was "no development, no prosperity, no humanitarian crisis."
The U.N. official interpreted that to mean that Israel would provide
Gaza with an intravenous drip of relief to keep its 1.5 million
inhabitants alive but just barely, in hopes that the people would
overthrow the Hamas government they voted into power in the latest
Palestinian elections.
But that hasn't happened yet, nor is it likely to: Hamas smuggles arms,
money and supplies into Gaza through tunnels from Egypt, and
increasingly, joining the militants has become the only source of a
monthly wage for young males.
In the meantime, says John Ging, UNRWA's chief officer in Gaza, the
Israeli siege is "facilitating the destruction of a civilized society."
Before the siege, Palestinians in Gaza had prided themselves on the
excellence of their schools and industriousness of their workers, many
of whom, in more peaceful times, held jobs across the fence in Israel.
Read more:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1950180,00.html#ixzz0b5aS7eOX
Honest truth
Israeli victims of Hamas rocket attacks who hold also Belgian citizenship
have filed a complaint against Hamas and appealed to a Belgian court to
arrest the Islamist movement嚙踝蕭s leaders, including de facto Gaza Prime
Minister Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashaal.
They said Hamas rocket fire into Israel had violated their human rights.
The 15 plaintiffs, living in or near the Israeli city of Ashdod, about 15
kilometres (10 miles) north of the Gaza Strip, were wounded by Qassam
rockets, sustained property damage or lost relatives in last year嚙踝蕭s rocket
barrage on southern Israel, which subsided but resumed, albeit at a reduced
level, after the three-week Operation Cast Lead that began in late December
of last year.
Attorney Mordechai Tzivin, representing the plaintiffs, told the French
news agency AFP, "This is a first step in a broad offensive across Europe
that will include Spain, Britain, Italy and other countries.嚙踝蕭
The suit follows several attempts by anti-Zionists in Europe who have
sought the arrest of Israeli political and military leaders.
"The request for arrest warrants was submitted after six months of legal
preparation and is based on strict evidence which ties Hamas leaders to
terror attacks in which Belgian citizens ware harmed," Belgian attorney
Roel Coveliers told AFP.
"This is a case of civilians who are just fed up with being victims of
crimes against international humanitarian law," he said.
The suit charges 10 Hamas leaders of war crimes and is based on the United
Nations Human Rights Commission report authored by Judge Richard Goldstone,
who accused Israel of war crimes but mentioned, almost in passing, that
Hamas rocket attacks on civilians also constitute violations of
international law.
Besides Haniyeh and Mashaal, the top leader of Hamas who is based in
Damascus, the suit names Gaza-based Mahmoud al-Zahar and the leaders of
Hamas嚙踝蕭 嚙踝蕭military嚙踝蕭 division.
An official of the pro-Israel organization that helped launch the suit said
that the group hopes 嚙踝蕭to shatter the myth that draws a parallel between
Israel and terror organizations such as Hamas.嚙踝蕭
In 1993 Belgium began allowing war-crimes cases to be filed by people in
any country claiming violations of their basic rights.
The universal jurisdiction law triggered a spate of politically charged
cases against leaders such as ex-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon,
former President George W. Bush, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and
former British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
The Belgian law was scaled back in 2003 to cover only rights violations
against Belgian nationals.
"This is a case of civilians who are just fed up with being victims of
crimes against international humanitarian law," Coveliers said.
Britain and Spain also have laws allowing charges against foreign
officials. The UK promised to change its law so judges can no longer issue
secret arrest warrants against foreign officials. The move came after
Israelis expressed outrage when it emerged this month a London judge had
issued an arrest warrant for Tzipi Livni, the former Israeli Foreign
Minister, on suspicion of involvement in war crimes.
Belgium's federal prosecutor's office will determine if the complaint
against the Hamas leaders has merit.
If so, it will appoint an investigating judge to review it in detail before
any prosecution could start.
> campaign aimed at stopping Hamas rocket fire,
--
嚙踝蕭Of all the extreme fanaticism which plays havoc in man嚙踝蕭s nature, there is
not one as irrational as anti-Semitism. 嚙皺 If the Jews are rich [these
fanatics] are victims of theft. If they are poor, they are victims of
ridicule. If they take sides in a war, it is because they wish to take
advantage from the spilling of non-Jewish blood. If they espouse peace, it
is because they are scared by their natures or traitors. If the Jew dwells
in a foreign land he is persecuted and expelled. If he wishes to return to
his own land, he is prevented from doing so.嚙踝蕭
Lloyd George
teresita
> Belgium's federal prosecutor's office will determine if the complaint
> against the Hamas leaders has merit.
I'm holding my breath!
--
Teresita
http://hackylinux.blogspot.com/
Ben Kaufman
<SNIP>
It is difficult to turn on a TV or radio or pick up a newspaper these days,
without finding some pundit or other deploring the dismal prospects for
Israeli-Palestinian peace or the dreadful living conditions of the Palestinians.
Even supposedly neutral news reporters regularly repeat this sad tale. "Very
little is changing for the Palestinian people on the ground," I heard BBC World
Service Cairo correspondent Christian Fraser tell listeners three times in a 45
minute period the other evening.
In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I had spent that day in the
West Bank's largest city, Nablus. The city is bursting with energy, life and
signs of prosperity, in a way I have not previously seen in many years of
covering the region.
.....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107104574571491401847518.html
Tim McGaughy
The discussion you snipped was about the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank.
Ben Kaufman
The subject doesn't specify Gaza.
John Manning
You can't be that stupid, Ben. Here's the first sentence of the article:
Ben Kaufman
John, pay attention to what *you* wrote as the subject. Had you said
"Palestinians under Hamas rule" or "Palestinians in Gaza" I would have not
bothered to include an article describing how life is for all of the other
Palestinians who were fortunate not to get sucked into the middle of that
mini-war instigated by and prolonged by Hamas.
Ben
John Manning
Who do you think you're fooling, Ben? The article is specifically about
Palestinians in Gaza. For you to suggest otherwise is asinine.
The title is accurate in every word as the text of the article makes
undeniably clear in illustration.
Your hateful bigoted bias against the Palestinian people is as glaringly
transparent now as it has been in any discussion I've had with you in
the past.
Tim McGaughy
The discussion you snipped does.
Tim McGaughy
"While Israel Blocks Aid"
Israel isn't blocking aid to the West Bank. It's quite clear what the
subject refers to.
