The God of Gods?
EricLHHH
According to the gospel principles of Mormonism God was once a man like us and
all men are considered to be spirit children of God. So then God must have
been a man who was a spirit child of yet another god. Thus the theory goes
that Mormons believe they are only gods in training. This by default indicates
that the universe is populated with a multitude of gods and wanna be deities,
perhaps trillions of billions as one considers the age of the universe and the
multitude of worlds and spirit children a god can have. This may in fact hinge
upon how many wives a god has because one can only imagine that if a god is
capable of having billions of spirit children there must be quite alot of
spirit eggs and of course even more spirit sperm to fertilize them. Consider
the earth and all of the spirit children here. Thats quite alot of spiritual
uhmm, well you know.
Now this raises an interesting question and exposes the true nature of the
Mormon ultra polytheistic theology. If God (our God) himself was only a man
who became God who followed the same course of men today who was also once
raised to the exalted position of a god after all that he could do, who was it
that raised him to that position. There would have to be a belief in some
higher power than God or ethereal force which even upon ones own divine merit
is able to confer such an honor as godhood upon a man. Or if that is the
exclusive perogitive of God's parents to bestow upon their children deification
then one must be able to trace the lineage of the gods back to the grandaddy of
all gods. Now I will confidently ask any follower of junior if he knows the
name of Big Daddy and who made him God.
There is in truth only one being who ever tried to exalt himself above the
throne of God. We know his name and he is not a God at all! Look it up. He's
exposed in the real Bible.
The reason I offer this debate is in all seriousness to despel the absolute
myth of Mormonism and its self serving deification of man. This is both a
warning and an invitation to search out the one True God. He is looking for
you and his name is Jesus Christ. But know this! There is more to a name than
just phoenetics or the arrangement of a few letters. If you have exchanged the
truth for falsehood and chosen to believe a lie and no lie comes from him then
you don't know him at all. Check it out. The truth will set you free.
In Truth,
Eric
garyj0
> ... This is both a warning and an invitation to
> search out the one True God. He is looking for
> you and his name is Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know
thee *the*only*true*God,* and Jesus Christ, whom
thou hast sent.
Jesus said that "the only true God" was someone other than himself.
Sorry, Eric, but I believe Jesus on this one, rather than you.
> But know this! There is more to a name than
> just phoenetics or the arrangement of a few
> letters. If you have exchanged the truth for
> falsehood and chosen to believe a lie
TRUTH:
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know
thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom
thou hast sent.
FALSEHOOD:
Eric 1:1
... the one True God.... [H]is name is Jesus Christ.
> and no lie comes from him
I'm glad that you agree with me that no lie comes from Him. Since you
disagree with Him, then the lie must come from you.
> then you don't know him at all. Check it out.
> The truth will set you free.
I agree. Read your bible. It will get you started in the right
direction.
> In (the mistaken belief that I have the) Truth,
> Eric
Gary0
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
dar...@my-deja.com
Is Jesus God? Is He fully God or partially God? Who raised Him from the
dead? His BIG DADDY! Jesus said, "The son of man can do nothing of
himself, but what he sees the Father do". What did the Father do? What
did Jesus do? Why does the Bible call God the "MOST HIGH God" and the
"God of gods"? There can't be a MOST high God without lesser high gods,
and there can't be a "God of gods" without "gods" to be "God" of! There
is One God, and within the One God are an infinite number of divine
Persons. Thus, in one creation, the Father is one Person, and the Son is
another. In the next creation, the Son becomes the Father, and on and on
and over again; ad infinitum. This isn't God changing. This is God
remaining as He has always been; incarnating, resurrecting, begetting a
Son who incarnates, resurrect, He begetting a Son who incarnates and
resurrects and becomes a Father. This is the divine cycle that has always
been and will always be as long as creations come into being.
Darrick Evenson
In article <19991015013834...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
eric...@aol.com (EricLHHH) wrote:
If God (our God) himself was only a man
> who became God who followed the same course of men today who was also once
> raised to the exalted position of a god after all that he could do, who was it
> that raised him to that position. There would have to be a belief in some
> higher power than God or ethereal force which even upon ones own divine merit
> is able to confer such an honor as godhood upon a man. Or if that is the
> exclusive perogitive of God's parents to bestow upon their children deification
> then one must be able to trace the lineage of the gods back to the grandaddy of
> all gods. Now I will confidently ask any follower of junior if he knows the
> name of Big Daddy and who made him God.
>
> There is in truth only one being who ever tried to exalt himself above the
> throne of God. We know his name and he is not a God at all! Look it up. He's
> exposed in the real Bible.
>
> The reason I offer this debate is in all seriousness to despel the absolute
> myth of Mormonism and its self serving deification of man. This is both a
> warning and an invitation to search out the one True God. He is looking for
> you and his name is Jesus Christ. But know this! There is more to a name than
> just phoenetics or the arrangement of a few letters. If you have exchanged the
> truth for falsehood and chosen to believe a lie and no lie comes from him then
> you don't know him at all. Check it out. The truth will set you free.
>
> In Truth,
> Eric
EricLHHH
Darrick,
Here are the answers to your questions.
Q- Is Jesus God?
A - Yes he is.
Q- Is Jesus Fully God or Partially God? A- He is fully God and was fully man.
Amazing but true!
Q Who raied Him from the dead?
A- He raised himself by the authority that he had in himself through his
father.
John 10:17-19 Jesus said "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my
life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of
my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up
again. This command I received from my Father." "At these words the Jews were
again divided."
Q - Why does the Bible call God the "MOST HIGH GOD"?
A - Because All other gods (lower case) are dead. The bible says this because
they are in fact idols and he was referring to the gods of other nations in
comparison to himself. Don't confuse yourself with becoming a god with
becoming an idol. This is not a wise persuit.
Q- "Within one God are an infinite number of divine persons"
A- Did God say that or one of those lessor gods like that dead guy Joseph
Smith?
Q- "Thus within creation, the Father is one person, and the Son is another....
"
A- You can't thus something that has no validity! Nevetheless the answer is
yes but they are not separate persons. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are one
God! Even Jesus said there is only one God and he also said that he was the
Father. The Father is in him and he is in the Father.
Q- "In the next creation, the Father is one Person, and the Son is the next and
over again, ad infinim"
A- But God said he is the Alpha and Omega. So you agree that God is a speck of
sand, a mere man like you exalted and not the first and the last. Or do you
believe in all that new age garbage about everything being one big ball of God.
You condemn yourself by your words either way until you throw it away and
confess the truth.
Q- "This isn't God changing. This is God remaining as He has always
been....yada yada yada..the Father begetting a son and so on and so on."
A- What you believe is God degragding! Jesus is the Only Begotten son. Check
it out - Tr...@Bible.com.
eric
Ldzion
>>higher power than God or ethereal force which even upon ones own divine
>merit
>>is able to confer such an honor as godhood upon a man. Or if that is the
>>exclusive perogitive of God's parents to bestow upon their children
>deification
>>then one must be able to trace the lineage of the gods back to the grandaddy
>of
>>all gods. Now I will confidently ask any follower of junior if he knows the
>>name of Big Daddy and who made him God.
>>
B.H. Roberts gives out that there is something higher than God in his writing
which is quoted in the book God the Father ...Deseret Book back in the 80's I
forgot the complier's name. Gordon A? I forgot.
I wrote a woopty-do rebuttal that nobody cared about. I condsider the LDS
traditions in this regard both corrupt and absurd. I do not think for a moment
that the Prophet Joseph would let it fly a second.
james
,snip>
Boyd Peters
This was for me the way i started on my road of faith to believe , 1st of all, in
god.
I said, there either is no god, or their is a god.
I thought we either came here by chance, or it was designed that way.
Then i thought, but if god put us here, where did he come from?
In no way does the LDS faith say we will be greater than god. All we say is that we
have divine potential, and can receive all that he has for us, if we will follow
our saviour jesus christ. No doubt you have read the bible, in particular verses
such as sit in my throne, be heirs of god, joint heirs with christ...ye are gods,
ye are children of the most high, etc
For me, it is not hard to see that it may be a very big universe out there.
I love my sons, and i really want for them to inherit all i have.
I think our god, who will always be revered as holy throughout our eternity, and
will always remain he who we worship as our creator, might not necessarily be at
the top of the line out there.
It certainly doesn't lesser my opinion of him or my respect. On the contrary, i see
it actually strengthens my relationship that there is a loving creator who does
know me and who cares for me, and all of us, and wants me to return to be with him
again. I see the whole human body as very much of a family.
The idea of a god with no body, parts or passion is really anotehr form of athiesm
to me.
Please don't ever think we LDS want to rise above our god.
EricLHHH wrote:
> According to the gospel principles of Mormonism God was once a man like us and
> all men are considered to be spirit children of God. So then God must have
> been a man who was a spirit child of yet another god. Thus the theory goes
> that Mormons believe they are only gods in training. This by default indicates
> that the universe is populated with a multitude of gods and wanna be deities,
> perhaps trillions of billions as one considers the age of the universe and the
> multitude of worlds and spirit children a god can have. This may in fact hinge
> upon how many wives a god has because one can only imagine that if a god is
> capable of having billions of spirit children there must be quite alot of
> spirit eggs and of course even more spirit sperm to fertilize them. Consider
> the earth and all of the spirit children here. Thats quite alot of spiritual
> uhmm, well you know.
>
> Now this raises an interesting question and exposes the true nature of the
> Mormon ultra polytheistic theology. If God (our God) himself was only a man
> who became God who followed the same course of men today who was also once
> raised to the exalted position of a god after all that he could do, who was it
> that raised him to that position. There would have to be a belief in some
> higher power than God or ethereal force which even upon ones own divine merit
> is able to confer such an honor as godhood upon a man. Or if that is the
> exclusive perogitive of God's parents to bestow upon their children deification
> then one must be able to trace the lineage of the gods back to the grandaddy of
> all gods. Now I will confidently ask any follower of junior if he knows the
> name of Big Daddy and who made him God.
>
Boyd Peters
EricLHHH wrote:
> Gary,
>
> If you are a Mormon why didn't you respond to the question about your belief
> that renders God to be an infantessimal speck in the Mormon polytheistic
> universe?
This is silly. I also challenge you as to what your understanding of a "Mormon
polytheistic
universe" is.
Come on, if you have spent sop much time on us_surely_ you must knwo we revere god
as far greater than this.
By your logic, how can god love you when you are just "an infantessimal speck in
gods big universe"
> John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
> Word was God.
>
i love this verse. It's actually quite clear. Of course, when is the "beginning" By
the book of John satan was the father of lies form the beginning and the disciples
were with christ from the beginning. And then there is "god". What is god? how can
Moses "be a god to pharoah" how can "god" say, "let US go down there" in
Genesis.Unless god is a noun, a title?????
> John 14:8. "Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for
> us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among
> you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you
> say, `Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that
> the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is
> the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I
> am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence
> of the miracles themselves".
>
are you saying jesus is currently the living father then? Please tell me who is
where right now? this is silly
> As for the name of Jesus Christ. You could say that you are Jesus Christ
> proclaiming all of the fantastic revelations of former Mormon prophets or even
> like Joseph Smith's half plagiarized,
oh yeah here we go
> half made up Jesus,
again, now please, which bits were made up?
> Certainly you can see by what Jesus said that when he was here in the
> flesh he was a man but it was also God who was living in him.
>
and you bag us for an 1850 quote "god was once a man" too
> The Mormon doctrine that God was once a man is degrading to God and it is a
> mockery.
see above quote
> It is also the height of arrogance to think according to the
> "restored" gospel of the LDS that man can become a God like him.
Imagine that eh. darned bible, revelation again, going on about what we may inherit
with jesus, being the offspring of god, being the sons of god.
> Even the keystone of your religion the Book of Mormon does not say such as that.
>
does it need to? it was a historical record as much
> The real Jesus Christ is still looking for you to turn from error to the truth.
>
the real jesus.......oh brother.
So please tell me, if i follow this truth, how much happier will i be, how will my
life change, what will i do differently?
Boyd Peters
Bean, my experience is these people don't even read the bible, they just have an axe
to grind and a fistful of old tract written by professional snakes like walter
martin and his goonies.
to think they would even know how to find the early christian writings let alone
pronounce their names is a big step
Boyd Peters
EricLHHH wrote:
> I study the Word of God which is my standard not people like Origen.
> Incidently I also know about church history. If you would also study church
> history you might learn that Origen was denouced as a heretic along with many
> others who believed similarly to Joseph Smith .
>
> >The Truth is, if you study your Origen or other 1st-3rd century...
Dude, your credability is slipping every post i read. you have gone from a fair
post about different perceptions of the nature of god, to garbled tract nonsense.
You say J Smith was a plagiarist. C'mon. Do you even know what a polytheist
thinks? Worships? How they worship?
Get off the grass.
>>>>>>>I study the Word of God which is my standard not people like Origen.
This really scares me. you are missing out on how you actually got your "word of
god"
>>>>Incidently I also know about church history.
whose?
>>>>>>>>>If you would also study church history you might learn that Origen was
denouced as a heretic along with many
others who believed similarly to Joseph Smith .
and who by? so they were right as you don't like this Origen?
if they were right you follow them now?
where are they?
where there...many different beliefs then?
surely not. where could these have come from?
Boyd Peters
Bean wrote:
> On 17 Oct 1999 06:21:43 GMT, eric...@aol.com (EricLHHH) wrote:
>
> >I study the Word of God which is my standard not people like Origen.
> >Incidently I also know about church history. If you would also study church
> >history you might learn that Origen was denouced as a heretic along with many
> >others who believed similarly to Joseph Smith .
> >
> >>The Truth is, if you study your Origen or other 1st-3rd century...
> >
> >
> >
>
> You have just proven my point. Joseph Smith did not have the writings
> of Origen nor of the other so called "heretics" of the 1st and 2nd
> centuries. Therefore how did he receive these teachings? Revelation
> perhaps? Maybe the Church as a Whole had given up on true
> Christianity and Origen and the others were clinging to the Gospel as
> Christ had given to his Apostoles. Thank you for proving Joseph Smith
> a Prophet of God.
Boyd Peters
EricLHHH wrote:
> Darrick,
>
> Here are the answers to your questions.
>
>
> Q- Is Jesus Fully God or Partially God? A- He is fully God and was fully man.
> Amazing but true!
>
please remember you believe this when you next type "mormons believe god was once a
man"
> Q Who raied Him from the dead?
> A- He raised himself by the authority that he had in himself through his
> father.
>
given by WHOM?
> Q - Why does the Bible call God the "MOST HIGH GOD"?
> A - Because All other gods (lower case) are dead. The bible says this because
> they are in fact idols and he was referring to the gods of other nations in
> comparison to himself. Don't confuse yourself with becoming a god with
> becoming an idol. This is not a wise persuit.
>
are you saying then that god with a lower case g means an Idol in all cases?
> Q- "Within one God are an infinite number of divine persons"
> A- Did God say that or one of those lessor gods like that dead guy Joseph
> Smith?
>
look, i might not like Pius IX or constantine or Luther right, but to refer to
someone who is regarded with much thanks as "like that dead guy Joseph Smith?" is
not well received and only serves to say you are losing your plot. Please show some
respect, most of us here would, as in the above examples cited
Boyd Peters
I note that those throught the ages who have espoused similar views to us LDS now
have always been referred to as christian, even when branded heretics or
excommunicated etc. A point those who love the "is mormonism christian" ought to
recognise
Jim Larsen wrote:
> EricLHHH wrote:
> >
> > According to the gospel principles of Mormonism God was once a man like us and
> > all men are considered to be spirit children of God. So then God must have
> > been a man who was a spirit child of yet another god. Thus the theory goes
> > that Mormons believe they are only gods in training.
> ...
> There is enough evidence in the Bible that the destiny of the faithful
> is to be like God that many non-Mormons have, through the ages, have
> reached the same conclusion.
> >
> > Now this raises an interesting question and exposes the true nature of the
> > Mormon ultra polytheistic theology. If God (our God) himself was only a man
> > who became God who followed the same course of men today who was also once
> > raised to the exalted position of a god after all that he could do, who was it
> > that raised him to that position.
> ...
> Generalization is a wonderful tool that allows us to to understand many
> things that we have nevertheless not experienced. However,
> generalization is also dangerous when randomly applied to things we know
> nothing about. We know about Jesus Christ and His Father. His Father
> is God, the one and true God, and the only God we have anything to do
> with. Jesus said that he only did the things he saw his Father do. So,
> anything Jesus did, his Father also had done. Thus the conclusion (not
> doctrine, but a reasonable sounding conclusion) that The Father also
> lived on a physical world where He was a saviour. This is
> extrapolation, however, and we must remember that few details about it
> have been given to us, so our extrapolations are bound to have errors.
