Free the Birdies
acruden
This is something that was simply passed onto me through e-mail. You
are welcome to read it, but if you do not agree with it, that is
completely your choice and I will not argue with you about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Free the Birdies"
By Lloyd Glenn, Mission Viejo, CA
I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak today regarding the topic
assigned me, the importance of Temple attendance.
“Brothers and Sisters, Throughout our lives we are blessed with
spiritual experiences, some of which are very sacred and confidential,
and others, although just as sacred, are meant to be shared. Last summer
my family had a spiritual experience that has had a lasting and profound
impact on us, one we feel must be shared. It's a message of love. It's a
message of regaining perspective, and restoring proper balance and
renewing priorities. In humility, I pray that I might, in relating this
story, give you a gift my little son, Brian, gave our family one warm
summer day last year. On July 22nd I was en route to Washington,
D.C. for a business trip. It was all so very ordinary until we landed
in Denver for a plane change. As I collected my belongings from the
overhead bin, an announcement was made for Mr. Lloyd Glenn to see the
United customer service representative immediately. I thought
nothing of this until I reached the door to leave the plane and I heard
a gentleman asking every male if they were Mr. Glenn. At this point I
knew something was wrong and my heart sank. When I got off the
plane a solemn-faced young man came toward me and said, "Mr. Glenn,
there has been an emergency at your home. I do not know what the
emergency is, or who is involved, but I will take you to a phone so you
can call the hospital."
My heart was now pounding, but the will to be calm took over. Woodenly,
I followed this stranger to a distant telephone where I called the
number he gave me for Mission Hospital. My call was put through to the
trauma center where I learned that my three-year-old son had been
trapped underneath the automatic garage door for several minutes, and
that when my wife had found him, he was dead. CPR had been performed by
a neighbor, who is a doctor, and the paramedics had continued that
treatment as Brian was transported to the hospital. By the time of my
call, Brian was revived and they believed he would live, but they did
not know how much damage had been done to his brain, nor to his heart.
They explained that the door had completely closed on his little
sternum right over his heart. He had been severely crushed. After
speaking with the medical staff, my wife informed me that our Bishop and
home teacher were there and were waiting for the doctors to give them
the go ahead to administer to Brian. She sounded worried, but not
hysterical, and I took comfort in her calmness.
The return flight seemed to last forever, but finally I arrived at the
hospital six hours after the garage door had come down. When I walked
into the intensive care unit, nothing could have prepared me to see my
little son laying so still on a great big bed with tubes and monitors
everywhere. He was on a respirator. I glanced at my wife who stood and
tried to give me a reassuring smile. It all seemed like a terrible
dream. I was filled in on all the details and given the guarded
prognosis. Brian was going to live, and the preliminary tests
indicated that his heart was okay- two miracles, in and of themselves.
But, only time would tell if his brain,received any damage.
Throughout these seemingly endless hours, my wife was calm. She told me
the Bishop had given a blessing so powerful and so reassuring that she
felt that Brian would eventually be all right. I hung on to her words
and faith like a lifeline.
All that night and all the next day Brian remained unconscious. It
seemed like forever since I had left for my business trip the daybefore.
Finally, at two o'clock that afternoon, our son regained consciousness
and
sat up uttering the most beautiful words I have ever heard spoken. He
said, "Daddy, hold me," as he reached for me with his little tiny arms.
By the next day he was pronounced as having no neurological or physical
deficits, and the story of his miraculous survival spread throughout
the hospital. You cannot imagine our gratitude and joy. As we took
Brian home we felt the unique reverence for life and love of ourHeavenly
Father that comes to those who brush death so closely. In the days that
followed there was a special spirit about our home. Our two older
children were much closer to their little brother. My wife and I were
closer to each other, and all of us were very close as a whole family.
Lifetook on a less stressful pace. Perspective seemed to be much
more focused, and balance much easier to gain and maintain. We felt
deeply blessed. Our gratitude was truly profound.
Almost a month later to the day of the accident, Brian awoke from his
afternoon nap and said, "Sit down, Mommy. I have something to tell
you."
At that time in his life, Brian usually spoke in small phrases, so to
say such a large sentence surprised my wife. She sat down with him on
the bed and he began this sacred and remarkable story.
"Do you remember when I got stuck under the garage door? Well, it was so
heavy and it hurt really bad. I called to you, but you couldn't hear me.
I started to cry, but then it hurt too bad. And then the 'birdies'
came."
"The 'birdies'?" my wife asked puzzled. "Yes," he replied. "The
'birdies' made a whooshing sound and flew into the garage. They took
care of me."
"They did?" she asked. "Yes," he said. "One of the birdies came and got
you. She came to tell you I got stuck under the door."
A sweet and reverent feeling filled the room. The spirit was so strong
and yet lighter than air. My wife realized that a three-year-old has no
concept of death and spirits, so he was referring to the beings who
came to help him from beyond the veil as "birdies" because they were up
in the air like birds that fly.
"What did the 'birdies' look like?" she asked. Brian answered,
"They were so beautiful. They were dressed in white, all white. Some of
them had on green and white, but some of them had on just white." My
wife thought this was intriguing because Brian had no clue what the
color green was.
"Did they say anything?" "Yes," he answered. "They told me the baby
would be all right." "The baby?" my wife asked, confused. And Brian
answered, "Yes, the baby laying on the garage floor." He went on, "You
came out and opened the garage door and ran to the baby. You told the
baby to stay and not leave."
My wife nearly collapsed upon hearing this, for she had indeed gone and
knelt beside Brian's body, and seeing his crushed chest and
unrecognizable features, and knowing he was already dead, she looked up
around her and whispered, "Don't leave us, Brian; please stay if you
can."
