New Prophet

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180102...@sscl.uwo.ca

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Mar 4, 1995, 2:51:20 PM3/4/95
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I am a little vague on how the procedure goes for chosing the next
head of our church. I thought it just went pretty much automatically to the
senior apostle but people are saying differently here. Could someone post or
e-mail me the procedure so I don't feel quite so lost. Thanks.

Bruce A. Leach "There's narry an animal alive that
180102...@sscl.uwo.ca that can outrun a greased
The University Of Western Scotsman"
Ontario, London, Can. -------Groundskeeper Willie--------

Rich Wales

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Mar 4, 1995, 9:30:26 PM3/4/95
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Bruce Leach <180102...@sscl.uwo.ca> wrote:

I am a little vague on how the procedure goes for chosing
the next head of our church. I thought it just went pretty
much automatically to the senior apostle but people are
saying differently here. Could someone post or e-mail me
the procedure so I don't feel quite so lost. Thanks.

When the President of the Church dies, the First Presidency is automat-
ically dissolved, and the late President's former counselors go back
into the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (assuming they were originally
in the Twelve, which is virtually always the case).

This means that -- at least for a time -- the Quorum of the "Twelve"
will in fact have fourteen members (but the name of the quorum will not
change :-}).

The Quorum of the Twelve, being the highest-ranking priesthood body at
this point, leads the Church (remember what happened after Joseph Smith
died?); and the President of the Quorum of the Twelve is the earthly
presiding officer over the entire Church. Although he does not tech-
nically hold the title of "President of the Church" (see below), for all
practical purposes he might as well be such.

The senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve -- i.e., the one who was
set apart the longest time ago as a member of the Twelve -- is, by def-
inition, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. At present, this
person is Gordon B. Hinckley.

Note that Pres. Hinckley was President of the Twelve while Pres. Hunter
was President of the Church. However, since Pres. Hinckley was a coun-
selor in the First Presidency (and thus not serving as part of the
Twelve), the senior apostle who =was= serving as part of the Twelve --
Boyd K. Packer -- was =acting= President of the Twelve.

If a stake, ward, or branch conference were held this Sunday, the proper
thing to do would be to sustain Gordon B. Hinckley as "President of the
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" -- but =not= as "President of the Church"
yet, because that title implies the existence of a First Presidency,
and the First Presidency will not yet have been reorganized. (We went
through this in my stake last spring, BTW, when one of our ward confer-
ences occurred between Pres. Benson's passing and the reorganization of
the First Presidency. Presumably other stakes did too.)

Sometime fairly soon (very likely next week), the Twelve will set apart
Gordon B. Hinckley as President of the Church. His counselors will be
set apart as well, and the First Presidency will exist once again. Once
this has been done, the next apostle in seniority (Thomas S. Monson)
will be President of the Twelve -- though if he is called once again to
the First Presidency, Boyd K. Packer will serve as "Acting President"
of the Twelve -- unless, that is, Pres. Packer is also called as a coun-
selor in the First Presidency, in which case the =next= apostle in sen-
iority (L. Tom Perry) will be Acting President of the Twelve.

As for what Pres. Hinckley's status is right now: As presiding officer
over the presiding quorum, he is "the Prophet" (as we commonly use the
term), in the sense that if the Lord has anything that needs to be
revealed to the earthly leader of His Church, He will reveal it to
Pres. Hinckley. He does not technically hold the title of "President
of the Church" until the First Presidency is officially reconstituted,
but that's the only difference. When the Twelve set apart Pres. Hinck-
ley as President of the Church, they will simply be reaffirming the
position which he already holds.

In theory, the Quorum of the Twelve could decide to set someone else
apart as President of the Church, instead of Pres. Hinckley. But this
would not happen unless the Lord chose to reveal to His spokesman (i.e.,
Pres. Hinckley himself) that someone else should be chosen.