> Even more so, the ultimate extrapolation to infinate generations of gods
> is simply not justified, nor are we simpletons because we don't jump to
> conclusions about things we don't know much about. God said that that He
> is the highest intellegence in the universe. Certainly, no one will
> surpass Him, and probably, no one preceeds Him. The fact that redemption
> happened once with Jesus and that Jesus followed what he saw his Father
> do carries no implications beyond that particular relationship between a
> Father and His son.
> >
> > There is in truth only one being who ever tried to exalt himself above the
> > throne of God. We know his name and he is not a God at all! Look it up. He's
> > exposed in the real Bible.
>
> Such gross generalizations. How do you know there was only one? The
> Bible only points out Lucifer as someone with such asperations, not
> necessarily the only one. Now, concerning the doctrine you intend to
> expose, it is that man can reach the same plane as God and can do all
> that God does (through God's power) and that it is God's desire that we
> do this. This is all clearly laid it out in the Bible, and, as I said,
> it has been preached from many pulpits long before there were any
> Mormons.
> >
> > The reason I offer this debate is in all seriousness to despel the absolute
> > myth of Mormonism and its self serving deification of man.
> ...
>
> If you believed in the power of God you would believe that it is
> possible for God, through His grace, to extend all His power and kingdom
> to His children. If you believed in the goodness of God you would
> believe that it is His intention for you and me and all His children to
> inherit His kingdom and have all of His power at our fingertips, and
> thus we may become like God. We will not, of course, become God, but,
> having His power, we will be able to do what He does.
> - Jim Larsen
EricLHHH
>
>You have just proven my point. Joseph Smith did not have the writings
>of Origen nor of the other so called "heretics" of the 1st and 2nd
>centuries. Therefore how did he receive these teachings? Revelation
>perhaps? Maybe the Church as a Whole had given up on true
>Christianity and Origen and the others were clinging to the Gospel as
>Christ had given to his Apostoles. Thank you for proving Joseph Smith
>a Prophet of God.
Joseph Smith's teachings are in fact similar to Origen's in many respects.
First of all both believe in the preexistance of the soul. Mormons teach that
we were all spirit children before we came to earth. They both believe in the
apotacastisis of Origen which is in effect a belief in universal salvation.
Origen believed people could be redeemed even from Hell. (This is one of the
primary doctrines that got his teachings condemned). If you ever wondered,
what the primary goal of all that baptism of the dead and the preoccupation
with endless geneaologies in the Mormon church is all about. This same basic
belief fuels it. Origen also taught the gnostic concept of a purifying ascent
which continues even after death. This is also taught by Mormons if not by
Smith himself.
Where did Smith get his revelations? Who knows whether he stole them, made
them up or an actual angel appeared to him. But not all early Christian
writers were correct nor all angels sent from God and not all spirits are
either.
Actually Smith was far to adolescent to have the depth of knowledge of Origen
and he most likely never even heard of him before. It may seem amazing to you
that they did share many of the same beliefs proving in your mind the doctrines
of Smith to have some legitimate Christian heritage in the gospel. But if you
examine most occult systems, including Mormonism, Masonry, the various New age
whatever religions. They all have many similarities in their doctrines to
early Christian heretics who are too many to list. The Mormons have just done
a better job at concealing their occult heritage in more orthodox Christian
terminology.
Origen bores me! If you want to compare doctrine let's examine what the
Mormon's believe to what is actually written in the Bible. You pick!
eric
The one thing Smith did that Origen didn't is to start his own religion.
I believe there are however similar spiritual forces at work in both of their
heresies but they are not from God. Yes, Joseph Smith was a prophet but not a
true prophet. This is the world of spiritual deception both Origen and Smith
proceeded into. Its the same fruit from the same tree.
Origen bores me!
Origen also bores me!
EricLHHH
Daniel Wrote:
>
>Origin was never actually condmened as a heretic,
In 543 a synod at Constantinople pronouced him a heretic nearly 250 years after
his death.
The Fitfh Ecumenical Counsel of 553 condemned Origen's doctrines as erroneous.
EricLHHH
Boyd:
My sincere apologies for the apparent disrespect to Joseph. You are correct I
should be more respectful because that is not the way to share the gospel. But
I will not respect his doctrine through which I believe he has deceived
millions of people.
Boyd Said:
>are you saying then that god with a lower case g means an Idol in all cases?
>
It certainly does not mean THE MOST HIGH GOD or even one like him for there is
none like him now or ever.
Boyd said:
>please remember you believe this when you next type "mormons believe god was
>once a
>man"
>You bag us for a 1850 quote "god was once a man" too
I believe I said that Mormons believe he was a man like us. That means a man
that became exalted. Jesus was God incarnate from Birth born of the HOLY
SPIRIT through a virgin, not a man like us. There is a huge difference in
theology here. And yes I will bag you for an 1850 quote as well as the LDS
churches published 1999 doctrine!
Read your LDS official Home Page under "GOSPEL PRINCIPLES"
Note the words "BECAME GOD" and the the words "A MAN LIKE US" in the following
direct quotes from the LDS home page. .
"- This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is
the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God.
. . . He was once a man like us; . . …. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,
pp. 34546)".
- Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has
compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.
GOD was once a Man like us who "succeeded" in becoming God. It says like us.
It does not say a savior or perfect man like Jesus was from the beginning. .
If GOD had to succeed that means he had to attain to something. According to
that something in Mormon doctrine it is Exatlation which is becoming A God.
You will also find these specific words in reference to a good Mormon like
yourself or anyone else who also succeeds.
"- They will become gods." from the LDS home page GOSPEL PRINCIPLES
The made up part of Joseph Smith's Jesus is the part that he didn't copy and
quote directly from the Books of the Bible. That's the plagiarized part.
I had to mention the real Jesus Christ to you because apparently so many people
have laid claim to his name without knowing him. It's a real tradegy.
eric
EricLHHH
Boyd said:
"In no way does the LDS faith say we will be greater than god. All we say is
that we have divine potential, and can receive all that he has for us, if we
will follow our savior Jesus Christ. No doubt you have read the bible, in
particular verses such as sit on my throne, be heirs of god, joint heirs with
christ…ye are gods, ye are children of the most high, etc."
Eric’s reply:
Do not to take the "ye are gods" quote to mean so much as it concerns glory for
you or any man. For in the full context the verse reveals the Lord’s intent
behind this perfect rebuke to the rulers of the world who were only given
authority to rule at the Lord’s appointment and for a limited time. Thus they
were often credited with the status of being gods themselves due to their
divine appointments. Yet God is proving himself to be judge among them.
Psalms 82:5 "I said. ‘You are "gods"; You are all sons of the Most High,’ But
you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Jesus
himself made reference to this rebuke when the Jews accused him of blasphemy
for claiming himself to be God’s Son.
The LDS go beyond the belief in divine potential. It is much more than
potential to suggest that you will become a god, like God and rule your own
world having the power to create and procreate your own race of spirit children
of which you believe likewise God was once a man like us who also succeeded in
becoming exalted himself in some far distant past.
Boyd also said
"I think our God, who will always be revered as holy throughout our eternity,
and will always remain he who we worship as our creator, might not necessarily
be at the top of the line out there."
Eric’s Reply:
You suggest that God may not be at the top of the line. Then he also does not
speak the truth but is a liar if you should be misled to really believe this.
Here is what God says about whether or not he is the first or whether there was
or is a God who came before him or after him.
Psalm 82:1 "God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the
"gods":" This is in the same context as Psalm 82:5.
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to
another or my praise to idols."
Isaiah 43:10-12 "You are my witnesses, declares the LORD, "and my servant whom
I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the
LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6-7 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the
LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to
come-- yes, let him foretell what will come."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no
God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,"
Isaiah 45:11-12 "This is what the LORD says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its
Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give
me orders about the work of my hands? It is I who made the earth and created
mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their
starry hosts."
Isaiah 45:23-24 "By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every
tongue will swear. They will say of me, `In the LORD alone are righteousness
and strength.'" All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to
shame."
Eccl 8:17 "Then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes
on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover
its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend
it."
Boyd said
"The idea of a God with no body, parts or passions is really another form of
atheism to me."
Eric’s reply:
Is god a man that he should need a libido or a penis to feel passion? Is this
flesh and blood you are talking about or the God who created all flesh and
every living thing? Jesus said God is spirit and we should worship him in
Spirit and in Truth. Therefore God spoke of himself through his prophet Isaiah
55:8-11 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways
higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
But you expressed a spiritual connection to a god of body parts and passions
and perhaps even human like weakness. Glory to God you have come closer to the
truth than you know! For that is why God sent his only begotten son who became
God in the Flesh. So not only do we have a God who is awesome beyond all of
our understanding, we also have in him a personal savior in the person of Jesus
Christ. For Hebrews 21:9-10 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower
than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so
that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many
sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything
exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Now here is what the answer is and what is of FIRST IMPORTANCE:
1 Cor. 15:2-4 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I
preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I
passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the
third day according to the Scriptures,"
eric
Tom Egbert
empty tomb, after his resurrection that he has not ascended unto his father
which is in heaven, which, he says to Mary, is my God and your God, my
Father and your Father. Thus, the relationship of Jesus Christ to us is
shown. Jesus Christ is our brother, sent here to do the will of the Father.
And what is that? To teach the gospel of repentance and righteous living,
to live a perfect life without sin, and die on the cross in place of his
Father, who is a glorified and perfected, and resurrected Man who, by nature
of His condition, can never die again, spirit and perfected body being
inseparably connected. This is why Jesus was chosen to carry out the plan
of salvation. By virtue of his mortal mother, he could die, and by virtue
of his immortal father, he had the power to take his life up again.
You are living in an instant of eternity with limited information to draw
from, and find it absurd to even conceive that God the Father is a perfected
Man who once lived a mortal life? How in the world do you think that our
Father in Heaven could have one ounce of compassion for his children had he
not experienced pain, difficulties, and death. How could He know joy
without sorrow? ...and don't go back to your strange notion that Jesus
Christ is God the Father! Jesus called upon the Father in prayer numerous
times, not the least of which was the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemanie.
It Jesus was God the Father, why would he pray to himself?
You can make anything sound absurd, and make light of truth, but you have a
weak debate position. Your rhetoric reminds me of the statement of a man
who worked in the U.S. patent office in the early 1800s who said that all
the inventions to be made were already made. How truly short-sighted. And,
you talk about the "real Bible". What do you consider the "real Bible" to
be? Are you claiming that we use a Bible that is not the real one? If you
do, you are mistaken.
In Acts, it talks about us being the "offspring" of God. Various places in
the Bible infer a life before birth. We all know that Jesus Christ was WITH
the Father before his birth into mortality. If we are Jesus' brother and
sisters, as I pointed out earlier, then where were we before our mortal
birth? Yes, precisely in the same place where Christ was... with the
Father. Now, how do you think our spirits came into existence? Did Father
just take out His wand, and "poof!" create a spirit??? And what mind did he
give it? Did Father create your mind with all it's evilness or goodness?
Did your Father in Heaven intentionally make you more or less intelligent
than your other spiritual siblings? Did Father get up on the wrong side of
the bed one day, and create evil people? And what of Satan? Did he
self-exist? Just crawled out from under a rock in the universe one day with
all the other evil bugs that were under there with him??? NO! Satan is as
much your brother as mine as Jesus Christ's! And a rebellious one at that.
And did Father create his evilness? No. According to revelation to the
prophet Joseph Smith, who you do not accept, intelligence, or the "light of
truth" cannot be created or made. In other words, your mind is eternal and
self existent. Your personality is uniquely your own... God did not create
it. But one thing He and your spiritual Mother did do, was co-create the
spirit body which was "quickened" by your mind or intelligence.
You think the this doctrine is false and foolishness, and I would submit
that you are looking no farther than the end of your nose.
Tom Egbert
EricLHHH <eric...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991015013834...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
>
> According to the gospel principles of Mormonism God was once a man like us
and
> all men are considered to be spirit children of God. So then God must
have
> been a man who was a spirit child of yet another god. Thus the theory
goes
> that Mormons believe they are only gods in training. This by default
indicates
> that the universe is populated with a multitude of gods and wanna be
deities,
> perhaps trillions of billions as one considers the age of the universe and
the
> multitude of worlds and spirit children a god can have. This may in fact
hinge
> upon how many wives a god has because one can only imagine that if a god
is
> capable of having billions of spirit children there must be quite alot of
> spirit eggs and of course even more spirit sperm to fertilize them.
Consider
> the earth and all of the spirit children here. Thats quite alot of
spiritual
> uhmm, well you know.
>
> Now this raises an interesting question and exposes the true nature of the
> Mormon ultra polytheistic theology. If God (our God) himself was only a
man
> who became God who followed the same course of men today who was also once
> raised to the exalted position of a god after all that he could do, who
was it
> that raised him to that position. There would have to be a belief in some
> higher power than God or ethereal force which even upon ones own divine
merit
> is able to confer such an honor as godhood upon a man. Or if that is the
> exclusive perogitive of God's parents to bestow upon their children
deification
> then one must be able to trace the lineage of the gods back to the
grandaddy of
> all gods. Now I will confidently ask any follower of junior if he knows
the
> name of Big Daddy and who made him God.
>
> There is in truth only one being who ever tried to exalt himself above the
> throne of God. We know his name and he is not a God at all! Look it up.
He's
> exposed in the real Bible.
>
> The reason I offer this debate is in all seriousness to despel the
absolute
Boyd Peters
EricLHHH wrote:
> Actually Smith was far to adolescent to have the depth of knowledge of Origen
>
oh my goodness you are a dope
Daniel Vieira
: Daniel Wrote:
: >
: >Origin was never actually condmened as a heretic,
: In 543 a synod at Constantinople pronouced him a heretic nearly 250
: years after his death.
Interestingly, this synod was convoked by St. John Crysostom, who was
himself attacked at a heretic for rejecting the teachings of Origen!
But see below.
: The Fitfh Ecumenical Counsel of 553 condemned Origen's doctrines as
: erroneous.
Here's something on Origen and the Council that might be of interest. Got
it from the Catholic Supersite.
--begin quote--
<!-- X-URL: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm -->
<BASE HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm">
<title>Catholic Encyclopedia: ORIGEN AND ORIGENISM</title>
Were Origen and Origenism anathematized? Many learned writers believe so; an
equal number deny that they were condemned; most modern authorities are either
undecided or reply with reservations. Relying on the most recent studies on the
question it may be held that:
o It is certain that the fifth general council was convoked exclusively to
deal with the affair of the Three Chapters (q. v.), and that neither Origen nor
Origenism were the cause of it.
o It is certain that the council opened on 5 May, 553, in spite of the
protestations of Pope Vigilius, who though at Constantinople refused to attend
it, and that in the eight conciliary sessions (from 5 May to 2 June), the Acts
of which we possess, only the question of the Three Chapters is treated.
o Finally it is certain that only the Acts concerning the affair of the
Three Chapters were submitted to the pope for his approval, which was
given on 8 December, 553, and 23 February, 554.
o It is a fact that Popes Vigilius, Pelagius I (556-61), Pelagius II
(579-90), Gregory the Great (590-604), in treating of the fifth council
deal only with the Three Chapters, make no mention of Origenism, and speak
as if they did not know of its condemnation.
o It must be admitted that before the opening of the council, which had
been delayed by the resistance of the pope, the bishops already assembled
at Constantinople had to consider, by order of the emperor, a form of
Origenism that had practically nothing in common with Origen, but which
was held, we know, by one of the Origenist parties in Palestine. The
arguments in corroboration of this hypothesis may be found in Dickamp (op.
cit., 66-141).
o The bishops certainly subscribed to the fifteen anathemas proposed by the
emperor (ibid., 90-96); and admitted Origenist, Theodore of Scythopolis, was
forced to retract (ibid., 125-129); but there is no proof that the approbation
of the pope, who was at that time protesting against the convocation of the
council, was asked.
o It is easy to understand how this extra-conciliary sentence was mistaken
at a later period for a decree of the actual ecumenical council.
--end quote--
While the Synod convoked by Crysostom may have labeled him "heretic" it
would in actuallity bear less weight than one might think. It would take
the decision of an Ecumencial Council or a Bull by the Pope to trully label
someone heretic, and as we can see above such a thing most likely never
really took place.
Dan
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Vieira | dvi...@primenet.com | dsv2...@huey.csun.edu |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Faire et en faisant, se faire et n'etre rien que ce qu'il s'est fait."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
"The darkening of the world, the flight of the gods, the destruction
of the earth, the transformation of men into a mass, the hatred and
suspicion of everything free and creative, have assumed such
proportions throughout the earth that such childish categories as
pessimism and optimism have long since become absurd."
-- Martin Heidegger
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan's Web Site | http://www.primenet.com/~dvieira/index.html |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
EricLHHH
You have really gone out on a tangent and destroyed anyone's interest in the
original debate related to this posting. I'm glad you know your Orige(i)n.
