The Persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses
Urundai Kozhambu
Witness and what they do. The Watchtower represents itself as the official
record of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Watchtower, May 15, 1950, p. 153
"Ten thousand ministers were placed in concentration camps. Only eight thousand
were released after World War II; two thousand had been murdered."
The Watchtower, July 1, 1979, pp. 7-8
"Their activities were banned and 6,019 were arrested, several of them two,
three or more times. Two thousand suffered in concentration camps. A total of
635 Witnesses died in prison, 203 being executed."
The Watchtower, January 1, 1964, p. 13
"They kept preaching even though 10,000 of them were put in concentration camps
and over 4,000 died there. The rest nearly starved to death."
The Watchtower, December 15, 1950, p. 500
"Already during the Hitler regime about 1,000 Jehovah's witnesses were executed
as traitors, because they not only refused to serve in the war but openly
opposed Hitler's authority. Another 1,000 of Jehovah's witnesses died in prisons
and concentration camps."
So there we have it:
10,000 or 2000 suffered in concentration camps. Take your pick.
1000 or 203 were executed. Take your pick
2000 suffered in concentration camps or 2000 were murdered in concentration
camps. Take your pick.
4000 died in concentration camps or 1000 died in both prisons AND concentration
camps. Take your pick.
OB...@aol.com
AD - 1942 AD.
Florence B. Nitengail
"Urundai Kozhambu" <Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hh6e...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> 4000 died in concentration camps or 1000 died in both prisons AND
> concentration
> camps. Take your pick.
>
The always come up with an excuse for their blatant contradictions. Most JWs
on this NG don't even bother to try and defend the WTS contradictions
anymore.
--
"There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed mumbling Goddidit."
Asuhd Onym
wrote:
> The Watchtower Society prides itself in keeping records of every Jehovah's
> Witness and what they do.
Do you mean the world headquarters keeps specific, personalized
records of every Jehovah's Witness and what they do at their world
headquarters, and not just summary statistics? If so, why do you
believe that?
As far as I know the Watchtower Society doesn't do that today. Simple
records of each 'publisher' are only kept by the local congregations.
Only aggregated statistics are sent to the Watchtower Society. That
was probably true from the earliest days.
> The Watchtower represents itself as the official
> record of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I believe that's true in general, but is it really true that every
number ever published is meant to be understood as an exact number?
From what you say below, that seems to be your point.
>
> The Watchtower, May 15, 1950, p. 153
>
> "Ten thousand ministers were placed in concentration camps. Only eight thousand
> were released after World War II; two thousand had been murdered."
>
> The Watchtower, July 1, 1979, pp. 7-8
>
> "Their activities were banned and 6,019 were arrested, several of them two,
> three or more times. Two thousand suffered in concentration camps. A total of
> 635 Witnesses died in prison, 203 being executed."
Since "The Watchtower" magazine isn't the only official record, I did
a little digging, and found this in The 1947 Yearbook of Jehovah's
Witnesses. p. 145 (a first-person report by the "German Branch
servant):
"For the first time I can give you a summary account of our
statistics of
persecutions, an exact control of which is kept here in the office.
This is
not complete, however, as by the separation of the immense German
territories to Poland and Czechoslovakia many brethren have not been
embraced therein. Just in these last weeks, as I advised you in my
last
monthly report, hundreds of brethren have been ejected from Silesia
and
Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia) and have arrived in western provinces of
Germany, where they must found a new homeland. These brethren will
also give us their reports regarding that which was heaped upon them
under the Nazi government; in this way the picture will be
considerably
supplemented. Nevertheless we have already a statement regarding
6,034 brethren, but you will gain a better idea from the attached
data
than I can tell you here. I have already mentioned that this list is
incomplete; we are certain that our calculation of 10,000 involved in
this
distressing experience is not overestimated. And it must be
expected
that we shall never be able to get absolutely correct figures along
these
lines, as a large number of the brothers and sisters are no more
alive
to report their experiences; and we are also unable to contact their
relatives. Then again many of those who were formerly persecuted as
"Bible Students" have today left our ranks and will have nothing more
to do with us and the work of the Lord."
This account indicates that the figure of 10,000 who suffered was an
estimate based on 6000+ known experiences and the supposition that
they hadn't collected all the facts at that point for reasons cited
(deaths of JWs, inability to contact relatives, the redrawing of
Germany's boundaries, and the fact that some fell away after suffering
persecution, so their experiences could not be verified first-hand,
but only estimated).
A side point or two is that the local German branch office had "exact
control" of the "statistics" that they kept, but that they were only
"statistics" and were not said to be detailed records of each person
who was ever a Witness. This report also shows that the world
headquarters ("The Watchtower Society") relies on reports from the
foreign branch offices which may at times include estimates.
After skimming comments in The Watchtower from 1950 to the present for
mentions of 10,000 Nazi-imprisoned Witnesses, it appears that the
estimate really included all imprisonments, and not just in
concentration camps; but it's true that sometimes they were only said
to have been in the concentration camps.
The 1979 Watchtower that you quote indicates that by that time the
'real numbers' were known, although later publications indicate that
those numbers were still not final, no doubt because of the very
nature and scope of the pogrom against them. In 1993, the book
Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom was published, which
gave these figures from 1933 to the end of the war:
6,262 are arrested, and their combined time of imprisonment totals
14,332 years;
2,074 are sent to concentration camps, where their confinement totals
8,332 years
This is on p. 720. These same figures are cited on p. 194, followed
by this statement:
"Secular writers usually opt for higher figures."
>
> The Watchtower, January 1, 1964, p. 13
>
> "They kept preaching even though 10,000 of them were put in concentration camps
> and over 4,000 died there. The rest nearly starved to death."
>
> The Watchtower, December 15, 1950, p. 500
>
> "Already during the Hitler regime about 1,000 Jehovah's witnesses were executed
> as traitors, because they not only refused to serve in the war but openly
> opposed Hitler's authority. Another 1,000 of Jehovah's witnesses died in prisons
> and concentration camps."
