Transsexuality

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Willow

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Apr 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/16/99
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This is a serious question and serious replies only would be appreciated...

I am a Mormon - a "Jack Mormon" if you prefer. I have, of recent, been
considering returning to the Church.

Several years ago, I discovered I was transsexual. While born as a man, I
am in truth a woman. At this time, I am a "pre-op" transsexual; I have been
on hormones for over one year, live full time as a woman, but the final
operation to complete the process is some time away. In this regard, I have
found a happiness in my life that is above any that I have found before.

Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.

IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
the local Wards.

Now, this does raise some interesting questions, does it not? Firstly,
transsexuality is a recognized disorder according to the psychiatric
assessment manual and I have been so diagnosed. Medically, my condition IS
a condition, and not a choice. Secondly, can one, in one lifetime, be both
a male and female, and, within the teachings of the Church, a member of both
the Priesthood and the Relief Society. One could go on...

Naturally, one does not go where one is not wanted. I would not return to
the Church knowing that I would be scorned, ridiculed and (perhaps)
excommunicated. So, what then is the "official position" regarding my
status, or who do I contact regarding the same?

Willow

Tyler Waite

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Apr 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/16/99
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Willow <wil...@silk.net> wrote in message news:37178...@news.westel.com...

> This is a serious question and serious replies only would be
appreciated...
>
> I am a Mormon - a "Jack Mormon" if you prefer. I have, of recent, been
> considering returning to the Church.
>
> Several years ago, I discovered I was transsexual. While born as a man, I
> am in truth a woman. At this time, I am a "pre-op" transsexual; I have
been
> on hormones for over one year, live full time as a woman, but the final
> operation to complete the process is some time away. In this regard, I
have
> found a happiness in my life that is above any that I have found before.
>
> Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
> Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
> have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
>
> IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> my status?
My understanding is that the church while recognizing that some individuals
may be born with certain predispositions with regard to sexuality and sexual
orientation the individual must overcome those feelings and be true to the
gender that their outward body (that they were born with) says they are.
Which raises all sorts of other sticky issues for the church when the
persons outward appearance is ambiguous. My wife works in the nursery at a
local hospital and said that they had a baby with ambiguous genitalia the
other day. They were able to determine that the gonads were female but she
said the outward appearance of the genitals was definately ambiguous. Is it
ok for people born with ambiguous genitals to have reconstructive surgery to
make their physical appearance conform to their appropriate sex? Then there
is androgen insensitivity syndrome where the outward appearance of the
individual is female while the genetic makeup is male. But as far as I
understand things you would be expected to marry a woman, hold the
priesthood, raise kids, be the primary bread winner etc. As far as I
understand sex change operations are not
to be engaged in by members of the church. Not sure what they'd do to you
if you had the surgery ex, disfellowship, or just prevent you from holding
the priesthood or holding any leadership callings. I also don't know where
they would think you should attend RS or Priesthood since it is likely that
your presence would make individuals in both groups uncomfortable. You
would likely be expected to remain in priesthood and possible dress as a
man.

>Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
> the local Wards.
>
> Now, this does raise some interesting questions, does it not? Firstly,
> transsexuality is a recognized disorder according to the psychiatric
> assessment manual and I have been so diagnosed. Medically, my condition
>IS a condition, and not a choice.
But then they recognize Homosexuality as a "condition" and not a choice as
well
yet this hasn't caused the church to bend on that issue. So I doubt very
strongly you will get any sympathy for your condition in the church other
than counsel to try and overcome those feelings that make you think you are
really a woman and not a man.

>Secondly, can one, in one lifetime, be both
> a male and female, and, within the teachings of the Church, a member of
both
> the Priesthood and the Relief Society. One could go on...

No, if they knew you were previously a male they would likely expect you to
attend priesthood operation or not.

>
> Naturally, one does not go where one is not wanted. I would not return to
> the Church knowing that I would be scorned, ridiculed and (perhaps)
> excommunicated.

While I can't say for sure that you would be scorned or ridiculed your
choice to have a sex change operation would not be looked upon approvingly
and I doubt that your lifestyle choices would mesh very well with others in
the congregation so you would likely feel isolated and alone in the ward.
--Tyler remembering the Juriasi incident a few years ago.

