FLDS incest causes horrible birth defects
John Manning
~~~ By the late 1990s, Tarby and his team had discovered fumarase
deficiency was occurring in the greatest concentration in the world
among the FLDS.
Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is
expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding
between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows
and the Jessops.
"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the
Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital. ~~~
Forbidden Fruit
Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing
a caste of severely retarded and deformed children
By John Dougherty
Phoenix New Times, December 29, 2005
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/full
Fifteen years ago, a strange-looking child suffering from severe
physical maladies and acute retardation was brought into the office of
Dr. Theodore Tarby.
The pediatric neurologist regularly deals with a wide range of serious
childhood diseases as a doctor with the state-funded Children's
Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix. Tarby says he quickly realized he
was dealing with a very unusual condition that he could not diagnose.
He prepared urine samples and sent them to the University of Colorado
Science Center's Dr. Steve Goodman, a professor of pediatrics who runs a
laboratory that detects rare genetic diseases.
Goodman soon made a startling discovery: Tarby's young patient was
afflicted with an extremely rare disease called fumarase deficiency.
"I had never seen a patient with it," Tarby says. "Right away I asked
the parents if there were any other children with the same problem."
The parents said their daughter had cerebral palsy. Tarby asked them to
bring the girl to him for an examination.
"As soon as I saw her, I knew she had the same thing as her brother,"
Tarby says.
The fact that fumarase deficiency had shown up in one child was
startling enough -- there had only been a handful of cases reported
worldwide. But now that it was appearing in two children in the same
family was an indication it was being spread by a gene that was getting
passed to the children by their parents.
Tarby and a team of doctors from Barrow Neurological Institute at St.
Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix and the University of Arizona College of
Medicine in Tucson began researching the disease and soon discovered
that fumarase deficiency was occurring in at least two other families
living in the same isolated community that practiced an unusual custom.
Nearly everyone in Colorado City, Arizona, and the adjacent town of
Hildale, Utah, was a member of a fundamentalist Mormon sect that
practices polygamy and had long encouraged multiple marriages between
close relatives.
By the late 1990s, Tarby and his team had discovered fumarase deficiency
was occurring in the greatest concentration in the world among the
fundamentalist Mormon polygamists of northern Arizona and southern Utah.
Of even greater concern was the fact that the recessive gene that
triggers the disease was rapidly spreading to thousands of individuals
living in the community because of decades of inbreeding.
Fast-forward to the present: About half of the 8,000 people living in
the towns are blood relatives of two of the founding families that
settled in the 1930s on the desolate high desert plateau against the
base of the Vermillion Cliffs.
Religious leaders control all marriages in the community, and many of
these relatives have married or likely will marry in the future. Some of
these marriages will include parents who both are carriers of the
fumarase deficiency gene, making it certain that more children will be
afflicted with the disease.
"We have and will have a continual output of children with this
condition," Tarby says.
In this isolated religious society north of the Grand Canyon, few
secrets have been more closely guarded than the presence of fumarase
deficiency. Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
elders, who control the community, have labored to keep the public from
finding out why the disorder is manifesting. Many members of the
fundamentalist community don't even know it's occurring.
The state of Arizona is contributing to the secrecy. The state
Department of Health Services and the Department of Economic Security
have been quietly providing services to assist the children and families
of fumarase victims for more than 15 years. Both DHS and DES officials
refused repeated requests from New Times to document the type and cost
of services the state is providing to treat fumarase deficiency. The
agencies claim that federal health laws prohibit them from releasing
records or allowing their authorities to comment on the situation.
Doctors and family members interviewed by New Times say up to 20
children from families in the polygamist community are currently
afflicted with the condition that requires full-time attention from
caregivers. Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe
epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech
impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical
deformities.
"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the
Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital. Aleck is a
geneticist who participated along with Tarby and others in the
groundbreaking study of several polygamous families with fumarase
deficiency in the late 1990s.
There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to
process food at the cellular level.
"We can only treat the complications of the disorder," Aleck says. Once
a baby is born with the condition, Aleck says, "You really can't treat
the underlying disorder."
There is one documented case of a child dying from the malady since
medical experts began studying it, but it is unknown how many others
could have died in the fundamentalist community before the condition was
diagnosed.
Before the plethora of fumarase deficiency cases was discovered in
Colorado City and Hildale, many victims among the handful of cases
documented worldwide died in the first several years of life.
"If you look in the literature, you won't find another dozen cases in
the world that have been reported," says Tarby.
Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is
expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding
between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows
and the Jessops.
"If you cross a Barlow and Jessop, you stand a high risk of getting this
condition," Tarby says.
The genetic defect has been traced back to one of the community's
founding patriarchs, the late Joseph Smith Jessop, and the first of his
plural wives, according to medical literature, the Mormon Church
genealogy database and residents of the community familiar with Jessop
and Barlow family histories.
Joseph Smith Jessop and his first wife, Martha Moore Yeates, had 14
children. One of their daughters married another of the community's
founding patriarchs and religious leaders, John Yeates Barlow. By the
time Joseph Smith Jessop died in September 1953, he already had 112
grandchildren, the majority of them directly descended from him and Yeates.
Fifty-two years later, more than half of the 8,000 people now living in
Colorado City and Hildale are blood descendants of the Barlows and the
Jessops, says Benjamin Bistline, a lifelong resident of the area who has
published a book, Colorado City Polygamists, on the history of the
fundamentalist community.
An unknown number -- but believed to be in the thousands -- of
Barlow/Jessop descendants carry the recessive gene that causes fumarase
deficiency. If both parents carry the gene, the likelihood that their
offspring will be affected by the disease or become carriers of the gene
greatly increases, medical experts say.
"It's like any inbred disorder," Tarby says. "If the community gets
larger, the number of people with fumarase deficiency gets larger."
Aleck says the fact that so many people in the polygamist enclave are
blood relatives of the founding Barlow and Jessop families "shows the
magnitude of the problem."
The disease is not widely known about even in Colorado City, a place
where even normally public events such as marriages are conducted in
secret. But residents who are aware of fumarase deficiency fear that the
number of children afflicted with the disease will indeed increase.
"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts
40-year-old Isaac Wyler, another lifelong Colorado City resident who was
excommunicated from the FLDS in January 2004. Wyler's ex-wife's sister
has had two babies afflicted with fumarase deficiency. "Right now, we
are just looking at the tip of the iceberg."
