FAITHFUL MORMON???

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Lance Ferm

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Aug 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/22/99
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At this point Willard Richards, who was now the only one permitted to
pass in and out of the jail, brought word to Joseph that Ford had broken his
promise and was off to Nauvoo without him. The prophet realized that he was
trapped almost beyond hope. There was only one lean trump left in his hand,
which he now feared he had waited too long to play. Hastily he scribbled an
order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion, break the jail, and save him
at all costs. Within seconds two messengers bearing this order and the
letter to Emma were off at a frantic gallop on the fifteen-mile trip to
Nauvoo.
Dull and heavy-spirited, the prisoners finally sent for some wine, and
all except Hyrum sipped a little. When Richards handed the bottle to the
guard, he started down the stairs. At that moment there was a noise at the
outer door, followed by shouts to surrender and the sound of shots.
It was not the Nauvoo Legion galloping up for a dramatic rescue. For
some reason never divulged, Jonathan Dunham had pocketed the order and
neglected to act upon it, and no other man in Nauvoo knew of his prophet's
peril.

History of the Church, Vol. VII, page 101.
Rocky Mountain Saints, page 164.
No Man Knows My History, page 392.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wakeupcall/


Lance Ferm

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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1 + 1 + 1 = 3

Joe Smith wrote a note which was given to Jonathan Dunham by Willard
Richards.

No Man Knows My History, page 392.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wakeupcall/

Jeffrey Jackson <jef...@ipass.net> wrote in message
news:wjmw3.1127$tp2....@news.ipass.net...
> So let's actual follow Lance's logic.
>
> (According to Lance), Fact 1: Willard Richards is the ONLY one permitted
to
> enter in and out of the Jail.
>
> (According to Lance), Fact 2: The Prophet Joseph was trapped and betrayed
by
> Governor Ford.
>
> (According to Lance), Fact 3: The Prophet Joseph wrote a note, gave it to
> Jonathan Dunham and sent him to bring the Nauvoo Legion.
>
> (Logical Question to ask): How could Jonathan Dunham leave the Jail? Lance
> just told us that ONLY Willard Richards was permitted to enter in and out
of
> the Jail. Remember also that Lance said that Joseph gave the note to
> Jonathan. Was the Prophet Joseph outside the Jail? Or perhaps, the Prophet
> Joseph was never there at all?
>
> Remember, we have a published account from a newspaper in Richmond,
Indiana
> that the Prophet Joseph died during Zion's Camp of mortification. AND the
> newspaper NEVER retracted its headline story. Very Interesting how the
plot
> thickens.
>
>
>
>


Jeff Jackson

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99
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But that is not what you wrote in your initial post as you quoted Brodie.
You said that Joseph gave the note to Jonathan Dunham and told him to
deliver it. Thus leaving him stranded inside with Joseph.

Are you stating that Brodie got it wrong?

I wonder if there could be other areas? Thanks for enlightening us!


Lance Ferm <wakeu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7q9h5m$o4n$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

PatentWorm

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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Jeff Jackson <jef...@ipass.net> wrote in message
news:sily3.1266$tp2....@news.ipass.net...

> But that is not what you wrote in your initial post as you quoted Brodie.
> You said that Joseph gave the note to Jonathan Dunham and told him to
> deliver it. Thus leaving him stranded inside with Joseph.
>
> Are you stating that Brodie got it wrong?
>
> I wonder if there could be other areas? Thanks for enlightening us!
>

Thanks for sending a right hook right into Lance's solar plexis. It hit
hard.

TheJordan6

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99
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>From: "Jeff Jackson" <jef...@ipass.net>
>Date: Sun, 29 August 1999 09:40 PM EDT
>Message-id: <sily3.1266$tp2....@news.ipass.net>

>
>But that is not what you wrote in your initial post as you quoted Brodie.
>You said that Joseph gave the note to Jonathan Dunham and told him to
>deliver it. Thus leaving him stranded inside with Joseph.
>
>Are you stating that Brodie got it wrong?
>
>I wonder if there could be other areas? >Thanks for enlightening us!

