Mountain Meadows Massacre Postscript

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Kevin Simonson

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Jun 10, 2003, 3:58:29 PM6/10/03
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As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
_Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
for a long time.

Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
and children.

Don't get me wrong on this. I believe the Mountain Meadows Mas-
sacre was a horrible crime, an extremely cowardly act. John D. Lee
got what he deserved when he was executed for the atrocity. If jus-
tice had been served, Isaac Haight, William Dame, and perhaps John
Higbee would also have been executed on the same day.

But look at something for a moment. The Haun's Mill Massacre was
committed out in the open. That mob didn't care _who_ saw them murder
helpless LDS settlers. On the other hand the LDS participants in the
Mountain Meadows Massacre went to _great lengths_ to _hide_ what they
had done. They swore oaths that they would never talk about the mat-
ter. They killed as many of the Fancher Company that they thought
were old enough to tell what had happened.

And yet here, 145 years after the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Bag-
ley has _pictures in his book_ of seven people responsible for the
massacre, Isaac Haight, William Dame, John D. Lee, John Higbee, Philip
Klingensmith, Nephi Johnson, and Dudley Leavitt. You can get the
names of half a dozen others who were at Mountain Meadows 11 September
just by looking Leavitt up in Bagley's index and finding the context
of where his name's mentioned.

Is there anybody out there who can provide a _single name_ of
_one_ of the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre?!

Once again, let me reiterate. The killings on 11 September 1857
were an atrocious, cowardly crime, and John D. Lee deserved to die for
it. But wasn't Haun's Mill a crime too? Why were none of the murder-
ers at Haun's Mill even _named for posterity_, let alone brought to
justice? Bagley's book also mentioned the (fairly public) murder of
Parley P. Pratt. Why wasn't _his_ murderer brought to justice? Why
weren't the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith?

The LDS Church from its earliest days existed in a fishbowl. A
different standard was applied to them than was applied to the rest of
the American public. Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.

All I ask for is equal time. Sure the Mountain Meadow Massacre
was grossly wrong. But let's call the atrocities committed against
the LDS Church equally wrong, and admit that in the past we haven't
paid enough attention to them.

---Kevin Simonson

"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_

Joe

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Jun 10, 2003, 4:25:15 PM6/10/03
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> Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
>and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
>Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.

LOL! Dammit, how come everyone else gets to commit murders. There is a
really, really, really, reall,y old saying. "Two wrongs don't make a
right."

McSorley

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Jun 10, 2003, 5:39:56 PM6/10/03
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"Joe" <j...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:833ffa1e49db40b1...@free.teranews.com...

Its sad when someone puts some time and thought to a post and makes point
hoping to get a rational answer and then gets your post.

How many times did he say he knows both act were wrong? Why do you want to
sound envious of those who commit murders? Don't you help prove his point
by posting "who cares, two wrongs don't make a right"? Why don't you care
that it is unequal? is it because it favors your side?

McSorley


€R.L. Measures

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Jun 10, 2003, 7:37:22 PM6/10/03
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In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

** All of those killed at the Carthage Jail were Freemasons.

> The LDS Church from its earliest days existed in a fishbowl. A
> different standard was applied to them than was applied to the rest of
> the American public. Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
> and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
> Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.
>

** Kevin plays the Persecution Card.

- "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted
whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


> All I ask for is equal time. Sure the Mountain Meadow Massacre
> was grossly wrong. But let's call the atrocities committed against
> the LDS Church equally wrong, and admit that in the past we haven't
> paid enough attention to them.
>

** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
(120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)

cheers, Kevin

--
Rich, AG6K, 805 386 3734, www.vcnet.com/measures
remove ^ from e-mail address

€R.L. Measures

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Jun 10, 2003, 7:39:37 PM6/10/03
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In article <833ffa1e49db40b1...@free.teranews.com>, Joe
<j...@hotmail.com> wrote:

** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt
the tide.

Iosepa Hawai'i Loa

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Jun 11, 2003, 1:37:18 AM6/11/03
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On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
> ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
> (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
> not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
> pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
>
> cheers, Kevin

The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph
Smith, Jr. As soon as the Prophet learned of their activities, he openly
condemned the Danites.

One more note: John D. Lee did not kill anyone at Mountain Meadows. His
gun jammed with the first shot. The true instigator was the stake
president. Haight told the bishops that Brigham Young authorized the
attacks.

Aloha,
Iosepa
--
:Ua mau ke ea o ka aina i ka pono.
:The life (sovereignty) of the land is perpetuated in (by) righteousness.

Dangerous1

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Jun 11, 2003, 3:17:54 AM6/11/03
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in article 4038fb6f22acc4efcbc564c98d0cda86@TeraNews, Iosepa Hawai'i Loa at
ios...@wingetsolutions.com wrote on 6/10/03 11:37 PM:

> On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
>> ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
>> (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
>> not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
>> pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
>>
>> cheers, Kevin
>
> The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
> were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph
> Smith, Jr. As soon as the Prophet learned of their activities, he openly
> condemned the Danites.


Like he openly condemned polygamy.

>
> One more note: John D. Lee did not kill anyone at Mountain Meadows. His
> gun jammed with the first shot.

Many throats were slit.


--
Cheers,
don marchant
dangerous1

"Dangerous1, you have a typical mormon attitude."
--Patrick V.

TheJordan6

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Jun 11, 2003, 5:51:17 AM6/11/03
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>From: kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson)
>Date: 6/10/2003 2:58 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>

>
>As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
>_Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
>Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
>for a long time.

> Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
>few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
>of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
>and children.
>
> Don't get me wrong on this. I believe the Mountain Meadows Mas-
>sacre was a horrible crime, an extremely cowardly act. John D. Lee
>got what he deserved when he was executed for the atrocity. If jus-
>tice had been served, Isaac Haight, William Dame, and perhaps John
>Higbee would also have been executed on the same day.

Not to mention Jacob Hamblin, Dimick Huntington, George A. Smith, Daniel H.
Wells, Jedediah M. Grant, and Brigham Young, among others.

> But look at something for a moment. The Haun's Mill Massacre was
>committed out in the open. That mob didn't care _who_ saw them murder
>helpless LDS settlers.

That's because the Missourians killed the Haun's Mill Mormons as an act of
retaliation against the Danites, who had just raided and pillaged non-Mormon
towns of Millport, Gallatin, and Grinders' Fork, who acted on the direct orders
of Joseph Smith, Jr.
Smith had vowed to wage "a war of blood and gore from the Rocky Mountains to
the Atlantic," and his Haun's Mill disciples reaped the whirlwind of his unwise
policies.

>On the other hand the LDS participants in the
>Mountain Meadows Massacre went to _great lengths_ to _hide_ what they
>had done. They swore oaths that they would never talk about the mat-
>ter.

And Brigham Young instructed John D. Lee to tell no one of the matter, even
Heber C. Kimball. And Brigham Young protected the participants from
prosecution for 19 years. And their oath of secrecy ws rooted in the
Masonic-like oaths they had taken in the endowment ceremony.

>They killed as many of the Fancher Company that they thought
>were old enough to tell what had happened.

Unfortunately for them, some of the surviving children were able to tell quite
a bit.

> And yet here, 145 years after the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Bag-
>ley has _pictures in his book_ of seven people responsible for the
>massacre, Isaac Haight, William Dame, John D. Lee, John Higbee, Philip
>Klingensmith, Nephi Johnson, and Dudley Leavitt. You can get the
>names of half a dozen others who were at Mountain Meadows 11 September
>just by looking Leavitt up in Bagley's index and finding the context
>of where his name's mentioned.

You can get the names of nearly all the MMM participants from Lee's
"Confessions."

> Is there anybody out there who can provide a _single name_ of
>_one_ of the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre?!

"No one knows who ordered the attack on Haun's Mill. The militia companies
that participated in the assault belonged to General Parks' brigade, but he did
not issue the order. The troops were organized under the command of Col.
Thomas Jennings, who apparently acted on his own iniatitive in leading the
attack. It is possible that the Missourians received word of Governor Boggs'
extermination order and took it upon themselves to carry out the decree, but
they never offered this as a reason for the raid.
(One problem with this theory is that there is no evidence indicating when
Governor Boggs' order became known to the Missourians. Generals Jackson,
Doniphan, and Lucas did not receive their orders from the governor until the
afternoon of 30 October, and they did not receive an official copy of the
extermination order until 31 October.)
"One of the attackers, Charles Ashby, a state legislator from Livingston, said
the Missourians attacked because Mormon dissenters fleeing into Livingston
warned them that the Saints at Haun's Mill were planning an invasion of their
county. Local citizens decided they must act to prevent Mormon soldiers from
overruning Livingston County as they had done Daviess. 'We thought it best to
attack them first,' Ashby told fellow legislators. 'What we did was in our own
defence, and we had the right to do so.'
"The Livingston troops were joined by companies from Daviess and Carroll
counties, Many of the Daviess men wanted to even the score for Mormon
depradations in their county. Capts. Nehemiah Comstock and William Mann, whose
troops had been harassing Mormon emigrants and settlers, also brought their
troops into the field."
("The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri," Stephen LeSeuer, U. of Missouri Press, pp.
163-164.)

I count the names of four Haun's Mill perpetrators in this quote.

> Once again, let me reiterate. The killings on 11 September 1857
>were an atrocious, cowardly crime, and John D. Lee deserved to die for
>it. But wasn't Haun's Mill a crime too?

Of course. Who ever said it wasn't?

>Why were none of the murder-
>ers at Haun's Mill even _named for posterity_, let alone brought to
>justice?

They have been named for posterity. I have just cited four of the names.
Perhaps the problem is not that they haven't been named, but that you haven't
bothered to do the research to learn their names.
The Haun's Mill attackers weren't brought to justice because mere days after
the raid, the main body of Mormons were evicted from the state, so the
relatives of the victims couldn't bring cases against the attackers. Of
course, if such cases had been brought to trial, testimony would probably have
been given about the depradations the Mormons had committed which led to the
massacre, and that testimony might have damaged the Mormons more than such
trials would have damaged Missourians. Parley P. Pratt, for instance, might
have been arrested for the murder of Moses Rowland during the Crooked River
skirmish.

In short, the Haun's Mill massacre, though tragic and unjustified, was
"collateral damage" in the Missouri War. There were depradations on both
sides.

>Bagley's book also mentioned the (fairly public) murder of
>Parley P. Pratt. Why wasn't _his_ murderer brought to justice?

Because Pratt was killed for messing around with another man's wife, Arkansans
viewed the murder as a "crime of passion," and declined to indict Hector
McLean.

>Why
>weren't the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith?

The instigators in the Smiths' murders are named in "Carthage Conspiracy," by
Dallin Oaks and Marvin Hill. Several of them were tried for the murders.
Like the MMM participants, the Smiths' killers refused to testify against each
other. And in those days, if you didn't have eyewitnesses who were willing to
testify, or confessions by the perpetrators, you didn't get conviction.
The only reason John D. Lee was convicted was because Brigham Young cut a deal
with prosecutors to "sacrifice" Lee if they agreed not to prosecute any other
Mormons.


> The LDS Church from its earliest days existed in a fishbowl. A
>different standard was applied to them than was applied to the rest of
>the American public.

No it wasn't. Mormons had the same rights and responsibilities as any other
Americans. The Mormons' 19th-century problems occurred because of their own
anti-social and criminal policies and behavior, not because of their religious
beliefs.

>Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
>and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
>Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.

But the Mormons DID avoid justice in the MMM. Even John D. Lee wouldn't have
been convicted if Brigham Young hadn't offered him up as a sacrifice.


> All I ask for is equal time. Sure the Mountain Meadow Massacre
>was grossly wrong. But let's call the atrocities committed against
>the LDS Church equally wrong, and admit that in the past we haven't
>paid enough attention to them.
>
> ---Kevin Simonson

When I was a Mormon, I heard about the Haun's Mill massacre regularly, but it
was always presented as being an instance of "religious persecution" against
Mormons. Church leaders and writers want rank-and-file Mormons to believe that
because they don't want you to investigate the true primary cause, which was
Joseph Smith's and Sidney Rigdon's criminal policies and orders, and that the
attack was an unauthorized act of retaliation committed by people whose towns
had just been looted and burned by Mormons.
By contrast, the MMM was an act of institutional violence, which was preached
and practiced by LDS church leaders all the way up to Brigham Young.