For more than 70 years, all marriages in the isolated towns have been
arranged by the leader of the FLDS, a breakaway sect of the Salt Lake
City-based Mormon Church.
Marriages among first and second cousins have been common for decades in
the community, where religious doctrine requires men to have at least
three wives to gain eternal salvation. Only the FLDS prophet can arrange
and perform polygamous marriages, and those marriages are taking place
in a community in which almost everybody is related.
The current FLDS prophet is 50-year-old Warren Jeffs, who has not been
seen publicly since August 2003. Last June, Jeffs was charged with seven
felonies by Mohave County, Arizona, in connection with his performance
of "spiritual" marriages of three underage girls to already married men.
He was placed on the FBI's most wanted list last August. Eight other
Colorado City polygamists have been indicted by a Mohave County grand
jury for having unlawful sex with underage girls who were their plural
wives.
The indictments have come amid a three-year investigation by New Times
of the FLDS community. That probe has uncovered widespread sexual abuse
of young girls forced into polygamous marriages that, until recently,
was downplayed by Arizona political leaders and law enforcement.
The state not only ignored the crimes for decades, it helped facilitate
them by allowing the FLDS polygamists to set up a town government, a
public school district and a police department that have received tens
of millions of dollars in taxpayer funds despite the fact that polygamy
violates Arizona's Constitution. The FLDS has had an iron grip on the
local governments, because it has been impossible to get elected or
hired to a taxpayer-funded post without the church's blessing.
The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state
health-care services for the poor and indigent by receiving more than
$12 million a year in state assistance in Arizona to pay for
health-insurance premiums.
It turns out that taxpayers also have been footing the bill for the
fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural
marriage involving close relatives is their divine right.
There is no doubt in the mind of any expert interviewed by New Times
that the practice of polygamy combined with inbreeding has fostered the
spread of fumarase deficiency.
"Polygamy leads to sexual predation, and that leads to genetic
problems," says Rehabilitative Services' Tarby. "If you stop the sexual
predation, you stop the genetic problem as well. But [FLDS members]
don't think of it as sexual predation. That's the big problem."
"This man has left nothing of his worldly worth, but he has left far
more than most people of God's work. There isn't another man in the U.S.
that can boast this man's posterity," Life magazine quoted Virgil Jessop
as eulogizing at the September 1953 funeral of his 84-year-old father,
Joseph Smith Jessop.
Five decades later, it appears that Joseph Smith Jessop and his first
wife also passed on the rare genetic disorder fumarase deficiency.
The stage was set for the appearance of the rare disease when their 12th
child, Martha Jessop, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in
1923, according to LDS genealogy data and Colorado City historian Ben
Bistline.
Like his father-in-law, John Y. Barlow became one of the towering
patriarchs of the fundamentalist Mormon community and served as FLDS
prophet from 1935 until his death in 1949.
The Barlow-Jessop marriage brought forth some of the major political and
religious leaders of the community, including former Colorado City mayor
Dan Barlow, police officer Sam Barlow, public school superintendent
Alvin Barlow, teacher Louis Barlow, and civic leader Truman Barlow. All
of these men have or had multiple wives and scores of children.
Fumarase deficiency began to manifest in the community when three sets
of Joseph Smith Jessop and Martha Moore Yeates' great-grandchildren
married each other. The three marriages between second cousins have
produced at least eight children afflicted with fumarase deficiency,
according to a report in the May 2000 Annals of Neurology (based on the
study conducted by the group led by Tarby and Aleck), interviews with
doctors treating the disease and anecdotal evidence gathered from the
community.
The children afflicted with fumarase deficiency from these three
marriages include the grandchildren of Dan Barlow and his brother, the
late Louis Barlow, and Merill Jessop, a top aide to fugitive prophet
Warren Jeffs. It is Merill Jessop who is overseeing construction of a
massive FLDS temple in Eldorado, Texas, where many believe Prophet Jeffs
plans to move his faithful eventually.
Dan Barlow, who has been excommunicated from the FLDS, and Merill Jessop
could not be reached for comment. But Isaac Wyler, a former FLDS member
who was excommunicated from the church last year, says he has firsthand
knowledge of multiple fumarase deficiency children in each of the three
families.
"I know this off the top of my head," Wyler says. "I know these people
personally."
Medical experts say the incidence of the disorder will increase because
the FLDS community is refusing to accept recommendations to reduce the
likelihood of producing babies with fumarase deficiency. Tarby says he
discussed the disease and its causes during a town meeting on November
18, 2004, that was attended by more than 100 FLDS members.
Tarby says he explained to the gathering at Town Hall in Colorado City
that the only way to stop fumarase deficiency in the community is to
abort fetuses that test positive for the disease and for the community
to stop intermarriages between Barlows and Jessops, Barlows and Barlows
and Jessops and Jessops.
Tarby says members of the community made it clear that neither choice
was acceptable. Tarby recounts a conversation he had with a member of
the Barlow clan in which he tried to explain why so much fumarase
deficiency was occurring among Mormon polygamists.
"I said, 'You're married to somebody you're related to. That leads to
problems.'
"The man's response was, 'Up here, we are all related,'" Tarby says.
"They just don't worry about the effects of intermarriage."
Tarby says the disease could begin to show up in children at Warren
Jeffs' new FLDS headquarters under construction on a 1,600-acre ranch
outside of Eldorado. The FLDS already has moved several hundred men,
women and children to the compound, many of whom very likely carry the
fumarase deficiency gene.
The only long-term solution to the health crisis is for Barlows and
Jessops to have children with spouses from outside the polygamist community.
"They have to outbreed," Aleck says.
But this is a very unlikely scenario for FLDS faithful, who practice a
religious doctrine that requires men to be strictly obedient to
religious leaders and requires women to give birth to as many children
as possible to increase the sect's numbers.
"Who [from outside the fundamentalist Mormon religion] would want to go
in there and join their population?" Aleck asks. "It's probably hard to
recruit into that environment."
Indeed, even if an outsider wanted to join the FLDS community, such a
person would not be welcome.
"They are discouraging any new blood," historian Bistline says. "They've
got this idea that their blood is pure and that they want to keep it pure."
With no other options available, more FLDS families will be faced with
the difficult burden of caring for children suffering with fumarase
deficiency. Rather than take steps to avoid the problem, the FLDS
loyalists may believe it is their duty to accept their fate.
"They think it is a test from God," says Wyler, who was born and raised
in the FLDS before he was booted out.
And a terrible test it is.