Rich Wales <ri...@mks.com>
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Avery Ray Colter

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Mar 5, 1995, 1:06:12 PM3/5/95
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Don't take this as Gospel, since I myself am not "one of you".
My wife is however, and she says the head of the Quorum of Twelve
is the traditional successor.

--
Avery Ray Colter AMA #656940, Honda `77 CB750K Pharmacy Tech Reg TCH10318
av...@ccnet.com VGL Mechwarrior "Elfcat" CPhA 1001310, PCT #136
(510) 671-8024 Fresenius USA, Walnut Creek

JLK

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Mar 5, 1995, 4:03:50 PM3/5/95
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In article <3jb7o2$4...@ia.mks.com>, ri...@mks.com (Rich Wales) writes:

> Bruce Leach <180102...@sscl.uwo.ca> wrote:
> The senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve -- i.e., the one who was
> set apart the longest time ago as a member of the Twelve -- is, by def-
> inition, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. At present, this
> person is Gordon B. Hinckley.

Excuse me. I don't recall that Hinkly has been set apart to be the President of
the Quorum of the Twelve. There are supposed to be keys that go along with that
position and there is supposed to be the Mormon exercise of so-called
priesthood power in this matter. Presently that hasn't happened. There is no
member of the Apostles that has been officially set apart. Not yet. There is
only and acting head.



> Note that Pres. Hinckley was President of the Twelve while Pres. Hunter
> was President of the Church.

When did this setting apart take place? Dates please.


> However, since Pres. Hinckley was a coun-
> selor in the First Presidency (and thus not serving as part of the
> Twelve), the senior apostle who =was= serving as part of the Twelve --
> Boyd K. Packer -- was =acting= President of the Twelve.

This is great. When you are a member of the twelve this person would have the
members believe that revelation no longer plays a role in setting apart a new
leader. This person would also have you believe that the position is determined
by age. I agree that this seems to be the current pattern. No revelation and
the abolishment of using the so-called Mormon priesthood to set apart a leader.
It all now depends on age.


> Sometime fairly soon (very likely next week), the Twelve will set apart
> Gordon B. Hinckley as President of the Church. His counselors will be
> set apart as well, and the First Presidency will exist once again. Once
> this has been done, the next apostle in seniority (Thomas S. Monson)
> will be President of the Twelve -- though if he is called once again to
> the First Presidency, Boyd K. Packer will serve as "Acting President"
> of the Twelve -- unless, that is, Pres. Packer is also called as a coun-
> selor in the First Presidency, in which case the =next= apostle in sen-
> iority (L. Tom Perry) will be Acting President of the Twelve.


What we have is a solid description of the Mormon abandonment of the claim of
using revelation to appoint a new Prophet, Apostle, and Seniority. This is a
clear description of a revelation free patriarchal-authoritarian-gerontocracy.
Imagine that. Mormon's abadoning the revelation based system to appoint leaders
and publishing that fact and all of the documentation on the network for all to
see.......It's amazing.



> As for what Pres. Hinckley's status is right now: As presiding officer
> over the presiding quorum, he is "the Prophet" (as we commonly use the
> term), in the sense that if the Lord has anything that needs to be
> revealed to the earthly leader of His Church, He will reveal it to
> Pres. Hinckley. He does not technically hold the title of "President
> of the Church" until the First Presidency is officially reconstituted,
> but that's the only difference.

Wrong. There is nobody officially appointed and set apart as the President of
the Quorum of the Twelve. At the time of the death of Benson Hunter was the
official President and he was sanctioned by the rituals that have historically
accompanied such a position.


> When the Twelve set apart Pres. Hinck-
> ley as President of the Church, they will simply be reaffirming the
> position which he already holds.


Actually they will simply be reafirming the reality of the Mormon gerontocracy
that establishes patriarchal authority on the basis of age according to your
description.