For what it's worth, the Dec 15, 1950 article cited above is itself a
quote attributed to the newspaper Stockholms-Tidningen, September 18,
1950. As a quote from a third-party source (to show that the world
outside of JWs recognized that JWs were persecuted by the Nazis and
then by the Communists), the numbers cited are not strictly
attributable to the Watchtower Society, although they do appear in
line with the ballpark estimates the Watchtower Society itself
maintained at that time for the numbers that died while imprisoned
(2000).
The 1964 figure of 4,000 deaths, which I could only find in that one
place, is double the 'normal' early estimate of about 2000 deaths, and
there's no source or explanation given to it, but as a round number it
is also obviously an estimate. Since it is a numeric figure, and
isn't spelled out (as "four thousand"), perhaps it was a typo that
should have been 2,000 (the standard estimate at that time) that
didn't get caught by the proof-readers, but was only instead caught by
later eagle-eyed JW critics, who pour over everything looking for
inconsistencies.
The estimates of 10,000 imprisoned and 2,000 dead were apparently
still 'official' in 1968 because an article in that year said:
"And the Roman Catholic Hierarchy fought back! As the “sword of the
church,” the
Nazi fuehrer took the lead in a campaign to annihilate Jehovah’s
witnesses in
Catholic-dominated lands. A Catholic priest of Berlin testified to
this in an article in
The German Way of May 29, 1938: “When Adolph Hitler had come to power
and the
German Episcopate repeated their request, Hitler said: ‘These so-
called “Earnest
Bible Students” [Jehovah’s witnesses] are trouble-makers. . . . I do
not tolerate that
the German Catholics be besmirched in such a manner. . . . I dissolve
[Jehovah’s
witnesses] in Germany.’” To which the priest added, “Bravo!” But
Jehovah’s witnesses
were not effectually dissolved in Germany or anywhere else. Hitler
and his partner in
signing the Concordat, Cardinal Pacelli (Pope Pius XII), are now
dead, but the 8,000
Jehovah’s witnesses that survived the Nazi-Catholic Action
concentration camps have
now increased to over 80,000 in Western Germany and Berlin, together
with many
more thousands in East Germany."
That was from The Watchtower March 1, 1968, p. 153. The figure
"8,000 ... that survived the Nazi-Catholic Action concentration camps"
is probably 10,000 - 2,000.
I did also find this, that the estimate of deaths was drastically
'rounded down' only a year later:
"During World War II, it was Christendom’s Nazis, bound by concordat
to the Vatican, that
threw some ten thousand of the Christian witnesses of Jehovah into
concentration camps.
Hundreds of these true Christians were executed because they refused
to support Hitler’s war.
They chose death rather than violate the Bible principle stated at
Isaiah 2:4: “And they will
have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
pruning shears. . . . neither
will they learn war any more.”
This from The Watchtower July 1, 1969, p. 390. Although precise
figures were not given, "hundreds" were said to have been executed,
which corresponds to the more precise figures that are given in
Witness material in recent years.
>
> So there we have it:
>
> 10,000 or 2000 suffered in concentration camps. Take your pick.
The 10,000 was an early estimate of the total number who had suffered
imprisonment by the Nazis either in Gestapo prisons or concentration
camps, and as a ball-park number -- as an order of magnitude -- it was
close to the final figures of 6000+ that were reported by the
Watchtower Society in later publications. It is true, however, that
The Watchtower wasn't rigorous in distinguishing between concentration
camps and other prisons which couldn't have been pleasant, either.
>
> 1000 or 203 were executed. Take your pick
With the benefit of hindsight, what person with compassion wouldn't
gladly "pick" the lower number as a number of real people who were
executed? Also keep in mind that the 203 were part of a larger
number, 635, known to have died while imprisoned.
203 (known in 1979) was not, however, the final figure, Sadly that
figure has crept up. "[U]pwards of 270" is a figure given in the July
1, 2008 Watchtower, p. 22.
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gives a figure of 250
Germans who were executed for refusing to serve in the German
military. See:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005394
The museum gives an estimate of 1400 Witnesses (1000 Germans and 400
non-Germans) who died in concentration camps and prisons, and then
adds that 250 to it, for a total estimate of 1650 dead. It estimates
that 2000-2500 German Witnesses were sent to concentration camps, and
that 700-800 non-German Witnesses were also sent to concentration
camps.
>
> 2000 suffered in concentration camps or 2000 were murdered in concentration
> camps. Take your pick.
Estimates from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, of 1650 dead, are
closer to the early estimate that 2000 were murdered (died or
executed) by the Nazis, although figures now given by the Witnesses
themselves are currently lower. Who wouldn't find some comfort in
lower figures for such mass murder?
>
> 4000 died in concentration camps or 1000 died in both prisons AND concentration
> camps. Take your pick.
If the 4000 was a typo (from the 2000 estimate used in all other
places in writings around that time), although 2000 was higher than
the final number reported by the Watchtower Society (of 600+), 2000 is
not much higher than the 1650 estimated by the US Holocaust Memorial
Museum. A different webpage by the Museum gives figures of 2500 dead
out of 10,000 imprisoned:
http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/books/detail.php?content=2002-05-31
Urundai Kozhambu
Asuhd Onym says...
>
>On Dec 26 2009, 8:48=A0pm, Urundai Kozhambu <Urundai_mem...@newsguy.com>
>wrote:
>> The Watchtower Society prides itself in keeping records of
>> every Jehovah's Witness and what they do.
>
>Do you mean the world headquarters keeps specific, personalized
>records of every Jehovah's Witness and what they do at their world
>headquarters, and not just summary statistics? If so, why do you
>believe that?
The Watchtower society is a world-wide organization. Of course not all
information is stored in one location, which would be pretty close to
impossible. As you know, each Kingdom Hall keeps its own records which can be
made accessible by the world headquarters if need be.
>As far as I know the Watchtower Society doesn't do that today. Simple
>records of each 'publisher' are only kept by the local congregations.
If a Jehovah's Witness was ever foolish enough to violate the society's rules
there most certainly will be a record of it at their congregation which gets
passed on if that Witness moves to another congregation. At least one eye
witness said the world headquarters had records of Jehovah's Witness pedophiles.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw100.html
"Anderson was a researcher at the Watchtower Society in the early 1990s when a
senior official there asked her to look into the church's handling of sexual
abuse cases. What she found, she says, sickened her: hundreds of molestation
cases on record, all kept secret in church files--secret not only from the
outside world, but from the members themselves, the families, the mothers and
fathers and children who trust the church is looking out for them."