Fumarase deficiency is caused by a lack of the fumarase enzyme, an
essential component in a biological process called the Krebs cycle,
which converts food into energy within each cell. Not enough of the
fumarase enzyme can lead to severe mental retardation and physical
deformities.
"The kids that I have seen have terrible seizure disorders and
developmental delays," says Dr. Aleck. "They are functioning way below
their chronological age."
Yet, Aleck says, some children are more seriously affected by the
disorder than others. "Some are very debilitated and some aren't," he says.
Some fumarase deficiency children, he says, develop a small degree of
motor skills over time: "They don't remain infantile their entire life.
They do develop to some degree, but it's way behind their peers."
Dr. Tarby, who routinely treats fumarase deficiency children at a
state-funded clinic in Flagstaff, says, "They are funny-looking kids
[with] biggish heads and coarse, thick features."
Their brains, he says, "are strangely shaped" and are frequently missing
large areas of brain matter that has been replaced by water. An MRI of
the brain of one fumarase deficiency child showed that more than half
the brain was missing.
Tarby says most of the children "can say at least a word or two," but
that all of them "have severe mental retardation" with IQs of less than 25.
Some of the kids can walk, but others have a difficult time even
sitting. The children who can't walk, the medical experts say, have most
likely suffered strokes during severe seizures.
Despite the secrecy in the community over fumarase deficiency children,
Wyler says he has observed his ex-wife's sister's children and others on
several occasions.
"People don't like to talk about their fumarase babies for obvious
reasons," Wyler says. "I don't know how many who die within the first
two or three years that we don't even ever know about."
Wyler says he has seen some fumarase deficiency children who can walk,
but others can barely move and spend their entire lives prone.
Children of the latter variety, he says, "can't crawl. They can't sit
up. They are lucky if they can even move their head and eyes a little bit."
All of the fumarase deficiency children Wyler has seen remain dependent
on the parents or caregivers.
"They are totally helpless," he says.
Frequent and powerful seizures are among the most disturbing
characteristics of the disease. Wyler says he once saw a fumarase
deficiency child suffer a seizure while she was sitting with her mother
and two other children also suffering from the disorder.
"All of a sudden [with] this one little baby, everything tightened up
and she arched her back so hard her head was almost touching her toes,"
Wyler says.
"The mother," he says, "was just sitting there rubbing her hands on [the
child's] back trying to get her to relax."
Families with fumarase children receive in-home help from the Division
of Developmental Disabilities, a unit of the state Department of
Economic Security. Much of the state care is simply helping parents with
hygiene, feeding and mobility of the child.
"One lady I know, she just cannot physically pick [her son] up anymore
to get him into the bathtub," Wyler says. "A lady comes in and helps
her. And it takes two of them to get him into the bathtub just to wash
him down and clean him up."
One advantage of polygamous families, Wyler says, is that the mother of
a fumarase child will likely have other women in the household to lend a
hand.
"A sister wife would be a godsend just to be able to help out," he says.
"Not only to help physically, but to be somebody to talk to."
Arizona used to send doctors from Children's Rehabilitative Services,
which is a division of the state health department, to Colorado City on
a regular basis to examine fumarase deficiency children.
But doctors stopped going to Colorado City after the state and press
stepped up scrutiny of the community in 2004. Doctors feared that the
media would photograph fumarase deficiency children as they were
entering a medical clinic in Colorado City.
"We had no desire to encounter ABC News at the clinic entrance," Tarby says.
The doctors only agreed to talk to New Times after Tarby was approached
with a copy of the fumarase deficiency study.
Families now must drive fumarase children to Flagstaff for regular
evaluations. Despite the frustrations doctors have with dealing with a
community that refuses their recommendations on how to prevent the
condition in the future, there is no question that treatment will continue.
"We do not deny medical care to people because of religious beliefs,"
Tarby says.
In fact, the state's willingness to provide medical assistance to
afflicted children may be allowing Utah families to receive treatment
paid for by Arizona taxpayers. "I don't know if all the patients I treat
are technically eligible for my services [because they may live out of
state]," Tarby says.
Researchers have identified a gene on the first chromosome that causes
fumarase deficiency, but no test has been developed that could be used
to identify individuals carrying the malady. If such a test were
developed, a community-wide screening program could be instituted that
would identify those carrying the fumarase gene.
Dr. Vinodh Narayanan, a pediatric neurologist at St. Joseph's Hospital,
says he is seeking funding to develop a test that would allow public
health officials to collect voluntary blood samples from as many FLDS
members as possible. The samples could be tested for the gene at the
Translational Genomics Research Institute in Phoenix.
He estimates the test would cost about $50 per sample and would provide
crucial information to community members of who is carrying the
recessive gene that causes fumarase deficiency.
Until the test is available, Tarby says, the best prevention measure
remains refraining from crossing Barlows, Jessops and their relations --
who make up half the population of the polygamist enclave.
It's unlikely the polygamous community will heed the doctor's advice.
Even the few highly educated people there, including a medical doctor
who practices at the Hildale Health Center, refuse to accept advice from
any outsider, including doctors such as Tarby, who has treated their
children for years.
"They don't believe anything written about Colorado City [by outsiders,
even medical experts] carries much truth," Tarby says.
For Colorado City and Hildale to avoid more fumarase, polygamist leaders
must use their authority to make sure that those potentially carrying
the fumarase gene are not allowed to marry, says geneticist Aleck.
The leaders must also understand the ethical considerations of
continuing behavior, he says, that is bringing children into the world
who suffer tragic deformities.
"They have the authoritarian structure necessary to keep this from
happening, but I don't think they have the advanced thinking," Aleck says.
"I try in my own, quiet way and tell them to outbreed. But that's like
spitting in the ocean."
The ultimate decision on marriages rests with FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs.
And Jeffs so far has shown no indication that he is concerned about the
increasing prevalence of fumarase deficiency children in the community,
former FLDS member Isaac Wyler says.
Even if a genetic screening test were available, Wyler says, Jeffs would
have to be cautious about how he allowed it to be implemented. If the
FLDS faithful believed that Jeffs was relying on science to determine
marriages rather than divine revelation from God, he could lose control
of the church.
"Warren has to be really careful that he doesn't lose his position as a
god to these people," Wyler says.
FLDS marriages, Wyler and other community experts say, are an extension
of a breeding program that began with Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith
in the 1830s. The early Mormon Church practiced polygamy until 1890,
when leaders abandoned the practice as a condition for Utah to gain
statehood. The FLDS was formed by Mormons who refused to give up polygamy.