As she listened to Brian telling her the words she had spoken, she
realized that his spirit had left his body and was looking down from
above on this little lifeless form. Then what happened?" she asked. "We
went on a trip," he said, "far, far away." He grew agitated trying to
say things he didn't seem to have words for. My wife tried to calm and
comfort him, and let him know it would be okay. He struggled with
wanting to tell something that obviously was very important to him, but
finding the words was so diffrcult. Finally, his eyes alighted on the
picture of the Oakland temple that hangs in the room and he ran to it."I
went there!" he shouted. "There, Mommy," he pointed to the temple. "And
I went to other ones like this. There are lots of them. They are
everywhere, and I went to some of them with the birdies.' We flew so
fast up in the air.
"To which my wife said, "That's one of the temples." "YES! YES!" he
shouted. "I went to the temples." "They're so pretty, Mommy," he added.
"And there are lots and lots of 'birdies' in the temple. Lots of them
are in cages and they want to get out, but they can't by themselves.
They need us to let them out of the cages. "Mommy, I have to go to the
temple and let them out. They are so sad and they need me to let them
out. Mommy, you have to go there now and let them out. And Daddy
too. And everyone. We have to let them out of their cages."
My wife was stunned. Into her mind the sweet spirit enveloped her more
soundly, but with an urgency she had never before known. She thought of
the spirit world, the spirit prison to those who have not had saving
ordinances done, and she knew that such spirits were relying on us to do
these ordinances for them. She thought of how Brian had said some of
the 'birdies' were wearing green and white, and the significance of
that swept her with longing and understanding. Brian went on to
tell her that the 'birdies' told him that he had to come back and tell
everyone about the temples and the 'birdies' in their cages. He said
they brought him back to the house and that a big fire truck, a little
fire truck, and an ambulance were there. A man was bringing the baby out
on a white bed and he tried to tell the man that the baby would be okay,
but the man couldn't hear him. He said the 'birdies' told him he had to
go with the ambulance, but they would be near him. He said it was so
pretty there and so peaceful, and he didn't want to come back. And then
the bright light came. He said the light was so bright and so warm, and
he loved the bright light very much. Someone was in the bright light
and put their arms around him and told him, "I love you, but you have to
go back. You have to play baseball, tell everyone about the temples, and
slay the alligators." Then the person in the bright light kissed him and
waved bye bye. Brian got in the ambulance with two of the 'birdies.' The
ambulance doors closed after the people got in, and he said, "Then I saw
my beautiful, beautiful 'birdies' waving bye-bye. Then whoosh, the big
sound came and they went into the clouds."
The story went on for over an hour. He taught us that the 'birdies' are
always with us, but we don't see them because we look with our eyes, and
we don't hear them because we listen with our ears. But, they are
there, and you can only see them in here (he put his hand over his
heart). They whisper the things to help us do what's right because they
love us so much.”
Brian continued, stating, "I have a plan, Mommy. You have a plan. Daddy
has a plan. Everyone has a plan. We all must live our plan and keep our
promises. And the 'birdies' help us do that 'cause they love us so, so
much."
In the weeks that followed, he often came to us and told all or part of
it again and again. Always the story remained the same. The details were
never changed or out of order. A few times he added further bits of
information that clarified the message he had already delivered. It
never ceased to amaze us how he could tell such detail and speak beyond
his ability when he spoke of his "birdies." Everywhere he went, he
told total strangers that they had to go to the temple. Surprisingly, no
one ever looked at him strangely when he did this. Rather, they always
got a softened look on their face and smiled. Needless to say, we have
not been the same ever since that day, and I pray that we never will be.
My wife and I have gone to the temple repeatedly since then, and always
Brian is waiting to hear how many "birdies" we set free each time we go.
Brothers and Sisters, of all the messages Brian could have brought back,
he brought this one--We must go to the temple and free the "birdies." I
testify that the things I have shared with you today are true. They are
of sacred worth. They are of eternal consequence to us all and to the
spirits who await the work only we can do for them. May we all go to
the temple and free the "birdies" - for this truly is the Lord's work
and His glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
I leave you with this message in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.”
Mike's comments:
An interestingly amazing thing. Last Saturday afternoon, 21 Feb 98, it
took less than an hour from the time I pushed the "Send" button to
launch a computer fax to the Seattle Temple asking the temple presidency
if the (above) story could be verified, until I had my answer. The
story, as I originally received it, was located in the Seattle area.
Since it is such a powerful story, I thought someone at the temple would
know something about it. Within the hour of sending my fax, the Temple
Recorder called me back. He told me that Pres. Weiser of the temple
presidency had heard of the story and knew that Bro. Jay Ferrell, a
sealer in the temple, had done some investigation to verify it. I asked
for and was given Bro. Ferrell's phone number. Bro. Ferrell himself
answered my phone call before the phone rang twice. He and I talked for
the better part of 30 minutes during which he told me about his search
and its exciting results. After some excellent
detective work, he located this family and their phone number. They were
not from Seattle. They were living in Mission Viejo, CA when this event
took place. Bro. Glenn was on his Stake's High Council and what (you
have read above) is literally a transcript of one of his high council
talks. The family now lives in Lafayette, CA which is (in the)
neighborhood of the Oakland Temple. They moved there to act upon the
purpose and charge received from their son's experience. Bro. Ferrell
spent an emotional hour in a telephone conversation with Sister Glenn on
20 Sep 97. Sister Glenn verified and validated the event and the
experience of Brian and their family exactly as it is described. She
added more details than are presented in the talk. She spoke of the
event from her perspective and her feelings as a mother. Bro. Ferrell
said there were many tears shed on both ends of the line during that
hour they spent together. She mentioned the fact that the garage doors
was completely closed when she found Brian underneath it. She told him
about the unexplainable feelings she had when Brian quoted exactly what
she had said to his lifeless body. She told him how Brian as an infant
and toddler was always happy and laughing. After his experience, his
disposition completely changed to one of unhappiness and discontent. She
said that in just this past year they finally got their "happy" boy back
again. The change of that disposition was coincident with no longer
being able to remember anything at all about his experience.
Bro. Ferrell said when he mentioned this to one of his fellow sealers.