>Only aggregated statistics are sent to the Watchtower Society.
Yes, about mundane matters such as attendance and number of hours published.
>That was probably true from the earliest days.
I'm not sure by what you mean by earliest days. Jehovah's Witnesses like to
trace their roots back to Jesus Christ himself but the religion can't be traced
back farther than the American Colonies. There was a fair choice of religious
dissenters in England and some of them found their way to America where ideas
blossomed into the First Great Awakening. The Congregationalist Church being an
outcome of that movement. (That was one of the churches that Charles Russell
belonged to.)
The Second Great Awakening brought forth the Mormons and it influenced the
Baptists and Methodists, among others. It was an attempt to dispel traditional
teachings and return to what they believed were the original beliefs of
Christianity. Actually, this cycle has been going on for centuries. Throughout
Europe you'll find remnants of churches, abbeys, and religious societies that
desired to return to the supposed simpler ways of Christianity. Even the
Knights Templar originally took a vow of poverty.
But now on to the American Restoration Movement which began during the Second
Great Awakening. During this movement some churches wouldn't take on a name,
being convinced they were the true church. Some individuals wouldn't use their
actual names, adopting Biblical names. Some churches wouldn't allow the use of
musical instruments. All of this was an attempt to go back to the primitive
state of Biblical times.
Then came the doomsday date predictions. This wasn't anything new either. Even
Issac Newton had tried to predict the second coming of Christ over 300 years ago
by studying the plans of King Solomon's temple. There were others in England by
the 19th century who speculated also but William Miller was the key one in the
United States. His predictions ended in the Great Disappointment in 1844 when,
of course, nothing happened. The Millerites divided into different groups with
one group declaring that the 1844 date was correct but the attribution was
wrong. That is; 1844 was a heavenly event - not the second coming of Christ.
They became the Second Day Adventists.
This is when Charles Russell comes on the scene. Disappointed at an early age
with the Congregationalist Church, he looked briefly at other religions -
including Eastern religions. Finally, when walking along one day, he heard the
commotion of an Adventist preacher and Russell was then off to the races.
Russell joined with Barbour and predicted the saints would be resurrected in
1878 and again in 1881. 1874 became the invisible presence of Christ with 1914
being the termination. Russell didn't take into account a zero year in his
calculations so his original time of Jerusalem's destruction of 606 became 607.
That meant that 1914 would be shifted to 1915. Either way nothing happened so
the next prediction was 1918. Of course nothing happened so Rutherford changed
it to 1925. Of course nothing happened until 1941 when some JWs believed that
would be the end. WWII ended but next came 1875. Nothing happened then either.
Russell also adopted Pyramidology which was supposed to predict Christ's second
coming. This was not unlike Newton's attempt with the temple measurements.
Doomday predictions always fail but they are highly successful in attracting new
members and retaining existing members. An unusual psychological reaction to
failed predictions is denial.
So, getting back to the earliest days... Russell borrowed virtually all his
beliefs from other rapidly evolving religions that were brought here from
England. There was nothing new about returning to basic Biblical beliefs. That
had been going on for centuries - but not continuously. There were independent
start-ups throughout Europe with the earliest ones being driven so far
underground that the movement simply died out, only to be resurrected again at
another time and at another place.
>> The Watchtower represents itself as the official
>> record of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
>
>I believe that's true in general, but is it really true that every
>number ever published is meant to be understood as an exact number?
>From what you say below, that seems to be your point.
Of course one wouldn't assume 10,000 to be an exact number. That wasn't my
point at all. The point is, they are contradictory.
>> The Watchtower, May 15, 1950, p. 153
>>
>> "Ten thousand ministers were placed in concentration camps. Only eight th=
>ousand
>> were released after World War II; two thousand had been murdered."
>>
>> The Watchtower, July 1, 1979, pp. 7-8
>>
>> "Their activities were banned and 6,019 were arrested, several of them tw=
>o,
>> three or more times. Two thousand suffered in concentration camps. A tota=
Notice that it said "many" of them left. How many articles have you read where
the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that only a very few left? That's a very
important distinction. "Many" is not a small number.
>A side point or two is that the local German branch office had "exact
>control" of the "statistics" that they kept, but that they were only
>"statistics" and were not said to be detailed records of each person
>who was ever a Witness. This report also shows that the world
>headquarters ("The Watchtower Society") relies on reports from the
>foreign branch offices which may at times include estimates.
>
>After skimming comments in The Watchtower from 1950 to the present for
>mentions of 10,000 Nazi-imprisoned Witnesses, it appears that the
>estimate really included all imprisonments, and not just in
>concentration camps; but it's true that sometimes they were only said
>to have been in the concentration camps.
Yes, that is true.
>The 1979 Watchtower that you quote indicates that by that time the
>'real numbers' were known, although later publications indicate that
>those numbers were still not final, no doubt because of the very
>nature and scope of the pogrom against them. In 1993, the book
>Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom was published, which
>gave these figures from 1933 to the end of the war:
>
> 6,262 are arrested, and their combined time of imprisonment totals
>14,332 years;
> 2,074 are sent to concentration camps, where their confinement totals
>8,332 years
>
>This is on p. 720. These same figures are cited on p. 194, followed
>by this statement:
>
> "Secular writers usually opt for higher figures."
>
>>
>> The Watchtower, January 1, 1964, p. 13
>>
>> "They kept preaching even though 10,000 of them were put in concentration=
> camps
>> and over 4,000 died there. The rest nearly starved to death."
>>
>> The Watchtower, December 15, 1950, p. 500
>>
>> "Already during the Hitler regime about 1,000 Jehovah's witnesses were ex=
>ecuted
>> as traitors, because they not only refused to serve in the war but openly
>> opposed Hitler's authority. Another 1,000 of Jehovah's witnesses died in =
>prisons
>> and concentration camps."
>
>For what it's worth, the Dec 15, 1950 article cited above is itself a
>quote attributed to the newspaper Stockholms-Tidningen, September 18,
>1950. As a quote from a third-party source (to show that the world
>outside of JWs recognized that JWs were persecuted by the Nazis and
>then by the Communists), the numbers cited are not strictly
>attributable to the Watchtower Society, although they do appear in
>line with the ballpark estimates the Watchtower Society itself
>maintained at that time for the numbers that died while imprisoned
>(2000).
