LDS Articles Of Faith == What we believe
Web
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and
in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for
Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be
saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, Baptism by
immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift
of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the
laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and
administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church,
namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions,
healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated
correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we
believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining
to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of
the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the
American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and,
that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the
dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let
them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and
magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in
doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of
Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things,
and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous,
lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
JOSEPH SMITH
Web
The DataRat
"THE ARTICLES OF FAITH OF
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST
OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS"
This is the sanitized, Public Relation
version of Mormonism.
What the Mormons won't tell you is:
They believe in multiple gods ..they're
polytheists.
They believe God was once a man,
and that men can become gods.
They deny the Trinity, and believe that
Father, Son, and Spirit are three separate
and individual gods.
They believe God the Father had physical
sexual intercourse with Mary.
They believe that Christ is the "spirit
brother" of Lucifer.
Mormonism ISN'T
Christian, It's Pagan
Polytheism !
The DataRat
John Manning
Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......
John Manning
InnovatorsDilema
"The DataRat" <data...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A76B5F2...@home.com...
Nice Original Post. Is Rat a compubot?
The DataRat
"Nice Original Post"
Just as original as the one
your mormon keeps posting
to the Christian newsgroups !
The DataRat
briquelesflic
"InnovatorsDilema" <innovato...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:957ci6$2ffj$1...@news.aros.net...
Nope... just another christian fool.....
>
>
briquelesflic
>
>
> "Nice Original Post"
>
>
>
> Just as original as the one
> your mormon keeps posting
> to the Christian newsgroups !
Well, it beats having them knocking on your door...... shame though, 'cos we
need another virgin for our next black mass........
>
>
>
> The DataRat
>
>
>
>
MyTwoCents
usual.
We do not believe that God had intercourse with Mary. That is your
perverted brain thinking that one up ....
...and I got news for ya bud .... Christianity itself is at least 50%
Paganism in it's symbols of crosses etc .... those are all Pagan ideas and
symbols used by the Christians ...
Me thinks the Rat needs some extra school'in on Christianity before he spews
incorrect doctrines of our church.....
"The DataRat" <data...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A76B5F2...@home.com...
MyTwoCents
"The DataRat" <data...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A7735A7...@home.com...
C&C
> Well Rat you are close on some things but very wrong on most things as
> usual.
>
> We do not believe that God had intercourse with Mary. That is your
> perverted brain thinking that one up ....
>
> ...and I got news for ya bud .... Christianity itself is at least 50%
> Paganism in it's symbols of crosses etc .... those are all Pagan ideas and
> symbols used by the Christians ...
>
> Me thinks the Rat needs some extra school'in on Christianity before he
spews
> incorrect doctrines of our church.....
Hmm ... I've been gone for awhile, but this letter sounds suspiciously like
the doings of Life's Like That/Light of Christ. Has the name changed yet
again?
And if so, how are things?
Chuck
Gadianton
Bingo! You win the prize.
CTR
> Nice Original Post. Is Rat a compubot?
A compubot has more brains than the Rodent.
C&C
news:3A775E...@combos.com...
I thought so. What'd I win?
Chuck
CharlesSWaters
Yes it has changed again. I expect we are shortly in for another name
change.
--
Charles
"Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be
asked out of their Church. I want the liberty of thinking
and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be
trammelled."
- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.340
"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no
place." - Mahatma Gandhi
Dale Little
> "MyTwoCents" <noo...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
>
<snippage>
> > Me thinks the Rat needs some extra school'in on Christianity before he
> spews
> > incorrect doctrines of our church.....
>
> Hmm ... I've been gone for awhile, but this letter sounds suspiciously like
> the doings of Life's Like That/Light of Christ. Has the name changed yet
> again?
Could be...? Maybe the "person" behind the name is slowly learning from
participation in here ;)
>
> And if so, how are things?
Nothing new, Chuck. Welcome back.
Dale
C&C
snip
> > And if so, how are things?
>
> Nothing new, Chuck. Welcome back.
Thanks, Dale. Yep, nothing new, but a lot more of the old. The DataRats
and Mannings seem to have gone forth and multiplied.
Chuck
C&C
snip
> Yes it has changed again. I expect we are shortly in for another name
> change.
Charles! What have you been up to?
Nice Gandhi sig, BTW.
Chuck
Jeni Sorenson
one liners and your answers to get people to think. I'm glad your back.
Jeni~
C&C
> Yes, that's her. HEY where have you been? We missed you. =( I've missed
your
> one liners and your answers to get people to think. I'm glad your back.
Hey, Jeni! I got my medical license in November and I've been busy doing
some after-hours moonlighting in addition to my residency training. Things
may calm down some in the near future, so I decided to hop back on. Dale's
right ... not much has changed here. It's like a little mini-ARM instead of
a fellowship group.
Chuck
Gadianton
Why, the satisfaction of knowing how sharp your intuition is!
MyTwoCents
lol ... Bout time man sheesh!! We've missed you ...right Jeni? No one is
playing with us :( I even brought my ball !
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:fLId6.4063$_o1.4...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
"Gadianton" <sec...@sauces.com> wrote in message
news:3A77DE...@sauces.com...
MyTwoCents
(besides Jeni) this place is pretty much apostate. Kinda sad ...
Chuck give us some wisdom please , we're DYING for wisdom lol
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:GyPd6.2908$5g6.6...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
posting scripture for us.
"MyTwoCents" <noo...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
news:EjWd6.3823$wb7....@news1.mts.net...
Jeni Sorenson
Congratulations on getting your medical license. Yes, it's getting like a.r.m.
but there's a couple of people I've noticed have been gone for a while. Jong Kim
and Father of Peace. Let's hope they don't come back unless of course they
decide to fellowship instead of argue.
Jeni~
Jeni Sorenson
youuuuu Chuckers.
C&C
> I know ..sad huh? Except for the Dave Naas's, Tims and Dales of this
group
> (besides Jeni) this place is pretty much apostate. Kinda sad ...
>
> Chuck give us some wisdom please , we're DYING for wisdom lol
I have no wisdom to impart ... my job is merely to annoy.
Chuck
C&C
> Hey,
> Congratulations on getting your medical license. Yes, it's getting like
a.r.m.
> but there's a couple of people I've noticed have been gone for a while.