The associate said, "Now you know why babies can't talk. If they could,
they would spill the beans!" He also spoke of how he now understands
what he oftentimes sees in the eyes of infants and toddlers when he is
sealing them to their parents---it is a look of total comprehension of
what is taking place. He said he now understands what is happening in
3 Nephi 26:14.
As Bro. Glenn says in his talk, this story was meant to be shared. It
happened on 22 July 1993. It happened just as it is told. It is not just
another tale of "Mormon folklore." I forward it to you that "all may be
edified."
See you in the temple?
Mike
lpau...@nas.edu
In article <35485F8F...@uswest.net>#1/4,
acruden <acr...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
huge snip
>
> See you in the temple?
>
> Mike
>
>
this. And near-death/return-from-death stories, while heart-wrenching, are
not peculiar to Mormons. I was in Safeway this morning and saw a whole book
of them (not to mention the tabloids prove the existence of God this week).
(And how come a kid that age didn't know the color green?)
My dearly beloved once was desperate for $50 that his wicked spouse would not
pay for him on a ticket he deserved and received. He thought it
faith-inspiring that he got a check in the mail for the exact amount. I
thought it coincidental. He lectured me for weeks on "ask and ye shall
receive." I confess. It might only have SEEMED like weeks. In any case, it
did not convince me to join his church. (And I thought he ought to ask for a
job, anyway.)
It is nice to trot out the stories and anecdotes with babies and loved ones of
someone else and use them to prosyletize. I've got a bunch featuring my own
all-star cast. But I seem to be missing a religion to use them for. Oh well.
Just wait until we get the Church of Steve under way.
Regards,
Lee Paulson
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Ender
acruden wrote:
>
> This is something that was simply passed onto me through e-mail. You
> are welcome to read it, but if you do not agree with it, that is
> completely your choice and I will not argue with you about it.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Free the Birdies"
> By Lloyd Glenn, Mission Viejo, CA
> happened on 22 July 1993. It happened just as it is told. It is not just
> another tale of "Mormon folklore." I forward it to you that "all may be
> edified."
>
> See you in the temple?
>
> Mike
Thia story is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in my
life.
Anyone who wonders what Mormon Folklore is can hold this story up as a
prime example. I have heard at least three different vesrions of this
story while going to mormon seminary, primary, etc. it is always a
"heard it from a friend", "got it thru the mail etc: You will never
find anyone tell you that it actually happened to them. The funniest
thing is how these types of stories change as they make their way thru
the LDS rumor system. One of the ones I heard (that the person who told
it to me FULLY believed) involved the little boy meeting Christ in the
temple. How did he know it was Christ? Because when he saw the Mormon
picture of Jesus hanging in the Church building he said "Mom, thats the
man that took me to the temple!" Amazing isn't it Jesus does look just
like he does in the paintings!
Ender
Ender
Thomas R Baird wrote in message ...
>Too bad you aren't fully read. You should study more. This
>has been independently verified many times. You should
>study more and criticize less.
>
>Thomas Baird
><snip - for bad language>
What kind of stuff would I have to read to be "fully read" in your
opinion , Grimms fairy tales?.
Maybe you should post these "verifiable independents"
Ender
mrsg...@webtv.net
See me in the temple? Sorry, no, don't have a recommend these days.
But after reading that story, I don't know why anyone would go. The
very idea of all those "birdies," being held hostage in their little
spirit cages, their bony fingers reaching through the bars, staring with
hollow eyes and intoning everlastingly, "save me, save me." Nope, the
temple experience was macabre enough already.
I'm going out to feed the duckies.
Mrs. Garcia
Steve O'Neil
I have had this story on my website for quite some time and recently I
was able to correspond with Lloyd Glenn. He has had a lot of people
contacting him to verify the story as you could imagine. If anyone
does want to find out about the story you can contact the Church Head
offices who can verify it. Unlike a lot of the other stories I've come
accross it's definitely not an urban legend. This story was about real
people and I personally believe it's a true story, especially after
hearing it from the source.
Steve O'Neil
Read my post. I've heard this story from the post and it can be
verified by the church HQ offices. Unlike most of the ones you may
hear, this one is legitimate.
Ender
Steve O'Neil wrote in message <354a09e8...@news.iinet.net.au>...
Good one, why do you think I would call the Church Office Headquarters
and ask them if this story is true? Those people at the Church Office
building also will tell me that the Book of Mormon is true and that if
I was a righteous person I would spend my time getting dunked under the
water for dead people.
I can believe the part about a three-year old kid getting crushed
under the door but some of these other details are obviously
embellishment ( that LIES to some of us)
does this statement make any sense to you? how does the kid know they
were wearing green if he doesn't know what green is?
"They were so beautiful. They were dressed in white, all white. Some
of
them had on green and white, but some of them had on just white." My
wife thought this was intriguing because Brian had no clue what the
color green was."
." Finally, his eyes alighted on the
picture of the Oakland temple that hangs in the room and he ran to
it."I
went there!" he shouted. "There, Mommy," he pointed to the temple. "And
I went to other ones like this. There are lots of them. They are
everywhere, and I went to some of them with the birdies.' We flew so
fast up in the air.
This is another common element of this type of Mormon Myth, sometimes
it's a picture of the temple, sometimes Jesus, or sometimes a dead
relative.
The story went on for over an hour. He taught us that the 'birdies'
are
always with us, but we don't see them because we look with our eyes,
and
we don't hear them because we listen with our ears. But, they are
there, and you can only see them in here (he put his hand over his
heart). They whisper the things to help us do what's right because they
love us so much.”
Brian continued, stating, "I have a plan, Mommy. You have a plan. Daddy
has a plan. Everyone has a plan. We all must live our plan and keep our
promises. And the 'birdies' help us do that 'cause they love us so, so
much."
give me a break
When was the last time a three year old lectured you for an hour on the
afterlife?
They should send this kid on his mission right away.
I suspect that this story may be partially true, but it has enough
typical mormon myth elements thrown in that it is effectively a LIE.