Randy J.

TheJordan6

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Jun 11, 2003, 6:25:58 AM6/11/03
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>From: Iosepa Hawai'i Loa ios...@wingetsolutions.com
>Date: 6/11/2003 12:37 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <4038fb6f22acc4efcbc564c98d0cda86@TeraNews>

>
>On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
>> ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
>> (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
>> not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
>> pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
>>
>> cheers, Kevin
>
>The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
>were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph
>Smith, Jr.

That is what nearly all Mormons believe, but it is completely false. Joseph
Smith and Sidney Rigdon were fully aware of, and in approval of the Danites
and their actions. Smith personally ordered the raiding and looting of
non-Mormon towns of Millport, Gallatin, and Grinder's Fork by the Danites,
which was the final straw that got the Mormons booted out of Missouri.

>As soon as the Prophet learned of their activities, he openly
>condemned the Danites.

That is what Smith claimed in his legal defense after he and other
Mormon/Danite leaders were arrested and charged with treason and murder at the
end of the "Missouri War."
However, numerous eyewitness participants testified that Smith led the Danites
and gave the orders.
Smith denied responsibility for them and attempted to blame an underling,
Sampson Avard, for their actions, only after Smith was arrested and was facing
capital murder charges.
Some time ago, I compiled some information about the origins of the Danite band
and Smith's part in it:

In the
spring of 1838, LDS leaders Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, having been run out
of Ohio because of the failure of their 'Anti-Banking Safety Society' and their
'United Order' communitarian system, escaped to the only other significant
group of Mormons, in western Missouri. Upon arriving, they immediately
attempted to institute a new version of a communistic system among their
Missouri disciples. Many of those disciples had been settled in Clay County,
after having been driven from Jackson County in 1834, and had bought land and
begun farms. Several of them, including leaders such as David Whitmer, W. W.
Phelps, John Whitmer (who were the Missouri stake presidency), Oliver Cowdery,
Lyman Johnson and others, were not interested in joining another communitarian
plan, perceiving that it would produce the same failures and financial disaster
that plagued the Kirtland attempt. Smith and Rigdon realized that if they
failed to gain full cooperation from them, that their dream of building their
"New Jerusalem", with them at the head of both 'spiritual' and 'temporal'
affairs of a hoped-for financial empire, would be dashed.
To prevent the same failures and apostasy that had plagued the Kirtland plan,
Smith and Rigdon implemented policies that called for unquestioning obedience
to leaders. Those who dissented from orders of superiors would be punished by
being driven from the area and/or "cut off" from the church.

In his "Brief History of the Church," former Mormon bishop John Corrill
recounted the situation:

"The Church in Caldwell had been doing well, with the exception of these
little difficulties among themselves, until the First Presidency came to
the Far West, and began to move things to their own notions. Many of the
Church had settled in Davies [Daviess] County, and to all appearance,
lived as peaceably with their neighbors as people generally do; but not
long after Smith and Rigden [Rigdon] arrived in Far West, they went to
Davies [Daviess] County and pitched upon a place to build a town.
L.[Lyman] Wight was already on the ground with his family. They laid out
a town and began to settle it pretty rapidly; Smith gave it the name of
Adamondiaman [Adam-ondi-Ahman], which he said was formerly given to a
certain valley, where Adam, previous to his death, called his children
together and blessed them. The interpretation in English is, "The valley
of God, in which Adam blessed his children." Many of the Church became
elated with the idea of settling in and round about the new town,
especially those who had come from Kirtland, as it was designed more
particularly for them. This stirred up the people of Davies [Daviess] in
some degree; they saw that if this town was built up rapidly it would
injure Gallatin, their county seat, and also that the Mormons would soon
overrun Davies [Daviess], and rule the county, and they did not like to
live under the laws and administration of "Joe Smith." Lyman Wight also
would frequently boast in his discourses of what they would do if the
mob did not let them alone,--they would fight, and they would die upon
the ground, and they would not give up their rights, etc.; when, as yet,
there was no mob. But this preaching inspired the Mormons with a
fighting spirit, and some of the other citizens began to be stirred up
to anger."

On Sunday, June 17, Sidney Rigdon delivered what has become known as his
infamous "Salt Sermon": "He mounted the speaker's stand in the town square and
exhorted his listeners to crush dissension and apostasy with cruel
determination....Selecting for his oration the theme, 'Ye are the salt of the
earth,' Rigdon, in a thinly-veiled threat to the dissenters, warned: 'if the
salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth
good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under the foot of
men.'...[Reed] Peck fills in the details of Rigdon's rhetoric: 'From this
scripture (Rigdon) undertook to prove that when men embrace the gospel and
afterwards lose their faith, it is the duty of the Saints to trample them under
their feet that have dissented from the church and were doing all in their
power to destroy the presidency...(he) called on the people to rise en masse
and rid the country of such a nuisance He said it is the duty of this people to
trample them into the earth and if the county cannot be freed from them any
other way I will assist to trample them down or to erect a gallows on the
square of Far West and hang them up---and it would be an act at which the
angels would smile with approbation.' ('Reed Peck Manuscript', pp. 24-25.)
"John Corrill sought out John Whitmer and warned him that trouble was in the
air. But the former church historian, unconvinced the Saints would turn on
him, refused to flee Far West...The following day the dissenters were handed an
ultimatum, drafted by Rigdon, demanding they pack and leave Far West."
("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.
38-39.)

Rigdon then persuaded some 84 loyal Mormons to affix their signatures to a
"Warning Against Dissenters," which read in part:
"To Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman
E. Johnson, greeting: Out of the county you shall go, and no power shall save
you. And you shall have three days after you receive this communication...for
you to depart with your families peaceably;...and unless you heed us,...there
shall be no escape; for there is but one decree for you, which is depart,
depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you...we will put you from the
county of Caldwell: so help us God."

"The document was signed by 84 men, more or less prominent in the
church....those 84 citizens of Caldwell County were not justified in taking the
law into their own hands and under threats of vengeance driving these
dissenters from Far West..." (B. H. Roberts, "Comprehensive History of the
Church," vol. 1, 439.)

"In all probability, the eighty-three signers of the ultimatum comprised the
charter members of the Danite Society which grew to include an estimated four
hundred men. Ebenezer Robinson, a close associate of Joseph's during these
troubled times, said, 'The above manifesto was signed by 83 determined men.
Among the names we recognize some of the members of the high council, and
others holding high positions in the church, including that of Hyrum Smith, one
of the First Presidency.' Robinson himself was one of the letter's
signatories." (Schindler, p. 39.)

David Whitmer added his own account of those times:
"In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members
had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them
for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting,
and for my labors I received only persecutions. In June, 1838, a secret
organization was formed, Doctor Avard being put in as the leader of the
band; a certain oath was to be administered to all the brethren to bind
them to support the heads of the church in every thing they should
teach. All who refused to take this oath were considered dissenters from
the church, and certain things were to be done concerning these
dissenters, by Dr. Avard's secret band."

David's brother and counselor John, who was also the official church historian,
concurred with David's account:

"Joseph Smith, Jr., S. Rigdon and Hyrum Smith moved their families to
this place, Far West, in the spring of 1838. As soon as they came here,
they began to enforce their new organized plan, which caused dissensions
and difficulties, threatenings and even murders. Smith called a council
of the leaders together, in which council he stated that any person who
said a word against the heads of the Church, should be driven over these
prairies as a chased deer by a pack of hounds, having an illusion to the
Gidionites, as they were termed, to justify themselves in their wicked
designs. Thus on the 19th of June, 1838, they preached a sermon called
the salt sermon, in which these Gideonites understood that they should
drive the dissenters, as they termed those who believed not in their
secret bands, in fornication, adultery or midnight machinations."

After the end of the Missouri conflict, several former Danites revealed the
wording of the secret initiation oath to which David Whitmer referred:

"In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I now promise and swear, truly,
faithfully, and without reserve, that I will serve the Lord with a perfect
heart and a willing mind, dedicating myself, wholly, and unreservedly, in my
person and effects, to the upbuilding of His kingdom on earth, according to His
revealed will. I furthermore promise and swear that I will regard THE FIRST
PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, as the SUPREME
HEAD OF THE CHURCH on earth, and OBEY HIM the same as the Supreme God, IN ALL
WRITTEN REVELATIONS given under the solemnities of a 'Thus saith the Lord,' and
that I WILL ALWAYS UPHOLD THE PRESIDENCY, RIGHT OR WRONG. I furthermore
promise and swear that I will never touch a daughter of Adam, unless she is
given me of the Lord. I furthermore swear that no Gentile shall ever be
admitted to the secrets of this HOLY INSTITUTION or participate in its
blessings. I furthermore promise and swear that I will assist the Daughter of
Zion [Sons of Dan] in the utter destruction of apostates, and that I will
assist in setting up the kingdom of Daniel in these last days, by the power of
the Highest and the sword of His might. I furthermore promise and swear that I
will never communicate the secrets of this degree to any person in the known
world, except it be to a true and lawful brother, binding myself UNDER NO LESS
PENALTY THAN TO HAVE MY BLOOD SHED. So help me God and keep me faithful."
(Schindler, pp. 46-47.)

Upon Smith's arrest and incarceration in Liberty Jail, he claimed in his legal
defense that Sampson Avard, not himself or Rigdon, was the instigator of the
Danite band and its violent acts. While in jail, Smith wrote a letter in which
he purported to disavow "secret combinations":
"I would further suggest the impropriety of the organization of bands or
companies, by COVENANT OR OATH, by PENALTIES OR SECRECIES; but let the time
past of our experience and sufferings by the wickedness of Doctor Avard suffice
and let our covenant be that of the Everlasting Covenant, as contained in the
Holy Writ and the things that God hath revealed to us. Pure friendship always
becomes weakened the very moment you undertake to make it stronger by PENAL
OATHS AND SECRECY." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 146.)

Careful research reveals that Smith's denial of responsibility for the Danites
was an outright falsehood, designed purely to shift blame for his insurrection
in Missouri onto the subordinate Avard. Note that in his defense, Smith
purportedly disavowed "covenants or oaths....penal oaths and secrecy," while to
the contrary, those familiar with Mormon culture are well aware that Smith's
temple endowment ceremony, which he introduced a mere three years later in
1842, included what he had publicly purported to discourage---"penal oaths and
secrecy." Also, the Danite initiation oath quoted above reveals similiarities
to wording, concepts, and oaths in Smith's later temple ceremony, which further
indicates that the two oaths originated in the same mind--Joseph Smith's.

In addition, Smith's own journal reveals that he spoke approvingly of the
"Danites," from his entry of
"27 July 1838--Friday--Some time past the brethren or saints have come up day
after day to consecrate, and to bring their offerings into the store house of
the lord, to prove him now herewith and see if he will not pour us out a
blessing that there will not be room enough to contain it, They have come up
hither (p. 60) Thus far, according to the (Revelater) [revelation] order of
the Danites, we
have a company of Danites in these times, to put right physically that which is
not right, and to cleanse the Church of very great evils which hath hitherto
existed among us inasmuch as they cannot be put right by teachings and
persuasions, This company or a part of them exhibited on the fourth of July
They come up to consecrate, by companies of tens, commanded by their captain
over ten."
("The Papers of Joseph Smith," vol. 2, p. 262, Deseret Book, 1992, ed. by Dean
Jessee.)

LDS historian Jessee's footnote to this entry reads:

"The part of this entry following 'p. 60' has been crossed out in the original
manuscript, evidently by a later hand."

The crossing out of Smith's favorable reference to the "company of the Danites"
is proof positive that someone---likely Smith himself---did so to eliminate
evidence of Smith's involvement with the criminal band. Fortunately, Dean
Jessee has restored the entry to its original, so we can see that Smith lied in
Liberty Jail when he attempted to cast Avard as the founder of the Danites.

A lifelong faithful Mormon, Allen Stout, told of the founding and purpose of
the Danites in his journal:

"The Church was organized under captains tens, fifties, one hundreds, and one
thousands. This made the inhabitants mad to see us making ready to defend
ourselves. They called our organization the Danite band. I belonged to the
third fifty led by Reynolds Cahoon. On the 4th of July [1838], Sidney Rigdon
delivered his declaration of independence, which enraged the mob worse than
ever, so that by fall the whole country was under arms."

