The Islamic problem
Aron
Below is an article written by Shiekh Omar Bakri Muhammed, the leader of
Al-Muhajiroun (the Emigrants) in London. It proves that the aims of Islam
are very straightforward. To rule by persuasion or terrorism. Used
extensively, are quotes from the Koran and the saying of Islam's founder,
Muhammed. The article is taken from AL-Muhajiroun's web-site at
http://members.tripod.com/~Irfat/content.htm It criticises freedom,
democracy, capitalism and communism and advocates the Shari'ah Laws of Islam
which allow crucifixtion, decapitation, the hacking of limbs, execution
without trial, no free speech, the oppression of women and complete
subservience to the laws and the Kaliphs, who govern in the name of Allah.
The article quotes it's religious scripture, so it is inexcusable by any
Muslim to claim that the below is not Islam. It is Islam. It proves that
Islam, like Christianity/Catholicism and the old laws of the Torah, are
unadaptable to an ever-modernising world. It proves that if the belief in
such things continue, we will either have terrorism and war for much time to
come, or we will have to deport all people who believe in such things to a
nations of their own which will be completely segregated from the modern
world. The below states that the Shari'ah Laws are ultimate and there is no
other system for a Muslim to live under. Why does Omar Bakri Muhammed come
to England then? Why doesn't he and everyone who believes in the word of
Islam live in their own country, instead of coming here and profiting from
capitalism while criticising it and the people who live under it. Why
threaten us with acts of terrorism? Because they claim we oppress them?
Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states would be nothing today if it were not for
the west. We told them they have oil (in fact, we gave them the oil to shut
them up for a while. Oil is much more abundant) They would be all under
dictatorship regimes based on Shari'ah Laws and if it were not for the
existence of Israel, Palestine too would be the same.
The Islamic Views About Freedom
By Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed (the man who sent Britons to be trained as
terrorists in Yemen)
On the basis of this, it is man then who lays down his system of life. This
ideology is infidel in nature and contradicts Islam because Allah is the Law
maker and He is the only One Who lays down the system for man and makes the
state a part of the laws of Islam. He makes it imperative that all matters
in life be solved by Islamic laws which he revealed. Therefore, it is
prohibited for Muslims to accept the Capitalist ideology or to accept from
its ideas and systems because it is an infidel ideology and its ideas are
infidel ideas and its systems are infidel systems and they contradict Islam.
1. Islam's Opinion on ' Rights '
One of the most important ideas in the Capitalist ideology is the necessity
to safeguard the ' rights' (freedoms) of man. These are: freedom of belief,
freedom in opinion, freedom to possess, and personal freedom. The freedom to
possess resulted in the economic capitalist system based on profit, which
led to immense hoarding and which pushed the Western infidel nations to
colonise people and loot their riches.
The four common ' freedoms ' are in conflict with the laws of Islam. The
Muslim is not free in the matter of his belief because if he leaves Islam,
he is asked to return. If he does not, his punishment is death. The Prophet
( SAW ) said: " Whosoever changes his religion, kill him." The Muslim is not
free in his opinion. His opinion is the opinion of Islam, and it is not
allowed for a Muslim to have an opinion other than that of Islam.
The Muslim is not free to possess and it is not correct for him to possess
except as is laid down in the Islamic law. He is not free to possess what he
likes or by the way he likes. He is restricted by the Islamic causes of
possession and prohibited to possess by causes other than these. He cannot
possess through ' interest' or ' hoarding' or the sale of wine or pig or
similar means which are prohibited.
Personal freedom does not exist in Islam because a Muslim is not free in
personal affairs, but restricted by the Islamic Law. If he does not say
prayers or fast, for example, he must be punished. If he drinks wine or
commits adultery, he is punished. If a woman comes out naked or indecently,
she is punished. The ' freedoms ' as defined in the Western Capitalist
System simply do not exist in Islam and they are in absolute conflict with
the Laws of Islam. One of the most important ideas of the Capitalist
ideology is Democracy.
2. Islam's opinion on Democracy.
Democracy is the rule of people, for the people, and by the people. The
basis of the democratic system is that people possess the right to rule and
decide, and to implement. They have the right to act on their decision
because they are their own masters and no one has any control over them.
They are the law makers. They make the law they want and cancel the law they
want to cancel, and because all people cannot rule at the same time, they
elect representatives to make laws on their behalf, The people possess the
rule and the implementation. Since it is impossible for them to rule
directly, they elect rulers to rule in their place by the law which people
have made. Hence the people are the source of power in the Western
Capitalist system. They are the rulers and the lawmakers.
This is the democratic system and it is an infidel system because it is laid
down by man and it is not Shari'ah Laws. Therefore, to rule by it is to rule
by infidelity and to call towards it is to call towards an infidel system.
Therefore, to call towrds it is prohibited and to take from it is prohibited
under all conditions.
This democratic system is against the laws of Islam because Muslims are
ordered to perform their actions by the laws of Islam. A Muslim is Allah's
slave. He performs according to Allah's injunctions what he has ordered and
refrains from what He has prohibited. The Ummah cannot move according to its
desire because it does not possess that power. The motivating force is the
Shari'ah because it is the ruler. The Ummah, therefore, does not possess the
right to legislate because Allah is the Lawmaker. If the whole Ummah decides
to allow what Allah has prohibited like ' interest ' or ' hoarding ' or '
adultery ' or ' drinking of wine ', its decision will be weightless because
it is in conflict with the laws of Islam. If it insists on this, it will be
fought against. However, Allah has given the rule and implementation to the
Ummah and therefore given it the right to elect and put up a ruler, so that
he rules and implements in its place. Allah has ordained the way this ruler
is to be selected through oath ( bay'aa ) and with this it is easy to
realise the difference between ruler and power. The power is from the
Shari'ah and the rule is for the Ummah.