Jong Kim
> and Father of Peace. Let's hope they don't come back unless of course they
> decide to fellowship instead of argue.
No Jong Kim? Who supplies the crazy?
Chuck
C&C
> CHHUUUUCKKKKSTTTERRRRR !!! TTIIZZZZ MEEEEE !!! Have you come to save me
?
> lol ... Bout time man sheesh!! We've missed you ...right Jeni? No one is
> playing with us :( I even brought my ball !
I thought it was you. You have shall we say a rather distinctive style.
As for saving: nay, thou didst apostasize from the Church of Chuck many
moons ago. Unless you repent and come back, there is no saving you.
In the meantime, play ball.
Chuck
C&C
> Hey, we now have a third person to play ball with.....lol Yes, we've
missed
> youuuuu Chuckers.
I missed you ladies too. Are you still giving the men of the group a hard
time, or have you gotten soft?
Chuck
CharlesSWaters
C&C wrote:
>
> "CharlesSWaters" <"cswaters"@NOS...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> snip
> > Yes it has changed again. I expect we are shortly in for another name
> > change.
>
> Charles! What have you been up to?
Sameo, sameo.
Jeni Sorenson
yes I've gone a little soft. I let TwoCents tell them off.......lol
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:2M3e6.2398$yn6.4...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
my neck ...are you experienced in removing anti-Mormons ? lol
"Jeni Sorenson" <jeni...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3A786B9E...@uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:3N3e6.2400$yn6.4...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:fP3e6.2402$yn6.4...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
on the poor lowly mormon woman anymore lol
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:YP3e6.2404$yn6.4...@news.uswest.net...
Jeni Sorenson
C&C
> Amen ! Commence the annoyance !!
Perhaps we can start by reliving old favorites ...
Do you remember that thread where you kept telling me to go away but then
kept responding to my replies? I narrowly avoided your killfile, surviving
only to pester you again.
Then there was that one time that I convinced you that an "M" movie rating
stood for "Mormon," which meant that the movie was approved by the General
Authorities. As I recall, Jeni blew the whistle on that one and ended my
fun.
And then there was the time I made you believe that Russell McGregor was a
devout Muslim and was taking off on a pilgrimmage to Mecca. Come to think
of it, Jeni blew the whistle on that one too! Could there be a pattern
here?
However, with every pester point I score, you become a little less
pesterable, thus making my job more difficult. Still fun, but more
difficult.
Did I forget any?
Chuck
C&C
> Yes, Yes hail King Chuck. Commence the annoyence.....lol
>
> MyTwoCents wrote:
>
> > Amen ! Commence the annoyance !!
Hey, aren't you the gal who foils all my evil plots?!
Chuck
C&C
> TwoCents still gives some of the anti's a hard time. i.e. Data Rat. As for
me
> yes I've gone a little soft. I let TwoCents tell them off.......lol
What? No more arguments with the college sports crowd?
Chuck
C&C
> Yeah ...CharlesWaters is off on another tangent now a days ..he doesn't
pick
> on the poor lowly mormon woman anymore lol
I am still wondering why you and Charles don't get along. Perhaps you are
too much alike?
Chuck
C&C
> ...you say that like it's a bad thing heheheh
Not bad, just distinctive. As in, you have no problem standing out in a
crowd.
Chuck
MyTwoCents
put you in my kill file cuz you really did turn out to be a good dorkmo :0)
Kinda like a rare fungus .... you grew on me :0)
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:Liqe6.3480$vu6.5...@news.uswest.net...
C&C
> Yes, yes I do remember. What a brat you were (are lol) I'm glad I didn't
> put you in my kill file cuz you really did turn out to be a good dorkmo
:0)
> Kinda like a rare fungus .... you grew on me :0)
And the definition of "dorkmo?"
Chuck
C&C
> Yes Chuckster ! Congrats on your med license ! ...now ...about this pain
in
> my neck ...are you experienced in removing anti-Mormons ? lol
Thank you. The only difficulty in obtaining the license was financial --
after I paid ~$800 and waited three months they wrote me back saying that a
new law just went into effect and I owed them $75 more dollars. I was
forced to pay it because they were holding my license hostage.
On a resident's salary, 75 smackers is a lot of money. I just renewed it
for $285 more dollars, and when I graduate from residency they're going to
charge me $760 for the privilege of taking a two-day, 16 hour test so I can
call myself "board-certified." This on top of the near $100,000 I owe for
medical school, and it's no small wonder that the price of medicine is
rising in the good old US of A.
But I'm sorry, what was the question?
Chuck
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:Ukqe6.3492$vu6.5...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
doesn't bother me.
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:vlqe6.3495$vu6.5...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
doctor... lol
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:sMre6.3912$vu6.6...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:_Fre6.3887$vu6.6...@news.uswest.net...
Jeni Sorenson
Jeni Sorenson
Jeni Sorenson
trips. It gets real tiresome reading how intelligent they thought they
were.UGH!!!!
C&C
> No, I'm innocent. I didn't mean to ruin your fun, sorry. =(
Don't worry. I'm sure you'll have the opportunity to foil many more schemes
in the future.
Chuck
C&C
> Oh boo hoo ...you can pay your loan off on your first month's salary as a
> doctor... lol
What kind of medicine do you think I practice?!
Chuck
C&C
> No way man. It wasn's fun argueing with those guys. They were on major ego
> trips. It gets real tiresome reading how intelligent they thought they
> were.UGH!!!!
They were probably just trying to impress you.
Chuck
C&C
> Must have something to do with the fact that he's a chauvinist pig ...
So what's the problem?
Chuck
C&C
> dorkmo= a pain in the butt .... ur a good one though :0)
A pain in the what? Your posts should come with some sort of rating system
for harsh language and/or adult content.
Chuck
CharlesSWaters
MyTwoCents wrote:
>
> Must have something to do with the fact that he's a chauvinist pig ...
I'm a nice guy really, it's the apostle Paul that you don't like. But
then, I never did get along well with nazi feminist man haters. <wink>
> "C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:Ukqe6.3492$vu6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> > "MyTwoCents" <noo...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
> > > Yeah ...CharlesWaters is off on another tangent now a days ..he doesn't
> > pick
> > > on the poor lowly mormon woman anymore lol
> >
> > I am still wondering why you and Charles don't get along. Perhaps you are
> > too much alike?
