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Trib article today on MMM

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FAWNSCRIBE

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:35:51 AM5/19/01
to
http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm

Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
Fawn

Clifford D. Statum

unread,
May 19, 2001, 10:58:49 AM5/19/01
to

While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
I didn't think so.

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 19, 2001, 12:14:20 PM5/19/01
to
In article <20010519093551...@ng-xc1.aol.com>,
fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote:

€ the apologies were lame from the church that is undoubtedly to blame.

--
- Rich... 805.386.3734.
www.vcnet.com/measures

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 19, 2001, 12:16:41 PM5/19/01
to
In article <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>, clif...@netdoor.com
(Clifford D. Statum) wrote:

€ The Haun's Mill Massacre was not committed by a corporation.

Bryce

unread,
May 19, 2001, 4:58:01 PM5/19/01
to

"Clifford D. Statum" wrote:

If it's any help, Missouri did recently apologize for Governor Boggs'
extermination order.


Posted from NetWORLD Connections, Inc.

Bryce

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May 19, 2001, 5:02:12 PM5/19/01
to

FAWNSCRIBE wrote:

"[The massacre] is what it is. In the war atmosphere in which the
tragedy occurred, the people involved, emigrants, militiamen,
Indians,
were what they were -- flawed, fragile and fearful," [Robert Briggs]
said.

Interesting quote, if you recall who was responsible for the "war
atmosphere." Brigham's "conquer or die" mentality simply wouldn't let
him relinquish power to the newly appointed government officials.

CommUnitarian

unread,
May 19, 2001, 6:54:40 PM5/19/01
to
D. Statum) writes:

>While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
>every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
>I didn't think so.
>

When one has control of media on a national basis, rather than merely
statewide, one can make a massacre disappear. Then one doesn't have to
apologize for it.


Raleigh
Do you see persons wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for fools than for them.
--Proverbs 26:12 NRSV

CommUnitarian

unread,
May 19, 2001, 6:54:39 PM5/19/01
to
In article <2-1905010...@port76.dial.vcnet.com>, 2...@vc.net (R. L.
Measures) writes:

>€ The Haun's Mill Massacre was not committed by a corporation.

Careful, Rich. Do you know when the Corporation of the President was first
incorporated? Hint. Utah was not part of the U.S. and not officially subject to
U.S. law governing formation of corporations in the 1840's.

Prior to incorporation, the prophet's family held title to church property as
trustees. Incorporation appears to have been a step away from cult status, and
from monarchy to oligarchy.

TheJordan6

unread,
May 19, 2001, 8:24:16 PM5/19/01
to
>From: clif...@netdoor.com (Clifford D. Statum)
>Date: 5/19/2001 10:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>

The man who was responsible for the Haun's Mill massacre was killed on June 27,
1844.

Randy J.

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 19, 2001, 8:59:48 PM5/19/01
to
In article <20010519185439...@nso-mm.news.cs.com>,
grale...@cs.comRLDS (CommUnitarian) wrote:

> In article <2-1905010...@port76.dial.vcnet.com>, 2...@vc.net (R. L.
> Measures) writes:
>
> >€ The Haun's Mill Massacre was not committed by a corporation.
>
> Careful, Rich. Do you know when the Corporation of the President was first
> incorporated? Hint. Utah was not part of the U.S. and not officially
subject to
> U.S. law governing formation of corporations in the 1840's.
>
> Prior to incorporation, the prophet's family held title to church property as
> trustees. Incorporation appears to have been a step away from cult status, and
> from monarchy to oligarchy.
>

€ thanks, Raleigh. I should have said 'by an organized religion'.

cheers

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:00:52 PM5/19/01
to
In article <20010519202416...@ng-fc1.aol.com>,
thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:

€ Randy J. scores one bull's eye.

Darrick Evenson

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:04:19 PM5/19/01
to
The Mormon Church should apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre as soon
as the Missouri Wildcats apologize for killing Indian children (which is the
ultimate cause). Oops,forgot, the Missouri Wildcats were dead!
Darrick


fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote in message news:<20010519093551...@ng-xc1.aol.com>...

Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 19, 2001, 11:59:48 PM5/19/01
to
"R. L. Measures" wrote:

> In article <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>, clif...@netdoor.com
> (Clifford D. Statum) wrote:
>
> > On 19 May 2001 13:35:51 GMT, fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote:
> >
> > >http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
> > >
> > >Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> > >Fawn
> >
> > While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
> > every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
> > I didn't think so.
>

> ? The Haun's Mill Massacre was not committed by a corporation.
>

Neither was the MMM.

Glenn


CharlesSWaters

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:04:47 PM5/19/01
to

FAWNSCRIBE <fawns...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010519093551...@ng-xc1.aol.com...

> http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
>
> Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> Fawn

Couple of things. I myself don't believe that the Paiutes were involved in
the killings.

On the other hand, the state of Utah did not exist at the time and hence
calls for the state to apologize are useless.

I would like to see the evidence exhumed and reexamined without coercion to
reach some predetermined conclusion.

Anyway, the excuse that this wagon train(s) was guilty of doing in PPP is
garbage, and anyone who was involved in persecuting Saints in Missouri would
have to be at least about 20 years old to have even been breathing at the
time, so killing anyone between 8 and 20 was pure murder.

The advancing US army was not a positive event.

Cheers,
Charles

CharlesSWaters

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:07:50 PM5/19/01
to

Clifford D. Statum <clif...@netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com...

Bulls**t response. The murderous God of the Old Testament who became the
Loving God of the New Testament (after enduring what men endure) would not
have approved the murder of people who aren't even alive for Haun's Mill (or
were children then) - that includes most of the wagon party.

Cheers,
Charles

CharlesSWaters

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:11:07 PM5/19/01
to

TheJordan6 <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010519202416...@ng-fc1.aol.com...

Actually this 'man' sent a message to the leader of Haun's Mill to gather
with the rest of the saints. If that leader had obeyed that 'man', there
would have been no Haun's Mill massacre.

Cheers,
Charles

M Empey

unread,
May 20, 2001, 12:26:00 AM5/20/01
to
Bryce <bryce_a...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3B06DE59...@yahoo.com>...

Executive Order Number 44, aka the "extermination order", was formally
rescinded by governor Christopher Bond of Missouri on June 25,
1976....

John Manning

unread,
May 20, 2001, 1:31:34 AM5/20/01
to

The Mountain Meadows Massacre is just one of the lovely examples of the
'God's one true church'.

'FINAL' Doctrine about Black persons ala Brigham Young, aka, "Prophet of
God".

Polygamy.

False prophesies.

Masonic rituals in the name of Christ.

'Special' underwear.

Danite murders and terrorism.

Adultery by Joseph Smith.

Changes in doctrine (on-going).

'Corrections' to the Bible.

Lying about polygamy by the "Prophet of God", Joseph Smith.

Money requirements for attendance in "God's temple" AND TO GET TO
HEAVEN!?!.

Non existent elephants in the Book of Mormon. (Steel swords, chariots,
wheels, silk, horses [according to the book, in the millions], etc. -
also nonexistent.)

No Hebrew DNA in American Indians (as claimed in BOM times).

Book of Abraham absurdly illegitimate.
---

Please add to the list.
---

The arrogance and smug self-assuredness of this group is truly a sight
to see. Thought control works for these suckers.

John Manning

P.S. I was criticized for referring to the LDS Church as being like the
Nazis. The Nazis were more obvious in their open statements about others
(Jews, etc.). The LDS Church reaches early, the minds of children; the
family unit - and perpetuates a program of continuous on-going social,
'spiritual', political and economic indoctrination in the name of Jesus
Christ.

All you need to do is to read the hundreds of statements of LDS members
who have left and survived. Their horror is expressed in their own
words. There are numerous places. One of them is http:www\exmormon.org

Bryce

unread,
May 20, 2001, 2:26:47 AM5/20/01
to

CommUnitarian wrote:

> In article <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>, clif...@netdoor.com (Clifford
> D. Statum) writes:
>
> >While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
> >every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
> >I didn't think so.
> >
>
> When one has control of media on a national basis, rather than merely
> statewide, one can make a massacre disappear. Then one doesn't have to
> apologize for it.