Communism: is a material ideology which is based upon the principles of
matter and believes that matter is absolute; i.e. there is nothing before it
and nothing after; that it was not created by a creator; that there does not
exist a creator as there does not exist the Last Day. It considers religion
as an opium for the masses.
It is a material ideology based on the theory of material progress and
historical progress. The matter is the base of everything and things happen
because of it and are produced by its progress; the system is acquired by
means of production and the systems progress as the means of production
progress. In it the society is a general collection consisting of the earth,
the means of production, nature and man. All are one thing, i.e. matter, and
nature progresses and its contents (i.e. Man ) progress with it and hence
society progresses.
Therefore, in Communism the society is controlled by progress and when the
society progresses, the man progresses with it and he moves with the society
in a way that the tooth moves with the cog. Communism prohibits possession
of the means of production as personal possessions and considers them state
property.
The Communist ideology is an infidel ideology and its ideas and systems are
infidel ideas and systems. It is in conflict with Islam totally and in
principle in its details and principles.
Islam clearly explained and proved that matter is created and is not
absolute. It will be destroyed; that man is created by One Creator, that the
universe and what is in it are all created by One Creator; that the system
is from Allah and not from the progress of matter or means of production or
from man. It also explained that society is composed of man, ideas, emotions
and systems, and what decides the ( nature of ) societies is the system
implemented in the society. The society that implements Islam will be an
Islamic society whatever the means of production prevalent in it. Similarly,
the society where capitalism is implemented is a capitalist society and a
society where communism is implemented is a communist society although the
means of production in it are the same as those in a capitalist society.
3. Culture and Civilisation.
Culture is a collection of concepts about life;
Civilisation is the material shapes that are used in matters of life.
Culture is therefore, specific according to one's viewpoint of life.
Therefore, Islamic Culture is not equivalent to Western culture or Communist
culture since every one of these cultures has a different specific viewpoint
with respect to life. Therefore, it is prohibited for the Muslims to take
anything from Western or Communist Culture because of their contradiction
with Islam.
As far as civilisation is concerned, if it is an outcome of culture like
paintings of living things and statues, it is considered specific to that
culture and it is not allowed to be acquired because Islamic culture
prohibits paintings and making of statues of living beings and prohibits
their collection. On the other hand, Western culture and Communist culture
encourages it and does not prohibit it, if it is part of the civilisation
which evolves from science and technological progress like the means of
communication such as aeroplanes, ships, cars and like means of production
and agriculture and like advanced machines of war, and similarly all that
the human mind has produced as inventions and discoveries as a result of
scientific progress and technological advancement like computers etc; all
these structures are international structures and they are for the whole
world and are not specific to any culture or to any nation or to any
religion, in fact they are for all mankind because they do not depend on
culture nor on the point of view of life. Therefore, they can be acquired
since they do not go against the laws of Islam; rather it is necessary to
acquire them.
4. The Laws and Rules in the Islamic System of Government.
Islamic Rule:
Islam has defined the Islamic rule according to that which Allah has
revealed. Allah says: " And rule them with what Allah has revealed and do
not follow their whims and desires and be careful lest they lead you away
from some of what Allah has revealed unto you". And He ( SWT ) says: "And
rule them according to what Allah has revealed and do not follow their
desires away from of what has come to you from the Truth" (Allah). i.e.
Every ruler that is ruling according to what Allah has revealed i.e. rule
according to the Book and the Sunnah is ruling by lawful Islamic rule.
The Structure of the Islamic System of Government:
Islam has determined the structure of the Islamic government to be the
system of Khilafah and it is the only system for the rule of the Islamic
State. Muslim narrates from Abu Hazim that he said: " I was with Abu Huraira
for five years and I heard him narrate from the Prophet ( SAW ) that he
said:"The Prophets used to rule Bani Isreal; whenever a Prophet died another
suceeded him; however, there will be no more Prophets after me; instead
there will be Khalifs and they will number many ."
This tradition is a clear statement of the fact that the Islamic structure
of governement after the Prophet ( SAW ) is the Khilafah, or Imamat and that
it is the only system of Government in Islam, The Prophet (saw) also said:
"After me there will be leaders ( Imams ), and If two Khalifs are put up...
", and other traditions, all giving the evidence that the Islamic Khilfah is
the only system of government in Islam.
The Method of Election of the Khalif.
Islam has determined the way in which the Khalif is elected to be by oath
Bayaa ). Nafay narrates from Ibn Umar that he said: "I heard the Prophet
SAW ) of Allah saying: " He who dies and does not have the oath of
allegiance around his neck, surely dies the death of an infidel )". Obada
bin Samit says : "We took an oath on the Prophet that we will obey him and
listen to him in good or bad times and we will not wrestle the rule from
those who have the right to it and that we will stand and say the truth
wherever we are and will not be afraid of anyone's condemnation in order to
please Allah ". And the tradition that "If an oath is taken for two
Khalif's, kill the second one". The traditions clearly state that the method
of electing a Khailf is by oath , and the companions agreed on this matter.
