TO ART BULLA: Answer this (anothert question Art Bulla can't answer)
darrick...@yahoo.com
You claim that the LDS Church is in "full apostasy" because the Church
began ordaining black men in 1978.
But....
Joseph Smith had Elijah Abel ordained, and he was black. In 1847,
Brigham Young said "We have one of the best Elders an African in
Lowell". Walker Lewis was black, and married to a white woman. He was
ordained an Elder in 1846. William McCary was ordained in 1945.
Elijah's son and grandson were ordained Elders, and they were black.
How can you explain this Art?
You won't Art, you will ingore it; because you can't answer it.
Which only proves....you are self-deluded.
JOSHUA cursed by Art Bulla to go to hell!
That's a good one! God must have inspired this post! Keep up the good
works; Well Done!
I am going to keep this post in my special files, for Art Bulla can
never answer this questioning, for he is uninspired, and does not know
if he is coming or going!
Joshua
IncoWarren
careful!
Jeff Needle
<darrick...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114039257.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Art,
>
> You claim that the LDS Church is in "full apostasy" because the Church
> began ordaining black men in 1978.
>
> But....
>
> Joseph Smith had Elijah Abel ordained, and he was black. In 1847,
> Brigham Young said "We have one of the best Elders an African in
> Lowell".
Can you give me the cite for this? Thanks.
John G.
> Which only proves....you are self-deluded.
>
Darrick,
The very thing you accuse Art of doing, you do yourself. I am still waiting
for the answer on why you distorted the context of the scripture and say
that Jesus would come "as a thief in the night" to Muhammad in a cave.
Please quote the context and exact scriptural passage you use.
Also, Joseph Smith said that if he lived until he was 85 years old, he would
see Jesus coming again in around 1890. Jesus is NOT Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'
lláh was a sinner.
John G.
darrick...@yahoo.com
With his tail cut short, and his hair cut long, O where O where can he
beeeeeeeee?????
Yet MORE evidence that Art Bulla is a FALSE prophet!
darrick...@yahoo.com
for the very LAST TIME.....this is my LAST reponse to fools like you.
Art Bulla
1 WHY do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in
derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore
displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;
this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and
the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces
like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his
wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in
him.
(Old Testament | Psalms 2:1 - 12)
--
Concerning quotes (out of context): these are distortions, taken out of the
context of
the blasphemies and insults placed upon me by the vilest of traitors and
foul wretches
imagineable. Jesus kicked their asses out of the Temple and I do the same to
all god damned liars and hypocrites. I make no apology. God is my judge. If
this fellow (Manning) were honest he would include these, and all would see
that I am
justified by the Lord in my responses. The word of the Lord is given on
the matter in the following:
Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice,
and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys
of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according
to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
Let no one, therefore, set on my servant for I will justify him. saith the
Lord your God.
Manning is as mendacious about not being a queer as Ward Churchill is about
being an Indian. Typical of the delusional left. Not moored in truth or
reality.
THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS:
Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.
"Nothing has more retarded the advancement of learning than the disposition
of vulgar minds to ridicule and vilify what they do not understand."
Dr.Samuel Johnson.
The Revelations of Jesus Christ:
<http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-28287-3>
Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg.68
As it has always been, and will be yet for some time, when the sons
of God assemble together Satan will be on hand as an accuser of the
brethren, to find fault with those who are trying to do good.
"But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call
down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are
indebted
to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God
has
spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Joseph Smith
"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the
one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge
and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over
preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of
righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the
creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229,
George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866
"Some men are natural born saints; whenever a principle is advanced they
understand it, and drink it in; * * * while there are others who do not
understand and oppose every principle that is not clear to their mind. This
can be accounted for, that we are not all pure blooded, for Ephraim became
foolish and mixed up with the gentiles. When we find the pure blood of
Ephraim, we find a natural born child of God and there is nothing in the
gospel that is objectionable to them, but the others have to exercise faith
in God and humble themselves before Him and live for it." (Deseret Weekly,
50:250-251)
35 And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall
be sent away, and shall not inherit the land.
36 For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim,
wherefore they shall be plucked out.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 64:35 - 36)
<darrick...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114039257.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Art Bulla
dishonest.
"Then, according to the "Minutes of the Seventies Journal", December 20,
1836, kept by Hazen Aldrich, it shows that Elijah Abel was ordained to the
Priesthood by Zebedee Coltrin. Coltrin later admitted that he had been
instructed two years prior to that date (1834) that he was NOT to give the
Priesthood to a Negro." Segregation of Israel, Ogden Kraut.
Ibid:
The Salt Lake Tribune reported in an October 26, 1970, article, "The
Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from
Elijah Abel, and to revoke the ordinations."