>
>The 1964 figure of 4,000 deaths, which I could only find in that one
>place, is double the 'normal' early estimate of about 2000 deaths, and
>there's no source or explanation given to it, but as a round number it
>is also obviously an estimate. Since it is a numeric figure, and
>isn't spelled out (as "four thousand"), perhaps it was a typo that
>should have been 2,000 (the standard estimate at that time) that
>didn't get caught by the proof-readers, but was only instead caught by
>later eagle-eyed JW critics, who pour over everything looking for
>inconsistencies.
And when has the Watchtower said that they made a mistake?
>The estimates of 10,000 imprisoned and 2,000 dead were apparently
>still 'official' in 1968 because an article in that year said:
>
> "And the Roman Catholic Hierarchy fought back! As the =93sword of the
>church,=94 the
> Nazi fuehrer took the lead in a campaign to annihilate Jehovah=92s
>witnesses in
> Catholic-dominated lands. A Catholic priest of Berlin testified to
>this in an article in
> The German Way of May 29, 1938: =93When Adolph Hitler had come to power
>and the
> German Episcopate repeated their request, Hitler said: =91These so-
>called =93Earnest
> Bible Students=94 [Jehovah=92s witnesses] are trouble-makers. .=A0.=A0. I =
>do
>not tolerate that
> the German Catholics be besmirched in such a manner. .=A0.=A0. I dissolve
>[Jehovah=92s
> witnesses] in Germany.=92=94 To which the priest added, =93Bravo!=94 But
>Jehovah=92s witnesses
> were not effectually dissolved in Germany or anywhere else. Hitler
>and his partner in
> signing the Concordat, Cardinal Pacelli (Pope Pius XII), are now
>dead, but the 8,000
> Jehovah=92s witnesses that survived the Nazi-Catholic Action
>concentration camps have
> now increased to over 80,000 in Western Germany and Berlin, together
>with many
> more thousands in East Germany."
>
>That was from The Watchtower March 1, 1968, p. 153. The figure
>"8,000 ... that survived the Nazi-Catholic Action concentration camps"
>is probably 10,000 - 2,000.
>
>I did also find this, that the estimate of deaths was drastically
>'rounded down' only a year later:
>
> "During World War II, it was Christendom=92s Nazis, bound by concordat
>to the Vatican, that
> threw some ten thousand of the Christian witnesses of Jehovah into
>concentration camps.
> Hundreds of these true Christians were executed because they refused
>to support Hitler=92s war.
> They chose death rather than violate the Bible principle stated at
>Isaiah 2:4: =93And they will
> have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
>pruning shears. .=A0.=A0. neither
> will they learn war any more.=94
>
>This from The Watchtower July 1, 1969, p. 390. Although precise
>figures were not given, "hundreds" were said to have been executed,
>which corresponds to the more precise figures that are given in
>Witness material in recent years.
>
>>
>> So there we have it:
>>
>> 10,000 or 2000 suffered in concentration camps. =A0Take your pick.
>
>The 10,000 was an early estimate of the total number who had suffered
>imprisonment by the Nazis either in Gestapo prisons or concentration
>camps, and as a ball-park number -- as an order of magnitude -- it was
>close to the final figures of 6000+ that were reported by the
>Watchtower Society in later publications. It is true, however, that
>The Watchtower wasn't rigorous in distinguishing between concentration
>camps and other prisons which couldn't have been pleasant, either.
So, either they made a mistake or they purposely altered the numbers. Either
way, the information was not correct.
>> 1000 or 203 were executed. Take your pick
>
>With the benefit of hindsight, what person with compassion wouldn't
>gladly "pick" the lower number as a number of real people who were
>executed? Also keep in mind that the 203 were part of a larger
>number, 635, known to have died while imprisoned.
>
>203 (known in 1979) was not, however, the final figure, Sadly that
>figure has crept up. "[U]pwards of 270" is a figure given in the July
>1, 2008 Watchtower, p. 22.
>
>The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gives a figure of 250
>Germans who were executed for refusing to serve in the German
>military. See:
>
> http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=3Den&ModuleId=3D10005394
>
>The museum gives an estimate of 1400 Witnesses (1000 Germans and 400
>non-Germans) who died in concentration camps and prisons, and then
>adds that 250 to it, for a total estimate of 1650 dead. It estimates
>that 2000-2500 German Witnesses were sent to concentration camps, and
>that 700-800 non-German Witnesses were also sent to concentration
>camps.
>
>>
>> 2000 suffered in concentration camps or 2000 were murdered in concentrati=
>on
>> camps. =A0Take your pick.
>
>Estimates from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, of 1650 dead, are
>closer to the early estimate that 2000 were murdered (died or
>executed) by the Nazis, although figures now given by the Witnesses
>themselves are currently lower. Who wouldn't find some comfort in
>lower figures for such mass murder?
>
>>
>> 4000 died in concentration camps or 1000 died in both prisons AND concent=
>ration
>> camps. =A0Take your pick.
>
>If the 4000 was a typo (from the 2000 estimate used in all other
>places in writings around that time), although 2000 was higher than
>the final number reported by the Watchtower Society (of 600+), 2000 is
>not much higher than the 1650 estimated by the US Holocaust Memorial
>Museum. A different webpage by the Museum gives figures of 2500 dead
>out of 10,000 imprisoned:
>
> http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/books/detail.php?content=3D2002-05-3=
>1
If I find the time, I may see if I can find out where the Holocaust Memorial
Museum obtained their numbers. It would seem logical that the Society provided
them with numbers but I don't know that. True, it is sad that so many of these
people suffered and died at the hands of a maniac. It's even more sad that they
didn't have to.
Greg Carr
<no...@nospamforme.net> wrote:
>
>"Urundai Kozhambu" <Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:hh6e...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>> 4000 died in concentration camps or 1000 died in both prisons AND
>> concentration
>> camps. Take your pick.
>>
>
>The always come up with an excuse for their blatant contradictions. Most JWs
>on this NG don't even bother to try and defend the WTS contradictions
>anymore.