Whatever feeds your persecution complex, Comm. BTW, would you please be so kind
as to tell the group just who this sinister man was who had control of each of
America's hundreds of independent newspapers?

I'll bet you five hundred ARM points that, if we consulted the record, Haun's
Mill was widely reported by most of the newspapers in Missouri. Double or nothing
says that at least three-fourths of the editorials categorically condemned the
massacre.

We do have ARM points, don't we?

John Manning

unread,
May 20, 2001, 2:39:18 AM5/20/01
to
My apologies. The correct address is: http://www.exmormon.org

John Manning

unread,
May 20, 2001, 2:40:59 AM5/20/01
to
My apologies. Here is the correct address: http://www.exmormon.org

R. L. Measures

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May 20, 2001, 10:11:43 AM5/20/01
to
In article <4ac0bf57.01051...@posting.google.com>,
darrick...@yahoo.com (Darrick Evenson) wrote:

> The Mormon Church should apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre as soon
> as the Missouri Wildcats apologize for killing Indian children (which is the
> ultimate cause). Oops,forgot, the Missouri Wildcats were dead!
> Darrick
>

€ now there's a new one.

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 20, 2001, 10:15:53 AM5/20/01
to
In article <3B074134...@beaufortco.com>, Glenn Thigpen
<glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote:

€ thanks, Glenn. The Corporation of the FP came later. I should have
said '... by an organized religion'.

cheers
> Glenn

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 20, 2001, 10:22:46 AM5/20/01
to
In article <3B0756B6...@cableone.net>, John Manning
<joh...@cableone.net> wrote:

> FAWNSCRIBE wrote:
> >
> > http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
> >
> > Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> > Fawn
>
> The Mountain Meadows Massacre is just one of the lovely examples of the
> 'God's one true church'.
>
> 'FINAL' Doctrine about Black persons ala Brigham Young, aka, "Prophet of
> God".
>
> Polygamy.
>
> False prophesies.
>
> Masonic rituals in the name of Christ.
>
> 'Special' underwear.
>
> Danite murders and terrorism.
>
> Adultery by Joseph Smith.

€ I have never seen any evidence that Joseph Smith, Junior's father was
a womanizer.
> ...
cheers

Tyler Waite

unread,
May 20, 2001, 11:24:13 AM5/20/01
to

> I would like to see the evidence exhumed and reexamined without coercion to
> reach some predetermined conclusion.

what would be the point of reexamining the evidence if the conclusions to come out of the reexamination were predetermined?

Do you mean establishing the goals of the research ahead of time?


FAWNSCRIBE

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May 20, 2001, 6:44:39 PM5/20/01
to
Subject: Re: Trib article today on MMM

From: clif...@netdoor.com (Clifford D. Statum)
Date: 5/19/2001 7:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let the one TRUE church then lead the way in how to do the honorable thing
correct?
The church claims to be true and then will not apologize for zip...even I was
raised to say "I'm sorry " if I accidentally bumped an old lady in the street
for Petes sake...If I bumped her and she fell and it was her FAULT for getting
in my way I would still say"I am so sorry..I didn't mean to hurt you..Let me
help you up"
This is sad and outrageous.
There have been countless massacres of folks ( especially Indians ) where
apologies were few and far between....but then again, ANYONE who would do such
things should apologize..but most WON'T if their PR image is more important
than decency
Fawn

FAWNSCRIBE

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May 20, 2001, 6:46:52 PM5/20/01
to
Subject: Re: Trib article today on MMM
From: darrick...@yahoo.com (Darrick Evenson)
Date: 5/19/2001 6:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <4ac0bf57.01051...@posting.google.com>

The Mormon Church should apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre as soon
as the Missouri Wildcats apologize for killing Indian children (which is the
ultimate cause). Oops,forgot, the Missouri Wildcats were dead!
Darrick


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have the Missouri wildcats ever claimed to be the one TRUE church and lead the
way spiritually?
Fawn

Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 20, 2001, 9:33:29 PM5/20/01
to
"R. L. Measures" wrote:

> In article <3B074134...@beaufortco.com>, Glenn Thigpen
> <glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote:
>
> > "R. L. Measures" wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>, clif...@netdoor.com
> > > (Clifford D. Statum) wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 19 May 2001 13:35:51 GMT, fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> > > > >Fawn
> > > >
> > > > While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
> > > > every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
> > > > I didn't think so.
> > >
> > > ? The Haun's Mill Massacre was not committed by a corporation.
> > >
> >
> > Neither was the MMM.
> >

> ? thanks, Glenn. The Corporation of the FP came later. I should have


> said '... by an organized religion'.
>

Now if you change that to read "by some members of an organized religion"
plus a few Indians, you will be pretty much on the money.

