Are mormons still going to return to Jackson County, Missouri?

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Feb 10, 2003, 1:26:57 PM2/10/03
This was a big deal as recently as the 80s. We would all be returning
to Jackson County Missouri and that would be Zion. I haven't heard
this for years and years. Is it still taught as official doctrine?
What do the people in Missouri think of this idea? There goes the

Xan Du

Feb 10, 2003, 10:00:15 PM2/10/03

"Jack" <> wrote in message

> This was a big deal as recently as the 80s. We would all be returning
> to Jackson County Missouri and that would be Zion. I haven't heard
> this for years and years. Is it still taught as official doctrine?

No, there's no such thing as Official Doctrine(tm). Any previously
canonical statement downgrades itself to "personal opinion" about 50 years
after it has been utterly and overwhelmingly been proven false.

> What do the people in Missouri think of this idea?

I dunno. Pick 50 Missourians and force them to live in Orem for a year.
Then ask them.

> There goes the neighborhood.

I watched Dubya having a temper-tantrum on national television last night.
The neighborhood has been gone for a while now.



Feb 11, 2003, 2:33:33 AM2/11/03
Jack wrote:
> This was a big deal as recently as the 80s. We would all be returning
> to Jackson County Missouri and that would be Zion.

There are traditional RLDS members who insist that some of them never
left Missouri and are there to this day. They're quite right of course.


Feb 11, 2003, 12:03:05 PM2/11/03
Jack <> wrote in message news:<>...

Well, it was only relative recently that the Extermination Decree was
repealed by the governor. So it is safe for Mormons to live there, I


Feb 11, 2003, 12:18:45 PM2/11/03

"charles" <> wrote in message

Ah, there's a safe fall back, the old Boggs order. Modern LDS apologists
would have the world beleive the early "saints" were living examples of
getting along, loving their neighbor, at one with their woodland paradise.
In fact, the pre-pioneer Mormons had a rather loose interpretation of other
people's property rights, and backed it up with a large active-duty army.

Let's read the actual text of the so-called "extermination order", shall we?

Head Quarters of the Militia

City of Jefferson

October 27, 1838
Since the order of the morning to you, directing you to cause four
hundred mounted men to be raised within your division, I have received by
Amos Rees, Esq., and Wiley C. Williams, Esq., one of my aids, information
of the most appalling character, which changes the whole face of things,
and places the Mormons in the attitude of open and avowed defiance of the
laws, and of having made open war upon the people of this state. Your
orders are, therefore, to hasten your operations and endeavor to reach
Richmond, in Ray county, with all possible speed. The Mormons must be
treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if
necessary for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description.
If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so, to any extent
you may think necessary. I have just issued orders to Major-General
Wallock, of Marion county, to raise five hundred men, and to march them to
the northern part of Daviess and there to unite with General Doniphan, of
Clay, who has been ordered with five hundred men to proceed to the same
point for the purpose of intercepting the retreat of the Mormons to the
north. They have been directed to communicate with you by express; and you
can also communicate with them if you find it necessary. Instead,
therefore, of proceeding as at first directed, to reinstate the citizens of
Daviess in their homes, you will proceed immediately to Richmond, and there
operate against the Mormons. Brigadier-General Parks, of Ray, has been
ordered to have four hundred men of his brigade in readiness to join you at
Richmond. The whole force will be placed under your command.

I am very respectfully

Yr Obt Svt

Lilburn W. Boggs

Com in Chief
Gen John B. Clark
Fayette, Ho Co.

The Mormons made "open and defiant war upon the people of" Missouri. Hardly
the nature of innocent by-standers, is it?

Bogg's order was not pre-emptive, nor punative. It does not say
exterminated, it says "exterminated OR DRIVEN FROM THE STATE, if neccessary
FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD"... all this to "reinstate the citizens of Daviess
(county) in their homes", which the Mormons had usurped.

The Early Mormons were no different from today's Al-Qaida.


Lee Paulson

Feb 11, 2003, 1:15:07 PM2/11/03

"ForWhatItsWorth" <> wrote in message
I never saw that before. Goes to show how educational arm is.
Lee, The James & GW


Feb 11, 2003, 1:27:21 PM2/11/03

In the interests of that education, then, would someone please provide
documentary evidence that Boggs was telling the truth?


Feb 11, 2003, 2:47:08 PM2/11/03
>>>The Mormons made "open and defiant war upon the people of" Missouri.
>> Hardly
>>>the nature of innocent by-standers, is it?
>>>Bogg's order was not pre-emptive, nor punative. It does not say
>>>exterminated, it says "exterminated OR DRIVEN FROM THE STATE, if
>> neccessary
>>>FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD"... all this to "reinstate the citizens of Daviess
>>>(county) in their homes", which the Mormons had usurped.
>>>The Early Mormons were no different from today's Al-Qaida.
>> I never saw that before. Goes to show how educational arm is.
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Lee, The James & GW

>In the interests of that education, then, would someone please provide
>documentary evidence that Boggs was telling the truth?

I have provided the documentation for what the Mormons were doing that caused
Boggs to issue his 'Extermination Order' probably two dozen times over the last
four years on ARM. One more time:

Gordon B. Hinckley offered the following
comments in the
April 1984 General Conference:

"According to the account given by George A. Smith, while the Saints were in
Far West, Missouri, 'the wife of Thomas B. Marsh, who was then President of the
Twelve Apostles, and Sister Harris concluded they would exchange milk, in order
to make a little larger cheese than they otherwise could. To be sure to have
justice done, it was agreed that they should not save the strippings (to
themselves), but that the milk and strippings should go all together.....Mrs.
Harris, it appeared, was faithful to the agreement and carried to Mrs. Marsh
the milk and strippings, but Mrs. Marsh, wishing to make some extra good
cheese, saved a pint of strippings from each cow and sent Mrs. Harris the milk
without the strippings. A quarrel arose, and the matter was referred to the
home teachers. They found Mrs. Marsh guilty of failure to keep her agreement.
She and her husband were upset and, 'an appeal was taken from the teacher to
the bishop, and a regular church trial was held. President Marsh did not
consider that the bishop had done him and his lady justice for they (that is,
the bishop's court) decided that the strippings were wrongfully saved, and that
the woman had violated her covenant.
'Marsh immediately took an appeal to the High Council, who investigated the
question with much patience, and,' says George A. Smith, .....'Marsh.....made
a desperate defence, but the High Council finally confirmed the bishop's
decision.....This little affair,' Brother Smith continues, 'kicked up a
considerable breeze, and Thomas B. Marsh then declared that he would sustain
the character of his wife even if he had to go to hell for it. The then
President of the Twelve Apostles, the man who should have been the first to do
justice and cause reparation to be made for wrong.....went before a magistrate
and swore that the 'Mormons' were hostile towards the state of MIssouri. That
affidavit brought from the government of Missouri an exterminating order, which
drove some 15,000 Saints from their homes and habitations.....
What a very small and trivial thing--a little cream over which two women
quarreled. But it led to, or at least was a factor in, Governor Boggs' cruel
exterminating order which drove the Saints from the state of Missouri."
("Ensign" Magazine, May 1984, p. 83.)

Note how Hinckley asserts that the alleged "milk strippings" incident was a
major factor in Marsh's defection, and the resulting
Extermination Order. But were Hinckley's remarks (via George A. Smith)
anywhere close to the truth? Let's compare Hinckley's assertions with the
documented facts of history:

A "revelation" which Smith produced and published in his 1833 "Book of
Commandments," read as follows:

"For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets
shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate the riches of the Gentiles, unto my
people which are of the house of Israel." (BOC 44:32.)

In Smith's 1835 revision of the BOC, re-titled the "Doctrine and Covenants,"
Smith altered this verse to read:

"for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the
Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel." (D&C

David Whitmer explained why the original version of this "revelation" had
enraged Missourians against the Mormon immigrants in 1833:

"In the spring of 1832, in Hiram, Ohio, Brothers Joseph and Sidney, and others,
concluded that the revelations should be printed in a book. A few of the
brethren -- including myself --objected to it seriously. We told them that if
the revelations were
published, the world would get the books, and it would not do; that it was not
the will of the Lord that the revelations should be published. But Brothers
Joseph and Sidney would not listen to us, and said they were going to send them
to Independence to be published. I objected to it and withstood Brothers Joseph
and Sidney to the face. Brother Joseph said as follows: 'Any man who objects to
having these revelations published, shall have his part taken out of the Tree
of Life and out of the Holy City.' The Spirit of God came upon me and I
prophesied to them in the name of the Lord: 'That if they sent those
revelations to Independence to be published in a book, the people would come
upon them and tear down the printing press, and the church would be driven out
of Jackson county.' Brothers Joseph and Sidney laughed at me. Early in the
spring of 1833, at Independence, Mo., the revelations were printed in the Book
of Commandments. Many of the books were finished and distributed among the
members of the church, and through some of the unwise brethren, the world got
hold of some of them. From that time the ill-feeling toward us began to
increase; and in the summer of 1833 the mob came upon us, tore down the
printing press, and drove the church out of Jackson county." ( From "An Address
All Believers in Christ")

It's obvious that Smith altered the verse which called for the "consecration of
the riches of the Gentiles unto the house of Israel" because the publication of
such a policy had gotten the Mormons booted out of Jackson County in 1834.
Nonetheless, he and Rigdon secretly continued their advocacy of "consecrating"
the personal property of non-Mormons, as well as those of Mormon dissenters,
into his "kingdom," and that was the ultimate cause of the Mormons' final
expulsion from Missouri in 1838.

To today's Mormons, "consecration" means giving of their money or goods to the
church; however, in 1838, it had a more sinister meaning. Upon the failure of
their Kirtland Bank and "United Order" in January of 1838,
Smith and Rigdon fled to Missouri and again tried to institute an economic
commune. The Missouri Mormons, who had been expelled from Jackson County in
1834, were living in relative (albeit temporary) peace in Clay County, buying
land and starting farms. But the arrival of Smith and Rigdon in the spring of
1838 brought an influx of thousands more Mormons from Kirtland as well,
spilling them over into "Gentile" areas, causing new tensions. Mormon
population increased from 1,200 to 15,000 in just a few months. Having been
stung by the Kirtland failure, Smith and Rigdon implemented new policies that
they hoped would make the new commune succeed. The policy mandated that all
Mormons sign their lands over to the church, and then the church
would lease the land back to them as "stewardships." The Mormons who had
bought and developed
their lands and farms balked at the idea---among them being Cowdery, the
Whitmers, Phelps, Lyman Johnson, etc. They correctly perceived that the new
"consecration" policy was nothing more than Smith and Rigdon's latest scheme to
fleece the flock. Their refusal to sign lands over to the church prompted
Rigdon's "Salt Sermon" (which was heartily endorsed by Smith), and Rigdon's
resulting letter informing the dissenters that they must "depart before a more
fatal calamity" befell them. While the dissenters had gone to procure legal
aid to prevent Smith and Rigdon from taking their land (or their lives), the
"Danites" invaded and plundered their homes and property. So, for those
Mormons, "consecration" meant having their goods taken away by force, upon the
order of church leaders.

"A proposition was made and supported by some as being the best policy to kill
these men that they would not be capable of injuring the church. All their
measures were strenuously opposed by John Corrill and T. B. Marsh one of the
twelve apostles of the church and in consequence nothing could be effected
until the matter was taken up publicly BY THE PRESIDENCY the following (June
17th) in a large congregation..." ("Reed Peck Manuscript")

Thus, according to Peck, Marsh was already opposing Smith's and Rigdon's
heinous policies as early as June 17----four months before Marsh swore his
affidavit. That fact alone negates the "milk strippings" story.

As many witnesses (including Thomas B. Marsh) testified in court, Smith's
intention was to "take this State,...the United States and ultimately the whole
world" for his theocratic empire. The swelling Mormon population disturbed
the non-Mormons, who had heard that the "Gentiles" were to be evicted and the
land become the Mormons' "New Jerusalem." One Missourian, William Peniston,
remarked in August that the Mormons "are a set of horse thieves, liars, and
counterfeiters. They'll swear a false oath on any occasion to save another property is safe in Daviess County if they continue to pour into
this area." Tensions soon erupted into violence, with beatings, lootings and
burnings being committed on both sides. By October, believing that they had
enough manpower to "take the state," Smith and Rigdon then sent their "Danite"
forces to begin "consecrating"
from the "Gentiles" as well as the dissident "Saints," with the loot going to
support their war effort. Church historian John Whitmer reported that the
Mormon leaders claimed the stealing was justified because they were the "chosen

"After they had driven us and our families, they commenced a difficulty in
Daviess County, adjoining this county, in which they began to rob and burn
houses, etc. etc., took honey which they, (the Mormons) call sweet oil, and
hogs which they call bear, and cattle which they called buffalo. Thus they
would justify themselves by saying, "We are the people of God, and all things
are God's; therefore, they are ours." (John Whitmer's "History of the Church")

John Whitmer's remarks revealed Smith's and Rigdon's true attitude: they viewed
their organization as the literal "House of Israel," and "the Kingdom of God on
Earth"; they taught the imminent return and millenial reign of Christ, wherein
all the "enemies" of the "true church" would be defeated. Since, in the
"millenium," all things on earth would be theirs, they haughtily taught their
subordinates to appropriate the property of the "Gentiles."

Mormon historian Leland Gentry admits to Mormon thefts: "The Danites were
taught to take from the Gentiles and consecrate to the Church. Nearly every
person who testified at the trial against the Mormon leaders made mention of
this fact. John Clemenson stated that 'it was frequently observed among the
troops at Diahman that the time had come when the riches of the Gentiles should
be consecrated to the Saints.' Jeremiah Myers testified that 'the consecrated
property...was dealt out to those in need' by Bishop Vinson Knight." (A
History of the Latter-Day Saints in Northern Missouri, p. 385-387.)

"Danites struck at Gallatin and two other towns, Millport and Grinding Fork.
The three onslaughts occurred simultaneously and had a crushing impact on the
Missourians who were unaccustomed to Mormon resistance. When Captains Lyman
Wight, David W. Patten, and Seymour Brunson rode into Far West at the head of
their companies, the sight of wagonloads of plunder was offensive to a number
of less aggressively inclined Saints. That night they gathered their families
together and abandoned the settlement. Among the defectors were two of
Joseph's most trusted followers, Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde, both members
of the Council of Twelve Apostles. The two men fled to nearby Richmond and
blurted out everything they knew." ("Orrin Porter Rockwell," Harold Schindler,
p. 54.)

"The Mormons were two hundred and fifty men by the time they reached Daviess
County...The bulk of the forces went out in search of the gentile opposition.
They marched through three settlements, including Gallatin, repaying the
Missourians in kind, looting and firing stores, homes, and barns, before their
anger spent itself.....When they returned with their loot, many of their own
people were appalled and frightened. Thomas B. Marsh, Brigham Young's superior
as President of the Twelve, let it be known that he did not approve such
retaliation, and he left the church." ("Kingdom of the Saints", Ray B. West, p.