Note Stout's confirmation that "the Church" itself organized the Danites,
rather than the alleged "renegade" Avard. The organization into "tens,
fifties, one hundreds, and one thousands," is the same setup that the Mormon
military units continued into Illinois and then Utah, and was still in force
during the Utah War, and the MMM. IOW, "Danites" was really just the Missouri
period secret name for the military arm of Smith's organization. LDS historian
Leland Gentry wrote that some members of the "Danite" band also served in the
state-run militia:

"The so-called 'Armies of Israel' created at Far West and Adam-ondi-Ahman by
order of General Alexander Doniphan were later confused with the Danites. The
confusion was natural, since both groups were broken down into smaller units
and since many Danites also belonged to the legitimte militia." ("A History of
the Latter-Day Saints in Northern Missouri," p. 362.)

Thus, while some Mormon men served in the official state militia, they
simultaneously and surreptitiously held membership in the underground
"Danites," who swore complete obedience to the "First Presidency of the
Church." The "Danites" were in effect, Joseph Smith's private army. It was
those "Danites" who drove off Mormon dissenters such as David and John Whitmer,
Oliver Cowder, Lyman Johnson, etc.; it was "Danites" who brought out oaken
clubs during the August 8 election in
Gallatin, beating "Gentiles" senseless; it was "Danites" who burned and looted
"Gentile" towns of Millport and Gallatin that fall; and it was "Danites," led
by Mormon apostles David Patten, Lyman Wight, and Parley P. Pratt, who attacked
state militiamen at Crooked River, which spurred Governor Boggs to issue his
"Extermination Order." Apostle Patten was mortally wounded in the battle, and
as he lay dying on October 28, he was treated by none other than Dr. Sampson
Avard---with Joseph Smith standing by his side. That fact further makes
Smith's later assertion that he excommunicated Avard as soon as he found out
what the "Danites" were doing a complete lie. Smith and his top leaders were
arrested on October 31, and Avard was still treating wounds from the "Danite"
battle of October 28, just three days earlier. That makes it obvious that
Smith concocted the idea to blame the "Danites" on Avard only after he had been
arrested and was facing charges of treason and murder.

>One more note: John D. Lee did not kill anyone at Mountain Meadows. His
>gun jammed with the first shot.

That's what Lee claimed, but other Mormons testified that Lee shot victims as
well. You need to realize that only one Mormon, Nephi Johnson, ever admitted
to actual killing in the MMM. All the rest, including Lee, shaded their guilt
in the crime.

>The true instigator was the stake
>president.

William Dame was the man on-scene giving the orders, but the "true instigator"
of the MMM was Brigham Young.

> Haight told the bishops that Brigham Young authorized the
>attacks.
>
>Aloha,
>Iosepa

Haight was told that by William Dame, according to Lee.

Randy J.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 11, 2003, 6:58:49 AM6/11/03
to
In article <4038fb6f22acc4efcbc564c98d0cda86@TeraNews>, Iosepa Hawai'i Loa
<ios...@wingetsolutions.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
> > ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
> > (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
> > not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
> > pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
> >
> > cheers, Kevin
>
> The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
> were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph
> Smith, Jr.

** guffaw

>As soon as the Prophet learned of their activities, he openly
> condemned the Danites.

** History tells us that, before sunrise, at his office in Nauvoo, Smith
regularly received a wagon load of pillage, quite probably from the Danite
Band. The Danite Oath bears the literary fingerprint of the same person
who dictated the Book of Mormon, as well as the Take Ten Virgins
Revelation of 1843. Smith openly condemned the Danites only after they
became too well known.

>
> One more note: John D. Lee did not kill anyone at Mountain Meadows. His
> gun jammed with the first shot.

** The women and children were reportedly not killed with firearms.
Their skelatal remains indicate cut marks on bones. The skulls of adult
male victims indicate holes made by high speed projecticles.

>The true instigator was the stake
> president. Haight told the bishops that Brigham Young authorized the
> attacks.

** ... which is precisely the way the Church's military-style command
structure works -- i.e., such an order must come from the
Commander-in-Chief.. If Haight had originated the order himself, Brigham
would undoubtedly have turned Haight in to the Feds in order to avoid
implicating the Church. Instead, Brigham denied Mormons were involved.
>
cheers, Iosepa

€€ Free, unsolicited advise from an old fart: Believe not everything
you read or you are told.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 11, 2003, 6:59:59 AM6/11/03
to
In article <BB0C33C2.3105%dange...@dangerous1.com>, Dangerous1
<dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote:

> in article 4038fb6f22acc4efcbc564c98d0cda86@TeraNews, Iosepa Hawai'i Loa at
> ios...@wingetsolutions.com wrote on 6/10/03 11:37 PM:
>
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
> >> ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
> >> (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
> >> not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
> >> pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
> >>
> >> cheers, Kevin
> >
> > The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
> > were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph
> > Smith, Jr. As soon as the Prophet learned of their activities, he openly
> > condemned the Danites.
>
>
> Like he openly condemned polygamy.
>

** excellent lampoon. congrats.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 11, 2003, 5:14:49 PM6/11/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-1006031...@192.168.1.201>...

=> Is there anybody out there who can provide a _single name_ of
=> _one_ of the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre?!
=>
=> Once again, let me reiterate. The killings on 11 September 1857
=> were an atrocious, cowardly crime, and John D. Lee deserved to die for
=> it. But wasn't Haun's Mill a crime too? Why were none of the murder-
=> ers at Haun's Mill even _named for posterity_, let alone brought to
=> justice? Bagley's book also mentioned the (fairly public) murder of
=> Parley P. Pratt. Why wasn't _his_ murderer brought to justice? Why
=> weren't the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith?
=>
=** All of those killed at the Carthage Jail were Freemasons.

I'm still waiting, R.L. Please give me a _single name_ of one of
the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre.

=> The LDS Church from its earliest days existed in a fishbowl. A
=> different standard was applied to them than was applied to the rest of
=> the American public. Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
=> and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
=> Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.
=>
=** Kevin plays the Persecution Card.

So, R.L., when John D. Lee, John Higbee, et al got 123 emigrants
to disarm and then shot them in cold blood, you wouldn't call that
persecution?

=> All I ask for is equal time. Sure the Mountain Meadow Massacre
=> was grossly wrong. But let's call the atrocities committed against
=> the LDS Church equally wrong, and admit that in the past we haven't
=> paid enough attention to them.
=>
=** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
=(120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
=not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
=pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)

So, R.L., are you saying that prejudice is okay? If a group of
people, say Jews, belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal
raids to burn and pillage their neighbors, say the radical Zionist
element that predated modern Israel, and if therefore a group of peo-
ple massacre 17 Jewish men, women, and children, then it's understand-
able why that group might not be even named in the history books, let
alone ever brought to justice?

Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 11, 2003, 5:20:29 PM6/11/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-1006031...@192.168.1.201>...

=> > Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
=> >and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
=> >Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.
=>
=> LOL! Dammit, how come everyone else gets to commit murders. There is a
=> really, really, really, reall,y old saying. "Two wrongs don't make a
=> right."
=
=** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt
=the tide.

Come on, R.L., try me. I don't believe you ever tried arguing
with _me_ about the MMM.

What happens? You try arguing with a "TBM" about the MMM and the
"TBM" does what?

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 12, 2003, 8:07:29 AM6/12/03
to
In article <20030611055117...@mb-m10.aol.com>,
thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:

> >From: kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson)
> >Date: 6/10/2003 2:58 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>
> >

> >...


> >They killed as many of the Fancher Company that they thought
> >were old enough to tell what had happened.
>
> Unfortunately for them, some of the surviving children were able to tell quite
> a bit.
>

** Any man who thinks that a 7-year old would not remember seeing his/her
father shot in the head and seeing his/her mother's throat cut is probably
letting someone else do his thinking.

Denial of reality, the great human malady.e

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 12, 2003, 8:27:27 AM6/12/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-1006031...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => Is there anybody out there who can provide a _single name_ of
> => _one_ of the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre?!
> =>
> => Once again, let me reiterate. The killings on 11 September 1857
> => were an atrocious, cowardly crime, and John D. Lee deserved to die for
> => it. But wasn't Haun's Mill a crime too? Why were none of the murder-
> => ers at Haun's Mill even _named for posterity_, let alone brought to
> => justice? Bagley's book also mentioned the (fairly public) murder of
> => Parley P. Pratt. Why wasn't _his_ murderer brought to justice? Why
> => weren't the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith?
> =>
> =** All of those killed at the Carthage Jail were Freemasons.
>
> I'm still waiting, R.L. Please give me a _single name_ of one of
> the instigators of the Haun's Mill massacre.

** hold not thy breath.


>
> => The LDS Church from its earliest days existed in a fishbowl. A
> => different standard was applied to them than was applied to the rest of
> => the American public. Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
> => and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
> => Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.
> =>
> =** Kevin plays the Persecution Card.
>
> So, R.L., when John D. Lee, John Higbee, et al got 123 emigrants
> to disarm and then shot them in cold blood, you wouldn't call that
> persecution?

€ no, execution.


>
> => All I ask for is equal time. Sure the Mountain Meadow Massacre
> => was grossly wrong. But let's call the atrocities committed against
> => the LDS Church equally wrong, and admit that in the past we haven't
> => paid enough attention to them.
> =>
> =** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
> =(120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
> =not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
> =pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
>
> So, R.L., are you saying that prejudice is okay?

** against an organization which sends out nocturnal raider, yes. "Kill
them all and let God sort out the good from the bad".
-- Pope Innocent III (d. 1216.)

>If a group of
> people, say Jews, belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal
> raids to burn and pillage their neighbors, say the radical Zionist
> element that predated modern Israel, and if therefore a group of peo-
> ple massacre 17 Jewish men, women, and children, then it's understand-
> able why that group might not be even named in the history books, let
> alone ever brought to justice?

** only if those slaughtered aided and abetted the nocturnal raids.


>
> Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
> or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
> killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.
>

** I know not. Please give me the name of one man that Smith's and
Rigdon's Danite Band murdered.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 12, 2003, 8:33:57 AM6/12/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03061...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-1006031...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => > Murderers could go to Haun's Mill, kill people,
> => >and get away with it, but American society could never let a group of
> => >Mormons get away from their murders at Mountain's Meadow.
> =>
> => LOL! Dammit, how come everyone else gets to commit murders. There is a
> => really, really, really, reall,y old saying. "Two wrongs don't make a
> => right."
> =
> =** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt
> =the tide.
>
> Come on, R.L., try me. I don't believe you ever tried arguing
> with _me_ about the MMM.
>
> What happens? You try arguing with a "TBM" about the MMM and the
> "TBM" does what?

** switches to denial mode. It is like unto arguing with a True Believer
Roman Catholic about the Holy Office of the Inquisition's well known
practice of burning witches and heretics - such as Joan of Arc - in public
"Act of Faith" celebrations.

Fool Speck

unread,
Jun 12, 2003, 2:44:54 PM6/12/03
to
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote in message news:<6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>...


> Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
> or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
> killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.

Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be
interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
the perpetrators.


Steve Lowther

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 13, 2003, 3:35:23 PM6/13/03
to
SRLo...@hotmail.com (Fool Speck) wrote in message
news:<9dcdb6ed.0306...@posting.google.com>...

=> Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
=> or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
=> killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.
=
=Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be
=interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
=the perpetrators.

My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
justice is really going to be served.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 14, 2003, 7:32:21 AM6/14/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03061...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> SRLo...@hotmail.com (Fool Speck) wrote in message
> news:<9dcdb6ed.0306...@posting.google.com>...
>
> => Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
> => or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
> => killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.
> =
> =Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be
> =interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
> =the perpetrators.
>
> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
> justice is really going to be served.
>

** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
"Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 14, 2003, 9:13:48 PM6/14/03
to
In article <3eeb7c0c...@news.airmail.net>, robpar...@airmail.net
(robert parker) wrote:

> Or perhaps the Mormons that burned raped and looted the country
> side, causing the raid on the criminals at Haun`s mill.
>
**
are not LDSaints above terrestial law?