The JWs suffered under the Nazi regime and refused to join the
military effort. This is in stark contrast to most Protestant and the
RC church at the time. As for the exact numbers I would go with the
most recent quote.
----------------------------------------------------------
The following is my sig file updated as of 8th of Nisan, 5769
We are awaiting the return of our JHVH in the flesh or his Son. His Son Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, was resurrected and walked the earth for awhile then ascended unto Heaven. We await the Third Coming not the Second.
Scottish Quaker Robert Barclay-"The weighty Truths of God were neglected, and, as it were, went into Desuetude. ...
Who will be the last Coalition soldier to be maimed in Iraq?
Canadian troops out of Afghanistan and into Darfur.http://www.amnesty.ca/instantkarma/petition.php
Good luck to anyone trying to learn Hebrew. I am looking for a Hebrew-Gregorian calendar in both Hebrew and English lettering.
I am looking for my missing automobile. Left in the care of Low's Tire (Firestone) on King George Hwy which has since gone out of business. A man who claimed to be a tow truck driver named Jerry (sounded Black) called me and said he had it
but when I called him back he denied it. JVD-298 "89 Plymouth Reliant white with red interior. Devellis in lettering on the rear trunk. Contact me by email or the GRC if you are one of those ppl. Am looking for the address of Dave Reynolds and any info about him. He used to run Low's Tires and since he refuses to answer his email lows...@telus.net I can only assume he is the person who stole my vehicle and the contents in it. I have talked to the new owners and they claim to know nothing.
3P3BK41D9KT921716 is the vin number. Dave Reynolds still has a valid email lows...@telus.net but refuses to return my inquiries.Any info about this thief is appreciated.
I am also looking for various books and CD's that I have discovered missing. All are marked Greg Carr on the inside cover or somewhere in the CD booklet. $5 reward for each CD and for each book. Will pay $200 for info regarding how they disappeared because I honestly don't know.
u8m854p98su072q3l8chiss3t0lcr0�5f...@4ax.com is a post of mine about the liar and police agent Gordon Sauck. It has been censored by Google Groups.
Jonathon Gregory and Craig Wong are thieves and liars and smokers.They live at 344 E.Hastings St. They call and lie to Vancouver Police and the Landlord-Tenancy Branch.
Mike Poirier is HA and works at DPS at 817 Denman St. This company is such a bunch of liars that besides stealing from ppl they claim to be 100% Cdn owned on their signs when in fact they are owned by a rich man in Seattle. You anti-semitic types might like to know the man is a Jew. Poirier is a liar and perjurer and he attacks ppl for no reason and then calls Vancouver Police if he loses.
DPS 817 Denman St
V6G 2L7 Canada
(604) 681-8797
(604) 684-0329 Fax
va...@diamondparking.com
Mailing Address
P.O. Box 3055
Vancouver, BC V6B 3X5 Canada
Canada
Mike Poirier � Regional Vice President of Operations
mike.p...@diamondparking.com
He lives in Burnaby. Caucasian 5"8 in platform shoes.
<a href="http://www.free-iqtest.net" title="Free IQ Test"><img src="http://www.free-iqtest.net/images/badges2/l122.gif" width="200" height="100" alt="Free IQ Test" border="0"></a><br>Free-IQTest.net - <a title="Free IQ Test" href="http://www.free-iqtest.net">Free IQ Test</a><img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://counters.gigya.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEyMjkwNDgxODE1MDAmcHQ9MTIyOTA*ODIxOTA5MyZwPTEwOTE5MSZkPUZJUSZnPTEmdD*mbz1kNjk3NzIxYzk4MTU*ZWVlOWFlZmNjMzFjMzIwZTM2Mg==.gif" />
This is just a line I typed to see if you would read it :-)
Greg Carr
Greg Carr
<Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Why didn't they have to? They could have joined the military and died
on the Eastern front like millions of other Axis soldiers did or died
in Africa, the North Atlantic or the Western or Italian front.
The JW story during WW2 is an inspiration. They didn't collaborate
with an evil regime and many of them survived to continue their work.
Ips-Switch
"Greg Carr" <greg...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:can3k5596d81q6r9i...@4ax.com...
>
> Why didn't they have to? They could have joined the military and died
> on the Eastern front like millions of other Axis soldiers did or died
> in Africa, the North Atlantic or the Western or Italian front.
>
> The JW story during WW2 is an inspiration. They didn't collaborate
> with an evil regime and many of them survived to continue their work.
Are you saying no one should have stopped Hitler? That he should have been
allowed to take over the entire earth?
Florence B. Nitengail
> The JWs suffered under the Nazi regime and refused to join the
> military effort. This is in stark contrast to most Protestant and the
> RC church at the time. As for the exact numbers I would go with the
> most recent quote.
A lot of people suffered under the Nazi regime. Why just point out one small
group?
Urundai Kozhambu
Not every Bible Student was male and of age to participate in the military, were
they? It is the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves who say that these ones could
have signed a document and been released. As far as the military age males is
concerned, how many would have chosen imprisonment in concentration camps over
serving in the military, if they were not Bible Students?
>The JW story during WW2 is an inspiration. They didn't collaborate
>with an evil regime and many of them survived to continue their work.
Who told you that? The Jehovah's Witnesses? Actually, the Society tried
desparatley to collaborate with Hitler but he refused. They told Hitler how
much they despised the Jews, and they blamed The United States and Great Britain
for Germany's problems and said they supported the German National Government's
goals. The following are excerpts taken from correspondence from the Society to
Hitler. If you think these are taken out of context, I'll give you an URL that
shows the complete text.
"In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors
of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has
even taken a position against it."
"The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the
declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very
same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the
German Reich proclaimed..."
"The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it
comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the
national government of the German Reich."
"What is written in our literature - no matter whether from a financial or
political point of view - is only directed towards the suppressors of the German
people and their country, but by no means refers to Germany itself, which is
trying hard to fight against the imposed burdens."
"Finally, the conference of the five thousand delegates expressed that both
Bible Researchers and Watchtower Organization stand for keeping up order and
security within the state, as well as furthering the primary high ideals of the
national government in the field of religion. The afore mentioned, as well as
the enclosed declaration are meant as a brief information directed to both Mr.
