MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
Shareef Haque
MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
==============================
Mustafa Kemal was AtaJew (Father of the Jews) maybe, but certainly not
'Father of the Turks'.
Below is an interesting tract I found on the internet. Anyone not
convinced by this should also
go to http://www.ummah.org.uk/sultan/
* FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
*
* January 28, 1994
*
*
* WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
*
* "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
*
* By Hillel Halkin
*
* ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
* over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
* Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
* first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
* whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
* commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
*
* Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he
* and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of
their
* arrival, and asked what my second question was.
*
* "Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and
* was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
*
* "Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had
* inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's
* national hero.
*
*
* Excited and Distressed
*
* I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to
* call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any
reference
* while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you
called
* again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed.
* "Exactly where did you get your information from?"
*
* Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it
too?
*
* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it
must
* because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up,"
she
* said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything
about
* it. Could you please fax us what you know?"
*
* I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
*
* Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
* main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in
his
* lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken
seriously
* by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
* none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to
it
* in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
* Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
*
* "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
* and founder of the modern Turkish state.
*
* "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
* Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of
the
* belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his
family
* came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire
to
* give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he
was
* sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
*
*
* Secular Father
*
* The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews
who
* took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly
* believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and
conducted
* carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's
* version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with
his
* own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
*
* "My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion,
and
* a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a
* lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on
modern
* science.
*
* "In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the
victory
* after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes,
* and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla
* Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...
*
* "Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from
* the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a
free
* preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no
* objection, since her desires had been complied with and her
conventions
* respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."
*
* Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme
* fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing
at
* them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of
Salonika,
* close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father,
Ali
* Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian,
* Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk"
* calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding
* Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To
* the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever
his
* racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins
* beyond that of his parentage."
*
*
* Learning Hebrew
*
* Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have
* asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while
browsing
* in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of
* Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken
Hebrew
* in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised
in
* Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper
* publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in
* Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:
* " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the
one
* with the bottle of arrack?' "
*
* " 'Yes.' "
*
* " 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
*
* " 'What's his name?' "
*
* " 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
*
* " 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at
him
* I was startled by his piercing green eyes."
*
* Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet
* taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted
in
* French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with
* large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
*
* "I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but
an
* ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew
in
* this country would do well to join his camp."
*
* During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel,
* Mustafa Kemal said at one point:
*
* " 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather
old,
* and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught
me
* to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "
*
* And Ben-Avi continues:
*
* "He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space.
* Then he recalled:
*
* " 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
*
* " 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
*
* " 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling
our
* glasses."
*
* Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt
* meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of
the
* Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them
* reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing
the
* confession of faith:
*
* "Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel,
the
* Lord our God, the Lord is one."
*
* It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible,
that
* Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my
* knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young
* Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated
conversations
* in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish
army
* after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading
Greeks
* and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished -
once
* and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.
*
* Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme
origins.
* Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and
numbered
* close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World
* War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a
* reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been
flattering
* to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by
* the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical
* commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described
by
* Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak
Ben-Zvi,
* in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
*
*
* 'Saintly Offspring
*
* "Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the
candles
* are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and
the
* ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the
night
* of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that
children
* born of such unions are regarded as saintly."
*
* Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is
reason
* to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and
* continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the
Doenmes'
* traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern
* Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other
* Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its
* descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and
* merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated
totally
* into Turkish life.
*
* After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she
had
* received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the
* president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is
doubtful,
* however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The
* Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim
* fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms
of
* Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the
* 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim
* sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it
* would prefer to continue to be kept.
*
*
* *****
Hope this is useful info.
Regards,
Shareef
--
soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.islam,alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.maghreb,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.egyptian,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.kuwait,soc.culture.bangladesh
=======================================================================Usual disclaimer about my opinions and my employers applies.
Mario Martinez
nian,soc.culture.maghreb,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.palestine,soc.c
lture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.e
yptian,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.kuwait,soc.culture.bangladesh
>
>
>
>======================================================================
Usual disclaimer about my opinions and my employers applies.
Empty propaganda against a great man an modern leader
Mario
Kabeer Punjabi
Shareef Haque wrote:
>
> MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
> ==============================
Gentleman,
I enjoyed your novel. Are you planning to publish it?
Kabeer
Roger Froikin
Mario Martinez wrote:
>
> >* Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of
> the
> >* 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim
> >* sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that
> it
> >* would prefer to continue to be kept.
Doubtful history.
It reminds me of another example, though. Ther founder of Wahabi Islam
was born Jewish. The Wahabi family are Yeminite Jews.
I don't only smile for the camera
So what if it is true that Mustafa Kemal is jew or not does that make him
a bad person? Karl Marx was of Jewish origin but did not believe in
Judaism. Antoun Sa'ada the Syro-Lebanese Pan-Arabist was born Christian,
but he had his own opinions.... I really dont see how a person born
muslim any better than Mustafa Kemal where he is Jew or not.... Turkey
has been modernised by Mustafa Kemal and go and visit Turkey and see...
Anyway, the Turks adopted Islam out of convenience if you think about it
Hungarians (Magyars) are cousins of the Turks but they are Christian it
is just historical chance.... Whether you like it or not, Turkey is being
accept into "Christian" EU (European Union) and are already in the
Customs Union... They should not be exempted from EU over religious
division because Europe is not like the middle east and Mustafa Kemal was
brutal in some ways, but he built modern Turkey..... So don't call him
atajew because that sounds racist to say the least.... So if a person is
born Muslim or Christian they are automatically a certain way.... You
need to open your mind and realize not everythign is black and white...
It doesnt matter what religion you are it is how you behave or even if
you dont have any religion yu can still be a good person....
"Say the Truth and it shall set you free"
Basil
Gulunay dont worry they dont respect secular Turkey but you dont
care about it and be proud of what your country has built ....
I have visited it three times it is nice
Mahmud Alam
To all the idiots who are going nuts over whether Kemal Ataturk was a
jew or not, I really don't give a shit and you shouldn't either. I am a
muslim, and I respect the man. May Allah bless him, for the good he did
for mankind and punish him for whatever he did wrong. I also pray to
Allah to over look whether he was a Jew or not, because obviously he
didnot come across a perfect muslim in all his years whose deeds and
actions could have convinced him that Islam was the way.So I pray to
Allah to punish the muslims that could have impressed him with the
message, but did not. I guess all the good muslims were to busy
praticing polygamy, male-chauvinism and other forms of depraved and
supressive behaviour.... So I couln't care a rats ass if he was a
part-time Zen Buddist either. Trying to associate him with a religion
is a waste of time and energy. All the troubles in this world arise
when some no life looser chooses to make some one elses relgion (or
lack of it) their business. It is then you get sons-of-bitches like
Khomeni, Gaddafi, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and others, who destroy the
lives of people, their heritage, and the years of effort by their fore
fathers to build a life for their children and send people to death in
the name of God. These people, the world can do without.So lets not
give a damm about a man's relgion, but judge him by his actions.
Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi
I don't only smile for the camera (b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
: So what if it is true that Mustafa Kemal is jew or not does that make him
: a bad person? Karl Marx was of Jewish origin but did not believe in
: Judaism. Antoun Sa'ada the Syro-Lebanese Pan-Arabist was born Christian,
: but he had his own opinions.... I really dont see how a person born
: muslim any better than Mustafa Kemal where he is Jew or not.... Turkey
: has been modernised by Mustafa Kemal and go and visit Turkey and see...
It is irrelevant whether Mustafa Kemal was a Jew or not.
What is relevant is that he was a Euro-asskisser who
saddled his nation with the "wanna be Euro" mentality
for the next few generations. I'm glad that the new
government of Turkey is of a decidedly Islamic nature.
As for Ataturk . . . he was an opportunistic dictator
who took it upon himself to force his countrymen to
think, speak and write according to his own peculiar
brand of ideology. He convinced Turks to run away
from their own history, simply because they were
facing an epiphany.
Saif Al-Shirawi.
Imad Jaimoukha
On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Shareef Haque wrote:
> MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
> ==============================
Here is a further list of famous jews: Marx, Trotsky, Einstein,
Al-Maimoun, Moses (Musa), Jesus (`Isa). There are many others. Their
work has largely shaped our life throughout history. Do you want to
reject their work just because they were jewish?
Imad
I don't only smile for the camera
On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Imad Jaimoukha wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Shareef Haque wrote:
>
> > MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
> > ==============================
>
> Here is a further list of famous jews: Marx, Trotsky, Einstein,
> Al-Maimoun, Moses (Musa), Jesus (`Isa). There are many others. Their
> work has largely shaped our life throughout history. Do you want to
> reject their work just because they were jewish?
>
> Imad
>
>
You forgot one more Jonas Salk the inventor of the Polio Vaccine
many "Muslims" and "Christians" would have polio if it were not for him.
We, the human race, whether we like it or not are all one. It is wrong
to attribute to certain races or people belonging to certain religions it
is not like a genetic defect that can not be removed....