Maybe folks have good intentions when they embellish a story like this
but in reality in turns the story into bullshit, just like I said in my
first post. You say that you talked to the guy who wrote this
story---did he tell it to you exactly as it is here? Or is what we have
here Mormon Propaganda?
|Ender
Steve O'Neil
On Fri, 1 May 1998 14:25:59 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
> You say that you talked to the guy who wrote this
>story---did he tell it to you exactly as it is here? Or is what we have
>here Mormon Propaganda?
It sounds like you're so cynical that nothing short of a personal
visitation from God would convince you so there's really not much
point in me trying (perhaps even God couldn't do it). That wasn't the
point of my post anyway. I was simply pointing out that the story is
not a mormon myth. The way it was told on this newsgroup is the same
as it was originally told. It wasn't embellished as you suggest. It
was the original story. Your question is really whether or not the
origina story is true. I believe it is. Since you obviously don't
believe the church is true anyway it's no surprise that you so readily
pass off any church related story as a myth. Brother Glenn's original
purpose in relating the experience was I believe to uplift those who
have already accept the gospel, not convince those who haven't.
Ender
Steve O'Neil wrote in message <354b3a40...@news.iinet.net.au>...
>On Fri, 1 May 1998 14:25:59 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>
>> You say that you talked to the guy who wrote this
>>story---did he tell it to you exactly as it is here? Or is what we
have
>>here Mormon Propaganda?
>
>It sounds like you're so cynical that nothing short of a personal
>visitation from God would convince you so there's really not much
>point in me trying (perhaps even God couldn't do it). That wasn't the
>point of my post anyway. I was simply pointing out that the story is
>not a Mormon myth. The way it was told on this newsgroup is the same
>as it was originally told. It wasn't embellished as you suggest. It
>was the original story. Your question is really whether or not the
>origina story is true. I believe it is. Since you obviously don't
>believe the church is true anyway it's no surprise that you so readily
>pass off any church related story as a myth. Brother Glenn's original
>purpose in relating the experience was I believe to uplift those who
>have already accept the gospel, not convince those who haven't.
If you can't see the obvious flaws in this story then I feel sorry for
you. Do you really believe that the temple is full of spirits trapped
in little cages? Is that the Mormon Doctrine concerning where bad folks
go when they die? (cages in the temple?)
This whole story and your reply to it shows some interesting things
about LDS belief. You guys will ask for references on every little
piece of evidence that casts bad light on your Church and then an
obvious Mormon myth like this comes along and you swallow it hook line
and sinker, then you accuse me of being a cynic because I won't believe
it without any evidence! It just goes to show you the amazing tricks
the brain will do when it wants to believe something bad enough. What
is your definition of a lie Steve?
If 50% of this story is true is it a lie or a truth? If it is only 50%
accurate to the original story would you still tell it to your friends
as a true story? What if 89% of it is true, is it still a lie? I spent
three years in the Church seminary program and these Mormon myths were
thrown around like crazy. The average LDS seminary teacher has no
problem telling an unverified LDS myth as long as it is seen as
faith-promoting. The most amusing part of all this is where you ask me
to go to ask if this is a true story-- The Church Office Building!
leaders in churning out half truths and propaganda for over one-hundred
years!
Ender
Wilford Martin
Can't swallow the truth eh?
Ender
Wilford Martin wrote in message
<6ifr86$80s$1...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Can't swallow the truth eh?
Lets take a look at "the truth" as spelled out by this story.
1.Angels look like bird, but wear white, and green/white temple
clothing.
2 . It is possible for a three year old boy who has no concept of the
color green to recognize the color and semantically link the color to a
word.
3. Angels make "whooshing sounds"
4.There are birdlike angels trapped inside of cages at every LDS
temple.
5. a three year old boy is capable of revealing more about angels and
temples than the last three LDS Prophets put together.
6. conveniently the boy no longer remembers ANY of this happening, this
after giving an amazing hour long sermon about temples and Angels to
his parents.
Is this what you believe Martin? Do you believe that Angels wear the
green apron from the endowment ceremony? Do you believe that when
people die they go directly to cages inside of LDS temples unless they
are already baptized and given their endowments? This is certainly a
startling revaluation if this story is true. Why do you think that God
decided to reveal this "Angels in cages doctrine" through a little boy
and not through his Prophet.
We have got LDS folks on this newsgroup saying that most of what
Bruce Mckonkie has said is not really true as far as Mormon beliefs
go, despite the fact that he was called of God to act as a
representative in the General Authorities. The blacks/mark of Cain
Doctrine is being called into question despite many LDS authorities
past and present indicating that this is so. The Indians/Lamanite
theory is being called into question despite the Prophet Kimball's
statements on the subject, and yet you are all ready to believe that a
three year old boy had a vision of caged up Angels in the temples. Do
you know what would have happened if I had started a post called
"Mormon beliefs/Angels in cages" on this newsgroup? I would have had a
bunch of replies calling for references, telling me that if this can't
be found in the scripture it is not doctrine, saying that humans make
mistakes and this person wasn't speaking as an ordained Prophet of the
LDS church, etc, etc, etc,
if you stop to think about it I am sure that you will realize that this
bit of "Mormon Mythology" is probably more detrimental to LDS beliefs
than beneficial. You all tell me that YES this is a true story, if you
don't believe it you must be cynical, unspiritual, or unwilling to face
the truth. I would like to hear what you would say to the next LDS
investigator who asks you if LDS people believe that Angels are locked
up in cages in the temple. Your story would change then, well yeah you
might say thats not Doctrine thats just a story, blah blah blah...well
is it TRUE?, do you REALLY believe this story enough to teach your
children that Angels wear endowment clothing and that bad ones get
locked up? I love the way that the story tells us that the boy no
longer remembers any of this , effectively making the story
UNVERIFIABLE.
Ender
TheJordan6
>> See you in the temple?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>like
>this.
Yeah.........
Fatima, anyone? :-)
Randy J.
KBPOSTALC9
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Free the Birdies
<snip the great post>
Thanks for posting it Mike.
Two of the best books I have read on near death experiences (NDEs) are
"Glimpses of Eternity" and it's sequel "Echos from Eternity" by Arvin Gibson.