> http://www.lds-mormon.com/tmpc.shtml
>
> Check it out.

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 3:38:01 PM6/17/03
to
In alt.religion.mormon Kevin Simonson <kvns...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
> _Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
> Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
> for a long time.

> Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
> few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
> of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
> and children.

Why don't you read about the Missouri Mormon War and about Rigdon and
Smith's activities in the year prior to the Haun Mill massacre? You might
then find out that the victims of Haun's Mill were the victims of Smith
and Rigdon.

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 3:39:26 PM6/17/03
to
Iosepa Hawai'i Loa <ios...@wingetsolutions.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:37:22 -0700, €R.L. Measures wrote:
>> ** One difference between Haun's Mill (17 murdered) and Mountain Meadows
>> (120 murdered) is that the people who were killed at Mountain Meadows did
>> not belong to an organization which sponsored nocturnal raids to burn and
>> pillage their neighbors. (the LDS's Danite Band)
>>
>> cheers, Kevin

> The Danites never were sanctioned by the Church. I admit all participants
> were Mormon, but they operated without the knowledge or blessing of Joseph

Untrue, Smith rode with them when they attacked the Missouri militia...

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 3:42:16 PM6/17/03
to
In alt.religion.mormon Kevin Simonson <kvns...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> SRLo...@hotmail.com (Fool Speck) wrote in message
> news:<9dcdb6ed.0306...@posting.google.com>...

> => Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
> => or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
> => killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.
> =
> =Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be
> =interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
> =the perpetrators.

Perhaps they were afraid that someone would then do their posthumous
templework for them????

Fool Speck

unread,
Jun 18, 2003, 10:01:24 AM6/18/03
to
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote in message news:<6dfb1603.03061...@posting.google.com>...

> SRLo...@hotmail.com (Fool Speck) wrote in message
> news:<9dcdb6ed.0306...@posting.google.com>...
>
> => Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
> => or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
> => killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.
> =
> =Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be
> =interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
> =the perpetrators.
>
> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
> justice is really going to be served.

Yet it is interesting to note how much mileage the Church has gotten
out of the murder of 17 people, and how many good Church members
(especially outside of Utah) never heard of the Mountain Meadows
Massacre where 128 people were murdered.


Steve Lowther

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 4:52:46 PM6/20/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-1206030...@192.168.1.201>...

=> =** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt

=> =the tide.
=>
=> Come on, R.L., try me. I don't believe you ever tried arguing
=> with _me_ about the MMM.
=>
=> What happens? You try arguing with a "TBM" about the MMM and the
=> "TBM" does what?
=
=** switches to denial mode. It is like unto arguing with a True Believer
=Roman Catholic about the Holy Office of the Inquisition's well known
=practice of burning witches and heretics - such as Joan of Arc - in public
="Act of Faith" celebrations.

So if you started arguing with me, you would expect me to "switch
to denial mode"? Denial of what? Denial that Brigham Young ordered
the Fancher Company slaughtered? I don't think I'd go that far. I
don't think there's decisive evidence that Young _did_ order it, but I
don't think I could in all honesty say for sure that I _knew_ he
didn't.

Dimick Huntington recorded that Brigham Young "gave" the cattle
taking the southern route to the Paiutes. That is not the same thing
as telling the Paiutes he wanted the Fancher Company wiped out. In
fact Bigley said John D. Lee had to round up the Paiutes in order to
kill as many people as his group and the Paiutes killed. The Paiutes
certainly didn't act like a group of people on a mission from Brigham
Young to murder Alexander Fancher et al.

It is pretty clear that Lee was acting on orders from William
Dame and the local stake president, Isaac Haight. There is no evi-
dence that Haight or Dame were acting on orders from Young.

Bigley went from Young's "gift" of the cattle and his invective
against the approaching Johnston's Army and the murder of Parley Pratt
in Arkansas to the conclusion that Young ordered the massacre. I
guess I can see how Bigley came to that conclusion, but it's not for
me. People draw pictures of Haight, Dame, and Lee as people who
wouldn't dare make move their little fingers without direction from
Brigham Young; I have never been convinced that held true for _any_
Mormon of any era. I think it's totally possible that the anger and
desire for vengeance of Haight and Dame alone could have been respon-
sible for the murders at Mountain Meadows.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 5:02:30 PM6/20/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-1406030...@192.168.1.201>...

=> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
=> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
=> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
=> justice is really going to be served.
=>
=** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
="Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
=and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
=accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..

Ho ho ho.

Actually, I'd be satisfied if some non-LDS author were to just
write a book, naming the people that probably did the killing, and at-
tempting to give some kind of an explanation for why they were never
prosecuted.

Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre. A similar apology from Gor-
don Hinckley et al seems to be what Bigley's after.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 5:10:48 PM6/20/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-1406031...@192.168.1.201>...

=> >> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
=> >> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
=> >> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
=> >> justice is really going to be served.
=> >>
=> >** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
=> >"Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
=> >and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
=> >accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..
=>
=> Or perhaps the Mormons that burned raped and looted the country
=> side, causing the raid on the criminals at Haun`s mill.

I didn't see Robert Parker's original article, so I'm forced to
respond to its second-hand transmission, through Rich's article. It
is as likely that Mormons "burned raped and looted the country side"
as it is that the Fancher Company committed the atrocities Mormons
said they committed. As Bigley pointed out, it's always easy to blame
the victims after they've been wiped out and can't defend themselves.

=**
=are not LDSaints above terrestial law?

They are not above terrestrial law.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 5:13:32 PM6/20/03
to
Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:<bcnquo$d3r$7...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...

=> => Haun's Mill was murder, whether Mormons sponsored the Danite band
=> => or not. Let me repeat, R.L.; please give me the name of _one man_ who
=> => killed Latter-day Saints at Haun's Mill.


=> =
=> =Good question. One would think that LDS historians would be

=> =interested enough in that event to at least keep track of the names of
=> =the perpetrators.
=
=Perhaps they were afraid that someone would then do their posthumous
=templework for them????

Ah, but we'll get to them eventually anyway. :)

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 5:25:30 PM6/20/03
to
Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:<bcnqmp$d3r$5...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...

=> As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
=> _Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
=> Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
=> for a long time.
=
=> Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
=> few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
=> of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
=> and children.
=
=Why don't you read about the Missouri Mormon War and about Rigdon and
=Smith's activities in the year prior to the Haun Mill massacre? You might
=then find out that the victims of Haun's Mill were the victims of Smith
=and Rigdon.

Ah, so when the guy at Haun's Mill suggested his companion spare
the life of the pre-teen boy in the Mill, and his companion gave the
famous response that nits grow into lice and then shot the boy at
close range, it was actually Smith and Rigdon that made him pull the
trigger? If he'd been brought to trial he could have been acquitted
by arguing that it hadn't really been him that killed that boy, Smith
and Rigdon made him do it?

The law has always been pretty clear on this issue. If a man
pulls the trigger of a gun that he knows will probably kill the man
(or boy) in front of him, and that man (or boy) dies; then it doesn't
matter what drove the gunman; he's still guilty of murder.

By the way, Clovis, I'm still waiting for the names of that man
and his companion, or of _any_ of the people who killed the seventeen
that died at Haun's Mill. Do you have any of those names yet?

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 5:31:43 PM6/20/03
to
SRLo...@hotmail.com (Fool Speck) wrote in message news:<9dcdb6ed.03061...@posting.google.com>...

=> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
=> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
=> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
=> justice is really going to be served.
=
=Yet it is interesting to note how much mileage the Church has gotten
=out of the murder of 17 people, and how many good Church members
=(especially outside of Utah) never heard of the Mountain Meadows
=Massacre where 128 people were murdered.

The number of "good Church members" who have "never heard of the
Mountain Meadows Massacre" has to be declining since the massacre is
now mentioned in the Church's seminary textbook during the year its
highschool-age kids study Church history. I don't remember whether it
mentioned that white people were involved, but I do remember that the
massacre was mentioned.

By the way, Bigley's book indicated there were just 123 people
killed (minor nit).

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 10:25:27 AM6/21/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-1206030...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => =** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt
> => =the tide.
> =>
> => Come on, R.L., try me. I don't believe you ever tried arguing
> => with _me_ about the MMM.
> =>
> => What happens? You try arguing with a "TBM" about the MMM and the
> => "TBM" does what?
> =
> =** switches to denial mode. It is like unto arguing with a True Believer
> =Roman Catholic about the Holy Office of the Inquisition's well known
> =practice of burning witches and heretics - such as Joan of Arc - in public
> ="Act of Faith" celebrations.
>
> So if you started arguing with me, you would expect me to "switch
> to denial mode"? Denial of what?

€ reality

>Denial that Brigham Young ordered
> the Fancher Company slaughtered? I don't think I'd go that far. I
> don't think there's decisive evidence that Young _did_ order it, but I
> don't think I could in all honesty say for sure that I _knew_ he didn't.

>€ the sticky wicket with the MMM is that the evidence is largely
circumstantial - except for the testimony of 7-yr olds who witnessed their
mothers and older siblings being hacked to death and their fathers being
shot in the head.
- The problem for god's one true church is that it has a military-style
government with a maximum leader at the top who micro-manages virtually
everything.

> Dimick Huntington recorded that Brigham Young "gave" the cattle
> taking the southern route to the Paiutes. That is not the same thing
> as telling the Paiutes he wanted the Fancher Company wiped out. In
> fact Bigley said John D. Lee had to round up the Paiutes in order to
> kill as many people as his group and the Paiutes killed. The Paiutes
> certainly didn't act like a group of people on a mission from Brigham
> Young to murder Alexander Fancher et al.
>

€ the surving children reported that, after the massacre, the "Injuns"
went to the creek, washed their skin - which became white.

> It is pretty clear that Lee was acting on orders from William
> Dame and the local stake president, Isaac Haight. There is no evi-
> dence that Haight or Dame were acting on orders from Young.
>

€ In the one true church, orders come from the top. If Dame had hatched
this PR blunder on his own, he would have been jackbooted a.s.a.p.

> Bigley went from Young's "gift" of the cattle and his invective
> against the approaching Johnston's Army and the murder of Parley Pratt
> in Arkansas

€ and don't forget to mention that them goddamned Fanchers done went and
pizened a bunch of water holes.

> to the conclusion that Young ordered the massacre. I
> guess I can see how Bigley came to that conclusion, but it's not for
> me. People draw pictures of Haight, Dame, and Lee as people who
> wouldn't dare make move their little fingers without direction from
> Brigham Young; I have never been convinced that held true for _any_
> Mormon of any era.

€ Fawn Brodie and Deborah Laake got jackbooted for writing books. Wm.
Dame did not not get jackbooted for the MMM.

>I think it's totally possible that the anger and
> desire for vengeance of Haight and Dame alone could have been respon-
> sible for the murders at Mountain Meadows.
>

€ I don't

cheers, Kevin

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 10:38:17 AM6/21/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-1406030...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
> => ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
> => with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
> => justice is really going to be served.
> =>
> =** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
> ="Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
> =and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
> =accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..
>
> Ho ho ho.
>

€ Laugh not. It happened to one pope.

> Actually, I'd be satisfied if some non-LDS author were to just
> write a book, naming the people that probably did the killing, and at-
> tempting to give some kind of an explanation for why they were never
> prosecuted.
>

€ a bridge too far. The RCC will probably never come 100% clean about
the altar-boy problem because there's just too much embarrassing shit..


> Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
> religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
> perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre. A similar apology from Gor-
> don Hinckley et al seems to be what Bigley's after.
>

€ forgetaboutit. No matter where you find them, holy men hate like
hell to apologize for err because they fear of loss of respect -- which is
the very reason they choose this vocation. The RCC did not apologize for
Copernicus/Galileo flat-earth scandal until October, 1992.

have phun, Kevin

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 10:41:36 AM6/21/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-1406031...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => >> My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
> => >> ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
> => >> with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
> => >> justice is really going to be served.
> => >>
> => >** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
> => >"Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
> => >and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
> => >accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..
> =>
> => Or perhaps the Mormons that burned raped and looted the country
> => side, causing the raid on the criminals at Haun`s mill.
>
> I didn't see Robert Parker's original article, so I'm forced to
> respond to its second-hand transmission, through Rich's article. It
> is as likely that Mormons "burned raped and looted the country side"
> as it is that the Fancher Company committed the atrocities Mormons
> said they committed.