Warren Jeffs, like Joseph Smith before him, has emphasized the
importance of obedience among members of the church. Jeffs is following
a long-established practice -- started by Smith 170 years ago -- of
excommunicating those who do not strictly adhere to church leaders'
commands.
"The 'gene' that Warren is really selecting for," Wyler says, "is the
'obedience gene.'
"Joseph Smith was also selecting for the 'obedience gene.' He was
kicking people out, too, who weren't obedient.
"I hate to talk like this about my own genealogy," Wyler says, "but,
literally, they are keeping all the breeding stock -- the women, the
[strictly faithful] men -- and weeding out the disobedient men."
The ultimate goal of the breeding program, Wyler says, is to create the
perfect race.
"Remember how Hitler was trying to breed a perfect race?" he says.
"Warren Jeffs is also trying to breed a perfect race."
The widespread presence of the fumarase deficiency gene in the
bloodlines of the founding families of Colorado City is going to make
reaching any such goal extremely difficult.
The few dissenters in the community say the serious genetic problems
that are beginning to surface are an indication that the closed FLDS
society could eventually collapse.
"Maybe it will just self-destruct," historian Bistline says of the
fundamentalist church he quit 20 years ago because of a dispute over
religious doctrine and property ownership. "In the meantime, the
taxpayers have to pay the bills."
John Manning
> This is also a culprit: uniparental isodisomy. As previously stated,
> first cousin marriages are legal in 20 states and is a modern taboo
> with geneticists, for the most part not supporting the taboo.
The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
Read that over again a few times Ramona.
> Here is another group with issues, the Amish with Amish microcephaly.
> Of equal note is that the Amish seem to have a rate of Autism 1:
> 15,000.
So what? That's IRRELEVANT to the illegal incest practiced in the FLDS
Ramona.
>
> War in medical community over cousin marriage
> Friday, 30 May 2008 12:44
> [Cousin marriage is still popular in Briatin's Pakistani community]
> Science In Focus
The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
Read that over again a few times Ramona.
> The medical community has shown signs of deep division over the number
> of cousin marriages in Britain.
>
> A meeting of medical practitioners and geneticists organised by the
> Progress Educational Trust in London last night revealed deep rifts
> over the appropriate response to high levels of cousin marriage in
> Britain's Pakistani community.
>
> Many doctors and GPs are calling for a government education drive to
> warn couples of the dangers of having children with their cousins, but
> some geneticists are branding the drive an excuse to interfere with
> people's private lives, pointing to the ----> relatively low risk
> level of the marriages.<-----
The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
Read that over again a few times Ramona.
>
> Emphasis mine
>
> http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/science/war-in-medical-community-over-cousin-marriage-$1225128.htm
>
> Are there autosomal recessive issues among the FLDS? Yes, but I also
> likely carry them as well. Based on my hapologroup I was at high risk
> for babies born with SIDS but a negligle rate of both Parkinson's and
> Alzheimer's. Again, as previously stated, you take the good with the
> bad. I suppose you would next suggest is to forcibly abort or mandate
> infanticide for all those babies born with any and all autosomal
> issues.
By the late 1990s, Tarby and his team had discovered fumarase deficiency
was occurring in the greatest concentration in the world among the FLDS.
Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is
expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding
between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows
and the Jessops.
"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the
Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital.
> Just some interesting reading
> http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/17060.htm
You're not listening, Ramona.
- It may be interesting but it's *totally irrelevant* to the issue of
FLDS incest which goes FAR beyond the limits of first cousin marriages
and is producing mental retardation and horrible physical deformities in
the FLDS children from "fumarase deficiency ...occurring in the greatest
concentration in the world."
"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the
Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital.
"The kids that I have seen have terrible seizure disorders and
developmental delays," says Dr. Aleck. "They are functioning way below
their chronological age."
Yet, Aleck says, some children are more seriously affected by the
disorder than others. "Some are very debilitated and some aren't," he says.
Some fumarase deficiency children, he says, develop a small degree of
motor skills over time: "They don't remain infantile their entire life.
They do develop to some degree, but it's way behind their peers."
Dr. Tarby, who routinely treats fumarase deficiency children at a
state-funded clinic in Flagstaff, says, "They are funny-looking kids
[with] biggish heads and coarse, thick features."
Their brains, he says, "are strangely shaped" and are frequently missing
large areas of brain matter that has been replaced by water. An MRI of
the brain of one fumarase deficiency child showed that more than half
the brain was missing.
Tarby says most of the children "can say at least a word or two," but
that all of them "have severe mental retardation" with IQs of less than 25.
Some of the kids can walk, but others have a difficult time even
sitting. The children who can't walk, the medical experts say, have most
likely suffered strokes during severe seizures. [...]
John Manning
> On Jun 8, 4:07 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
>>Ramona wrote:
>>
>>>This is also a culprit: uniparental isodisomy. As previously stated,
>>>first cousin marriages are legal in 20 states and is a modern taboo
>>>with geneticists, for the most part not supporting the taboo.
>>
>>The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
>>
>>Read that over again a few times Ramona.
>
> that:
> Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is
> expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding
> between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows
> and the Jessops.
>
> those two families. At this point, distant cousins could marry and
> STILL carry fumerase. I think you and RED need to both sit in the
> same BIO 101 class.
I don't need to take a biology class to see that incest as practiced by
the FLDS is producing horribly deformed children. I also don't need a
bio class to know that incest as practiced by the FLDS is ILLEGAL.
>>>Here is another group with issues, the Amish with Amish microcephaly.
>>>Of equal note is that the Amish seem to have a rate of Autism 1:
>>>15,000.
>>
>>So what? That's IRRELEVANT to the illegal incest practiced in the FLDS
>
> But relevant to the fact that you don't stop looking simply because
> one issue pops up.
It's IRRELEVANT to the FLDS case.
What others facts are there regarding the FLDS
> group besides deleterious Fumerase Deficiency.
Irrelevant. Incest as practiced by the FLDS is illegal.
Do they have instances
> of Autism above or below the rate outside the general population? Do
> they have Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's and at what rate.
> Instead of immediately damning then and aborting their babies for
> them, why not find out if like certain greek's they are immune to
> various disorders negatively impacting us with important genetic
> information. What would Darwin Do?