Basil
Mohamed H. Aboul-S姉ud
In article <321AFAD8...@ps.ic.ac.uk>, Imad Jaimoukha
<jaim...@ps.ic.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Shareef Haque wrote:
>
>> MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
>> ==============================
>
>Here is a further list of famous jews: Marx, Trotsky, Einstein,
>Al-Maimoun, Moses (Musa), Jesus (`Isa). There are many others. Their
>work has largely shaped our life throughout history. Do you want to
>reject their work just because they were jewish?
>
>Imad
Imad:
Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain English or
you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus (pbuh) or MOses
(pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare you?
The problem is not racism and again read carefully and understand.
Turkey was ans still is and always will be (Insha'Allah) a Muslim
country. Mustafe Kamal may Allah curse him came to power and acted as if
he were a MUslim, i.e. a Hypocrite. He then used Kurdish Muslims and
convinced them in the name of Islam to fight along his army to liberate
Turkey, and surely he didn't forget to promise them independence after his
victory. However, as are all hypocrites throughout the history he didn't
fulfill his promise and went ahead and demolished every islamic aspect in
the country. So the problem is not that he was a jew or not, but that he
was a hypoctite who used his cover and tried to defeat islam.
To close this argument, never should somebody's faith be a reason for
his/her persecution. For example, true muslims denounce Nasser, Fahd,
both Husseins (The king and Saddam), Assad, Mubarak, and the rest of the
gang, while they are supposed to be muslims, so once again, try to
understand.
--
best regards,
Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph. D.
Department of Industrial Engineering
University of Louisville, KY
han...@ix.netcom.com
Enver Pasha has done more for Islamic turkey than any other Moslem turk.
He was the man to put Turkey into its modern status, his intention was
not to make Turkey as part of Europe. His death give Mustfa Kemal the
free hand to converted into its previous status. Enver Pasha, Moslem hero
who died in the battle agaist the oppression of the Moslem people in the
former Soviet Union, will be buried in his Mother land soon. The Russian
are not allowing his body to be escavated from the Moslem Area of the
former Soviet Union. But pressure from the present Moslem Government in
Turkey is prevailing.
Salah Jafar
Salah Jafar
Imad Jaimoukha
mhab...@homer.louisville.edu wrote:
> In article <321AFAD8...@ps.ic.ac.uk>, Imad Jaimoukha
> <jaim...@ps.ic.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> MUSTAFA KEMAL - THE SECRET JEW
> >> ==============================
> >Al-Maimoun, Moses (Musa), Jesus (`Isa). There are many others. Their
> >work has largely shaped our life throughout history. Do you want to
> >reject their work just because they were jewish?
> >Imad
>
> Imad:
> Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain English or
> you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus (pbuh) or MOses
> (pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare you?
No comparison intended. The writer of the article claims Mustapha Kamal
was jewish, implying he must be up to no good. I simply corrected him on
that score.
> The problem is not racism and again read carefully and understand.
> Turkey was ans still is and always will be (Insha'Allah) a Muslim
> country. Mustafe Kamal may Allah curse him came to power and acted as if
> he were a MUslim, i.e. a Hypocrite. He then used Kurdish Muslims and
> convinced them in the name of Islam to fight along his army to liberate
> Turkey, and surely he didn't forget to promise them independence after his
> victory. However, as are all hypocrites throughout the history he didn't
> fulfill his promise and went ahead and demolished every islamic aspect in
> the country. So the problem is not that he was a jew or not, but that he
> was a hypoctite who used his cover and tried to defeat islam.
Ataturk never used any cover. He made it clear right from the beginning
that he stood for secularism, and he certainly never promised the Kurds
a state of their own. His aim was to preserve Turkey from defeat, and he
succeeded: probably Turkey's comeback from the defeat of WWI is one of
the most spectacular recoveries in the twentieth century.
> To close this argument, never should somebody's faith be a reason for
> his/her persecution. For example, true muslims denounce Nasser, Fahd,
> both Husseins (The king and Saddam), Assad, Mubarak, and the rest of the
> gang, while they are supposed to be muslims, so once again, try to
> understand.
The Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan does not denounce king Hussein. The
Salafi's do not denounce Fahd. Are they then not true muslims?
> best regards,
> Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph. D.
> Department of Industrial Engineering
> University of Louisville, KY
Imad
homeless_dog
hw...@ix.netcom.com(Mahmud Alam) wrote:
Nope he was not the secret jew.
HE WAS AN IDIOT ASSHOLE.
he,he,he,he,
Ahmed Mohammed Wagih
oc.culture.kuwait,soc.culture.bangladesh
Followup-To: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.islam,alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.maghreb,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.egyptian,soc.culture.turkish,
soc.culture.kuwait,soc.culture.bangladesh
References: <321433...@logica.com> <Pine.OSF.3.91.960818...@alcor.concordia.ca> <321AFAD8...@ps.ic.ac.uk> <mhabou01-210...@mhabou01.remote.louisville.edu>
Distribution:
Mohamed H. Aboul-S姉ud) (mhab...@homer.louisville.edu) wrote:
: In article <321AFAD8...@ps.ic.ac.uk>, Imad Jaimoukha
: <jaim...@ps.ic.ac.uk> wrote:
: To close this argument, never should somebody's faith be a reason for
: his/her persecution. For example, true muslims denounce Nasser, Fahd,
: both Husseins (The king and Saddam), Assad, Mubarak, and the rest of the
: gang, while they are supposed to be muslims, so once again, try to
: understand.
The first statement is right and the second is wrong. I am a Moslem
Egyptian and I support Mubarak. Does that automatically make me a
hypocrit? Do you support the anti-Mubarak gang that kills innocents just
because they are of a different faith? they recently robbed two banks and
a jewelry shop killing the shopkeepers (refer to clari.world.news) Is
this what the true Moslems should support?
I also have another question for you! if you are so enthusiast for
Islamic way of life, why are you living in the US? you are obviously not
studying as you have your Ph.D., and you didn't denounce Iran or
Pakistani regimes so you can go their and live the Islamic way of life.
:
-- : best regards,
: Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph. D.
: Department of Industrial Engineering
: University of Louisville, KY
Regards,
--------------------
Ahmed WAGIH
Joint Doctoral Program,
University of Cairo/University of Pennsylvania
Graduate School of Fine Arts
Graduate Program of City & Regional Planning
"visit my homepage at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/‾wagih"
Kambiz Iranpour
Instead of all these discussions on grand ideologies, religious
differences, historical grudges and malicious feelings why
not start discussing about the development questions,
industrialization hurdles, methods to fight corruption,
overpopulation problems, democratic changes, healthcare
and how to stop impoverishment ?
Instead of talking in big words why not talk about all the small
issues which really matter ? You think an ideology or a
religion or God will
come and fix everything for you ? Well I doubt that !!!
You have yourselves alone to address the problems of your
countries and your lives. So why not deal with the
economy, corruption, human right abuses, scietific
achievements, and etc. and discuss how these grand
good-for-nothing never-ending sophism cross-posted to all the
newsgroups are supposed to solve the REAL problems ?
How and by whom ?
Best regards
Kambiz
I don't only smile for the camera
Whether you like it or not, the Turkish are European in
appearance. The city Istanbul has a Greek name and many Turkish symbols
come from Byzantine culture and Turkish have many similarities with their
Balkan neighbours. The Hungarians are distantly related to Turks but
they are Christian. Turks adopted Islam out of convenience not out of
deep conviction. Just like the Russians were made Christian by a Russian
prince. Turkey is not turning into an Islamic state and will not. The
president is still Demirel and he can get rid of Erbakan if he wants.
Also, the majority in Parliament are still secular. Erbakan got power
because the Shining path party led by Ciller does not agree with Mesut's
party. Also, another point is many Turks are dissappointed that their
country is not in the EC yet. But these things take time. Turkey is now
in all European sports. It is included as part of Europe in many
magazines and European studies and Europeans are getting closer to seeing
Turkey as part of them when compared to many years ago. Also, the EU
decided this year to admit Turkey into the customs union which means they
are on their way. So before you open the bottle of Champagne or Rakki
wait and see you may be wrong.... I have been to Turkey have you?
Basil
akgun,cengiz
In article <mhabou01-210...@mhabou01.remote.louisville.edu>,
Mohamed H. Aboul-S姉ud <mhab...@homer.louisville.edu> wrote:
[...]
>best regards,
>
>Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph. D.
>Department of Industrial Engineering
>University of Louisville, KY
Just seeing ones like above (regardless of how many Ph.D's attached to
the name) who tries to insult M. Kemal is assuring Turks about the
Kemal's wisdom every day. Kemal did not came from the moon. He
spent a good amount of his life in the deserts and saw what has really
happen to those sorry asses living there after their great leap in
the 8th Century. That is actually what has inspired him to change the
course to enlighten the masses in Turkey, who were in the dark in ages
as a result of emulating those living on the sand. I will be grateful
to the Arabs who inspired M. Kemal for that. It is too bad for those
who could not produce one like him centuries after their doom. The
proof is there. Just compare the state of today's Turkey (even though
it started to deviate from the course just after he was gone) and the
rest of the junk in which people are up to their ears with the oil.