Glenn

FAWNSCRIBE

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May 20, 2001, 10:48:08 PM5/20/01
to
Subject: Re: Trib article today on MMM
From: Glenn Thigpen glen...@beaufortco.com
Date: 5/20/2001 6:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3B087069...@beaufortco.com>

"R. L. Measures" wrote:

Glenn


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have had MORE than enough evidence as to where the road leads Glenn..and
the LDS church has tiptoed around this just enough to let any reasonable
person see there is something wrong with the whole presnetation of this.
You make this out to be like these were a few lone rangers out there who were
bad boys.
Does the LDS church make speeches at monument sites and do major refutations
when a few lone ranger LDS TODAY get into some scrapes with the law?
This is a BIG stink..and Randy has shonw enough evidence that can hammer the
last nail..but you wont buy it because your faith in the church is stronger
than your desire to trust honesty
Fawn

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 21, 2001, 7:21:09 AM5/21/01
to
In article <3B087069...@beaufortco.com>, Glenn Thigpen
<glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote:

€ true enough provided:
1. you don't leave out that the killers were only following orders from
higher up.
2. the Paiutes were paid according to their contract with Brigham.

TheJordan6

unread,
May 21, 2001, 1:45:29 PM5/21/01
to
>From: "CharlesSWaters" cswater...@newsguy.com
>Date: 5/19/2001 9:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9e7ck...@enews2.newsguy.com>

Jacob Haun had entered into a mutual agreement with local non-Mormons to live
peacefully with each other. Therefore, Haun had no reason to fear. But what
Haun didn't know is that Smith and Rigdon had ordered out the "Danites" to burn
and pillage "Gentile" towns of MIllport and Gallatin, and to "consecrate" the
plunder to the "bishop's storehouse" in Far West.

If the Haun's Mill settlers had removed to Far West, they might have been
killed in the expected battle there. Smith and the "Danites" had retreated
into the town, and fortified it in anticipation of a battle "to the death."
It was only the coolheaded thinking of Mormon militia leader George Hinkle, and
the sensible negotiations by John Corrill and Redd Peck, that prevented a much
larger and devastating battle in Far West. If not for those men, whom Mormon
apologists now describe as "apostates," Joseph Smith and about 800 other
Mormons could have met their doom that day.

The reason that the (unauthorized, renegade) band of Missourians attacked the
Haun's Mill settlement was retaliation for the "Danite" raids. It was in
effect, a vigilante action. Obviously, the murder of innocents is tragic, and
cannot be excused; but the Missourians were motivated by the fact that the
Mormon population had burgeoned from 1,500 to about 12,000 during the year;
Mormons bloc voted in the August elections, in order to control all local
legislative and judicial seats, which would have eventually resulted in the
Missouri settlers being forced to leave the area; and the Mormons had boasted
since 1833 that the entire state of Missouri was to become their "New
Jerusalem," and that all non-believers must leave. The "Danite" burnings and
lootings drove the Missourians over the edge.
They had had enough of the Mormons' arrogant boasts, threats, and stealing, and
they treated the Haun's Mill Mormons as if they had been Smith or Rigdon
themselves.

(It's relevant to know that official state militiamen happened upon the scene
the day after the massacre, and they cared for the survivors, catching and
killing a hog for their use.)

It was Joseph Smith's promise of a "war of blood and gore from the Rocky
Mountains to the Atlantic," and Sidney Rigdon's threat of a "war of
extermination," that riled the Missourians to the point of committing the
massacre. Smith and Rigdon wanted a war, and they got one. Therefore, if you
want to blame anyone for the incident, blame the people who prosecuted the war.