Ben Kaufman
No John, as a matter of fact, I have gone on the record here condemning some of
the things that Israel has done to Palestinians.
You on the other hand appear to be an avid Hamas supporter. As far as I can
recall in earlier conversation you refused to concede that Hamas had any
culpability for the suffering in Gaza. Am I mistaken or is that your position?
Ben
Ben Kaufman
No, I felt the subject was crafted to intentionally blur the distinction
between the entire Palestinian people and the subset suffering under Hamas
rule in Gaza. I had no problem with the article, just John's subject.
Ben
Ben Kaufman
I have clearly stated (just 2 lines above) that my issue was with the subject:
"One Year Later, Palestinians Live in Rubble While Israel Blocks Aid," which
does not specify Gaza
If it had, then I would not have posted the article showing "Palestinians" not
living in rubble in other places.
John Manning
The fact that you've dishonestly dodged and ignored the widely
recognized facts in the content of the title post dramatically indicates
that your claim is half-baked, insincere horse shit.
> You on the other hand appear to be an avid Hamas supporter. As far as I can
> recall in earlier conversation you refused to concede that Hamas had any
> culpability for the suffering in Gaza. Am I mistaken or is that your position?
>
In my view Hamas is a radical criminal group reacting to the abuses of
the vastly superior oppressive Israeli power machine. And the right wing
fascists in the Israeli government are guilty of wholesale long term
human rights abuses against the Palestinian people.
I also believe that the majority of the Palestinian people and the
majority of the Jewish people just want to live normal peaceful lives
and come to a reasonable and fair peaceful solution.
Your history of hateful bigotry and bias against Palestinians is clear.
You're an apologist for Israel's decades long abuses and occupation of
the Palestinians and their incremental stealing of Palestinian lands.
I have no interest whatsoever in having another pointless discussion
with you.
Readers can view for themselves an example of the illegal incremental
stealing of Palestinian lands by the Israelis that was published earlier
this year in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
~ Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements ~
Article here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html
>
> Ben
duke
>
>
>TIME - One year after Israel launched its three-week offensive in Gaza
>that killed more than 1,300 Palestinians and damaged or destroyed more
>than 50,000 homes in a campaign aimed at stopping Hamas rocket fire, the
>survivors are still living in rubble.
Gosh, this problem would go away if only they stopped militant Islam.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Tim McGaughy
Yes.
livvy
that began long before one year ago, if you read a book or two, and
didn't get all you "know" from blogs, you'd know that. Fine to
take many things in, just be sure you know what you're talking about.
You can read and learn about all sides of an issue, and make your own
determination. Don't lash at others because you got the latest thing
from the internet .....who can't do that? US has has a lot of our
own internal battles, start at home. If you can go to that region and
make a difference, then you go. Talk is easy and risk-less.
On Dec 29 2009, 9:50 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> TIME - One year after Israel launched its three-week offensive in Gaza
> that killed more than 1,300 Palestinians and damaged or destroyed more
> than 50,000 homes in a campaign aimed at stopping Hamas rocket fire, the
> survivors are still living in rubble.
>
> And it is not for want of money that thousands of residents of the
> coastal enclave remain homeless this winter.
>
> Moved by the plight of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians who were already
> reeling from a 2 -year economic siege imposed by Israel with help from
> Egypt and the U.S. even before Israel's air-and-ground assault had
> begun, international donors earlier this year pledged more than $4.5
> billion to repair war damages.
>
> But that aid has failed to reach Gaza, according to Palestinians and
> relief agencies who accuse Israel of imposing Kafkaesque rules that bar
> from entry vital reconstruction materials and items as innocuous as
> glass, most schoolbooks, honey and family-size tubs of margarine.
>
> Says Chris Gunness, spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works
> Agency (UNRWA): "Because the Israelis are not allowing in any
> reconstruction material, that $4.5 billion is just a paper figure." With
> more than 80% of Gazans now surviving on humanitarian handouts from
> UNRWA, Gunness adds, "Palestinians are becoming more desperate and more
> extreme." (See pictures of Israeli soldiers sweeping into Gaza.)
>
> Relief officials estimate that Gaza needs 40,000 tons of cement and
> 25,000 tons of iron to start repairing the homes, hospitals, schools and
> shops destroyed during Israel's offensive.
>
> But so far, according to GISHA, an Israeli legal-rights group, the
> Israelis have allowed only 19 trucks carrying construction material into
> Gaza since the war ended last January.
>
> "You could say that Israel has bombed Gaza back into the mud age," says
> UNRWA's Gunness, "because that's what they're building their houses out
> of now mud."
> Read more:http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1950180,00.html#ixzz0b5...
John Manning
> nice quoting a Time article....cheers. This is an historical battle
> that began long before one year ago, if you read a book or two, and
> didn't get all you "know" from blogs, you'd know that. Fine to
> take many things in, just be sure you know what you're talking about.
> You can read and learn about all sides of an issue, and make your own
> determination. Don't lash at others because you got the latest thing
> from the internet .....who can't do that? US has has a lot of our
> own internal battles, start at home. If you can go to that region and
> make a difference, then you go. Talk is easy and risk-less.
>
Translation: "As an apologist for the decades long human rights abuses
and oppression of the Palestinian people and the systematic incremental
theft of Palestinian lands by the vastly superior Israeli military power
machine, I will ignore any evidence confirming such egregious human
rights abuses and suggest that readers go elsewhere to get their
information."
Here's some more information that these Israeli apologists will likely
be eager to ignore:
~ Intelligence Found Iran Nuke Document Was Forged - Israel is the
Primary Suspect -
WASHINGTON, Dec 28 (IPS) - U.S. intelligence has concluded that the
document published recently by the Times of London, which purportedly
describes an Iranian plan to do experiments on what the newspaper
described as a "neutron initiator" for an atomic weapon, is a
fabrication, according to a former Central Intelligence Agency official.
Philip Giraldi, who was a CIA counterterrorism official from 1976 to
1992, told IPS that intelligence sources say that the United States had
nothing to do with forging the document, and that Israel is the primary
suspect. The sources do not rule out a British role in the fabrication,
however.
The Times of London story published Dec. 14 did not identify the source
of the document. But it quoted "an Asian intelligence source" - a term
some news media have used for Israeli intelligence officials - as
confirming that his government believes Iran was working on a neutron
initiator as recently as 2007.