Elizabeth & Dale

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Apr 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/16/99
to
>
> This is a serious question and serious replies only would be appreciated...
>
> I am a Mormon - a "Jack Mormon" if you prefer. I have, of recent, been
> considering returning to the Church.
>
> Several years ago, I discovered I was transsexual. While born as a man, I
> am in truth a woman. At this time, I am a "pre-op" transsexual; I have been
> on hormones for over one year, live full time as a woman, but the final
> operation to complete the process is some time away. In this regard, I have
> found a happiness in my life that is above any that I have found before.
>
> Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
> Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
> have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
>
> IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of

> the local Wards.
>
> Now, this does raise some interesting questions, does it not? Firstly,
> transsexuality is a recognized disorder according to the psychiatric
> assessment manual and I have been so diagnosed. Medically, my condition IS
> a condition, and not a choice. Secondly, can one, in one lifetime, be both

> a male and female, and, within the teachings of the Church, a member of both
> the Priesthood and the Relief Society. One could go on...
>
> Naturally, one does not go where one is not wanted. I would not return to
> the Church knowing that I would be scorned, ridiculed and (perhaps)
> excommunicated. So, what then is the "official position" regarding my

> status, or who do I contact regarding the same?
>
> Willow


Golly, have you chosen a hard row to hoe or what? If Scott Quantz were here
on a.r.m. at the moment he might be able to draw upon his own varied past
lives to try and get on your wave-length. But I think the rest of us armites
can only wing it, and hope we end up somewhere in the right ball-park.

I would expect that someday, in the not too distant future, "transexuality"
of several kinds and shades will indeed be "diagnosed" -- though not so much
as a disorder than as an example one of those rarities of nature from which
we all might learn and grow.

Whether the collected wisdom of the LDS Church has anything useful to say
about this or not, I cannot say. Folks there might (I'm not sure) be slightly
more sympathetic if you were a true hermaphrodite -- or if your diagnosed
genetic make-up were markedly different from most physical "men." If your
personal orientation grew out of unusual early childhood experiences, rarities
of role-modeling, or sexual experimentation a bit later on, they might not be
quite so sympathetic to your "condition" -- though perhaps just as much as
most folks to your individual personhood as a child of God.

Perhaps you and others in the same boat should be regarded as treasures -- in
fact, in Hellenistic times, the greatest gift a living person could aspire to
was that of Hermes/Aphrodite -- the one who had experienced both maleness and
femaleness and thus transcended both.

Wish I could be of more help. That my female side were a bit stronger, so I
could understand better. But, lacking that, all I can say is God go with you.
May you find the pathway meant for you and may the rest of us learn from you.

Dale Richard Broadhurst
(a reorganized Latter Day Saint)

Willow

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Apr 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/16/99
to
Dear Dale,

Thank you for your reply...

I shall send you an article from the local newspaper which may explain some
thing off group, but suffice to say...

>Golly, have you chosen a hard row to hoe or what?

Not a choice, not a bit. Given a choice, I would have selected cancer or
some other dread disease - much easier to explain to others and not as
emotionally draining. It is a condition of birth, not of choice...

>Folks there might (I'm not sure) be slightly
>more sympathetic if you were a true hermaphrodite -- or if your diagnosed
>genetic make-up were markedly different from most physical "men." If your
>personal orientation grew out of unusual early childhood experiences,
rarities
>of role-modeling, or sexual experimentation a bit later on, they might not
be
>quite so sympathetic to your "condition"

Well, I denied it for almost fifty years. That too caused problems. Then
came a trip overseas to the third world. Things go wrong in such places and
I had to endure six weeks of sexual abuse and rape. Subsequent therapy
helped with the Post Traumatic Stress problems, but out popped
transsexuality. In retrospect, this was a blessing - a special talent given
to a few to understand and BE both genders. My former "personality" was in
essence destroyed, and Willow emerged.

"Orientation" is again not applicable. That involves other issues. A TS is
not gay or lesbian (and just where do you measure). In fact, I may after
all is done be again heterosexual, or so the doctors say.

>Perhaps you and others in the same boat should be regarded as treasures --
in
>fact, in Hellenistic times, the greatest gift a living person could aspire
to
>was that of Hermes/Aphrodite -- the one who had experienced both maleness
and femaleness and thus transcended both.