EricLHHH
This is in reply to Tom Egbert. Note: AOL rots! It kicked me out again when
I stepped away so I lost your note in the middle of my first reply. I am rather
new to this. How do you recover a posting that you have already read once you
leave the sight?
The Gospel of Egbert said:
[Christ was sent] To teach the gospel of repentance and righteous living, to
live a perfect life without sin, and die on the cross in place of his Father,
who is a glorified and perfected, and resurrected man.....
Eric's reply:
First of all Jesus did not come to die for the Father but for your sin and
mine. He died in place of us all. Now where in the Bible does it say that the
Father was also a savior who was slain. Even your own LDS homepage says that
God was a man LIKE US who succeeded in becoming an exalted man. If he was
perfect why did he die. Was he crucified for another? How many Gods have to
die and be resurrected in order for men to get it right??? Your theology is
even screwed up by Mormon standards.
Egbert says:
..Don't go back to your strange notion that Jesus Christ is God the Father!
You seem to have no understanding of the spiritual significance that Jesus
Christ is who he says he is. He is God the Father who came as the Son in the
Flesh. Why is it being strange to believe that Jesus Christ is Emmanuel!! God
with us. Yes he was fully man and fully God. He could be tempted, he could be
killed, yet he was also God because he was the only begotten Son of God and
therefore he was God in the Flesh.
Jesus also said in the Bible In John 14:8-9 "Philip said, "Lord, show us the
Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me,
Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen
me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?"
In your literal pick and choose add a little here take a little there scripture
world Jesus Christ is a liar or you either have to cut this part out.
Here is another scripture that you might think supports you but considering
your polytheism it also rebukes you: :
1 Cor 15:27-28 "For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says
that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not
include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this,
then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him,
so that God may be all in all."
The one who came from above has returned to him who sent him and he is
returning again and those who he came to redeem will be as he is when he comes
as he is the first born among many brothers. So Jesus will return to his
rightful position and so will we who have believed in him. We will not be God
himself or even his equal but his children through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ
is God with us for eternity who poured himself out for us. You don't get it.
Its not about you and your arrogant hopes for deity. Its about Jesus Christ
and his ultimate sacrifice so that you and I as worthless sinners might be
found righteous in the sight of God.
Egbert ask the questions:
Now, how do you think sprits came into existance? Did Father just take out his
magic wand, and "poof! creat a spirit??? And what mind did he give it? Did
Father create your mind with all of its evilness or goodness?...
God's reply:
Isaiah 57-15-16 "For this is what the high and lofty One says-- he who lives
forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with
him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and
to revive the heart of the contrite. I will not accuse forever, nor will I
always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-- the
breath of man that I have created.
Isaiah 45:11-12 "This is what the LORD says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its
Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give
me orders about the work of my hands? It is I who made the earth and created
mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their
starry hosts."
Isaiah 29-23 "When they see among them their children, the work of my hands,
they will keep my name holy; they will acknowledge the holiness of the Holy One
of Jacob, and will stand in awe of the God of Israel."
Isaiah 43:10-12 "You are my witnesses, declares the LORD, "and my servant whom
I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the
LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Thank you Lord!
Egbert then boldy confessed:
And what of Satan? Did he self exist? Satan is as much your borther as mine
[and] as Jesus Christ]...And Did Father create his evilness. According to the
revelation of prophet Joseph Smith...intelligence, or the lgiht of truth cannot
be created or made.
Eric's reply:
Are you saying Satain is the intelligence and light of truth as well as your
brother? Its interesting you say that because Lucifer's name means morning star
or son of the light of dawn.
God's Reply to Egbert:
Isaiah 14:12-14 "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the
dawn! [Lucifer KJV]You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low
the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my
throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of
the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
Ezekiel 28:13-16 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone
adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire,
turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day
you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the
fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were
filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount
of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."
Matt 12:36-37 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of
judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will
be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Case closed!!!
LDS and Egbert doctrine rebuked!!!
Daniel Vieira
: You have really gone out on a tangent and destroyed anyone's interest in the
: original debate related to this posting. I'm glad you know your Orige(i)n.
Hey! You guys were talking about Origen. I just got into what interested
me. :^>
By the way, you say Origen bores you. Apparently he bored others as well.
The feller wrote so much that even Jerome, who wrote quite a bit, quipped
"Can anyone be capable of reading everything Origen has written?" He was
defintely heterodox in many areas, but he is very important as the
Church's first systematic theologian. Others later were able to take his
methods of analysis and use them to create more refined theologies. I
don't think the Church would have anywhere the level of theological
sophistication without him.
Dan -- who kind of likes Origen, heterodoxies and all
---
Tom Egbert
several instances. Also, what I have attempted to share with you earlier is
not my doctrine. It is in harmony with LDS teachings.
EricLHHH <eric...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991022033554...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Jesus did precisely as you said. He came to rescue us from the effects of
sin, and enable us to return to the presence of the Father. Jesus did not
die for the Father. He died in the Father's stead. Since the Father is a
glorified and perfected being, he cannot die. His spirit and glorified body
are inseparably connected, but Jesus was a willing son who volunteered in
premortal councils to come to earth in full-body representation of the
Father. Jesus was endowed with a divine investiture of authority. He was
given command over this earth and all the inhabitants. For all intents and
purposes, he is to us Lord of Lords, and beside Him there is no other God
who can save us. We must submit to his grace, or suffer damnation. When
Stephen was stoned in Jerusalem, he saw both the Father and the Son standing
apart from one another as in the following scripture:
Acts 7
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven,
and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing
on the right hand of God.
The New Testament has many references that proves to most reasonable minds
that Jesus Christ is an individual separate from His Father. You chose not
to address the point I made about this scripture:
(John 20:16)
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him,
Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Eric, unfortunately, you are lacking information. You only have the 'User's
Guide'. We are not only in possesion of the 'User's Guide', but also the
'Installation Guide' as well as other technical documentation. And better
yet, we have on-line technical support! (You can already tell what my
background is in... ) You cannot get a full picture of how the whole plan
and the purposes for such are laid out from one loosely connected collection
of books and letters which have not only been translated numerous times, but
are not laid out in cronological order. That is why you find our doctrines
so incredulous. It is because you do not have access to all the
information.
Speaking of mistranslation: Try this one on:
(Gen. 1:26)
26 ś And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth.
You have a problem with plural Gods? What happened here. God says "Let
us". What is that? I will tell you. The correct translation should have
been, "And the Gods said, Let us make man...". You also have a problem with
the children of God becoming gods? What in the world did Christ say this
for then?
Ps. 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.
John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture
cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,
Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may
know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Verse 38 is interpreted incorrectly if you take it literally to mean that
Jesus is saying that He is both the Father and the Son in the literal sense.
What He means here is that His will is swallowed up in the will of the
Father. In other words, Jesus' will is the same as the Father making them
"one" in mind and purpose... but NOT person. Otherwise, why would Christ
say the following in the Garden of Gethsemanie?
(John 17:21)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent
me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be
one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that
the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast
loved me.
> Egbert says:
>
> ..Don't go back to your strange notion that Jesus Christ is God the
Father!
>
> You seem to have no understanding of the spiritual significance that Jesus
> Christ is who he says he is. He is God the Father who came as the Son in
the
> Flesh. Why is it being strange to believe that Jesus Christ is Emmanuel!!
God
> with us. Yes he was fully man and fully God. He could be tempted, he
could be
> killed, yet he was also God because he was the only begotten Son of God
and
> therefore he was God in the Flesh.
I have already pointed out above... Jesus was not his Father! He was one
with the Father in will, mind and purpose. Yet, Jesus was still the
Father's spiritual and mortal son... not the same person... was Stephen
seeing double????
>
> Jesus also said in the Bible In John 14:8-9 "Philip said, "Lord, show us
the
> Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know
me,
> Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has
seen
> me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?"
>
> In your literal pick and choose add a little here take a little there
scripture
> world Jesus Christ is a liar or you either have to cut this part out.
You ignorantly take the scripture literally. Jesus is saying that there is
no need to reveal the Father, for He, himself is a full representation of
the Father. There is no further revelation that would be gained. Jesus
came in the express image of His Father, and it is possible that Jesus's
physical looks were genetically the same as his Father. Don't forget what
Jesus said to Mary about ascending to his father, remember??? If Jesus was
the Father, why such a stupid statement? There can be no doctrine so stupid
as the doctrine of Jesus and the Father being literally the same person!
>
> Here is another scripture that you might think supports you but
considering
> your polytheism it also rebukes you: :
>
> 1 Cor 15:27-28 "For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it
says
> that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not
> include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done
this,
> then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under
him,
> so that God may be all in all."
I think you should consult a prophet of God to obtain the correct
interpretation of this scripture. The way it has been translated leaves
only room for argument about it's true meaning. I will leave it at that.
>
> The one who came from above has returned to him who sent him and he is
> returning again and those who he came to redeem will be as he is when he
comes
> as he is the first born among many brothers. So Jesus will return to his
> rightful position and so will we who have believed in him.
And where is that? On the right hand of the Father. And what does that
mean if we take it literal? That Jesus follows the Father around on the
right day after day? Oh, but, I forgot... Jesus is the same person as the
Father, so how does this work? And if he is returning to him that sent him,
wait, how can that be? He can't do that, if he is the Father, then he sent
himself, and he is returning to himself? Wow! This sounds all mixed up!
>We will not be God himself or even his equal but his children through Jesus
Christ. Jesus Christ
> is God with us for eternity who poured himself out for us. You don't get
it.
No, you don't get it. That is why you have such a hard time making the
foregoing sound like it makes any sense at all. When truth is all jacked
out of whack, it is hard to make nonsense make sense.
> Its not about you and your arrogant hopes for deity. Its about Jesus
Christ
> and his ultimate sacrifice so that you and I as worthless sinners might be
> found righteous in the sight of God.
And what is the purpose for you in God's vast universe? To be His court
jester? To what end were you created? For God to glorify himself for his
express pleasure? To keep you forever ignorant while He reigns superior
above you in glory and intelligence for eternity. Maybe He just created you
in hopes that you could keep Him company someday, if you make it back. I
submit to you that your Father's purpose is bring to pass the immortality
and Eternal life of man. To have Eternal life is to become an heir with the
Father... to inherit all that he has, even kingdoms, principalities, powers,
and all heights and depths of glory. This means that nothing is withheld
from you. Your advancement and progress will be unbounded. Your ability to
learn all knowledge is within your grasp. And knowledge is power.
Knowledge is freedom. God has all power and all freedom. He wants nothing
less for his children. It is His desire to make them all equal to Him...
those who are willing. This is beyond salvation, it is called exaltation.
And every married couple sealed by proper authority who inherits this state
of exaltation can, in time, become like unto God, and bring to pass the
immortality and eternal lives of their own spiritual posterity, worlds
without end.
This is true. We believe that it was Jesus Christ or Jehovah who spoke to
Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah. Or in other words, Jesus Christ was the God of
both Old and New Testaments. We believe that Jesus Christ was set apart by
the Father from the very creation of the earth, and all God the Father's
dealings with His children has been through Jesus Christ. We believe that
under direction of the Father, Jesus Christ created the earth. And Jesus or
Jehovah, speaking to an idle worshipping people, impresses upon their minds,
that there are no other Gods with which they should have anything to do.
There are plenty of scriptures elsewhere in the Old Testament that refute a
literal interpretation of this scripture. May I offer one: Proverbs 8:22
The Lord (Jehovah), who is speaking, speaks about his own Lord (the Father),
even the Lord who went before.
Thank you Isaiah!
>
> Thank you Lord!
>
> Egbert then boldy confessed:
>
> And what of Satan? Did he self exist? Satan is as much your borther as
mine
> [and] as Jesus Christ]...And Did Father create his evilness. According to
the
> revelation of prophet Joseph Smith...intelligence, or the lgiht of truth
cannot
> be created or made.
>
> Eric's reply:
>
> Are you saying Satain is the intelligence and light of truth as well as
your
> brother? Its interesting you say that because Lucifer's name means morning
star
> or son of the light of dawn.
>
I am saying that intelligence has been referred to as the "light of truth".
Because Satan has the light of truth, it has damned him, for he has come out
in open rebellion against it. Here is a portion of the reference from a
modern-day revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith:
(D&C 93:26)
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore
record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all
truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is
glorified in truth and knoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of
truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to
act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man;
because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and
they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element,
inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of
God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that
temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having
redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,
innocent before God.
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through
disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of
their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.
In whose mind? Eric, relax. Regardless of what I believe the plan of
salvation to be, or what you think it is does not affect our hearts. In my
heart, I worship the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am profoundly grateful for his
atonement. I serve him daily as required, not out of obligation but out of
love. I do not condemn you for your beliefs. It is just that neither of us
believe that the other sees the whole picture... and that is OK. The Lord
knows us both, and loves us both. The important thing is that we both love
and serve Him to the best of our abilities, and help others to do the same.
Regards,
Tom
>
>
>
>
>
EricLHHH
>
>You have a lot to reply to. I believe that you have misunderstood me in
>several instances. Also, what I have attempted to share with you earlier is
>not my doctrine. It is in harmony with LDS teachings.
Tom,
Trust me on this. I have not misunderstood you and neither has God
misunderstood you. For you have said in your heart as well as confessed with
your mouth "I will be like the most high" you have said "I will be exalted
above the stars of God". You have tried to wield the sharp two edged sword of
the Word of God and in trying to use it against our God’s solemn Truth you have
pierced yourself. You have done violence to the Truth by denying the
sovereignty of God who made your very breath, the life that you now have. God
said he will not give his glory to another and in your arrogance you have only
persuaded yourself you will likewise be a god as he is God. You have quoted
Psalm 82:6 as proof you are to be a God Like the Most High, someday to be equal
in power and in knowledge with him . "You are "gods"; you are all sons of the
Most High."
Here is this verse in all of its Glory so you can think again about what the
God of heaven is saying to the rulers of this world who considered themselves
to be gods and to you and to all those whom he is reckoning with in this
rebuke:
Psalm 82: 1-8 "God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the
"gods": "…….. "They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in
darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. "I said, `You are
"gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler." Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all
the nations are your inheritance."
The Apostle Peter warned the church about prophets like Joseph Smith who you
swear by. 2 Peter 2:1-3 "But there were also false prophets among the people,
just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce
destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing
swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will
bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will
exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been
hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."
You have said that God is talking about the god who created him in Prov. 8:22
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;"
Talking about taking scripture too literally and out of context!. This is an
allegory about wisdom and SHE (wisdom) is talking about herself if you care to
take the time to begin with the 1st verse and read forward. Is your god now a
goddess or is your god wisdom and knowledge itself? Thanks for the scripture
verse because this also refutes pseudo prophet Smith’s revelation that
knowledge and wisdom weren’t created but have always been, even before god.
You say I ignorantly take scriptures literally. If I am so foolish then how is
that I am able to believe it all to the exclusion of everything the LDS
prophets have added to twist the nature of God and support the plurality of
your gods. You can only accept part of it otherwise it proves you a liar. I
will address your point. You think that I am ignorant that Jesus Christ is the
Son of God and as such when he is considered in that singular way he is also
separate from God the Father. I also see him glorified at the right hand of
God the Father. I see him as my Lord and Savior and God with the Father. Not
the same but separate, not separate but the same. The Father and the Son also
with the Holy Spirit have from all eternity been, and are the ONE God of all,
who created the heavens and the earth by which I swear to you are one God.
This is the difference between a Trinitarian view and Tri-theistic view which
leads to your blasphemous unlimited polytheism. Whereas you can only take one
side of the Word of God to support your claim that Jesus Christ and also the
Holy Spirit are entirely separate Gods apart from God. I accept both sides
easily because the three are one with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit,
being one God.
This may sound whacked out and mixed up to you only if you believe in a god
with body parts who was once a mortal man and a Holy Spirit that can only be in
one place at the same time because of his limited dimensions. The spirit that
taught you these things you did not receive from God. You say I only have a
users guide of what you believe so I don’t understand it all. How many
different Bibles does a good LDS need beyond the four I know of plus the users
guide to boot? You also say that your teachings are in harmony with LDS
teachings. Here is what the LDS Gospel Principles say: "The Holy Ghost is a
member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the
form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a
time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time." If you can
harmonize that teaching with what the Bible says pull out your installation
schematics and show me how your god can give part of another god away "to [all]
those who ask" at the same time when he that is to be given away is so limited
in his dimensions:
Luke 11:13. "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to
those who ask him!" Does what God give in the promised gift of the Holy Spirit
also come with strings attached so it is taken away at the next instant and
given to another because he cannot be everywhere at once. Is the Holy Spirit
only ethereal in substance to you or personal and indwelling with the believer?
Be careful not to contradict your instruction manual. Is he also a separate
god to you?