Randy J.

TheJordan6

unread,
May 21, 2001, 1:48:21 PM5/21/01
to
>This is a BIG stink..and Randy has shown enough evidence that can hammer the

>last nail..but you wont buy it because your faith in the church is stronger
>than your desire to trust honesty
>Fawn

Don't confuse "faith" with "brainwashing," Fawn.

Randy J.

Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 21, 2001, 8:02:21 PM5/21/01
to
FAWNSCRIBE wrote:

>
> You have had MORE than enough evidence as to where the road leads Glenn..and
> the LDS church has tiptoed around this just enough to let any reasonable
> person see there is something wrong with the whole presnetation of this.
> You make this out to be like these were a few lone rangers out there who were
> bad boys.
> Does the LDS church make speeches at monument sites and do major refutations
> when a few lone ranger LDS TODAY get into some scrapes with the law?
> This is a BIG stink..and Randy has shonw enough evidence that can hammer the
> last nail..but you wont buy it because your faith in the church is stronger
> than your desire to trust honesty
> Fawn

Where is the honesty to trust, Fawn? Randy showed no evidence. His only
witness was John D. Lee, but Randy himself said that you could not trust the
testimony of someone who is guilty. (Even Lee did not say that Brigham Young was
the mastermind of the affair, he only stated it as his opinion.) For you, or
anyone else to buy into Randy's version of the truth, you have to accept as
gospel anything said against Brigham Young and totally ignore anything he or
anyone else says in his behalf. You also have to misread what Brigham was saying
in his journal about he Indians he met with in the first part of September.
And you also have to paint Brigham Young as an incredibly stupid man (which
he was most definitely not) to perpretrate something like the MMM when he knew
that an American calvalry detachment was already on the way for what purpose
Brigham did not know at the time, but felt that it was an invasion.
I would only hope that you are never before a jury that would be willing to
condemn you on such flimsy evidence, and flimsy it is.

Glenn


Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 21, 2001, 8:02:54 PM5/21/01
to
TheJordan6 wrote:

It also happens in the reverse, Randy.

Glenn

Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 21, 2001, 8:05:59 PM5/21/01
to
"R. L. Measures" wrote:

> ? true enough provided:


> 1. you don't leave out that the killers were only following orders from
> higher up.
> 2. the Paiutes were paid according to their contract with Brigham.
>

Orders from higher up? By whose word do we know this?
What contract and what evidence do you have of a contract and the payment
thereof?

Glenn


Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 21, 2001, 8:08:15 PM5/21/01
to
TheJordan6 wrote:

> >From: "CharlesSWaters" cswater...@newsguy.com
> >Date: 5/19/2001 9:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <9e7ck...@enews2.newsguy.com>
> >
> >
> >TheJordan6 <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20010519202416...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >> >From: clif...@netdoor.com (Clifford D. Statum)
> >> >Date: 5/19/2001 10:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> >> >Message-id: <3b0689e4...@news.netdoor.com>
> >> >
> >> >On 19 May 2001 13:35:51 GMT, fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
> >> >>
> >> >>Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> >> >>Fawn
> >> >
> >> >While this is no means justifies MMM, has anyone
> >> >every apologized for the Haun's Mill Massacre ?
> >> >I didn't think so.
> >>
> >> The man who was responsible for the Haun's Mill massacre was killed on
> >June 27,
> >> 1844.
> >
> >Actually this 'man' sent a message to the leader of Haun's Mill to gather
> >with the rest of the saints. If that leader had obeyed that 'man', there
> >would have been no Haun's Mill massacre.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Charles

>
>
> Randy J.