So even though Elijah had only a very small percentage of Negro blood, he
was still not supposed to have the Priesthood. He did go on an LDS mission
in 1883, but there is no record of his performing any Priesthood ordinance
work.
Brigham Young made some very forceful statements concerning the status of
the Black race and the Priesthood:
We know there is a portion of inhabitants of the earth who dwell in Asia
that are Negroes, and said to be Jews. The blood of Judah has not only
mingled almost with all nations, but also with the blood of Cain, and they
have mingled their seeds together. These Negro Jews may keep up all the
outer ordinances of the Jewish religion; they may have their sacrifices, and
they may perform all the religious ceremonies any people on earth could
perform, but let me tell you, that the day they consented to mingle their
seed with Canaan, the priesthood was taken away from Judah, and that portion
of Judah's seed will never get any rule, or blessings of the priesthood
until Cain gets it. Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on
the earth; we will summons the first presidency, the twelve, the high
counsel, the bishopric, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons
them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed,
with the Black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be
partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day
and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and
kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with
the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction-we should receive the
curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be
numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until
that curse be removed. * * *
What the Gentiles are doing we are consenting to do. What we are trying to
do today is to make the Negro equal with us in all our privilege. My voice
shall be against it all the day long. I shall not consent for one moment. I
will call them a counsel. I say I will not consent for one moment for you to
lay a plan to bring a curse upon this people. It shall not be while I am
here. (Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, dated Feb. 5,
1852, located in the LDS Church Historical Dept., SLC, Utah; also Teachings
of Brigham Young, Collier, ed., pp. 45, 46)
Brigham Young did state, however, that the time would come when the Blacks
would have a chance to receive the Priesthood:
When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the
Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed
from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection
from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and
his posterity. (JD 2:142-43)
They never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other
descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of
the Priesthood and the keys thereof. (JD 7:290)
When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings,
then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain. . . . (JD 7:291)
When all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy
Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain. (JD
11:272)
Pressure from Without and Within
For nearly 150 years, the LDS Church maintained this same position on
Blacks not being able to hold the Priesthood. But outside pressures upon the
Church grew and so did arguments, both pro and con, over this issue. In 1924
Joseph F. Smith noted that-
The question arises from time to time in regard to the Negro race and the
Priesthood. . . . It is true that the Negro race is barred from holding the
Priesthood, and this has always been the case. The Prophet Joseph Smith
taught this doctrine. . . . (Imp. Era 27:564)
Civil rights became a big issue, and on October 5, 1963, an item appeared
in the Deseret News which stated that the NAACP would picket Temple Square
on Saturday if the Church did not present an "acceptable" statement on civil
rights [207] before that day. Mormon leaders apparently realized the bad
publicity that would result from this kind of demonstration, so on October
6, 1963, Hugh B. Brown issued a very wise statement regarding civil rights
and religious issues:
During recent months, both in Salt Lake City and across the nation,
considerable interest has been expressed on the matter of civil rights. We
would like it to be known that there is in this Church no doctrine, belief,
or practice, that is intended to deny the enjoyment of full civil rights by
any person regardless of race, color, or creed.
We say again, as we have said many times before, that we believe that all
men are the children of the same God, and that it is a moral evil for any
person or group of persons to deny any human being the right to gainful
employment, to full educational opportunity, and to every privilege of
citizenship, just as it is a moral evil to deny him the right to worship
according to the dictates of his own conscience. (Des. News, Oct. 6, 1963)
This was an outstanding announcement which should have been defended and
explained more fully. First, the Church did not believe or practice any form
of denial of civil rights to any people. Second, the Church as well as
anyone else should have the right to worship according to the dictates of
their conscience. If the NAACP, the Government or anyone else attempted to
tell the Mormon Church they had to bestow, restrict or prohibit the
Priesthood, then they were denying the Church their right to worship. The
Church was in no way under an obligation to listen to civil clamor on how to
practice their religion.
In the area of sports, there seemed to be more activity outside the arena
than inside. For example, in San Jose, California, a 24,000-student campus
exhibited violence in the form of beatings, vandalism and trash fires,
initiated by the [208] "United Black Students for Action" to insure
cancellation of a football game with BYU because of their "racist
philosophy". (S.L. Tribune, Dec. 3, 1968)
In Tucson, Arizona, students asked the Western Athletic Conference to
"break ties with Brigham Young University" because of their racial policies.
(S.L. Tribune, Oct. 25, 1969)
Stanford University announced they would "schedule no new athletic or other
competitions with BYU. . . ." (S.L. Tribune, Nov. 13, 1969)
In 1974 the Boy Scout organization pressed charges against the LDS Church
because a 12-year-old Black boy could not become a senior patrol leader
since one of the requirements was to be a Deacons Quorum President, a
position he could not hold without having the Priesthood. The Church
immediately changed the requirement just before their scheduled court
appearance.