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
--
Charles
"Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be
asked out of their Church. I want the liberty of thinking
and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be
trammelled."
- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.340
"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no
place." - Mahatma Gandhi
CharlesSWaters
You're aren't a gastro guy specializing in the tail end of the process
are you? ;-)
Tim & Beth
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I take offense
at you telling me what I believe... It is rude, indecent, and strongly
non-Christian. See my notes interspursed (sp?) below:
The DataRat wrote:
>
> "THE ARTICLES OF FAITH OF
> THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST
> OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS"
>
> This is the sanitized, Public Relation
> version of Mormonism.
You're entitled to your opinion on this point. I disagree with your summary
dismissal, however...
> What the Mormons won't tell you is:
To the contrary, most of us will be more than happy to discuss these and any
other issues with you at any time. Of course, we won't just blurt it out, so
you'll have to ask someone about it... :)
> They believe in multiple gods ..they're
> polytheists.
We believe multiple gods exist, but we put our faith in Heavenly Father as our
God. His is the only plan of salvation, and none other. His son is our only
redeemer, and none other.
> They believe God was once a man,
> and that men can become gods.
Why do state that we will not "tell you" this? This is the exaltation that is
at the center of His plan of salvation. Why in the world would we NOT tell you
about it???
> They deny the Trinity, and believe that
> Father, Son, and Spirit are three separate
> and individual gods.
We do not deny the trinity. We define it differently from you... Yes, of
course they are three separate beings, united in purpose; God the Father, Jesus
Christ his only begotten son in the flesh, and the Holy Ghost. Again, you
stated that we would not share that with people, but the post to which you
responded stated it quite boldly. I'm not one to call other people liars, but
when you contradict yourself so blatently, you make it mighty difficult not
to...
> They believe God the Father had physical
> sexual intercourse with Mary.
Nope. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I can
tell you that I personally do not believe what you stated above... Not even
close. I can't tell you what everyone else believes in this area, only that I
do not.
> They believe that Christ is the "spirit
> brother" of Lucifer.
Yep. I personally do believe that... Just as He is my brother, and yours, in
the spirit...
> Mormonism ISN'T
> Christian, It's Pagan
> Polytheism !
Okay, this is definitely NOT something I believe in...
> The DataRat
And I certainly do not believe in the DataRat. :) Instead of "telling" us
what we believe, have you ever considered "asking" us what we believe??? Or do
you only believe what you read in anti-Mormon pamphlets and literature?
By the way, I normally do not cross-post to other newsgroups out of respect for
those groups. But, on this issue, I felt the truth should be aired in all the
forums the lies dirtied-up. Please, do not cross post this filth into
fellowship-style newsgroups.
Tim
Tim & Beth
Tim
MyTwoCents wrote:
>
> I know ..sad huh? Except for the Dave Naas's, Tims and Dales of this group
> (besides Jeni) this place is pretty much apostate. Kinda sad ...
>
> Chuck give us some wisdom please , we're DYING for wisdom lol
>
> "C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:GyPd6.2908$5g6.6...@news.uswest.net...
> > "Jeni Sorenson" <jeni...@uswest.net> wrote:
> > > Yes, that's her. HEY where have you been? We missed you. =( I've missed
> > your
> > > one liners and your answers to get people to think. I'm glad your back.
> >
> > Hey, Jeni! I got my medical license in November and I've been busy doing
> > some after-hours moonlighting in addition to my residency training.
> Things
> > may calm down some in the near future, so I decided to hop back on.
> Dale's
> > right ... not much has changed here. It's like a little mini-ARM instead
> of
> > a fellowship group.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
Tim & Beth
The DataRat
"It is rude, indecent, and strongly
non-Christian"
You cultists would ~love~ to
convince Christians that exposing
cults like Mormonism is
"non-Christian". Sorry, it WON'T
work !
The DataRat
Jeff Shirton
Tim & Beth <tNiOm...@iowatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:3A7BB61F...@iowatelecom.net...
> As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
> Saints, I take offense at you telling me what I believe...
Well, for starters, I think with the exception of *one* point, you
agreed with everything else DR posted.
Second, to say "This is what Mormons believe", suggests that he is not
directing his comments at Mormons, but at others (which only makes
sense, since Mormons presumably already know what they believe, right?)
And while I fully agree that to learn a set of beliefs, you should go to
the source, you yourself admit that some of these beliefs are *not*
things that you go out of your way to tell anyone about. So in that
respect, I don't consider it a bad thing for him to have posted it, as
long as it's true.
> > What the Mormons won't tell you is:
>
> To the contrary, most of us will be more than happy
> to discuss these and any other issues with you at
> any time. Of course, we won't just blurt it out,
> so you'll have to ask someone about it... :)
And there are some things that people are *obviously* not going to know
to ask. That's the point.
They won't know to ask.
And you're going to hide it unless they ask.
So they need someone like DR to let them know that these *are* issues.
> > They believe in multiple gods ..they're
> > polytheists.
>
> We believe multiple gods exist,
So DR's one for one.
> > They believe God was once a man,
> > and that men can become gods.
>
> Why do state that we will not "tell you" this?
Perhaps because it's true?
> This is the exaltation that is at the center of His
> plan of salvation. Why in the world would we NOT
> tell you about it???
Okay, at what part of the missionary experience do missionaries share
this with investigators of the church?
> > They deny the Trinity, and believe that
> > Father, Son, and Spirit are three separate
> > and individual gods.
>
> We do not deny the trinity. We define it differently
> from you...
So you deny the *actual* definition of the Trinity (you are not free to
make up definitions for already defined words).
If you want a word to describe your Godhead, use "Godhead", or invent
another word for "Three Gods in committee". But yes, you deny the
Trinity, if you only "accept" it by redefining it. (And some would even
consider such a redefinition to be academically dishonest).
So DR's two for two.
> Again, you stated that we would not share that with
> people, but the post to which you responded stated
> it quite boldly. I'm not one to call other people
> liars, but when you contradict yourself so blatently,
> you make it mighty difficult not to...
Actually, we see the "lying" being done from the LDS side.
Consider this scenario. The missionaries are discussing LDS beliefs
with some Christians. The Christians ask if the LDS believes teaches
the "Trinity", since they are themselves Trinitarians, and will not
accept any non-Trinitarian theology. The missionaries say, "Yes, we
believe and teach the trinity." Of course, they have now led these
people to believe that the LDS church teaches the orthodox Trinity,
which couldn't be further from the truth.