Reichskanzler as leader of the people and all the other high government
officials of the German Reich."
"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire.
By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms
a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have
built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the
peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London
and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in
America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: 'The
Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.'"
"The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big
Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the
political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position;"
"Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany,
we stand squarely for such principles..."
"A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that
the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present [German] national
government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our
publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in
due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the
Most High. Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work's being a menace
to the principles of the present [German] government we are the strongest
supporters of such high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who
desire righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from
carrying it on in this land [Germany].
"Now because it appears that Germany may soon be free from oppression and that
the people may be lifted up..."
Urundai Kozhambu
Nitengail says...
"There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg in February
1943. More than half of these prisoners were political prisoners (mainly Soviet,
Czech, Dutch, and German). Almost 800 were German criminals, more than 100 were
homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
If you do a Google search of JWs in concentration camps, about the only
information that pops up is what has been provided by the JWs, and much of that
has been guesswork as we have already seen. Since they have been known to
fabricate information, I have to wonder how much of what they say is true:
"There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg in February
1943. More than half of these prisoners were political prisoners (mainly Soviet,
Czech, Dutch, and German). Almost 800 were German criminals, more than 100 were
homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
"Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish
citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish
Christians and Catholics."
I certainly would never trivialize the sufferings that the JWs went through but
the numbers seem awfully small compared to others. The Watchtower literature
makes it seem as though they were front and center in all that went on, but the
real truth is that they were just a small drop in the bucket. Without the
feverish JW propaganda, very little would be known about them today - other than
just a footnote in a history book.
Ips-Switch
have to send this info to a few JWs I know.
"Urundai Kozhambu" <Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hht3v...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <can3k5596d81q6r9i...@4ax.com>, Greg Carr says...
>>
>>On 2 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800, Urundai Kozhambu
>><Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>If I find the time, I may see if I can find out where the Holocaust
>>>Memorial Museum obtained their numbers. It would seem logical
>>>that the Society provided them with numbers but I don't know that.
>>>True, it is sad that so many of these
>>>people suffered and died at the hands of a maniac. It's even more
>>>sad that they didn't have to.
>>
Brevity snip!
Florence B. Nitengail
> I certainly would never trivialize the sufferings that the JWs went
> through but
> the numbers seem awfully small compared to others. The Watchtower
> literature
> makes it seem as though they were front and center in all that went on,
> but the
> real truth is that they were just a small drop in the bucket. Without the
> feverish JW propaganda, very little would be known about them today -
> other than
> just a footnote in a history book.
>
There you go! The GB is most dishonest group of men you're likely to come
across yet most JWs close their eyes to the truth. Like another poster said,
the JWs here don't even try to defend them anymore.
Greg Carr
Because as a group the JWs made a principled stand which is more than
can be said for the RCC.
Greg Carr
Let those who reject pacifism fight.
Ips-Switch
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:13:10 -0600, "Ips-Switch"
> <Ips-S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Greg Carr" <greg...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>>news:can3k5596d81q6r9i...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Why didn't they have to? They could have joined the military and died
>>> on the Eastern front like millions of other Axis soldiers did or died
>>> in Africa, the North Atlantic or the Western or Italian front.
>>>
>>> The JW story during WW2 is an inspiration. They didn't collaborate
>>> with an evil regime and many of them survived to continue their work.
>>
>>
>>Are you saying no one should have stopped Hitler? That he should have been
>>allowed to take over the entire earth?
> Let those who reject pacifism fight.
How about answering the question? If Hitler took over the world you would be
either never born or already dead.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
Florence B. Nitengail
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:14:53 -0600, "Florence B. Nitengail"
> <no...@nospamforme.net> wrote:
>>
>>A lot of people suffered under the Nazi regime. Why just point out one
>>small
>>group?
> Because as a group the JWs made a principled stand which is more than
> can be said for the RCC.
Apparently they sided with the Nazis. Haven't you read the other posters
message:
>
Urundai Kozhambu
>
>HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, please post where you got this info from. I
>have to send this info to a few JWs I know.
Yup. The Holocaust Memorial Museum's information is coming directly from the
Jehovah's Witnesses. Talk about circle evidence! Jehovah's Witnesses supply
the Holocaust Memorial with their well-edited information and then the Jehovah's
Witnesses boast about how the Holocaust Museum verifies verifies everything they
say.
Just read this for an eye opener:
"James N. Pellechia is Associate Editor of Watch Tower Publications at the
international offices of the Watch Tower Society; he is the producer of feature
and documentary films, including the award winning film Jehovah's Witnesses
Stand Firm Against Nazi Assault; lecturer on modern history of Jehovah's
Witnesses. Pellechia has presented at international academic conferences,
university seminars and research institutions, including the United States
Holocaust Memorial Museum. His publications include The Spirit and the
Sword--Jehovah's Witnesses Expose the Third Reich."
This is a laugh... A Jehovah's Witness presenting an accurate, balanced,
historic history of the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Go to this site:
http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/information/citation.php
Look at the left column under the heading "Inside Research" and click on
"Catalog Research."
Click on the "Author" tab under "Basic Search."
Where it says "Last Name" type in "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" and then
click on "Search."
Click where it says "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York (3).
There you'll find these references used at the Holocaust Museum:
"Jehovah's Witnesses : proclaimers of God's kingdom. 1993"
"Purple triangles [videorecording] : the true story of a German family / a
Starlock Pictures Production for TVS. 1991"
"Watchtower reprints of Holocaust / Watchtower. 1994"
Now page back to the author search page again and this time type in "Watch Tower
Bible and Tract Society." Note that this time the word Watchtower is typed in
two words, Watch Tower. That will give you more references.
There you will find three items to click on:
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (2 items)
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (4 items)
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of New York (3 items)
After clicking on all those you will find these references used by the Holocaust
Museum:
"Jehovah's Witnesses in the divine purpose. 1982"
"'Seid fröhlich, ihr Nationen' / [Herausgeber, Vereinigung Jehovas Zeugen
der Schweiz]. 1946"
"Jehovah's Witnesses courageous in the face of Nazi peril [electronic
resource]."