The story of the purported Iranian document prompted a new round of
expressions of U.S. and European support for tougher sanctions against
Iran and reminders of Israel's threats to attack Iranian nuclear
programme targets if diplomacy fails.
U.S. news media reporting has left the impression that U.S. intelligence
analysts have not made up their mind about the document's authenticity,
although it has been widely reported that they have now had a full year
to assess the issue.
Giraldi's intelligence sources did not reveal all the reasons that led
analysts to conclude that the purported Iran document had been
fabricated by a foreign intelligence agency. But their suspicions of
fraud were prompted in part by the source of the story, according to
Giraldi.
"The Rupert Murdoch chain has been used extensively to publish false
intelligence from the Israelis and occasionally from the British
government," Giraldi said.
The Times is part of a Murdoch publishing empire that includes the
Sunday Times, Fox News and the New York Post. All Murdoch-owned news
media report on Iran with an aggressively pro-Israeli slant.
The document itself also had a number of red flags suggesting possible
or likely fraud.
The subject of the two-page document which the Times published in
English translation would be highly classified under any state's
security system. Yet there is no confidentiality marking on the
document, as can be seen from the photograph of the Farsi-language
original published by the Times.
The absence of security markings has been cited by the Iranian
ambassador to the International Atomic Energy Agency, Ali Asghar
Soltanieh, as evidence that the "alleged studies" documents, which were
supposedly purloined from an alleged Iranian nuclear weapons-related
programme early in this decade, are forgeries.
The document also lacks any information identifying either the issuing
office or the intended recipients. The document refers cryptically to
"the Centre", "the Institute", "the Committee", and the "neutron group".
The document's extreme vagueness about the institutions does not appear
to match the concreteness of the plans, which call for hiring eight
individuals for different tasks for very specific numbers of hours for a
four-year time frame.
Including security markings and such identifying information in a
document increases the likelihood of errors that would give the fraud away.
The absence of any date on the document also conflicts with the
specificity of much of the information. The Times reported that
unidentified "foreign intelligence agencies" had dated the document to
early 2007, but gave no reason for that judgment.
An obvious motive for suggesting the early 2007 date is that it would
discredit the U.S. intelligence community's November 2007 National
Intelligence Estimate, which concluded that Iran had discontinued
unidentified work on nuclear weapons and had not resumed it as of the
time of the estimate.
Discrediting the NIE has been a major objective of the Israeli
government for the past two years, and the British and French
governments have supported the Israeli effort.
The biggest reason for suspecting that the document is a fraud is its
obvious effort to suggest past Iranian experiments related to a neutron
initiator. After proposing experiments on detecting pulsed neutrons, the
document refers to "locations where such experiments used to be conducted".
That reference plays to the widespread assumption, which has been
embraced by the International Atomic Energy Agency, that Iran had
carried out experiments with Polonium-210 in the late 1980s, indicating
an interest in neutron initiators. The IAEA referred in reports from
2004 through 2007 to its belief that the experiment with Polonium-210
had potential relevance to making "a neutron initiator in some designs
of nuclear weapons".
The National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), the political arm of
the terrorist organisation Mujahedeen-e Khalq, claimed in February 2005
that Iran's research with Polonium-210 was continuing and that it was
now close to producing a neutron initiator for a nuclear weapon.
Sanger and Broad were so convinced that the Polonium-210 experiments
proved Iran's interest in a neutron initiator that they referred in
their story on the leaked document to both the IAEA reports on the
experiments in the late 1980s and the claim by NCRI of continuing
Iranian work on such a nuclear trigger.
What Sanger and Broad failed to report, however, is that the IAEA has
acknowledged that it was mistaken in its earlier assessment that the
Polonium-210 experiments were related to a neutron initiator.
After seeing the complete documentation on the original project,
including complete copies of the reactor logbook for the entire period,
the IAEA concluded in its Feb. 22, 2008 report that Iran's explanations
that the Polonium-210 project was fundamental research with the eventual
aim of possible application to radio isotope batteries was "consistent
with the Agency's findings and with other information available to it".
The IAEA report said the issue of Polonium-210 � and thus the earlier
suspicion of an Iranian interest in using it as a neutron initiator for
a nuclear weapon - was now considered "no longer outstanding".
New York Times reporters David Sanger and William J. Broad reported U.S.
intelligence officials as saying the intelligence analysts "have yet to
authenticate the document". Sanger and Broad explained the failure to do
so, however, as a result of excessive caution left over from the CIA's
having failed to brand as a fabrication the document purporting to show
an Iraqi effort to buy uranium in Niger.
The Washington Post's Joby Warrick dismissed the possibility that the
document might be found to be fraudulent. "There is no way to establish
the authenticity or original source of the document...," wrote Warrick.
But the line that the intelligence community had authenticated it
evidently reflected the Barack Obama administration's desire to avoid
undercutting a story that supports its efforts to get Russian and
Chinese support for tougher sanctions against Iran.
This is not the first time that Giraldi has been tipped off by his
intelligence sources on forged documents. Giraldi identified the
individual or office responsible for creating the two most notorious
forged documents in recent U.S. intelligence history.
In 2005, Giraldi identified Michael Ledeen, the extreme right-wing
former consultant to the National Security Council and the Pentagon, as
an author of the fabricated letter purporting to show Iraqi interest in
purchasing uranium from Niger. That letter was used by the George W.
Bush administration to bolster its false case that Saddam Hussein had an
active nuclear weapons programme.
Giraldi also identified officials in the "Office of Special Plans" who
worked under Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith as
having forged a letter purportedly written by Hussein's intelligence
director, Tahir Jalail Habbush al-Tikriti, to Hussein himself referring
to an Iraqi intelligence operation to arrange for an unidentified
shipment from Niger.
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=49833
Ben Kaufman
Still up to your bullshit tactics when you can't win an argument like the last
time I wiped the floor with you over the unsupportable claim you made that the
tunnel to the Israel position was for bootlegging.
Ben
Ben Kaufman
John, cut the crap. I am addressing only what you did. The Time article's own
title said "Gaza" , not "Palestinians" - which you deliberately omitted. Funny
how you cut and past the whole article except the actual title of the article .
Psychologically, first impressions, even if misrepresentations, have a stronger
impact.
>
>
>
>> You on the other hand appear to be an avid Hamas supporter. As far as I can
>> recall in earlier conversation you refused to concede that Hamas had any
>> culpability for the suffering in Gaza. Am I mistaken or is that your position?