This is not *honest*.
> > They believe God the Father had physical
> > sexual intercourse with Mary.
>
> Nope. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints, I can tell you that I personally
> do not believe what you stated above... Not even close.
> I can't tell you what everyone else believes in this
> area, only that I do not.
Historically, your leaders have taught this. While it is not a common
doctrine or belief now, it did come from your "prophets", and some
continue to believe it today. DR was wrong to suggest that it is
universal and mandatory doctrine, but Mormons *do* believe that. Not
all, but some.
> > They believe that Christ is the "spirit
> > brother" of Lucifer.
>
> Yep. I personally do believe that...
DR's three for three.
> > Mormonism ISN'T
> > Christian, It's Pagan
> > Polytheism !
>
> Okay, this is definitely NOT something I believe in...
You just agreed that "we believe multiple gods exist"!
That's "polytheism"!
> Or do you only believe what you read in anti-Mormon
> pamphlets and literature?
You know what? Mormons who claim that critics have no information other
than "anti-Mormon pamphlets" are just as bad as non-Mormons who try to
tell Mormons what they believe.
> Tim
Jeff Shirton
Huldah
<tNiOm...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
Tim and Beth,
Here you say you believe multiple gods exist...
>We believe multiple gods exist, but we put our faith in Heavenly Father as our
>God. His is the only plan of salvation, and none other. His son is our only
>redeemer, and none other.
<snip>
>> Mormonism ISN'T
>> Christian, It's Pagan
>> Polytheism !
>
>Okay, this is definitely NOT something I believe in...
<snip>
While here you indignantly deny being a polytheist. But the
dictionary definition of polytheism is belief in multiple gods:
"polytheism, [Gr. 'polys,' many, 'theos,' god.] The doctrine of a
plurality of gods. - polytheist, A person who believes in a plurality
of gods." (Webster's International, 1965).
---
Huldah
For the Bible truth about 'Oneness' Pentecostalism, see:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/op.html
More wit and wisdom from Mr. Bassett, United Pentecostal Cult 'minister':
Message-ID: <37bebf76...@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Lets get something else, straight. I have
no respect for shams like yourself,
and less respect for Satan who puts lies in your mouth.
Message-ID: <37cc29f4....@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Satan, the blood of Jesus Christ is against you.
Message-ID: <37bcdde...@news.iconn.net>
[MB] PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION MINISTER OF SATAN,
STEVEN RAY WINTER.
<snip>
[MB] Malicious, deceitful, backslidden, lying, returned to vomit sinner, Mr Winter,
you have little cover for your shame as
a backslider, but idiocy will not serve you either!
Message-ID: <37b44f5b....@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Satan's head just came up a little to far above the surface,
and his disguise slipped.
[MB] Have a great day Michael.
Message-ID: <386d7b60....@news.optonline.net>
[MB] So come on, dear woman, post some more condemnation
and quotes taken out of context
Your daddy is wanting his quota,
and you are obviously hungry for some recognition.
Message-ID: <37bfc04e...@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Hey Liar... ANYONE can see what you are doing
you low-life, pathetic little twit.
C&C
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 02:41:19 -0500, Tim & Beth
> <tNiOm...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
>
> Tim and Beth,
>
> Here you say you believe multiple gods exist...
>
> >We believe multiple gods exist, but we put our faith in Heavenly Father
as our
> >God. His is the only plan of salvation, and none other. His son is our
only
> >redeemer, and none other.
>
> <snip>
> >> Mormonism ISN'T
> >> Christian, It's Pagan
> >> Polytheism !
> >
> >Okay, this is definitely NOT something I believe in...
> <snip>
>
> While here you indignantly deny being a polytheist. But the
> dictionary definition of polytheism is belief in multiple gods:
>
> "polytheism, [Gr. 'polys,' many, 'theos,' god.] The doctrine of a
> plurality of gods. - polytheist, A person who believes in a plurality
> of gods." (Webster's International, 1965).
The polytheism of the LDS isn't traditional polytheism. While LDS may
believe that multiple Gods exist, they only worship one God.
When people claim that the LDS are polytheistic, usually what is understood
is that the LDS both believe in and worship multiple Gods, and that is a
misconception. In the future, when you make this claim, please add the
addendum that the LDS do not *worship* multiple gods to avoid confusion.
But when you get right down to it, this whole line of reasoning is nonsense,
because Christianity itself is polytheistic. You try to package three Gods
into one, but the Jews have been right all along: the one-in-three,
three-in-one formulation of the Trinity is logically unsound. It's either
three or it's one. Try as you might, you can't have it both ways.
Things like this remind me why it's so much simpler to just surrender to
common sense and be an atheist.
Chuck
The DataRat
"The polytheism of the LDS isn't
traditional polytheism. While LDS
may believe that multiple Gods exist,
they only worship one God"
Yeah, DataRat knows, it's henotheism.
Henotheism is just a kind and a subset
of polytheism.
Doesn't change the fact that Mormons
are polytheists !
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Christianity itself is polytheistic.
You try to package three Gods
into one"
That's a lie !
Christians label as a "heretic" anyone
who believes the Trinity is three gods.
You are a deceiver, sir ! Christians
believe in three Persons in triunity as
ONE God.
The DataRat
C&C
>
>
> C&C wrote:
> >
> > "MyTwoCents" <noo...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
> > > dorkmo= a pain in the butt .... ur a good one though :0)
> >
> > A pain in the what? Your posts should come with some sort of rating
system
> > for harsh language and/or adult content.
>
> You're aren't a gastro guy specializing in the tail end of the process
> are you? ;-)
No, but I am routinely required to venture into crevices that should not be
ventured in.
Chuck
Scott Marquardt
>But when you get right down to it, this whole line of reasoning is nonsense,
>because Christianity itself is polytheistic. You try to package three Gods
>into one, but the Jews have been right all along: the one-in-three,
>three-in-one formulation of the Trinity is logically unsound. It's either
>three or it's one. Try as you might, you can't have it both ways.
You're wrong.