€ would it be likely for cattle herders to poison cattle watering holes?

>As Bigley pointed out, it's always easy to blame
> the victims after they've been wiped out and can't defend themselves.
>

'tis SOP, Kevin

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 1:32:38 PM6/21/03
to
In alt.religion.mormon Kevin Simonson <kvns...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
> news:<bcnqmp$d3r$5...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...

> => As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
> => _Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
> => Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
> => for a long time.
> =
> => Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
> => few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
> => of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
> => and children.
> =
> =Why don't you read about the Missouri Mormon War and about Rigdon and
> =Smith's activities in the year prior to the Haun Mill massacre? You might
> =then find out that the victims of Haun's Mill were the victims of Smith
> =and Rigdon.

Your anecdote in no way explains why a mob edescended upon Haun's Mill.
The activities of Rigdon and Smith, their organization of a paramilitary
force that razed Gallatin and other MO towns, threatened with deadly force
all curch members not willing to cough up their family possessions into
the common coffer (this includes the casting out of Whitmer), attacked the
MO Militia at Crooked Creek killing several members, is the direct cause
of the angry mob.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 6:10:30 PM6/22/03
to
In article <3ef90fc8...@news.airmail.net>, robpar...@airmail.net
(robert parker) wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:38:17 -0700, ^2...@vc.net (€R.L. Measures)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
> >kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:
> >
> >> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> >> news:<^2-1406030...@192.168.1.201>...
> >>
> >> => My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
> >> => ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
> >> => with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
> >> => justice is really going to be served.
> >> =>
> >> =** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
> >> ="Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
> >> =and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
> >> =accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..
> >>
> >> Ho ho ho.
> >>
> >€ Laugh not. It happened to one pope.
> >

> They were state militiamen under orders from the governor of
> Missouri.
>
€ thanks. Perhaps it wasn't a good idea to raid non-Mormon towns?


> >
> >> Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
> >> religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
> >> perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre.
>

> Not a religious act, but a political act in response to the
> Mormon raids, and ambush of a militia company. The mormons were
> not attacked for their beliefs, but their acts.

TheJordan6

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 6:16:31 PM6/22/03
to
>From: robpar...@airmail.net (robert parker)
>Date: 6/22/2003 3:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3ef90fc8...@news.airmail.net>

>
>On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:38:17 -0700, ^2...@vc.net (€R.L. Measures)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
>>kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:
>>
>>> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
>>> news:<^2-1406030...@192.168.1.201>...
>>>
>>> => My point exactly. People have been more concerned with identify-
>>> => ing Mormon murderers than _anybody_, Mormon or non-Mormon, has been
>>> => with identifying murderers _of_ Mormons. And that's got to change, if
>>> => justice is really going to be served.
>>> =>
>>> =** Justice will not be served until the graves of those who killed
>>> ="Saints" at Haun's Mill' are dug up, the corpses tried by a court of law,
>>> =and then said corpses summarily hung by the neck in public to the
>>> =accomopaniment of Mormon sacred music..
>>>
>>> Ho ho ho.
>>>
>>€ Laugh not. It happened to one pope.
>>
>>> Actually, I'd be satisfied if some non-LDS author were to just
>>> write a book, naming the people that probably did the killing, and at-
>>> tempting to give some kind of an explanation for why they were never
>>> prosecuted.

> They were state militiamen under orders from the governor of
>Missouri.

No they weren't. Boggs' "extermination order" was not received by militia
units until after the Haun's Mill massacre. The perpetrators acted without
authority.

I wrote this information in a post to Kevin Simonson only about a week ago:

"No one knows who ordered the attack on Haun's Mill. The militia companies
that participated in the assault belonged to General Parks' brigade, but he did
not issue the order. The troops were organized under the command of Col.
Thomas Jennings, who apparently acted on his own iniatitive in leading the
attack. It is possible that the Missourians received word of Governor Boggs'
extermination order and took it upon themselves to carry out the decree, but
they never offered this as a reason for the raid.
(One problem with this theory is that there is no evidence indicating when
Governor Boggs' order became known to the Missourians. Generals Jackson,
Doniphan, and Lucas did not receive their orders from the governor until the
afternoon of 30 October, and they did not receive an official copy of the
extermination order until 31 October.)
"One of the attackers, Charles Ashby, a state legislator from Livingston, said
the Missourians attacked because Mormon dissenters fleeing into Livingston
warned them that the Saints at Haun's Mill were planning an invasion of their
county. Local citizens decided they must act to prevent Mormon soldiers from
overruning Livingston County as they had done Daviess. 'We thought it best to
attack them first,' Ashby told fellow legislators. 'What we did was in our own
defence, and we had the right to do so.'
"The Livingston troops were joined by companies from Daviess and Carroll
counties, Many of the Daviess men wanted to even the score for Mormon
depradations in their county. Capts. Nehemiah Comstock and William Mann, whose
troops had been harassing Mormon emigrants and settlers, also brought their
troops into the field."
("The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri," Stephen LeSeuer, U. of Missouri Press, pp.
163-164.)

>>> Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
>>> religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
>>> perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre.

> Not a religious act, but a political act in response to the
>Mormon raids, and ambush of a militia company. The mormons were
>not attacked for their beliefs, but their acts.

Right. I have posted that information probably 20 times in the last three
years on ARM. Here again is a synopsis of what the Mormons did to enrage
Missourians to commit the Haun's Mill massacre and get themselves evicted from
Missouri:

Gordon B. Hinckley offered the following comments in the
April 1984 General Conference:

"According to the account given by George A. Smith, while the Saints were in
Far West, Missouri, 'the wife of Thomas B. Marsh, who was then President of the
Twelve Apostles, and Sister Harris concluded they would exchange milk, in order
to make a little larger cheese than they otherwise could. To be sure to have
justice done, it was agreed that they should not save the strippings (to
themselves), but that the milk and strippings should go all together.....Mrs.
Harris, it appeared, was faithful to the agreement and carried to Mrs. Marsh
the milk and strippings, but Mrs. Marsh, wishing to make some extra good
cheese, saved a pint of strippings from each cow and sent Mrs. Harris the milk
without the strippings. A quarrel arose, and the matter was referred to the
home teachers. They found Mrs. Marsh guilty of failure to keep her agreement.
She and her husband were upset and, 'an appeal was taken from the teacher to
the bishop, and a regular church trial was held. President Marsh did not
consider that the bishop had done him and his lady justice for they (that is,
the bishop's court) decided that the strippings were wrongfully saved, and that
the woman had violated her covenant.
'Marsh immediately took an appeal to the High Council, who investigated the
question with much patience, and,' says George A. Smith, .....'Marsh.....made
a desperate defence, but the High Council finally confirmed the bishop's
decision.....This little affair,' Brother Smith continues, 'kicked up a
considerable breeze, and Thomas B. Marsh then declared that he would sustain
the character of his wife even if he had to go to hell for it. The then
President of the Twelve Apostles, the man who should have been the first to do
justice and cause reparation to be made for wrong.....went before a magistrate
and swore that the 'Mormons' were hostile towards the state of MIssouri. That
affidavit brought from the government of Missouri an exterminating order, which
drove some 15,000 Saints from their homes and habitations.....
What a very small and trivial thing--a little cream over which two women
quarreled. But it led to, or at least was a factor in, Governor Boggs' cruel
exterminating order which drove the Saints from the state of Missouri."
("Ensign" Magazine, May 1984, p. 83.)

Note how Hinckley asserts that the "milk strippings" incident was a major
factor in Marsh's defection, and the resulting
Extermination Order. But were Hinckley's remarks (via George A. Smith)
anywhere close to the truth? Let's compare Hinckley's assertions to the
documented facts of history:

A "revelation" Smith produced, and published in his 1833 "Book of
Commandments," read as follows:

"For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets
shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate the riches of the Gentiles, unto my
people which are of the house of Israel." (BOC 44:32.)

In Smith's 1835 revision of the BOC, re-titled the "Doctrine and Covenants,"
Smith altered this verse to read:

"for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the
Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel." (D&C
42:39.)

David Whitmer explained why the original version of this "revelation" had
enraged Missourians against the Mormon immigrants in 1833:

"In the spring of 1832, in Hiram, Ohio, Brothers Joseph and Sidney, and others,
concluded that the revelations should be printed in a book. A few of the
brethren -- including myself --objected to it seriously. We told them that if
the revelations were
published, the world would get the books, and it would not do; that it was not
the will of the Lord that the revelations should be published. But Brothers
Joseph and Sidney would not listen to us, and said they were going to send them
to Independence to be published. I objected to it and withstood Brothers Joseph
and Sidney to the face. Brother Joseph said as follows: "Any man who objects to
having these revelations published, shall have his part taken out of the Tree
of Life and out of the Holy City." The Spirit of God came upon me and I
prophesied to them in the name of the Lord: "That if they sent those
revelations to Independence to be published in a book, the people would come
upon them and tear down the printing press, and the church would be driven out
of Jackson county." Brothers Joseph and Sidney laughed at me. Early in the
spring of 1833, at Independence, Mo., the revelations were printed in the Book
of Commandments. Many of the books were finished and distributed among the
members of the church, and through some of the unwise brethren, the world got
hold of some of them. From that time the ill-feeling toward us began to
increase; and in the summer of 1833 the mob came upon us, tore down the
printing press, and drove the church out of Jackson county." ("An Address to
all Believers in Christ")

It's obvious that Smith altered the verse which called for the "consecration of
the riches of the Gentiles unto the house of Israel" because the publication of
Smith's policy of institutionalized thievery had gotten the Mormons booted out
of Jackson County.
Nonetheless, he and Rigdon secretly continued their advocacy of "consecrating"
the personal property of non-Mormons, as well as those of Mormon dissenters,
into his "kingdom," and that was the ultimate cause of the Mormons' final
expulsion from Missouri in 1838.

To today's Mormons, "consecration" means giving of their money or goods to the
church. In 1838, upon the failure of their Kirtland Bank and "United Order,"
Smith and Rigdon went to Missouri and again tried to institute an economic
commune. The Missouri Mormons, who had been expelled from Jackson County in
1834, were living in relative (albeit temporary) peace in Clay County, buying
land and starting farms. But the arrival of Smith and Rigdon in the spring of
1838 brought an influx of thousands more Mormons from Kirtland as well,
spilling them over into "Gentile" areas, causing new tensions. Mormon
population increased from 1,200 to 15,000 in just a few months. Having been
stung by the Kirtland failure, Smith and Rigdon implemented new policies that
they hoped would make the new commune succeed. The policy mandated that all
Mormons sign their lands over to the church, and then the church
would lease the land back to them as "stewardships." The Mormons who had
bought and developed
their lands and farms balked at the idea---among them being Cowdery, the
Whitmers, Phelps, Lyman Johnson, etc. They correctly perceived that the new
"consecration" policy was nothing more than Smith and Rigdon's latest scheme to
fleece the flock. Their refusal to sign lands over to the church prompted
Rigdon's "Salt Sermon" (which was heartily endorsed by Smith), and Rigdon's
resulting letter informing the dissenters that they must "depart before a more
fatal calamity" befell them. While the dissenters had gone to procure legal
aid to prevent Smith and Rigdon from taking their land (or their lives), the
"Danites" invaded and plundered their homes and property. So, for those
Mormons, "consecration" meant having their goods taken away by force, upon the
order of church leaders.

"A proposition was made and supported by some as being the best policy to kill
these men that they would not be capable of injuring the church. All their
measures were strenuously opposed by John Corrill and T. B. Marsh one of the
twelve apostles of the church and in consequence nothing could be effected
until the matter was taken up publicly BY THE PRESIDENCY the following (June
17th) in a large congregation..." ("Reed Peck Manuscript")

Thus, according to Peck, Marsh was already opposing Smith's and Rigdon's
heinous policies as early as June 17----four months before Marsh swore his
affidavit. That fact alone destroys the "milk strippings" business.