It is a good read on one LDS man's perspective/interpretation of NDE's in
relation to LDS beliefs.
Check them out if the topic interests you.
Karl
dmor...@midwest.net
> As Bro. Glenn says in his talk, this story was meant to be shared. It
> happened on 22 July 1993. It happened just as it is told. It is not just
> another tale of "Mormon folklore." I forward it to you that "all may be
> edified."
>
> See you in the temple?
>
It is a beautiful story. It reminds me of the story told in the book
"Embraced by The Light". However if it were true, the boy and the
whole family would be ex-communicated. Therefore, we can be certain
that it is just another Paul Dunn special.
Me, bitter? What reason do I have to be bitter?
Nomad
http://scribers.midwest.net/dmorriso/
I testify that every jot and tittle of Nephi's prophecies and also Joseph
Smith's prophecies fortelling of the wickedness of the Leadership of the
Lord's Church is being fulfilled. That the persecution of the humble and
righteous saints who turn to Christ for their salvation has began. Now begins
the prophecy that the saints will be sorely tested as to whether they will
follow the Lord directly through the Holy Spirit or follow a false prophet who
dances to Satan's drum.
Steve O'Neil
On Sat, 2 May 1998 13:17:41 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>If you can't see the obvious flaws in this story then I feel sorry for
>you. Do you really believe that the temple is full of spirits trapped
>in little cages? Is that the Mormon Doctrine concerning where bad folks
>go when they die? (cages in the temple?)
That was a three year old's interpretation of it. I guess his
interpretation may have been a bit over your head.
>This whole story and your reply to it shows some interesting things
>about LDS belief. You guys will ask for references on every little
>piece of evidence that casts bad light on your Church and then an
>obvious Mormon myth like this comes along and you swallow it hook line
>and sinker, then you accuse me of being a cynic because I won't believe
>it without any evidence! It just goes to show you the amazing tricks
>the brain will do when it wants to believe something bad enough. What
>is your definition of a lie Steve?
Most of my posts on the subject have been pointing you to references
verifying the story. If you won't even take notice of the references
that are given the quit whinging about the lack of them. That to me is
rather dishonest. Your so-called flaws in the story only exist when
it's twisted the way it was in your earlier post.
You ask for proof that the story was true. It can't be prooved any
more than you can dis-proove it.
Wilford Martin
I didn't know Satan had drums?
Wilford Martin
My gripe is that anything that is reported to be a spiritual experience
by an LDS member is in your opinion folklore and myth.
1. Angels can wear anything they want. They are not bound by your
definition of what they can wear.
2. Children aren't colorblind.
3. Where does it say angels can't make swooshing sounds???
4. There are no birdlike angels in the temples. What the boy saw was
maybe a spiritual experience. Don't dismiss as Mormon myths.
I don't know know if its true or not, but neither do you. What does it
mean, just leave it to god then.
Ender
Wilford Martin wrote in message
<6iiaps$b9q$1...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
You may not know whether this story is true or not (you sounded
pretty certain earlier) but I know that this is a Mormon Myth. A
version of this story is making the rounds of Rexburg right now. If I
can find the source of this story it will be a first, as most Urban
Myths have never been traced to an origin. Don't worry I will keep
you informed on my progress. Of course, if I find out this story is
true, I am going to go straight down to the Temple and let these
whooshing angel/birds out of their metaphorical cages. I frankly
can't believe so many LDS folks find this story of holy entrapment to
be so uplifting, the more I think about it the more it sounds like a
Stephen King story to me.
Ender
PACumeni9
> 2 . It is possible for a three year old boy who has no concept of the
>color green to recognize the color and semantically link the color to a
>word.
I know _lots_ of three-year-olds who know and recognize colors by name. My own
3 year old son knows every primary color, and a handful of secondary colors by
name.
PACumeni9, who would tend to go along with your skepticism on the larger issue,
however.
For a look at how some of the best Tanner research holds up, come see a
critique of their article which attempts to deal with the astounding Arabian
discoveries supporting the Book of Mormon.
http://members.aol.com/PACumeni9/aMormonResponds.html
Ender
PACumeni9 wrote in message
<199805042146...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>> 2 . It is possible for a three year old boy who has no concept of
the
>>color green to recognize the color and semantically link the color
to a
>>word.
>
>I know _lots_ of three-year-olds who know and recognize colors by
name. My own
>3 year old son knows every primary color, and a handful of secondary
colors by
>name.
>
And you people wonder why it is so fun to troll on this newsgroup.
Is it just me or is there a growing population of clueless people on
this group who don't bother to find out what a post is about before
replying to it, or are unable to recognize the most blatant satire.
The story "Free the birdies" indicated that the boy did not know of
the color green and was yet still able to use it as a descriptive
term. It was a minor error in this error laden urban myth.
Ender
Steve O'Neil
On Mon, 4 May 1998 18:54:12 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
> And you people wonder why it is so fun to troll on this newsgroup.
>Is it just me or is there a growing population of clueless people on
>this group who don't bother to find out what a post is about before
>replying to it, or are unable to recognize the most blatant satire.
>The story "Free the birdies" indicated that the boy did not know of
>the color green and was yet still able to use it as a descriptive
>term. It was a minor error in this error laden urban myth.
I know you don't believe the story but I think the use of the term
Urban Myth is a little misleading. To me this impies a story that has
evolved chinese whispers style into something quite improbable.
Whether or nor this story is true, it is pretty much accurate and
straight from the source as I mentioned before.
Ender
Steve O'Neil wrote in message
<354f4c83...@news.iinet.net.au>...
Steve,
You posted that this story can be verified by calling the Church
Office Building, anyone who believes that this is true can call the
Church Office building for the enjoyable experience of being put on
hold for fifteen minutes while the people there try to figure out who
to pass the buck to. Your first source (Church Office Building),
knows nothing about this story. I do not know what your motivation
is, but I think you need to examine just what kind of evidence it
takes for you to believe something. i will keep researching this
story, but I grow more convinced that it fits the definition of urban
myth quite accurately. The fact that choose to imply that the Church
Office building will verify the story (FALSE) just shows that this
story has grown a little just passing through your hands.