The Lord laughs and scoffs at your so called harmonious teachings which have
brought such division and strife among men. The word harmony and LDS teachings
themselves are contradictions in terms. You cannot even help but fall upon
your own duplicitous sword.
I reject your teaching of a pre-mortal council of the gods as if heaven where
like the courts of Zeus. Who has ever trusted in such a myth in the Bible and
where in God’s Word is it written that such an event occurred. Anyone who
follows sound doctrine will reject this myth as well as all the others which
have been added by the LDS to that which was taught by the apostles and by
Jesus Christ himself.
If you want to keep count there are far more verses in the Genesis account that
indicate one God in contrast to God saying "our" once which Joseph Smith and
the like have recited countless times before as proof of plural Gods. This is
simply not a theme which occurs in the Bible. Furthermore, you do not know if
God was referring to anyone other than himself and his son who was with him
even in the beginning or simply the host of heaven which includes the seven
fold Spirit of God and the angels. As far as Joseph Smith’s re-translation of
the Bible, if that is where you are getting your so called "correct
translation" that it should be written "And the Gods" I would not trust
anything Joseph Smith translated be it mythical gold Nephite plates or the
Bible. The man was a demagogue and a deceitful liar and envious of God himself
and the authority of his sovereign Word. He was ripe and he has received what
his deeds deserve.
Finally, you ask what is my purpose in this vast universe. It is that which by
the grace of God I have become joined with through Jesus Christ. Samuel
7:22-24 "How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and
there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears. And who is like
your people Israel--the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a
people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and
awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people,
whom you redeemed from Egypt? You have established your people Israel as your
very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God." Why is it asking
to much to serve God for all eternity, to worship him as God for all ages
forever and enjoy that which he would bestow upon those who love him forever,
even eternal life. If any exaltation or any glory that I have received even
that I should obtain a single crown it is at the feet of Jesus Christ that I
lay it for to him it is due and to him alone I owe my redemption. Even if I
should be a fool or court jester I had rather be a fool for Christ than a god
in my own eyes.
As for this synagogue of Satan, this church of the pretended Jews to which you
hold fast even they will acknowledge someday that God has loved us because we
have kept his word and have not denied his name. Under what authority other
than their own has the LDS instituted this marriage vow which leads to
exaltation which is seen as even far greater worth than salvation. It is no
wonder this is the central theme of your temple rather than the salvation that
would have bought you had you believed in its truth and everlasting worth.
How do you explain what Jesus said about marriage at the resurrection Matt
22:28-30 "Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven,
since all of them were married to her?" Jesus replied, "You are in error
because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection
people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the
angels in heaven."
Do you think that all I want to do is make trouble for you. In your mind I
stand opposed to God only because I reject Joseph Smith and all of his new
teachings. Can a man be baptized into the name of Joseph Smith? Can Joseph
Smith resurrect a single man from the dead or can through his teaching even an
endowment for the dead be of any worth? If you have rejected the truth and
exchanged it for a lie perhaps this is how you see it as being the only truth.
Is Christ your chief cornerstone or is Joseph Smith who by all authority
according to the LDS is the sole person responsible for the resurrection of the
Church and for restoring the gospel in the latter days. It is to you as if the
election of God to the disciples was a wasted breath and all of their struggles
and persecutions amounted to nothing being finally overcome by the gates of
hell despite the Lord’s promises.
You are sadly mistaken. For that same transcendent church, the Israel of God,
which Joseph Smith has ridiculed and has plundered every treasure from and has
appropriated every promise to unto himself, will someday be shown favor by God
and will retake the trampled courts and every liar will be cast out and every
thief banished and not one shall be found remaining among those who have sought
to strip her naked and make her barren of which there have been many even more
notorious than Joseph Smith. And among those who fought against her not one
will remain standing and those who do remain will be so few that even a child
could write them down.
In Truth,
Eric
HBlack
>
<snip>
> This may sound whacked out and mixed up to you only if you believe in a god
> with body parts who was once a mortal man and a Holy Spirit that can only be in
> one place at the same time because of his limited dimensions. The spirit that
> taught you these things you did not receive from God. You say I only have a
> users guide of what you believe so I don’t understand it all. How many
> different Bibles does a good LDS need beyond the four I know of plus the users
> guide to boot? You also say that your teachings are in harmony with LDS
> teachings. Here is what the LDS Gospel Principles say: "The Holy Ghost is a
> member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the
> form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a
> time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time." If you can
> harmonize that teaching with what the Bible says pull out your installation
> schematics and show me how your god can give part of another god away "to [all]
> those who ask" at the same time when he that is to be given away is so limited
> in his dimensions:
This is indeed a decisive point that overthrows Mormon Godhead theory.
If the Holy Ghost spreads his influence in exactly the same way as other
members of the Godhead, i.e., through the omnipresent but impersonal
"Holy Spirit" that pervades the universe like a supremely subtle gas,
then why doesn't he also have a body of flesh and bones, like the other
Mormon gods?
I once wrote the Mormon Prophet about this (through official Priesthood
channels of course) and got the canned reply, "It hasn't been revealed."
The fact is that if the Father had a body of flesh and yet could dwell
inside Jesus, there is NO reason whatever for the Holy Ghost to
remain an unembodied Spirit. Yet the Father does dwell in Jesus,
and therefore has no need to exist in a body of mere flesh.:
"John 14.10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that *dwelleth* in me, he doeth the works."
The Greek word here is exactly the one used in all other Greek
literature for describing passengers and crew 'staying' 'inside,' or
'aboard' a ship, and for describing people 'residing' in a village,
or 'living' inside a house. It also describes the word of God
that dwells inside the souls of Christians:
"John 5:38... ye have not his word *abiding* in you: for
whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
Perhaps Mormons should wonder why it is that their "newly
revealed" information simply muddies the waters of theology.
That which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
The Hare
>
<snip>
> Eric
Boyd Peters
(about the nature of god)
EricLHHH wrote:
> You say I ignorantly take scriptures literally.
> You think that I am ignorant that Jesus Christ is
> Not the same but separate, not separate but the same.
> This may sound whacked out and mixed up
you said it Eric. As for us Mormons, we just go by the logic of what jesus christ
said
> The Lord laughs and scoffs at your so called harmonious teachings which have
> brought such division and strife among men.
these would be the ones that persecuted us?
> The word harmony and LDS teachings
> themselves are contradictions in terms. You cannot even help but fall upon
> your own duplicitous sword.
>
>
where did you cut and paste that gem eric?
> If you want to keep count there are far more verses in the Genesis account that
> indicate one God in contrast to God saying "our" once which Joseph Smith and
> the like have recited countless times before as proof of plural Gods. This is
> simply not a theme which occurs in the Bible.
except for jesus' baptism, crucifiction, gethsemane, resurection, ascension etc
> Furthermore, you do not know if
> God was referring to anyone other than himself and his son who was with him
> even in the beginning
ask yourself why was the son needed, and why was he needed b4 adam fell? it might
hurt but you can do it.
> Bible. The man was a demagogue and a deceitful liar and envious of God himself
> and the authority of his sovereign Word. He was ripe and he has received what
> his deeds deserve.
>
got any nice words about stepehn too? or paul, peter, john? what about Joseph
SMith's brother. you are a tolerant one aren't you.
> Why is it asking to much to serve God for all eternity, to worship him as God for
> all ages
> forever and enjoy that which he would bestow upon those who love him forever,
> even eternal life.
that being your definition of eternal life, and a very narrow version too.
surely god would have some great vision for his children ?
eric you write too much, your brain must be hurting by now
Tom Egbert
> > This may sound whacked out and mixed up to you only if you believe in a
god
> > with body parts who was once a mortal man and a Holy Spirit that can
only be in
> > one place at the same time because of his limited dimensions.
What I say will never square with your limited resource material. I do
believe it to be fact that the Godhead consists of three seperate and
distinct individuals, of one mind and one heart, united in purpose. Each
member of the Godhead serves different roles. I also believe that there is
no such thing as immaterial matter, and that all spirit is matter, and my
only be discerned by purer eyes. I do not believe in a God who is
everywhere but nowhere... who is so large He can fill the universe, yet so
small he can dwell in your heart; however, I do believe in a God whose
influence and power fills the universe. We were created in IMAGE OF GOD.
Moses spoke with God, as the scripture says, FACE TO FACE. We believe that
Jehovah, even Jesus Christ, was that God who spoke to Moses as a spirit
entity, since, as yet, he had not taken upon himself flesh and bone. Yet,
to Moses, he spoke to Him face to face. Jesus's spirit was in the likeness
of a man After Jesus's resurrection, he appeared to the apostles who were
gathered in the upper room after the doors were locked; however, the locked
doors did not keep Him out. This is what the scripture says happened:
(Luke 24:36)
36 ś And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and
saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a
spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in
your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for
a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus ascended into heaven with this same body. I am quite sure he did not
jettison it after he god out of sight of the apostles. Yet with the
glorified body which he has, the walls of the upper room were not a barrier.
Yes, we believe that God the Father also has a glorified and perfected body
of flesh and bone, and that He lives in a place, not as a spiritual gas. We
also believe that the Holy Ghost has a spirit body which has not as yet
taken upon himself flesh and bone, but in due time, after Satan has been
cast into outer darkness, he will receive a body also. Satan and the Holy
Ghost compete for the souls of men in the spiritual realm. On one hand,
Satan's influence tempts us to do evil, while on the other hand, the Holy
Ghost's influence entices us to choose the right. We choose which influence
to follow. We can list to obey either prompting.
>> The spirit that taught you these things you did not receive from God.
Your opinion.
>> You say I only have a users guide of what you believe so I don't
understand it all. How many
> > different Bibles does a good LDS need beyond the four I know of plus the
users
> > guide to boot?
If we call the "User's Guide" the Bible, then the other three standard works
of the LDS church must be your missing manuals. A technical support staff
consisting of prophets and apostles, and on-line tech support from God,
Himself.
> > You also say that your teachings are in harmony with LDS teachings
> > Here is what the LDS Gospel Principles say: "The Holy Ghost is a
> > member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that
has the
> > form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place
at a
> > time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time." If you can
> > harmonize that teaching with what the Bible says pull out your
installation
> > schematics and show me how your god can give part of another god away
"to [all]
> > those who ask" at the same time when he that is to be given away is so
limited
> > in his dimensions:
There is nothing out of harmony with what I said and LDS church doctrine.
Dimensions, or no dimensions, the miracle of God taking care of so many of h
is children at the same time is truly a mystery that will be answered to our
satisfaction in due time, but let me draw an analogy. The sun is physcally
one body, but it's rays can be felt by billions of people at the same time.
In the spiritual realm, communications, I am sure, can be very much the
same. I also believe that God has many ministering angels at His command
which may also aid in the fulfillment of prayerful requests.
> This is indeed a decisive point that overthrows Mormon Godhead theory.
> If the Holy Ghost spreads his influence in exactly the same way as other
> members of the Godhead, i.e., through the omnipresent but impersonal
> "Holy Spirit" that pervades the universe like a supremely subtle gas,
> then why doesn't he also have a body of flesh and bones, like the other
> Mormon gods?
I have answered this question. Now if you think our doctrine of the Godhead
sounds rediculous to you, think about how absurd your doctrine of three in
one is. Tell me, why would the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost even
be necessary? Yours is a strange doctrine indeed! Why didn't God just take
care of everything with the name of Jesus? Why Jesus talking all the time
about being about his father's business, and praying to himself, and acting
like a ventriloquist at his baptism, and deceiving Stephen into seeing
double, and promising the second comforter? Why all the talk about talking
up his body again? After all, what good was it? Why didn't he just leave
it in the tomb?
> I once wrote the Mormon Prophet about this (through official
Priesthood
> channels of course) and got the canned reply, "It hasn't been revealed."
> The fact is that if the Father had a body of flesh and yet could dwell
> inside Jesus, there is NO reason whatever for the Holy Ghost to
> remain an unembodied Spirit. Yet the Father does dwell in Jesus,
> and therefore has no need to exist in a body of mere flesh.:
> "John 14.10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
> Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
> but the Father that *dwelleth* in me, he doeth the works."
This is where you stumble and fall on your nose, and the sooner you put this
nonsense away, the sooner you will arrive at the truth of many other things
about Jesus Christ. One time a lady in a sunday school class I was in
commented on the following excerpt from the Book of Mormon:
(Morm. 1:18)
18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the
land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures
in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the
land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.
She said that the inhabitants were cursed so that they could not hang on to
any of their treasures because they were so slippery.
She read the passage so literally that she missed the true meaning.
I submit to you that Jesus Christ desires that he would be in you, and you
in him. He desires that your will be swallowed up in His will, such that
you become of one mind and one heart in Christ. He wants you to have your
eyes single to his glory... to have His image in your countenance. NOT to
possess your body, as if to live inside of you. The Father directed Jesus
Christ in all things from the beginning. Jesus's will is the same as the
Father's will making them one in purpose, NOT PERSON.
> The Greek word here is exactly the one used in all other Greek
> literature for describing passengers and crew 'staying' 'inside,' or
> 'aboard' a ship, and for describing people 'residing' in a village,
> or 'living' inside a house. It also describes the word of God
> that dwells inside the souls of Christians:
> "John 5:38... ye have not his word *abiding* in you: for
> whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
> Perhaps Mormons should wonder why it is that their "newly
> revealed" information simply muddies the waters of theology.
> That which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
It is true that our doctrine sets yours on its ear. Why else has the world
been in such darkness until the light of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ
was established on earth again in the eary 1800s. Yes, our doctrine
certainly wages war with yours.
Mr. Tom
Shannon Martin
mormon. it does not state anywhere in the book of Mormon the God ws once
a man. It states that God created us in the appearance of God. It never
states that God was a spirit child that was raised into adulthood. He is
the ultimate being, we were his spirit children. Be careful what you
generalize and misquote. It may be beyond some peoples ability to
believe such things, but that is what faith is all about. Everything
around us show that there is a higher being.
Shannon Martin
Christ the savior, God the eternal fathr, and the Holy Spirit. Each is
found in the other. Jesus Christ is the oly Savior, in him is God he
Eternal father, and they provide spirtual guidance through he Holy
Ghost......
HBlack
> > EricLHHH wrote:
>
> > > This may sound whacked out and mixed up to you only if you believe in a
> god
> > > with body parts who was once a mortal man and a Holy Spirit that can
> only be in
> > > one place at the same time because of his limited dimensions.
>
> What I say will never square with your limited resource material.
This is not my concern.
My point is that your claims are not self consistent, whereas
self-consistency is a minimum requirement for not only truth
but comprehension. See below.
I disagree.
> Now if you think our doctrine of the Godhead
> sounds rediculous to you,
My argument has nothing to do with how "ridiculous"
the Mormon god sounds to me. Rather I argue that
the Mormon theory is inconsistent with itself (e.g.,
1843 D&C 130:22 contradicts 1833 D&C 88:6ff, etc.),
inconsistent with the Biblical Christian teaching, and also
inconsistent with subsequent theories developed by
Christian theologians.
> think about how absurd your doctrine of three in
> one is.
Yet it is an historical fact that Joseph Smith subscribed to
this in his Book of Mormon, and other early revelations:
"[1829 -- The Testimony of Book of Mormon Three Witnesses]...
honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost,
which is one God. Amen".
> Tell me, why would the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost even
> be necessary?
I thought Mormons accepted their existence as a given.
They are the facts any Godhead theory must describe.
Mormonism does this inconsistently.
> Yours is a strange doctrine indeed! Why didn't God just take
> care of everything with the name of Jesus? Why Jesus talking all the time
> about being about his father's business, and praying to himself,
Christian theology divides the three persons (Father, Son
and Holy Spirit), but not their coextensive infinite being (God).
The Three are One in substance, but not personal identity.
> and acting like a ventriloquist at his baptism,
This is rather your own silly caricature.
> and deceiving Stephen into seeing double,
His use of the Greek idiom translated "Standing on
the Right hand" implies no such thing, any more than it implies
God has a giant hand on which Jesus stood.
It simply means that Jesus was exercising the majestic
right and power of God.
> and promising the second comforter?
Yes. This is the Holy Spirit, who Jesus promised would
remain in Christians FOREVER (John 14:16f).
Yet if the Holy Spirit has to remain an unembodied
being to dwell inside Christians (as Mormonism teaches)
it would require Him to remain bodiless FOREVER, and
therefore He could never become fully exalted, (as
Mormonism also teaches.) Therein lies a self-defeating
contradiction for Mormonism.
"[1843 D&C 130] 22... the Holy Ghost has not a
body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
> Why all the talk about talking
> up his body again? After all, what good was it? Why didn't he just leave
> it in the tomb?
You should already know the answer to this.
I suspect even Mormons do not deny the reality of the
resurrection.
Jesus' resurrection and ascension guarantees the glorious
bodily resurrection of all Christians.