"Because Governor Ford had permitted Joseph to use the debtor's apartment in
jail and allowed several of the prophet's friends access to him, it was
possible to smuggle messages out of Carthage. Realizing time was precious,
Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering him to call
out the Legion and march on the jail immediately. Dunham received the
communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the command. One of the
Legionnaires, Allen Stout, said, 'Dunham did not let a single man or mortal
know that he had received such orders and we were kept in the city under arms
not knowing but all was well.'
"Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order was found
in a Nauvoo street and read."
(Orrin Porter Rockwell, Son of God, Man of Thunder, p. 130.)

Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him from the
Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men outside the
jail were his own followers. That is why he ran to the window and displayed
the Masonic/Mormon distress signal, in hopes that they would recognize and
rescue him.
He was wrong.

If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you wouldn't have to
ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.

Randy J.

russe...@my-deja.com

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99
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In article <19990831120518...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,

thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:
> >From: "Jeff Jackson" <jef...@ipass.net>
> >Date: Sun, 29 August 1999 09:40 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <sily3.1266$tp2....@news.ipass.net>
> >
> >But that is not what you wrote in your initial post as you quoted
Brodie.
> >You said that Joseph gave the note to Jonathan Dunham and told him to
> >deliver it. Thus leaving him stranded inside with Joseph.
> >
> >Are you stating that Brodie got it wrong?
> >
> >I wonder if there could be other areas? >Thanks for enlightening us!
>
> "Because Governor Ford had permitted Joseph to use the debtor's
apartment in
> jail and allowed several of the prophet's friends access to him,

So it wasn't just Willard Richards who could come and go?

Clearly Brodie *has* got things wrong. I wonder how far it goes?

> it was
> possible to smuggle messages out of Carthage. Realizing time was
precious,
> Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering him
to call
> out the Legion and march on the jail immediately.

To whom did he dictate this note? What does that person have to say
about it?

> Dunham received the
> communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the command. One of
the
> Legionnaires, Allen Stout, said, 'Dunham did not let a single man or
mortal
> know that he had received such orders and we were kept in the city
under arms
> not knowing but all was well.'
> "Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order
was found
> in a Nauvoo street and read."

Indeed? Who found it? How long afterwards?

Wasn't it careless of Dunham to simply drop the note in the street
where anyone could find it? Why didn't he keep it safely out of the
way, or destroy it?

Where is the note now?

And why didn't the person to whom Joseph supposedly dictated the note
come forward to expose Dunham's perfidy?

> (Orrin Porter Rockwell, Son of God, Man of Thunder, p. 130.)

I think that's supposed to be "Man of God, Son of Thunder."

Where can we find the contents of the actual note published?

> Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him
from the
> Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men
outside the
> jail were his own followers.

Sure, blacked faces and all.

ROTFLOL!

Of course he "assumed" that. One would have thought that the bullets
flying in the window might lead him to suspect that they were not too
kindly disposed towards him. Likewise, the fact that no-one was trying
to interfere with the guys charging up the stairs and shooting in the
door might also give him pause; but why should mere facts upset your
novel theory?

> That is why he ran to the window and displayed
> the Masonic/Mormon distress signal,

Actually it was a Masonic distress signal; the "/Mormon" bit is a free
embellishment of your own.

> in hopes that they would recognize and
> rescue him.

In reality he was appealing to the better natures of the anti-Mormons,
an act now known to be an exercise in futility.

> He was wrong.

And aren't you pleased?

I must compliment you, Randy. You gloat so stylishly.

> If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you
wouldn't have to
> ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.
>
> Randy J.

Or make wild and unsupportable assumptions...

Russell C. McGregor
--
"Remember, brethren, that no man's opinion is worth a straw"
(Brigham Young)


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R. L. Measures

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99
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In article <19990831120518...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:

> >From: "Jeff Jackson" <jef...@ipass.net>
> >Date: Sun, 29 August 1999 09:40 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <sily3.1266$tp2....@news.ipass.net>
> >
> >But that is not what you wrote in your initial post as you quoted Brodie.
> >You said that Joseph gave the note to Jonathan Dunham and told him to
> >deliver it. Thus leaving him stranded inside with Joseph.
> >
> >Are you stating that Brodie got it wrong?
> >
> >I wonder if there could be other areas? >Thanks for enlightening us!
>
> "Because Governor Ford had permitted Joseph to use the debtor's apartment in

> jail and allowed several of the prophet's friends access to him, it was


> possible to smuggle messages out of Carthage. Realizing time was precious,
> Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering him to call

> out the Legion and march on the jail immediately. Dunham received the


> communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the command. One of the
> Legionnaires, Allen Stout, said, 'Dunham did not let a single man or mortal
> know that he had received such orders and we were kept in the city under arms
> not knowing but all was well.'
> "Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order was found
> in a Nauvoo street and read."