Therefore, every rule and power that is based on the system of Khilafah and
the election of the Khalif takes place by the way of oath and rule by what
Allah has revealed, i.e. by the Qur'an and Sunnah, is Islamic Shari'ah rule,
and Islamic Shari'ah government. Any Khalif who Muslims have chosen and for
who they have taken oath of their own free will is considered a lawful
Khalif according to Shari'ah and it is necessary to obey him. Therefore, the
system of Kingship is not an Islamic system and Islam does not approve of it
whether the king is a figurehead who does not rule, as in the case of
Britain and Spain, or the king is the head and the actual ruler, as is the
case of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. This is because the Khalif does not acquire
his rank hereditarily like the kings do, instead the Muslim people select
him under oath and the hereditary system is not allowed in Islam since the
Khalif does not have more privilages than any other Muslim citizen since he
is not above the law like the kings who cannot be tried, rather he is
subservient to the Laws of Allah and is prone to trial on every act he
committs.
Similarly, the peoples system is not an Islamic system and Islam does not
approve of it wheher it is presidential in nature, as in the case of the
U.S.A. or if is parliamentary as is found in Germany, because the peoples
system in both these shapes is based on the democratic system which gives
the power to the masses, in contrast to the system of Khilafah which is
based on the system of Islam where the power is in the hands of the Shari'ah
(i.e. Islamic Law ) and therefore, the Ummah does not have the power to
remove the Khalif, although it has the power to choose him and put him to
task. Only the Islamic order ( or Law ) can remove the Khalif in case he
works against the law in such a way that it becomes necessary to remove him.
The power to decide whether the Khalif has worked against the Law such that
he must be removed rests with the Court of Injustices ( Mahkumat - al -
mudhalim ) and this court can remove him from the seat of Khalif, as Allah
says: "O ye who believe! Follow Allah and follow the Prophet and the rulers
from amongst you, and if you disagree on a matter then return it ( for
judgement ) to Allah and the Prophet if you truly believe in Allah and the
Last Day ".
This means that they must return over the matter to the Law of Allah and the
Law of the Prophet (SAW) and the Court of Injustices represents the law of
Allah and the law of the Prophet ( SAW ). The Khalif is not elected for a
limited term; the only limitation to his rule is subject to implementation
of Islam. If he does not implement Islam, he will be removed even if it is
after only one month of his election. In contrast the president of the
republic is elected for a limited term. In the paliamentry system there is
the prime minister with the president, and the president is only a
figurehead without power, and the real power rests with the prime minister.
The Khalif is the real ruler and he rules and implements his orders directly
and he has no ministers having the power to rule instead. In the
presidential system, although the president himself is the actual ruler, he
does have with him ministers who have powers to rule and he is their ruler
and his rank is that of the president of the government. This is in
contradiction to the system of Khilafah where the Khalif rules directly, and
he has with him helpers. These helpers do not have the powers of ministers
as in the democratic republican system. When the Khalif becomes the ruler he
is ruler in the capacity of the Chief of State and not the Chief of the
implementing body. Therefore, there exists a great difference between the
republican and Khilafah systems and therefore it is absolutely not allowed
to call for a republican state. The Islamic Republic as it is also not
allowed to say that the system of government in Islam is "republican" or
that Islam is a "republican system" because of the complete contradiction
between Islam and the republican system.
The Oneness of the State of Khilafah State
The system of government in Islam, which is the system of Khilafah is a
single system of one state and not a federal system. The Muslims all over
the world are not allowed to be more than one state nor to have more than
one Khalif who rules them by the Book of Allah, and the Traditions of the
Prophet ( SAW ) i.e. implementing the Islamic Law because the Legal reason
(Al-I'llah Al-Shariyyah) has come with this and prohibited other systems as
is narrated by Abdullah bin Amir bin Alaas, who says that he heard the
Prophet of Allah (saw) saying: " He who took oath for an Imam and gave him
the clasp of his hand and the fruit of his heart ( i.e.followed him
sincerely ) then must follow him and if another person intends to wrest
power from this Imam, they should kill that person". And as narrated by Abi
Saeed Alkhudri, that the Prophet of Allah (saw) says : "If an oath is taken
for two Khalifs, kill the second of the two". And as narrated by Arfaja that
he heared the Prophet of Allah (saw) saying: "He who comes to you to break
your unity when you are united, or to disperse your group, kill him ".
Maria
<ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> It proves that if the belief in
>such things continue, we will either have terrorism and war for much time to
>come, or we will have to deport all people who believe in such things to a
>nations of their own which will be completely segregated from the modern
>world.
A free society is such a paradox isn't it?
Organisations such as this that are against such a society, and yet
flourish within it thanks to the atmosphere of free speech, thought
and religion, and as a result, those who fight to retain such a free
society, seek to criminalise or deport those who dissent!
Which do you prefer? A free society where people can think and say and
worship in any way that they like without fear of repression, or a
society like some Islamic ones where to dissent is to commit a crime
against God, and might result in your criminalisation, deportation or
perhaps murder?
Aron
he says? If so, get off your anglo-american invented computer, and live
under the Shariah Law indicted by the Koran. You are not supposed to partake
of any of the produce of the 'infidel'.
CROMWELL
are we
Maria wrote in message <369ce03b...@news.clara.net>...
>>such things continue, we will either have terrorism and war for much time
to
>>come, or we will have to deport all people who believe in such things to a
>>nations of their own which will be completely segregated from the modern
>>world.
>
Maria
<ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Maria, answer the muslims words not mine.
Why? I was talking to you, not them!
I was passing comment on the difficulties sometimes posed by a free
society. Those comments stemmed from consideration of your assertion
that "It proves that if the belief in such things continue, we will
either have terrorism and war for much time to come, or we will have
to deport all people who believe in such things to a nations of their
own which will be completely segregated from the modern world. "
You gave two options there. I was questioning one of them.