> In theory, the Quorum of the Twelve could decide to set someone else
> apart as President of the Church, instead of Pres. Hinckley. But this
> would not happen unless the Lord chose to reveal to His spokesman (i.e.,
> Pres. Hinckley himself) that someone else should be chosen.

Wrong. The Mormon doctrine is that the Quorum of the Twelve would have to act
as a unified body to sanction such a choice outside of Quorum of the Twelve. It
would not all depend on Hinkley's golden word. Suppose that Hinkly is too
lifted up in pride to listen to God (I know, Mormon's don't think this can
happen). What is he going to do? Or suppose the whole Quorum is too
lifted up in pride? Then what? Does this magical being go and talk to somebody
else? What if this concept you call God decided to talk to the Third President
of the Seventies because of an apostacy in the upper ranks? What then? The
Mormons deny that such an event could happen. So they now effectively rely on
the gerentocratal order of succession to power.



> Rich Wales <ri...@mks.com>
> Kitchener, Ontario, Canada


JLK


Bruce F. Webster

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Mar 6, 1995, 9:49:09 AM3/6/95
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In article <3jb7o2$4...@ia.mks.com> ri...@mks.com (Rich Wales) writes:
>
> If a stake, ward, or branch conference were held this Sunday, the proper
> thing to do would be to sustain Gordon B. Hinckley as "President of the
> Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" -- but =not= as "President of the Church"
> yet, because that title implies the existence of a First Presidency,
> and the First Presidency will not yet have been reorganized. (We went
> through this in my stake last spring, BTW, when one of our ward confer-
> ences occurred between Pres. Benson's passing and the reorganization of
> the First Presidency. Presumably other stakes did too.)
>

Which is exactly what happened in our stake conference yesterday....
..bruce..
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce F. Webster | Progress, far from consisting in change,
CTO, Pages Software Inc | depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot
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http://www.pages.com | it. -- George Santayana
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Louis Epstein

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Mar 6, 1995, 11:43:15 PM3/6/95
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180102...@sscl.uwo.ca wrote:
: I am a little vague on how the procedure goes for chosing the next
: head of our church. I thought it just went pretty much automatically to the
: senior apostle but people are saying differently here. Could someone post or
: e-mail me the procedure so I don't feel quite so lost. Thanks.

Who it is is well settled.There are formalities that are gone through,and
at the present time have yet to be gone through.

Kitson P. Kelly

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Mar 7, 1995, 2:17:21 PM3/7/95
to
In article <1995Mar5.130350@clstac> jlk...@csupomona.edu (JLK) writes:

>Excuse me. I don't recall that Hinkly has been set apart to be the President of
>the Quorum of the Twelve. There are supposed to be keys that go along with that
>position and there is supposed to be the Mormon exercise of so-called
>priesthood power in this matter. Presently that hasn't happened. There is no
>member of the Apostles that has been officially set apart. Not yet. There is
>only and acting head.

Actually he was JLK, I am not sure of the date but this all took place the
day before the annoncued it to the public at the death of President Benson.
The twelve go to the Salt Lake temple and go to one of the upper chambers and
all kneel down and pray. Then the Lord reveals the new Prophet (details not
quite clear exactly how, most likely one is suggested and then the Lord
confirms it). The new president prayfully selects his consulors and then they
Twelve together confirm them all and set them apart. Then the New President
of the Twelve is set apart and then if need be the acting President is set
apart.

I once was entreated to be at a talk given by Elder Ballard as an apostle. He
talked about his experience of becoming an apostle and yes he said he was set
apart.


>This is great. When you are a member of the twelve this person would have the
>members believe that revelation no longer plays a role in setting apart a new
>leader. This person would also have you believe that the position is determined
>by age. I agree that this seems to be the current pattern. No revelation and
>the abolishment of using the so-called Mormon priesthood to set apart a leader.
>It all now depends on age.