> (Orrin Porter Rockwell, Son of God, Man of Thunder, p. 130.)
>

> Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him
from the
> Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men outside the

> jail were his own followers. That is why he ran to the window and displayed
> the Masonic/Mormon distress signal, in hopes that they would recognize and
> rescue him.
> He was wrong.


>
> If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you wouldn't
have to
> ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.
>

€ It seems that the thinking has been done, Randy

--
- Rich... 805.386.3734. www.vcnet.com/measures, remove plus from adr.

Raleigh345

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
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In article <meas+ures-310...@port82.dial.vcnet.com>,

meas...@vcnet.com (R. L. Measures) writes:

>Realizing time was precious,
>> Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering him to
>call
>> out the Legion and march on the jail immediately. Dunham received the
>> communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the command.

"Tellyportation! How quaint!"
Tom Baker as "the Doctor"
in THE BRAIN OF MORBIUS.
*
Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong....


Glenn Thigpen

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
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"R. L. Measures" wrote:
>
> In article <19990831120518...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
> thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:
<snip>

> > Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him
> from the
> > Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men outside the
> > jail were his own followers. That is why he ran to the window and displayed
> > the Masonic/Mormon distress signal, in hopes that they would recognize and
> > rescue him.
> > He was wrong.
> >
> > If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you wouldn't
> have to
> > ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.
> >
> ? It seems that the thinking has been done, Randy

>
> --
> - Rich... 805.386.3734. www.vcnet.com/measures, remove plus from adr.

Now we get into mind reading.

Glenn

russe...@my-deja.com

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Sep 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/3/99
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In article <37CDCF62...@mail.icomnet.com>,

Glenn, if you're referring to Randy's assumptions about what Joseph
assumed, then I would point out that without such mind-reading, you
really can't make an anti-Mormon argument out of an anti-Mormon
atrocity.

If you're referring to Rich's statement, I didn't think he was
mind-reading; I thought he was projecting.

TheJordan6

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Sep 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/3/99
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>From: Glenn Thigpen <gle...@mail.icomnet.com>
>Date: Wed, 01 September 1999 09:14 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37CDCF62...@mail.icomnet.com>

>
>"R. L. Measures" wrote:
>>
>> In article <19990831120518...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
>> thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:
><snip>
>> > Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him
>> from the
>> > Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men
>outside the
>> > jail were his own followers. That is why he ran to the window and
>displayed
>> > the Masonic/Mormon distress signal, in hopes that they would recognize
>and
>> > rescue him.
>> > He was wrong.
>> >
>> > If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you wouldn't
>> have to
>> > ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.
>> >
>> ? It seems that the thinking has been done, Randy
>>
>> --
>> - Rich...

> Now we get into mind reading.


"Elder Heber C. Kimball, who had been a Mason since 1823, has said of the
martyrdom:

Joseph and Hyrum were Master Masons, yet they were massacred through the
instrumentality of some of the leading men of that fraternity, and not one soul
of them has ever stepped forth to administer help to me or my brethren
belonging to the Masonic Institution, or to render us assistance, although
bound under the strongest obligations to be true and faithful to each other in
every case and under every circumstance, the commission of crime excepted.
Yes, Masons, it is said, were even among the mob that murdered Joseph and Hyrum
in Carthage Jail. Joseph, leaping the fatal window, gave the masonic call of
distress. The answer was the roar of his murderers' muskets and the deadly
balls that pierced his heart.
In 1878, Zina Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I
am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage
Jail, pierced with bullets, made the Masonic sign of distress, but those signs
were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.'
They gave us a city charter,' said Heber C. Kimball, 'and then took it from us
again, and that too without any just cause. They gave us a charter for a
Masonic lodge, and then went to work and killed some of the men to whom the
charter was given.'
When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum
Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O
Lord My God!' This was not the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did
not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near,
started to repeat the distress signal of the Masons, expecting thereby to gain
the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress."