>>
>
>
>In my view Hamas is a radical criminal group reacting to the abuses of
>the vastly superior oppressive Israeli power machine. And the right wing
>fascists in the Israeli government are guilty of wholesale long term
>human rights abuses against the Palestinian people.
John, Hamas is part of the Iran/Syria effort to take down Israel and very
clearly uses the Palestinian people as human shields in their efforts. Who in
their sane mind would methodically draw anti-missile attacks against civilian
dwellings, especially after seeing what the consequences were if they gave a
rats ass about Palestinians? And lets not forget Hamas's torture and killing of
Palestinians opposed to Hamas. They are not fighting for the Palestinian
people, wake up!!!
>
>I also believe that the majority of the Palestinian people and the
>majority of the Jewish people just want to live normal peaceful lives
>and come to a reasonable and fair peaceful solution.
>
Really? So why don't you ever post encouraging articles when things are looking
better for Palestinians?
>Your history of hateful bigotry and bias against Palestinians is clear.
Nonsense. I believe that any country has the right to self defense and Israel
was entitled to take offensive measures to stop the missile barrages.
I can support Israelis decision to not sit on their hands while condemning
certain acts committed that were illegal, the two are not mutually exclusive.
But for you to condone Hamas's role in the instigation and prolongation of this
mini-war is indicative of a bias.
>You're an apologist for Israel's decades long abuses and occupation of
>the Palestinians and their incremental stealing of Palestinian lands.
>
Nonsense, Mr Ad hominem , you are too quick to accuse people of things rather
than address what they are saying. I have gone on record here, in conversations
with Duwayne, against some of the Israeli actions against Palestinians as well
as my empathy for Palestinian civilian suffering . But unlike you, I make an
attempt to see things in context. Look at what happened after Israel gave land
for peace. How long did that peace last? Who in his right mind is going to
hand over more land?
>I have no interest whatsoever in having another pointless discussion
>with you.
>
<SNIP>
That;s your problem, you don't have discussions. You either use ad hominem (I'm
an Israeli apologist or R.L. Measures is a closet gay) or cut and paste.
Ben
John Manning
For readers who may have missed it here's what Ben <SNIPPED>:
Tim McGaughy
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Can't make a valid point, so you change the subject. Good one.
livvy
what I want, as I'm allowed, you continue to cut and paste all the
crap you want, as you are allowed. But don't ever insinuate yourself
into anything I say, it has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with
you. Be clear on this matter....
> The IAEA report said the issue of Polonium-210 – and thus the earlier
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John Manning
> How dare you, sluggo, there is no "Translation" required. I'll say
> what I want, as I'm allowed, you continue to cut and paste all the
> crap you want, as you are allowed. But don't ever insinuate yourself
> into anything I say, it has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with
> you. Be clear on this matter....
>
Grow up, twit. Israel is on the world community's shit list because of
its egregious decades long human rights abuses and oppression of the
Palestinian people and the systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
lands by its vastly superior military power machine.
Being an apologist for Israeli policies and therefor being complicit in
Israel's war crimes and human rights abuses, you're incapable of
admitting that truth.
Here's a documented example published in Israel's Haaretz newspaper of
Israel's systematic incremental theft of Palestinian lands:
~ Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements ~
Article here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html
>> The IAEA report said the issue of Polonium-210 � and thus the earlier
>> read more �- Hide quoted text -
Day Brown
> How dare you, sluggo, there is no "Translation" required. I'll say
> what I want, as I'm allowed, you continue to cut and paste all the
> crap you want, as you are allowed. But don't ever insinuate yourself
> into anything I say, it has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with
> you. Be clear on this matter....
ambiguity. Thus, we see them jump to conclusions based on inadequate
information and then zealously defend whatever their position is, with
the idea that only their side has the truth, and all other views are lies.
Gaza attracts such neurotic zealots, and the insanity has reached the
stage where even the Egyptians are building a wall trying to control
their side of the border.
Granted, the Israelis would do well to get up to speed on psychological
analysis and quit with the iron fist. Course, they have their own
zealots who have stable careers using brute force.
John Manning
This is an example of minimizing the gross human rights abuses and
blatant injustices of a decades long oppressive occupation by a vastly
superior military power machine. And it comes from a pseudo-intellectual
religionist buffoon.
Ben Kaufman
You edited what I wrote down to a single word, liar.
Tim McGaughy
What you wrote was irrelevant, Sunshine. Israel really isn't blocking
aid to the West Bank, and it really is quite clear that the subject
refers to Gaza.
.
Ben Kaufman
Nice case of the tea kettle calling the pot black. But in your case, John, you
don't minimize, you totally ignore the history of Jews stripped and expelled
from their Arab home lands, attempts to annihilate Israel, the atrocious
terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians and the use of Palestinians as political
pawns ( Arafat alone made billions off of Palestinian misery).
People who refuse to seriously see both sides of a conflict are the true
barriers to peace.
Ben
John Manning
Justifying Israel's gross human rights abuses and blatant injustices of
a decades long oppressive occupation by a vastly superior military power
machine by asserting that Jews were abused in the past is another
example of the continuing blatant anti-Palestinian hatred that fuels and
perpetuates the conflict and reveals that Ben is just as complicit in
human rights violations against Palestinians as those Arabs he claims
were complicit in human rights violations against Jews.
Ben is another noted long-term apologist for Israel's human rights abuses.
livvy
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
and if you'd spent a minute paying attention in school, or in church,
or reading, you'd know better. Your education is from the internet,
as you see fit. Who can't do that? Searching around for stuff
that suits your limited knowledge base....it's out there, and....oh,
crap, who cares. It's all way more than what you think.....because
you don't. Find something to do.
John Manning
This dim bulb simply can't handle the facts.
duke
All they have to do to live a wonderful life is put down the guns.
>TIME - One year after Israel launched its three-week offensive in Gaza
>that killed more than 1,300 Palestinians and damaged or destroyed more
>than 50,000 homes in a campaign aimed at stopping Hamas rocket fire, the
>survivors are still living in rubble.
>
>And it is not for want of money that thousands of residents of the
>coastal enclave remain homeless this winter.
>
>http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1950180,00.html#ixzz0b5aS7eOX
WangoTango
@cox.net says...
>
> All they have to do to live a wonderful life is put down the guns.
Yep, every time Israel gives them concessions they use the time to build
up missile sites and rearm themselves. Funny how 'they' are crying for
food and housing when they seem to have all the time, money, and energy
to set up, buy, and use missiles and other arms.