Logically, there'd be a problem if trinitarians were saying that A, B, and
C are "one in alphabet, but three in alphabet" -- or "one in letter, and
three in letter." That would be a flat contradiction. But that's not what
trinitarians are saying at all. They say that A, B and C are "one in
alphabet, three in letter." There's absolutely nothing illogical about
that.
- Scott
Elizabeth & Dale
Scott Marquardt wrote:
Unless, of course your reader is a Jew, a Moslem, a Unitarian, or a YHWHist,
-- not to mention Jesus himself -- who was not a trinitarian.
The Trinity is a concept created by imperfect humankind to explain perfect God.
The Roman Catholics go you one better by adding Mary in there (She's at least
alongside the Godhead, if not inside it).
So, let's agree to make it a quaternary and mayhap I'll join you mainstreamers.
Ok, Pilgrim?
Brother Broadhurst
(always a Saint -- never a Christian)
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:WiKe6.5239$YA6.6...@news.uswest.net...
MyTwoCents
"Tim & Beth" <tNiOm...@iowatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:3A7BB733...@iowatelecom.net...
MyTwoCents
"C&C" <camn...@nospam.qwest.net> wrote in message
news:8fKe6.5222$YA6.6...@news.uswest.net...
hblack
The Book of Mormon stresses that there is one and only one God, Jesus
Christ, and he is the only being we worship, and that he himself is simply his
own Eternal Father:
2 Nephi 25:29
Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and
worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul
Mosiah 15:1
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his
people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God
2 Nephi 11:7
if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for
there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he
cometh in the fulness of his own time
Later Mormonism trashed this naive modalist monotheism and adopted a
hierarchy of Gods, in which each God worships the Father of his spirit. Of
course, in Mormonism, every God is an exalted Man of flesh who begets spirit
children by the women in his harem.
Contrary to the Book of Mormon, and to all common sense, the Mormon prophet
Brigham Young stressed that the Father of Mankind's spirits to be none other
than Adam, the first man on earth. He further stated that he alone "is our God,
and the only God with whom we have to do... Every man upon the earth,
professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner
or later.... the same character that was in the garden of Eden ... is our Father
in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make
light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their
salvation or damnation." (Journal of Discourses 1:50-51: 9 April 1852).
While some Mormon Apostles now assert that mankind worships one God,
Mormonism asserts there are many different "mankinds" throughout the universe,
each of which worships their own tribal God, i.e., the particular father of
their spirits.
Harry Black
C&C wrote:
<snip>
C&C
You can also believe that a circle is a square, and label as a heretic
anyone who doesn't similarly believe, but that doesn't mean that the belief
makes any logical sense.
Is it three, or is it one?
Chuck
C&C
> C&C wrote:
>
> >But when you get right down to it, this whole line of reasoning is
nonsense,
> >because Christianity itself is polytheistic. You try to package three
Gods
> >into one, but the Jews have been right all along: the one-in-three,
> >three-in-one formulation of the Trinity is logically unsound. It's
either
> >three or it's one. Try as you might, you can't have it both ways.
>
> You're wrong.
Explain to me how you can believe in three distinct entities but at the same
time only believe in one.
If you can do that, I'll yield. Good luck.
> Logically, there'd be a problem if trinitarians were saying that A, B, and
> C are "one in alphabet, but three in alphabet" -- or "one in letter, and
> three in letter." That would be a flat contradiction. But that's not what
> trinitarians are saying at all. They say that A, B and C are "one in
> alphabet, three in letter." There's absolutely nothing illogical about
> that.
If that's what the trinitarians are saying, then they would have no problem
with the LDS formulation of "one in purpose, three in identity."
The fact is that the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene creed, is "one in
letter, and three in letter."
Chuck
C&C
Harry, you are correct again, but do we differ anywhere, or are you just
expanding on my point?
Chuck
C&C
> The kind that will make you rich in no time ...
You're probably thinking of medicine as it existed in the USA 20 years ago.
Now that managed care has creeped into the picture, the only people in
medicine that are getting rich in no time are the CEOs of those HMOs.
Chuck
C&C
> That one was rated M
HA! I see you have not lost your sense of humor, despite my constant
pestering.
Chuck
Scott Marquardt
>Unless, of course your reader is a Jew, a Moslem, a Unitarian, or a YHWHist,
>-- not to mention Jesus himself -- who was not a trinitarian.
>The Trinity is a concept created by imperfect humankind to explain perfect God.
>The Roman Catholics go you one better by adding Mary in there (She's at least
>alongside the Godhead, if not inside it).
>So, let's agree to make it a quaternary and mayhap I'll join you mainstreamers.
>Ok, Pilgrim?
Incredulity I can stomach. It's the assertion that there's something
illogical about it that always freaks me out. Incredulity is downright
respectable, guy!
Mistaken, of course, but respectable. ;D
- Scott
Scott Marquardt
>The fact is that the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene creed, is "one in
>letter, and three in letter."
Please cite the pertinent passage in the Nicene creed.
Good luck.
- Scott
hblack
technically incorrect, since the Creed quite specifically denies this. You may
regard the Creed as self-contradictory rubbish, but again, Trinitarians
resolutely regard the Trinity as an inexplicable mystery -- it is certainly
futile to argue with someone over an "inexplicable mystery." Islam and Judaism,
of course, reject the Trinity as a ruse, but they would agree with Christians on
fundamentals: the true nature of the One transcends human understanding. This
indeed summarizes the common experience of mankind.
In contrast, Mormon theology asserts a pagan pantheon of flesh Gods, and
makes ancestor worship the ultimate rule of the universe. So, the accusation of
polytheism has to stick on Mormons. Whereas orthodox Christians resolutely claim
the triune God is an inexplicable mystery, Mormonism boasts that Mormons are
expected to know with certainty the nature of their Gods:
[President Joseph Smith,
General Conference Sermon, (7 Apr 1844)]
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the
character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses
with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the
Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I
will show it from the Bible.
Re: Joseph Smith, Jr. History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, 2d ed., rev. 7 vols. (SLC UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, 1960), 6:305; Journal of Discourses 6 (1859): 3; Smith, Joseph Jr.,
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith Jr. Compiler, (SLC
UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1938), 345-346.
Finally, what exactly does Mormonism say of the Trinitarian Creed, and of
all who profess it?
[President Joseph Smith,
Times and Seasons, 3 (1 Apr 1842): 748]
I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects
was right, (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were
wrong,) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them,
for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their
creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt
Harry
C&C wrote:
<snip>
C&C
"The Nicene Creed, ELLC Translation"
"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen."
One or three, three or one? The Nicene Creed is specific that this God is
somehow one *in* three, but fails to explain exactly how this can happen --
it is simply one of the mysteries.
It isn't, as you propose, a matter of "one in alphabet, three in letter."
It is very clearly "one in letter, three in letter."
Any luck on your explanation on exactly how this can happen?
Chuck
C&C
> I'd say your claim that Trinitarian Christians are polytheists is
> technically incorrect, since the Creed quite specifically denies this.
The Creed says it denies it, yet lists three Gods to be worshiped. It's
simply a matter of wordplay to squeeze these three Gods into one.
The Chuckean Creed: "Red is red, and green is green, and red is also green."
Saying it doesn't make it so. It doesn't even make it possible. I can deny
that red and green are two separate colors, but it's just words.
> You may regard the Creed as self-contradictory rubbish,
I do.
> but again, Trinitarians
> resolutely regard the Trinity as an inexplicable mystery -- it is
certainly
> futile to argue with someone over an "inexplicable mystery." Islam and
Judaism,
> of course, reject the Trinity as a ruse, but they would agree with
Christians on
> fundamentals: the true nature of the One transcends human understanding.
This
> indeed summarizes the common experience of mankind.
Granted, and I yield that it is pointless to argue things that are claimed
to be inexplicable. Therefore, I will stop doing so.
> In contrast, Mormon theology asserts a pagan pantheon of flesh Gods,
and
> makes ancestor worship the ultimate rule of the universe. So, the
accusation of
> polytheism has to stick on Mormons.
Mormons certainly are polytheists. But the term needs to be clarified to
distinguish between traditional Christian polytheism (define it anyway you
want, but as long as there are three Gods mentioned in that creed,
Christians are polytheists) and the LDS polytheism, which is really more of
a consequence of their belief that man can become God than anything else.
All accurate quotations. The problem is that LDS doctrine is so malleable
it should come with a disclaimer: "Quoting past church leaders is no
indication of future performance."
Chuck
The DataRat
"The Creed says it denies it, yet lists
three Gods to be worshiped"
The Creed says "I believe in one God",
you deceiver !
The DataRat
Tim & Beth
Tim
Pastor Frank
tells us to look for Him NOT in everything, but in only three forms, that is
the Father as He appeared to Adam and Eve, the Son, as He appeared in the
flesh to people in NT times, and now as the Holy Spirit, which resides in
every one of God's children. It's therefore ONE almighty God appearing in 3
different forms, each time being the same person, -God Himself.
Only those who don't believe God to be almighty doubt His ability to
appear any time, anywhere and in any form and number He desires.
Pastor Frank
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.
Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ
Jesus.
Pastor Frank
number, time and place He desires. To avoid confusion, God wants us to
recognize and worship Him in only three forms, the Father, the Son and The
Holy Spirit. Hardly confusing, nor "illogical"!!
Pastor Frank
"I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast
hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them
unto babes."
-- Jesus in Matthew 11:25
"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child,
he shall not enter therein." -- Jesus in Mark 10:15
Web
"Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:95jog8$kf9$4...@nntp.mozcom.com...
> God is almighty as well as omnipresent and can appear in any form,
> number, time and place He desires. To avoid confusion, God wants us to
> recognize and worship Him in only three forms, the Father, the Son and The
> Holy Spirit. Hardly confusing, nor "illogical"!!
>
> Pastor Frank
To me, your ideas are all very illogical. In oerder for your trinity to be
logical, the question "why" must be answered. Why would Heavenly Father
present such an confusing and unexplainable notion of Himself? Why not
recognize the true nature of the Godhead?
Heavenly Father is the organizer of this earth. He is God
Jesus The Christ is His Only Begotten Son and is the God of this earth. He
is God
Jesus The Christ is the same Jehovah who was and is the God of the Old
Testament.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit being who has not yet obtained a physical body
like you and I and Jehovah have. He/She/It is God
These three Gods make up the Godhead that is over this earth.
Gen. 1:26
26 ś And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 3
22 ś And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know
good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the
tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Matthew 3
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am
well pleased.
Matt. 17
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold
a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am
well pleased; hear ye him.
Three distinctly different individualy = one Godhead.
Web
Scott Marquardt
>"Scott Marquardt" <no...@spam.com> wrote:
>> C&C wrote:
>> >The fact is that the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene creed, is "one in
>> >letter, and three in letter."
>> Please cite the pertinent passage in the Nicene creed.
>> Good luck.
>One or three, three or one? The Nicene Creed is specific that this God is
>somehow one *in* three, but fails to explain exactly how this can happen --
>it is simply one of the mysteries.
Brilliant! Jolly good, you've done it! You've demonstrated that contrary to
your own assertion, the Nicene creed does not assert that God is one in the
same quality as he is three. It *does* say that Jesus is of one Being with
the Father (as a good orthodox creed should). Nowhere in the creed does it
say Jesus is the same *person* as the Father. For good reason!
>It isn't, as you propose, a matter of "one in alphabet, three in letter."
>It is very clearly "one in letter, three in letter."
Aaaaurgh! Point out the phrase that's so danged clear, will you?
>Any luck on your explanation on exactly how this can happen?
Why should I explain what the creed doesn't assert? Below's the creed -- by
all means point out the passage that's so "clear," OK?
Or you could just accept the answer trinitarians have always given -- that
God is one in Being, three in Person. If you're seriously going to argue
that trinitarian belief as understood by the ecumenical councils is either
that God is one in person and three in person, or one in being and three in
being, then I can't help you -- you're not thinking right about what you
read, and that's the only way I have of presenting you with anything.
But in all seriousness, I've always been amazed at how LdS suppose the
Nicene creed is the "big item" in orthodoxy. It's the outcome of our first
ecumenical council, true. But LdS seem to have been educated (in what
circus?) to suppose that All Things Wrong Among Apostates may be found in
the Nicene creed. Which is bizarre, since the Nicene creed's major concern
was denying Arianism, which is not a trinitarian issue simpliciter (it has
trinitarian implications, obviously).