The national news media pressured the Church from without, and liberal
Mormons pushed from within. Bruce McConkie tried to quell the liberals:
Am I valiant if I am deeply concerned about the Church's stand on who can
or who cannot receive the priesthood and think it is time for a new
revelation on this doctrine . . . ?
Am I valiant if I engage in gambling, play cards, go to pornographic
movies. . . ? (Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 35)
On September 6, 1977, President Spencer W. Kimball spoke to the BYU faculty
and studentbody, stating that "The Gospel is made up of absolute truths that
do not change regardless of contrary opinions or beliefs of men." (Des.
[209] News, Sept. 10, 1977) Certainly the Gospel doctrine of restricting
Blacks from the Priesthood during mortality should be considered as one of
those "absolute truths".
Bruce McConkie supported this position:
Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can
they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. * * * It is the
Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the
lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate. (Mormon
Doctrine, pp. 527-28)
The 1978 Announcement
However, less than a year after President Kimball made this statement at
BYU, a news release by the First Presidency made the following announcement:
All worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood
without regard for race or color. (Des. News, June 9, 1978, front page)
On June 8th a letter had been issued to Church general and local Priesthood
members with this same information. However, neither announcement contained
a copy of a revelation from God instructing that such a change should take
place.
News of the change was welcomed and hailed around the world! It was
apparent that enough pressure had been put on the Church hierarchy to get
the desired results.
Many rumors and stories circulated about this announcement, but the most
detailed account was attributed to Apostle LeGrand Richards. On August 16,
1978, he allegedly had a [210] taped interview with Chris Vlachos and Wesley
Walters, in the Church Office Building. Excerpts from the published account
follow:
Walters: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all
kinds of stories: I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles; I've
heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that
Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time, and simply
shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time
to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all?
Richards: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what
provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the
population there that it's hard to get leaders that don't have Negro blood
in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in
October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising the
money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it.
Well, Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it. He
asked each one of us of the Twelve if we would pray-and we did-that the Lord
would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then
he invited each one of us in his office-individually, because you know when
you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your
heart. You're part of the group, see-so he interviewed each one of us,
personally, to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it.
Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for or
against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the
colored people the priesthood. Then we had a meeting where we meet every
week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group together, and then we
prayed about it in our prayer circle, and then we held another prayer circle
after the close of that meeting, and he (President Kimball) led in the
prayer, praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed
to do the thing [211] that would be pleasing to Him and for the blessing of
His children.
And then the next Thursday-we meet every Thursday-the Presidency came with
this little document written out to make the announcement-to see how we'd
feel about it-and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of
the Twelve suggested a few changes in the announcement, and then in our
meeting there we all voted in favor of it-the Twelve and the Presidency. One
member of the Twelve, Mark Petersen, was down in South America, but Brother
Benson, our President, had arranged to know where he could be reached by
phone, and right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother
Kimball talked with Brother Petersen, and read him this article, and he
(Petersen) approved of it.
Walters: What was the date? Would that have been the first of June, or
something?
Richards: That was the first Thursday, I think, in May. (June?) At least
that's about when it was. And then after we all voted in favor of it, we
called another meeting for the next morning, Friday morning, at seven
o'clock, of all the other General Authorities-that includes the Seventies'
Quorum and the Patriarch and the Presiding Bishopric, and it was presented
to them, and they all had an opportunity to express themselves, and there
were a few of the brethren that were out presiding then in the missions, and
so the Twelve were appointed to interview each one of them. * * *
Walters: Now when President Kimball read this little announcement or paper,
was that the same thing that was released to the press?
Richards: Yes. * * *
Richards: Well, they have held out the thought that they would ultimately
get the priesthood, but they never determined the time for it. And so when
this situation that we face down there in Brazil-Brother Kimball worried a
lot about it-how the people are so faithful and devoted. The president of
the Relief Society of the stake is a colored woman down there in one of the
stakes. If they do the work, why it seems like that the justice of the Lord
would approve of giving them the [212] blessing. Now it's all conditional
upon the life that they live, isn't it?
Walters: Well, I thank you for clarifying that for me, because you know,
out in the streets out there, there must be at least five, ten different
stories about the way this happened.
Richards: Well, I've told you exactly what happened.
Walters: Right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Richards: If you quote me, you will be telling the truth.
Walters: OK, well fine. You don't mind if we quote you then?
Richards: No.
Walters: OK, that's great!
(The complete interview was privately published in a separate pamphlet. See
Segregation of Israel, Kraut, pp. 184-88.)
Because of this change in Church doctrine, some serious back-peddling had
to take place. Bruce McConkie tired to justify the new position when he
spoke to the seminary and institute teachers at BYU:
Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or
President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is
contrary to the present revelation. * * * They don't matter any more.