Within our groups, we do. Each of us have gone through much and nobody
takes this course without a deep need. We do regard out "talent" as a
treasure - certainly I do. But the rest of the world is a bit different....

Willow

Tyler Waite

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
<snip>

> Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
> Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
> have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
>
> IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
> the local Wards.
A homosexual can change himself. I firmly believe that no one can cure a
deeply entrenched pervert except himself. The Lord will help, his servants
will help, and kind friends will help, but the major effort must come from
the individual who has the weakness.Kimball, Spencer W. The Teachings of
Spencer W. Kimball. Edited by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City, Utah:
Bookcraft, 1982.pg 276

I think that pretty much sums up the churches opinion on homosexual,
transexual, lesbianism, and any other form of "unnatural or unholy" sexual
practice.
--Tyler
<snip>
> Willow
>
>

Tyler Waite

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
<snip>

> IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
> the local Wards.
<snip>
> Willow
>
>
Transsexual operations are travesty. Then we're appalled to find an
ever-increasing number of women who want to be sexually men and many young
men who wish to be sexually women. What a travesty! I tell you that, as
surely as they live, such people will regret having made overtures toward
the changing of their sex. Do they know better than God what is right and
best for them? (74-27)
278
Some people are ignorant or vicious and apparently attempting to destroy the
concept of masculinity and femininity. More and more girls dress, groom, and
act like men. More and more men dress, groom, and act like women. The high
purposes of life are damaged and destroyed by the growing unisex theory. God
made man in his own image, male and female made he them. With relatively few
accidents of nature, we are born male or female. The Lord knew best.
Certainly, men and women who would change their sex status will answer to
their Maker. (74-30)
SWK Miracle of Forgiveness pg 278

Elizabeth & Dale

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
> <snip>
> > Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
> > Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
> > have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
> >
> > IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> > my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
> > the local Wards.
> A homosexual can change himself. I firmly believe that no one can cure a
> deeply entrenched pervert except himself. The Lord will help, his servants
> will help, and kind friends will help, but the major effort must come from
> the individual who has the weakness.Kimball, Spencer W. The Teachings of
> Spencer W. Kimball. Edited by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City, Utah:
> Bookcraft, 1982.pg 276
>
> I think that pretty much sums up the churches opinion on homosexual,
> transexual, lesbianism, and any other form of "unnatural or unholy" sexual
> practice.
> --Tyler
> <snip>
> > Willow
> >
> >


Tyler, you simply must start adding more line spaces to your reply messages.
I had a hard time distinguishing your words from the Prophet's in this one.
Heck, I have a hard time doing that even when non-Mormons post replies here.

Your Uncle Dale

Tyler Waite

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
> > "A homosexual can change himself. I firmly believe that no one can cure
a
> > deeply entrenched pervert except himself. The Lord will help, his
servants
> > will help, and kind friends will help, but the major effort must come
from
> > the individual who has the weakness."Kimball, Spencer W. The Teachings

>>of
> > Spencer W. Kimball. Edited by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City, Utah:
> > Bookcraft, 1982.pg 276
> >
> > I think that pretty much sums up the churches opinion on homosexual,
> > transexual, lesbianism, and any other form of "unnatural or unholy"
sexual
> > practice.
> > --Tyler
> > <snip>
> > > Willow
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Tyler, you simply must start adding more line spaces to your reply
messages.
> I had a hard time distinguishing your words from the Prophet's in this
one.
> Heck, I have a hard time doing that even when non-Mormons post replies
>here.
Sorry I forgot the quotation marks
>
> Your Uncle Dale

Tyler Waite

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to

Tyler Waite <twa...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:7fcqm9$oe1$1...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu...
> <snip>

> > IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church
regarding
> > my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any
of
> > the local Wards.
> <snip>
> > Willow
> >
> >
>" Transsexual operations are travesty. Then we're appalled to find an
> ever-increasing number of women who want to be sexually men and many young
> men who wish to be sexually women. What a travesty! I tell you that, as
> surely as they live, such people will regret having made overtures toward
> the changing of their sex. Do they know better than God what is right and
> best for them? (74-27)
> 278
> Some people are ignorant or vicious and apparently attempting to destroy
the
> concept of masculinity and femininity. More and more girls dress, groom,
and
> act like men. More and more men dress, groom, and act like women. The high
> purposes of life are damaged and destroyed by the growing unisex theory.
God
> made man in his own image, male and female made he them. With relatively
few
> accidents of nature, we are born male or female. The Lord knew best.
> Certainly, men and women who would change their sex status will answer to
> their Maker. (74-30)"
> SWK Miracle of Forgiveness pg 278
>
Just inserting quotes for anyone who may be confused about whether I was
quoting or paraphrasing.
--Tyler
>