Not to mention about those states in which people speak the same
language, follow the same book and share the same culture but could not
get along due to external and internal manuplations. They are condemned
to be exploited via the religion for centuries to come unless they
produce someone like M. Kemal soon for their enligtenment. If people
could not see this simple fact, they should better clean up the tar or
the sand in their eyes before tongue-lashing M. Kemal. Otherwise,
those Ph.D's do not amount to a hilly bean.
C. Akgun
Kerem Mustafa Un
Too much bullshit under this topic...
Ataturk was a revolutionist and revolutions are
not made with flowers. He saw the possible threats to
the Republic and fought against them. It is so simple.
And radical Islam was one of them and still is.
Today Turkey is the only Muslim country with a
proper democratic system where man and women are
legally equal, and anybody, no matter of what religion,
is free to practise his/her religion, as long as it
doesn`t threaten the freedom of other people. That`s
what Ataturk had aimed and that`s what it is now.
Ataturk might be a Jew, I don't care.
He might be a Muslim, I don't care.
He might be an atheist, I still don`t care.
Racists and chauvenists (spelling?) are welcome to care.
Ataturk is a revolutionist and what`s
important is his actions. Who cares what his
race is or what he believes in? Are you also interested
in his favourite folk songs or his footsize?
KEREM
Erol Keskin
>
> Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain English or
> you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus (pbuh) or MOses
> (pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare you?
May the flee population of your camel have a field day on your
buttocks, Oh, you, blind driver of the great sand.
Erol
han...@ix.netcom.com
Ya Basil you are right, Iran was also at one time an American/Israel
Zionist base. Today the situation is little different. Inshallah in the
future the rest of the Arab world will be all Islamic.
SJ
Cenk Yildirim
I really can not understand what is tried to be proven.
Arab people always, as I observe, try to prove Turks always had leaders
who are not Muslim .And as I observe they always want to mentio that they
are more muslim then Turks.I personally do not want to talk about
individuals but can Arabs show me a proper lear of them??
Esad?,Saddam, Saudis?
As I understand these kind of convictions just reflect the Arab
nationalism of them not true Islamic feelings.Unfortunetly they escape
from self-critism.
But this is not new.Arabs betrayed to Caliphate in Istanbul in 1914.
We Turks didnt forget the Akabe battle.Our Arab friends helped the English
army to exterminate Ottoman forces.THe Arabs of 1914 also werent
comportable with Caliphate, cause they were convinced that Caliphate
should be Arab, and when they saw the beuty of English money they didnt
wait a mintue and betrayed to Caliphate.This Arab betrayal resulted
Ottomans to lose JEruselam.And brave Arabs couldnt even save that ccity
casue they now started to fight against each other.So it is true to claim
that Arabs have given Jeruselam to Israel, as a result of Betrayal to
Caliphate.
Why dont Arabs think of their betrayals ?
Why always They try to convict others?
Unfortunetly ,even today , they seem to have same habits.Why dont Arabs
stop and think of their own problems?
Y Rapido
Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi wrote:
>
> I don't only smile for the camera (b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>
> : So what if it is true that Mustafa Kemal is jew or not does that make him
> : a bad person? Karl Marx was of Jewish origin but did not believe in
> : Judaism. Antoun Sa'ada the Syro-Lebanese Pan-Arabist was born Christian,
> : but he had his own opinions.... I really dont see how a person born
> : muslim any better than Mustafa Kemal where he is Jew or not.... Turkey
> : has been modernised by Mustafa Kemal and go and visit Turkey and see...
>
>
rap: Wasselam. You obviously do not know anything about Karl Marx (British
agent and one of the creators of Communist ideology) and his Zionist goals.
Communism is a Zionist weapon against Christianity. Leran that and remember
that. OK ?! Zionists have created and support Communism globally during
more than 100 past years, including today (with some alterations towards
the so-called Liberalism and so on and so forth).
As for Mustafa Kemal, he has done some good and some erroneous things. The
good things he has done is that he has brought Turkey into the 20th Century,
while most other so-called "muslim countries" are way in Feudal Dark Ages
even today. Also, his good influence is that he has rejected Sufism and all
weird quasi-islamic ideologies that were infesting decaying Ottoman Empire
for more than two centuries as it was dying. Also, a good thing, Kemal
has destroyed Oligachic rule (Dynastic/Feudal rule) of Turkey. Dynastic
rule is deeply ANTI-islamic by all counts (that is why all Kings, Emirs,
Sultans and Shaykhs are basically anti-sialmic rulers !).
However, that came at a price of some degree of unneccessary ultra-nationalsm
on the part of Turks (unneccessary battles with neighbours during the 20th
Century); also, Turkey became too subservient to Zionists who also control
the West. That, in turn, contributed to geostrategic impotence and disunity
of the so-called "muslim world" -- it destroyed it, practically.
Let us hope that Erbakhan and his Refah party proves to be not only the
Welfare party, but also the WISDOM party! Erbakhan has to play a historic
role today, and let us wish him luck !
Oric )
In article <321C84...@ix.netcom.com>, <han...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I don't only smile for the camera wrote:
>
>Ya Basil you are right, Iran was also at one time an American/Israel
>Zionist base. Today the situation is little different. Inshallah in the
>future the rest of the Arab world will be all Islamic.
>SJ
We are not in the Arab World .. Mind you
Oric
Rafat Sadiq
In article <4vi48p$3...@lib107.its.rpi.edu>,
Kerem Mustafa Un <u...@lib107.its.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>Today Turkey is the only Muslim country with a
>proper democratic system where man and women are
>legally equal, and anybody, no matter of what religion,
>is free to practise his/her religion, as long as it
>doesn`t threaten the freedom of other people. That`s
>what Ataturk had aimed and that`s what it is now.
Except of course if you're a Kurd. THen you don't have
the right to express yourself or seek recognition for you
culture.
Rafat M Sadiq
SAng Shekan
To the residents of Denver Metropolitan Area.
A Sunday school for teaching Islamic topics is set up in Denver
Colorado.
The school will start from Sunday September 8th, and meet weekly from
11:00 am to 2:00 PM.
Pre-registration is required and an orientation meetings are scheduled
for Sunday August 25
at 11:00 to 12:00 and also Thursday August 29, from 6:30 to 7:30 pm at
Islamic Center of
Ahl-Al-Bait, 201 S. Lowell Blvd. Classes are available for kids of
various ages and the program
includes a variety of topics from history of Islam to Arabic language
(or possibly Persian Language).
The outline of the developed by a group of Muslim sisters and are
available for review by request.
Everybody is welcome to participate and register for the school.
For more information please contact :
Maryam Bahrainy @ (303) - 433-0031
Karimeh Zareie @ (303) - 296-6157
PS. Since the classes are to be held in a mosque, ladies are required to
wear modest closing and head
covering (Hejab)for the respect of the place.
Levent Arslan
Saif, or Fatma whoever wrote this stupid letter.
Normally I try to keep my conversations at a certain level of
respect, which is obviously too much for you. Calling someone
who saved our country not only from those bloodhungry europeans
but also from sick minded, ignorant, coward sultan that we had
was the best thing that happened to this country. I am
certainly proud of our history. We achieved alot, if it is the
right way to say we kisked ass for 600 years. Our mistake was
to give too much to the ones like you. We let you live even
more comfortably than you would live yourself. Then when the
time came you all paid back in a way which was very fit with
arab character. I am a muslim and I am also proud of that as
much as I am a Turk. The only reason that caused the Ottoman
Empire to crash was not seperating Islam and government at the
right time. Well some sultans tried but they got killed and
most of the later ones were unable to do anything anyway. You
can not just let the leadership of an empire to the first born
boy. It is like playying poker and betting on your country.
Well the expected happened when the time came. We still have
lots of problems because we still have lots of sick minds like
yours. And I am not saying this just because I do not agree
your ideas, I don't even care about them; I am saying it
because you are so thoughtless, so shameless, and so indecent
that you think you can call Ataturk, an as....;You don't know
how much he means to me and all the turks. I am not even
counting that 21% as turks , they would not either. So even if
I shoul not even answer a little empty minded (but he thinks he
knows the best) little... like you, but I could not hold
myself. Look at all of the arabic countries(not muslim
countries) they are lazy, dirty, even if they have so much
petrol they are so stupid that they are using it to kill each
other. If an islamic regime was an answer so why it is not
working. You know to my knowledge Allah does not like lazy
people, He said Muhammed was the last messenger and hHe does
not need some sick people to act like one, and He says other
than another person's right it is between him and the prayer.
And that He forgives. So do not think that just because you are
a muslim Allah will tace care of you. A hardworking honest
christian is alot worthy to me than a badmouth, indecent,
unrespectful (if you really are)muslim tome.