(Mormonism and Masonry, pp. 16-17, as quoted in "Fate of the Persecutors of the
Prophet Joseph Smith", p. 65.).

Those of us who can read, don't have to read minds, Glenn.

Randy J.

TheJordan6

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99
to
Russell wrote:

>Glenn, if you're referring to Randy's assumptions about what Joseph
>assumed, then I would point out that without such mind-reading, you
>really can't make an anti-Mormon argument out of an anti-Mormon
>atrocity.

I've really enjoyed your "mind-reading" on BOM population figures and horse and
steel use, Russell.

Randy J.

russe...@my-deja.com

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99
to
In article <19990905215947...@ng-bd1.aol.com>,

Well Randy, if you think you can answer my arguments on that subject,
feel free to try: on *that* thread.

Your problem for *this* thread is to answer *these* arguments, which
you have failed to address. Here they are again, so you get a second
chance:

> "Because Governor Ford had permitted Joseph to use the debtor's
apartment in
> jail and allowed several of the prophet's friends access to him,

So it wasn't just Willard Richards who could come and go?

Clearly Brodie *has* got things wrong. I wonder how far it goes?

> it was
> possible to smuggle messages out of Carthage. Realizing time was


precious,
> Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering him
to call
> out the Legion and march on the jail immediately.

To whom did he dictate this note? What does that person have to say
about it?

> Dunham received the


> communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the command. One of
the
> Legionnaires, Allen Stout, said, 'Dunham did not let a single man or
mortal
> know that he had received such orders and we were kept in the city
under arms
> not knowing but all was well.'
> "Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order
was found
> in a Nauvoo street and read."

Indeed? Who found it? How long afterwards?

Wasn't it careless of Dunham to simply drop the note in the street
where anyone could find it? Why didn't he keep it safely out of the
way, or destroy it?

Where is the note now?

And why didn't the person to whom Joseph supposedly dictated the note
come forward to expose Dunham's perfidy?

> (Orrin Porter Rockwell, Son of God, Man of Thunder, p. 130.)

I think that's supposed to be "Man of God, Son of Thunder."

Where can we find the contents of the actual note published?

> Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him


from the
> Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men
outside the
> jail were his own followers.

Sure, blacked faces and all.

ROTFLOL!

Of course he "assumed" that. One would have thought that the bullets
flying in the window might lead him to suspect that they were not too
kindly disposed towards him. Likewise, the fact that no-one was trying
to interfere with the guys charging up the stairs and shooting in the
door might also give him pause; but why should mere facts upset your
novel theory?

> That is why he ran to the window and displayed
> the Masonic/Mormon distress signal,

Actually it was a Masonic distress signal; the "/Mormon" bit is a free
embellishment of your own.

> in hopes that they would recognize and
> rescue him.

In reality he was appealing to the better natures of the anti-Mormons,


an act now known to be an exercise in futility.

> He was wrong.

And aren't you pleased?

I must compliment you, Randy. You gloat so stylishly.

> If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you


wouldn't have to
> ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.
>

> Randy J.

Or make wild and unsupportable assumptions...

Russell C. McGregor

TheJordan6

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99
to
>> I've really enjoyed your "mind-reading" on BOM population figures and
>>horse and steel use, Russell.

> Randy J.

>Well Randy, if you think you can answer my arguments on that subject,
>feel free to try: on *that* thread.

Uhhh...I did so, Russell, about a week ago. I haven't seen a response from
you. Others have commented on my posts, so I assume you read them as well.

>Your problem for *this* thread is to answer *these* arguments, which you
have >failed to address.

I haven't "failed to address" anything. I didn't see anything in your post
that was particularly worthy of responding to, or that you couldn't discover
the answers to by doing a little homework on your own, without depending on
me to hold your hand and furnish to you every excruciating detail of Mormon
history.
All you did was raise picky questions on details of historical events that
have been published time and time again. Your picky, insignificant questions
add nothing to the discussion, nor change the historical facts, but were only
thrown in as red herrings, obfuscating the larger issues, as you do on
practically every subject you post on. I feel no obligation to answer all of
them, if I don't deem it necessary to.