>
>>Ramona.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> War in medical community over cousin marriage
>>>Friday, 30 May 2008 12:44
>>>[Cousin marriage is still popular in Briatin's Pakistani community]
>>>Science In Focus
>>
>>The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
>>
>>Read that over again a few times Ramona.
>
> Repeating nonsense doesn't make it any more true.
But the problem is that it *IS* true. The FLDS have been incestuously
inbreeding beyond first cousins for many decades and the results in
birth defects are clear and horrific.
Once in the
> population, like it is among the FLDS, consanguinity is no longer
> required. Fourth cousins could marry and be at greater risk than
> first cousins based on whether or not one is a carrier. If only one
> first cousin carried the gene, there is NO risk. If both fourth
> cousins carry the gene they are at risk.
Show where the FLDS have adhered to 'safe' incest and inbreeding,
Ramona. If they have, then why do they have the highest fumarase
deficiency rate in the world and the horribly deformed children to show
for it.
For you to try to defend such a sick deviant system is perverse and
sociopathic.
>>>The medical community has shown signs of deep division over the number
>>>of cousin marriages in Britain.
>>
>>>A meeting of medical practitioners and geneticists organised by the
>>>Progress Educational Trust in London last night revealed deep rifts
>>>over the appropriate response to high levels of cousin marriage in
>>>Britain's Pakistani community.
>>
>>>Many doctors and GPs are calling for a government education drive to
>>>warn couples of the dangers of having children with their cousins, but
>>>some geneticists are branding the drive an excuse to interfere with
>>>people's private lives, pointing to the ----> relatively low risk
>>>level of the marriages.<-----
>>
>>The FLDS do not limit themselves to first cousin marriages.
>>
>>Read that over again a few times Ramona.
>
> Still not relevant. There is no risk if both first cousins are not
> carriers, while if both fourth cousins are carriers there is grave
> risk.
You must be thick, Ramona, to be incapable of seeing the devastating
results of the incestuous inbreeding of the FLDS. And you are one sick
human being if you support such a system that promotes this kind of
human reproduction in the name of religion.
The bottom line is that what the FLDS are practicing, ie. polygamy.
incest and underage sex is ILLEGAL.
[snip]
>>>Just some interesting reading
>>>http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/17060.htm
>>
>>You're not listening, Ramona.
>
> Nope, I am reading. I am quite familiar with autosomal recessive
> disease. Heck, I even admit to genetic counseling. Fumerase
> deficiency is bad and the likely outcome in our societal is
> abortion.
And yet you support the incestuous practice that causes it? You're
fucking sick.
>>- It may be interesting but it's *totally irrelevant* to the issue of
>>FLDS incest which goes FAR beyond the limits of first cousin marriages
>>and is producing mental retardation and horrible physical deformities in
>>the FLDS children from "fumarase deficiency ...occurring in the greatest
>>concentration in the world."
>
> First, it is not exclusive to the FLDS with first cousin marriages
> permitted in 20 states.
You're not paying attention, Ramona. Since when do the FLDS limit their
sexual practices with relatives to first cousins?
They don't.
And THAT kind of incest *IS* illegal.
Second, our society was developed as a by-
> product of close marriages.
That's pure bullshit, Ramona. Our society was nowhere near
multigenerationally limited to two family gene pools - nor did it ever
achieve fumarase deficiency anywhere on the scale that the FLDS incest
has produced.
It made us successful and able to
> survive. Third, close marriages are a recent taboo and not for the
> most part, supported by geneticists.
>
>>"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the
>>Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital.
>
>
> What do you suggest occur?
The FLDS system promotes polygamy, underage sex and incest. Those are
ALL illegal, not only in Texas, but as far as I know, all over America.
Legally, one can easily conclude that that system has to end.
Again, fourth cousin marriages are legal
> in every state and around the world but can still result in offspring
> with fumerase deficiency.
You are really trying to defend the FLDS practices of incest, underage
sex and polygamy. Those practices [as practiced by the FLDS] are ILLEGAL
all over the USA.
> Snip article
>
>>The ultimate goal of the breeding program, Wyler says, is to create the
>>perfect race.
>
> What is meant by "perfect?" Perfect obedience, perfect righteousness,
> perfect human form, or was Wyler talking because of an ax to grind.
> Oh the possibilities.
Your personal speculations and attempt to shift attention from the
obvious reference to inbreeding, is reprehensible, Ramona.
>>"Remember how Hitler was trying to breed a perfect race?" he says.
>>"Warren Jeffs is also trying to breed a perfect race."
>
>
> Yet here you sit forcibly deciding who is permitted to breed with whom
> depending on genetic background which is none of your damned
> business.
It isn't *me* who's deciding anything, Ramona. Incest as practiced by
the FLDS has been almost universally considered taboo and illegal
throughout history... for the obvious reasons which have shown up
horribly in those FLDS children.
If they want genetic counseling, it would be wise, but they
> are under no legal obligation to do so just because you don't like
> birth defected children and prefer yours legally murdered through
> abortion.
What you STILL aren't 'getting' is that incest, underage sex and
polygamy, as practiced by the FLDS, *IS ILLEGAL* .
Before you get all hot under the collar, I believe abortion
> should remain legal, but I also chose to give birth to a child with a
> very serious congenital birth defect. My uterus, my choice and the
> same applies to every FLDS woman no matter what the hell you think is
> good for her and even if she marries a close relative legally or
> spiritually. Again, my uterus, my business.
Who gives a shit about your uterus or what you think about abortion? It
has nothing to do with this discussion.
Red Davis
miserable, half-breed looking of a human being? Are you a result of
incest?
Question: why did you flee the United States? Were you being
investigated by any State or U.S. law enforcement agencies at the time
of your departure?
-Red Davis
John Manning
Go back to playing in the toilet you little hillbilly cockroach.
Just Wondering
> On Jun 8, 4:07 pm, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>> - It may be interesting but it's *totally irrelevant* to the issue of
>> FLDS incest which goes FAR beyond the limits of first cousin marriages
>> and is producing mental retardation and horrible physical deformities in
>> the FLDS children from "fumarase deficiency ...occurring in the greatest
>> concentration in the world."
> First, it is not exclusive to the FLDS with first cousin marriages
> permitted in 20 states.
<snipped>
I'm no advocate of incest. BUT:
The only news article I was with actual numbers reported 20 existing
cases of fumarase deficiency in the FLDS population. Which leads me to
a couple of questions I have not yet seen answers to.
First, how many of the 20 were the result of breeding between first
cousins or closer, and how many were between parents of more distant
relationships?