Bulent Arslan
Philippe Schmerka BLACHER
<Homeless> wrote (écrivait) :
> hw...@ix.netcom.com(Mahmud Alam) wrote:
>
> Nope he was not the secret jew.
>
> HE WAS AN IDIOT ASSHOLE.
>
> he,he,he,he, --------- I am very sad to see that the www and forum
>discussions are the open door to rudeness and lack of respect.... in a
>way, it is a cure for psychopats..
Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi
Levent Arslan (lar...@ee.duke.edu) wrote:
: Saif, or Fatma whoever wrote this stupid letter.
: respect, which is obviously too much for you. Calling someone
: who saved our country not only from those bloodhungry europeans
: but also from sick minded, ignorant, coward sultan that we had
: was the best thing that happened to this country. I am
: certainly proud of our history. We achieved alot, if it is the
: right way to say we kisked ass for 600 years. Our mistake was
: to give too much to the ones like you. We let you live even
: more comfortably than you would live yourself. Then when the
: time came you all paid back in a way which was very fit with
Golly, gee! I'm really sorry that us silly Arabs didn't
appreciate the benefits of living under Ottoman rule.
Amazing how we had the temerity to take our own land
back from the Ottoman occupation forces.
Take your pompous self-righteous bullshit and shove it.
The Arabs took back Arab land. Or do you consider
places like Aqaba to be an integral part of Turkey?
As for Ataturk, he was a dictator who happened to be in
the right place at the right time. The reason Turkey
exists as a sovereign state today is because the British
and their allies decided that the "sick man of Europe"
had been sufficiently dismembered . . . not because
Ataturk managed to pull some rabbit trick out of his
hat . . . despite what your state propaganda machine
keeps reiterating about your hero.
Remind me to illuminate you on the origins of the Ottoman
Empire . . . according to authoritative historical texts,
not Turkish school books. And by the way . . . spare
me the crap about Islam . . . Ataturk was explicitly
against the concept of Turkey as an Islamic state . . .
why else would he change the Turkish alphabet from
Arabic script to Cyrillic? Sorry to deflate your
fantasies. By the way . . . I'll gladly cite the
sources which disprove your idiotic views. Just
ask.
Saif Al-Shirawi.
Ahmad Rana
fa...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi) wrote:
>Amazing how we had the temerity to take our own land
>back from the Ottoman occupation forces.
..by conspirating with the British and stabbing the Turks
in the back.
>Take your pompous self-righteous bullshit and shove it.
>The Arabs took back Arab land. Or do you consider
>places like Aqaba to be an integral part of Turkey?
It wasn't Turkey at the time. It was the Empire.
>As for Ataturk, he was a dictator who happened to be in
>the right place at the right time. The reason Turkey
>exists as a sovereign state today is because the British
>and their allies decided that the "sick man of Europe"
>had been sufficiently dismembered . . . not because
>Ataturk managed to pull some rabbit trick out of his
>hat . . . despite what your state propaganda machine
>keeps reiterating about your hero.
Silly goat, the British had decided to give only a small
part of Anatolia to the Turks. A region around Ankara one
tenth the size of present day Turkey. If it had not been
for Ataturk, even that part would have been taken away
from the Turks. And considering those times, it would not
have been surprising to find the Turks completely wiped out
from that area through 'ethnic cleansing'.
Ahmad.
Murat H. Eskiyerli
han...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
> Enver Pasha has done more for Islamic turkey than any other Moslem turk.
> He was the man to put Turkey into its modern status, his intention was
> not to make Turkey as part of Europe. His death give Mustfa Kemal the
> free hand to converted into its previous status. Enver Pasha, Moslem hero
> who died in the battle agaist the oppression of the Moslem people in the
> former Soviet Union, will be buried in his Mother land soon. The Russian
> are not allowing his body to be escavated from the Moslem Area of the
> former Soviet Union. But pressure from the present Moslem Government in
> Turkey is prevailing.
>
> Salah Jafar
Enver Pasha was the ally of Germany and unabashed admirer of Germans.
He took the Ottoman State to a disastrous war at the side of
Germans. So much for not being of part of Europe. Actually, he
started the path to secular state by reducing the extent of jurisdiction
of sharia courts and collating and formalizing non-sharia law
(Mecelle). It was he who attempted first simplification in clumsy Ottoman
alphabet and invented a simplified version (Enveriye).
He was a talented organizer who overhauled Turkish Army after
ignomious defeat at Balkan Wars. He expelled about 4 thousand officers
from Army in two years and reorganized it completely.
In that respect, he can be partially credited for the performance of
Ottoman armies in the war. However, as a general, he was disasterous.
The attack, he personally planned and conducted at Eastern front in 1916
ended with death of 80000 Turkish Soldiers by freezing in two weeks only.
In 1918, he left Istanbul with a German submarine. After that, he and
Union and Progress Party was politically finished. Actually, when
nationalists started in 1919, the most serious charge against them was that
they are Unionist (Ittihatci) and would push country again to a new
adventure and ruin it. Mustafa Kemal Pasha and his cadre had to swear
publicly to denounce all their ties to Union and Progress party.
Enver and Mustafa Kemal have been personal rivals since 1908 revolution.
Although Enver reputedly said Mustafa Kemal was the only person
who could replace him after him, he wasn't very eager to precipitate
that day. Enver had definitely much more fiery and showy personality than
Mustafa Kemal at least in pre-1915 years.
Enver Pasha was a man of grandiose projects who couldn't understand
the Empire was finished. Mustafa Kemal was exactly opposite.
It was their destiny to clash in those turbulent years. One had to lose.
Murat H. Eskiyerli
--
Murat H. Eskiyerli
Postgraduate Research Student
Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering
Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine
http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/research/information/www/mhe/mhe.html
Mohammad Noorul Islam
>appreciate the benefits of living under Ottoman rule.
>back from the Ottoman occupation forces.
This statement of yours is good proof that Turks did well
do dissociate themselves from the Arabs. Why do you
complain then?
>exists as a sovereign state today is because the British
>and their allies decided that the "sick man of Europe"
>had been sufficiently dismembered . . . not because
>Ataturk managed to pull some rabbit trick out of his
>hat . . . despite what your state propaganda machine
>keeps reiterating about your hero.
And how did you reach this conclusion? Mustafa Kemal
definitely worked harder and paid more for his independence
than any Arab leader. I have never been to Turkey, so
never got exposed to Turkish state propaganda.
>Ataturk was explicitly
>against the concept of Turkey as an Islamic state . . .
>why else would he change the Turkish alphabet from
>Arabic script to Cyrillic?
First of all he was right in opposing the institution
of Islam in Turkey. But is it important that to be
Muslim, one has to write their language in Arabic
script? This last sentence of yours Mr.Shirawi is
very telling of your outlook. For you pan-Islamism
(which I think you endorse) also means the dominance
of Arab thinking and Arab culture over the rest of
the "Muslim" world. The people of Turkey did well
to reject it, and I certainly hope that we in Pakistan
liberate ourselves from the religious yoke of the Arabs.
Let me reiterate that I have nothing against individual
Arabs and am an eager student of their language and
culture. On the other hand I find the Arab world in
general still in an uneducated and unenlightened state.
I unabashedly attribute this problem to Islam, and its
rigid implimentation in Arab society. Unfortunately
enough the Arabs of past generations gave this unwelcome
gift to many other nations who now share this sorry state.
The problem is not the Arab culture in itself insofar
as Arab culture can be separated from Islam. Arab poetry
has always been very deep and left a lasting imprint
on Persian and Urdu poetic traditions. This is just one
example. Let me reiterate that the problem is Islam
or any other form of superstition, and the Muslim world
will do well without it.
Regards
Mohammad Noorul Islam
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <321BCC...@ix.netcom.com>, <han...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi wrote:
>>
>> I don't only smile for the camera (b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>>
>> : So what if it is true that Mustafa Kemal is jew or not does that make him
>> : a bad person? Karl Marx was of Jewish origin but did not believe in
>> : Judaism. Antoun Sa'ada the Syro-Lebanese Pan-Arabist was born Christian,
>> : but he had his own opinions.... I really dont see how a person born
>> : muslim any better than Mustafa Kemal where he is Jew or not.... Turkey
>> : has been modernised by Mustafa Kemal and go and visit Turkey and see...
>>
>> What is relevant is that he was a Euro-asskisser who
>> saddled his nation with the "wanna be Euro" mentality
>> for the next few generations. I'm glad that the new
>> government of Turkey is of a decidedly Islamic nature.
>>
>> As for Ataturk . . . he was an opportunistic dictator
>> who took it upon himself to force his countrymen to
>> think, speak and write according to his own peculiar
>> brand of ideology. He convinced Turks to run away
>> from their own history, simply because they were
>> facing an epiphany.
>>
>> Saif Al-Shirawi.