"Jehovah's Witnesses stand firm against Nazi assault [videorecording] /
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. 1996"
"Spirit and the sword : Jehovah's Witnesses expose the Third Reich / by James N.
Pellechia. 1997"
"Spirit and the sword : Jehovah's Witnesses expose the Third Reich / by James N.
Pellechia. 1995"
"Jehovah's Witnesses : proclaimers of God's kingdom. 1993"
"Purple triangles [videorecording] : the true story of a German family / a
Starlock Pictures Production for TVS. 1991"
"Watchtower reprints of Holocaust / Watchtower. 1994"
Ips-Switch
"Urundai Kozhambu" <Urundai...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hi2e8...@drn.newsguy.com...
Urundai Kozhambu
Nitengail says...
>
>
There's nothing left to defend. Historical facts show that Jehovah's Witnesses
are an off shoot of the Adventists, which were an off shoot of the Millerites.
William Miller was a Baptist and the Baptists came from the Anabaptists.
Basically, the JW religion came from the religion that it condemns.
Very few JW doctoines are orininal.
Asuhd Onym
wrote:
> In article <4b428...@news.x-privat.org>, Ips-Switch says...
>
>
>
> >HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, please post where you got this info from. I
> >have to send this info to a few JWs I know.
>
> Yup. The Holocaust Memorial Museum's information is coming directly from the
> Jehovah's Witnesses. Talk about circle evidence! Jehovah's Witnesses supply
> the Holocaust Memorial with their well-edited information and then the Jehovah's
> Witnesses boast about how the Holocaust Museum verifies verifies everything they
> say.
Some of the Museum's information is coming directly from the
Witnesses. It would be very suspicious if none of their information
came from the Witnesses, and it only makes sense that the Witnesses
would be a primary source. However, the Museum isn't getting its
information about the Witnesses from only Witness sources. I know
this because I wrote to them and asked them this very question,
whether they were only getting their Witness-related information from
the Witnesses. It took them a while to reply, but here's what they
said:
> Our three main sources for the information relating to the Jehovah's Witnesses that we offer on the web are the following: :
>
> Detlef Garbe, Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in The Third Reich (Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin Press, 2008)
>
> M. James Penton, Jehovah's Witnesses and The Third Reich: Sectarian Politics Under Persecution (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 2004)
>
> William Meinecke, Nazi Ideology and the Holocaust (Washington, D.C.: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2007).
>
> Another useful source we recommend is:
>
> Hans Hesse, ed., Persecution and Resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses During the Nazi Regime, 1933 - 1945 (Bremen: Edition Temmen, 2001).
As far as I can tell, neither Garbe, Meinecke, nor Hesse are or ever
were Witnesses. On the other hand, Penton is an EX-WITNESS who is
well known for his critical views of the Witnesses.
>
> Just read this for an eye opener:
>
> "James N. Pellechia is Associate Editor of Watch Tower Publications at the
> international offices of the Watch Tower Society; he is the producer of feature
> and documentary films, including the award winning film Jehovah's Witnesses
> Stand Firm Against Nazi Assault; lecturer on modern history of Jehovah's
> Witnesses. Pellechia has presented at international academic conferences,
> university seminars and research institutions, including the United States
> Holocaust Memorial Museum. His publications include The Spirit and the
> Sword--Jehovah's Witnesses Expose the Third Reich."
>
> This is a laugh... A Jehovah's Witness presenting an accurate, balanced,
> historic history of the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Please see the references that the Museum actually gave as their 'main
sources.' As mentioned, one of them is an ex-Witness who is well
known for his critical (=negative) view of them, and the other three
are not Witnesses.
It only makes sense that the Museum would do a thorough job in its
research and include Witness sources. Your research into their
sources only proves what anyone would expect, that they used Witness-
sources. Your research, however, falls short on what else they used
as source material. The Museum sent me this link:
http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/bibliography/?lang=en&content=jehovah
Although it includes the Witness-originated material you cite, it also
includes non-Witness-originated material. Two of their sources are ex-
Witnesses: Penton and J. Bergman. Bergman is listed under their
sources for "The Nazi Period."
Asuhd Onym
wrote:
> In article <4b420768$0$2427$834e4...@reader.greatnowhere.com>, Florence B.
> Nitengail says...
>
>
>
> >"Greg Carr" <gregpc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >news:fim3k513kkr8ck84p...@4ax.com...
> >> The JWs suffered under the Nazi regime and refused to join the
> >> military effort. This is in stark contrast to most Protestant and the
> >> RC church at the time. As for the exact numbers I would go with the
> >> most recent quote.
>
> >A lot of people suffered under the Nazi regime. Why just point out one small
> >group?
>
> "There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg in February
> 1943. More than half of these prisoners were political prisoners (mainly Soviet,
> Czech, Dutch, and German). Almost 800 were German criminals, more than 100 were
> homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
>
> If you do a Google search of JWs in concentration camps, about the only
> information that pops up is what has been provided by the JWs, and much of that
> has been guesswork as we have already seen. Since they have been known to
> fabricate information, I have to wonder how much of what they say is true:
People critical of JWs have also been known to fabricate or distort
information too.
>
> "There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg in February
> 1943. More than half of these prisoners were political prisoners (mainly Soviet,
> Czech, Dutch, and German). Almost 800 were German criminals, more than 100 were
> homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
An aspect to accurate research is to present the broad picture of what
happened, and not just a snap-shot. For instance, this item above,
that there were only 7 JWs out of 4,000 prisoners in one camp in Feb
1942, might suggest that at all times JWs were only a small percentage
of the prisoners in all the camps at all times. But according to this
researcher:
in Moringen, a women's concentration camp, in 1937, JWs were 5 of 94
total prisoners in Jan 1937, and 249 of 280 total prisoners in Dec
1937. (see p.43). In some camps there were hundreds of JWs
imprisoned at the same time.
>
> "Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish
> citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish
> Christians and Catholics."
>
> I certainly would never trivialize the sufferings that the JWs went through but
> the numbers seem awfully small compared to others.
The JWs were small in numbers compared to rest of the population, but
in some camps (see above) they made up a disproportionate amount of
the prisoner population.
> The Watchtower literature
> makes it seem as though they were front and center in all that went on, but the
> real truth is that they were just a small drop in the bucket.