Second, what is the TOTAL birth defect rate of all causes in the FLDS
population, as compared to the general population in the same area?
Unless THAT number is significantly higher than in the general
population, what's the purpose of finger-pointing at the FLDS? I suggest
it is really based only on "moral ickyness", which according to Lawrence
v. Texas is not a sufficient reason to criminalize sexual activity.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm
"State Laws Regarding Marriages Between First Cousins
"Twenty-five states prohibit marriages between first cousins. Six states
allow first cousin marriage under certain circumstances, and North
Carolina allows first cousin marriage but prohibits double-cousin
marriage. States generally recognize marriages of first cousins married
in a state where such marriages are legal."
BTW, as far as I know, the only laws on the subject are only against
marriage and sex, and do not prohibit procreation itself.
...
---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ----
http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups
紐. L. Measures
<301f532d-8787-4632...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Red
Davis <there...@yahoo.com> wrote:
• Congrats on blowing his main fuse John,
--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
紐. L. Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
• Congrats on blowing his guse Red.
Caleope
"Ramona" <atlr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5bcad37-f749-4139...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Are there autosomal recessive issues among the FLDS? Yes, but I also
> likely carry them as well. Based on my hapologroup I was at high risk
> for babies born with SIDS but a negligle rate of both Parkinson's and
> Alzheimer's. Again, as previously stated, you take the good with the
> bad. I suppose you would next suggest is to forcibly abort or mandate
> infanticide for all those babies born with any and all autosomal
> issues.
How about the polygamists pay for the care of these deformed and suffering
children they knowingly bring in to the world? Why burden the taxpayers?
These are not accidents since they know inbreeding in the cause of many
genetics defects expressing themselves. You seem to see nothing wrong in
their knowing the truth and going ahead and producing more children to
suffer this disorder.
Caleope
"John Manning" <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote in message
news:TJSdnfzotNLGztHV...@giganews.com...
>
> For you to try to defend such a sick deviant system is perverse and
> sociopathic.
She's been brain-washed. You see it in all the cults. Only deprogramming or
some other form of "opening their eyes" and "removing their blinders" will
allow them to see reality.
Caleope
My uterus, my choice and the
> same applies to every FLDS woman no matter what the hell you think is
> good for her and even if she marries a close relative legally or
> spiritually. Again, my uterus, my business.
Then it should be YOU and THEM supporting these defective children you
knowingly chose to give birth to - not the taxpayers. But you'll find some
excuse, some reason the taxpayers should support their care. No, don't abort
them. Try stopping the inbreeding. Let them get tested to see who is
carrying the gene and who isn't. It's not rocket science.
Caleope
"Red Davis" <there...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:301f532d-8787-4632...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
How is that relevant to the conversation?
>
> -Red Davis
>
>
Caleope
"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:12129952...@pro-front01.com...
>
> BTW, as far as I know, the only laws on the subject are only against
> marriage and sex, and do not prohibit procreation itself.
And just how would they do that without forcing the women carrying the
inbred child to abort? At the time these laws came about, few children were
born out of wedlock. My grandmother told us that in her European village,
not one child was born out of wedlock, not one young lady had to leave town
for an extended vacation. No mysterious babies showed up on a young woman's
doorstep. She experienced the same thing in this country. None of her
neighbors in the city where she settled down had fatherless children.
Caleope
> I hadn't even considered that....the wonders of turkey basters. I
> have heard such allegations regarding the Kingston group, but if it's
> not against the law it isn't a crime. What was that about moral
> ickiness again?
And just what kind of society would we have if none of us had morals? What
if some FLDS men decided they wanted and liked sex with little 12 and 13
year old boys? Ickiness for the law to step in? I think Ramona, someone
failed to teach you morals when you were a young girl.
>
> Ramona
>>
>> ...
>> ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News
>> Provider ----http://www.pronews.comoffers corporate packages that have
>> access to 100,000+ newsgroups
>
Just Wondering
>
> "Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:12129952...@pro-front01.com...
>>
>> BTW, as far as I know, the only laws on the subject are only against
>> marriage and sex, and do not prohibit procreation itself.
>
> And just how would they do that without forcing the women carrying the
> inbred child to abort?
Simple. No abortion is required. Pass a law that says:
1. Incestuous procreation is procreation between a man and a woman
related by blood within 4 degrees of consanguinity.
2. Incestuous procreation is a misdemeanor.
Then, if people don't want to do the time, they shouldn't do the crime.
Of course, if your goal is to criminalize behavior that passes on bad
genes, any incest law is both overbroad (because many incestuous
relationships would not do that) and underinclusive (because many
non-incestuous relationships do that). Not to mention that any such law
would probably have serious constitutional problems.
> At the time these laws came about, few children were born out of wedlock.
That's a pretty naive statement, but even if so, what is your point?
> My grandmother told us that in her European village, not one child was born out of wedlock, not one young lady had
> to leave town for an extended vacation. No mysterious babies showed up
> on a young woman's doorstep. She experienced the same thing in this
> country. None of her neighbors in the city where she settled down had
> fatherless children.
>
Other than the fact that women may have been better at keeping their
legs crossed back then, what is your point?
Caleope
> On Jun 9, 8:59 pm, "Caleope" <inva...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> "Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:12129952...@pro-front01.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > BTW, as far as I know, the only laws on the subject are only against
>> > marriage and sex, and do not prohibit procreation itself.
>>
>> And just how would they do that without forcing the women carrying the
>> inbred child to abort? At the time these laws came about, few children
>> were
>> born out of wedlock.
> That is only in your own private fantasyland.
Really? Well I'm talking about those in civilized societies, not the society
you apparently came from.
>
> My grandmother told us that in her European village,
>> not one child was born out of wedlock,
> LOLROFLMAO!!! That is hysterically funny.
There were no polygamous Mormons in her village sexually abusing young
girls. How about your village back in the early 1900s?
>
> not one young lady had to leave town
>> for an extended vacation.
>
> You also know that abortions are not "new" and neither is the use of
> birth control.
Birth control and abortions in country villages in Europe in the early
1900s?
>
> No mysterious babies showed up on a young woman's
>> doorstep.
> Your grandma is a liar.
No, YOU are the liar. A young hardly could hardly get pregnant when they
were closely chaperoned. What parent would sit there and allow their
daughter to have intercourse in front of them? I'm sorry if your parents
allowed you to have sex in their home as they watched. You are more than a
liar Ramona, you are a pathological liar.