The bottom line is exactly what you said, just put down the guns and go
on with their lives.
Ben Kaufman
John, let me remind you of what you said a few days ago when I asked you if
Hamas had any culpability for the min-war in Gaza.
(John Manning)
"In my view Hamas is a radical criminal group reacting to the abuses of
the vastly superior oppressive Israeli power machine. And the right wing
fascists in the Israeli government are guilty of wholesale long term
human rights abuses against the Palestinian people."
Very obvious who is the apologist, John.
Ben
John Manning
Your pathetic, open and empty attempt to change the subject is another
example of your intransigent unwillingness to acknowledge Israel's gross
human rights abuses, blatant injustices of a *decades long* oppressive
occupation and systematic theft of land from the Palestinians by its
vastly superior military power machine.
Like I said: Ben is another noted long-term apologist for Israel's human
rights abuses.
Ben Kaufman
John, your pathetic tactics of ducking questions and ad hominem are fooling no
one but yourself. Just the other day I reminded you that I have condemned
Israel for some of their actions against Palestinians so clearly when you state
in the above that "I have an unwillingness to acknowledge" shows that you have
switched from ad hominem to out right lying.
In fact you are the one with an unwillingness to acknowledge anything that
Arabs have done against Palestinians. For example, how Arafat (a Palestinian
leader) made billions off of Palestinian suffering, or how there would have
been no Gaza mini war if Hamas stopped firing rockets when Israel said "cut it
out or we are coming in," or even after Israel was in and it was clear that
every time they fired rockets it meant putting civilians in jeopardy?
Ben
John Manning
"Arafat made billions off of Palestinian suffering" ???
Arafat is long gone and I doubt you can back up those horse shit claims.
or how there would have
> been no Gaza mini war if Hamas stopped firing rockets when Israel said "cut it
> out or we are coming in,"
Practically impotent Qassam rockets [glorified bottle rockets] against
Israel's vastly superior military machine is an ongoing ugly absurdity.
The world community recognizes the gross disproportionate massive
brutality of the Israeli's retaliatory actions -- 13 Israeli deaths
compared to an estimated 1300 Palestinian deaths, massive
infrastructural damage in Gaza and Israel's denial of not only needed
materials to rebuild but also of essential supplies for humane living
conditions.
==
SEE ALSO: UN backs Gaza war crimes report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8342915.stm
==
Israel's ongoing continuing comprehensive human rights abuses and
criminal oppression of the Palestinian people - along with - its
continuing systematic incremental ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land is
another illustration of the evil of it's right wing fascist leadership.
or even after Israel was in and it was clear that
> every time they fired rockets it meant putting civilians in jeopardy?
>
>
> Ben
Imposing Middle East Peace
"Israel is the only apartheid regime in the Western world"
by Henry Siegman, former Executive Director of the American Jewish
Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America
The NATION - Israel's relentless drive to establish "facts on the
ground" in the occupied West Bank, a drive that continues in violation
of even the limited settlement freeze to which Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu committed himself, seems finally to have succeeded in locking
in the irreversibility of its colonial project.
As a result of that "achievement," one that successive Israeli
governments have long sought in order to preclude the possibility of a
two-state solution, Israel has crossed the threshold from "the only
democracy in the Middle East" to the only apartheid regime in the
Western world.
The inevitability of such a transformation has been held out not by
"Israel bashers" but by the country's own leaders.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon referred to that danger, as did Prime
Minister Ehud Olmert, who warned that Israel could not escape turning
into an apartheid state if it did not relinquish "almost all the
territories, if not all," including the Arab parts of East Jerusalem.
Olmert ridiculed Israeli defense strategists who, he said, had learned
nothing from past experiences and were stuck in the mindset of the 1948
war of independence.
"With them, it is all about tanks and land and controlling territories
and controlled territories and this hilltop and that hilltop," he said.
"All these things are worthless. Who thinks seriously that if we sit on
another hilltop, on another hundred meters, that this is what will make
the difference for the State of Israel's basic security?"
It is now widely recognized in most Israeli circles--although denied by
Israel's government--that the settlements have become so widespread and
so deeply implanted in the West Bank as to rule out the possibility of
their removal (except for a few isolated and sparsely populated ones) by
this or any future Israeli government unless compelled to do so by
international intervention, an eventuality until now considered entirely
unlikely.
It is not only the settlements' proliferation and size that have made
their dismantlement impossible. Equally decisive have been the influence
of Israel's settler-security-industrial complex, which conceived and
implemented this policy; the recent disappearance of a viable pro-peace
political party in Israel; and the infiltration by settlers and their
supporters in the religious-national camp into key leadership positions
in Israel's security and military establishments.
Olmert was mistaken in one respect, for he said Israel would turn into
an apartheid state when the Arab population in Greater Israel outnumbers
the Jewish population.
But the relative size of the populations is not the decisive factor in
such a transition. Rather, the turning point comes when a state denies
national self-determination to a part of its population--even one that
is in the minority--to which it has also denied the rights of citizenship.
When a state's denial of the individual and national rights of a large
part of its population becomes permanent, it ceases to be a democracy.
When the reason for that double disenfranchisement is that population's
ethnic and religious identity, the state is practicing a form of
apartheid, or racism, not much different from the one that characterized
South Africa from 1948 to 1994.
The democratic dispensation that Israel provides for its mostly Jewish
citizens cannot hide its changed character.
By definition, democracy reserved for privileged citizens--while all
others are kept behind checkpoints, barbed-wire fences and separation
walls commanded by the Israeli army--is not democracy but its opposite.
The Jewish settlements and their supporting infrastructure, which span
the West Bank from east to west and north to south, are not a wild
growth, like weeds in a garden. They have been carefully planned,
financed and protected by successive Israeli governments and Israel's
military.
Their purpose has been to deny the Palestinian people independence and
statehood--or to put it more precisely, to retain Israeli control of
Palestine "from the river to the sea," an objective that precludes the
existence of a viable and sovereign Palestinian state east of Israel's
pre-1967 border.
A vivid recollection from the time I headed the American Jewish Congress
is a helicopter trip over the West Bank on which I was taken by Ariel
Sharon. With large, worn maps in hand, he pointed out to me strategic
locations of present and future settlements on east-west and north-south
axes that, Sharon assured me, would rule out a future Palestinian state.
Just one year after the 1967 war, Moshe Dayan, then defense minister,
described Israel's plan for the future of the territories as "the
current reality." "The plan is being implemented in actual fact," he
said. "What exists today must remain as a permanent arrangement in the
West Bank."