>Here they are again, so you get a second chance:

Well, since you seem to want to know every detail of every moment of the last
hours of JS' life, I'll try to help you out a little and tell you what I
know. Or, at least, others who are less bullheaded than yourself may learn a
little something.

>>"Because Governor Ford had permitted Joseph to use the debtor's
>>apartment in jail and allowed several of the prophet's friends access to
him,

>So it wasn't just Willard Richards who could come and go?

"The evening of the twenty-sixth was spent very pleasantly by the prisoners
and their friends---John Taylor, Willard Richards, John S. Fullmer, Stephen
Markham and Dan Jones....Cyrus Wheelock visited Carthage Jail early on the
morning of the 27th, and when he departed for Nauvoo to secure witnesses and
documents for the impending trial of treason, he left with the prisoners an
old-fashioned, pepper-box revolver....Dan Jones was sent to Quincy by the
Prophet with a letter to lawyer O. H. Browning, applying for his professional
services in the pending trial....Stephen Markham...held a pass from the
governor to go in and out of the jail at pleasure. This left but Elders
Richards and Taylor with the Prophet and his brother in the prison." (The
Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, BH Roberts, p. 307, 313.)

"In the Carthage Jail on the morning of June 27th Joseph Smith wrote a letter
to his wife, reassuring her that, if there was an attack, *some of the
militia would remain loyal.* Later he and Hyrum entertained several
visitors, including Cyrus H. Wheelock, who, fearing an attack on the jail,
slipped a pistol into Joseph's pocket."
(Carthage Conspiracy, Dallin H. Oaks, p. 20.)

"The Mormons arriving to visit the jail were always searched, but John
Fullmer had smuggled in a single-shot pistol for Joseph, and about ten
o'clock Cyrus H Wheelock arrived with a raincoat over his arm. When the
jailer, Stigall, shut the door and went downstairs, Wheelock pulled an Allen
patent six-shooter from the raincoat pocket and gave it to Joseph. The
prophet took it, then gave the single-shot pistol to Hyrum. Little Dan
Jones, who'd gone out for another talk with the governor, was refused
admittance to the jail on returning." (Nightfall at Nauvoo, Samuel Taylor,
p. 253.)

"(Stephen) Markham then went out, and he was also prevented from
returning...He went, I am informed, to Nauvoo *for the purpose of raising a
company of men for our protection.* Brother Fullmer went to Nauvoo after
witnesses; it is my opinion that Brother Wheelock did also." (John Taylor,
as quoted in "Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," p. 197.)

>Clearly Brodie *has* got things wrong. I wonder how far it goes?

What on earth has Fawn Brodie got to do with this? I haven't quoted a word
from Brodie. Open comment to ARMekites: This is one of Russell's infamous
strawmen----injecting a name like "Brodie" into a conversation, though she
had previously not been quoted from or even mentioned, knowing that his
fellow dullard Mobots will
knee-jerk think "Oh, this must be where Randy is getting his information, and
we all know Brodie is an "anti-Mormon" writer, and everything she wrote is a
bald-faced lie, so Russell is being a valiant soldier by dropping her name
into the conversation." The same objective is accomplished by merely
mentioning the names "Hurlburt", "Quinn," or "Tanner" to dullard Mobots as
well. Mobots don't want to know the FACTS; they want a scapegoat to blame
the facts ON. By merely interjecting the name of "Brodie", however
irrelevantly, Russell appeals to the emotions and intellectual level of his
fellow dullard Mormons.

But since you brought Brodie up, I will quote her for the benefit of people
who may not have a copy:


"At this point Willard Richards, who was now the only one permitted to pass
in and out of the jail, brought word to Joseph that Ford had broken his
promise and was off to Nauvoo without him. The prophet realized that he was

trapped almost beyond hope. There was only one lean trump left in in his

hand, which he now feared he had waited too long to play. Hastily he
scribbled an order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion, break the jail,

and save him at all costs. Within seconds two mesengers bearing this order

and the letter to Emma were off at a frantic gallop on the fifteen-mile trip

to Nauvoo." (No Man Know My History, p. 392.)