>
He too was a secret Jew. Furthermore, he took Turkish soldiers into
death by purpose which Hitler (another Jew) mimicked the same way. The
issue is that Zionist Jews have been posing as natives and sending the
natives into war in conspiracy with the secret Jews on the other side.
If we don't learn the real history, they will repeat the same scheme
over and over, as a tool for ethnic cleansing, genocide. AtaDoenmeh
Mustafa Kemal sent Turks into front lines to die, making them believe
they were to save their country.
>He was the man to put Turkey into its modern status, his intention was
>not to make Turkey as part of Europe. His death give Mustfa Kemal the
>free hand to converted into its previous status. Enver Pasha, Moslem hero
>who died in the battle agaist the oppression of the Moslem people in the
>former Soviet Union, will be buried in his Mother land soon. The Russian
A bunch of bullshit. The massacrer of Armenians, Talaat Pasha, a member
of the Young Turks, was a secret Jew as well. They did it, and then
blamed it on the Turks. As a matter of fact, the secret Jews had taken
over the Ottoman Empire family in early 1300s. So, your entire strain
of Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews.
>are not allowing his body to be escavated from the Moslem Area of the
>former Soviet Union. But pressure from the present Moslem Government in
>Turkey is prevailing.
>
>Salah Jafar
>
>Salah Jafar
Cluster User
of course it is irrelevant politically whether m. kemal was a secret jew or
not. if the point is that he might have been secretly practicing judaism (as
opposed to being just of having jewish ancestors), that might be relevant
only in doing a psychological study of him. one must consider not just m.
kemal, but the kemalist movement as a whole.
other communist, radical and bourgeois states with a muslim population,
including some arab states, have carried out some of the reforms of
republican turkey or reforms similar to it. the reason the turkish model
arouses passions was the manner in which it was done and some aspects of the
ideological justifications for it. this is the replacement of islam with a
eurocentered, particularly anti-arab, turkish nationalism. this is evident in
the labeling of the arab revolt by some of the turkish posters in this thread
(which is the "official" line) as 'a stab in the back" or as an act of
treason. clearly the arab revolt was justified (except from an imperial
ottoman point of view) and was an act independent of religion. if the
secularism, republicanism and non-irridentism of these turkish posters were
sincere then they should have appreciated the arab revolt. their attacks
support the conclusion that secularism is not the only thing on their minds.
one cannot compare the situation in the arab lands then to that of anatolia
right after WWI. the nationalist movement in anatolia involved what remained
of the imperial army and it was staffed with its generals. among other things
it also had the advantage of being near the imperial center, whereas the arab
lands were part of the impoverished periphery.
the arab and other non-turkish posters should however, be more specific
and less personality centered in their criticisms. also apealing to islamic
goals to people who are not enthusiastic about them is counterproductive.
RK
M. Murat Albayrakoglu
mhab...@homer.louisville.edu wrote:
[...]
> Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain English or
> you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus (pbuh) or MOses
> (pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare you?
[...]
Dear Sir:
I guess you don't know what "bastard" means. >;->>
Otherwise, you wouldn't have referred to a bastard
as "pbuh." >:->ROTFL
Murat
PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
Cluster User
In article <4vmel0$8...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, fa...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
says...
I understand your point, but as I said in my previous post the real issue is
somewhat different.
>Remind me to illuminate you on the origins of the Ottoman
>Empire . . . according to authoritative historical texts,
out of curiosity: do.
>not Turkish school books. And by the way . . . spare
>me the crap about Islam . . . Ataturk was explicitly
>against the concept of Turkey as an Islamic state . . .
true.
>why else would he change the Turkish alphabet from
>Arabic script to Cyrillic? Sorry to deflate your
it was changed to a modified roman (1927). actually the first recent change
of alphabet by a turkic language was azeri turkish (quite similar to the
turkish of turkey). the azerbaijan ssr adopted a modified roman script 1920.
as for other muslims, albanians had already started writing their language on
a roman model, prefering it to an arabic model, much earlier. not that I am
in any way belittling the remarkable versatility of the arabic script, and
its marvelous adaption to arabic. I would be the last one to do that. I am
merely stating the linguistic policies of various states. other changes from
arabic script to roman script include malay in malaysia, hausa in nigeria,
swahili along the african coast and somali in somalia, which is a non-arabic
speaking member of the arab league. what distinguishes these alphabet changes
from the turkish one is that traditional usages of the arabic script have
been kept alive (I even noticed a minor case of this in the soviet republics
under soviet power). In turkey the change of alphabet was not viewed as a
mere spelling reform (there was dissatisfaction at the not very standard and
somewhat poorly adapted way words other than those of arabic or persian
origin were spelt) but as an essential part in implementing state ideology
and the reform was accompanied by chauvinist rhetoric and by fostering the
belief that the script reflected arab intellectual inferiority. again it was
how it was done rather than what was done.
>fantasies. By the way . . . I'll gladly cite the
>sources which disprove your idiotic views. Just
>ask.
>
>
>Saif Al-Shirawi.
another point about islam in turkey: islam was rejected as an essential
part of bourgeois ideology (attempts to create bourgeoisified and
"nationalised" versions of islam have not been very succesful, although that
is what the state's department of religious affairs is supposed to do)
however, islam has been allowed to flourish in the vast rural areas, where it
is an instrument of the feudal remnants and among the city proletariat as an
instrument against the spread of "communism". so turkish policy has been that
of restricting and "nationalising" islam rather than actualy abolishing it.
as for the anti-europeanism of the main religious party, this is a new
factor designed to gather votes from legitimate resentment against unchecked
imperialist encrouchment. It does not seem to be a very sincere policy. in
the past it was very pro-west, concerning itself with fighting "communism". a
non-doctrinaire, vaguely socialist party that now appeals mainly to solve the
kurdish crisis offers better hope for solidarity with the peoples of the
middle east.
RK (not claiming to be a turk)
Cluster User
In article <4vn2sk$h...@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, rana says...
>
>fa...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi) wrote:
>
>
>>Amazing how we had the temerity to take our own land
>>back from the Ottoman occupation forces.
>
>in the back.
>
the issue goes back much earlier. arab patriots were comrades in arms with
the CUP (committee for union and progress - "young turks") against the
autocracy of abdulhamid II. after 1908, the arab patriots were betrayed when
presenting their democratic demands and the CUP replaced the previous
autocracy with turkish nationalism. also they considered arab lands as a
periphary ready to be given away to imperialist encrouchment. as the crisis
deepened, arab patriots, who were manouvering for their rights between the
ottoman and european imperialsits were summarily executed by the CUP, leaving
the field open for the more mercenary hashimites who later betrayed the arab
people.
RK
>Ahmad.
>
Musa Hossein
Dear Begum Hasina:
I am sure you are very busy rounding up your father's killers, raiding
dorms at Dhaka University, and so forth. But I sure do hope that one of
these days, you will look at SCB and read this letter to you.
I am writing this out of concern for Bangladesh--its past, present and
future. Do you figure, in all the politicking that you do in the name
of patriotism, you could, maybe if it is not too much trouble, give the
weary people a break, and help them rebuild a economy that is going to
pot?
Do you think for one day you could propose to the political parties the
following: As long as AL is in power, please co-operate with us, and if
in the next FAIR election, we loose, we will cooperate like wise? Would
that be too difficult to ask? then again, would it be possible for you
to clean up the DU campus, confiscate arms from not only the student
suppoerters of other parties but also those of your own? Do you think
it might be possible for you to set aside a part of maybe the Ramna
Maidan for student protests, political get-togethers so that politics
is totally removed from the campus, so that innocent students are not
dragged into politics?
Do you really feel your party or any other party has the right to drag
students under their umbrella by exploiting their poverty? Do you know
what that does? it destroys dreams of families, not just the
individual. I had a good friend, who did extremely well in SSC and HSC.
Then, you know what happened? he came to DU and for want of money, he
joined politics. That was not the worst part; the worst part was that
his father sold precious land to try and help him. But in vain;
politics and driven him out of academia, and into the streets for
processions and all the other insanity that is sponsored by political
parties using gullible students. Do you think you will ever reflect on
such things?
Do you want a nation of dropouts, bums and thugs? Do you want
Bangladesh to be another Somalia? the butt of David Letterman's jokes?
Do you care that so many nations in Asia are marching ahead
economically with phenomenal GNP's whereas Bangaldesh is still a
fucking beggar? Do you feel happy in asking for handouts, and weapons
to finance your thugs?
Do feel comfortable in knowing that many of the best of Bangldesh are
living abroad or trying to get out, because they are unable to utilize
their talent due to curroption and political chaos; and those who
cannot curse politicians like you, who by calling chaos and hartal,
take away their daily bread?
Tell me, when there is a hartal, do you eat? Do you care, if a rickshaw
puller eats? if he can't then do you send volunteers with bread to feed
them, because they dare not ply their rickshaws for fear of destruction
by mobs agitated by your co-horts in politics? Is this really for
Bangladesh? Who do you call the hartals for? the beggars? the landless?
the pushcart vendors? who really needs the destruction of BRTC buses?
the college students? the 9-5 workers? the old and the invalid? Do you
really give a damm?