Watchtower literature appropriately gives voice to the suffering of
the Witnesses that has been largely overlooked or ignored by secular
Holocaust historians (at least until recently). For being such a
'drop in the bucket' they experienced intense cruelty (I say this
without intent to diminish the cruelties inflicted upon others) that
was at times beyond that which was inflicted upon many other groups.
> Without the
> feverish JW propaganda, very little would be known about them today - other than
> just a footnote in a history book.
"Feverish" seems more aptly to apply to efforts by JW critics to under-
play and thus undermine the truth that JWs did suffer immensely in
proportion to their own numbers and out of proportion to their numbers
in the general population. Calling the efforts by JWs to document
their suffering "feverish JW propaganda" sounds like an effort to
silence their voice, and thus continue to carry out the ideals of the
Nazi regime to eliminate their voice.
Annointed Remnant
Asuhd Onym says...
>
>On Jan 4, 2:52=A0pm, Urundai Kozhambu <Urundai_mem...@newsguy.com>
>wrote:
>> In article <4b420768$0$2427$834e4...@reader.greatnowhere.com>, Florence B=
>.
>> Nitengail says...
>>
>>
>>
>> >"Greg Carr" <gregpc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>> >news:fim3k513kkr8ck84p...@4ax.com...
>> >> The JWs suffered under the Nazi regime and refused to join the
>> >> military effort. This is in stark contrast to most Protestant and the
>> >> RC church at the time. As for the exact numbers I would go with the
>> >> most recent quote.
>>
>> >A lot of people suffered under the Nazi regime. Why just point out
>> >one small group?
>>
>> "There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg
>> in February 1943. More than half of these prisoners were
>> political prisoners (mainly Soviet, Czech, Dutch, and German).
>> homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
>>
>> If you do a Google search of JWs in concentration camps, about the
>> only information that pops up is what has been provided by the
>> JWs, and much of that has been guesswork as we have already
>> seen. Since they have been known to fabricate information,
>> I have to wonder how much of what they say is true:
>
>People critical of JWs have also been known to fabricate or distort
>information too.
That's true and I'm pleased to see that you're honest enough to use the words
"also" and "too".
What I wrote is true. A Google search does not reveal much about JWs. If you
feel Google is not giving you fair play, maybe you should write to them and have
them alter the history records.
>> "There were over 4,000 prisoners in the main camp of Flossenburg
>> in February 1943. More than half of these prisoners were
>> political prisoners (mainly Soviet, Czech, Dutch, and German).
>> Almost 800 were German criminals, more than were
>> homosexuals, and 7 were Jehovah's Witnesses."
>
>An aspect to accurate research is to present the broad picture of what
>happened, and not just a snap-shot. For instance, this item above,
>that there were only 7 JWs out of 4,000 prisoners in one camp in Feb
>1942, might suggest that at all times JWs were only a small percentage
>of the prisoners in all the camps at all times. But according to this
>researcher:
>
>=20
>http://books.google.com/books?id=3DmcxD0qxHMO0C&printsec=3Dfrontcover&dq=3D=
>%22Hans+Hesse%22+persecution+jehovah%27s+witnesses&source=3Dbl&ots=3D0G0rZb=
>JtHo&sig=3Dn6jcLwGSA1i52Q7Rd12SdwiljXM&hl=3Den&ei=3Dpc5dS-SbC5Pi8QaXgrXJCw&=
>sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresult&resnum=3D2&ved=3D0CA4Q6AEwAQ#v=3Donepag=
>e&q=3D&f=3Dfalse
>
>in Moringen, a women's concentration camp, in 1937, JWs were 5 of 94
>total prisoners in Jan 1937, and 249 of 280 total prisoners in Dec
>1937. (see p.43). In some camps there were hundreds of JWs
>imprisoned at the same time.
And your advice also applies to your examples as well. Classes of individuals
were often grouped together in concentration camps, so it would not be uncommon
for many JWs to be corralled into a few camps, while not many at all in others.
Most historians agree that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Would
you agree that these deaths were disproportionate to the general population? Do
you believe that these deaths have less significance that the JW's deaths?
>> "Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million
>> were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another
>> three million were Polish
>> Christians and Catholics."
>>
>> I certainly would never trivialize the sufferings that the JWs
>> went through but
>> the numbers seem awfully small compared to others.
>
>The JWs were small in numbers compared to rest of the population, but
>in some camps (see above) they made up a disproportionate amount of
>the prisoner population.
Also, see above. Keeping them concentrated in a few camps allowed more control.
You cannot extrapolate these few examples any more than I can with other few
examples.
>> The Watchtower literature
>> makes it seem as though they were front and center in all that
>> went on, but the
>> real truth is that they were just a small drop in the bucket.
>
>Watchtower literature appropriately gives voice to the suffering of
>the Witnesses that has been largely overlooked or ignored by secular
>Holocaust historians (at least until recently). For being such a
>'drop in the bucket' they experienced intense cruelty (I say this
>without intent to diminish the cruelties inflicted upon others) that
>was at times beyond that which was inflicted upon many other groups.
Would you like to cite evidence of this - other than from Watchtower literature?
>> Without the feverish JW propaganda, very little would be known
>> about them today - other than
>> just a footnote in a history book.
>
>"Feverish" seems more aptly to apply to efforts by JW critics to under-
>play and thus undermine the truth that JWs did suffer immensely in
>proportion to their own numbers and out of proportion to their numbers
>in the general population. Calling the efforts by JWs to document
>their suffering "feverish JW propaganda" sounds like an effort to
>silence their voice, and thus continue to carry out the ideals of the
>Nazi regime to eliminate their voice.
That is nonsense. While I have no compassion whatsoever for the WTBTS, I do
feel sadly for those who died because the cult. They died for nothing yet the
cult leaders are propagandizing their examples to promulgate their beliefs.
Greg Carr
<Annointe...@newsguy.com> wrote:
They committed no war crimes either and did nothing to help a
murderous regime which is more than can be said for the majority of
the Protestant church and the RC church and the atheists. They died
rather than swear allegiance to Adolph Hitler a maniacal madman and
evil to the core. The current Pope swore an allegiance to this madman
and helped shoot down Allied aircrews during the war.