>What we have is a solid description of the Mormon abandonment of the claim of
>using revelation to appoint a new Prophet, Apostle, and Seniority. This is a
>clear description of a revelation free patriarchal-authoritarian-gerontocracy.
>Imagine that. Mormon's abadoning the revelation based system to appoint leaders
>and publishing that fact and all of the documentation on the network for all to
>see.......It's amazing.

>Wrong. There is nobody officially appointed and set apart as the President of


>the Quorum of the Twelve. At the time of the death of Benson Hunter was the
>official President and he was sanctioned by the rituals that have historically
>accompanied such a position.

>Actually they will simply be reafirming the reality of the Mormon gerontocracy
>that establishes patriarchal authority on the basis of age according to your
>description.

>Wrong. The Mormon doctrine is that the Quorum of the Twelve would have to act
>as a unified body to sanction such a choice outside of Quorum of the Twelve. It
>would not all depend on Hinkley's golden word. Suppose that Hinkly is too
>lifted up in pride to listen to God (I know, Mormon's don't think this can
>happen). What is he going to do? Or suppose the whole Quorum is too
>lifted up in pride? Then what? Does this magical being go and talk to somebody
>else? What if this concept you call God decided to talk to the Third President
>of the Seventies because of an apostacy in the upper ranks? What then? The
>Mormons deny that such an event could happen. So they now effectively rely on
>the gerentocratal order of succession to power.
>

Simply put the Lord would remove someone from the Presidency if they were
lifted up in pride. We are also told that we should also follow the majority
of the Twelve if there is no Prophet. If all twelve were to apostatize then
the Lord would remove them all.

Again, they do not rely on the age of senority. It is just the way the Lord
has always done it in this dispensation.

-kit...@primenet.com

Stacy L Whitman

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Mar 7, 1995, 2:38:52 PM3/7/95
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jlk...@csupomona.edu (JLK) writes:

>In article <3jb7o2$4...@ia.mks.com>, ri...@mks.com (Rich Wales) writes:
>> Bruce Leach <180102...@sscl.uwo.ca> wrote:
>> The senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve -- i.e., the one who was
>> set apart the longest time ago as a member of the Twelve -- is, by def-
>> inition, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. At present, this
>> person is Gordon B. Hinckley.

>Excuse me. I don't recall that Hinkly has been set apart to be the President of
>the Quorum of the Twelve. There are supposed to be keys that go along with that
>position and there is supposed to be the Mormon exercise of so-called
>priesthood power in this matter. Presently that hasn't happened. There is no
>member of the Apostles that has been officially set apart. Not yet. There is
>only and acting head.

Someone this previously; maybe you didn't see it. Gordon B. Hinkley was
set apart last year as President of the Quorum of the Twelve when President
Hunter was set apart as President of the Church. They referred you to
the Ensign in which it was done.

>This is great. When you are a member of the twelve this person would have the
>members believe that revelation no longer plays a role in setting apart a new
>leader. This person would also have you believe that the position is determined
>by age. I agree that this seems to be the current pattern. No revelation and

It has been stated before time and again. Position is *not* determined
by age. A member of the Twelve has the most seniority because he
was set apart/called earlier than others, not by how old the man is.

>Wrong. There is nobody officially appointed and set apart as the President of
>the Quorum of the Twelve. At the time of the death of Benson Hunter was the
>official President and he was sanctioned by the rituals that have historically
>accompanied such a position.

See above. Hinkley was set apart and is sustained at general conference
as the President of the Twelve.

Stacy Whitman
swhi...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu

Charles Marston

unread,
Mar 8, 1995, 12:49:52 AM3/8/95
to

J@(~> Note that Pres. Hinckley was President of the Twelve while Pres. Hunter
J@(~> was President of the Church.

J@(~When did this setting apart take place? Dates please.

He was set apart as President of the Quorum the same time
President Hunter was set apart as President.