>

<snip all Randy;s fiction. woops, there's nothing left, except his name )

Glenn

FAWNSCRIBE

unread,
May 21, 2001, 7:46:56 PM5/21/01
to
Subject: Re: Trib article today on MMM
From: Glenn Thigpen glen...@beaufortco.com
Date: 5/21/2001 5:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3B09AC8D...@beaufortco.com>

FAWNSCRIBE wrote:

Glenn


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Circumstantial evidence can be FAR more damning that eyewitness evidence and i
HAVE sat on jury trials and the evidence offered about where this rigamarole of
a cover up leads is plain to those who have no vested INTEREST in anything but
the truth.
Trust misplaced is no virtue Glenn.
I didnt buy into Randys VERSION of truth..the material on the MMM is quite
extensive..and damning enough to have the LDS Church hierarchy give little
shivers of nervousness.
I dont thibk BY was stupid at all..I think he was crafty, cunning and a pompous
blowhard who would as soon as wipe out those he didnt like as whistle Dixie.
The evidence is FAR from flimsy but I think ( and i do like you..you are one of
my faves on ARM)...that short of Brigham saying in a journal
"I DID it!.And I'd do it again".you wouldnt believe it..and then if that WAS
penned in his journal..you'd say evil people with evil designs on truth set
the poor man up.
If you substituted ANYONES name BUT Brighams in this whole scenaario you'd be
crying for the FBI to investigate
Fawn

Hertzdonut

unread,
May 21, 2001, 10:22:45 PM5/21/01
to

"R. L. Measures" wrote:

> In article <4ac0bf57.01051...@posting.google.com>,
> darrick...@yahoo.com (Darrick Evenson) wrote:
>
> > The Mormon Church should apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre as soon
> > as the Missouri Wildcats apologize for killing Indian children (which is the
> > ultimate cause). Oops,forgot, the Missouri Wildcats were dead!
> > Darrick
> >
> € now there's a new one.
>

Oh yeah? And what about Ted Bundy? How can you expect the Mormon Church to
apologize if he doesn't.


This is called reducto ad absurdum-- taking the structure of someone's argument
and showing that it can produce absurd conclusions.

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 21, 2001, 10:37:54 PM5/21/01
to
In article <3B09AD67...@beaufortco.com>, Glenn Thigpen
<glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote:

> "R. L. Measures" wrote:
>
> > ? true enough provided:
> > 1. you don't leave out that the killers were only following orders from
> > higher up.
> > 2. the Paiutes were paid according to their contract with Brigham.
> >
>
> Orders from higher up? By whose word do we know this?

€ We know this by knowing that the organization has a military-type chain
of command. I.E., - the commander-in-chief controls all. John D. Lee
said the orders came from higher ups. Juanita Brooks said that the orders
had to have come from higher ups. If there had been a faction of
mormonite renegades who killed 120 men, women and children on their own
volition, Brigham would have excommunicated them ASAP.

> What contract and what evidence do you have of a contract and the payment
> thereof?
>

€ After the massacre, the Paiutes reportedly received payment in
livestock and $3500 worth of goods from the injun agent -- Brigham.

cheers, Glenn

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 21, 2001, 10:39:24 PM5/21/01
to
In article <3B09ADEF...@beaufortco.com>, Glenn Thigpen
<glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote:

€ The painful truth.

Clovis Lark

unread,
May 21, 2001, 11:48:40 PM5/21/01
to


Had Brigham been blessed with the same prosecution that finished John
Gotti's career, he'd have entered the clink forthwith. It would not have
taken a very savvy man to have ferretted out the fact that no significant
armed action took place in the Ootah territory without BY's approval. It
would have taken little effort to show the behavior of BY up to a year
after the event, a period in which he gladly took full possession of all
the cattle and other booty gleaned from the massacre and which concluded
with his personally supervised vandalizing of the memorial. Make no
mistake about it, BY was every bit the gangster.

> Glenn


CharlesSWaters

unread,
May 21, 2001, 11:15:07 PM5/21/01
to

Glenn Thigpen <glen...@beaufortco.com> wrote in message
news:3B09ADEF...@beaufortco.com...

It's not all *fiction*. Read the book, "The 1838 Missouri War".