> > I once wrote the Mormon Prophet about this (through official
> Priesthood
> > channels of course) and got the canned reply, "It hasn't been revealed."
> > The fact is that if the Father had a body of flesh and yet could dwell
> > inside Jesus, there is NO reason whatever for the Holy Ghost to
> > remain an unembodied Spirit. Yet the Father does dwell in Jesus,
> > and therefore has no need to exist in a body of mere flesh.:
> > "John 14.10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
> > Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
> > but the Father that *dwelleth* in me, he doeth the works."
>
> This is where you stumble and fall on your nose,
Now follows an irrelevant excursion "into the countryside,"
which I will bracket.
[[[
> and the sooner you put this
> nonsense away, the sooner you will arrive at the truth of many other things
> about Jesus Christ. One time a lady in a sunday school class I was in
> commented on the following excerpt from the Book of Mormon:
>
> (Morm. 1:18)
> 18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the
> land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures
> in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the
> land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.
>
> She said that the inhabitants were cursed so that they could not hang on to
> any of their treasures because they were so slippery.
>
> She read the passage so literally that she missed the true meaning.
]]]
Thanks for the lecture on taking scriptures too literally.
Perhaps you should apply this to Stephen's remarks,
and the earlier cases, in which you said Jesus acted
"the ventriloquist."
Your moral cuts both ways.
> I submit to you that Jesus Christ desires that he would be in you, and you
> in him. He desires that your will be swallowed up in His will, such that
> you become of one mind and one heart in Christ. He wants you to have your
> eyes single to his glory... to have His image in your countenance. NOT to
> possess your body, as if to live inside of you.
You completely missed my point.
God is never confined to anyone's body.
Yet Mormon scripture explicitly claims that the
Holy Ghost cannot have a body BECAUSE he would
then be unable to "dwell in us."
"[1843 D&C 130] 22 ... the Holy Ghost has not
a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
WERE IT NOT SO, the Holy Ghost COULD NOT
DWELL IN US." (Emphasis is mine.)
This is not my theory of God, but Joseph Smith's.
It is not merely incomprehensible, it is absurd within
the very context of Mormonism earlier revelations:
"[1833 D&C 88] 6 HE THAT ASCENDED up
on high, as also he descended below all things, in
that he comprehended all things, that he might be IN
all and through ALL THINGS, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ.
As also HE IS IN THE SUN, and the light of the
sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also HE IS IN THE MOON, and is the light
of the moon, and the power thereof by which it
was made; 9 As also the light of the stars, and the
power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof,
even the earth upon which you stand."
This Mormon scripture (D&C 88:6ff) quite clearly
denies what D&C 130:22 asserts. In D&C 88,
Jesus is not confined from dwelling in anything at all,
much less the bodies of Christians, yet D&C 130
asserts that this state of affairs can never be the case.
> The Father directed Jesus
> Christ in all things from the beginning. Jesus's will is the same as the
> Father's will making them one in purpose, NOT PERSON.
So?
Christians have never taught Jesus and the Father are the
same "person." The entire New Testament would deny such
nonsense.
> > The Greek word here is exactly the one used in all other Greek
> > literature for describing passengers and crew 'staying' 'inside,' or
> > 'aboard' a ship, and for describing people 'residing' in a village,
> > or 'living' inside a house. It also describes the word of God
> > that dwells inside the souls of Christians:
> > "John 5:38... ye have not his word *abiding* in you: for
> > whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
> > Perhaps Mormons should wonder why it is that their "newly
> > revealed" information simply muddies the waters of theology.
> > That which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
>
> It is true that our doctrine sets yours on its ear. Why else has the world
> been in such darkness until the light of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ
> was established on earth again in the eary 1800s. Yes, our doctrine
> certainly wages war with yours.
And Joseph Smith's doctrine falls on its own sword.
Thanks.
The Hare
> Mr. Tom
Lycida
misreading and dunderheadedness (from both the pro- and the anti- sides) that
many folks seem to have.
I'm going to stick with one point--although there are many possibles--just to
keep things clear in my own, limited, mind.
Tom said:
>> I submit to you that Jesus Christ desires that he would be in you, and you
>> in him. He desires that your will be swallowed up in His will, such that
>> you become of one mind and one heart in Christ. He wants you to have your
>> eyes single to his glory... to have His image in your countenance. NOT to
>> possess your body, as if to live inside of you.
To which Harry responded:
> You completely missed my point.
> God is never confined to anyone's body.
> Yet Mormon scripture explicitly claims that the
>Holy Ghost cannot have a body BECAUSE he would
>then be unable to "dwell in us."
First statement:
I'm not sure whether he missed your point, so I can't comment. However, it is
clear that you missed his.
Second statement:
Of course God is not confined to anyone's body. God Himself is never present
within anyone in an visceral way. In fact, he communicates to us only through
the Holy Ghost, and, on rare occasions, through other messengers (JC, angels,
whatever). His INFLUENCE is felt everywhere, because of his power, of course,
but primarily because of the intercession of those intermediaries (HG,
particularly). We receive his Word and his Will, but he is not Himself
physically present within any of us. The relationship between God's works and
representing God is, of course, spoken of at great length by Christ (see, for
example, John 10:25-38, and John 14 [6-11, particularly]) but never are we told
that God Himself as a personage can dwell within us.
Which in no way denigrates God's abilities. If you have references which
contradict what I've just said, please cite them and I'll get back to you.
Third statement:
As I've just stated, God does not dwell directly within us. Nor does he
personally whisper in our ears (well, not mine--I wouldn't want to speak for
everyone). Ditto Christ. Have you ever heard of two separate
saints/apostles/prophets/whatever getting direct revelation at precisely the
same time from God/Christ in person?
If you have, please cite references, and I'll respond.
Otherwise, you must admit (unless you are willfully misunderstanding) that we
have no evidence that the PERSONS (read "personal presence") of God and Christ
have ever been visibly manifest in more than one place at a time. Rather, we
see His (God's, since Christ is simply standing on his right hand--I'll grant
you that one) power, His glory, we do His works, we witness others who do His
works, and we have the gift of the Holy Ghost at all times reminding us of
God's power and glory and prompting us to do God's will.
God cannot and does not dwell personally within us (to summarize). Or so is my
belief--I'm willing to read references stating otherwise. Therefore, it is
possible for Him to be incarnate. The Holy Ghost, however, can and does dwell
within everyone as a conduit to God and His will. Therefore, it is impossible
for the HG to be incarnate.
If I have in any way not made this clear, I'm sure you'll find the loophole.
However, what I'm really interested in is this--what do you believe, Harry?
What is the Holy Ghost to you? How about you show a little courage and put
your beliefs before us for criticism, rather than hiding behind empty criticism
of our beliefs?
If you've already done this, I apologize. Refer me to it and I'll read it
carefully before needlessly and callously accusing you of moral cowardice.
Love,
LF
Joe Steve Swick III
You've been gone so long, I thought you might have wandered off into some
traffic and been hit by a car.
___HBlack___
My point is that your claims are not self consistent, whereas
self-consistency is a minimum requirement for not only truth but
comprehension.
-----
Ah! So THAT must be why the Mystery of the Holy Trinity is inherently
incomprehensible... it is self-contradictory and inconsistent.
Joe Swick
Heretic
Neos Efialtis
One must realize that the Current Christian belief that the GOD is 3
personalities in one body or substance just cannot stand on any plane.
Or, if it can be, Jesus suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder. This is
a serious condition, which would require our immediate disbelief and our
removal from the Christian belief.
Or.
We could believe that the Bible tells the truth, and the ancients who wrote
the histories were correct, and the symbolism is correct, and thereare
really 3 distinct, separate individuals that make up one God. The same as
there can be many companies in one corporation.
Consider the following:
Satan tries to confound Adam and Eve with a lie. Satan always uses 10% lie
and 90% truth, or he would not be able to deceive anyone. Adam and Eve only
know of "one" God? Why, if so, would Satan use Gods in the plural? How
could that deceive anyone, especially if they only believed in one God?
Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
This is from a prayer of a prophet
Exodus 15:11
Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee,
glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?
Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD [is] greater than all gods: for in the thing
wherein they dealt proudly [he was] above them.
This is a commandment:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
This is self explanatory:
Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a
mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Joshua 22:22
The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall
know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD,
(save us not this day,)
2 Chronicles 2:5
And the house which I build [is] great: for great [is] our God above all
gods.
Psalms 82:1
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth
among the gods.
Psalms 82:6
I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psalms 86:8
Among the gods [there is] none like unto thee, O Lord; neither [are there
any works] like unto thy works.
Psalms 95:3
For the LORD [is] a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalms 96:4
For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be feared
above all gods.
Psalms 97:9
For thou, LORD, [art] high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above
all gods.
Psalms 135:5
For I know that the LORD [is] great, and [that] our Lord [is] above all
gods.
Psalms 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psalms 138:1
[A Psalm] of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods
will I sing praise unto thee.
Daniel 11:36
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and
magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against
the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for
that that is determined shall be done.
These are people worried about the Gods that put the plague on Egypt? Which
God(s) put the plague on Egypt? Would that be the God(s) of Moses?
1 Samuel 4:8
Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods?
these [are] the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the
wilderness.
Christ Himself Believed in Gods:
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture
cannot be broken;
Now then, lets not banter over one word "Gods", lets define "God".
Jehovah = The self existent one; the eternal; the unchangeable one
Elohim = Supreme or absolute exaltations
Emmanuel = God with us
Jesus = Jehovah is salvation; Latin is "Iesus", Greek is "I'isous",
Aramaic is "Yeshu'a" (original form), Hebrew is "Yehoshu'a" (Joshua), The
root is "Ysh' " (to save)
Compare Jehovah to:
Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good
thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have
not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Revelation 1:8,10,17-18
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which
is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as
of a trumpet,
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,
Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Compare Jesus to:
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he
shall save his people from their sins.
Compare the following also:
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
WITH
John 8:58-59
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I
am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out
of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Isaiah 43:15
I [am] the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
WITH
Mark 1:24
Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy
One of God.
Luke 4:34
Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, [thou] Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy
One of God.
Psalms 89:18
For the LORD [is] our defense; and the Holy One of Israel [is] our king.
Jeremiah 10:10
But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting
king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be
able to abide his indignation.
Isaiah 43:15
I [am] the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
WITH
Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he
is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are]
called, and chosen, and faithful.
Genesis 1:1
IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:4
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were
created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do
grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the
works of God who maketh all.
WITH
John 1:1-3
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was
made.
Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Psalms 118:22
The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the
corner.
WITH
Acts 4:11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become
the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner [stone];
1 Chronicles 16:33
Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD,
because he cometh to judge the earth.
Psalms 9:7-9
But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for
judgment.
And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to
the people in uprightness.
The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of
trouble.
Psalms 50:6
And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God [is] judge himself.
Selah.
Psalms 96:13
Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall
judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
WITH
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels;
and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he
which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Romans 14:10-11
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy
brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one
may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done,
whether [it be] good or bad.
2 Timothy 4:1
I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall
judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Jude 1:14-15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among
them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of
all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Isaiah 43:11
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who
hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time?
[have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and
a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.
Psalms 140:7
O GOD the Lord, the strength of my salvation, thou hast covered my head in
the day of battle.
Micha 7:7
Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my
salvation: my God will hear me.
Habakkuk 3:18
Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
WITH
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he
shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is
Christ the Lord.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under
heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for
to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a
Saviour, Jesus:
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the
Saviour of the world.
Psalms 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall
receive me. Selah.
Isaiah 41:13-14
For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not;
I will help thee.
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith
the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43:14-15
Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I
have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the
Chaldeans, whose cry [is] in the ships.
I [am] the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall
be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall
know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of
Jacob.
Isaiah 54:5
For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy
Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be
called.
Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Hosea 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from
death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction:
repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
WITH
Romans 3:24-25
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ
Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;
1 Corinthians 1:30-31
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and
righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the
Lord.
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of his grace;
Colossians 1:13-14
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us]
into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of
sins:
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for
us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption
of sons.
1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as]
silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from
your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and
without spot:
Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to
open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by
thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
2 Samuel 22:47
The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and exalted be the God of the
rock of my salvation.
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our
God.
[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a
God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.
Psalms 18:2,46
The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my
strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation,
[and] my high tower.
The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and let the God of my salvation
be exalted.
Psalms 94:22
But the LORD is my defence; and my God [is] the rock of my refuge.
WITH
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
MOREOVER, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our
fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual
Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Who arose with who's dead body?
Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.
WITH
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy
city, and appeared unto many.
Who's name is above all other names? (hint: Jehovah -- reason Jews removed
letters and refuse to say the name)
Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is
above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and
[things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the
glory of God the Father.
Lets take a closer look at "God":
In Genesis 32 and Genesis 48 and Judges 13 LORD and God are compared or refe
rred to as an Angel.
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to
face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus 24:10-11
And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a
paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his]
clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also
they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11,20
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his
friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son
of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and
live.
Judges 13:22-23
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen
God.
But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would
not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither
would he have shewed us all these [things], nor would as at this time have
told us [such things] as these.
Isaiah 6:1,5
IN the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne,
high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean
lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes
have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Here is the contradiction, or is it?
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the
bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Try this as a key (many people have seen Jesus, but few have seen God):
Matthew 5:8
Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son
is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the
Son will reveal [him].
Acts 7:54-56
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed
on him with [their] teeth.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and
saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on
the right hand of God.
Are God and Jesus One?
John 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.
What did he mean?
John 17:11,20-22
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to
thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given
me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me
through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent
me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one,
even as we are one:
God and Jesus are separate:
Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and,
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am
well pleased.
Matthew 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a
voice out of the c loud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am
well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 13:32
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are
in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Christ does not know THAT day, but God does.
John 1:1-2
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
John 5:19-20
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The
Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what
things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself
doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 12:28-29
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I
have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered:
others said, An angel spake to him.
Whole chapter of John 17.
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not
God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and
the Son.
Is Christ a God?
Compare these scriptures:
Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do
grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the
works of God who maketh all.
WITH
Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Psalms 102:27
But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Malachi 3:6
For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not
consumed.
WITH
Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good
thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have
not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Prophicy of Jesus' birth:
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they
shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Other Facts to support this:
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son,
but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he]
to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in
heaven and in earth.
John 1:1
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself
equal with God.
John 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall
take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
I had with thee before the world was.
Acts 2:32-33
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the
Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now
see and hear.
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us:
and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
O.K., we have established that Jesus is Jehovah, that Jehovah is a God, that
Jesus has a Father, who is a God also, therefore there are Gods in the
plural. Not to mention the scriptures where Christ and the Prophets in the
O.T. describe us as Gods.
Now lets tie the Book Of Mormon into the beliefs of Jesus Christ, and Christ
's relationship with God:
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the
fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of
God.
Matthew 4:3,6
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God,
command that these stones be made bread.
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is
written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their]
hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a
stone.
Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus,
thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth
thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God.
Matthew 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I
adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ,
the Son of God.
Matthew 27:40,43,54
And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three
days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he
said, I am the Son of God.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the
earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,
Truly this was the Son of God.
Mark 1:1
THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 3:11
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried,
saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mark 5:7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus,
[thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me
not.
Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried
out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 1:32,35
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord
God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 3:38
Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the
son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.
Luke 4:3
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone
that it be made bread.
Luke 4:9,41
And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,
and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ
the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they
knew that he was Christ.
Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud
voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high?
I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luke 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the
Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 22:70
Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye
say that I am.
John 1:34,49
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou
art the King of Israel.
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living
God.
John 9:35
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said
unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,
Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 11:4,27
When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for
the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son
of God, which should come into the world.
John 19:7
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die,
because he made himself the Son of God.
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 3:13,26
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath
glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the
presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you,
in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on
the right hand of God.
Acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he
answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of
God.
Romans 1:4,9
And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of
holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,
that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his
Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned
sin in the flesh:
1 Corinthians 1:9
God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son
Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even]
by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith
of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 4:4,6
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the law,
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your
hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son
of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness
of Christ:
Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the
heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they
crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of
days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest
continually.
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who
hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done
despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 4:9,14-15
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his
only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the
Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him,
and he in God.
1 John 5:5,9-13,20
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the
Son of God?
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is
the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that
believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record
that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this
life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath
not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of
God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on
the name of the Son of God.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding,
that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in
his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the
Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Revelation 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the
Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are]
like fine brass;
1 Nephi 10:17
And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father,
concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he
spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on
the Son of God--and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come--I,
Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these
things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all
those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that
he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
1 Nephi 11:6-7,21,24,32
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice,
saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the
earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou
believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the
things which thou hast desired.
And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou
hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou
shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness;
and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that it is the Son of
God.
And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the
Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and
I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw
many fall down at his feet and worship him.
And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I
looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the
Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear
record.