Should people be deported just because of what they say? If we do
that, what makes us any different from them?
How much freedom are you prepared to sacrifice in order to cleanse
this country of potential terrorists who AIUI have not actually broken
any laws?
> Or is it because you support what
>he says?
Which bit?
In what way could I 'support' it? I am not a Muslim. It is not my
belief system (although there are some aspects of it that I consider
to be a good idea) and therefore I cannot support it.
My one comment would be that I consider fundamentalists in general to
be a nuisance and possibly a threat to freedom of society, but that
concern is not confined to Islamic fundamentalists. The liberalisation
of societies and the threat that it poses to conservative values has
the natural consequence of causing a relgious backlash from time to
time.
>If so, get off your anglo-american invented computer, and live
>under the Shariah Law indicted by the Koran.
1) What difference would it make, if I am indeed living in a country
where freedom of speech and religion is not allowed?
I take it you are in support of the recent legislation that can
criminalise anyone suspected of belonging to a proscribed
organisation?
How far would you like to take the principle?
2) The Qur'an is not a comprehensive legal code. Apprently only 80
verses refer to purely legal matters, and the Qur'an modified (and
lessened the harshness of) customary Arab law.
Its influence in the practical aspects of life has been based on
various jurists interpretations of the words of the Qur'an, and in
that respect, it is no different from any other religion or law for
that matter. It has been developed over the centuries and modernised
and reformed to some degree.
Shari'ah has been abandoned in Turkey. It is obviously not an
essential feature of a Muslim society since other Muslim countries
have lived under other expressions of Islamic law, i.e. Hanafi law,
Maliki law, Shafi'i law, Hanbali law, Shi'i law and Ibadi law.
Your critiscisms of Shari'ah indicate that you consider this to be the
one and only manifestation of Islam; this is not so. The Shari'ah
doctrine has never been the complete and authoritative expression of
law that you make it out to be, and I for one have no wish to demonise
an entire religion which comprises millions of people who live
peacefully together and with the world as well as some fundamentalist
nutters.
Your Muslims-in-isolation idea is dangerous, for it seeks to tar
everyone with the same brush and to categorise all followers of this
extremely complex religion under the same umbrella of 'fundamentalist
nutter' irrespective of the fact that they don't all follow the same
interpretation of the Islamic doctrine, and many of them do not live
under Shari'ah Law.
I can never tell whether you are just demonstrating pure bigotry, or a
genuine lack of understanding of Islam.
I don't claim to understand it, but I can see that although all roads
lead to Allah, they don't all take the same route.
> You are not supposed to partake
>of any of the produce of the 'infidel'.
Did you know that 'Infidel' was used to mean a non-Christian?
I gather it was used during the Crusades, when Christians deemed such
wars to be Holy Wars and therefore pleasing to God.
Maria
<FEN...@MGIFIELD.FREESERVE.NET> wrote:
>You must have some power supply on that stall of yours Not a BNFL mole
>are we
I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Sorry.
(Is there something about Freeserve accounts or is it just me?)
Sub-Zero
find out in time...
Mr. Zenn
a. people who twist Islam to tangenital agendas
b. other people who misinterpret this as true Islam
Mr. Zenn
Aron
allows these morons to come here, take money from the security and health
services (under more than one single name) and then turn their backs to us
and criticise us. If they dont like it, they should get the fuck out. Thats
the bottom line.
Aron
Mr. Zenn <jsar...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:369E3FCF...@ucdavis.edu...
>The 'Islamic Problem' is basically 2 things:
>
>a. people who twist Islam to tangenital agendas
>b. other people who misinterpret this as true Islam
you read the scripture and you will find that they inherit their terrorism
from the scripture. How can so many misinterpret their scripture when they
read it every day and pray five times a day?
Paul Leake
And I don't suppose they pay taxes do they?
Cheers
Paul Leake
Paul Leake
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Aron wrote:
Well how can so many people who read the Bible x times a day misinterpret
it, or Marx or even Shakespeare. Misinterpretations happen. That and I
believe Zenn's b) was referring to non-Muslims
Cheers,
Paul Leake
Mr. Zenn
Paul Leake wrote:
that would be correct...but now that its been mentioned, it could also apply to
the fundies.
Mr. Zenn
>
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Leake
Mr. Zenn
Aron wrote:
> you're boring.
Who are you referring to?
> You shouldnt try to escape the hard facts that our society
> allows these morons to come here,
I am assuming you are talking about the UK? I am reading this from the
alt.religion.islam NG, not the uk.politics.misc or the nostradamus NGs, so I
don't see what you're getetingat.
> take money from the security and health
> services (under more than one single name) and then turn their backs to us
> and criticise us.
Pisser 'ennit? Not like the western states didn't fuvk with their people and
resources, set up arbitrary borders, and generally muck up and threaten them
into the fucked mess that many of those states are in...and you wonder why they
leave? To live in a better standard; that does not however, disallow for the
memeory of who helped put them in the position of them having to leave in the
1st place. [the above is horibly generalized, but so was his..so there ;)]
> If they dont like it, they should get the fuck out. Thats
> the bottom line.
Are you sure you're not a yank?
Mr. Zenn
Aron
>Are you sure you're not a yank?
>
>Mr. Zenn
I'm not, but you still beating around the bush.
Aron
>that would be correct...but now that its been mentioned, it could also
apply to
>the fundies.
I'm sorry, but I've heard this 'fundamentalist' excuse to many times. I can
show you time and time again, that the Koran itself us nothing but a
terrorists instruction manual. Instead of telling people something decent,
that people should not fight no matter what, that they should strive only
towards creativity, it does nothing but recommend war, violence and forcing
people to accept Islam. All that, and it claims 'god' wrote it. Thats sick,
that should not continue for a single day longer.