Cheers,
Charles

TheJordan6

unread,
May 22, 2001, 8:56:08 AM5/22/01
to
>From: Glenn Thigpen <glen...@beaufortco.com>
>Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 20:08 EDT
>Message-id: <3B09ADEF...@beaufortco.com>

For those who aren't mind-numbed Mobots like Glenn---You can find the
documentation on every point in my post from the following sources:

"The Restored Church," by William R. Berrett

"The Papers of Joseph Smith," edited by Dean Jessee

"Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," by Harold Schindler

"Senate Document 189---Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial
Circuit of the State of Missouri, On the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and
Others, For High Treason, and Other Crimes Against That State"

"The Reed Peck Manuscript"

"History of the Church of Jesus Christ," by Bishop John Corrill"

"History of the Church," by John Whitmer

"An Address To All Believers in Christ," by David Whitmer

"The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri," by Stephen C. LeSueur

"A History of the Latter-Day Saints in Northern Missouri from 1836 to 1839," by
Leland Gentry

"The Gathering of Zion," by Wallace Stegner

"Kingdom of the Saints," by Ray B. West

"No Man Knows My History," by Fawn M. Brodie

"The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power," by Michael Quinn

"The Story of the Latter-Day Saints," by James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard

for starters.

Or, you can remain brainwashed like Glenn.

Randy J.

Clifford D. Statum

unread,
May 22, 2001, 9:49:09 AM5/22/01
to

Here's a little problem I have with the MMM affair.
Assuming that BY did have nothing to do with
planning the massacre, why is it that only John D.
Lee was executed ? You would think that BY
would have taken some measures against the
participants, excommunication if not arrest for
murder.

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 22, 2001, 9:49:42 AM5/22/01
to
In article <3B09CD75...@nomail.ooo>, Hertzdonut
<hertz...@nomail.ooo> wrote:

> "R. L. Measures" wrote:
>
> > In article <4ac0bf57.01051...@posting.google.com>,
> > darrick...@yahoo.com (Darrick Evenson) wrote:
> >
> > > The Mormon Church should apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre
as soon
> > > as the Missouri Wildcats apologize for killing Indian children
(which is the
> > > ultimate cause). Oops,forgot, the Missouri Wildcats were dead!
> > > Darrick
> > >
> > € now there's a new one.
> >
>
> Oh yeah? And what about Ted Bundy?

€ Ted was toasted in Florida's electric chair.

>How can you expect the Mormon Church to
> apologize if he doesn't.
>

€ The lds church still exists. Ted was burnt to a crisp.

cheers, Mr/Mrs/Miss H.


> This is called reducto ad absurdum-- taking the structure of someone's
argument
> and showing that it can produce absurd conclusions.

--
- Rich... 805.386.3734.
www.vcnet.com/measures

M Empey

unread,
May 22, 2001, 3:17:19 PM5/22/01
to
fawns...@aol.com (FAWNSCRIBE) wrote in message news:<20010519093551...@ng-xc1.aol.com>...

> http://www.sltrib.com/05192001/utah/98518.htm
>
> Boggle your eyes at the apologies AGAIN
> Fawn


It is amusing to watch the wrangling over how the facts relative to
the MMM should be interpreted, because neither side wants to
acknowledge the whole truth. Here it is per J Brooks:

FACT: Brigham Young and George A Smith did not specifically order the
masssacre.
FACT: Church leaders fanned the flames of war hysteria which made the
massacre possible.
FACT: The Fancher Party was most unfortunate in passing through when
war hysteria was at its height.
FACT: The Fancher Party's own attitude, temperament, and reckless acts
fanned the frenzy and helped provoke the violence against them.
FACT: Brigham Young did not order the massacre and would have
prevented it if he could.
FACT: Brigham Young was accessory after the fact in that he knew what
had happened and how.
FACT: Church leaders made Lee a token sacrifice when they realized
that they could not acquit him without taking some responsibility
themselves.

It's time for both sides to stop being so selective about the truth in
this matter, and stop using it to further their own agendas. It's
only fair to all those involved....

R. L. Measures

unread,
May 22, 2001, 6:06:16 PM5/22/01
to
In article <9ecnio$u9a$2...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, Clovis Lark
<cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:

€ Well put, Clovis. To me, the most hilarious thing about this
megalomaniac-murderer is that he supposedly has to approve each person
before he/she is allowed to enter heaven -- no foolin'.

Glenn Thigpen

unread,
May 22, 2001, 8:04:07 PM5/22/01
to
FAWNSCRIBE wrote: