Calling all scholarly and librarian type ARK folk
bar...@bookpro.com
working on an article's reference list. The primary source material
for one of the references can be found online, but it's got a
massively long URL that would be a bitch to include in a reference
list. Also, the journal articles are provided as PDFs, and we don't
embed links. So any reader who cared to follow up would have to do
some tedious copying and pasting or typing of a really really really
long and involved URL.
The author of the article provided a reference in a non-standard form.
Unfortunately, she is dead, and her coauthor has no access to the
primary source material and is on the other side of the world from
libraries where he could see it. So the best we can do is point
readers at what we believe to be the online version of the original
source material.
To show the journal editor the source, I generated at TinyURL URL. Now
the editor would like to use that in the printed reference. According
to the TinyURL FAQ, the links never expire, leaving uis with only the
usual risk that the original link will eventually not be productive.
The issue is whether a TinyURL URL would be a legitimate URL to use in
a scholarly reference list. I don't like the idea of using it, sort
of like listing secondary source material instead of primary, but it
would be so much easier for readers to use.
So what do you think? TinyURL OK or no?
I can't believe I'm asking ARK a serious question. I'll try to think
of one involving no pants later.
BW
John Schmidt
> The issue is whether a TinyURL URL would be a legitimate URL to use in
> a scholarly reference list. I don't like the idea of using it, sort
> of like listing secondary source material instead of primary, but it
> would be so much easier for readers to use.
I am neither scholarly nor a librarian, but I don't see the problem
with a TinyURL URL. It stands just as good a chance of remaining
accurate as a "real" URL. But I donut understand why you can't just
include both.
JS
bar...@bookpro.com
We probably can, but the journal editor would prefer to use the short
one.
Here's the long one:
I haven't yet tried to figure out how to chop that to fit our page
width in a reasonable way. It's going to look a mess, and I'm sure
that's what the journal editor wants to avoid.
It's not that the TinyURL won't remain as accurate; I'm not worried
about that. It's that this is a scholarly journal, and scholars are
funny about source citations, and http://tinyurl.com/ycsnokw does not
indicate the actual source. It's hard to explain. Librarians and
established rulebooks such as the Chicago Manual of Style, APA style
book, and MLA style book are having to figure out the rules for online
sources. This is the first time I've had one this complicated.
Even the Google Books link is less than ideal. We're not even sure
that is the actual source; it's just one of the few links I could find
for a series of annual reports, one or several of which are the actual
source.
It has been several days since I completed my first round of work on
the article and sent it to the journal editor and living coauthor for
review. Once I look at it again this afternoon, I might find that the
situation is either simpler or more complicated.
BW
Shelly
news:u0flg5dkjbbbbjl7n...@4ax.com...
> We probably can, but the journal editor would prefer to use the short
> one.
>
> Here's the long one:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Education+in+Alaska%22+%22bureau+of+education%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=j-docLe3HD&sig=eFlx8wXP4p9B20q1Jxy654mjofI&hl=en&ei=ArsKS4_9M8ymlAf5k_iEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
>
> I haven't yet tried to figure out how to chop that to fit our page
> width in a reasonable way. It's going to look a mess, and I'm sure
> that's what the journal editor wants to avoid.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net/blog
bar...@bookpro.com
wrote:
Hmmm, that might work. Thankyou.
BW
Shelly
<bar...@bookpro.com> wrote in message
news:dvflg5di21ji20r9m...@4ax.com...
Hope it does! If so, it'll be much more elegant than the long URL or
using tinyURL, which just doesn't seem right in an scholarly
publication.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net/blog
Madge
Or you could give your Phone no. and you could read the link out to them.
madge makes a gesture and summons a gigantic anvil, which promptly falls
on madge, crushing him utterly. On the anvil is inscribed, 'Silliness!
PLONK!'
--
http://www.madge.tk Madges Links
http://twitter.com/MadgeTwits Yes IKNOW.
Adam Funk
> The issue is whether a TinyURL URL would be a legitimate URL to use in
> a scholarly reference list. I don't like the idea of using it, sort
> of like listing secondary source material instead of primary, but it
> would be so much easier for readers to use.
>
> So what do you think? TinyURL OK or no?
If you can find any other work-around, avoid it, simply because lots
of people think TinyURLs are too volatile (and they might be right).
If not, it's better than nothing.
How about a DOI?
> I can't believe I'm asking ARK a serious question. I'll try to think
> of one involving no pants later.
You could be working from home.
--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele]
bar...@bookpro.com
<deletethisbit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:57:34 -0500, Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>
>> <bar...@bookpro.com> wrote in message
>> news:u0flg5dkjbbbbjl7n...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> We probably can, but the journal editor would prefer to use the short
>>> one.
>>>
>>> Here's the long one:
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Education+in+Alaska%22+%22bureau+of+education%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=j-docLe3HD&sig=eFlx8wXP4p9B20q1Jxy654mjofI&hl=en&ei=ArsKS4_9M8ymlAf5k_iEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
>>>
>>> I haven't yet tried to figure out how to chop that to fit our page
>>> width in a reasonable way. It's going to look a mess, and I'm sure
>>> that's what the journal editor wants to avoid.
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq
>>
>
>Or you could give your Phone no. and you could read the link out to them.
Oh, yes! I especially like carefully pronouncing "h t t p 'colon'
'slash' 'slash' w w w 'dot'" By then, they'll want to kill me, and we
won't even have got to the fun parts. And if they're calling me
long-distance, especially from a country other than the You Ess, it
could be a very expensive way to find the link.
To make this even more fun, the URL I found is for just one report;
the reference in the article is for a series of reports for an unknown
number of years in the late 1800s and early 1900s. So if I use the
URL Shelly kindly provided, that won't be the URL for the range of
reports we're listing in the reference.
So whatever I do will be inaccurate (or "wrong" as non-editors would
say). So maybe it doesn't matter what I do about it. Except I need
to persuade the journal editor that we're doing it right.
BW
Doctroid
bar...@bookpro.com wrote:
> To make this even more fun, the URL I found is for just one report;
> the reference in the article is for a series of reports for an unknown
> number of years in the late 1800s and early 1900s. So if I use the
> URL Shelly kindly provided, that won't be the URL for the range of
> reports we're listing in the reference.
>
> So whatever I do will be inaccurate (or "wrong" as non-editors would
> say). So maybe it doesn't matter what I do about it. Except I need
> to persuade the journal editor that we're doing it right.
I guess I'm confused as to why you have to have a URL at all. I mean
the sources really are the reports, and the Goolge Books link is just an
image of one of those reports. For citation purposes the reports are
what you want, right? And if people want to read those reports online
they can JFGI.
--
Sig available on request.
- Doctroid
bar...@bookpro.com
wrote:
Yes, for citation purposes, the reports are what we want. And they
apprently live in a handful of libraries at most and are not all
available via Teh Goolge. The problem is that the original author
mentioned only the title "Education in Alaska" without specifying from
which of the twenty-odd years of rso-named eports she got the
information in two sentences in the article (one sentence in each of
two sections of the article). (And then she died. That'll larn her.)
Like a dutiful editor of a scholarly journal, I decided to add the
name of the putative author and query the still-living coauthor about
same. It went downhill from there. If I hadn't queried him, and if
it weren't for those durned meddling kids, I'd have got away with it.
BW
bar...@bookpro.com
wrote:
I am working from home. But it's too cold for no pants today.
BW
Nicko
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:13:54 -0500, Madge
>
>
>
> <deletethisbit.itsreallyh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:57:34 -0500, Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>
> >>news:u0flg5dkjbbbbjl7n...@4ax.com...
>
> >>> We probably can, but the journal editor would prefer to use the short
> >>> one.
>
> >>> Here's the long one:
>
>
> >>> I haven't yet tried to figure out how to chop that to fit our page
> >>> width in a reasonable way. It's going to look a mess, and I'm sure
> >>> that's what the journal editor wants to avoid.
>
> >>http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq
>
> >Or you could give your Phone no. and you could read the link out to them.
>
> Oh, yes! I especially like carefully pronouncing "h t t p 'colon'
> 'slash' 'slash' w w w 'dot'" By then, they'll want to kill me, and we
> won't even have got to the fun parts. And if they're calling me
> long-distance, especially from a country other than the You Ess, it
> could be a very expensive way to find the link.
>
> To make this even more fun, the URL I found is for just one report;
> the reference in the article is for a series of reports for an unknown
> number of years in the late 1800s and early 1900s. So if I use the
> URL Shelly kindly provided, that won't be the URL for the range of
> reports we're listing in the reference.
>
> So whatever I do will be inaccurate (or "wrong" as non-editors would
> say). So maybe it doesn't matter what I do about it. Except I need
> to persuade the journal editor that we're doing it right.
Along with tinyurl couldn't you also use footnotes to indicate the
original URLs (if there are only a few); and/or insert references (if
there are many) to a list of URLs in an appendix?
--
YOP...