As many witnesses (including Thomas B. Marsh) testified in court, Smith's
intention was to "take this State,...the United States and ultimately the whole
world" for his theocratic empire. The swelling Mormon population disturbed
the non-Mormons, who had heard that the "Gentiles" were to be evicted and the
land become the Mormons' "New Jerusalem." One Missourian, William Peniston,
remarked in August that the Mormons "are a set of horse thieves, liars, and
counterfeiters. They'll swear a false oath on any occasion to save another
Mormon....no property is safe in Daviess County if they continue to pour into
this area." Tensions soon erupted into violence, with beatings, lootings and
burnings being committed on both sides. By October, believing that they had
enough manpower to "take the state," Smith and Rigdon then sent their "Danite"
forces to begin "consecrating"
from the "Gentiles" as well as the dissident "Saints," with the loot going to
support their war effort. Church historian John Whitmer reported that the
Mormon leaders claimed the stealing was justified because they were the "chosen
people":

"After they had driven us and our families, they commenced a difficulty in
Daviess County, adjoining this county, in which they began to rob and burn
houses, etc. etc., took honey which they, (the Mormons) call sweet oil, and
hogs which they call bear, and cattle which they called buffalo. Thus they
would justify themselves by saying, "We are the people of God, and all things
are God's; therefore, they are ours." (John Whitmer's "History of the Church")

John Whitmer's remarks revealed Smith's and Rigdon's true attitude: they viewed
their organization as the literal "House of Israel," and "the Kingdom of God on
Earth"; they taught the imminent return and millenial reign of Christ, wherein
all the "enemies" of the "true church" would be defeated. Since, in the
"millenium," all things on earth would be theirs, they haughtily taught their
subordinates to appropriate the property of the "Gentiles."

Mormon historian Leland Gentry admits to Mormon thefts: "The Danites were
taught to take from the Gentiles and consecrate to the Church. Nearly every
person who testified at the trial against the Mormon leaders made mention of
this fact. John Clemenson stated that 'it was frequently observed among the
troops at Diahman that the time had come when the riches of the Gentiles should
be consecrated to the Saints.' Jeremiah Myers testified that 'the consecrated
property...was dealt out to those in need' by Bishop Vinson Knight." (A
History of the Latter-Day Saints in Northern Missouri, p. 385-387.)

"Danites struck at Gallatin and two other towns, Millport and Grinding Fork.
The three onslaughts occurred simultaneously and had a crushing impact on the
Missourians who were unaccustomed to Mormon resistance. When Captains Lyman
Wight, David W. Patten, and Seymour Brunson rode into Far West at the head of
their companies, the sight of wagonloads of plunder was offensive to a number
of less aggressively inclined Saints. That night they gathered their families
together and abandoned the settlement. Among the defectors were two of
Joseph's most trusted followers, Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde, both members
of the Council of Twelve Apostles. The two men fled to nearby Richmond and
blurted out everything they knew." ("Orrin Porter Rockwell," Harold Schindler,
p. 54.)

"The Mormons were two hundred and fifty men by the time they reached Daviess
County...The bulk of the forces went out in search of the gentile opposition.
They marched through three settlements, including Gallatin, repaying the
Missourians in kind, looting and firing stores, homes, and barns, before their
anger spent itself.....When they returned with their loot, many of their own
people were appalled and frightened. Thomas B. Marsh, Brigham Young's superior
as President of the Twelve, let it be known that he did not approve such
retaliation, and he left the church." ("Kingdom of the Saints", Ray B. West, p.
86.)

"There was much mysterious conversation in camps, as to plundering, and
house-burning; so much so, that I had my own notions about it; and, on one
occasion, I spoke to Mr. Smith, Jr., in the house, and told him that this
course of burning houses and plundering, by the Mormon troops, would ruin us;
that it could not be kept hid, and would bring the force of the state upon us;
that houses would be searched, and stolen property found. Smith replied to me,
in a pretty rough manner, to keep still; that I should say nothing about it;
that it would discourage the men...I saw a great deal of plunder and bee-steads
brought into camp; and I saw many persons, for many days, taking the honey out
of them; I understood this property and plunder were placed into the hands of
the bishop at Diahmon....The general teachings of the presidency were, that the
kingdom they were setting up was a temporal kingdom...that the time had come
when this kingdom was to be set up by
forcible means, if necessary. It was taught, that the time had come when the
riches of the Gentiles were to be consecrated to the true Israel."
(Testimony of George M. Hinkle, "Senate Document 189".)

"Smith replied, the time had come when he should resist all law...I heard J.
Smith remark, there was a store at Gallatin, and a grocery at Millport; and in
the morning after the conversation between Smith and Wight about resisting the
law, a plan of operations was agreed on, which was: that Captain Fearnaught,
who was present, should take a company of 100 men, or more, and go to Gallatin,
and take it that day; to take the goods out of Gallatin, bring them to Diahmon,
and burn the store...On the same day, in the evening, I saw both these
companies return; the foot company had some plunder..." (Testimony of WW
Phelps, "Senate Document 189").

From Marsh's own sworn legal affidavit of October 24, 1838:

"At the request of citizens of Ray County, I make the following
statement...Joseph Smith, the prophet, had preached a sermon in which he said
that all the Mormons who refused to take up arms, if necessary, in the
difficulties with the citizens, should be shot or otherwise put to death; and
as I was there with my family, I thought it most prudent to go and did go with
my wagon as the driver. We marched to Adam-ondi-Ahman and found no troops or
mob in Davies County....a company of about eighty Mormons, commanded by a man
fictitiously named Captain Fearnaught [apostle and Danite David Patten],
marched to Gallatin...I afterwards learned from the Mormons that they had burnt
Gallatin and that it was done by the aforesaid company
that marched there. The Mormons informed me that they had hauled away all the
goods from the store in Gallatin and deposited them at the Bishop's storehouse
at Diahmon. On the same day, [apostle and Danite] Lyman Wight marched about
eighty horsemen for Millport...The same evening a number of footmen came up
from the direction of Millport laden with property which I was informed
consisted of beds, clocks, and other household furniture...During the same
time, a company called the Fur Company were sent out to bring in fat hogs and
cattle, calling the hogs 'bears', and the cattle 'buffaloes.' They have among
them a company consisting of all that are considered true Mormons, called the
Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of the church in all
things that they say or do, whether right or wrong.....The plan of said Smith,
the prophet, is to take this State, and he professed to his people to intend
taking the United States, and ultimately the whole world. This is the belief
of the church, and my own opinion of the prophet's plans and intentions.....The
prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that
Smith's prophecies are superior to the law of the land. I have heard the
prophet say that he should yet tread down his enemies and walk over their dead
bodies; that if he was not let alone he would be a second Mahomet to this
generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky
Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean....."

I don't find anything about "milk strippings" in Marsh's, or any other
eyewitnesses' testimony of those events; and I have failed to find even one
mention of the alleged "milk strippings" incident in any history on the subject
by any reputable scholar. To the contrary, they all concur that the reason the
Mormons were booted out of Missouri was because of Smith and Rigdon's haughty,
belligerent attitudes and teachings; their calls for violence, their
"revelations" that "justified" their followers stealing from their neighbors;
and their boasts that their organization had a "divine right" to take the state
of Missouri for themselves, by any means necessary, including force.

Late LDS author Harold Schindler recounted the series of events that caused
Governor Boggs to issue his "Extermination Order," which came the day after the
skirmish between Missouri militiamen and Mormon "Danites" at Crooked River:

"Twenty-four hours after the Crooked River fight, Boggs, armed with the
affidavits of Marsh and Hyde plus complaints from frightened settlers
describing a wholesale Mormon rebellion, ordered two thousand militiamen from
five divisions into the field...Then Boggs received a message confirming an
earlier report of Bogart's defeat but compounding the rumors of a
massacre...this report prompted Boggs to issue his infamous 'Extermination
Order' of October 27 to General John B. Clark. In effect, the order challenged
Sidney Rigdon's Fourth of July address in which he defied the Gentiles and
threatened a 'war of extermination.' It was more than coincidence that Boggs
chose that particular word in his instruction to General Clark."
("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.
56-58.)

Thus we see that the major incident which spurred Boggs to issue his
"Extermination Order" was the Crooked River skirmish, wherein several men on
both sides were killed. That event made Boggs realize that the Mormons would
not peacefully cohabit the state with non-Mormons, and since many Mormons had
taken a secret oath to obey Smith's every order, even those which called on
them to commit crimes, Boggs was forced to evict all of the Mormons from the
state.

So, in view of the documented facts, can anyone honestly believe that Thomas B.
Marsh's real gripe was a fight between two women over "milk strippings"?
And, was Gordon B. Hinckley being "honest with his fellow man" by using George
A. Smith's "faith-promoting" version of events, rather than objectively
relating the numerous testimonies of first-hand eyewitnesses and participants?
Of course he wasn't. Hinckley, as well as most other LDS leaders and
apologists, are not interested in relating the actual history of Mormonism;
their agenda is to spin "faith-promoting" tales that attempt to "teach a
lesson," while simultaneously obfuscating the actual facts. The average
rank-and-file Mormon, upon learning that the first president of the Q12 had
"apostasized," would naturally inquire as to the reasons for his "apostasy";
and the "milk strippings" story is propagated to conceal the actual reasons,
and to
provide an "object lesson" for Mormons sitting in Sunday School class.

Randy J.

TheJordan6

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 6:44:17 PM6/22/03
to
>From: kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson)
>Date: 6/20/2003 4:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>

>
>Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
>news:<bcnqmp$d3r$5...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
>
>=> As a sort of an appendix to my previous post on Will Bagley's book
>=> _Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain
>=> Meadows_, there's something about the massacre that I've wanted to say
>=> for a long time.
>=
>=> Bagley's book, like any good book of early LDS history, spent a
>=> few paragraphs discussing the massacre at Haun's Mill, where a bunch
>=> of Missourians came into an LDS settlement and murdered men, women,
>=> and children.

>=Why don't you read about the Missouri Mormon War and about Rigdon and

>=Smith's activities in the year prior to the Haun Mill massacre? You might
>=then find out that the victims of Haun's Mill were the victims of Smith
>=and Rigdon.

> Ah, so when the guy at Haun's Mill suggested his companion spare
>the life of the pre-teen boy in the Mill, and his companion gave the
>famous response that nits grow into lice and then shot the boy at
>close range, it was actually Smith and Rigdon that made him pull the
>trigger?

No, it was Smith and Rigdon who vowed to "wage a war of blood and destruction
from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic," and who sent out Danite night-riders
to loot and burn the towns of non-Mormons, which enraged those non-Mormons to
the point of committing the Haun's Mill massacre.

Clovis was pointing out (just as I have numerous times over the years) that the
Haun's Mill massacre would not have occurred if not for Smith and Rigdon's
arrogant arritudes and illegal orders. Thus, the victims of the Haun's Mill
massacre were really the victims of the teachings and policies of Smith and
Rigdon. Much like you, Kevin Simonson, still are a victim of those teachings
today, but you don't realize it.

>If he'd been brought to trial he could have been acquitted
>by arguing that it hadn't really been him that killed that boy, Smith
>and Rigdon made him do it?

No. Who has ever asserted such a thing?

> The law has always been pretty clear on this issue. If a man
>pulls the trigger of a gun that he knows will probably kill the man
>(or boy) in front of him, and that man (or boy) dies; then it doesn't
>matter what drove the gunman; he's still guilty of murder.

Who said he wasn't?

> By the way, Clovis, I'm still waiting for the names of that man
>and his companion, or of _any_ of the people who killed the seventeen
>that died at Haun's Mill. Do you have any of those names yet?
>
> ---Kevin Simonson

I posted that information to ARM more than a week ago, and I cc'd it to your
e-mail, as I'm doing with this post also. Perhaps you simply neglect to read
information which you have requested, so that you can pretend that it hasn't
been provided to you.

Below is the information again. Since I'm cc-ing it to your e-mail, if you
continue to claim that no one has provided you the information, I will have no
choice but to declare that you are a liar.

Randy J.

Randy J.


Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 6:50:17 PM6/22/03
to
Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:<bd24rm$l9n$1...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...

=Your anecdote in no way explains why a mob edescended upon Haun's Mill.
=The activities of Rigdon and Smith, their organization of a paramilitary
=force that razed Gallatin and other MO towns, threatened with deadly force
=all curch members not willing to cough up their family possessions into
=the common coffer (this includes the casting out of Whitmer), attacked the
=MO Militia at Crooked Creek killing several members, is the direct cause
=of the angry mob.