Peggy Rogers

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
Elizabeth & Dale wrote:

> > <snip>
> > > Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
> > > Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case, hormones
> > > have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
> > >

> > > IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church regarding
> > > my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
> > > the local Wards.

> > A homosexual can change himself. I firmly believe that no one can cure a
> > deeply entrenched pervert except himself. The Lord will help, his servants
> > will help, and kind friends will help, but the major effort must come from

> > the individual who has the weakness.Kimball, Spencer W. The Teachings of


> > Spencer W. Kimball. Edited by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City, Utah:
> > Bookcraft, 1982.pg 276
> >
> > I think that pretty much sums up the churches opinion on homosexual,
> > transexual, lesbianism, and any other form of "unnatural or unholy" sexual
> > practice.
> > --Tyler
> > <snip>
> > > Willow
> > >
> > >
>
> Tyler, you simply must start adding more line spaces to your reply messages.
> I had a hard time distinguishing your words from the Prophet's in this one.
> Heck, I have a hard time doing that even when non-Mormons post replies here.
>

> Your Uncle Dale

Tyler, I want to back up Dale on this one. I get extremely confused
when I open one of your posts, expecting to read something that Tyler
has written, and instead run smack into the words of SWK. Talk about
cognitive dissonance! How about adding a disclaimer at the beginning,
saying something like, "Here's what Spencer W. Kimball had to say
about this in _The Miracle of Fogiveness_" or some such?

Peggy

Tyler Waite

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Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
to
>
> Tyler, I want to back up Dale on this one. I get extremely confused
> when I open one of your posts, expecting to read something that Tyler
> has written, and instead run smack into the words of SWK. Talk about
> cognitive dissonance! How about adding a disclaimer at the beginning,
> saying something like, "Here's what Spencer W. Kimball had to say
> about this in _The Miracle of Fogiveness_" or some such?
Again I apologize. Is it usually that bad? I thought I usually at least
put quotes around the parts that are from someone else and include the
reference at the end. I apologize for the confusion. I'll try to be better
about this in the future.
--Tyler
>
> Peggy

po...@close-inspection.freeserve.co.uk

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Apr 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/20/99
to

Tyler Waite wrote in message <7fcq3d$odb$1...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>...

><snip>
>> Some will confuse transsexuality with the issue of orientation.
>> Transsexuals may be gay or lesbian, or heterosexual. In my case,
hormones
>> have made me asexual - simply, it is of no interest or concern.
>>
>> IF I were to return, what is the official position of the Church
regarding
>> my status? Fearing the reaction, I have not and shall not contact any of
>> the local Wards.
>A homosexual can change himself. I firmly believe that no one can cure a
>deeply entrenched pervert except himself. The Lord will help, his servants
>will help, and kind friends will help, but the major effort must come from
>the individual who has the weakness.Kimball, Spencer W. The Teachings of
>Spencer W. Kimball. Edited by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City, Utah:
>Bookcraft, 1982.pg 276
>


I beg to differ with Kimball. It is my experience that one is entirely
powerless to change oneself without relying 100% on God to do the work.
However, change can and does happen.

Homosexuality is a condition that has nothing to do with biology or genetics
but rather, is psychological in nature, lying deep within one's psyche.
Homosexuality cannot be cured, but the underlying problems and issues can be
dealt with. Once these are understood and healed (again 100% the work of
God) then homosexual desires deminish because their cause has gone.

There's a wealth of reading on this subject, anybody who wants to know of
some good books, give me a private email.

Oh, and for all those lurking, I'm not willing to engage in a "can you
really be ex-gay" discussion, so don't bother.

Peter (pink was never my colour anyway) Ould
po...@close-inspection.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.close-inspection.freeserve.co.uk

Of course, I could always start on the Jehovah's Witnesses....

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