Ten years later, at a conference in Tel Aviv whose theme was finding a
solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, Dayan said: "The question is
not, What is the solution? but, How do we live without a solution?"
Prime Minister Netanyahu's conditions for Palestinian statehood would
leave under Israel's control Palestine's international borders and
airspace, as well as the entire Jordan Valley; would leave most of the
settlers in place; and would fragment the contiguity of the territory
remaining for such a state.
His conditions would also deny Palestinians even those parts of East
Jerusalem that Israel unilaterally annexed to the city immediately
following the 1967 war--land that had never been part of Jerusalem
before the war. In other words, Netanyahu's conditions for Palestinian
statehood would meet Dayan's goal of leaving Israel's de facto
occupation in place.
From Dayan's prescription for the permanence of the status quo to
Netanyahu's prescription for a two-state solution, Israel has lived
"without a solution," not because of uncertainty or neglect but as a
matter of deliberate policy, clandestinely driving settlement expansion
to the point of irreversibility while pretending to search for "a
Palestinian partner for peace."
Sooner or later the White House, Congress and the American public--not
to speak of a Jewish establishment that is largely out of touch with the
younger Jewish generation's changing perceptions of Israel's
behavior--will have to face the fact that America's "special
relationship" with Israel is sustaining a colonial enterprise.
President Barack Obama's capitulation to Netanyahu on the settlement
freeze was widely seen as the collapse of the latest hope for
achievement of a two-state agreement. It thoroughly discredited the
notion that Palestinian moderation is the path to statehood, and
therefore also discredited Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud
Abbas, moderation's leading Palestinian advocate, who announced his
intention not to run in the coming presidential elections.
Netanyahu's "limited" freeze was described by the Obama administration
as "unprecedented," even though the exceptions to it--3,000 housing
units whose foundations had supposedly already been laid, public
buildings and unlimited construction in East Jerusalem--brought total
construction to where it would have been without a freeze.
Indeed, Netanyahu assured the settler leadership and his cabinet that
construction will resume after the ten-month freeze--according to
minister Benny Begin, at a rate "faster and more than before"--even if
Abbas agrees to return to talks.
In fact, the Israeli press has reported that the freeze notwithstanding,
new construction in the settlements is "booming."
None of this has elicited the Obama administration's public rebuke, much
less the kinds of sanctions imposed on Palestinians when they violate
agreements.
But what is widely believed to have been the final blow to a two-state
solution may in fact turn out to be the necessary condition for its
eventual achievement. That condition is abandonment of the utterly
wrongheaded idea that a Palestinian state can arise without forceful
outside intervention.
The international community has shown signs of exasperation with
Israel's deceptions and stonewalling, and also with Washington's failure
to demonstrate that there are consequences not only for Palestinian
violations of agreements but for Israeli ones as well.
The last thing many in the international community want is a resumption
of predictably meaningless negotiations between Netanyahu and Abbas.
Instead, they are focusing on forceful third-party intervention, a
concept that is no longer taboo.
Ironically, it is Netanyahu who now insists on the resumption of peace
talks.
For him, a prolonged breakdown of talks risks exposing the
irreversibility of the settlements, and therefore the loss of Israel's
democratic character, and legitimizing outside intervention as the only
alternative to an unstable and dangerous status quo.
While the Obama administration may be reluctant to support such
initiatives, it may no longer wish to block them.
These are not fanciful fears. Israeli chiefs of military intelligence,
the Shin Bet and other defense officials told Netanyahu's security
cabinet on December 9 that the stalled peace process has led to a
dangerous vacuum "into which a number of different states are putting
their own initiatives, none of which are in Israel's favor." They
stressed that "the fact that the US has also reached a dead-end in its
efforts only worsens the problem."
If these fears are realized and the international community abandons a
moribund peace process in favor of determined third-party initiatives, a
two-state outcome may yet be possible.
A recent proposal by the Swedish presidency of the European Union is
perhaps the first indication of the international community's
determination to react more meaningfully to Netanyahu's intransigence.
The proposal, adopted by the EU's foreign ministers on December 8,
reaffirmed an earlier declaration of the European Council that the EU
would not recognize unilateral Israeli changes in the pre-1967 borders.
The resolution also opposes Israeli measures to deny a prospective
Palestinian state any presence in Jerusalem.
The statement's endorsement of PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's two-year
institution-building initiative suggests a future willingness to act
favorably on a Palestinian declaration of statehood following the
initiative's projected completion. In her first pronouncement on the
Israel-Palestine conflict as the EU's new high representative for
foreign affairs and security policy, Baroness Catherine Ashton declared,
"We cannot and nor, I doubt, can the region tolerate another round of
fruitless negotiations."
An imposed solution has risks, but these do not begin to compare with
the risks of the conflict's unchecked continuation. Furthermore, since
the adversaries are not being asked to accept anything they have not
already committed themselves to in formal accords, the international
community is not imposing its own ideas but insisting the parties live
up to existing obligations. That kind of intervention, or "imposition,"
is hardly unprecedented; it is the daily fare of international
diplomacy. It defines America's relations with allies and unfriendly
countries alike.
It would not take extraordinary audacity for Obama to reaffirm the
official position of every previous US administration--including that of
George W. Bush--that no matter how desirable or necessary certain
changes in the pre-1967 status may seem, they cannot be made unilaterally.
Even Bush, celebrated in Israel as "the best American president Israel
ever had," stated categorically that this inviolable principle applies
even to the settlement blocs that Israel insists it will annex. Speaking
of these blocs at a May 2005 press conference, Bush affirmed that
"changes to the 1949 armistice lines must be mutually agreed to," a
qualification largely ignored by Israeli governments (and by Bush himself).
The next year Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was even more
explicit. She stated that "the president did say that at the time of
final status, it will be necessary to take into account new realities on
the ground that have changed since 1967, but under no
circumstances...should anyone try and do that in a pre-emptive or
predetermined way, because these are issues for negotiation at final
status."
Of course, Obama should leave no doubt that it is inconceivable for the
United States not to be fully responsive to Israel's genuine security
needs, no matter how displeased it may be with a particular Israeli
government's policies.
But he must also leave no doubt that it is equally inconceivable he
would abandon America's core values or compromise its strategic
interests to keep Netanyahu's government in power, particularly when
support for this government means supporting a regime that would
permanently disenfranchise and dispossess the Palestinian people.