It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the
Negro matter before the first day of June of this year (1978). It is a new
day and a new arrangement, * * * As to any slivers of light or any particles
of darkness of the past, we forget all about them.
The "powers that be" in the LDS Church, in order to be consistent with this
new policy about the Blacks holding the Priesthood, even went so far as to
change a passage of scripture. In the Book of Mormon Nephi predicts-
[213] And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing
unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to
fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them,
save they shall be a white and delight-some people. (2 Nephi 30:6)
In the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon, the word white in the last
phrase was changed to pure.
A Chosen People
The restoration of the Gospel by Joseph Smith brought back a knowledge of
the true doctrines of the Gospel, among which was the command to gather the
Israelites back to their rightful place as "kings and priests unto God
forever." Only through these "chosen" Israelites can the New Jerusalem be
built, the promised Zion be established, and the Kingdom of God be given its
rightful place of ruling the nations of the earth.
God has a reason for making certain selections and separations during the
pre-existence and mortality of mankind. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were
leaders in raising a particular kind of people before they came to earth. In
mortality those select people were born into Israel's lineage. Eventually
everyone that goes to heaven will discover that it, too, has been segregated
into various degrees of glory-the highest having been promised to the
Israelites.
To summarize
1. The right to bear the Priesthood was determined in the Pre-Existence,
based on worthiness of the individual spirit.
[214]
2. The ancient prophets restricted Priesthood to those in the lineage of
Abraham and the House of Israel.
3. Christ sought out those of the House of Israel and told His disciples to
do the same.
4. The seed of Cain were restricted from the Priesthood.
5. With the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith, the same
restrictions applied to the gathering of Israel, and he re-established the
doctrine of prohibiting Priesthood to the Black race.
6. Brigham Young and other Church presidents continued that doctrine for
nearly 150 years.
7. Increased pressure from sports, civil rights and Government
organizations, as well as from liberal Mormons, was put on the Church to do
something about this issue.
8. In June 1978 the official announcement was made that "all worthy male
members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for
race or color."
9. No written revelation changing this doctrine has ever been produced.
10. Elder LeGrand Richards admitted that it was not a "Thus saith the Lord"
revelation, but that the announcement was written up before any claim of
revelation; it was voted on and passed.
11. Selections and segregations are instituted by God, and only the "chosen
Israelites" can establish Zion and the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem.
Ogden Kraut, Segregation of Israel.
"Jeff Needle" <jeff....@general-net.com> wrote in message
news:116drvg...@corp.supernews.com...
Art Bulla
form of a woman, neither of a man traveling on the earth.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 49:22)
I pointed this verse out to him months ago, and he said Bahá'u'lláh. did not
travel on the earth! Typical response from this deluded fellow. This exact
post was answered by Aaron Kim about a week ago, and Aaron used a former
post of mine which answered him about two years ago. So this fellow is a
base liar.
"John G." <johngq8...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:WcC9e.11194$Jg5.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Art Bulla
19th!
Aaron wrote:
What a lie. Art has answered this many times before. I remember when I
answered this. Could it be because you don't want the truth?
Here is post from Art to the very same question on March 25, 2005:
In fact the following post in 2002 was in answer to your post on Oct
27,
2002: your stupid book on historical revisionsim. This shows you are a
base
liar and a hypocrite, for you know I answered it then, but you
intetnionally
slandered me in order to set me up for your illogical arguments to
follow.
Go to hell you God damned miscreant. Nothing you say has any
credibility.
The post, Oct 28 2002, 9:06 am:
Don't need no liberal back-peddling propaganda book:
The Salt Lake Tribune reported in an October 26, 1970, article, "The
Prophet Joseph
Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from
Elijah Abel, and to
revoke the ordinations."
Secondly, he had to revoke Priesthood from a personal friend which was
embarrassing and painful for him. According to Thomas Shreeve, Elijah
Abel
himself related the experience to him:
"The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the
priesthood
from Elijah Able, and revoke the ordination. There is no exception. The
continued church's policy over the years is an evident fact that
Presidents
Young, Taylor, Woodruff and Snow, as well as Heber C. Kimball, William
Clayton, and other leaders of the time, all knew of this excluding
doctrine
and continued to abide by it. Although there is no official Church
record as
to the revocation, Elijah Able affirmed the fact to father, Thomas A.
Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during
1872-1877.
At the time, Bro. Able told young Thomas, who baptized Able's
grandchildren,
that the Prophet Joseph "came to him with tears in his eyes one day,
and
told him [Abel] that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the
holy
priesthood from him."
"Patriarch Shreeve testified many times before his death in 1931 of
the
facts in the case, and of his close relationship with Brother Able. As
of
this date there are still living three members of the Shreeve family,
who
know of the facts to which their father testified Elijah Able told
him."
(Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr., The Salt Lake Tribune, "Forum," 26 Oct. 1970)
So even though Elijah had only a very small percentage of Negro blood,
he
was still not supposed to have the Priesthood. He did go on an LDS
mission
in 1883, but there is no record of his performing any Priesthood
ordinance
work.
Brigham Young made some very forceful statements concerning the status
of
the Black race and the Priesthood:
We know there is a portion of inhabitants of the earth who dwell in
Asia
that are Negroes, and said to be Jews. The blood of Judah has not only
mingled [205] almost with all nations, but also with the blood of Cain,
Aaron
RetroProphet
>>> Art,
>>>
>>> You claim that the LDS Church is in "full apostasy" because
>>> the Church began ordaining black men in 1978.
>>>
>>> But....
>>>
>>> Joseph Smith had Elijah Abel ordained, and he was black. In 1847,
>>> Brigham Young said "We have one of the best Elders an African in
>>> Lowell".
>>>
>>
>> Can you give me the cite for this? Thanks.
>>
>> Jeff Needle
>>
>
>Jeff, he cannot, for I do not believe it exists.
>I know the man to be dishonest.
>
>Art Bulla
Art, do you "not believe it exists" because you are
unfamiliar with the following citation (hard to believe),
or because you are familiar, but reject its authenticity?
(easy to believe, but hardly reason not to provide
what was requested, namely a citation, nor to assert
that nobody could provide it.) Which is it, ignorance
or misinformation? Is your faith getting in the way,
again?
Below is the full quote citation, its historical
context, and the circumstances of how it came to
be first published.
Reading the whole story of how the black priesthood
ban came to be after Joseph Smith's death
(which is online at the URL below)
leads one to the conclusion that it only became
an issue when church leadership was confronted
with a black elder who wanted to have white wives.
How much more clear can this possibly be made than
having Young praise a black elder while chastising
another black elder who wanted white wives, three
years after Joseph Smith is dead?
I suspect that Joseph Smith, had he been confronted
with the case of McCary, might very well have done
what Young and the other elders did. But he wasn't,
and he didn't, and cannot be considered the source
of an explicit black priesthood ban.
The clumsy subsequent hearsay attempts to backdate
the ban to Smith for additional legitimacy are just
further evidence of the hollowness of the claim.
The real and driving issue was inter-racial marriage
and the documentation of the events bears this out
as the most reasonable historical explanation.
Why anyone would have a problem with this, is beyond me.
It's just history.
==
Neither White Nor Black:
Mormon Scholars Confront the Race Issue
in a Universal Church
Edited by Lester E. Bush, Jr. and Armand L. Mauss
http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neither6.htm
EXCERPT & RELEVANT FOOTNOTE:
"The troublesome, self-proclaimed black-Indian "prophet,"
William McCary, arrived in Winter Quarters during the
winter of 1846-47. While church leaders initially
tolerated McCary's bizarre activities, by late March he
was clearly in trouble. In a revealing confrontation
with Brigham Young, and Apostles Richards, Orson Pratt,
Benson, Woodruff, and others on 26 March, 1847, Young
informed McCary, "its nothing to do with the blood for
of one blood has God made all flesh, we have to repent
(and) regain what we av lost-we av one of the best
Elders an African in Lowell-[i.e., Walker Lewis]."
McCary shortly after was expelled from the Mormon
community but attracted some followers to his own
curious schismatic brand of Mormonism."
FOOTNOTE
11. This important March 1847 quotation, not previously
published, was called to my attention by Ronald K. Esplin.
It is found in minutes 26 Mar. 1847, Brigham Young Papers,
LDS Church Archives. Its clear implication that there was
no priesthood discrimination based on race at the time
would seem to limit quite narrowly the time interval
in which this practice was first enunciated.
===
RetroProphet
Art Bulla
the same to conform to the godless religion of the left: atheistic humanism
which they impose on the rest of mankind at the point of a gun.
The Salt Lake Tribune reported in an October 26, 1970, article, "The
Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from
Elijah Abel, and to revoke the ordinations."
Secondly, he had to revoke Priesthood from a personal friend which was
embarrassing and painful for him. According to Thomas Shreeve, Elijah Abel
himself related the experience to him:
The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the priesthood
from Elijah Able and revoke the ordination. There is no exception. The
continued church's policy over the years is an evident fact that Presidents
Young, Taylor, Woodruff and Snow, as well as Heber C. Kimball, William
Clayton, and other leaders of the time, all knew of this excluding doctrine
and continued to abide by it. Although there is no official Church record as
to the revocation, Elijah Able affirmed the fact to father, Thomas A.
Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during 1872-1877.
At the time, Bro. Able told young Thomas, who baptized Able's grandchildren,
that the Prophet Joseph "came to him with tears in his eyes one day, and
told him [Abel] that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the holy
priesthood from him."