Look, why don't you look up the Athanasian creed online, and enjoy finding
all kids of stuff to post here in criticism of orthodoxy? The Nicene creed
is very plain and clear in what it *asserts*; it bothers not at all to
*explain*. That's not its purpose! Aside from its explicit denial of Arian
belief, it's not an apologetic document. You won't find explanations,
because no one ever intended that the creed should offer them. That's not
what it's for!
But again, why don't you check out the Athanasian? It offers no
explanations either, but I think you'll have more fun with what it asserts.
For those who wish to misunderstand something, no one could recommend a
better creed than the Athanasian. It's target-rich for those who like to
engender confusion!
Enjoy...
- Scott
Jeff Shirton
> Mormons certainly are polytheists. But the term
> needs to be clarified to distinguish between
> traditional Christian polytheism (define it anyway
> you want, but as long as there are three Gods
> mentioned in that creed, Christians are polytheists)
But there are *not* "three Gods mentioned". There is *one* God
mentioned. That is the point.
An example.
We look from the front of Mt. Sinai, and we see a mountain.
We look from the back of Mt. Sinai, and we see a mountain.
We look from the top of Mt. Sinai, and we see a mountain.
Yet there are not "three" mountains, but *one* mountain.
Three things are mentioned as a mountain, but there are not "therefore"
three mountains, but *one* mountain.
Just because the Nicene creed mentions three that are God, does not mean
that they are separate "gods", and not the same God.
> Chuck
Jeff Shirton
Huldah
wrote:
> In fact Mormons are not quite sure who they worship.
> The Book of Mormon stresses that there is one and only one God, Jesus
>Christ, and he is the only being we worship, and that he himself is simply his
>own Eternal Father:
Harry, this is true. Strangely, the theological error you'll find in
the Book of Mormon is not polytheism but modalism:
"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand
that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall
redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be
called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of
the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because he was
conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus
becoming the Father and Son - And they are one God, yea, the very
Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming
subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God,
suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation..." (Book of
Mormon, Mosiah 15:1-5)
"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to
redeem my people. Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the
Son. In me shall all mankind have life...and they shall become my
sons and my daughters." (Book of Mormon, Ether 3:14)
This idea, that Jesus is both Father and Son, the Father being the
'Spirit' and the Son being the 'flesh,' is the heresy you'll hear
expressed today on Usenet by Steve Winter.
>2 Nephi 25:29
>Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and
>worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul
>
>Mosiah 15:1
>God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his
>people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God
>
>2 Nephi 11:7
>if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for
>there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he
>cometh in the fulness of his own time
>
> Later Mormonism trashed this naive modalist monotheism and adopted a
>hierarchy of Gods, in which each God worships the Father of his spirit. Of
>course, in Mormonism, every God is an exalted Man of flesh who begets spirit
>children by the women in his harem.
For those interested, I have on my web site Joseph Smith's King
Follett discourse, wherein he sets forth these ideas:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/Texts/Follett.html
> Contrary to the Book of Mormon, and to all common sense, the Mormon prophet
>Brigham Young stressed that the Father of Mankind's spirits to be none other
>than Adam, the first man on earth. He further stated that he alone "is our God,
>and the only God with whom we have to do... Every man upon the earth,
>professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner
>or later.... the same character that was in the garden of Eden ... is our Father
>in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make
>light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their
>salvation or damnation." (Journal of Discourses 1:50-51: 9 April 1852).
> While some Mormon Apostles now assert that mankind worships one God,
>Mormonism asserts there are many different "mankinds" throughout the universe,
>each of which worships their own tribal God, i.e., the particular father of
>their spirits.
>> The polytheism of the LDS isn't traditional polytheism. While LDS may
>> believe that multiple Gods exist, they only worship one God.
CC, They call that 'henotheism,' and it is most rationally categorized
as a sub-species of polytheism. You'll note in the dictionary that
'polytheism' is not defined as the *worship* of multiple gods, but the
*teaching* of a plurality of gods:
"polytheism, [Gr. 'polys,' many, 'theos,' god.] The doctrine of a
plurality of gods. - polytheist, A person who believes in a plurality
of gods." (Webster's International, 1965).
>> When people claim that the LDS are polytheistic, usually what is understood
>> is that the LDS both believe in and worship multiple Gods, and that is a
>> misconception. In the future, when you make this claim, please add the
>> addendum that the LDS do not *worship* multiple gods to avoid confusion.
---
Huldah
For the Bible truth about 'Oneness' Pentecostalism, see:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/op.html
More wit and wisdom from Mr. Bassett, United Pentecostal Cult 'minister':
Message-ID: <37bebf76...@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Lets get something else, straight. I have
no respect for shams like yourself,
and less respect for Satan who puts lies in your mouth.
Message-ID: <37cc29f4....@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Satan, the blood of Jesus Christ is against you.
Message-ID: <37bcdde...@news.iconn.net>
[MB] PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION MINISTER OF SATAN,
STEVEN RAY WINTER.
<snip>
[MB] Malicious, deceitful, backslidden, lying, returned to vomit sinner, Mr Winter,
you have little cover for your shame as
a backslider, but idiocy will not serve you either!
Message-ID: <37b44f5b....@news.iconn.net>
[MB] Satan's head just came up a little to far above the surface,
and his disguise slipped.
[MB] Have a great day Michael.
hblack
[The Creed,
Synod of Nice (325 A.D.)]
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and
invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of
his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God
of very God, begotten [Gk /gennesenta/] not made, being of one substance [Gk
/homoousia/; Latin consubstantialem] with the Father ....
And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not
[Gk /En pote hote ouk En/], .... or that he is of a different substance or
essence [Gk /ex eteras hupostaseOs hE ousias/] [from the Father] or that he is a
creature, or subject to change or conversion —all that so say, the Catholic and
Apostolic Church anathematizes them.
---
Thus the very first clause stresses belief in one and only one God, and the
final paragraph emphatically denies that the Son is of any distinct substance or
essence from the Father, i.e., from the one and only God.
Now, it is admittedly difficult to conceive of a being who is three persons
in one, but that is a paradox Trinitarians accept in the Creed, and it is a
paradox that restates several readings in the NT that identify Jesus as a
distinct person from the Father, but not distinct in his divinity or being
(substance/ essence), e.g., "In the beginning ... the Word was with God, and the
Word was God" (John 1:1), "God the only Son" (John 1:18); "I and [my] Father are
one.... The Jews answered him ... thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John
10:30,33); "Christ, who is God over all" (Romans 9:5); "our great God and
Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 1:13).