What do muslims think of ,say, Buddhism? The Buddha cut down everything to
the most simplest of basics. He evalualted things and put it down to four
simple truth and a small and simple eightfold path. After that, was there
really any need for new religions?? On top of that, Buddhism (like the
Hindus) says that when one attains enlightenment, when ones suffering ends,
there is no more need to practise religion. But Islam and Christianity say
that one must follow their beliefs to death, being a good person is not good
enough. One must be subserviant to the religion and give them global
authority almost.
No excuses, NO EXCUSES. I won't listen to all that nonsense about
'fundamentalism'. Islam is Islam.
Aron
>And I don't suppose they pay taxes do they?
>
You think thats funny or something. Then fuck yourself, and do it hard. Most
of them dont pay their taxes, clean (thats right, laundering) money that
comes in from abroad by setting up various businesses and then work with
their friends to slyly manipulate and convert people whenever possible. Its
that simple. The few people who do come in that dont do this are normally
Kurds or any other victim to Islamic practise.
Maria
wrote:
>
>Are you sure you're not a yank?
He has a Freeserve account. Which is almost as bad. :)
Maria
<ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>you're boring.
Oh well. You can't have everything I guess.
Mind you, it never fails to amuse me how you post great long tomes and
profound assertions then refuse to debate the content. This is after
all a debating group; you can't blame people for asking you questions
or challenging your assertions. They could of course just say 'hear
hear' or 'bollocks', but that *would* be boring.
> You shouldnt try to escape the hard facts that our society
>allows these morons
^^^^^^
? Hardly.
> to come here, take money from the security and health
>services (under more than one single name) and then turn their backs to us
>and criticise us.
I wonder if you could count the number of English British citizens who
have done exactly the same? Many British people are happily using (and
abusing) services and constantly criticising the establishment that
provides it. Should that be allowed?
>If they dont like it, they should get the fuck out. Thats
>the bottom line.
If they don't like what?
Many Muslims are British citizens who were born and brought up in this
country. Others came here to acquire a high standard of education.
Others came here to run business. Most of them are here because they
come from countries that were once part of the Empire and therefore
had British passports.
Since they are here legitimately, and since I support freedom of
speech, I uphold their right to say what they think, and even yours
too. Maybe if you can't bear it, you should get the fuck out. At least
you are free to do so.
Maybe you would have preferred to be the other side of the Iron
Curtain where you would not have had a choice but at least you would
have been protected from the Infidel.
Maria
<ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>No excuses, NO EXCUSES. I won't listen to all that nonsense about
>'fundamentalism'. Islam is Islam.
>
Please would you go to India and inform the Hindus that are killing
Christians there?
Maybe you could persuade them to stop.
Mr. Zenn
Aron wrote:
> >that would be correct...but now that its been mentioned, it could also
> apply to
> >the fundies.
>
> I'm sorry, but I've heard this 'fundamentalist' excuse to many times. I can
> show you time and time again, that the Koran itself us nothing but a
> terrorists instruction manual.
Based on my experience with little tunnelminded folk like yourself, I can show
that you guys are so myopic; if you wanted to, you'd find that same terrorism
manual in the ingrdients list of your fabric softener.
> Instead of telling people something decent,
> that people should not fight no matter what, that they should strive only
> towards creativity, it does nothing but recommend war, violence and forcing
> people to accept Islam. All that, and it claims 'god' wrote it. Thats sick,
> that should not continue for a single day longer.
10 to 1 says you have never read a portion of the Quran (maybe sound bytes taken
out of context or edited for less-than-intelligent purposes)
> What do muslims think of ,say, Buddhism? The Buddha cut down everything to
> the most simplest of basics. He evalualted things and put it down to four
> simple truth and a small and simple eightfold path. After that, was there
> really any need for new religions??
An empiricist would see no need for any religion at all (technically). Faith
does not operate under those structures however.
> On top of that, Buddhism (like the
> Hindus) says that when one attains enlightenment, when ones suffering ends,
> there is no more need to practise religion. But Islam and Christianity say
> that one must follow their beliefs to death, being a good person is not good
> enough.
You say Tomato, I say Tomato...and I'll get to Nirvana before ya'...(everybody
sing together now..!) <chortle>
> One must be subserviant to the religion and give them global
> authority almost.
>
> No excuses, NO EXCUSES. I won't listen to all that nonsense about
> 'fundamentalism'. Islam is Islam.
Is that like saying that Xians are Xians? All variations? Sounds like you
rarify things to very base and distorted elements because you are incapable or
to lazy to work out the more difficult parts.
mr. zenn
Mr. Zenn
Aron wrote:
> >Are you sure you're not a yank?
> >
> >Mr. Zenn
>
> I'm not, but you still beating around the bush.
no. you're just daft.
mr. zenn
Mr. Zenn
Aron wrote:
> >And I don't suppose they pay taxes do they?
> >
>
> You think thats funny or something. Then fuck yourself, and do it hard.
How do you fuck 'soft'...sound like a personal issue.
> Most
> of them dont pay their taxes, clean (thats right, laundering) money that
> comes in from abroad by setting up various businesses and then work with
> their friends to slyly manipulate and convert people whenever possible.
sounds like an investment banker....