Patriarch Shreeve testified many times before his death in 1931 of the
facts in the case, and of his close relationship with Brother Able. As of
this date there are still living three members of the Shreeve family, who
know of the facts to which their father testified Elijah Able told him.
(Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr., The Salt Lake Tribune, "Forum," 26 Oct. 1970)
The 1978 Announcement
A Chosen People
To summarize
"RetroProphet" <RetroProp...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:d4ecl...@drn.newsguy.com...
RetroProphet
>
>Typical liberal effeminate fool. Always rationalizing history
>and rewriting the same to conform to the godless religion of
>the left: atheistic humanism which they impose on the rest
>of mankind at the point of a gun.
>
>Art Bulla
>
Where is your rebuttal?
All you've done is to call me a fool and restate
the argument that has just been shredded by the
Brigham Young quote and its context, that you have
left unscathed, that so clearly illuminates the
question at hand that it reduces you to sputtering
debating incompetence.
You first claimed the Young quote was fishy because it
had a slightly vague citation. Then you claimed no valid
citation could be provided. Now, that it is provided,
you have nothing adult to say about it?
I've not rewritten history, you are ignoring history
that is inconvenient to a major underlying premise
of YOUR theology, one that you are apparently willing
to lie about:
>5. With the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith,
>the same restrictions applied to the gathering of Israel,
>and he re-established the doctrine of prohibiting Priesthood
>to the Black race.
WHERE did Joseph Smith re-establish this doctrine?
>6. Brigham Young and other Church presidents continued
>that doctrine for nearly 150 years.
No, they ESTABLISHED this doctrine, themselves, spurred
to primarily because they didn't like the idea of black
Morman elders taking white wives.
Their words and actions speak for themselves.
Walker Lewis was Black, he was an Elder, and as of
March 26, 1847, that was just fine and dandy with
Brigham Young.
YOU are the one rewriting history.
darrick...@yahoo.com
You are WRONG! Elijah Abel was ordained an Elder and a Seventy, and
was a Member of the Third Quorum of Seventy ALL of his life! He was
sent on a mission, and baptized and ordained, while Brigham Young was
President of the Church. His son Enoch and his grandson Elijah were
also ordained Elders.
Joseph Fielding Smith tried to SOLVE this by saying, "There were two
Elijah Abels, one white and one black". JFS later admitted HE WAS
MISTAKEN and that was not true. He INVENTED it (as he had many things).
You're a clown, a false prophet, a liar, and a self-deceived fool.
Art Bulla
You lied and said Joseph ordained Abel, but it was Zebedee Coltrin who did
it contrary to the law. He reported "the worst feeling in my life" after he
had laid hands on him to ordain him. Yours is opinion and historical
revisionism. I lived through this period (Kimball's Cananites) and I know
what the doctrine was prior and now see the rationalizations which come from
false teachers (liberal infidels) ensconced within the Mormon Church today.
I have it from the Holy Ghost what the truth is, and I don't care what you
say about it. You are a fool, saith the Lord. So depart, we have nothing
to talk about.
news:d4hpk...@drn.newsguy.com...
Art Bulla
their own species, and put them on a national equalization. (TPJS, p. 270)
And a year later, January 1844, the Prophet Joseph, as mayor of Nauvoo,
fined two Negroes "for attempting to marry white women." (DHC 6:210) The
Prophet also explained:
. . . that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will
be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the
people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will
come under the least condemnation before Him; . . . (Mess. & Adv. 2:290 &
DHC 2:438)
Here is evidence that the curse is exemplified through "a black skin" and
that when that "curse" is removed, then the dark skin will be removed by "as
great power as caused it to come." Also, a part of that "curse" was the
restriction of the Priesthood.
Abraham O. Smoot inquired of the Prophet Joseph Smith-
What should be done with the Negroes in the South as I was preaching to
them? (Joseph) said I could baptize them by the consent of their masters,
but not to confer the Priesthood upon them. (L. John Nuttall Journal, May
31, 1879)
Details of this account are available from another source:
Brother A. O. Smoot said W. W. Patten, Warren Parrish and Thomas B. Marsh
were laboring in the Southern States in 1835 and 1836. There were Negroes
who made application for baptism. And the question arose with them whether
Negroes were entitled to hold the Priesthood. And by those brethren it was
decided they would not confer the Priesthood until they had consulted the
Prophet Joseph, and subsequently they communicated with him. His decision,
as I understood was, they were not entitled to the Priesthood, nor yet to be
baptized without the consent of their masters.