Do you still want Bangladesh asking for foreign aid after 25 years of
independence? Don't you feel ashamed? As prime minister I am sure, you
will be attending functions abroad. Will you be able to stand tall as
you beg? Wouldn't it be nice if you had something positive to say? For
example a chaos free first year (and all the coming years) with a
growth in the industrial sector. Do you really want all the foreign
investor who are key to our survival go to other countries because of
our political instability?
By the way, I am sorry about your father, and your brother Russell. You
know he was my class mate when I was in University Laboratory School in
Nilkhet. We were friends, and had our occasional differences. May he
rest in peace. I had hoped that that would be the last time we would
see chaos in Bangladesh, but no matter who takes power, the ghost of
the past seems to haunt this poor wretched nation. I hope you will
break the cycle.
Peace..
Mohammad Noorul Islam
ra...@altair.com (Rafay Khan) wrote:
>Mohammad Noorul Islam (mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu) wrote:
>Mohammed started a revolution in Arabia. A revolution that
>did away with supersitions and traditions of old arabia.
>Islam overturned the status quo like many other revolutions
>and gave unprecedented rights to its people.
>The arabs unfettered by supersitions and bogus traditions,
>swept the world and created the arabic empire (not the muslim).
>There reason for success was not the hijab, purdah or the huddod
>ordinace but justice and equality to all its people.
I will grant you that Muhammad was a revolutionary who
changed the status quo in Arabia. But IMO (and that's
where you disagree with me I guess) he didn't do much
in the way of removing superstition, but just replaced
one set of superstitions with another. Much of the pagan
liturgy was kept intact (Tawaaf of Ka'bah, slaughtering
of animals, stoning the minaret, etc.). He did introduce
a more sophisticated (not necessarily more just) legal
system, based on the Judaic tradition, but retained
some Arab tribal character in it. He united Arabs
and gave them a national identity by concocting a story.
That was the main reason why Arabs conquered the world,
and not the mythical equality and justice that it's
supposed to offer.
>Well centuries have passed and the arabs (and some other muslim countries)
>think that the path to greatness is going back to old traditions .....
>Unlike mohamed who broke the status quo, Islam is intent on bringing it back.
>so don't blame mohammed or islam of the 600AD but the practicing muslims of
>today who belive that the path to salvation is going backwards instead
>of forwards.
I somewhat agree. See, the problem is that although Islam was a
movement in the "forward" direction -insofar as it broke the
status quo and brought some cohesion to Arab society- Muhammad's
claim of prophethood and the eternality of his message went
a long way towards inhibiting any future social progress.
The interference of his religion in every department of life
added to its rigidity. In the final assessment, Muhammad
did make a significant contribution to the Arab culture, but
also left a harmful legacy as demagogues and charlatans usually
do.
You can't blame Muhammad for the current retrogression of
the Islamic world, any more than you can blame Muslims themselves
for their superstition and fanaticism. You can't blame Islam
in that Islam is not a person, but Islam has gone a long way
towards legitimizing and perpetuating intolerance and
narrowmindedness in Muslim societies.
Mohammad Noorul Islam
Y Rapido
Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
> A bunch of bullshit. The massacrer of Armenians, Talaat Pasha, a member
> of the Young Turks, was a secret Jew as well. They did it, and then
> blamed it on the Turks. As a matter of fact, the secret Jews had taken
> over the Ottoman Empire family in early 1300s. So, your entire strain
> of Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews.
rap: Wasselam. I think many people here are confusing some names with
ideologies and vice versa. It appears that "being a Jew" here is perhaps
a very bad euphemism for some other characteristics; The expression used
for Ottoman Emperors can be understood in two (or more?) basic ways, that
"being a Jew" was:
a) indeed being a Jew, by ethnicity/nation/religion or whatever; or
b) practicing an oligarchic method, commonly known as a Byzantine method
or even from older days, known as "the whore of the Babylon" and widely
generalized
It is not very likely that Ottoman Emperors were "secred Jews" at all. They
were Oligarchs, Dynastic rulers, Emperors and such. In order to practice
oligarchic method in ruling people, one merely needs to be in that mold,
and not neccessarily be a Jew, or any other religion/ethnic group, and so
on and so forth.
So, when Mustafa Soysal writes that "Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews" he is
right ONLY if he states that Ottoman Khalifs were OLIGARCHS -- and
not neccessarily Jews at all ! It is true that Jews were coloborating with
the Oligarchy in the Ottoman Empire; they had a high ranking status given to
them. They were a tool of the Oligarchy. Similar role is a role of the
Zionists today. Let us not say Jews, because it is not fair -- we must use
terminology that describes POLITICAL agenda, and not make the wide sweeping
generalizations.
Oligarchy is an Oligarchy, and it is about time for people to recognize
that Ottoman Empire was an EMPIRE, run by OLIGARCHY and not some imaginary
"islamic Khalifate", or some imaginary "islamic wanderland" based on justice,
goodness of all sorts and such ...
Empires were run by OLIGARCHY -- they were not Republic(s) [Republic is here
defined in layman's terms as a state which is run by a freely, popularly
elected and short-cyclically re-elected individuals chosen amongst all people,
who rule by constitution and constitutionally derived and supported LAWS. ]
Empires were ruled by Oligarchs at all times, thoughout thousands of years.
As for Mustafa Kemal, some of his actions in establishing a REPUBLIC were
closer to true Islam than ANY Arab Oligarch haS ever been to this day --
ESPECIALLY today!
Adam
Mohammad Noorul Islam wrote:
>. He ( Mohammed ) united Arabs
> and gave them a national identity by concocting a story.
> That was the main reason why Arabs conquered the world,
> and not the mythical equality and justice that it's
> supposed to offer.
How funny to consider concocting a story to be the main reason
for the spread of islam into almost the entrie world,
Ok, if he convinced the arabs,
How did he convinced so easily the other nations who embraced islam,
Many muslim countries where cristians or other religions,
Many of them where very intellegent,
they embraced islam, adored it, defended it,
built a great civilization,
That civilziation was the key reason for the current
western civilization,
All that by concocting a story..!! how funny..say something convincing..!!
The problem is that you talk so confidently as a philosipher,,
I advice you to read islamic history in a better way,,and read more about islam..
You people can not understand that the current muslims are not practicing islam properly,
many of them have drifted from the correct path, they invented many wrong practices that
islam reject it,
You have the right to blame islam if you convinced me that current muslims are really
applying the correct islam.
Regards,
********
Adams
********
The bravest thing men do is love women
On 28 Aug 1996, Rafay Khan wrote:
> Mohammad Noorul Islam (mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu) wrote:
>
> : Let me reiterate that I have nothing against individual
> : Arabs and am an eager student of their language and
> : culture. On the other hand I find the Arab world in
> : general still in an uneducated and unenlightened state.
> : I unabashedly attribute this problem to Islam, and its
> : rigid implimentation in Arab society. Unfortunately
> : enough the Arabs of past generations gave this unwelcome
> : gift to many other nations who now share this sorry state.
> : The problem is not the Arab culture in itself insofar
> : as Arab culture can be separated from Islam. Arab poetry
> : has always been very deep and left a lasting imprint
> : on Persian and Urdu poetic traditions. This is just one
> : example. Let me reiterate that the problem is Islam
> : or any other form of superstition, and the Muslim world
> : will do well without it.
>
>
> Mohammed started a revolution in Arabia. A revolution that
> did away with supersitions and traditions of old arabia.
> Islam overturned the status quo like many other revolutions
> and gave unprecedented rights to its people.
--He gave some rights and took away some.... He stopped the kiling of
young girls but made women's testimonies virtually useless and than he
went and invaded his neighbours in Syria and made the Jacobite Christians
who called for help initially second class citizens forced to pay a
protection tax. It sounds like the Mafia "Pay us and we will protect you
Capisce?" And poor Zoroastrians of Persia they were considered pagans and
were attacked. Many Churches got turned into mosques and Zoroastrian
temples destroyed and you call that rights? Also, in Islam they believe
in something called Jinn which is neither in the Old Testament or New.
That sounds like superstition to me. So, where are those fundamental
rights besides the occasional slave freeing and stopping of child burial
in Arabia. By the way, we didn't bury children in the Syrian region like
the Mecca people did... They didn't need a revolution in that part
because they already had universities...
Also, don't forget when some people abandoned Islam after Mohammed's
death they faced death or to live they had to reconvert because it was
Mohammed's edict. I hardly call that giving people rights.
> The arabs unfettered by supersitions and bogus traditions,
> swept the world and created the arabic empire (not the muslim).
> There reason for success was not the hijab, purdah or the huddod
> ordinace but justice and equality to all its people.
---Maybe the Arabs needed it but certainly not their neighbours.