Glenn Knickerbocker
> http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&dq
or even:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ
The unspecified "dq" parameter doesn't change the result at all. If the
reference is to a particular page, you can include the "pg" parameter,
e.g.:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1456
Sadly, searching once you're inside the book doesn't bring up links with
this parameter, but they're simple enough to guess at and try out--
except, of course, for odd ones of this form (from a link under
"selected pages"):
http://books.google.com/books?id=KTAWAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1456-IA1
�R
Nicko
> I am working from home. But it's too cold for no pants today.
So I guess your in-callers will just have to settle for twen...
<RUNS AWAY>
<red-shifting>
Never miiiinnnnnnnddddddd...
--
YOP...
bar...@bookpro.com
I don't even know which year(s) of the 20-plus years' worth of reports
she actually consulted in doing her research. I could find URLs for a
few of the possible years, but (a) I don't know if those are the right
years and (2) some half-formed idea I just forgot but I can't be
bothered to retype this.
It's really not worth making this any more complicated than it already
is. There were reference citations at the ends of two sentences (in a
26-page-long article), indicating that she found the information in
those sentences somewhere in one or more of those annual reports, but
her thesis doesn't depend on those points. It would be giving them
way too much weight to start listing scads of URLs. All I really
wanted to know was whether Sheldon Jackson wrote all the reports and
whether the reports covered all the years I said they did. I figured
that would cover our butts for not knowing which particular reports
she consulted. The still-living author doesn't have access to the
information I need (which may be in Alaska, whereas he is in Austria).
The still-dead author is remaining silent on the entire matter. Not
that anyone probably asked her, and I'm not going to start now. Things
are messy enough already.
I'm inclined to Doctroid's solution, or something like it. I'll
probably either leave the reference as I edited it or not list Sheldon
Jackson as the author, in case that adds information that leads the
interested reader to go astray by looking up the reference using his
name (when his name might not be on all the reports). I will probably
leave the range of dates in the reference to indicate that there were
a bunch of annual reports, not a single undated one. Unless the
journal author overrules me. At this point, I am against including
any URL at all.
BW
Matthew L. Martin
If I were doing this, and I am most assuredly not, I would not put a URL
in any scholarly work. A URL is a pointer and pointers go bad (some are
always bad). In this case, I would reference the fact that there are
many possible documents that contain the reference and provide enough
information so that a real scholar, with real interest, could find the
primary sources.
I don't think it is your job to prove the sources, just a way to find
them. Of course, what the hell do I know.
Matthew
--
I have two granddaughters:
Alex will find a way to silently get from where she is to where she
wants to be.
Anna will make an Anna sized hole between where she is to where she
wants to be.
Otto Bahn
So can footnotes whenever they sack Alexandria.
--oTTo--
bar...@bookpro.com
We do include URLs when necessary. Sometimes there are no documents
that contain the reference,though that is not the case with these
reports. Sometimes authors use URLs out of laziness; sometimes the
source material is not available in any other way. In this case, the
source material exists but would be damnably difficult to get one's
hands on.
It was not my idea to include the URL; it was the journal editor's
and he is, in effect, my boss on this job. We have a good working
relationship, and I might be able to talk him out of the URL. He has
been working in scholarly journals for many many years, and he doesn't
object to URLs in principle. I don't think he understands what a
TinyURL is, however.
Ordinarily, we would lean on the author to provide the reference
information, but this is a special case. The author is dead; the
co-author was brought on board later, for his expertise in statistics,
and was not involved in the original research; and the big boss--the
one above my journal editor--wants this article published. I don't
think it will end up being a big deal, but I figured it might be
educational and possibly entertaining to toss this little problem into
ARK. I haven't yet evaluated the outcome.
BW
Captain Infinity
bar...@bookpro.com wrote:
Please to make list of all ARK librarian wimmenfolk, take sexy pictures
and sell calendars, THAadvanceNKS!
**
Captain Infinity
David DeLaney
>I don't think it will end up being a big deal, but I figured it might be
>educational and possibly entertaining to toss this little problem into
>ARK. I haven't yet evaluated the outcome.
Well, in that case, is it too late to rickroll them?
Dave "you EARWORMED his THESIS?" "yes. Yes I Did. Mua ha haaaa!" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
bar...@bookpro.com
DeLaney) wrote:
>bar...@bookpro.com <bar...@bookpro.com> wrote:
>>I don't think it will end up being a big deal, but I figured it might be
>>educational and possibly entertaining to toss this little problem into
>>ARK. I haven't yet evaluated the outcome.
>
>Well, in that case, is it too late to rickroll them?
Not too late. And if I used a TinyURL, the journal editor would never
know. That's another potential danger of using TinyURL. But if
someone ever tried the link and it got back to him, I'd be scrod,
and--pluperfect subjunctive notwithstanding--I really like working on
this journal. So I think I'll pass on the rickrolling--ths time.
BW