In after years when I became acquainted with Joseph myself in the Far West,
about the year 1838, I received from Brother Joseph substantially the same
instructions. It was on my application to him, what should be done with the
Negro in the South, as I was preaching to them. He said I could baptize them
by consent of their masters, but not to confer the [204] Priesthood upon
them. ("The Church and the Negroid People," as quoted in Mormonism and the
Negro, Stewart, p. 11)
It has been reported that a Black man by the name of Elijah Abel was
ordained to the Priesthood by Zebedee Coltrin on March 3, 1836. John Taylor
thought that perhaps Elijah had received the Priesthood before the word of
the Lord was fully understood, and that it had been one of the mistakes of
early Church history. (See Minutes of the Council of Twelve, June 4, 1879.)
The Council Minutes of August 26, 1908, state that "this ordination was
declared null and void by the Prophet himself."
In 1879 Zebedee Coltrin related to a small group of Priesthood leaders that
Brother Joseph had told him in 1834 that "the Spirit of the Lord saith the
Negro has no right nor cannot hold the Priesthood." (Nuttall Journal 1:293)
The Salt Lake Tribune reported in an October 26, 1970, article, "The
Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from
Elijah Abel, and to revoke the ordinations."
So even though Elijah had only a very small percentage of Negro blood, he
was still not supposed to have the Priesthood. He did go on an LDS mission
in 1883, but there is no record of his performing any Priesthood ordinance
work.
Brigham Young made some very forceful statements concerning the status of
the Black race and the Priesthood:
We know there is a portion of inhabitants of the earth who dwell in Asia
that are Negroes, and said to be Jews. The blood of Judah has not only
mingled [205] almost with all nations, but also with the blood of Cain, and
--
<darrick...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114466710.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Art Bulla
God:
49 And I the Lord God have de苞reed that whoso苟ver mingleth his seed with
the seed of Cain shall receive of the curse thereof.
50 And those who consider themselves liberal in their feel虹ngs in regard
to these things, I the Lord God will destroy in that day not too far distant
which shall burn as an oven, for so did they think also before the flood,
saith the Lord, before their de貞truction.
51 For as in the days of Noah, so shall the com虹ng of the Son of Man be.
52 For did he not say, I am sent not but unto the Lost Sheep of the House
of Israel, but none of mine Apostles saith the Lord, were sent among Cain,
even Af訃ica, but Thomas, did he not go to the Gentiles in India, and did
not Paul go into Europe, among the Gentiles, saith the Lord, but it was that
I the Lord God did not send one into that which is known as Africa in that
day, saith the Lord.
53 For the seed of Cain shall not partake with the House of Israel, their
blessings saith the Lord God of Shem,and this from bef觔re the foundation of
the world.
54 For it was that rather than cast them out also they did agree, from
before the foundation of the world to be a race of servants, yea from before
the foundation of the world, and they also have been cursed with a skin of
black要ess that my people who are of the House of Israel should not desire
them to mix their seed with them, for these things have they not always
followed them who be apos負ates from the Holy Priesthood of the Son of God,
even Laman and also Lemuel, saith the Lord?
55 And it is for these things that the liberals have brought even a sore
and heavy curse upon the land, even in these things, saith the Lord that I
have decreed that ye shall be destroyed, O ye Gen負iles, unless it be that
ye turn away from thy false teachers, who teach that there is no harm in
this, that the mixing with the black race of Cain is a good thing, as before
the flood are these things taught and did I the Lord God not destroy their
mighty ones by the flood in that day?
56 Even so judge ye, for them who be with me, are they not also preparing
for battle against thee, O man, and O woman, who exal負eth thyself against
me, in these and also other things, too numer觔us to mention?
57For mine angels shall they not reap down thy earth, O man?
58 And Satan thinketh to abro茆ate the plan of salvation by mixing the
seed of Cain with all those who are of my people, and for this purpose did
he cause that the seed of Cain should be brought over, even them who be
known as negro, by the hands of wicked men unto this land which was choice
above all other lands which I the Lord God have re貞erved for the seed of
Ephraim and Manessah.
59 And the curse of Cain which is in force upon him shall not be removed by
me, the Lord thy God who it is that doth speak unto thee O man, until the
redemption of the earth, and then it is that he shall be resurrected to
receive of that which he did agree unto from before the foundation of the
world, saith the Lord God of Shem.
60 For I am the author and crea負or of the races, and Satan seeketh to mix
the Gentiles with the seed of Ham that my justice from before the
foun苓ation of the world be done away, and the in虐erit苔nce of mine
anointed sons be done, even away in these things.
61 And thus he laugheth with his chains even of the ignorance and
wickedness of man, and thereby bringeth him down, even unto destruction,
saith the Lord even in these things and this be苞ause of unbelief, saith the
Lord.
62 For my justice, shall it be done away because of the wick苟dness of men,
saith the Lord, even though the whole earth go after this exceeding great
error the knowledge of which was know by them of Old, even Melchizedec, and
Abraham, and Noah, for the conflict between the races, is it not from an
an苞ient date, saith the Lord?