"There was much mysterious conversation in camps, as to plundering, and
house-burning; so much so, that I had my own notions about it; and, on one
occasion, I spoke to Mr. Smith, Jr., in the house, and told him that this
course of burning houses and plundering, by the Mormon troops, would ruin us;
that it could not be kept hid, and would bring the force of the state upon us;
that houses would be searched, and stolen property found. Smith replied to me,
in a pretty rough manner, to keep still; that I should say nothing about it;
that it would discourage the men...I saw a great deal of plunder and bee-steads
brought into camp; and I saw many persons, for many days, taking the honey out
of them; I understood this property and plunder were placed into the hands of
the bishop at Diahmon....The general teachings of the presidency were, that the
kingdom they were setting up was a temporal kingdom...that the time had come
when this kingdom was to be set up by
forcible means, if necessary. It was taught, that the time had come when the
riches of the Gentiles were to be consecrated to the true Israel."
(Testimony of George M. Hinkle, "Senate Document 189".)

"Smith replied, the time had come when he should resist all law...I heard J.
Smith remark, there was a store at Gallatin, and a grocery at Millport; and in
the morning after the conversation between Smith and Wight about resisting the
law, a plan of operations was agreed on, which was: that Captain Fearnaught,
who was present, should take a company of 100 men, or more, and go to Gallatin,
and take it that day; to take the goods out of Gallatin, bring them to Diahmon,
and burn the store...On the same day, in the evening, I saw both these
companies return; the foot company had some plunder..." (Testimony of WW
Phelps, "Senate Document 189").

From Marsh's own sworn legal affidavit of October 24, 1838:

"At the request of citizens of Ray County, I make the following
statement...Joseph Smith, the prophet, had preached a sermon in which he said
that all the Mormons who refused to take up arms, if necessary, in the
difficulties with the citizens, should be shot or otherwise put to death; and
as I was there with my family, I thought it most prudent to go and did go with
my wagon as the driver. We marched to Adam-ondi-Ahman and found no troops or
mob in Davies County....a company of about eighty Mormons, commanded by a man
fictitiously named Captain Fearnaught [apostle and Danite David Patten],
marched to Gallatin...I afterwards learned from the Mormons that they had burnt
Gallatin and that it was done by the aforesaid company
that marched there. The Mormons informed me that they had hauled away all the
goods from the store in Gallatin and deposited them at the Bishop's storehouse
at Diahmon. On the same day, [apostle and Danite] Lyman Wight marched about
eighty horsemen for Millport...The same evening a number of footmen came up
from the direction of Millport laden with property which I was informed
consisted of beds, clocks, and other household furniture...During the same
time, a company called the Fur Company were sent out to bring in fat hogs and
cattle, calling the hogs 'bears', and the cattle 'buffaloes.' They have among
them a company consisting of all that are considered true Mormons, called the
Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of the church in all
things that they say or do, whether right or wrong.....The plan of said Smith,
the prophet, is to take this State, and he professed to his people to intend
taking the United States, and ultimately the whole world. This is the belief
of the church, and my own opinion of the prophet's plans and intentions.....The
prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that
Smith's prophecies are superior to the law of the land. I have heard the
prophet say that he should yet tread down his enemies and walk over their dead
bodies; that if he was not let alone he would be a second Mahomet to this
generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky
Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean....."

I don't find anything about "milk strippings" in Marsh's, or any other
eyewitnesses' testimony of those events; and I have failed to find even one
mention of the alleged "milk strippings" incident in any history on the subject
by any reputable scholar. To the contrary, they all concur that the reason the
Mormons were booted out of Missouri was because of Smith and Rigdon's haughty,
belligerent attitudes and teachings; their calls for violence, their
"revelations" that "justified" their followers stealing from their neighbors;
and their boasts that their organization had a "divine right" to take the state
of Missouri for themselves, by any means necessary, including force.

Late LDS author Harold Schindler recounted the series of events that caused
Governor Boggs to issue his "Extermination Order," which came the day after the
skirmish between Missouri militiamen and Mormon "Danites" at Crooked River:

"Twenty-four hours after the Crooked River fight, Boggs, armed with the
affidavits of Marsh and Hyde plus complaints from frightened settlers
describing a wholesale Mormon rebellion, ordered two thousand militiamen from
five divisions into the field...Then Boggs received a message confirming an
earlier report of Bogart's defeat but compounding the rumors of a
massacre...this report prompted Boggs to issue his infamous 'Extermination
Order' of October 27 to General John B. Clark. In effect, the order challenged
Sidney Rigdon's Fourth of July address in which he defied the Gentiles and
threatened a 'war of extermination.' It was more than coincidence that Boggs
chose that particular word in his instruction to General Clark."
("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.