It is a fine line that Trinitarians walk, one that has offended the Jews,
and today offends some 700+ million Moslems, who deny the divinity of Jesus.
But recall that the Creed was in fact created to securely establish
Christianity as monotheist, and to deny the possibility of more than God.
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are therefore agreed in professing
monotheism.
Harry
C&C wrote:
<snip>
hblack
Joseph Smith's funeral oration for King Follette was given as his General
Conference Sermon, and represents the culmination of his "restored gospel." It is
ironic that in it Smith trashes his earlier versions of God, found in his 1829 Book of
Mormon fraud, and in his 1835 Lectures on Theology.
At the time he gave this speech (7 Apr 1844), Smith was running for President of
the United States, and employing his church missionary force as campaign workers. Four
days after the speech, he had himself secretly anointed "King of Israel on Earth" by
his own secret world government, which he called "the Council of Fifty." This angered
his assistant LDS President, William Law, who proceeded to establish a dissident
newspaper, "the Nauvoo Expositor," in Smith's fortress city of Nauvoo. Historians note
that it was Smith's destruction of this press, while he was General of the militia
(i.e., "the Nauvoo Legion"), Mayor, and Chief Justice of Nauvoo, that led to his arrest
under Illinois Governor Thomas Ford, for treason, and which led to his eventual
lynching at Carthage Jail on June 27, 1844.
Smith's megalomania led him to believe he could create Holy Scripture, translate
all languages, rewrite the Bible, pretend to reveal secret handshakes and oaths that
could make men Gods themselves. His mental illness led him to violate his own church
law, secretly take other men's wives, marry his own daughters, and to establish and
secret police force, "the Danites," that operated outside the law.
The theological assertions in his speeches are of little import except for
documenting the progress of his insanity, which today unfortunately forms the core of
LDS Mormon doctrine.
Harry
PS:
The official LDS version of Joseph Smith's speech, and other online resources, is
given at:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/kingfolletsermon.htm
The King Follette Discourse is also found along with hundred of other works,
including many on Mormonism, all searchable and browsable at
<snip>
Huldah
wrote:
<snip>
>The Creed says it denies it, yet lists three Gods to be worshiped. It's
>simply a matter of wordplay to squeeze these three Gods into one.
C&C, there aren't any "three Gods," the Bible knows of only One: "Thus
saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no
God...Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that
time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God
beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:6-8).
That there is only One God is the foundation-stone of the doctrine of
the Trinity:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/truegod.html
---
Huldah
For the Bible truth about 'Oneness' Pentecostalism, see:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/op.html
For the Bible truth about the Jehovah's Witnesses, see:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/jw.html
For the Bible truth about Islam, see:
http://sites.netscape.net/trisagionseraph/islam.html
C&C
> C&C wrote:
>
> >"Scott Marquardt" <no...@spam.com> wrote:
> >> C&C wrote:
>
> >> >The fact is that the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene creed, is "one
in
> >> >letter, and three in letter."
>
> >> Please cite the pertinent passage in the Nicene creed.
>
> >> Good luck.
>
> >One or three, three or one? The Nicene Creed is specific that this God
is
> >somehow one *in* three, but fails to explain exactly how this can
happen --
> >it is simply one of the mysteries.
>
> Brilliant! Jolly good, you've done it! You've demonstrated that contrary
to
> your own assertion, the Nicene creed does not assert that God is one in
the
> same quality as he is three. It *does* say that Jesus is of one Being with
> the Father (as a good orthodox creed should). Nowhere in the creed does it
> say Jesus is the same *person* as the Father. For good reason!
And "one in being, but not one in person" somehow makes logical sense to
you?
> >It isn't, as you propose, a matter of "one in alphabet, three in letter."
> >It is very clearly "one in letter, three in letter."
>
> Aaaaurgh! Point out the phrase that's so danged clear, will you?
"God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father"
"On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father."
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets."
And so on and so forth. Point out the passage that specifically states that
they are "one in being but three in person."
The claim is that they are one, and yet somehow also three. Your "one in
alphabet, but three in letter" doesn't help clarify the paradox unless you
can explain further.
But the problem is that you claim it is an inexplicable paradox. Fine, but
then don't go on to claim that it is also perfectly logical.
> >Any luck on your explanation on exactly how this can happen?
>
> Why should I explain what the creed doesn't assert?
To provide evidence for your claim that the creed makes logical sense.
> Below's the creed -- by
> all means point out the passage that's so "clear," OK?
>
> Or you could just accept the answer trinitarians have always given -- that
> God is one in Being, three in Person. If you're seriously going to argue
> that trinitarian belief as understood by the ecumenical councils is either
> that God is one in person and three in person, or one in being and three
in
> being, then I can't help you -- you're not thinking right about what you
> read, and that's the only way I have of presenting you with anything.
"One in Being, three in Person." Care to clarify that?
> But in all seriousness, I've always been amazed at how LdS suppose
What do I care what LdS suppose?
Chuck
Scott Marquardt
> Now, it is admittedly difficult to conceive of a being who is three persons
>in one, but that is a paradox Trinitarians accept in the Creed,
??
I don't see any paradox at all. Three in person, one in being.
Is there a "paradox" in saying that a man and a woman are two in gender,
and one in their humanity? No, of course not.
The trinity isn't *at all* paradoxical. It's a mystery, yet. It's
unexplained, yes. But it's certainly not a paradox at all.
- Scott
C&C
> Let's look at the Creed itself:
>
> [The Creed,
> Synod of Nice (325 A.D.)]
> We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things
visible and
> invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten
of
> his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light,
very God
> of very God, begotten [Gk /gennesenta/] not made, being of one substance
[Gk
> /homoousia/; Latin consubstantialem] with the Father ....
> And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was
not
> [Gk /En pote hote ouk En/], .... or that he is of a different substance or
> essence [Gk /ex eteras hupostaseOs hE ousias/] [from the Father] or that
he is a
Thanks, Harry. At this point we will have to agree to disagree. Unless the
Trinitarians are willing to not only claim, but also explain, how they have
squished three gods into one, I remain unconvinced of their monotheism.
Chuck