There likely was not such thing as an
> alcoholic and everybody in town attended church and all loved one
> another.
I'm sure they managed to make their own in those small rural villages. Loved
one another? She didn't mention.
>
> She experienced the same thing in this country.
> That happens when you rewrite history.
Rewriting history isn't necessary. Normal people, unlike those you seem to
come from, did not allow their daughters to have sex in their home as they
watched. Couples were carefully chaperoned until marriage. The young lady
went from her father's home to her new home with her husband. It's a shame
you never experienced how a moral family lives.
>
> None of her
>> neighbors in the city where she settled down had fatherless children.
> The funniest part is that you actually believe her stories and that is
> precisely what they are...stories, tales, fiction.
And your proof she's a liar and that chaperoned young ladies had sex in
front of their parents or family is where........ ?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > ...
>> > ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News
>> > Provider ----
>> >http://www.pronews.comoffers corporate packages that have access to
>> > 100,000+ newsgroups
>
Caleope
> Caleope wrote:
>>
>> "Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:12129952...@pro-front01.com...
>>>
>>> BTW, as far as I know, the only laws on the subject are only against
>>> marriage and sex, and do not prohibit procreation itself.
>>
>> And just how would they do that without forcing the women carrying the
>> inbred child to abort?
>
>
> Simple. No abortion is required. Pass a law that says:
> 1. Incestuous procreation is procreation between a man and a woman
> related by blood within 4 degrees of consanguinity.
> 2. Incestuous procreation is a misdemeanor.
>
> Then, if people don't want to do the time, they shouldn't do the crime.
That sounds fair enough. Perhaps you and your lawyer friends can get such a
law passed to stop the birth of these unfortunate children.
>
> Of course, if your goal is to criminalize behavior that passes on bad
> genes, any incest law is both overbroad (because many incestuous
> relationships would not do that) and underinclusive (because many
> non-incestuous relationships do that). Not to mention that any such law
> would probably have serious constitutional problems.
Then what do you see as the answer? Allowing the deformed children to
continue to be born and burden the tax payer with them? What bout the
suffering the child itself must endure? Why not request all of these
inbreds have genetic testing before they marry? This could avoid the forced
marriages of two who carry the defect. The "prophet" could then pair off
those who do not to those who do and so avoid the problem from appearing in
the children. To get rid of it altogether those carriers can be sterilized
and not bear children and propagate the disorder. There are plenty of
children in this country for adoption. The foster care system is bursting as
the seams.
>
>
>
>> At the time these laws came about, few children were born out of wedlock.
>
>
> That's a pretty naive statement, but even if so, what is your point?
The laws are antiquated. Naive? I think not. People were more religious in
those days. Girls were chaperoned by adults or older brothers. Girls didn't
date until they were 18. My own mother was not allowed to date until she was
18. Not until she was engaged to my father did they allow her to double date
with another couple their age. She had to be home at 9 PM as did her
girlfriends from school and church. People had better morals in those times
but perhaps as a FLDS or Mormon you are not aware of that. My grandmother
and her sister were escorted to and chaperoned in this country until
marriage by their older brother.
>
>
>> My grandmother told us that in her European village, not one child was
>> born out of wedlock, not one young lady had to leave town for an extended
>> vacation. No mysterious babies showed up on a young woman's doorstep. She
>> experienced the same thing in this country. None of her neighbors in the
>> city where she settled down had fatherless children.
>>
>
> Other than the fact that women may have been better at keeping their legs
> crossed back then, what is your point?
See above.
Caleope
> On Jun 10, 1:34 pm, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Other than the fact that women may have been better at keeping their
>> legs crossed back then, what is your point?
Of course most of them kept their legs crossed. They knew the stigma of
being single and pregnant. The shame it would bring to their family. They
feared their God also. Most religious girls with morals still keep their
legs crossed today. Moral parents keep a close eye on their daughters as do
myself and my wife.
> The ratio of extramarital births was around 9% in Hungary at the turn
> of the century and between the world wars. The differences between
> rural and urban areas were considerable, with the ratios being much
> higher in towns, especially in big cities than in villages.
My maternal grandmother came from the German Poland boarder. They lived
outside a small village on a farm. Girls were not allowed to date alone. All
were church goers, religious people and all were chaperoned until marriage.
My paternal grandmother came from Latvia and was also chaperoned until
marriage.
Brevity snip not applicable to my family...........
Caleope
> On Jun 9, 8:45 pm, "Caleope" <inva...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> "Ramona" <atlram...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:96ddda14-331f-40c5...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> My uterus, my choice and the
>>
>> > same applies to every FLDS woman no matter what the hell you think is
>> > good for her and even if she marries a close relative legally or
>> > spiritually. Again, my uterus, my business.
>>
>> Then it should be YOU and THEM supporting these defective children you
>> knowingly chose to give birth to - not the taxpayers.
>
> autosomal recessive diseases also take that same 25 % risk every
> pregnancy?
See... I knew it. I knew you feel they should knowingly breed defective
children to suffer and be supported by the taxpayers. The FDLS on 2 of the 3
human breeding ranches are already on welfare and you also expect the
taxpayer to support their defective children when it could be so easily
prevented. Of course you couldn't care less about the suffering of these
deformed mentally retarded children.
Why is the care of FLDS children less important than
> caring for a poor black child with sickle cell?
If the black child is fatherless, has no health ins and is on welfare it
will be supported. Many are aborted to spare the child the suffering all
through it's life. Jews will do the same with their TayS fetuses. The
"wives" or sex-toys of the FLDS men and any defective children they
knowingly and willing produced should be supported by these men - not
society. A black child or Jewish child with a father and health insurance
is not leeching off society or "bleeding the beast" as these FDLS are doing.
Where are your screams
> that the blacks, "asked for it" and don't deserve financial support
> for those children?
Are you saying blacks are inbreeding and knowingly and willfully producing
defective children like the FLDS inbreds? Wait, don't answer since it's
obvious you see nothing wrong with sexually depraved men having underage
inbred sex-toys called "spiritual wives" knowingly and willingly producing
defective children to suffer and die young - and dump the whole mess on
society to support. As long as these good old boys get their sexual
gratification ..... at everyone else's expense. SHAME ON YOU!
Your insulting idiotic bullshit snipped.