Thus we see that the major incident which spurred Boggs to issue his
"Extermination Order" was the Crooked River skirmish, wherein several men on
both sides were killed. That event made Boggs realize that the Mormons would
not peacefully cohabit the state with non-Mormons, and since many Mormons had
taken a secret oath to obey Smith's every order, even those which called on
them to commit crimes, Boggs was forced to evict all of the Mormons from the

So, in view of the documented facts, can anyone honestly believe that Thomas B.
Marsh's "real gripe" was a fight between two women over "milk strippings"?
And, was Gordon B. Hinckley being "honest with his fellow man" by using George
A. Smith's "faith-promoting" version of events, rather than objectively
relating the numerous testimonies of first-hand eyewitnesses and participants?
Of course he wasn't. Hinckley, as well as most other LDS leaders and
apologists, are not interested in relating the actual history of Mormonism;
their agenda is to spin "faith-promoting" tales that attempt to "teach a
lesson," while simultaneously obfuscating the actual facts. The average
rank-and-file Mormon, upon learning that the first president of the Q12 had
"apostasized," would naturally inquire as to the reasons for his "apostasy";
so the "milk strippings" story is propagated to conceal the actual reasons, and
provide an "object lesson" for Mormons in Sunday School classes.

Mormon leaders and apologists have carefully cultivated the storyline that the
difficulties of 19th-century Mormons were all the result of simple "persecution
for their religious beliefs." The purpose of that propaganda is to engender
sympathy for 19th-century Mormons, and to paint a picture of them as being
heroic, peace-loving pacifists whom non-Mormons hated just because they were
Mormons. IOW, the purpose of such propaganda is to change history and blame
others for all of the Mormons' difficulties.

But it is obvious that that perceived "persecution" was the result of the
anti-social and criminal teachings and practices of leaders like Joseph Smith
and Sidney Rigdon.

Randy J.


Feb 11, 2003, 3:03:18 PM2/11/03

"fmhlaw" <> wrote in message

Perhaps the Battle of Crooked River, which took place before Bogg's order.
The mormon militia fought, and won, a pitched battle against Missouri state

Perhaps the speeches by Sidney Rigdon, to include the talk given July 4th,
1838, where he said:
"And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and
them a war of **extermination**; for we will follow them until the last drop
of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to **exterminate** us, for
we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families,
and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. "

Perhaps D&C 52, published June 7, 1831. Verse 42:
"And thus, even as I have said, if ye are faithful ye shall assemble
yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri, which is the land
of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies."

To be sure, stupidity ruled the day on *both* sides of the aisle. Missouri
finally recognized that when the state officially apologized. Sadly, the
Church is in the position where no apology can ever be made, as that would
destroy the basis of their persecution complex.




Feb 11, 2003, 5:59:01 PM2/11/03
>From: (charles)
>Date: 2/11/2003 12:03 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <>

The only Mormons for whom it was unsafe to live in Missouri were those who
obeyed Joseph Smith's and Sidney Rigdon's orders to steal and plunder from
non-Mormons in 1838.

The main body of Mormons were forced to leave the state as a result of those
depradations, because Governor Boggs had no way of distinguishing between
begign, peaceful Mormons, and those who would unquestioningly obey Smith's and
Rigdon's orders to commit crimes.

After the main body of Mormons was escorted from the state, only a few Mormon
leaders who headed the insurrection were jailed and charged with murder and

Hundreds of Mormons who did not go along with Smith's and Rigdon's criminal
policies remained in Missouri, and they and their descendants have continued to
live in Missouri since 1838, in perfect safety.