Now, Russell, did you read anything there that you want to discredit?

>> it was possible to smuggle messages out of Carthage. Realizing time was
>>precious, Joseph dictated a note to Major General Jonathan Dunham ordering
>>him to call out the Legion and march on the jail immediately.

>To whom did he dictate this note?

"Willard saw Joseph writing quickly at the table, in the emergency not
waiting for his scribe. Joseph folded the letter, sealed it with a daub of
red wax, then wrote on the front of it the name of General Jonathan Dunham."
(Nightfall at Nauvoo, Samuel Taylor, p. 254.)

>What does that person have to say about it?

He said "O Lord my God," when he realized that his note had been
disregarded---which was seconds before he was shot to death.

>>Dunham received the communication in Nauvoo but failed to carry out the
>>command. One of the Legionnaires, Allen Stout, said, 'Dunham did not let a
>>single man or mortal know that he had received such orders and we were kept
in >>the city under arms not knowing but all was well.'
>>"Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order was
found
>>in a Nauvoo street and read."

>Indeed? Who found it?

None of the refererences I have state who found the note. Since Allen Stout
is mentioned in connection with the event, I assume he was the man, or
perhaps Dan Jones.

>How long afterwards?

"Dunham's act came to light after the martyrdom when Joseph's order was found

in a Nauvoo street and read." (Orrin Porter Rockwell, Harold Schindler, p.
130.)

>Wasn't it careless of Dunham to simply drop the note in the street where
anyone >could find it?

"As Dunham opened the letter and stared at the page, his face frozen,
Wheelock asked what it was that was upsetting. Then Dunham looked up, and
quickly ascertained that Wheelock didn't know the contents, except that
Brother Joseph had said that it was important.....Dunham stood in the street,
trembling with the enormity of his decision. With shaking hands he took
Joseph's letter from his pocket and unfolded it. The letter directed him to
bring the Legion to Carthage, immediately and with utmost speed, in
sufficient force to protect the lives of the men in jail from mob action.
Yet for the Legion to ride out in defense of the prophet--taking the law into
its own hands, challenging the authority of the county and the state---would,
Dunham was sure, precipitate war. Such an act would bring upon the Saints a
repetition of the horrors of the Missouri war and expulsion. General Jonathan
Dunham simply could not obey this order from his commander in chief. With
hands shaking, it was difficult to fold the letter again, and as he was doing
so he dropped the new rifle into the dust. He poked the crumpled letter into
a pocket and picked up the gun, then brought out a handkerchief to wipe off
the dust. The letter came out of the pocket, unnoticed, with the
handkerchief, and the wind caught it and blew it into the weeds beside the
roadway as he walked along wiping off the gun." (Nightfall at Nauvoo, p.
257.)

>Why didn't he keep it safely out of the way, or destroy it?

You've gone to the well once too often, Russell. I don't know everything.
Why don't you conjure up the spirit of Jonathan Dunham and ask him yourself?

>Where is the note now?

I have no idea. Maybe it's locked up in GBH's vault with all the other
embarrassing Mormon historical documents.

>And why didn't the person to whom Joseph supposedly dictated the note come
>forward to expose Dunham's perfidy?

Because JS wrote it himself. I wouldn't call Dunham's act "perfidy," I'd
call it conscience and good thinking. His refusal to obey JS' order probably
saved dozens of Mormon lives.

>>(Orrin Porter Rockwell, Son of God, Man of Thunder, p. 130.)

>I think that's supposed to be "Man of God, Son of Thunder."

You're right; but a more appropriate title would have been "Man of Murder,
Son of a Bitch."

>Where can we find the contents of the actual note published?

I do not know. I'd like to see it myself. Maybe it's not "faith-promoting"
to the cause of portraying JS as a martyr who went to his death
unresistingly, so the owners decline to publish it.

>>Having sent the note to Dunham to send the Nauvoo Legion to rescue him from
>>the Carthage Jail, it is likely that Joseph Smith assumed that the men
outside >>the jail were his own followers.

>Sure, blacked faces and all. ROTFLOL!