Ender
Ender
Craig Anderson
On Sat, 2 May 1998 13:17:41 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>If you can't see the obvious flaws in this story then I feel sorry for
>you.
The fact is, the story has been independently verified as true. Whether
it was told accurately is another issue altogether. But the facts are
that the family did indeed have the garage door accident with their son,
and that has been verified.
You seem to have blinded your mind to even the possibility that the
story could be real simply because it happened to an LDS family. Sad.
>This whole story and your reply to it shows some interesting things
>about LDS belief. You guys will ask for references on every little
>piece of evidence that casts bad light on your Church and then an
>obvious Mormon myth like this comes along and you swallow it hook line
>and sinker, then you accuse me of being a cynic because I won't believe
>it without any evidence!
I recommend you contact Laura Maery Gold, who is an author and who
independently verified the story. Her email address is:
ink...@jersey.net. Ask her what she found out when she talked to the
family.
Then perhaps we can start to see a little less cynicism and perhaps a
little more civility rather than just the blind hostility you often
portray.
Craig
---------------------------------------------------
Remove the 'X' from brigadoon when replying by mail
Ender
Craig Anderson wrote in message
<354f800c....@news.asymetrix.com>...
>On Sat, 2 May 1998 13:17:41 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>
>>If you can't see the obvious flaws in this story then I feel sorry
for
>>you.
>
>The fact is, the story has been independently verified as true.
Whether
>it was told accurately is another issue altogether. But the facts
are
>that the family did indeed have the garage door accident with their
son,
>and that has been verified.
All I see regarding this topic are Mormons heading for the hills and
covering their tracks, I have whittled this down from people
insisting that this is "True" story, to maybe true, to (your example)
,part if it may be true. All this shows is how different people
interpret truth. Do you think this story is true or not? If you do
not think is true then why are you defending it? If you think it is
true then what do you think we should do about those poor Angels who
are incarcerated in the Temple? Was the original story an
emalishment? (if so then I don't think it fits the catagory of true
story). I really wan't to hear what you think Craig, is the story
true or not? Are there Angels trapped in the temple. You have
already admitted that the only part that you know is true is that a
Garage door came down on someones kid, I could believe that, It is
the other obvious additions to the story that I called bullshit on.
>You seem to have blinded your mind to even the possibility that the
>story could be real simply because it happened to an LDS family.
Sad.
I do not believe this story because I am familiar with the syntax ,
structure, and patterns of distrubutation of urban myths. I also find
the story of Angels trapped in the temple to be completly absurd.
What I find sad is the number of mormons who have jumped in to
critisize me only because I have looked at this story in a critical
light, to them I ask the same question, if this story is true then
your Church is holding Angels hostage in the temple, does this make
you feel good about your religion?
>I recommend you contact Laura Maery Gold, who is an author and who
>independently verified the story. Her email address is:
>ink...@jersey.net. Ask her what she found out when she talked to
the
>family.
>
>Then perhaps we can start to see a little less cynicism and perhaps
a
>little more civility rather than just the blind hostility you often
>portray.
>
>Craig
Thanks for the reference. Don't cross your fingers hoping for me to
act civil though.
Ender
tad
<Big Snippage>
Ender wrote in message <6iok8o$8l0$1...@supernews.com>...
>I do not believe this story because I am familiar with the syntax ,
>structure, and patterns of distrubutation of urban myths. I also find
>the story of Angels trapped in the temple to be completly absurd.
>What I find sad is the number of mormons who have jumped in to
>critisize me only because I have looked at this story in a critical
>light, to them I ask the same question, if this story is true then
>your Church is holding Angels hostage in the temple, does this make
>you feel good about your religion?
I can understand and except your refusal to believe this story. (That free
agency thingy again)
But, I will 'enlighten' you on an error. The temples that the child was
speaking about were not the temples that are on the earth, but the temples
in Heaven ("My Fathers house has many mansions"). The child used the word
temples because of his mothers prompting on a word he was stumbling on. The
CoJCoLDS does not hold anyone spirit or otherwise captive in the Temples.
And yes, I feel great about my religion, knowing that we are helping in
freeing those trapped angels.
Steve O'Neil
On Tue, 5 May 1998 13:26:29 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>You posted that this story can be verified by calling the Church
>Office Building, anyone who believes that this is true can call the
>Church Office building for the enjoyable experience of being put on
>hold for fifteen minutes while the people there try to figure out who
>to pass the buck to. Your first source (Church Office Building),
>knows nothing about this story. I do not know what your motivation
>is, but I think you need to examine just what kind of evidence it
>takes for you to believe something. i will keep researching this
>story, but I grow more convinced that it fits the definition of urban
>myth quite accurately. The fact that choose to imply that the Church
>Office building will verify the story (FALSE) just shows that this
>story has grown a little just passing through your hands.
You really have no idea. You haven't called the church offices. They
will verify it. You're really doing yourself no credit by taking
everyone's words out of context the way you have been.
Ender
tad wrote in message <6iq9fl$766$1...@brokaw.wa.com>...
>I can understand and except your refusal to believe this story.
(That free
>agency thingy again)
>But, I will 'enlighten' you on an error. The temples that the child
was
>speaking about were not the temples that are on the earth, but the
temples
>in Heaven ("My Fathers house has many mansions"). The child used
the word
>temples because of his mothers prompting on a word he was stumbling
on. The
>CoJCoLDS does not hold anyone spirit or otherwise captive in the
Temples.
>And yes, I feel great about my religion, knowing that we are helping
in
>freeing those trapped angels.
>
Read the story again Tad, the boy mentions the temple after seeing a
picture of one. Your statement shows how this story has grown a
little more through your telling of it. In your version, now the boy
is seeing Temples in heaven, a detail that was not in the story as
presented in this post. Your version also suggests that the story is
not true in the form it is presented in, the exact point I have been
trying to make.