In addition, thousands of other Utah-based Mormons have, and do, live in
Missouri over the years. The Utah LDS Church has owned properties in western
Missouri, and has had visitors' centers in Independence and Liberty Jail for

Thus, Charles Dowis' comments about it "now" being safe for Mormons to live in
Missouri since "the Extermination Decree was repealed by the governor" is just
more of his typical ignorant blather.

Randy J.

Duwayne Anderson

Feb 12, 2003, 5:23:19 AM2/12/03
to (charles) wrote in message news:<>...

The question is, have Mormons repealed their threats of violence
against non-Mormons? Here is an interesting cut from the article at

The 'extermination order' is perhaps the most famous document that
Mormons use to show that they are persecuted. Few know the
circumstances surrounding its origin. About three months before it was
issued, Sidney Rigdon delivered his famous 4th of July speech of 1838
which was partially reproduced in the church's Comprehensive History
of the Church, vol. 1, page 441 as follows:

And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us

and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the

last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to

exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses

and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly

Joseph Smith approved of the speech and it was subsequently printed in
The Far West, a weekly newspaper, and the church's own Elders'
Journal. Joseph Smith said in History of the Church, "The oration was
delivered by President Rigdon, at the close of which was a shout of
Hosanna, and a song, composed for the occasion by Levi W. Hancock, was
sung by Solomon Hancock.

So, Charles, has the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS,
or Mormon) ever repealed Elder Rigdon's threat to "utterly destroy"
the Church's enemies, including their *FAMILIES?*

As far as I know, the LDS Church never repealed their OWN
extermination threat. But perhaps they have. Do you know?

Duwayne Anderson

American Quarter Horse: The ultimate all-terrain vehicle.

Fool Speck

Feb 12, 2003, 10:02:58 AM2/12/03
to (charles) wrote in message news:<>...

The Extermination Order was repealed in 1976. It is also of interest
to note that at that time "exterminate" had a different connotation
than it does now. Taken from the 1838 Webster Dictionary:

EXTERM'INATE, v.t. [L. extermino; ex and terminus, limit.]

Literally, to drive from within the limits or borders. Hence,

1. To destroy utterly; to drive away; to extirpate; as, to exterminate
a colony, a tribe or a nation; to exterminate inhabitants or a race of

2. To eradicate; to root out; to extirpate; as, to exterminate error,
heresy, infidelity or atheism; to exterminate vice.

3. To root out, as plants; to extirpate; as, to exterminate weeds.

4. In algebra, to take away; as, to exterminate surds or unknown

Currently, the definition of "exterminate" means simple to kill or
destroy. Then the definition was more oriented to displacement with
destruction as a possible consequence.

Steve Lowther

Fool Speck

Feb 12, 2003, 11:12:28 AM2/12/03
"ForWhatItsWorth" <> wrote in message news:<b2bbem$1a2plv$>...

> The Early Mormons were no different from today's Al-Qaida.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying that. Al-Qaida are a
trained guerilla group. The Taliban may be a closer comparison, but
even that comparison is hyperbolic. However, fanaticism certainly was

Bishop John D Lee wrote:

"I admit up to this time I firmly believed what the Prophet and
his apostles had said on that subject. I had considered that I was
bullet proof, that no Gentile ball could ever harm me, or any Saint,
and I had believed that a Danite could not be killed by Gentile hands.
I thought that one Danite could chase a thousand Gentiles, and two
could put ten thousand to flight.... I had considered that all the
battles between Danites and Gentiles would end like the election fight
at Gallatin, and that the only ones to be injured would be the
Gentiles. We had been promised and taught by the Prophet and his
priesthood that henceforth God would fight our battles, and I looked
as a consequence for a bloodless victory on the side of the Lord, and
that nothing but disobedience to the teachings of the priesthood could
render a Mormon subject to injury from Gentile forces. I believed as
our leaders taught us, that all our sufferings and persecutions, were
brought upon us by the all-wise God of Heaven, as chastisement to
bring us together in unity of faith and strict obedience to the
requirements of the Gospel; and the feeling was general, that all our
sufferings were the result of individual sin, and not the fault of our
leaders and spiritual guides. We, as members of the Church, had no
right to question any act of our superiors; to do so wounded the
Spirit of God, and lead to our own loss and confusion."