> Its
> that simple. The few people who do come in that dont do this are normally
> Kurds or any other victim to Islamic practise.
mr. zenn
Mr. Zenn
Belfast
Tibet
India
anywhere in the deep south of the US (as well as lovely Idaho, stomping
ground for almost every neo-Nazi group in North America)
Indonesia
Cambodia
Israel...
blah blah bla
Mr. Zenn
Maria wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:46:49 -0000, "Aron"
> <ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >No excuses, NO EXCUSES. I won't listen to all that nonsense about
> >'fundamentalism'. Islam is Islam.
> >
>
Mr. Zenn
Maria wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:26:39 -0800, "Mr. Zenn" <jsar...@ucdavis.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Are you sure you're not a yank?
>
> He has a Freeserve account. Which is almost as bad. :)
Hey, I am a yank. One that watched a damn lot of BBC programming as a
child (oh to see Dave Allen at Large and Faulty Towers again), but
nonetheless a yank....
mr. zenn
tony...@my-dejanews.com
"Sub-Zero" <SubZe...@geocities.com> wrote:
> The "Islamic" problem is non-existent, as you and the rest of the world will
> find out in time...
Really now?
So Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, etc. with all of there Chemical and
Biological weapons, there advancing missile programs, and nuclear ambitions
are just going to disappear?
To say nothing of Osama Bin-Laden.
Tony
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Mr. Zenn
tony...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <#TN#R3#P#GA....@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
> "Sub-Zero" <SubZe...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > The "Islamic" problem is non-existent, as you and the rest of the world will
> > find out in time...
>
> Really now?
>
> So Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, etc. with all of there Chemical and
> Biological weapons, there advancing missile programs, and nuclear ambitions
> are just going to disappear?
As opposed to other nuclear, chemical, and bilogical warfare states:
the US, UK, France, Israel, the Lisbon Protocol states (Russia, Belarus, the
Ukraine), China, South Africa, Japan, Czech Republic...
>
>
> To say nothing of Osama Bin-Laden.
how so?
mr. zenn
tony...@my-dejanews.com
"Mr. Zenn" <jsar...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>
>
> tony...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <#TN#R3#P#GA....@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
> > "Sub-Zero" <SubZe...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > > The "Islamic" problem is non-existent, as you and the rest of the world
will
> > > find out in time...
> > Really now?
> > So Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, etc. with all of there Chemical and
> > Biological weapons, there advancing missile programs, and nuclear ambitions
> > are just going to disappear?
> As opposed to other nuclear, chemical, and bilogical warfare states:
> the US, UK, France, Israel, the Lisbon Protocol states (Russia, Belarus, the
> Ukraine), China, South Africa, Japan, Czech Republic...
Huh? I don't get your point, I was asking how there can be no Islamic problem
if all the nations I mentioned are developing all of those weapons, how would
they just disappear.
> > To say nothing of Osama Bin-Laden.
> how so?
> mr. zenn
Again, Huh? How so what? I mention Bin-Laden as an Islamic problem.
CROMWELL
It is what it says FRee I got fed up with giving the tosspots
at Aol 16 quid a month , or are you so rich you dont give a monkeys
No one pays if they dont have to excepts fuckwits that is
Maria wrote in message <369e7bfa...@news.clara.net>...
Aron
>Please would you go to India and inform the Hindus that are killing
>Christians there?
India should do the same as Castro and Mao and kick out all the Christians
and Muslims that have no respect for the Indians 3500 year old traditions.
Mr. Zenn
agendas within Political problems. Misinterpretation of religion as a
political/personal tool is old hat: the Crusades, Belfast, the Inquisition, the
founding of the Anglican Church, Black Baptist Church burnings...
mr. zenn
Maria
<FEN...@MGIFIELD.FREESERVE.NET> wrote:
>Please explain what is the problem with Freeserve.
None at all. I was jesting with some others in another group, in that
the net will become flooded with morons as CB radio did when it became
legal. True to say though, that some of the thoughtless posts that
have appeared of late (not this group) are from Freeserve account
holders :)
I suppose that in the end it is a 'good thing' if everybody gains
access to the net.
>It is what it says FRee I got fed up with giving the tosspots
>at Aol 16 quid a month
That's a lot. There are cheaper and better services than that. I get
25MB with my account. (not that I've used any of it yet...)
I note that with Freeserve there seem to be some onerous conditions,
like having to give your telephone number when you dial up (or receive
a reduced service), they seem to have absolutely excluded warranties
or liability for anything, are prepared to provide details of your
online activity to the police, government or regulatory authority,
Please note that you have also broken your agreed AUP by swearing :)
See below:
"6.1.6 agree not to use Freeserve or the Services to transmit or post
any material which is defamatory, offensive, or of an obscene or
menacing character, or in such a way as to cause annoyance,
inconvenience or needless anxiety"
Which may well make posting to Usenet difficult at times!
They may also modify or discontinue the service without notice to you,
and if you don't use the account for 30 days it will be terminated
without notice.
>, or are you so rich you dont give a monkeys
Not at all.
>No one pays if they dont have to excepts fuckwits that is
I hope you never need telephone support which is I believe charged at
one pound per minute.
Good luck with it anyway. :)
Maria
wrote:
>
>
>Maria wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:26:39 -0800, "Mr. Zenn" <jsar...@ucdavis.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Are you sure you're not a yank?
>>
>> He has a Freeserve account. Which is almost as bad. :)
>
>Hey, I am a yank. One that watched a damn lot of BBC programming as a
>child (oh to see Dave Allen at Large and Faulty Towers again), but
>nonetheless a yank....
But an obviously intelligent one. :)
Mr. Zenn
Maria wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:02:28 -0800, "Mr. Zenn" <jsar...@ucdavis.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Maria wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:26:39 -0800, "Mr. Zenn" <jsar...@ucdavis.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Are you sure you're not a yank?