2 Nephi 25:16,19
And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by
other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from
generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ,
the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind--and
when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the
Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward
any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it
must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.
For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six
hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to
the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name
shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 Nephi 31:16
And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure
to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot
be saved.
Jacob 4:5
Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and
also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law
of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified
unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the
wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son
Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
Mosiah 3:8
And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven
and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother
shall be called Mary.
Mosiah 4:2
And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the
dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have
mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness
of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come
down among the children of men.
Mosiah 15:2-3
And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and
having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and
the Son--
The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son,
because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-
Alma 5:50
Yea, thus saith the Spirit: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, for the
kingdom of heaven is soon at hand; yea, the Son of God cometh in his glory,
in his might, majesty, power, and dominion. Yea, my beloved brethren, I say
unto you, that the Spirit saith: Behold the glory of the King of all the
earth; and also the King of heaven shall very soon shine forth among all the
children of men.
Alma 6:8
And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was
established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the
truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the
spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their
sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written.
Amen.
Alma 7:9-10,13
But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this
people, saying--Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his
paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and
the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth.
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our
forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be
overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a
son, yea, even the Son of God.
Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth
according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people,
that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his
deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
Alma 9:26
And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his
glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace,
equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to
hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers.
Alma 11:32,35,44
And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?
Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he
said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but
he shall not save his people--as though he had authority to command God.
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and
free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even
there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing
shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and
shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God
the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged
according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Alma 12:33
But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of
redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent and harden not your
hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;
Alma 13:16
Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people
might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it
being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a
remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.
Alma 16:19-20
Holding forth things which must shortly come; yea, holding forth the coming
of the Son of God, his sufferings and death, and also the resurrection of
the dead.
And many of the people did inquire concerning the place where the Son of God
should come; and they were taught that he would appear unto them after his
resurrection; and this the people did hear with great joy and gladness.
Alma 21:7
Now Aaron said unto him: Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to
redeem mankind from their sins?
Alma 24:13
Behold, I say unto you, Nay, let us retain our swords that they be not
stained with the blood of our brethren; for perhaps, if we should stain our
swords again they can no more be washed bright through the blood of the Son
of our great God, which shall be shed for the atonement of our sins.
Alma 33:14,17-18,22
Now behold, my brethren, I would ask if ye have read the scriptures? If ye
have, how can ye disbelieve on the Son of God?
And now, my brethren, ye see that a second prophet of old has testified of
the Son of God, and because the people would not understand his words they
stoned him to death.
But behold, this is not all; these are not the only ones who have spoken
concerning the Son of God.
If so, wo shall come upon you; but if not so, then cast about your eyes and
begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people,
and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; and that he shall
rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that
all men shall stand before him, to be judged at the last and judgment day,
according to their works.
Alma 34:2,7,14
My brethren, I think that it is impossible that ye should be ignorant of the
things which have been spoken concerning the coming of Christ, who is taught
by us to be the Son of God; yea, I know that these things were taught unto
you bountifully before your dissension from among us.
My brother has called upon the words of Zenos, that redemption cometh
through the Son of God, and also upon the words of Zenock; and also he has
appealed unto Moses, to prove that these things are true.
And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to
that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the
Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.
Alma 36:17-18
And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was
harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have
heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus
Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O
Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness,
and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.
Helaman 3:28
Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who
will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.
Helaman 5:12
And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our
Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation;
that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in
the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon
you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery
and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure
foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
Helaman 8:14-15
Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he
lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted
up who should come.
And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as
should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might
live, even unto that life which is eternal.
Helaman 14:12
And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the
beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent
that ye might believe on his name.
3 Nephi 5:13,26
Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called
of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have
everlasting life.
And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of
God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth
unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord
liveth so shall it be. Amen.
3 Nephi 9:15
Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the
earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the
beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the
Father glorified his name.
3 Nephi 20:31
And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and
shall pray unto the Father in my name
Mormon 5:14
And behold, they shall go unto the unbelieving of the Jews; and for this
intent shall they go--that they may be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of the living God; that the Father may bring about, through his most
Beloved, his great and eternal purpose, in restoring the Jews, or all the
house of Israel, to the land of their inheritance, which the Lord their God
hath given them, unto the fulfilling of his covenant;
Mormon 7:5
Know ye that ye must come to the knowledge of your fathers, and repent of
all your sins and iniquities, and believe in Jesus Christ, that he is the
Son of God, and that he was slain by the Jews, and by the power of the
Father he hath risen again, whereby he hath gained the victory over the
grave; and also in him is the sting of death swallowed up.
Mormon 9:22,29
For behold, thus said Jesus Christ, the Son of God, unto his disciples who
should tarry, yea, and also to all his disciples, in the hearing of the
multitude: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
creature;
See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the
sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness,
and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye
do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.
Ether 4:7
And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even
as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then
will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to
the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of
God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them
are.
Ether 12:11
Wherefore, by faith was the law of Moses given. But in the gift of his Son
hath God prepared a more excellent way; and it is by faith that it hath been
fulfilled.
Moroni 7:48
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of
heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all
who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons
of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him
as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is
pure. Amen.
One of the biggest controversies about the Mormon Faith is the idea that man
can become a God. Let us look at our most perfect example:
Matthew 8:20
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air
[have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.
Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive
sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and
go unto thine house.
Matthew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I
say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son
of man be come.
Matthew 11:19,27
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man
gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom
is justified of her children.
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son,
but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he]
to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Matthew 12:8,32,40
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven
him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall
the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 13:37,41
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of
man;
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his
kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 16:13,27-28
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels;
and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of
death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 17:9,12,22
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell
the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but
have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of
man suffer of them.
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall
be betrayed into the hands of men:
Matthew 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed
me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his
glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of
Israel.
Matthew 20:18,28
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the
chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and
to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 24:27,30,37,39,44
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall
all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming
in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man
be.
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the
coming of the Son of man be.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of
man cometh.
Matthew 25:13,31
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of
man cometh.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with
him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 26:2,24,45,64
Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of
man is betrayed to be crucified.
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom
the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been
born.
Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take
[your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed
into the hands of sinners.
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter
shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming
in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 2:10,28
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive
sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mark 8:31,38
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and
be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be
killed, and after three days rise again.
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this
adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be
ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 9:9,12,31
And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should
tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from
the dead.
And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all
things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many
things, and be set at nought.
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered
into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed,
he shall rise the third day.
Mark 10:33,45
[Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall
condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and
to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 13:26,34
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power
and glory.
[For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house,
and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded
the porter to watch.
Mark 14:21,41,62
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by
whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never
been born.
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take
[your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is
betrayed into the hands of sinners.
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right
hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Luke 5:24
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive
sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take
up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Luke 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luke 7:34
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous
man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luke 9:22,26,44,56,58
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the
elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third
day.
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son
of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his]
Father's, and of the holy angels.
Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be
delivered into the hands of men.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them].
And they went to another village.
And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air [have]
nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.
Luke 11:30
For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be
to this generation.
Luke 12:8,10,40
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the
Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall
not be forgiven.
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye
think not.
Luke 17:22-26,30
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to
see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor
follow [them].
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven,
shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be
in his day.
But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son
of man.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 18:8,31
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of
man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to
Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the
Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Luke 21:27,36
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.
Luke 22:22,48,69
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man
by whom he is betrayed!
But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Luke 24:7
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and
be crucified, and the third day rise again.
John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall
see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son
of man.
John 3:13-14
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
[even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son
of man be lifted up:
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son
of man.
John 6:27,53,62
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth
unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him
hath God the Father sealed.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the
flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall
ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father
hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 12:23,34
And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man
should be glorified.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth
for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this
Son of man?
John 13:31
Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man
glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on
the right hand of God.
Revelation 1:13
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man,
clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a
golden girdle.
Revelation 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like
unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a
sharp sickle.
Christ is the Son of God, which makes Him a God. Christ was also the Son of
Man, being born of a woman. There is this connection here, God becomes Man
who becomes God:
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a
spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Christ was our greatest example, He lived and died the Gospel, and expects
us to do the same. By his example we also know that we can become even as
he is, a God. In the Greatest prayer ever prayed, Christ pleads with the
Father to let his followers become like Him and the Father:
John 17:16,21-23
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent
me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one,
even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that
the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast
loved me.
This has pretty well established that Christ is the Son of God, and his
Father is the Eternal God. Two separate, distinct individuals, and that we
may become like them.
Now let us not forget, one of the most important Parts of the God Head, The
Holy Ghost. He has a very important job, he teaches, helps, and is the
"middle man" between us and the Gods. As part of the God Head, he also is a
God:
Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Isaiah 63:10-11
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be
their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where
[is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?
where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Luke 4:1
AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by
the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how
much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask
him?
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel
of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with
that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now
revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.
1 Thessalonians 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given
unto us his holy Spirit.
1 Nephi 2:17
And I spake unto Sam, making known unto him the things which the Lord had
manifested unto me by his Holy Spirit. And it came to pass that he believed
in my words.
1 Nephi 3:20
And also that we may preserve unto them the words which have been spoken by
the mouth of all the holy prophets, which have been delivered unto them by
the Spirit and power of God, since the world began, even down unto this
present time.
2 Nephi 2:28
And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and
hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and
choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
2 Nephi 33:2
But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit,
that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which
are written and esteem them as things of naught.
Jarom 1:4
And there are many among us who have many revelations, for they are not all
stiffnecked. And as many as are not stiffnecked and have faith, have
communion with the Holy Spirit, which maketh manifest unto the children of
men, according to their faith.
Mosiah 3:19
For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam,
and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy
Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the
atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek,
humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the
Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his
father.
Alma 5:46,54
Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of
God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these
things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the
Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the
spirit of revelation which is in me.
Yea, will ye persist in supposing that ye are better one than another; yea,
will ye persist in the persecution of your brethren, who humble themselves
and do walk after the holy order of God, wherewith they have been brought
into this church, having been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and they do
bring forth works which are meet for repentance-
Alma 7:16
And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from
thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will
remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to
the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me.
Alma 13:28
But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy
name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that
which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble,
meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;
Alma 18:34
Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after
the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things
unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is
just and true;
Alma 31:36
Now it came to pass that when Alma had said these words, that he clapped his
hands upon all them who were with him. And behold, as he clapped his hands
upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Helaman 5:45
And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter
into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could
speak forth marvelous words.
Moroni 8:23
But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power
of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
Matthew 1:18,20
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was
espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of
the Holy Ghost.
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared
unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take
unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy
Ghost.
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me
is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize
you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Matthew 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven
unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven
unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven
him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the
Holy Ghost.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,
but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mark 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou
on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 13:11
But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought
beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak,
but the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1:15,35,41,67
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine
nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his
mother's womb.
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the
babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied,
saying,
Luke 2:25-26
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the
same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and
the Holy Ghost was upon him.
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see
death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luke 3:16,22
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but
one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to
unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a
voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am
well pleased.
Luke 4:1
AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by
the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luke 12:10,12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall
not be forgiven.
For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said
unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should
receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not
yet glorified.)
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in
my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Acts 1:2,5,8,16
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost
had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy
Ghost not many days hence.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and
ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in
Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the
Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was
guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 2:4,33,38
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other
tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the
Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now
see and hear.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the
gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 4:8,31
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the
people, and elders of Israel,
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled
together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the
word of God with boldness.
Acts 5:3,32
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the
Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost,
whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Acts 6:3,5
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full
of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man
full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor,
and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Acts 7:51,55
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the
Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and
saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Acts 8:15,17-19
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the
Holy Ghost:
Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy
Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may
receive the Holy Ghost.
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands
on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee
in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy
sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:31
Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria,
and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of
the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Acts 10:38,44-45,47
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who
went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for
God was with him.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which
heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came
with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the
Holy Ghost.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have
received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 11:15-16,24
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the
beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed
baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much
people was added unto the Lord.
Acts 13:2,4,9,52
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me
Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and
from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his
eyes on him,
And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 15:8,28
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy
Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater
burden than these necessary things;
Acts 16:6
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and
were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
Acts 19:2,6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And
they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy
Ghost.
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;
and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 20:23,28
Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and
afflictions abide me.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which
the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he
hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 21:11
And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands
and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at
Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver [him] into
the hands of the Gentiles.
Acts 28:25
And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul
had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto
our fathers,
Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our
hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness
in the Holy Ghost,
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace,
and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Romans 15:13,16
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye
may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering
the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable,
being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with
spiritual.
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is]
in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the
Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
2 Corinthians 6:6
By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost,
by love unfeigned,
2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion
of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.
1 Thessalonians 1:5-6,14
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the
Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were
among you for your sake.
And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in
much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which
dwelleth in us.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Hebrews 2:4
God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with
divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hebrews 3:7
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hebrews 6:4
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted
of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not
yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 10:15
[Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said
before,
1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did
minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have
preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;
which things the angels desire to look into.
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of
God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and
the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in
the Holy Ghost,
1 Nephi 10:11,17,19,22
And it came to pass after my father had spoken these words he spake unto my
brethren concerning the gospel which should be preached among the Jews, and
also concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had
slain the Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should
rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost,
unto the Gentiles.
And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father,
concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he
spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on
the Son of God--and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come--I,
Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these
things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all
those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that
he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be
unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times
as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come;
wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and
deny them not.
1 Nephi 11:27
And I looked and beheld the Redeemer of the world, of whom my father had
spoken; and I also beheld the prophet who should prepare the way before him.
And the Lamb of God went forth and was baptized of him; and after he was
baptized, I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of
heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.
1 Nephi 12:7,18
And I also saw and bear record that the Holy Ghost fell upon twelve others;
and they were ordained of God, and chosen.
And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain
imaginations and the pride of the children of men. And a great and a
terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the
Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost
beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from
this time henceforth and forever.
1 Nephi 13:37
And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for
they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure
unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in
the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea,
tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.
2 Nephi 26:13
And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the
power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and
people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of
men according to their faith.
2 Nephi 28:4,26,31
And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one
with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy
Ghost, which giveth utterance.
Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth
the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!
Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or
shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given
by the power of the Holy Ghost.
2 Nephi 31:8,12-14,17-18,21
Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon
him in the form of a dove.
And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in
my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me;
wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with
full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but
with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye
are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism--yea, by
following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his
word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the
baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue
of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me,
saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father
that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and
have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with
a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should
deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord
and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto
me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by
which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a
remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;
yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the
commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost,
which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the
promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should
receive.
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none
other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the
kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the
only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
which is one God, without end. Amen.
2 Nephi 32:2-3,5
Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy
Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak
with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words
of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for
behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and
receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
2 Nephi 33:1
AND now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my
people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man
speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth
it unto the hearts of the children of men.
Jacob 6:8
Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the
prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning
Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of
Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the
Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath
been laid for you?
Jacob 7:12-13,17
And this is not all--it has been made manifest unto me, for I have heard and
seen; and it also has been made manifest unto me by the power of the Holy
Ghost; wherefore, I know if there should be no atonement made all mankind
must be lost.
And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign by this power of
the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much.
And it came to pass that on the morrow the multitude were gathered together;
and he spake plainly unto them and denied the things which he had taught
them, and confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the
ministering of angels.
Alma 8:30
And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words
of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.
Alma 9:21
Having been visited by the Spirit of God; having conversed with angels, and
having been spoken unto by the voice of the Lord; and having the spirit of
prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and also many gifts, the gift of
speaking with tongues, and the gift of preaching, and the gift of the Holy
Ghost, and the gift of translation;
Alma 13:12
Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments
made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save
it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who
were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.
Alma 34:38
That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and
take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the
dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in
truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and
blessings which he doth bestow upon you.
Alma 36:24
Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that
I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the
exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and
be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Alma 39:5-6
Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of
the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of
innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and
ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea,
and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not
easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is
not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
3 Nephi 9:20
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite
spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,
him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites,
because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized
with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
3 Nephi 11:25,27,32,35-36
Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say
unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am
in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given
unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of
me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear
record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe
in me.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record
of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father
also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him
with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear
record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy
Ghost are one.
3 Nephi 12:1-2,6
AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and
to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called,
and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he
stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying:
Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I
have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants;
and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and
after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire
and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me
and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.
And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because
that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea,
blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the
depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and
with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.
And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for
they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.
3 Nephi 15:23
And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they
understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my
voice--that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy
Ghost.
3 Nephi 16:4,6
And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if
it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me
in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a
knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they
know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall
be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles,
the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the
earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a
knowledge of me, their Redeemer.
And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the
Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
3 Nephi 18:37
And the multitude heard not the words which he spake, therefore they did not
bear record; but the disciples bare record that he gave them power to give
the Holy Ghost. And I will show unto you hereafter that this record is true.
3 Nephi 19:9,13,20-22
And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that
the Holy Ghost should be given unto them.