63 I, the Lord God say unto thee, O man, that if it be that ye do not turn
away and repent of these things, ye shall be destroyed.
64 And the seed of Cain will I cause to be de貞troyed from off the land
thereof, even that which is known as North America, saith the Lord God of
Israel, my cho貞en from before the foundation of the world.
65 For the wicked among the Gentiles will I cause that they shall destroy
them and the seed of Cain, even the negro on this the American conti要ent
shall de貞troy the wicked red-necked among the Gentiles.
66 And all in that day who will not flee unto Zion which I will establish
upon this the American continent shall be destroyed in that day which is
even now upon you, saith the Lord God of Israel.
67 For I the Lord God did cause that Ephraim should be scattered among
those nations which are known as European, or that the seed of Ephraim
should be sprinkled among those nations that thereby they might be blessed
according to the promise that I the Lord God did make unto Abraham, my
chosen.
68 For I the Lord God did make the promise unto him that he should be the
Father of many na負ions and that his seed should sprinkle many nations and
that through his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed.
69 For I the Lord thy God O man, am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
and I am the God of the whole earth.
70 And I the Lord God did promise Abraham that those who are obedient unto
the Priesthood which I the Lord did confirm upon him, which is without
fa負her, and without mother, witho赴t beginning of days nor end of years,
that they should become the literal seed or heirs of the promises according
to the Oath and Covenant thereof, and that those who are the literal seed
should be cut off the true vine spoken of, that thereby the last may be
first and the first last, that I the Lord their God should prove unto all
nations that I the Lord am no re貞pecter of persons, but that all who work
righteou貞ness are accepted of me, even as was Abraham.
71 And I the Lord make this same covenant which is a New and an Everlasting
Covenant ac苞觔rding to the Priesthood, that all who hearken not and come
unto and be obedient unto my servant, Art Bulla, that I the Lord God may by
him work righteousness in the earth, for He is mine anointed, they, even
they shall be cut off from among the people even as when I the Lord spake it
through the mouth of my servant Moses.
72 And I the Lord have pre貞erved the literal seed of Abrah苔m, and I know
of them and will gather them out from among the nations into which I the
Lord their God did cause that they should be led, that the promise which I
did make unto the Fa負hers might be fulfilled.
73 And I the Lord God have caused that the Jews also should be preserved
and that even though that they should be scat負ered among the nations in the
which they have been as vaga苑onds without even a home that they should call
their own, that I should move upon the nations that they would become as
nurs虹ng fathers and mothers unto them and carry them upon their shoulders
that they should be gathered back unto the Land of their fa負hers, yea even
that land which I the Lord their God did give unto Abraham and his seed
forever.
74 For the Holy Ghost testifieth of me and beare負h record of my works
wherein are contained the true history of the earth upon which thou
standest. The Revelations of Jesus Christ, Section 7.
<darrick...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114466710.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Art Bulla
RetroProphet
>>
>
>Believe as you please. I have it from God that there was
>no exception made. You lied and said Joseph ordained Abel,
>but it was Zebedee Coltrin who did it contrary to the law.
>He reported "the worst feeling in my life" after he had laid
>hands on him to ordain him.
>
>Art Bulla
>
Wasn't me who said Joseph ordained Abel. I never lie.
It's irrelevent to my argument, anyway.
What matters is:
WHERE did Joseph Smith re-establish this doctrine?
This is your claim. You have failed to back it up.
>Yours is opinion and historical revisionism.
>I lived through this period (Kimball's Cananites) and I know
>what the doctrine was prior and now see the rationalizations
>which come from false teachers (liberal infidels) ensconced
>within the Mormon Church today.
We both agree what the doctrine was prior to Kimball, it's
the when that is in question and you have still not explained the
1847 Brigham Young quote. It isn't a matter of rationalization,
it's a matter of authenticity or misinterpretation, and you have
not made either case.
>I have it from the Holy Ghost what the truth is, and I
>don't care what you say about it. You are a fool, saith
>the Lord. So depart, we have nothing to talk about.
I still don't get why you shy away from acknowledging the
doctrine to be implemented by Brigham Young, through revelation,
within the context of a situation that he faced, but Smith
never did, namely that Black priesthood was incompatible
with Black/White inter-racial marriage. This interpretation
squares with all events and quotes, does no damage whatsoever
to the legitimacy of any doctrine, and does not require
ignoring Brigham Young's obvious acceptance of a Black Elder
in 1847.
DumberThanSnot
does the word "yet" mean JS knew it was going to be lifted? why... yes
it does... hmmm... it looks like JS knew Prez Kimball was going to
lift the curse. Looks like another falsehood of yours is exposed...