Since JS knew that his Nauvoo Legionnaries would be committing an act of
insurrection by storming the jail, it's reasonable to believe that JS thought
they would have disguised themselves for the attack. Also, it was the
twilight of the evening, and the entire event took only a few seconds, so JS
likely didn't have time to notice or worry about their face makeup.

>Of course he "assumed" that. One would have thought that the bullets flying
in >the window might lead him to suspect that they were not too kindly
disposed >towards him.

By that time, he knew that escape via the stairway was impossible; appealing
to possible Mormon/Masons in the crowd below was his last hope. For all JS
knew, the men outside were his Legionnaires that he had sent for.

>Likewise, the fact that no-one was trying to interfere with the guys
charging up the >stairs and shooting in the door might also give him pause;
but why should mere >facts upset your novel theory?

The entire incident took less than two minutes; with the exchange of gunfire,
JS likely had no time to think one way or the other about anything but saving
his life by any means possible. His hope that the men outside were his, was
his only chance to live, since the men coming up the stairs obviously weren't
his. Not a theory at all, Russell, just making a logical deduction based on
the facts of the incident.

>>That is why he ran to the window and displayed the Masonic/Mormon distress
>>signal,

>Actually it was a Masonic distress signal; the "/Mormon" bit is a free
>embellishment of your own.

Since JS plagiarized Masonic signals, oaths, and penalties, and used them in
both his Danite band and his temple ceremony, it's entirely appropriate to
label them as "Mormon/Mason."

>>in hopes that they would recognize and rescue him.

>In reality he was appealing to the better natures of the anti-Mormons, an
act now >known to be an exercise in futility.

To repeat---for all JS knew, the men outside were the Nauvoo Legion that he
had sent for to rescue him. Since his actions of going to the window, making
the distress signal, and being shot, only took a few seconds, he likely
didn't have time to consider whether the men outside were friend or foe. All
he knew was that they were his only hope.

>>He was wrong.

>And aren't you pleased?

I don't care one way or the other. I'm interested in getting the facts of
the incident out to the public. But the facts obviously paint a very
different picture of the "martyr", going to his death "like a lamb to the
slaughter."

>I must compliment you, Randy. You gloat so stylishly.

You pontificate so pointlessly.

>>If you people would just read some histories of Mormonism, you wouldn't
have to
>>ask stupid questions or make ignorant comments.

>>Randy J.

>Or make wild and unsupportable assumptions...

>Russell C. McGregor

Whether my documentation is "wild and unsupportable assumptions" is up to the
individual reader of the information, subject to their own beliefs and biases.

One more bit of information that is relevant to the issue-----immediately
after the murders, the mob scattered, in fearful anticipation of the Nauvoo
Legion's appearance. Willard Richards and John Taylor owed their lives to
that fact, as the mob would surely have returned to the cell and killed them
as well, if not for their rush to leave the area to avoid a shootout with the
Legion. That indicates that someone in the mob knew, or believed, that the
Legion had been sent for. What they DID NOT know is that Dunham declined to
follow JS' order.

"Joseph smuggled out a note by Willard Richards, the only Mormon still able
to go out of the jail, asking Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion. If Dunham
had acted on the prophet's order, and brought the Legion galloping the
fifteen miles to Carthage, history would have had to record a battle, and
perhaps the beginning of a civil war. But Dunham for some reason never
brought the Legion, and instead of a battle there was a martyrdom. The
noises that Willard Richards, John Taylor and the two Smiths heard at the
door---the shouts and shots and calls to surrender---were not the Legion
thundering to the rescue, but the Warsaw militia."
("The Gathering of Zion", Wallace Stegner, pp. 29-30.)

As I have written before----Mormon apologists want to compare JS' death with
those of the Christian martyrs. The facts show clearly that JS didn't
"choose to die," or go to his death "like a lamb to the slaughter," but that
he intended for his 4,000-man private army to storm the jail and free him.
His last conscious act was not to resign his fate, or to pray to God to
"receive his spirit," as a martyr might do, but rather to try to save his
life, even killing two of his attackers. Therefore, he wasn't a "martyr."
Martyrs choose to die.

Randy J.


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