In short, Middle East peacemaking efforts will continue to fail, and the
possibility of a two-state solution will disappear, if US policy
continues to ignore developments on the ground in the occupied
territories and within Israel, which now can be reversed only through
outside intervention.
President Obama is uniquely positioned to help Israel reclaim Jewish and
democratic ideals on which the state was founded--if he does not
continue "politics as usual." But was it not his promise to reject just
such a politics that swept Obama into the presidency and captured the
amazement and respect of the entire world?
Ben Kaufman
Very easy to back up.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml
or
http://tinyurl.com/ufse
As for Arafat being "long gone" you are the one who is talking about the
decades of issues where he was running the show.
>
>or how there would have
>> been no Gaza mini war if Hamas stopped firing rockets when Israel said "cut it
>> out or we are coming in,"
>
>
>Practically impotent Qassam rockets [glorified bottle rockets] against
>Israel's vastly superior military machine is an ongoing ugly absurdity.
>
You could say the same thing about the recebt crotch bomber, he didn't kill
anyone yet he succeeded in creatinging bountiful terror. Imagine that
happening to a few airliners a day.
>The world community recognizes the gross disproportionate massive
>brutality of the Israeli's retaliatory actions -- 13 Israeli deaths
>compared to an estimated 1300 Palestinian deaths, massive
>infrastructural damage in Gaza and Israel's denial of not only needed
>materials to rebuild but also of essential supplies for humane living
>conditions.
But this doesn't answer the question of why Hamas continued to provoke
anti-rocket responses where the main loss would be in the form of civilian
property and civilian casualties, unless they were martrying their own people.
John Manning
Arafat's financial misdeeds have nothing to do with Israel's continuing
ongoing comprehensive human rights abuses and criminal oppression of the
Palestinian people - along with - its continuing systematic incremental
ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land.
>> or how there would have
>>> been no Gaza mini war if Hamas stopped firing rockets when Israel said "cut it
>>> out or we are coming in,"
>>
>> Practically impotent Qassam rockets [glorified bottle rockets] against
>> Israel's vastly superior military machine is an ongoing ugly absurdity.
>>
>
> You could say the same thing about the recebt crotch bomber, he didn't kill
> anyone yet he succeeded in creatinging bountiful terror. Imagine that
> happening to a few airliners a day.
>
That's a completely bogus comparison and is certainly NO justification
for Israel's continuing gross, comprehensive human rights abuses,
wholesale criminal oppression and documented war crimes against the
whole Palestinian people - along with - its continuing systematic
incremental ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land.
You're grasping at straws.
>
>> The world community recognizes the gross disproportionate massive
>> brutality of the Israeli's retaliatory actions -- 13 Israeli deaths
>> compared to an estimated 1300 Palestinian deaths, massive
>> infrastructural damage in Gaza and Israel's denial of not only needed
>> materials to rebuild but also of essential supplies for humane living
>> conditions.
>
> But this doesn't answer the question of why Hamas continued to provoke
> anti-rocket responses where the main loss would be in the form of civilian
> property and civilian casualties, unless they were martrying their own people.
>
I don't doubt they think they have to fight Israel getting away with its
decades of comprehensive oppression and criminal violations of their
humanity any way they can. They apparently have nothing else to fight
back with.
The efficacy of that approach is self-defeating for both the radicals of
Hamas AND the Palestinian people. But it certainly DOES NOT justify
Israel's ongoing decades long gross violations against the humanity of a
whole people -and- Israel's systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
lands.
The article you ignored, Imposing Middle East Peace - "Israel is the
only apartheid regime in the Western world" -
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100125/siegman/single
outlines Israel's ongoing long term agenda of stealing as much
Palestinian land as they can get away with under the cover of false
"peace gestures."
And,
This article you also ignored, Secret Israeli database reveals full
extent of illegal settlements -
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html - also illustrates your
intransigent unwillingness to acknowledge Israel's real intentions.
Readers can clearly see for themselves what you, as an apologist for
Israel who despises the Palestinian people, continue to ignore and
refuse to directly address.
Ben Kaufman
They do have *something* to do with Israel because Arafat prevented the
building of schools, hospitals and overall better quality of life that those
billions of dollars could have provided to Palestinians. So a good share of
the suffering and instability was actually facilitated by Arafat and his ilk
who put themselves before the interests of the Palestinians. I think it is not
too hard to see how Palestinians, even if they were not an independent state,
enjoying a higher quality of life would put Arafat and the radicals out of
business.
Of course you will try to duck this and focus on "even if they were not an
independent state" out of the context it was written.
>
>
>>> or how there would have
>>>> been no Gaza mini war if Hamas stopped firing rockets when Israel said "cut it
>>>> out or we are coming in,"
>>>
>>> Practically impotent Qassam rockets [glorified bottle rockets] against
>>> Israel's vastly superior military machine is an ongoing ugly absurdity.
>>>
>>
>> You could say the same thing about the recebt crotch bomber, he didn't kill
>> anyone yet he succeeded in creatinging bountiful terror. Imagine that
>> happening to a few airliners a day.
>>
>
>
>
>That's a completely bogus comparison and is certainly NO justification
>for Israel's continuing gross, comprehensive human rights abuses,
>wholesale criminal oppression and documented war crimes against the
>whole Palestinian people - along with - its continuing systematic
>incremental ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land.
>
>You're grasping at straws.
>
Why is it a bogus comparison? Just one crotch bombing that failed to kill one
person and everyone goes into hysterics. On the other hand, you can't see the
terror aspect of thousands of missiles, even with poor guidance, coming into a
town?
>
>
>
>>
>>> The world community recognizes the gross disproportionate massive
>>> brutality of the Israeli's retaliatory actions -- 13 Israeli deaths
>>> compared to an estimated 1300 Palestinian deaths, massive
>>> infrastructural damage in Gaza and Israel's denial of not only needed
>>> materials to rebuild but also of essential supplies for humane living
>>> conditions.
>>
>> But this doesn't answer the question of why Hamas continued to provoke
>> anti-rocket responses where the main loss would be in the form of civilian
>> property and civilian casualties, unless they were martrying their own people.
>>
>
>
>I don't doubt they think they have to fight Israel getting away with its
>decades of comprehensive oppression and criminal violations of their
>humanity any way they can. They apparently have nothing else to fight
>back with.