Ender
>
David Bowie
Steve O'Neil (son...@iinet.net.au) wrote:
: You really have no idea. You haven't called the church offices. They
: will verify it. You're really doing yourself no credit by taking
: everyone's words out of context the way you have been.
Fine--what extension should we ask for?
David, who recognizes the switchboard operators wouldn't know
--
David Bowie dbo...@mail.sas.upenn.edu
PhD student in Sociolinguistics http://babel.ling.upenn.edu/~bowie
And yes, that actually *is* my real name!
Nicholas S. Literski
"Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>Read the story again Tad, the boy mentions the temple after seeing a
>picture of one. Your statement shows how this story has grown a
>little more through your telling of it. In your version, now the boy
>is seeing Temples in heaven, a detail that was not in the story as
>presented in this post. Your version also suggests that the story is
>not true in the form it is presented in, the exact point I have been
>trying to make.
>Ender
Although the story is very nice in its way, what I've always found
very troubling is the use of the term, "birdies." I honestly doubt
the story is true, because we know from latter-day revelation (Joseph
Smith, David O. McKay, Spencer W. Kimball, for starters) that angels
do NOT have wings. The wings described in scripture are symbolic of
their "power to move, to act, etc."
If this boy actually saw spirits or angels in the context he
described, why on earth would they have wings? Given his use of the
word "birdies," I can only assume that he claimed to have seen winged
beings of some type, and this simply doesn't square with what we know
about angels and spirits.
Nick Literski
Ender
For anyone who is interested in my efforts to verify the "Free
the Birdies" urban myth:
After a week of calling the Church Office Building and being shuffled
from office to office I finally received a call from the guy there
who runs the LDS websight. He said that he could not verify the story
and pointed out that it is not included on the official LDS website
or in any other LDS publication so there was no one at the Church
Office Building who would verify this story, he did not suggest any
other people who could verify it. DEAD END
The other solid lead I was given (ink...@jersey.net) also yielded
no information.
One can only wonder about the mental stability of people who give
out false information of this sort.
Ender
Craig Olson
Ender wrote:
>
> For anyone who is interested in my efforts to verify the "Free
> the Birdies" urban myth:
>
> no one at the Church Office Building [...] would verify this story,
> [or] suggest any other people who could verify it. DEAD END
I suppose it might be a question of how or where one looks. The
story behind the story of Free the Birdies is given a rather
complete treatment at LauraMaery Gold's web site (LauraMaery is
the person behind the address of ink...@jersey.net, so you were
looking in the right place.) Try:
http://www.jersey.net/~inkwell/testfrec.htm
> One can only wonder about the mental stability of people who give
> out false information of this sort.
I suppose.
Craig, who can only wonder about those who use lack of evidence as
proof of the non-existence of evidence.
wilt
Craig Olson wrote:
Thank you!! For such a beautiful and wonderful story!!
And thanks to you Ender - if you had not posted something dealing with
your disbelief and riducule of those who *do* believe - I would likely
not have come across this. . . Ender, the faith builder??
wilt
Steve O'Neil
On Thu, 14 May 1998 14:07:43 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>
> For anyone who is interested in my efforts to verify the "Free
>the Birdies" urban myth:
The only reason I won't give out contact details of the person who
originally told the story is that he was getting swamped with requests
from people who wanted to verify the story. It's a bit steep to expect
one person to answer the queries of every person on the internet who's
curious about the story's origin.
Plenty of us on here have verified it. If that's not enough and you
want to consider us as liars then that's fine. I could care less. I've
heard it from the source. I honestly don't think your attitude would
be any different if anyone in church offices had been able to verify
it for you anyway. If I'm being unfair in saying that then I apologise
but that's the impression I get from your posts.
Ender
wilt wrote in message <355C81...@erols.com>...
>Craig Olson wrote:
>
>Thank you!! For such a beautiful and wonderful story!!
>
>And thanks to you Ender - if you had not posted something dealing
with
>your disbelief and riducule of those who *do* believe - I would
likely
>not have come across this. . . Ender, the faith builder??
>
>wilt
So Wilt, you believe that this story is TRUE? If you do believe this
story is true then do you feel like it should be shared with the
world that the Mormons Believe that they have Angels locked up in the
Temple? or is this a "meat" doctrine?
After a couple of months on this Newsgroup I have worked through much
of my teenage angst I have felt toward the LDS church. Now I feel the
feelings of anger blossoming into pity. You are like little kids who
simply do not have the tools necessary for critical thinking. The
weakness of your minds and your desire to fit in somewhere with
"decent" people blinds you to the properties of truth. I do not know
what THE TRUTH is, but I do know a lie when I see one. The TRUTH
concerning this story and the (general) LDS reaction to it is very
interesting, illustrating the way that you people will believe just
about anything. But wait I am overgeneralizing again. I have talked
to someone in the Stake Presidency about this(my father). He also is
concerned with gullible Mormons who spread urban myths around the
Church. He suggests that LDS people have plenty of doctrine they can
work on without spreading lies about Angels being locked in the
Temple. This story has gone word of mouth through every ward in this
town, none consider the implications of the story, Many believe it
only because it made them feel all warm an fuzzy inside.
My internet account at the School is being shut down so I will not
be able to practice my faith building activities here for a little
while. Believe me I am not going to let this birdies story go. I
think that the story brings out many of the odd and disturbing
aspects of the LDS religion. It also works on the principal that few
people are actually going to call Glenn and talk to him about it. One
thing I can tell you, the Church Office building will have nothing to
do with this story.
Ender
wilt
Ender wrote:
>
> wilt wrote in message <355C81...@erols.com>...
> >Craig Olson wrote:
> >
> >Thank you!! For such a beautiful and wonderful story!!
> >
> >And thanks to you Ender - if you had not posted something dealing
> with
> >your disbelief and riducule of those who *do* believe - I would
> likely
> >not have come across this. . . Ender, the faith builder??