And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the
water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy
Ghost and with fire.
Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I
have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them
out of the world.
Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that
shall believe in their words.
Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and
thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray
unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
3 Nephi 20:27
And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which
he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the
earth be blessed--unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the
Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all,
unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel.
3 Nephi 21:2
And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign--for
verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and
which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the
Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known
unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a
remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be
scattered by them;
3 Nephi 26:17
And it came to pass that the disciples whom Jesus had chosen began from that
time forth to baptize and to teach as many as did come unto them; and as
many as were baptized in the name of Jesus were filled with the Holy Ghost.
3 Nephi 27:20
Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto
me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of
the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
3 Nephi 28:11,18
And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father
giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.
But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given--they
did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the
people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching;
baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.
3 Nephi 29:6
Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall
say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts,
or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!
3 Nephi 30:2
Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil
doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your
secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your
priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your
wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name,
that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy
Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of
Israel.
4 Nephi 1:1,48
AND it came to pass that the thirty and fourth year passed away, and also
the thirty and fifth, and behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a church
of Christ in all the lands round about. And as many as did come unto them,
and did truly repent of their sins, were baptized in the name of Jesus; and
they did also receive the Holy Ghost.
And it came to pass that when three hundred and twenty years had passed
away, Ammaron, being constrained by the Holy Ghost, did hide up the records
which were sacred--yea, even all the sacred records which had been handed
down from generation to generation, which were sacred--even until the three
hundred and twentieth year from the coming of Christ.
Mormon 1:14
And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon
any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.
Mormon 7:7,10
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is
found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to
dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with
the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy
Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore
ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant; and if it so be that
ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and
with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that
which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of
judgment. Amen.
Ether 5:4
And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and
the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the
power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the
Holy Ghost bear record--and all this shall stand as a testimony against the
world at the last day.
Ether 12:14,23,41
Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the
Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because
of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by
faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all
this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou
hast given them;
And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and
apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord
Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and
abide in you forever. Amen.
Moroni 2:2-3
And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name,
in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to
him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in
my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.
Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing;
and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many
as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.
Moroni 3:4
And after this manner did they ordain priests and teachers, according to the
gifts and callings of God unto men; and they ordained them by the power of
the Holy Ghost, which was in them.
Moroni 6:4,9
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and
cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people
of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be
remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right
way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the
merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the
workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power
of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or
to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.
Moroni 7:32,36,44
And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may
have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts,
according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the
Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld
the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall
last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face
thereof to be saved?
If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save
the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and
confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must
needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he
must needs have charity.
Moroni 8:7,9,26,28
For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the
Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power
of the Holy Ghost, saying:
And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me;
wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that
ye should baptize little children.
And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and
because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy
Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love
endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the
saints shall dwell with God.
Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I
fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the
land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh
from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
Moroni 10:4-5,7
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask
God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not
true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having
faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of
the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I
would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power,
according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow,
and forever.
These whole sets of scripture show another individual, the Holy Ghost, or
Spirit. Now I will look at his purpose, and you will see how his purpose
differs from that of Christ and God the Father:
Luke 4:14,17
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went
out a fame of him through all the region round about.
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth
him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and
shall be in you.
The Spirit is Powerful, and is Truth.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,
[even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall
testify of me:
The Spirit is the Comforter.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all
truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,
[that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The Spirit is a Guide to Truth.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children
of God:
The Spirit is a Witness.
1 Corinthians 2:4,10
And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's
wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth
all things, yea, the deep things of God.
The Spirit is Wisdom, and a Searcher.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which
worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of
knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the
same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another
discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the
interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every
man severally as he will.
The Spirit is Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healer, Miracle Worker, Prophet,
Discerner, Linguest, and Translater.
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The Spirit is Love, Peace, Joy, Patient, Gentle, Good, Meek, and Temperate.
Ephesians 1:13,17
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel
of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with
that holy Spirit of promise,
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto
you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The Spirit is Hope, and a Revelator.
Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now
revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water
only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is truth.
1 Nephi 22:2
And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by
the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto
the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the
flesh.
2 Nephi 21:2
And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and
understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and
of the fear of the Lord;
2 Nephi 32:8
And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your
hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if
ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know
that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but
teacheth him that he must not pray.
The Spirit is a Teacher.
Moroni 7:16
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know
good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing
which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent
forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect
knowledge it is of God.
Also, we know that the Spirit is a Spirit, and Christ is Flesh and Bone, and
Christ and His Father are the same(Christ is after the image of His Father),
so the Spirit is also an individual, not one in the same with Christ, who is
not one in the same with his Father.
So we see clearly that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost(Spirit), are
individuals that make up the Head of the Gods, thus God Head. They each
have a different purpose and they all have one will.
I theink that the easiest way to see the three together is to look at the
Baptism of Christ, you Hear the Father, See the Son, and See the Holy
Spirit. How hard is it to believe that the Bible tells the truth? When it
says:
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and
the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Why can we not believe?
And the BoM tells us also, it contains the same Truths:
2 Nephi 31:18
And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;
yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the
commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost,
which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the
promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should
receive.
Ether 5:4
And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and
the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the
power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the
Holy Ghost bear record--and all this shall stand as a testimony against the
world at the last day.
--
--Efialtis
BoM:
Alma Chapter 5, Verses 59 through 60
Also see:
Alma Chapter 5, Verses 56 through 62
EricLHHH
"> lyc...@aol.com (Lycida) said:
>God Himself is never present
>within anyone in an visceral way. In fact, >he communicates to us only
through the >Holy Ghost, and, on rare occasions, >through other messengers...
I know that the indwelling of the holy spirit is not like having a peace of pie
in your gut but here are the the facts about his not so rare presence: Its
more than just mere communication!
1 Cor 6:19 "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who
is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Acts 4:31 "After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God
boldly."
And Finally, but not least of all:
Acts 5:32 "We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom
God has given to those who obey him."
How does the Holy Spirit communicate with you? Is he in you?
eric
HBlack
> Okay, I have to butt in, even though I just don't have the patience for willful
> misreading and dunderheadedness (from both the pro- and the anti- sides) that
> many folks seem to have.
>
> I'm going to stick with one point--although there are many possibles--just to
> keep things clear in my own, limited, mind.
>
> Tom said:
>
> >> I submit to you that Jesus Christ desires that he would be in you, and you
> >> in him. He desires that your will be swallowed up in His will, such that
> >> you become of one mind and one heart in Christ. He wants you to have your
> >> eyes single to his glory... to have His image in your countenance. NOT to
> >> possess your body, as if to live inside of you.
>
> To which Harry responded:
>
> > You completely missed my point.
> > God is never confined to anyone's body.
> > Yet Mormon scripture explicitly claims that the
> >Holy Ghost cannot have a body BECAUSE he would
> >then be unable to "dwell in us."
>
> First statement:
>
> I'm not sure whether he missed your point, so I can't comment. However, it is
> clear that you missed his.
How is it clear I missed Tom's point?
> Second statement:
>
> Of course God is not confined to anyone's body. God Himself is never present
> within anyone in an visceral way.
Define "visceral way"
Call for references.
Explain how God can be "in and through
all things," in the following quote, and yet, as you
just said, "never present within anyone in a visceral way."
"[1833 D&C 88] 6 HE THAT ASCENDED up
on high, as also he descended below all things, in
that he comprehended all things, that he might be IN
all and through ALL THINGS."
> In fact, he communicates to us only through
> the Holy Ghost, and, on rare occasions, through other messengers (JC
"JC" =Jesus Christ?
Now Jesus Christ is defined by the Book of
Mormon as:
"the God of Israel, and the God of the
whole earth," (3 Nephi 11:14)
That is Jesus Christ = Jehovah, with
everything that entails as God of the
Old Testament::
"I am he that gave the law, and I am
he who covenanted with my people
Israel" (3 Nephi 15:5)
Further every title held by the God is
also used to designate Jesus Christ:
"God" (Mosiah 7:27)
"God" (1 Nephi 11:18 Original mss
Printer's mss, and 1830 edition)
"the Holy One of Israel" (1 Nephi 22:21,
2 Nephi 9:12, 25:29, 30:2, Omni 1:26)
"the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their
Redeemer and their God" (2 Nephi 1:10)
"The Mighty God" (2 Nephi 19:6)
"the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel" (2 Nephi 6:9)
"the God, the Father of all things" (Mosiah 7:27)
"the Everlasting God" (1 Nephi 11:32 Original mss
Printer's mss, and 1830 edition)
"the Eternal God" (title page, 2 Nephi 26:12)
"God Himself" (Mosiah 13:34, 15:1, 17:8, Alma 42:15)
"the Lord Omnipotent," (Mosiah 3:5,17f)
"the Lord God Omnipotent" (Mosiah 3:21, 5:15)
"The Everlasting Father" (2 Nephi 19:6)
"the Eternal Father" (1 Nephi 11:21 Original mss
Printer's mss, and 1830 edition)
"the Eternal Father" (1 Nephi 13:40 Printer's mss,
and 1830 edition)
"the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father" (Mosiah 16:5)
""
"the Father and the Son" (Mosiah 15;2, Ether 3:14,
Mormon 9:12)
"the Father of heaven and of earth" (2 Nephi 25:12)
"the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and
all things that in them are." (Ether 4:7)
"the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all
things from the beginning" (Mosiah 3:8)
"who created heaven and earth, and all things;"
(Mosiah 4:2)
"your Father who is in heaven" (3 Nephi 12:48)
"I that hath created them" (Mosiah 26:23)
"I created the heavens and the earth, and all
things that in them are" (3 Nephi 9:15)
"man whom I have created...
even all men were created in the
beginning," (Ether 3:15)
"man have I created after the body of my spirit"
(Ether 3:16)
"him who created all things, in heaven and in
earth, who is God above all." (Mosiah 5:15)
How can you now assert that in Mormon doctrine
Jesus Christ is a mere "messenger" of God, and
not God Himself?
> , angels,
> whatever). His INFLUENCE is felt everywhere, because of his power, of course,
> but primarily because of the intercession of those intermediaries (HG,
> particularly). We receive his Word and his Will, but he is not Himself
> physically present within any of us.
The state of being "physically present within us" is in fact a
contradiction in terms for a God of flesh..
> The relationship between God's works and
> representing God is, of course, spoken of at great length by Christ (see, for
> example, John 10:25-38, and John 14 [6-11, particularly]) but never are we told
> that God Himself as a personage can dwell within us.
Define "God Himself as a personage."
Mormon revelation clearly asserts that the Holy Ghost is
not only a personage, but does "dwell within us":
"[1843 D&C 130] 22... the Holy Ghost ...
is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so,
the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
> Which in no way denigrates God's abilities.
Not so.
Mormon revelation asserts that God does
in fact exists everywhere, and IN all things:
"[1833 D&C 88] 6 HE THAT ASCENDED up
on high, as also he descended below all things, in
that he comprehended all things, that he might be IN
all and through ALL THINGS, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ.
As also HE IS IN THE SUN, and the light of the
sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also HE IS IN THE MOON, and is the light
of the moon, and the power thereof by which it
was made; 9 As also the light of the stars, and the
power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof,
even the earth upon which you stand."
God and Jesus dwell within each other:
"I am in the Father, and the Father in me"
(3 Nephi 9:15, 11:27)
God dwells inside the bodies ("temples"),
of the righteous:
"he doth not dwell in unholy temples" (Alma 7:21)
> If you have references which
> contradict what I've just said, please cite them and I'll get back to you.
>
> Third statement:
>
> As I've just stated, God does not dwell directly within us. Nor does he
> personally whisper in our ears (well, not mine--I wouldn't want to speak for
> everyone). Ditto Christ. Have you ever heard of two separate
> saints/apostles/prophets/whatever getting direct revelation at precisely the
> same time from God/Christ in person?
1- The apostles:
1 Corinthians 15:5,7
Matt chap 28
Luke chap 24; Acts chap 1
John chap 20-21
2- The 500:
1 Corinthians 15:6
3- The assembled camp of Israel:
Direct verbal, audible revelation from Jehovah to the
Israelites en masse was the express intent of God
at Sinai, which they subsequently rejected:
"Ex 19.9 ś And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come
unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when
I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever."
This is the definitive promise to Christians
collectively, at all times, simultaneously:
"Matt 18:20... where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
This is the definitive promise to Christians
individually, at all times, simultaneously:
"[John 14:20]... ye shall know that I [am]
in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
10 Believest thou not that I am IN the Father,
and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto
you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
DWELLETH IN me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I [am] IN the Father, and the
Father in me: 23... If a man love me, he will
keep my words: and my Father will love
him, and we will come unto
him, and make our ABODE with him."
15.4 ABIDE IN me, and I IN you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except
it abide IN the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide
in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches:
He that ABIDETH in me, and I IN him, the same
bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do
nothing. 6 If a man ABIDE not IN me, he is cast
forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather
them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are
burned. 7 If ye ABIDE IN me, and my words
ABIDE IN you, ye shall ask what ye will,
and it shall be done unto you."
"1 John 4:16... God is love; and he that
dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."
> If you have, please cite references, and I'll respond.
>
> Otherwise, you must admit (unless you are willfully misunderstanding) that we
> have no evidence that the PERSONS (read "personal presence") of God and Christ
> have ever been visibly manifest in more than one place at a time.
The Father is invisible, He cannot be seen. He has no body. He can
materialize a body at will in any form, but it is delusion to think that he
is limited in his presence to the time and place he manifests himself
in that form, or that that form, no matter how glorious it might appear,
is all of God, much less the only place God exists:
It is thus impossible to truly see the almighty, omnipresent
God himself. Fragmentary, simplified representations, yes,
the reality, no.
"1 Timothy 1:17... the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE,
the only wise God. 6:16... WHOM NO MAN HATH
SEEN, NOR CAN SEE"
"John 1.18 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME"
"1 John 4:12 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME"
Mormonism once recognized these facts.
Let's return to D&C 88, which I quoted part of
earlier:
"[1833 88.40] ... judgment goeth before the face
of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth
and executeth all things. 41 He comprehendeth all things,
and all things are before him, and all things are round about
him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through
all things, and is round about all things; and
all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.
45 The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by
day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also
give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in
the midst of the power of God. 47 Behold, all these are kingdoms,
and ANY MAN who hath seen any or the least of these
HATH SEEN GOD moving in his majesty and power.
48 I say unto you, HE HATH SEEN HIM"
> Rather, we
> see His (God's, since Christ is simply standing on his right hand--I'll grant
> you that one) power, His glory, we do His works, we witness others who do His
> works, and we have the gift of the Holy Ghost at all times reminding us of
> God's power and glory and prompting us to do God's will.
>
> God cannot and does not dwell personally within us (to summarize). Or so is my
> belief--I'm willing to read references stating otherwise. Therefore, it is
> possible for Him to be incarnate. The Holy Ghost, however, can and does dwell
> within everyone
The Holy Ghost can dwell with everyone, but not in any way different
from the other 2 persons who constitute the Being called God.
> as a conduit to God and His will. Therefore, it is impossible
> for the HG to be incarnate.
Being incarnate now certainly imposes no limitations
whatever on Jesus, just as not having a personal body of
flesh has never imposed any limitations on the Father..
> If I have in any way not made this clear, I'm sure you'll find the loophole.
>
> However, what I'm really interested in is this--what do you believe, Harry?
See above.
Go to Deja News and read my thousands of posts.
> What is the Holy Ghost to you?
The fire that baptizes Christians and blazes in their lives..
> How about you show a little courage and put
> your beliefs before us for criticism,
This is a.r.mormonism. The topic for discussion
is not Christianity, but its current fad counterfeit
largely in the guise of Utah Mormonism.
> rather than hiding behind empty criticism
> of our beliefs? .
> If you've already done this, I apologize. Refer me to it and I'll read it
> carefully before needlessly and callously accusing you of moral cowardice.
>
> Love,
Warm regards!
Thank you for a worthwhile, civil dialogue.
May it ever remain so,
The Hare
> LF
Lycida
They say the last shall be first and the first last, so I'm starting at the end
of your post and working forward.
I'm also, at the moment, ignoring your call for references--but that's because
I'm just trying to set up an appropriate and well-mannered forum for debate.
:)
Which, I think, covers your:
> Warm regards!
> Thank you for a worthwhile, civil dialogue.
> May it ever remain so,
>
I'm a woman who doesn't mind being called a lady--call me a femininist. And I
won't call you a Blackguard unless you really like being called one (Oy! Ye
blaggard!). I think you should start using it as your signature. It's got a
real ring to it.
> This is a.r.mormonism. The topic for discussion
>is not Christianity, but its current fad counterfeit
>largely in the guise of Utah Mormonism.