> >>
> >> He has a Freeserve account. Which is almost as bad. :)
> >
> >Hey, I am a yank. One that watched a damn lot of BBC programming as a
> >child (oh to see Dave Allen at Large and Faulty Towers again), but
> >nonetheless a yank....
>
> But an obviously intelligent one. :)
I'm not sure if I should say 'thank you' or question your charachter
judgements... ;)
mr. zenn
Aron
>The problems you are mentioning are not 'Islamic' problems; they are
personal
>agendas within Political problems. Misinterpretation of religion as a
Sure. So there's 500 million muslims supporting this and they are all
misinterpreting it? So they scripture doesnt say anything about killing
then? I can and will post evidence, as anyone can, that Islam itself is
nothing but a cult for killers to latch on to.
Ive heard that misinterpretation excuse more times than I need to.
Yousef Al Shamsi
>Ive heard that misinterpretation excuse more times than I need to.
Then cover your ears :)
Yousef
Jean Guernon
"Mr. Zenn" a écrit :
>
> tony...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <#TN#R3#P#GA....@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
> > "Sub-Zero" <SubZe...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > > The "Islamic" problem is non-existent, as you and the rest of the world will
> > > find out in time...
> >
> > Really now?
> >
> > So Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, etc. with all of there Chemical and
> > Biological weapons, there advancing missile programs, and nuclear ambitions
> > are just going to disappear?
>
> As opposed to other nuclear, chemical, and bilogical warfare states:
>
> the US, UK, France, Israel, the Lisbon Protocol states (Russia, Belarus, the
> Ukraine), China, South Africa, Japan, Czech Republic...
>
> >
> >
> > To say nothing of Osama Bin-Laden.
>
> how so?
>
> mr. zenn
>
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
You forgot a corner of the planet, India, Pakistan and of course Korea
is suspected by everyone! Gee, guys, 'careful! some terror kingpins will
feel left out!
Me I still can't believe how fast it went up there. India had exploded
the bomb, one day, after everyone knew it was cheating for decades with
the nuclear industry. All of a sudden, a few days later, pakistan had
exploded the bomb too!
Woah!
Maybe there are lots more countries like that that could surprise the
pants out of(f) the world!
J.
Sub-Zero
I would love to see that.
Maria wrote in message <369e7ae0...@news.clara.net>...
>On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:46:49 -0000, "Aron"
><ar...@pommesblue.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>No excuses, NO EXCUSES. I won't listen to all that nonsense about
>>'fundamentalism'. Islam is Islam.
>>
>
>Please would you go to India and inform the Hindus that are killing
>Christians there?
smeanver
U.K., Russia, France,
Israel, China ( All non Islamic ) which is enough to wipe out the planet
earth ? Are you so ignorant
or you hate the truth ? Only allegations are levelled against the five
countries you mentioned ?
And who made these allegations; none but the self acknowledged possessors
of such dangerous
weapons. Does in a court of law, allegations by a thief are taken as prima
facie case against a
person never charged in court before ? Or do you think they provided proofs
by levelling the
prescribed drug manufacturing factory in Sudan and by the never ending
inspection of spies in Iraq ?
The case of Osama bin Laden is once again that of allegation only. The
world likes to know
what evidence have been collected from Kenya and Tanzania tragedies ?
Knowing previous acts
of C.I.A. and Zionist agents, it could well also be alleged to have been
carried out by them.
tony...@my-dejanews.com wrote
> >
>
> Really now?
>
> So Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, etc. with all of there Chemical and
> Biological weapons, there advancing missile programs, and nuclear
ambitions
> are just going to disappear?
>
> To say nothing of Osama Bin-Laden.
>
Jean Guernon
smeanver a écrit :
>
> What about Nuclear, Chemical, Biological etc.etc. stockpiles with U.S.A.,
> U.K., Russia, France,
> Israel, China ( All non Islamic ) which is enough to wipe out the planet
> earth ? Are you so ignorant
> or you hate the truth ? Only allegations are levelled against the five
> countries you mentioned ?
> And who made these allegations; none but the self acknowledged possessors
> of such dangerous
> weapons. Does in a court of law, allegations by a thief are taken as prima
> facie case against a
> person never charged in court before ? Or do you think they provided proofs
> by levelling the
> prescribed drug manufacturing factory in Sudan and by the never ending
> inspection of spies in Iraq ?
>
Come on, do you doubt even one second that these allegations have some
truth in them?
Robin
<jgue...@ivic.qc.ca> writes
>
>
>smeanver a écrit :
>>
>> What about Nuclear, Chemical, Biological etc.etc. stockpiles with U.S.A.,
>> U.K., Russia, France,
>> Israel, China ( All non Islamic ) which is enough to wipe out the planet
>> earth ? Are you so ignorant
>> or you hate the truth ? Only allegations are levelled against the five
>> countries you mentioned ?
>> And who made these allegations; none but the self acknowledged possessors
>> of such dangerous
>> weapons. Does in a court of law, allegations by a thief are taken as prima
>> facie case against a
>> person never charged in court before ? Or do you think they provided proofs
>> by levelling the
>> prescribed drug manufacturing factory in Sudan and by the never ending
>> inspection of spies in Iraq ?
>>
>
>Come on, do you doubt even one second that these allegations have some
>truth in them?
Absolutely and when did citizens of those countries last wrap explosives
around their bodies, make their way to a market and blow innocent womane
and children to pieces?
Of course these fools are brainwashed by their evil imams into believing
that they will go straight to heaven.
Their view of heaven must be very odd indeed!