J@(~This is great. When you are a member of the twelve this person would have th
J@(~members believe that revelation no longer plays a role in setting apart a ne
J@(~leader. This person would also have you believe that the position is determi
J@(~by age. I agree that this seems to be the current pattern. No revelation and
J@(~the abolishment of using the so-called Mormon priesthood to set apart a lead
J@(~It all now depends on age.

Again a mis-statement. Age has nothing to do with it. President
Monson will be set apart as the President of the Quorum and he
is among the four or five youngest members of the Quorum. He
has, however, served in the capacity as an Apostle longer than
anyone other than President Hinckley. It is seniority, not age.

Revelation and priesthood remains an integral part of the
process. Revelation is present in the calling of an Apostle and
the Priesthood power is necessary to set them apart.

It is the Lord's process and he has the final vote. If he does
not want someone in that position, they will not be there. He
certainly has the means to make sure they do not serve to the
point where they are the senior member.

J@(~Actually they will simply be reafirming the reality of the Mormon gerontocra
J@(~that establishes patriarchal authority on the basis of age according to your
J@(~description.

You have demonstrated with this post a lack of understanding of
both the teachings and the functions of the LDS Church. You have
been particularly vocal in decrying how the Church has treated
you. I am reminded of Americans who travel to other countries
and think if they break the law that the US Government will
somehow get them out of it. They misunderstand basic truths
within the system and when it doesn't work as their faulty
understanding thinks it should they turn bitter and decry the
Government for not doing what was wrongfully expected.

It seems your understanding of the Church is seriously flawed in
the same mannor. You think you know, but lack the wisdom and
understanding of true knowledge.

J@(~Wrong. The Mormon doctrine is that the Quorum of the Twelve would have to ac
J@(~as a unified body to sanction such a choice outside of Quorum of the Twelve.
J@(~would not all depend on Hinkley's golden word.

President Hinckley is the leader of the Church. With President
Hunter's last breath as prophet, President Hinckley took his
first. It is that simple.

If such a revelation was to be given it would come to he who now
presides - President Hinckley. If the Lord chose to reveal to
the whole Quorum he certainly could. But if he chose to reveal
only to the leader, President Hinckley, that would be
sufficient.

Suppose that Hinkly is too

J@(~lifted up in pride to listen to God (I know, Mormon's don't think this can
J@(~happen). What is he going to do? Or suppose the whole Quorum is too
J@(~lifted up in pride? Then what? Does this magical being go and talk to somebo
J@(~else? What if this concept you call God decided to talk to the Third Preside
J@(~of the Seventies because of an apostacy in the upper ranks? What then? The
J@(~Mormons deny that such an event could happen. So they now effectively rely o
J@(~the gerentocratal order of succession to power.

Were this the case, we would be in most dire straights. Of
course, one must wonder if the Thrid President of the Seventies"
was not the one lifted up in pride.

I suppose the same could be said of Moses. Was he and Aaron
lifted up in their pride, or the tribe of Levi, when the "third
president" of some lower group of leaders decided to build a
golden calf?

You say Mormons deny such an event could happen. You, obviously,
did not have faith in such a principle and left the Church. I
would suppose that if I lost faith in such a principle, I, too,
would leave the Church for there are much easier paths staked
out promising to lead me to God than the one I have chosen.

But my faith convinces me that the Church is being led as the
Lord desires. He is in charge. He has the people he wants in the
leadership positions they belong. He sustains them in their
callings. President Hunter's cancer was held at bay for a
decade. Serious surgery in which he should have died put him in
a wheel chair or walker. I believe he was sustained for his
nine-month calling. Had the Lord had a different objective, he
could have very easily, and very naturally, taken him leaving
President Hinckley to directly follow President Benson. My faith
tells me that the Lord sustained him in his calling and position
to fulfill a purpose. It is the Lord's Church led by the Lord in
his own way...through revelation or attrition, it is to the same
end.

* SLMR 2.1a * Chelsea: "Dad, meet my new boyfriend, Rush."

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