Clovis, you talk about "the angry mob" like it was a mudslide
that, set in motion as you say by Smith and Rigdon, was impossible to
stop before it killed the seventeen people who died at Haun's Mill.

I'm really not much of a historian, so I can't comment on whether
the mob was motivated by the atrocities of which you spoke. But I
know for a fact that "the angry mob" was made up of individual people,
several of which made individual choices to fire loaded guns at inno-
cent people. Why is it so hard for you to admit that these individual
people committed individual acts of murder? Regardless of what Smith
and Rigdon did, _it was still completely against the law_ in the state
of Missouri for these people to kill those seventeen.

Maybe the seventeen _were_ victims of Smith and Rigdon; I don't
know whether they were or not. _But what is abundantly clear_ is that
if enough people had exercised their free will and chosen not to kill
those innocent lives, they would not have died. If Smith and Rigdon
were responsible for the deaths, they were _indirectly_ responsible;
the men who raided the settlement themselves were _directly_ respon-
sible.

Let me ask once again, Clovis: _who were_ those men who raided
Haun's Mill? Can you give me one name? Is that why you're trying to
pin it on Smith and Rigdon, because you can name them but you can't
name the people who fired the guns? If so then you've made my point.

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 6:57:59 PM6/22/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-2106030...@192.168.1.201>...

=> => Or perhaps the Mormons that burned raped and looted the country

=> => side, causing the raid on the criminals at Haun`s mill.
=>
=> I didn't see Robert Parker's original article, so I'm forced to
=> respond to its second-hand transmission, through Rich's article. It
=> is as likely that Mormons "burned raped and looted the country side"
=> as it is that the Fancher Company committed the atrocities Mormons
=> said they committed.
=
=? would it be likely for cattle herders to poison cattle watering holes?

Rich, you missed my point entirely. After reading Bigley's book
I became very skeptical that the Fancher Company ever poisoned cattle
watering holes or committed any of the other atrocities attributed to
them. All I'm saying is that I'm _also_ skeptical of claims that Mor-
mons "burned raped and looted the country side."

=>As Bigley pointed out, it's always easy to blame
=> the victims after they've been wiped out and can't defend themselves.
=>
='tis SOP, Kevin

Rich, what does SOP mean?

Kevin Simonson

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 7:14:39 PM6/22/03
to
^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
news:<^2-2106030...@192.168.1.201>...

=> Actually, I'd be satisfied if some non-LDS author were to just
=> write a book, naming the people that probably did the killing, and at-
=> tempting to give some kind of an explanation for why they were never
=> prosecuted.
=>
=? a bridge too far. The RCC will probably never come 100% clean about
=the altar-boy problem because there's just too much embarrassing shit..

Then we have a double standard, don't we? Bigley attempts to
hold the LDS Church responsible for the Mountain Meadow Massacre (and
he should, by the way), but society turns a blind eye to massacres
when it's the Mormons getting killed, instead of doing the killing.

This isn't an entirely LDS phenomenon, by the way. I was reading
a bit of history of Central Australia where over a course of years
three white men got killed, and something on the order of seventy Abo-
rigines got killed, in a bit of violence they had. Guess the race of
the victims named in this history?

The moral of this story is that when the predominant race locks
horns with an underdog, people notice when members of the predominant
race die, but not when members of the underdog race die.

=> Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
=> religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
=> perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre. A similar apology from Gor-
=> don Hinckley et al seems to be what Bigley's after.
=>
=? forgetaboutit. No matter where you find them, holy men hate like
=hell to apologize for err because they fear of loss of respect -- which is
=the very reason they choose this vocation. The RCC did not apologize for
=Copernicus/Galileo flat-earth scandal until October, 1992.

Actually, Hinckley has already shown that he can apologize. He
apologized to the people of Hartford, Connecticut when the Church de-
cided not to build a temple there, but rather built two in Boston and
White Plains instead. So it's feasible he could apologize for other
things instead. But I don't think he's going to apologize for Moun-
tain Meadows until it's very clear that Brigham Young was directly re-
sponsible for the murders, and we're not there yet.

TheJordan6

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 7:37:28 PM6/22/03
to
>From: kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson)
>Date: 6/20/2003 3:52 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com>

>
>^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
>news:<^2-1206030...@192.168.1.201>...
>
>=> =** arguing with a TBM about the MMM is like unto shovelling sand againt
>=> =the tide.
>=>
>=> Come on, R.L., try me. I don't believe you ever tried arguing
>=> with _me_ about the MMM.
>=>
>=> What happens? You try arguing with a "TBM" about the MMM and the
>=> "TBM" does what?
>=
>=** switches to denial mode. It is like unto arguing with a True Believer
>=Roman Catholic about the Holy Office of the Inquisition's well known
>=practice of burning witches and heretics - such as Joan of Arc - in public
>="Act of Faith" celebrations.

> So if you started arguing with me, you would expect me to "switch
>to denial mode"? Denial of what? Denial that Brigham Young ordered
>the Fancher Company slaughtered? I don't think I'd go that far. I
>don't think there's decisive evidence that Young _did_ order it, but I
>don't think I could in all honesty say for sure that I _knew_ he
>didn't.
> Dimick Huntington recorded that Brigham Young "gave" the cattle
>taking the southern route to the Paiutes. That is not the same thing
>as telling the Paiutes he wanted the Fancher Company wiped out.

But in that same war council in which Young gave the Paiutes the "southern
route" cattle, Young "justified" the theft by telling the Indians that the
Americans "have come to fight us & you, for when they kill us then they will
kill you."

Young put the idea in those Indians' minds that it was a "kill or be killed"
situation. That means that Young knew that the Indians would likely kill
emigrants during the raid to steal their cattle and property.

Young made other statements wherein he threatened to have Indians kill
emigrants:

"If the government dare to force the issue, I shall not hold the Indians by the
wrist any longer. If the issue comes, you may tell the government to stop all
emigration across the continent, for the Indians will kill all who attempt it."
(Brigham Young letter to U. S. Army Captain Stewart van Vliet, September 7,
1857---which was six days after his council with the Indians, and the very day
the Indians first attacked the Fancher train.)

Some Mormons who participated in the MMM claimed that some of the emigrants
were among those who had killed Mormon "prophets" Joseph and Hyrum Smith and
Parley P. Pratt.

Brigham Young instituted an "oath of vengeance" into his temple endowment
ceremony, wherein patrons vowed to "pray to Almighty God to avenge the death of
the prophets unto the third and fourth generation."

In 18561, upon viewing the crude memorial erected at the MMM site by U. S. Army
soldiers, Brigham Young stated, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, and I have
taken a little."

In a sermon during that same visit south, Young stated "that the company that
was used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothers, Bros., sisters
& connections of those that murdered the Prophets; they merited their fate, &
the
only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the women & children, but
that under the circumstances this could not be avoided." (John D. Lee diary,
May 30, 1861.)

These statements of Brigham Young's make it obvious that he was not sorry that
the attack and massacre had taken place; he only regretted that the "innocent
blood" of the women and children had been spilt.

>In
>fact Bigley said John D. Lee had to round up the Paiutes in order to
>kill as many people as his group and the Paiutes killed.

The author's name is "Bagley." And Lee was sent to round up the Paiutes by his
superiors Dame and Haight, who had received their orders from George A. Smith
and possibly Dimick Huntington.

Young's war council with 12 southern Indian chiefs on September 1 makes it
obvious that the idea to "round up" the Indians to attack the emigrants
originated in that meeting. Lee was only one of several Mormon men who spoke
the Indians' language and had earned their trust enough to make them follow him
when he went to call them to the raid.

>The Paiutes
>certainly didn't act like a group of people on a mission from Brigham
>Young to murder Alexander Fancher et al.

Exactly how else would you characterize a bunch of Indians attacking an
unsuspecting wagon train at dawn, and immediately killing some 10-15 of the
emigrants, before they were forced to retreat by the emigrants' return fire?

>It is pretty clear that Lee was acting on orders from William
>Dame and the local stake president, Isaac Haight. There is no evi-
>dence that Haight or Dame were acting on orders from Young.

As I've written numerous times now, Young's original plan, as evidenced from
Dimick Huntington's journal entry of September 1 and Lee's account, was for
only the Indians to do the actual attacking, with the local Mormon leaders
hiding out of sight to supervise the Indians and divvy up the loot afterwards.

It was the Indians' failure in the initial attack which forced the Mormons to
come out of hiding and deceive the emigrants into giving up their arms,
whereupon mowing them down.

But Young's foreknowledge and approval of the attack, his statements after the
attack which I've repeated above, and his nearly 20-year efforts to cover up
the incident and blame it on the Indians make it obvious that Young was the man
ultimately responsible for the entire event.

>Bigley went from Young's "gift" of the cattle and his invective
>against the approaching Johnston's Army and the murder of Parley Pratt
>in Arkansas to the conclusion that Young ordered the massacre.

"Bagley." And those conclusions did not originate from Bagley; Juanita Brooks
included the Johnson's Army and Pratt murder factors in her 1950 book, and
anybody who has even a passing knowledge of the MMM was aware of those factors
long before Bagley published his book.

What Bagley added to the mix was the fact that Porter Rockwell had rushed
Eleanor McLean to Utah after Pratt's murder, and she "fingered" the Fancher
party as being among those who had murdered Pratt. Of course, that was an
utter lie, since the Fancher party had asembled and left Arkansas before Hector
McLean even killed Pratt. The mentally unstable Eleanor made the accusation,
and the fanatical theocratic dictator Brigham Young believed her.

> I
>guess I can see how Bigley came to that conclusion, but it's not for
>me.

Sounds to me like what you need to do is educate yourself on the facts instead
of trying to form conclusions based on ignorance.

>People draw pictures of Haight, Dame, and Lee as people who
>wouldn't dare make move their little fingers without direction from
>Brigham Young; I have never been convinced that held true for _any_
>Mormon of any era.

If you believe that, then you are too ignorant of Mormon history and culture to
even begin to discuss the MMM.

I suggest you begin to reverse your ignorance by reading Lee's confession at

http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/brondel/archive/lee1.htm

Pay particular attention to such statements as:

"I believe that I must tell all that I do know, and tell everything just as the
same transpired. I shall tell the truth and permit the public to judge who is
most to blame for the crime that I am accused of committing. I did not act
alone; I had many to assist me at the Mountain Meadows. I believe that most of
those who were connected with the Massacre, and took part in the lamentable
transaction that has blackened the character of all who were aiders or abettors
in the same, were acting under the impression that they were performing a
religious duty. I know all were acting under the orders and by the command of
their Church leaders; and I firmly believe that the most of those who took part
in the proceedings, considered it a religious duty to unquestioningly obey the
orders which they had received. That they acted from a sense of duty to the
Mormon Church, I never doubted."

You might also want to pay attention to such teachings of Mormon leaders as:

"When Brother Joseph Smith lived, he was our Prophet, our Seer, and our
Revelator; he was our dictator in the things of God, and it was for us to
listen to him, and do just as he told us." (Heber C. Kimball, JoD, vol. 2, p.
106.)

"Learn to do as you are told.....if you are told by your leader to do such a
thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong." (Heber C.
Kimball, JoD, vol. 6, p. 32.)

"If you do things according to counsel and they are wrong, the consequences
will fall on the heads of those who counseled you; so don't be troubled."
(Journal of William Clayton, p. 334.)

"God placed Joseph Smith at the head of this church; God has likewise placed
Brigham Young at the head of this church;...we are commanded to give heed to
their words in all things, and receive their words as from the mouth of God..."
(Orson Pratt, JoD, vol. 7, pp. 374-5.)

"Whatever principles I may have imbibed during my scientific researches, yet,
if the Prophet of God should tell me that a certain principle or theory I might
have learned was not true, I do not care what my ideas might have been, I
should consider it my duty, at the suggestion of my file leader, to abandon
that principle or theory." (Wilford Woodruff, JoD, vol. 5, p. 83.)

"The Lord Almighty leads this church, and he will never suffer you to be led
astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly
as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you
astray." (Brigham Young, JoD, vol. 9, p. 289.)