It was no more just than the Spanish inquistion was on Muslims... Please
don't make a joke of human suffering created in this region.
> Well centuries have passed and the arabs (and some other muslim countries)
> think that the path to greatness is going back to old traditions .....
> Unlike mohamed who broke the status quo, Islam is intent on bringing it back.
---Do you know that a lot of the great scientists of the Islamic Empire
were originally Persian, Assyrians, some Arabs, and a few North Africas
any Empire that big can do that...
> so don't blame mohammed or islam of the 600AD but the practicing muslims of
> today who belive that the path to salvation is going backwards instead
> of forwards.
---Yes, I do blame Mohammed and Islam. Khomeini is only trying to follow
Mohammed's orders and look what it is doing to us who don't want anything
to do with Iran. Look at the slavery in Sudan where non-muslims have
been sold into slavery in war time... We have had enough of religion
mixing with governments....
> srk
>
>
Basil
han...@ix.netcom.com
Rafay Khan wrote:
>
> Mohammad Noorul Islam (mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu) wrote:
>
> : Let me reiterate that I have nothing against individual
> : Arabs and am an eager student of their language and
> : culture. On the other hand I find the Arab world in
> : general still in an uneducated and unenlightened state.
> : I unabashedly attribute this problem to Islam, and its
> : rigid implimentation in Arab society. Unfortunately
> : enough the Arabs of past generations gave this unwelcome
> : gift to many other nations who now share this sorry state.
> : The problem is not the Arab culture in itself insofar
> : as Arab culture can be separated from Islam. Arab poetry
> : has always been very deep and left a lasting imprint
> : on Persian and Urdu poetic traditions. This is just one
> : example. Let me reiterate that the problem is Islam
> : or any other form of superstition, and the Muslim world
> : will do well without it.
>
> Mohammed started a revolution in Arabia. A revolution that
> did away with supersitions and traditions of old arabia.
> Islam overturned the status quo like many other revolutions
> and gave unprecedented rights to its people.
>
> swept the world and created the arabic empire (not the muslim).
> There reason for success was not the hijab, purdah or the huddod
> ordinace but justice and equality to all its people.
>
> think that the path to greatness is going back to old traditions .....
> Unlike mohamed who broke the status quo, Islam is intent on bringing it back.
>
> today who belive that the path to salvation is going backwards instead
> of forwards.
>
May I ask what religion do you paractice?, since you have proven time and time again of
your low opinion of Islam and the practitioner of Islam. I would like to know what do you
practice that set you apart and above Islamic religion. What religion or state of the art
organization you have conjoined to prefect your religion or what ever God you Chase. What
contribution your esteem religion or the thing you prey to, have contributed to humanity?
so I can line up and start converting to the light you see. I am for one, most anxious
to develop this talent that you have absorbed through th ingeious way you discoved about
the barbarism that you hgave alleged about the practioiner of Islam. Once you fill me in
of your conceivable solution and alternative to Islam than we going to have a long
genuine discussion about you and me. Because I think I have found the easy we to enter
haven through you.
Salah Jafar
Mohammad Noorul Islam
Adam <ACQ...@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>How funny to consider concocting a story to be the main reason
>for the spread of islam into almost the entrie world,
>Ok, if he convinced the arabs,
>How did he convinced so easily the other nations who embraced islam,
>Many muslim countries where cristians or other religions,
>Many of them where very intellegent,
>they embraced islam, adored it, defended it,
>built a great civilization,
>That civilziation was the key reason for the current
>western civilization,
>All that by concocting a story..!! how funny..say something convincing..!!
>
>The problem is that you talk so confidently as a philosipher,,
>I advice you to read islamic history in a better way,,and read more about islam..
Thanks for the advice.
>You have the right to blame islam if you convinced me that current muslims are really
>applying the correct islam.
No, I have a right to blame whoever, regardless of whether
I convince you or not.
Mohammad Noorul Islam
han...@ix.netcom.com
The bravest thing men do is love women wrote:
>
> On 28 Aug 1996, Rafay Khan wrote:
>
> > Mohammad Noorul Islam (mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu) wrote:
> >
> > : Let me reiterate that I have nothing against individual
> > : Arabs and am an eager student of their language and
> > : culture. On the other hand I find the Arab world in
> > : general still in an uneducated and unenlightened state.
> > : I unabashedly attribute this problem to Islam, and its
> > : rigid implimentation in Arab society. Unfortunately
> > : enough the Arabs of past generations gave this unwelcome
> > : gift to many other nations who now share this sorry state.
> > : The problem is not the Arab culture in itself insofar
> > : as Arab culture can be separated from Islam. Arab poetry
> > : has always been very deep and left a lasting imprint
> > : on Persian and Urdu poetic traditions. This is just one
> > : example. Let me reiterate that the problem is Islam
> > : or any other form of superstition, and the Muslim world
> > : will do well without it.
> >
> >
> > Mohammed started a revolution in Arabia. A revolution that
> > did away with supersitions and traditions of old arabia.
> > Islam overturned the status quo like many other revolutions
> > and gave unprecedented rights to its people.
>
> young girls but made women's testimonies virtually useless and than he
> went and invaded his neighbours in Syria and made the Jacobite Christians
> who called for help initially second class citizens forced to pay a
> protection tax. It sounds like the Mafia "Pay us and we will protect you
> Capisce?" And poor Zoroastrians of Persia they were considered pagans and
> were attacked. Many Churches got turned into mosques and Zoroastrian
> temples destroyed and you call that rights? Also, in Islam they believe
> in something called Jinn which is neither in the Old Testament or New.
> That sounds like superstition to me. So, where are those fundamental
> rights besides the occasional slave freeing and stopping of child burial
> in Arabia. By the way, we didn't bury children in the Syrian region like
> the Mecca people did... They didn't need a revolution in that part
> because they already had universities...
> Also, don't forget when some people abandoned Islam after Mohammed's
> death they faced death or to live they had to reconvert because it was
> Mohammed's edict. I hardly call that giving people rights.
>
>
> > swept the world and created the arabic empire (not the muslim).
> > There reason for success was not the hijab, purdah or the huddod
> > ordinace but justice and equality to all its people.
>
> It was no more just than the Spanish inquistion was on Muslims... Please
> don't make a joke of human suffering created in this region.
>
> > think that the path to greatness is going back to old traditions .....
> > Unlike mohamed who broke the status quo, Islam is intent on bringing it back.
>
> were originally Persian, Assyrians, some Arabs, and a few North Africas
> any Empire that big can do that...
>
> > today who belive that the path to salvation is going backwards instead
> > of forwards.
>
> Mohammed's orders and look what it is doing to us who don't want anything
> to do with Iran. Look at the slavery in Sudan where non-muslims have
> been sold into slavery in war time... We have had enough of religion
> mixing with governments....
>
> > srk
> >
> >
Basil
If Islam is so wicked as you calim, why is it one of the fastest growing
religion in the world?. Not long ago, I met a reporter by the name of
Steve Sosebee who arrived to Gaza to due a story on the palestinian
plight. In the course of his research this Catholic reporter, within 2
month of arrival converted and embraced Islam as the true and only
religion. We did not put the Guns to his head. He even Started an
organization called the Islamic relief Agency. search and you shall find.
If you like to get hold of that reporter let me know. Our Mosques in
America are everywhare and on the rise, we are not building an empire
based on greed and fraud as we seen in Jimmy swagger and Jim Baker and
other like him. We don't neel to the pope, we neel to Allah (SW). Our
religion is based on humanity and love for our childern and the future of
our childern. Mohammed did not Murder 79 million Aztec's indian in the
name of christ, as we so in Mexico and through out north America. We did
not used the sowred to convert Indonesia which has the Largest Moslem
Comminity in the world. Through out our Islamic civilization, we built Ya
Sayed Basil, and we educated and contributed to humanity through the
devine word of God. Show me what did you have accomplish beside blaming
moslems for your stupid plunders. Everyone of you arrive to America, and
the first thing come out of your mouth, is "we are seeking asylem,
because we are being oppressed by the Moslems". try again, old story.
Salah Jafar
The above is my opinion only
Mohammad Noorul Islam
Ahmad Rana <rana> wrote:
>Even though the principles of the religion postulated by the
>prophet were a step forward, and completely overhauled the
>christian religion, still the philosophy was based on the same
>lines as all the other major religions originating in that region,
>e.g. Judaism, Christianity etc. And even though the new religion
>was a step forward, it still did not go all the way to be called
>really revolutionary. For example, it fixed some rights for the
>slaves, but did not abolish slavery. The concept of women-slaves
>can not be justified on any basis, but the rights their owners
>have over them are revolting. Therefore, the religion was only
>reformative at best, but definitely not revolutionary.
Just a small comment. To asses the revolutionary impact of
Islam, the Islamic Arabia has to be compared to pre-Islamic
Arabia. It is clear that a tremendous change, not short of
a revolution did take place. On the world level, I agree that
Islam didn't bring anything too new.