> >
> >wilt
>
> So Wilt, you believe that this story is TRUE? If you do believe this
> story is true then do you feel like it should be shared with the
> world that the Mormons Believe that they have Angels locked up in the
> Temple? or is this a "meat" doctrine?
Easy answer - I believe the wishes of the family should be respected.
And if you take the angels in a cage literally, then more power to the
three-year-old which would then be you. . . "figurative" and the use of
terms familiar to a particular person is a bit beyond your grasp?
> After a couple of months on this Newsgroup I have worked through much
> of my teenage angst I have felt toward the LDS church. Now I feel the
> feelings of anger blossoming into pity.
Too bad, since your anger/pity (pitiful anger??) does nothing to help you
see anything of reality. . . only that which you have already decided to
be. . . whatever.
> You are like little kids who
> simply do not have the tools necessary for critical thinking.
Oh, you mean being like little children? Sounds reasonable, since the
Lord had some advice on that. . . and folks have pointed out the
"teachable" nature of children. Without preconceptions - willing to
learn.
>The
> weakness of your minds and your desire to fit in somewhere with
> "decent" people blinds you to the properties of truth. I do not know
> what THE TRUTH is, but I do know a lie when I see one. The TRUTH
> concerning this story
Let's see if we have this correct now. . . You don't know what the truth
is, though you know a lie. . . (living one, are you?) Then you go
forward with the comment of "The TRUTH concerning this story. . ." when
you just commented on not KNOWING the truth. . . Consistency is not your
middle name, huh?
Now keep telling yourself all about the weak minds of those who dare to
disagree with you. So far you look to be a minority of one. . .
> and the (general) LDS reaction to it is very
> interesting, illustrating the way that you people will believe just
> about anything. But wait I am overgeneralizing again. I have talked
> to someone in the Stake Presidency about this(my father). He also is
> concerned with gullible Mormons who spread urban myths around the
> Church. He suggests that LDS people have plenty of doctrine they can
> work on without spreading lies about Angels being locked in the
> Temple.
Considering the way you likely told the story, it's no wonder he would
have trouble with the story. . . seeing as it probably had little if any
in common WITH the story. . .
> This story has gone word of mouth through every ward in this
> town, none consider the implications of the story, Many believe it
> only because it made them feel all warm an fuzzy inside.
You might remember some good feelings inside. . . the Spirit and all
that? Or is that another lie to you?
> My internet account at the School is being shut down so I will not
> be able to practice my faith building activities here for a little
> while. Believe me I am not going to let this birdies story go. I
> think that the story brings out many of the odd and disturbing
> aspects of the LDS religion. It also works on the principal that few
> people are actually going to call Glenn and talk to him about it. One
> thing I can tell you, the Church Office building will have nothing to
> do with this story.
Good luck - any connection with your school account being shut down and
your propensity to get all upset with those weak-minded folks who dare to
disagree with your self-important. . . self?
wilt
> Ender
Nicholas S. Literski
Craig Olson <c...@netins.net> wrote:
>Craig, who can only wonder about those who use lack of evidence as
>proof of the non-existence of evidence.
How about those of us who use the fact that it's inconsistent with
revealed doctrine as evidence that it's a nice story, but made up?
Nick Literski
mrsg...@webtv.net
Thanks, Ender, for the update on this cliche-ridden little horror story.
It's interesting that the Church office building is pretending the story
doesn't exist. At least they have the common sense to be embarrassed by
it (unlike some of the posters on ARM!). There is no verification for
this story, though, since the only person who could verify it is the
child, and he has lost his memory of it -- how convenient -- kind of
like golden plates being taken back by the birdie -- I mean angel.
Maybe the Glenn family exists, maybe the child was hit by the garage
door, that doesn't verify the near death experience, which if there was
any experience, it was relayed second-hand by his mother to his father,
then to others, gaining overlays of mormonspeak, pseudo-spirituality,
and morbidity all the way.
Enjoy your school/ARM vacation. and keep on using your mind like God
intended.
Mrs. Garcia
Craig Olson
I was only addressing the silly proposition that absence of proof
constitutes proof of absence. The the truth (or absence of truth)
contained in the story under discussion wasn't the subject of my
post.
Craig, who figured this for simply another Mormon UL upon first
encounter with the story. We may need a new category for this
type of mythos.
Ender
Steve O'Neil wrote in message
<355c9612...@news.iinet.net.au>...
Steve.
Are there Angels locked in cages inside the Temple? if not then the
story is false and you are not quite a liar but more a spreader of
falsehoods who does not know any better. If you want to take the
slippery eel way out and say that the story is metaphorical then the
story is still not TRUE , it is a parable. Also if you decide that it
is true only as far as it is interpreted correctly then my
interpretation is as good as yours and the story is FALSE.
Ender
Steve O'Neil
On Thu, 21 May 1998 00:24:32 -0600, "Ender" <webs...@isu.edu> wrote:
>Steve.
>Are there Angels locked in cages inside the Temple? if not then the
>story is false and you are not quite a liar but more a spreader of
>falsehoods who does not know any better. If you want to take the
>slippery eel way out and say that the story is metaphorical then the
>story is still not TRUE , it is a parable. Also if you decide that it
>is true only as far as it is interpreted correctly then my
>interpretation is as good as yours and the story is FALSE.
>Ender
You're completely failing to realise that the story was telling the
interpretation of a three year old who obviously didn't understand
everything that was happenning. No there are not angels locked in
prison in the temple. There are however numerous departed souls eager
to see their ordinances performed in the temple. I have been to the
temple and felt the presence of some of them as I have performed
ordinances on their behalf thus making it possible for them to be
'free'.
Stephen O'Neil
son...@iinet.net.au
http://www.iinet.net.au/~soneil/lds/index.html
Hobbs402
Ender --
Typical anti approach. In your zeal to find something, anything, wrong with the
LDS church, you lower yourself to this.
What a shame.
Ender
Hobbs402 wrote in message
<199805250257...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Ladies and Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that there is yet one
more Mormon out there who believes that his Church has Angels locked
inside of the Temple. Aren't they a peculiar people?
Ender