>
>The efficacy of that approach is self-defeating for both the radicals of
>Hamas AND the Palestinian people. But it certainly DOES NOT justify
>Israel's ongoing decades long gross violations against the humanity of a
>whole people -and- Israel's systematic incremental theft of Palestinian
>lands.
You are only half right, it was self-defeating for the Palestinians but a
victory for Hamas. If you, John, only had a "sling shot" how many times would
you shoot it at a guy with a machine gun in your living room with your friends
and family present? Probably not at all, I am guessing. But if one needed to
make that guy look like a bully and one has already killed political rivals in
his way, then one might not be so bothered about sacrificing some people for
the "greater good."
>
>The article you ignored, Imposing Middle East Peace - "Israel is the
>only apartheid regime in the Western world" -
>http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100125/siegman/single
>outlines Israel's ongoing long term agenda of stealing as much
>Palestinian land as they can get away with under the cover of false
>"peace gestures."
>
I did not ignore the article, I don't flatly agree or disagree with it and I
was not compelled to devote considerable time to debating that author's opinion.
>And,
>
>This article you also ignored, Secret Israeli database reveals full
>extent of illegal settlements -
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html - also illustrates your
>intransigent unwillingness to acknowledge Israel's real intentions.
>
>Readers can clearly see for themselves what you, as an apologist for
>Israel who despises the Palestinian people, continue to ignore and
>refuse to directly address.
>
Here we go again, One more time I remind you of my position (cut and past from
above)
=====================================
>>>> John, your pathetic tactics of ducking questions and ad hominem are fooling no
>>>> one but yourself. Just the other day I reminded you that I have condemned
>>>> Israel for some of their actions against Palestinians so clearly when you state
>>>> in the above that "I have an unwillingness to acknowledge" shows that you have
>>>> switched from ad hominem to out right lying.
========================================
<SNIP old articles>
John Manning
Ben Kaufman is an intransigent apologist for Israel's continuing gross,
comprehensive human rights abuses, wholesale criminal oppression and
documented war crimes against the whole Palestinian people - along with
- its continuing systematic incremental ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land.
Predictably, Ben continues to *refuse to address* the facts described in
the following:
This outlines Israel's ongoing long term agenda of stealing as much
Palestinian land as they can get away with under the cover of false
"peace gestures."
Imposing Middle East Peace - "Israel is the only apartheid regime in the
Western world"
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100125/siegman/single
= =
This article from Israel's Haaretz Newspaper gives a documented example
of Israel's ILLEGAL systematic incremental theft of Palestinian land.
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlements -
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html
= =
This BBC report refers to Israel's documented war crimes in Gaza
UN backs Gaza war crimes report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8342915.stm
I'm finished with this discussion, Ben. Readers can decide for
themselves who is ignoring the realities of Israel's relationship with
the Palestinians.
Bert Hyman
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> I'm finished with this discussion,
Promise?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
John Manning
> In news:-tqdnReR1_FVotPW...@giganews.com John Manning
> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
>> I'm finished with this discussion,
>
> Promise?
>
Bert - are you also an apologist for Israel's continuing gross,
comprehensive human rights abuses, wholesale criminal oppression and
documented war crimes against the whole Palestinian people - along with
- its continuing systematic incremental ILLEGAL theft of Palestinian land?
I know it's near impossible for intransigent apologists like Ben, but
perhaps YOU have the courage to address the facts described in the
Bert Hyman
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> In news:-tqdnReR1_FVotPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm finished with this discussion,
>>
>> Promise?
>>
>
>
> Bert -
So, you're not finished with the discussion?
Why'd you lie?
John Manning
> In news:382dncCHgMbB2NPW...@giganews.com John Manning
> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>> In news:-tqdnReR1_FVotPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm finished with this discussion,
>>> Promise?
>>>
>>
>> Bert -
>
> So, you're not finished with the discussion?
>
> Why'd you lie?
>
I was referring to Ben, Mr Hyman. He has a history failing to honestly
address the facts presented that illustrate Israel's gross, wholesale
criminal abuses against the Palestinian people. It becomes pointless to
continue with him.
Again, Bert - are you also an apologist for Israel's continuing gross,
Bert Hyman
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> In news:382dncCHgMbB2NPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>
>>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>>> In news:-tqdnReR1_FVotPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>>>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm finished with this discussion,
>>>> Promise?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bert -
>>
>> So, you're not finished with the discussion?
>>
>> Why'd you lie?
>>
>
>
> I was referring to Ben, Mr Hyman.
So you think you're going to start it all over again with me?
Good luck.
John Manning
> In news:YK-dnfSNrpkL19PW...@giganews.com John Manning
> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>> In news:382dncCHgMbB2NPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>>>> In news:-tqdnReR1_FVotPW...@giganews.com John Manning
>>>>> <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm finished with this discussion,
>>>>> Promise?
>>>>>
>>>> Bert -
>>> So, you're not finished with the discussion?
>>>
>>> Why'd you lie?
>>>
>>
>> I was referring to Ben, Mr Hyman.
>
> So you think you're going to start it all over again with me?
>
> Good luck.
>
Clearly the damning information about Israel and the Middle East issue
itself is something you wish to avoid. In all likelihood, considering
the content of your postings, you're even more thick-headed than Mr Kaufman.
Ben Kaufman
Finished? I wouldn't call your repetitive pasting much of a discussion.
Ben
Darwin123
doll...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:50:18 -0200, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I had spent that day in the
> West Bank's largest city, Nablus. The city is bursting with energy, life and
> signs of prosperity, in a way I have not previously seen in many years of
> covering the region.
> .....
The there are now two Palestinian communities. The Gaza community
is accumulating the most religious people. It is also getting more
militant.. It is also The West Bank community is accumulating the more
secular people, and is getting more progressive. It is receiving less
abuse. The abuse is arguably being reduced, although there is a large
way to go. However, progress has raised expectations. The West Bank
community may be even less willing to take shit that the Gazans.
Yet, the two Palestinian communities are treated as one. The news
only reports "Palestinians." Palestinians have relatives in both
communities. The Israelis treat them as one community.
What you saw was more representative of the West Bank community.
However, the situation in Gaza is much more desperate. If the
Israeli's don't see progress in Gaza, they will be too scared to help
the West Bank.
The people in Gaza want to punish Israeli's more than they want a
new state. The people in the West Bank want their own state more than
they want to punish the Israeli's. The Israeli's don't want a new
Palestinian state and don't want to be punished. Expect a three way
conflict anytime soon.