--
Robin
Please remove 'spam' on reply.
Jean Guernon
Robin a écrit :
Yep. I must say though that the Sudan thing was a total mess and we will
never know because of that mess if ever there are not other places or
counties that are unjustly targetted,. But i don't doubt that all those
the UN - not the US (very imoportant) - suspects, have initiated the
design and further materialization of these WMD. The US (or the prez?),
has lost its credibility on that with Sudan unfortunately. It still can
probably - certainly - provide the UN with sound intelligence, but that
must now be doublechecked for obvious reasons.
J.
Robin
<smea...@tm.net.my> writes
>
>
>> Absolutely and when did citizens of those countries last wrap explosives
>> around their bodies, make their way to a market and blow innocent womane
>> and children to pieces?
>> Of course these fools are brainwashed by their evil imams into believing
>> that they will go straight to heaven.
>>
>> Their view of heaven must be very odd indeed!
>>
>> --
>> Robin
>> Please remove 'spam' on reply.
>>
>irresponsible
>groups. Please reply on the right lines.
>The questions raised by you could also be discussed, but separately.
>Pl. use your foul sounding adjectives on yourselves and those you love.
>
>Regards.
And which of the adjectives to you feel are foul mouthed?
You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
Still I'm sure the children sold into bondage in Pakistan will listen to
your prayers as they crouch chained to looms.
Next Player.
smeanver
Tony Quirke
> You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
> so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
> Still I'm sure the children sold into bondage in Pakistan will listen to
> your prayers as they crouch chained to looms.
You forget to mention that these looms weave carpets destined to grace
Western homes. If you want to free people from poverty, figure out a way
to deal with such things as $100 Nikes manufactured by Indonesian girls
paid $2 a day.
- Tony Q.
--
"One has to play the ball where it lies, I suppose. (That's an
American football metaphor, Tony. [...])" - Geoff Miller, 1998, who is
currently placing bets on Tiger Woods to win the next Superbowl...
john smith
Tony Quirke wrote:
> Robin <Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
>
> > You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
> > so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
>
> Have you ever considered that the "so called islamic countries", are what
> you get if you put Islam into practice?
Adam
Robin
.actrix.gen.nz> writes
>Robin <Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
>
>> You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
>> so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
>
>> your prayers as they crouch chained to looms.
>
> You forget to mention that these looms weave carpets destined to grace
>Western homes. If you want to free people from poverty, figure out a way
>to deal with such things as $100 Nikes manufactured by Indonesian girls
>paid $2 a day.
>
>- Tony Q.
I've figured it out. I don't buy any goods that I suspect have been made
by slave labour. One has to be very careful with Chinese made goods.
They are only so cheap because they are made by forced labour in prison
camps.
An argument I often here is that these people would starve without our
sweatshops. These people managed before we arrived and we deprive
children of the education that might eventually lift their country out
of poverty.
Regards
Jean Guernon
john smith a écrit :
>
> Tony Quirke wrote:
>
> > Robin <Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
> >
> > > You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
> > > so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
> >
> > Have you ever considered that the "so called islamic countries", are what
> > you get if you put Islam into practice?
>
> Adam
A "dam" you mean?
It is ironic that because the US says that their unemployment rate is at
5% when in fact 30-40% of Amricans are out of work and those that get
jobs have much less chances of getting good salaries with the fusions
and everything.... that it's all bullshit in fact to reasure the people
that they vote for responsible individuals who in fact are congenial
liars that don't tell ALL the truth, that don't say that a great
proportion of working Americans don't make wages above the poverty line.
(Must say that Clinton DID improve the odds by raising the minimum
salary a dollar over the next 2 years!!!)
The elimination of welfare and the cover-up over that will still make a
lot more cheap labor wages...
To summarize, it is ironic that poverty is not calculated in the same
way in the Western world. That what the media praise all the time has
little to do with the real poverty that plagues the US and will make
more and more innocent victims. Winder what the real figures would show.
Of there was real solidarity, a minimum guaranteed revenue and
proportional representation, I wonder to what extent, maybe they could
speak.
So far, it's the wealth of the stock holders... that is attributed to
the whole of America. SAD.
J.
William Barwell
Jean Guernon <jgue...@ivic.qc.ca> wrote:
>
>
>john smith a écrit :
>>
>> Tony Quirke wrote:
>>
>> > Robin <Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
>> >
>> > > You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
>> > > so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
>> >
>> > Have you ever considered that the "so called islamic countries", are what
>> > you get if you put Islam into practice?
>>
>> Adam
>
>A "dam" you mean?
>
>It is ironic that because the US says that their unemployment rate is at
>5% when in fact 30-40% of Amricans are out of work
Where did you get this utter nonsense from?
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
Crebome
> If you want to free people from poverty, figure out a way
>to deal with such things as $100 Nikes manufactured by Indonesian girls
>paid $2 a day.
You mean it was muslim workers who stitched that "offensive" "Allah"-like
script onto Nike shoes?? And them muslims who sued the company?
Very interesting.
Jean Guernon
William Barwell a écrit :
Tell me samrt ass, how many people in the US are EMPLOYED? (not unemployed,
EMPLOYED! the exact figure.)
Tony Quirke
> Tony Quirke wrote:
> > Robin <Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
> > > You should be working to free people from the poverty that the corrupt
> > > so called Islamic regimes impose on the people.
> > Have you ever considered that the "so called islamic countries", are what
> > you get if you put Islam into practice?
> Adam
Actually, Tony Quirke didn't say any such thing. Since such a comment
doesn't appear in the previous thread, I suspect "John Smith" is being
deliberately dishonest here.