Well, that's an interesting statement, and I'd say yes and no. I have no
problem with people levelling criticisms at Mormons for weird doctrines and
dogma perpetuated by Mormons and Mormons alone. There are plenty of those, and
I'm willing to defend them or not as the case may be. The great thing about
early Mormonism (and a thing no longer true) is that it encouraged theological
speculation. Now if we Mormons want to speculate we have to come here and do
it with folks like you, who mostly just want to rip us to shreds. :)
ANYWAY, the point being that I don't care about Christianity--I'm perfectly
capable of discussing that when necessary. I'm interested in your personal
beliefs because I can't possibly argue for or against something without knowing
what my opponent is arguing for or against.
Please understand that though your beliefs may be perfectly obvious to you,
since you hold them, I can't tell what they are. I'm not God (and never intend
to be, despite my apparent Mormonism, thank you very much).
Which brings us to this:
>> However, what I'm really interested in is this--what do you believe, Harry?
>
> See above.
> Go to Deja News and read my thousands of posts.
Yes, there ARE. And, as many people have discovered about Mormonism (to their
despair and/or delight depending on which side of the argument they're on) the
more information you have, the less you really know. All I know for sure is
that you really dislike Mormonism. I'm just not sure what you have to offer me
in its place. I'll propose a possibility (based on deductions which may be
completely inaccurate and springing from my own prejudices): You believe
basically that God is Love--He is everywhere and nowhere, that He manifests
himself in everything and that (here's where you break with Mormonism) He does
not have a physical presence that is an intrinsic part of His divine nature.
It bothers you that Mormons say that the Holy Ghost CANNOT have a physical
presence because if the HG DID have a physical body it could be everywhere.
This doesn't bother you in an of itself (as you say:
>> What is the Holy Ghost to you?
>
> The fire that baptizes Christians and blazes in their lives..)
but because Mormons also say that God has a physical body that is intrinsically
part of himself. This forces you to believe they are also saying that GOD
cannot be everywhere, so this body makes him a limited God.
Whew! That's a mouthful, but I think it says what you want to say, in this
case. Yes? Please correct if necessary.
But here's where I get confused:
>> as a conduit to God and His will. Therefore, it is impossible
>> for the HG to be incarnate.
>
> Being incarnate now certainly imposes no limitations
>whatever on Jesus, just as not having a personal body of
>flesh has never imposed any limitations on the Father..
I believe (not knowing you personally, but from your posts) that this is an
expression of sarcasm, not straight agreement (you aren't AGREEING WITH ME
here, are you Harry? I didn't think so). You're saying that being incarnate
imposes no restrictions on either Christ our Redeemer or God the Father because
they are NOT incarnate? I say it imposes no restrictions because they are not
incarnate in a way we understand incarnate (their bodies as they have them now
are not like ours and function on an entirely different plane). You say no
restrictions because they are of the spirit and have no physical presence on
any plane?
Is this the gist of your statement, or do I have it wrong?
Which you say here:
> The Holy Ghost can dwell with everyone, but not in any way different
>from the other 2 persons who constitute the Being called God
Which is a statement I disagree with, for which disagreement I must provide
references and will--call for them again after I've made a point I think is
important for us if we're going to have a civil debate (meaning we can each
think the other is an idiot, but we shouldn't say it!). :)
My point is that we need to be absolutely certain we understand each other
Harry, because from this point out it's ALL word games.
I repeat:
<<<DISCUSSIONS OF THEOLOGY ARE ALL WORD GAMES>>>
Theology is only real within the spirit. Once you put it on the page it
becomes unreal. If it has to be said in words, it loses its direct contact
with God.
See, let me show you. Here's your quote:
> The Father is invisible, He cannot be seen. He has no body. He can
>materialize a body at will in any form, but it is delusion to think that he
>is limited in his presence to the time and place he manifests himself
>in that form, or that that form, no matter how glorious it might appear,
Of course the father is invisible. What does the word "invisible" mean?
Simply, "not visible." Not that he is not there, or that he is spirit. Simply
that he cannot be seen.
Which does not lead to "he has no body." Not all Mormons claim he has a body
exactly like a human body--in fact, no Mormons claim his body is EXACTLY like
yours and mine. Nor do they claim that he cannot manifest himself without
showing his body. It is (I believe the term is) a glorified (I don't quote
because it's not a set phrase) body quite different from our own. This body
could be invisible for a number of reason, the most reasonable (sorry, it's not
quite the right word to use--religion isn't reasonable, ever) of which is that
it exists on some plane of existance (another dimension, whatever--all opinions
expressed are my own, and not supported by the Mormon church although they no
doubt were inspired by its loving brainwashing techniques) we cannot enter in
our present, mortal, state.
We don't really know what kind of body this is, but just because it is
INVISIBLE does not mean it cannot be an actual, physical house wherein resides
his spirit. He obviously can project his spirit (some humans claim to do
this--I never have, so I don't know anything about it) elsewhere, but we
believe that the body is an essential part of his being. Not merely a parlor
trick he puts on when he deigns to speak with us mere mortals.
So then you say:
> It is thus impossible to truly see the almighty, omnipresent
>God himself. Fragmentary, simplified representations, yes,
>the reality, no.
Which is fine, but still doesn't prove anything. It's impossible for you to
truly see ME, and I'm not nearly as boundless and complex as God. Sure, you
can see my body (well, no, you can't--you have to accept on faith that I have
one and that I'm not a product of some fevered computer brain) but that doesn't
mean that you can see the reality of my soul that dwells within my body. How
many times has someone told his/her spouse/significant other/parent/whatever,
"You don't really know who I am"? Can't it be the same thing for God? If not,
why?
Anyway, let's approach your references here:
> "1 Timothy 1:17... the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE,
>the only wise God.
We've already discussed "invisible." It doesn't mean "intangible in every
sense" it only means "not seen."
Your next quotation is very interesting:
[1 Timothy]>6:16... WHOM NO MAN HATH
>SEEN, NOR CAN SEE"
Now, Joseph Smith incurred the wrath of all good non-Mormon Christians by
altering this scripture a little bit, as well as the following two from John
(Gospel) and 1 John (Epistle) but of course I can't use his alterations because
you don't believe they were in any way inspired.
Which is fine, because I don't need them.
Let's take the Timothy references because those'll work. I could do the John,
but to take care of all of them would take all day and I have to pick my
daughter up from school.
Paul was writing to Timothy. Now, Paul was a Pharisee before his little
experience on the road to Damascus, during which he was spoken to by the
disembodied voice of the Lord Jesus Christ. We all know this, of course, I'm
just summarizing.
Paul never saw God face to face, though he did see a light. He was one of the
persecuters of Stephen, who claimed to see God (in a vision, so I'm not using
that as any sort of proof) and was stoned for it.
Frankly, as a student of human nature, I'm never going to believe anything Paul
has to say about the subject, simply because I'm sure it's a sore point with
him. He can't believe you can see God because otherwise he's going to be held
accountable for Stephen's death.
But that's all conjecture, and therefore subjective. Objectively, we can say
with absolute certainty that Paul's statements contradicts other biblical
statements. For example (dredging up the scriptures that Mormons like to refer
to--as opposed to the ones you've just pointed out, which are the ones
anti-mormons like to refer to):
Gen. 32:30 "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Jacob
wrestles with a man--some say he must have been an angel, but Jacob seems to
think it was God, and he was there, so he should know better than I.)
Ex. 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto
his friend."
Isaiah 6:5 "for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Now, all of these can be naysayed as much as any of the New Testament
references you've referred to. They were visions or angels or the translation
is messed up or what have you. All these arguments are as questionable coming
from the anti- side as they are coming from the pro- side.
However, if you're taking them word for word and literally (which you're doing
with your references, so I feel free to do them with mine), they DIRECTLY
CONTRADICT your references.
I'm eager to hear how you explain this contradiction. Many ARMers would say
that the BoM is not a true book because it contradicts the bible. How do we
deal with references in the New Testament that directly contradict statements
made in the Torah? Does this mean that Christianity is, indeed, merely a
Jewish heresy? And a poorly translated one at that?
Hey, I'll buy that one if you will.
But wait! Hou have the convenience of not only stating that God is "invisible"
but that he can . . . where's the quote . . . I already used it once . . . .
>He can
>materialize a body at will in any form,
So he's not ALWAYS invisible? Sure, that would make you right, Harry. And it
would resolve the conflicts between your scriptures and mine except . . .
except that Paul still says that "No man HATH seen, nor CAN see" God (emphasis
mine).
Which would mean that he DOESN'T materialize in a body at will. Also, if we
really want to take this literally, Paul is saying that God CANNOT materialize
a body at will, since if no man can see God, then we have to also accept the
parallel that therefore God cannot cause himself to BE SEEN by men. Which makes
Paul's God an even more limited God than Joe Smith's God.
I like your scripture references, Harry. They bubble and spit when thrown into
the cauldron. Gee. Paul's just as bad as Joe.
Let's talk about this more.
:)
LF
Lycida
<snip>
>Acts 5:32 "We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom
>God has given to those who obey him."
>
>How does the Holy Spirit communicate with you? Is he in you?
>
>eric
Of course he does, Eric, but that's not the point.
I'm arguing that the Holy Spirit is only God's manifestation and messenger
within me, but that It isn't God Himself. Kind of like a letter sent by God
and read directly by my spirit rather than through my eyes, which can deceive.
You appear to be arguing that the Holy Spirit IS God.
Which is fine, many people argue that. I don't mind.
LF
Neos Efialtis
Or.
Consider the following:
This is a commandment:
This is self explanatory:
Compare the following also:
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to
face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus 24:10-11
God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them
are.
Ether 12:11
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a
spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Christ was our greatest example, He lived and died the Gospel, and expects
EricLHHH
>From: Efia...@WinISP.net
>Date: Wed, 27 October 1999 04:29 PM EDT
To: Thank you for the exceedingly long file. I want to know what translation
of the Bible you have? It is certainly revealing to me and I hope will become
so to others the extent of the Smith/Mormon manipulation and distortion of the
Word of God. I don’t know if many of these verses are your own translation or
that of the late Joseph Smith, but it is clear that some of them do not agree
with the translations I have which were translated from the original Hebrew
text. Since your file is 48 pages long I only had time to address the first
few pages so far. I take it that the first part of the verses are an attempt
to support the Mormon view of plural Gods. I keep running into a propensity
from Mormons to quote verses like the ones you quoted here completely out of
context. You have outdone them all however and so you will be outdone more
than all of them as a result. First of all I want to say that in the old
testament the gods of other nations, the idols of the pagans that surrounded
Israel, the gods of Egypt were considered to be gods by the people who
worshipped them. In rebuking these gods the Lord God of Israel is often
referred to in the context of many verses as being the God of gods and the
Great God etc. I will let the verses from the True Word of God speak for
themselves in contrast to the verses you have offered as proof apparently of
your ultimate deification and the infinite generations of gods.
Your quote of Satan’s temptation: Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
-----And this proves? Satan is a liar!
Your remark: This is from a prayer of a prophet
Your quote: Exodus 15:11 Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who
[is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?
----God’s Word - Exodus 15:12. You stretched out your right hand and the earth
swallowed them.
----This next verse reveals this cutting result of God’s rebuke of FALSE gods
mentioned in verse 11!
Your quote: Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD [is] greater than all gods:
for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly [he was] above them.
Your remark - This is a commandment:
----God’s Word - Exodus 18:11: "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all
other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly."
----This again is a rebuke of FALSE Gods if you read the verse in its full
context with accompanying verses!
Your quote: Exodus 22:28 " Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler
of thy people."
Your remark - This is self explanatory:
----God’s Word - Exodus 22:28. "Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of
your people.
----So is this! ITS GOD NOT GODS!
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a
great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh
reward:
----God’s Word - Duet 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of
lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts
no bribes. the great God"
----I think the difference between A great god and THE GREAT GOD is quite
clear!
Your quote: Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he
knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in
transgression against the LORD,
(save us not this day,)
----God’s Word - Joshua 22:22 "The Mighty One, God, the LORD! The Mighty One,
God, the LORD! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or
disobedience to the LORD, do not spare us this day."
----God’s word in contrast to the Smith perversion of the original text to
include gods and exclude one!
Your quote: 2 Chronicles 2:5 And the house which I build [is] great: for great
[is] our God above all
gods.
----God’s Word - 2 Chronicles 2:5&6 "The temple I am going to build will be
great, because our God is greater than all other gods. But who is able to
build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot
contain him"
---- I included the next verse so you could see just what kind of house man is
able to build for God.
Your quote: Psalms 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of
the mighty; he judgeth
among the gods.
Your Quote: Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are]
children of the most High.
----Gods Word - Psalms 82:5-7 5. "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6. "I
said, `You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7. But you will die
like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."
----You Mormons don’t like verse five or seven do you? Again in its context
this is a rebuke of false gods.
Your quote: Psalms 86:8 Among the gods [there is] none like unto thee, O Lord;
neither [are there
any works] like unto thy works.
----What comes between 6 & 8? Oh look 7! I want to emphasize the words DIE
and MERE MEN in reference to those other gods mentioned in verse 1 and 6!
(see above)
Your quote: Psalms 95:3 For the LORD [is] a great God, and a great King above
all gods.
----Gods’ Word - Psalms 95:3. For the LORD is the great God, the great King
above all gods.
----Once again I think the difference between A great god and THE GREAT GOD is
quite clear except to Mormons!
Your quote: Psalms 96:4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he
[is] to be feared above all gods.
----God’s Word - Psalms 96:5 "For all the gods of the nations are idols, but
the LORD made the heavens."
----Its that next verse that keeps getting you doesn’t it?
Your quote: Psalms 97:9 For thou, LORD, [art] high above all the earth: thou
art exalted far above
all gods.
----Gods Word - Psalms 97:7. All who worship images are put to shame, those
who boast in idols-- worship him, all you gods!
----OK sometimes its the verse or two before that gets you!
Your quote: Psalms 135:5 For I know that the LORD [is] great, and [that] our
Lord [is] above all gods.
----God’s Word - Psalm 135:5. I know that the LORD is great, that our Lord is
greater than all gods.
---- God’ Word - Psalm 135:15-17 " The idols of the nations are silver and
gold, made by the hands of men. They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but
they cannot see; they have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their
mouths."
----This the true nature of these so called gods the Psalter is referring to in
verse 5! Selah!
Your quote: Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy
[endureth] for ever.
----God's Word - Psalm 136 3-4 "Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love
endures forever. to him who alone does great wonders, His love endures
forever.
----That’s God alone who does great wonders for all you polytheist out there!
Your quote: Psalms 138:1 [A Psalm] of David. I will praise thee with my whole
heart: before the gods
will I sing praise unto thee.
----God’s Word Psalm 138:2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will
praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted
above all things your name and your word.
----Again David is referring to other gods who are false like exalted Mormons
for God has exalted his name and His Word above all things even exalted
Mormons.
Your quote: Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he
shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak
marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the
indignation be ccomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
---This is a prophecy concerning the anti-Christ, the chief god who exalts
himself above all the so called gods and God himself. Is god referring to the
Mormons here? hmm! Let’s see what happens to this unfortunate king who
exalts himself. Note: Key words "exalts himself"!!
----God’s Word 11:45- " He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the
beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help
him."
----Where is your exalted tent pitched. Is it not believed by you to be in
your heart to be on the Holy Mountain even the Temple of God in Jerusalem
itself?
Your remark: These are people worried about the Gods that put the plague on
Egypt? Which God(s) put the plague on Egypt? Would that be the God(s) of
Moses?
Your quote: 1 Samuel 4:8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of
these mighty Gods? these [are] the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the
plagues in the wilderness.
----God’s Word - Samuel 4:7 " the Philistines were afraid. "A god has come into
the camp," they said. "We're in trouble! Nothing like this has happened
before."
----So the ramblings of pagans afraid of the ark of the covenant and who are on
the verge of destruction now prove the plurality of (the) God(s). Please! This
is too easy!
I Challenge you to produce the translation of the above scriptures you quoted
where the name of God is made plural or (a) is added instead of (The), etc.
Bring them forward since you are such a scholar. Who translated them an by
what text were they translated. You Mormons should have this written down
above all things knowing your propensity for historical accuracy. I understand
Joseph had a calling to translate the Bible after he moved to Kirkland. Is
your version the one he came up with? Can you tell me where to he published
his notes where he translated the Bible from the original Hebrew text etal.
Show them too me or tell me where I can find this information. yet I suppose
its like those venerable plates. Only God knows where they are or aren’t.
In truth,
eric
EricLHHH
>You appear to be arguing that the Holy Spirit IS God.
He is. Its God's Spirit! Not a seperate person or some force like rays of
divine light or a substance. It is the person of God's Holy Spirit living in
the believer. I know Mormons don't get this because it doesn't support your
polytheistic view of your gods.
Again I quote: 1 Cor 3:16. Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple
and that God's Spirit lives in you?
That's God's Spirit not (a) gods spirit!!
eric