Caleope
> On Jun 9, 8:19 pm, "Caleope" <inva...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> "Ramona" <atlram...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:f5bcad37-f749-4139...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Are there autosomal recessive issues among the FLDS? Yes, but I also
>> > likely carry them as well. Based on my hapologroup I was at high risk
>> > for babies born with SIDS but a negligle rate of both Parkinson's and
>> > Alzheimer's. Again, as previously stated, you take the good with the
>> > bad. I suppose you would next suggest is to forcibly abort or mandate
>> > infanticide for all those babies born with any and all autosomal
>> > issues.
>>
>> How about the polygamists pay for the care of these deformed and
>> suffering
>> children they knowingly bring in to the world?
> Why should the FLDS be excluded from SSI simply because of their
> religious orientation?
Why should they be included when they have "fathers", sex deviants that they
may be, who should supply them with health ins or use birth control to keep
from producing more and more of them? How many people choose to knowingly
and willfully bring deformed children in to the world to suffer and die
young..... and expect society to support them? I know of no other group
doing this.
> Why burden the taxpayers?
> As tax-paying citizens, they have that right. There are no laws that
> state only those citizens not FLDS may draw benefits.
Where are all the fathers? Why aren't they supporting all the children they
sire like common alleycats? Why don't these women have health ins. through
their "husbands?" Why should we pick up the tab instead of the men who live
with and impregnate them?
>
>> These are not accidents since they know inbreeding in the cause of many
>> genetics defects expressing themselves.
>
> If two blacks or Mediterraneans marry one another, they two are quite
> capable of producing the horrific disease known as sickle-cell anemia
> which is also autosomal recessive. Knowing that disease is in the
> population, it would also not "be an accident."
And that is why most get genetic testing before marriage or before getting
pregnant. Why don't the FLDS get these tests done? How many blacks or
Mediterrains are in polygamous situations, fathering large numbers of
children and dumping their wives and defective children on society to
support?
Why target the FLDS
> exclusively when not all are carriers? Why not demand genetic testing
> for all, then determine if the couple is eligible to produce
> offspring? Why not also demand a certain I.Q. to weed out "stupid"
> genes?
Are they all in polygamous situations, sexually depraved men fathering large
numbers of children and dumping their wives and defective children on
society to support? Men who refuse to support their own "wives" and
children? When they all start doing this then we can demand they all be
tested.
SniP same old apologist crap...........
Caleope
> On Jun 10, 5:15 pm, "Caleope" <inva...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> "Ramona" <atlram...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:181d9eaa-3c77-4535...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Jun 10, 1:34 pm, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> Other than the fact that women may have been better at keeping their
>> >> legs crossed back then, what is your point?
>>
>> Of course most of them kept their legs crossed. They knew the stigma of
>> being single and pregnant. The shame it would bring to their family.
>> They
>> feared their God also. Most religious girls with morals still keep their
>> legs crossed today. Moral parents keep a close eye on their daughters as
>> do
>> myself and my wife.
>>
>> > The ratio of extramarital births was around 9% in Hungary at the turn
>> > of the century and between the world wars. The differences between
>> > rural and urban areas were considerable, with the ratios being much
>> > higher in towns, especially in big cities than in villages.
>>
>> My maternal grandmother came from the German Poland boarder.
> posted absolutely apply.
>
> They lived
>> outside a small village on a farm. Girls were not allowed to date alone.
>
> All
>> were church goers, religious people and all were chaperoned until
>> marriage.
>> My paternal grandmother came from Latvia and was also chaperoned until
>> marriage.
>>
>> Brevity snip not applicable to my family...........
>
Only in your angry feverish mind.
>
> R
Caleope
SniP!
Irrelevant to the subject of FLDS knowingly and willfully bringing horribly
deformed and mentally retarded children into the world and refusing to
support them.
John Manning
Ramona is noted for regularly inserting irrelevant material into her
arguments.
Just Wondering
Like I said, any law trying to deal with the problem of passing on bad
genes has serious constitutional problems. You can't pass a law just
saying the FLDS, for example, have to submit to genetic testing. It
would violate the Equal Protection Clause, and probably the Due Process
Clause and other constitutional provisions as well. As it has been
pointed out, blacks tend to pass on the genes for sickle cell anemia.
Just try to get a law requiring all blacks to submit to genetic
screening, and outlawing unions between carriers. And even if you
succeed in passing such a law, just try enforcing it.
Forced sterilization? Do you seriously want to turn this country into
Nazi Germany?
Yes, the FLDS apparently do have a tendency to pass on one serious
defect. The news reports say there are 20 children with this problem.
Twenty, out of a population of 10,000 people. What I haven't heard, and
I am extremely interested to learn, is what is their OVERALL birth
defect rate compared to the general population. If that one defect was
their only such problem, I'd venture to say that a birth defect rate of
two-tenths of one percent, while very sad for those who suffer wouldn't
be all that bad compared to the general population. I don't expect
that's the only problem, but I'd at least like to know the big picture
before castigating the whole group.
>>> At the time these laws came about, few children were born out of
>>> wedlock.
>>
>>
>> That's a pretty naive statement, but even if so, what is your point?
>
> The laws are antiquated. Naive? I think not. People were more religious
> in those days. Girls were chaperoned by adults or older brothers. Girls
> didn't date until they were 18. My own mother was not allowed to date
> until she was 18. Not until she was engaged to my father did they allow
> her to double date with another couple their age. She had to be home at
> 9 PM as did her girlfriends from school and church. People had better
> morals in those times but perhaps as a FLDS or Mormon you are not aware
> of that. My grandmother and her sister were escorted to and chaperoned
> in this country until marriage by their older brother.
>
As I understand it, one of the reasons for the FLDS to more or less
withdraw from the modern world is to keep their children from exposure
to the very rampant immorality you are decrying. Yes, I've read about a
half-dozen or so claims of forced underage marriages. Yes, I'd agree
that is wrong. But again, looking at the whole picture, how many of the
FLDS youth are sexually promiscuous? How prevalent are sexually
transmitted deseases in the group? How many FLDS have AIDS? How many
unwed pregnancies? How many of their youth die from drug overdoses, or
are killed in alcohol-related car accidents, or are members of street
gangs, or are involved in ANY kind of criminal activity? How many of
their youth are antisocial in any way, or even have bad manners? Yes,
again, forced marriages are wrong. Sexual abuse is wrong. But from all
news accounts about the kind of youth the group creates, they must be
doing something right too.
Zedwa...@gmail.com
"Founders Effect" More then inbreeding. The Amish have MUCH worse
birth defect issues then the FLDS.