You might also want to educate yourself on the "Oath of Vengeance", wherein
Mormon temple patrons swore to obey the orders of church leaders above those,
or contrary to, the laws of the land.

> I think it's totally possible that the anger and
>desire for vengeance of Haight and Dame alone could have been respon-
>sible for the murders at Mountain Meadows.
>
> ---Kevin Simonson


And the statements of Brigham Young and other Mormons I've provided above prove
you wrong. Haight and Dame didn't instigate the "Oath of Vengeance", and they
didn't meet with 12 Indian chiefs in a war council on September 1.

It was Brigham Young who did those things.

Now, the question is, what will you do with this information? Ignore it? Or
will you adopt Red Davis' attitude, and pretend that the evidence doesn't mean
what it says?

Randy J.


Mike W

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 8:18:39 PM6/22/03
to
> "Kevin Simonson" <kvns...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com...

> > ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> > news:^2-2106030...@192.168.1.201...

<snip>

> > 'tis SOP, Kevin

> Rich, what does SOP mean?

I believe he means "Standard Operating Procedure".

Mike


Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 10:32:50 PM6/22/03
to
In alt.religion.mormon Kevin Simonson <kvns...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
> news:<bd24rm$l9n$1...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...

> =Your anecdote in no way explains why a mob edescended upon Haun's Mill.
> =The activities of Rigdon and Smith, their organization of a paramilitary
> =force that razed Gallatin and other MO towns, threatened with deadly force
> =all curch members not willing to cough up their family possessions into
> =the common coffer (this includes the casting out of Whitmer), attacked the
> =MO Militia at Crooked Creek killing several members, is the direct cause
> =of the angry mob.

> Clovis, you talk about "the angry mob" like it was a mudslide
> that, set in motion as you say by Smith and Rigdon, was impossible to
> stop before it killed the seventeen people who died at Haun's Mill.

> I'm really not much of a historian, so I can't comment on whether

"The females hastily took from the houses what they could carry,
and here I might say there was almost a trial of my faith in my
pity for our enemies... Among the women was one, young married
and apparently near her confinement, and another with small
children and not a wagon, and many miles away from any of their
friends, and snow had begun already... to fall. My sympathies
were drawn toward the women and children, but I would in no
degree let them deter me from duty. So while others were
pillaging for something to carry away, I was doing my best to
protect... the lives and comfort of the families who were
dependent on getting away upon horse-back....While others were
doing the burning and plunder, my mission was of mercy....Before
noon we had set all on fire and left upon a circuitous route
towards home."
-- Benjamin F. Johnson


> the mob was motivated by the atrocities of which you spoke. But I
> know for a fact that "the angry mob" was made up of individual people,
> several of which made individual choices to fire loaded guns at inno-
> cent people. Why is it so hard for you to admit that these individual
> people committed individual acts of murder? Regardless of what Smith
> and Rigdon did, _it was still completely against the law_ in the state
> of Missouri for these people to kill those seventeen.

> Maybe the seventeen _were_ victims of Smith and Rigdon; I don't
> know whether they were or not. _But what is abundantly clear_ is that
> if enough people had exercised their free will and chosen not to kill
> those innocent lives, they would not have died. If Smith and Rigdon
> were responsible for the deaths, they were _indirectly_ responsible;
> the men who raided the settlement themselves were _directly_ respon-
> sible.

> Let me ask once again, Clovis: _who were_ those men who raided
> Haun's Mill? Can you give me one name? Is that why you're trying to
> pin it on Smith and Rigdon, because you can name them but you can't
> name the people who fired the guns? If so then you've made my point.

See above...

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 10:43:39 PM6/22/03
to


Let us be frank, or nancy, whatever...

Haun's Mill stands as a unique experience. Lest this detail be plowed
under, NO persecution occurred in NY. None in OH, None in PA, None in UT.
The only mentions are Haun's Mill in MO and Nauvoo in IL. In both cases,
the majority of believers were unaffected. Both cases involved Smith or
Smith and Rigdon taking thae law into their hands for their own benefit
regardless of the impact upon their defenseless followers. Many more
innocent true believers, many paupers in a strange land, died drawing
handcarts under the carrot of a great promise of fulfillment once they
reached Zion. They died from the elements, supposedly under their gawd's
control. Furthermore, many of these same folks, were sent by Brother
Brigham to populate the uninhabitable southwest of Deseret and to secure
this region regardless of the fact that they came from culture and
environments that made them the worst candidates for this. Think about
it. what does this suggest?

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 9:03:42 AM6/23/03
to
In article <20030622181631...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:

> >From: robpar...@airmail.net (robert parker)
> >Date: 6/22/2003 3:26 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3ef90fc8...@news.airmail.net>
> >
> >On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:38:17 -0700, ^2...@vc.net (€R.L. Measures)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
> >>kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> >>...

** Randy -- this was a readable and informative dissertation on the
history of Mormon "consecration". It leaves no doubt that Rigdon and
Smith were megalomaniacs of the first order. Your dissertation deserves
to be posted on a Web site or to become part of a book.

congrats

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 9:12:59 AM6/23/03
to
In article <20030622184417...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:

> >From: kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson)
> >Date: 6/20/2003 4:25 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
> >news:<bcnqmp$d3r$5...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
> >

> >...


> > By the way, Clovis, I'm still waiting for the names of that man
> >and his companion, or of _any_ of the people who killed the seventeen
> >that died at Haun's Mill. Do you have any of those names yet?
> >
> > ---Kevin Simonson
>
> I posted that information to ARM more than a week ago, and I cc'd it to your
> e-mail, as I'm doing with this post also. Perhaps you simply neglect to read
> information which you have requested, so that you can pretend that it hasn't
> been provided to you.
>

** Remaining a faithful mormon is a bunch easier if one does not read
unfaithbuilding info.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 9:28:56 AM6/23/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-2106030...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => => Or perhaps the Mormons that burned raped and looted the country
> => => side, causing the raid on the criminals at Haun`s mill.
> =>
> => I didn't see Robert Parker's original article, so I'm forced to
> => respond to its second-hand transmission, through Rich's article. It
> => is as likely that Mormons "burned raped and looted the country side"
> => as it is that the Fancher Company committed the atrocities Mormons
> => said they committed.
> =
> =? would it be likely for cattle herders to poison cattle watering holes?
>
> Rich, you missed my point entirely. After reading Bigley's book
> I became very skeptical that the Fancher Company ever poisoned cattle
> watering holes or committed any of the other atrocities attributed to
> them. All I'm saying is that I'm _also_ skeptical of claims that Mor-
> mons "burned raped and looted the country side."
>

** I have heard no report of Danites raping either females or males.
Nocturnal thievery/burning/and killing defenders was apparently their
speciality. Smith and Rigdon referred to thievery/looting as
"consecration" to the Lord.

> =>As Bigley pointed out, it's always easy to blame
> => the victims after they've been wiped out and can't defend themselves.
> =>
> ='tis SOP, Kevin
>
> Rich, what does SOP mean?
>

** Standard Operating Procedure. . Hmmmmm. So if proceed has an ee in
it why does procedure have only one e? Is English spelling nuts or what?

cheerz, Kevin.

€R.L. Measures

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 9:57:03 AM6/23/03
to
In article <6dfb1603.03062...@posting.google.com>,
kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

> ^2...@vc.net (?R.L. Measures) wrote in message
> news:<^2-2106030...@192.168.1.201>...
>
> => Actually, I'd be satisfied if some non-LDS author were to just
> => write a book, naming the people that probably did the killing, and at-
> => tempting to give some kind of an explanation for why they were never
> => prosecuted.
> =>
> =? a bridge too far. The RCC will probably never come 100% clean about
> =the altar-boy problem because there's just too much embarrassing shit..
>
> Then we have a double standard, don't we? Bigley attempts to
> hold the LDS Church responsible for the Mountain Meadow Massacre (and
> he should, by the way),

** indeed

>but society turns a blind eye to massacres
> when it's the Mormons getting killed, instead of doing the killing.

** The difference is that the Fancher Company had not been conducting
nocturnal raids against mormon towns. If Smith and Rigdon's
"consecration" program (Danite raids on Gallatin, MO et cetera) had not
occurred, there would have been no reason for a preemptory strike against
mormons..

>
> This isn't an entirely LDS phenomenon, by the way. I was reading
> a bit of history of Central Australia where over a course of years
> three white men got killed, and something on the order of seventy Abo-
> rigines got killed, in a bit of violence they had. Guess the race of
> the victims named in this history?
>

** human?

> The moral of this story is that when the predominant race locks
> horns with an underdog, people notice when members of the predominant
> race die, but not when members of the underdog race die.
>

** In MO, in the 1830s, the aggressors were the followers of Rigdon and
Smith. The laugher is that Smith even tried to boink Rigdon's gorgeous
teenage daughter, Nancy.

> => Note that I'm _not_ asking for an apology from our current day's
> => religious representatives of the pastors that may have urged on the
> => perpetrators of the Haun's Mill massacre. A similar apology from Gor-
> => don Hinckley et al seems to be what Bigley's after.
> =>
> =? forgetaboutit. No matter where you find them, holy men hate like
> =hell to apologize for err because they fear of loss of respect -- which is
> =the very reason they choose this vocation. The RCC did not apologize for
> =Copernicus/Galileo flat-earth scandal until October, 1992.
>
> Actually, Hinckley has already shown that he can apologize. He
> apologized to the people of Hartford, Connecticut when the Church de-
> cided not to build a temple there, but rather built two in Boston and
> White Plains instead. So it's feasible he could apologize for other
> things instead.

** apologizing for church-ordered thievery in MO is more than unlikely
because it would reveal the root cause of the massacre at Haun's Mill.

> But I don't think he's going to apologize for Moun-
> tain Meadows until it's very clear that Brigham Young was directly re-
> sponsible for the murders, and we're not there yet.
>

** and we probably never will be either because historian Juanita Brooks
burned the historical evidence. Maybe it will all come out in the wash on
judgement day. And who knows ?-- we might find out that the erie purple
flames Juanita saw were a message.

later, Kevin
have phun

TheJordan6

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 8:26:36 PM6/23/03
to
>From: ^2...@vc.net (€R.L. Measures)
>Date: 6/23/2003 8:03 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <^2-2306030...@192.168.1.201>

>
>In article <20030622181631...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
>thejo...@aol.com (TheJordan6) wrote:
>
>> >From: robpar...@airmail.net (robert parker)
>> >Date: 6/22/2003 3:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <3ef90fc8...@news.airmail.net>
>> >
>> >On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:38:17 -0700, ^2...@vc.net (€R.L. Measures)

>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <6dfb1603.0306...@posting.google.com>,
>> >>kvns...@hotmail.com (Kevin Simonson) wrote:
>> >>...
>
>** Randy -- this was a readable and informative dissertation on the
>history of Mormon "consecration". It leaves no doubt that Rigdon and
>Smith were megalomaniacs of the first order. Your dissertation deserves
>to be posted on a Web site or to become part of a book.
>
>congrats
>
>--
>Rich

Those books have already been written, and websites containing the information
already exist. I quoted many such works in my post. I merely compiled the
information into a brief, readable text.

A few web resources on the Mormon troubles in Missouri are:

Senate Document 189 (under
construction):http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1838Sent.htm

Bishop John Corrill's "A Brief History of the
Church":http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1830s/1839Corl.htm

Benjamin Johnson's "My Life's
Review":http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Lds/LDS/Early-Saints/BFJohnson.html

The "Reed Peck Manuscript":http://www.connect-a.net/users/drshades/reedpeck.htm

Ebenezer Robinson's "The
Return":http://www.kingdomofzion.org/doctrines/library/journals/Robinson,E
benezer.txt

David Whitmer's "Address To All Believers in
Christ":http://www.helpingmormons.org/address.htm

David Whitmer's 1887 letter to Joseph Smith
lll:http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/dw_let1.htm

John Whitmer's "History of the

Church":http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/jw_hist.htm

Randy J.

Roy Stogner

unread,
Jun 23, 2003, 9:43:19 PM6/23/03
to
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:26:36 +0000, TheJordan6 wrote:

This link (at least; I haven't checked the others) is no longer at that
site; you can still find it at archive.org.
---
Roy Stogner