The point has been made that the Missouri Mormons certainly did their
share of plundering and looting. According to Lee, Joseph Smith did
not encourage the petty thievery, but reserved the right to take the
whole of it as spoils of war:

"In justice to Joseph Smith I cannot say that I ever heard him
teach or even encourage men to pilfer or steal little things. He told
the people that in an open war the contending factions were justified
in taking spoil to subsist upon during the war; but he did despise
this little, petty stealing. He told the people to wait until the
proper time came to take back their rights, 'Then,' said he, 'take the
whole State of Missouri like men.'"

Lee did acknowledge there were good men among his enemies:

"When the people at Adam-on-Diamond had signed the treaty, and
complied with the stipulations, the committee of twelve commenced
their duties. When it came my turn to take the property necessary to
take me out of the State, I was told to fit myself out comfortably. I
told them that I had a wife and one child, that I had two good wagons,
one a heavy one-horse wagon, with fills, and that I had a large mare
that was equal to a common span, that the mare and wagon would do me,
that I wanted some bedding and our clothing, and some other traps of
little value; that I had a good milk cow that I wished to give to a
friend who had lost all his cattle, and his wife had died a short time
before, leaving a little babe that must have milk. I told them they
could take the rest of my property and do with it as they did with
that of the brethren. I was worth then in property, at a fair
valuation, $4,000. The officers were astonished at me and said they
did not wish to oppress a man who acted fairly. They told me to take
my large wagon and two of my best horses, and all the outfit that I
wanted. I thanked them for their kindness. I was permitted to give the
cow to my friend and I had the privilege of taking such articles as I
wished. I fitted up with just what would take me to Illinois, and left
the remainder as a spoil for the enemies of the Church."

Lee also despised the thievery of the Mormons:

"I had long desired to associate myself with an honest people,
whose motto should be promptness, punctuality, honesty - a people that
feared God and worked righteousness, dealt justly, loved mercy and
walked uprightly with each other before their God; where my property,
my life, my reputation would be held sacred by them all, the same as
if it was their own. For the society of such a people I was willing to
forsake all earthly substance, and even to have my name cast out as
evil and trodden under foot, if I could be found worthy to serve with
such a blessed people, and thus earn the boon of eternal life. But I
had found another class of people; they fell far short of the
requisites that I had believed they possessed. When I found fault with
having such characters in the Church I was told of the parable where
Christ likened the kingdom of heaven to a net that was cast into the
sea, which, when drawn to the shore, had in it all kinds of fish; the
servants picked out the good and kept them for the Master's use, and
the bad were cast back into the sea; that we could not expect anything
different with the kingdom on earth; that it was a trick of the evil
one to cause such persons to rush into the gospel net to harass and
torment the Saints with their evil doings, but the time would come
when forbearance would cease to be a virtue, then all those who worked
iniquity or gave offense in the kingdom would be cut off and
destroyed; that we must bear with them until the time came to correct
the evil."

To those unfamiliar with Bishop John D Lee, it should be noted that he
is the sole individual executed for his part in the Mountain Meadows
Massacre. He maintained that it was a horror but as a religious duty
he forced himself to participate under orders from his leaders.

Steve Lowther

Clovis Lark

Feb 12, 2003, 1:55:46 PM2/12/03

Leave the dictionary entries out. The Boggs' order, stemming directly
from the Rigdon order and its subsequent mormon violence, resulted in the
exodus of Rigdon and Smith's followers. It left any mormons remaining in
MO untouched.

> Steve Lowther


Feb 12, 2003, 3:16:35 PM2/12/03

"Clovis Lark" <> wrote in message

And of the various varieties that didn't go to Utah, many thousands stayed.
And were not exterminated at all. Kinda takes the teeth out of the
extermination order...


> > Steve Lowther

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