Mohammad Noorul Islam
Khaled or Omar
Mohammed Hasanuzzaman wrote:
>
> Good passionate posting. Thanks for objective thinking and civil language.
>
> Mohammed Hasanuzzaman
I second that.
Khaled.
Ahmad Rana
Mohammad Noorul Islam <mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
>I will grant you that Muhammad was a revolutionary who
>changed the status quo in Arabia. But IMO (and that's
>where you disagree with me I guess) he didn't do much
>in the way of removing superstition, but just replaced
>one set of superstitions with another. Much of the pagan
>liturgy was kept intact (Tawaaf of Ka'bah, slaughtering
>of animals, stoning the minaret, etc.). He did introduce
>a more sophisticated (not necessarily more just) legal
>system, based on the Judaic tradition, but retained
>and gave them a national identity by concocting a story.
>That was the main reason why Arabs conquered the world,
>and not the mythical equality and justice that it's
>supposed to offer.
Even though the principles of the religion postulated by the
prophet were a step forward, and completely overhauled the
christian religion, still the philosophy was based on the same
lines as all the other major religions originating in that region,
e.g. Judaism, Christianity etc. And even though the new religion
was a step forward, it still did not go all the way to be called
really revolutionary. For example, it fixed some rights for the
slaves, but did not abolish slavery. The concept of women-slaves
can not be justified on any basis, but the rights their owners
have over them are revolting. Therefore, the religion was only
reformative at best, but definitely not revolutionary.
Ahmad.
Mohammed Hasanuzzaman
Cluster User
In article <3224B6E3...@eedsp.gatech.edu>, ha...@eedsp.gatech.edu
says...
>
>so...@indyvax.iupui.edu wrote:
>> In article <4vl0dj$h...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, raf...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
(Rafat Sadiq) writes:
>> > In article <4vi48p$3...@lib107.its.rpi.edu>,
>> > Kerem Mustafa Un <u...@lib107.its.rpi.edu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Today Turkey is the only Muslim country with a
^^^^^^
>> >>proper democratic system where man and women are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>legally equal, and anybody, no matter of what religion,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This claim is not completely true, or at least was not true
>5 years ago. I don't think it changed that much. In an
>article that I read back then (in one of these left wing/ intellectual
>magazines), there was a list of differences including
>a) Adultery
>b) Maternity leave
>c) Citizenship rights of children with one Turkish parent
>d) Military duty
>e) Divorce
>> >>is free to practise his/her religion, as long as it
>> >>doesn`t threaten the freedom of other people. That`s
>> >>what Ataturk had aimed and that`s what it is now.
>Ataturk aimed a completely western "bourgeois democracy"
>(God, I can't believe it I am using Marksist terminology:-)
>and he was not very successful.
In order to go on repeating this formula they keep on adding adjectives,
just in case an exception is found. notice now there is the qualification
"proper." so I guess any excetion you find will be challenged on that
ground. before you could challenge exceptions on grounds of not being truely
"muslim" or truely "democratic." I think the adjective "proper" could be
challenged in the case of turkey also.
RK
-Surensoy,E.
In inventing the three religions which are identical to each other,
there is no divine purpose or reason, but political and
emperialistic aspirations of hate merchants who invented them.
So, if one becomes a follower of one religion, one automatically
becomes the opponent of the other two, in most cases a staunch
enemy, and supporter and servent of the political and imperialistic
agenda of its inventor.
That is how countless number of innocent human beings suffered
incredible amount of violence and hardship for mileniums.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk advised the whole world by saying this:
"The citizens of the world must be educated to be free from
hatred, greed, and jealousy; this is the only way to achieve
peace at home and throughout the World".
../..
In article <50431a$1...@bignews.shef.ac.uk), Ahmad Rana <rana) wrote:
)Mohammad Noorul Islam <mis...@rowland.pha.jhu.edu) wrote:
)
))I will grant you that Muhammad was a revolutionary who
))changed the status quo in Arabia. But IMO (and that's
))where you disagree with me I guess) he didn't do much
))in the way of removing superstition, but just replaced
))one set of superstitions with another. Much of the pagan
))liturgy was kept intact (Tawaaf of Ka'bah, slaughtering
))of animals, stoning the minaret, etc.). He did introduce
))a more sophisticated (not necessarily more just) legal
))system, based on the Judaic tradition, but retained
))some Arab tribal character in it. He united Arabs
))and gave them a national identity by concocting a story.
))That was the main reason why Arabs conquered the world,
))and not the mythical equality and justice that it's
))supposed to offer.
)
)Even though the principles of the religion postulated by the
)prophet were a step forward, and completely overhauled the
)christian religion, still the philosophy was based on the same
)lines as all the other major religions originating in that region,
)e.g. Judaism, Christianity etc. And even though the new religion
)was a step forward, it still did not go all the way to be called
)really revolutionary. For example, it fixed some rights for the
)slaves, but did not abolish slavery. The concept of women-slaves
)can not be justified on any basis, but the rights their owners
)have over them are revolting. Therefore, the religion was only
)reformative at best, but definitely not revolutionary.
)
)Ahmad.
)
Jaffer Jamil
I really am not sure that you meant any disrespect to the Prophets Jesus
and Moses - as Moslems we are obligated to extend the sincerest
respects to both of them.
Cefer
M. Murat Albayrakoglu
On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jaffer Jamil wrote:
Merhaba Cefer,
Does it mean to be obligated to show sincerest respect to
prophets that it is O.K. to show disrespect to others for
Muslims? Also what difference does it make for a prophet
to be a bastard? Does it reduce the value of God's word
that the prophet has passed to the others?
Muslims are not only obligated to show sincerest respect
to prophets but also ordered to use their intellect. Had
your fellow Muslim who called M. Kemal "bastard" used his
intellect, he would have seen that, within the context of
history, those prophets were mere law makers with strong
charisma, during their respective time and within their
respective society. ("Din" is a Hebrew word which means
law). As a result, he would have made his point by comparing
such qualities of the individuals as statesmanship, world-
view, leadership etc. without using an abusive language.
Within the context of history, any child who did not have
a known human father is a bastard. In this sense, history
does not have to make any exception for a prophet. At best,
a historian may refer to a child without a known human
father with words such as "Legend says ..." in his or her
narration of the past. Thus he or she lets the readers use
their intellect to reflect upon what the legend does not
say.
Furthermore, your fellow Muslim would have refrained using
the word "bastard" to show not only disrespect to M. Kemal,
on religious--Islamic--grounds, but also what his--probably
Muslim--parents and educators ignored while raising him:
that is, using abusive words is bad per se if these are
bad words indeed.
Whereas both you and he regarded "bastard" as an abusive
word, had both of you used your intellect, you would have
seen that being a bastard is not a reason for others'
disrespect: according to Islam, every individual comes to
the world with a promise to God that he or she will not
follow Shaitan. In this regard, every child is innocent
irrespective of the sins of his or her parents. Therefore
there is no point in using "bastard" with an abusive tone
for a Muslim.
One last point: had you have been a responsible Muslim, and
used your intellect, not I but you would have written these
and criticized the weaknesses of your fellow Muslim's
attitude toward others on historical, religious and moral
grounds.
Best regards,
Ahmad Sony
YOU PEOPJaffer Jamil wrote:
>
> M. Murat Albayrakoglu wrote:
> >
> > mhab...@homer.louisville.edu wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain English or
> > > you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus (pbuh) or MOses
> > > (pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare you?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Dear Sir:
> >
> > I guess you don't know what "bastard" means. >;->>
> > Otherwise, you wouldn't have referred to a bastard
> > as "pbuh." >:->ROTFL
> >
> > Murat
> >
> > PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"Merhebe Murat,
>
> I really am not sure that you meant any disrespect to the Prophets Jesus
> and Moses - as Moslems we are obligated to extend the sincerest
> respects to both of them.
>
> Cefer
YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK- GET SOMETHING BETTER TO DO.
Hallaj
To all of you who keep this tgread living!
I am a subscriber of SCIranian. it is a long time we have patiently
read your articles under this thread. Without any discussion I just
accept that the subject of your discussion is relevant to us too. But
honestly, What does it have to do with SCBangeladeh or SCMaghreb?
Let's be more accurate when choosing groups to cross post?
Jaffer Jamil
Cenk Yildirim wrote:
>
> I really can not understand what is tried to be proven.
>
> Arab people always, as I observe, try to prove Turks always had leaders
> who are not Muslim .And as I observe they always want to mentio that they
> are more muslim then Turks.I personally do not want to talk about
> individuals but can Arabs show me a proper lear of them??
> Esad?,Saddam, Saudis?
>
> As I understand these kind of convictions just reflect the Arab
> nationalism of them not true Islamic feelings.Unfortunetly they escape
> from self-critism.
>
> But this is not new.Arabs betrayed to Caliphate in Istanbul in 1914.
> We Turks didnt forget the Akabe battle.Our Arab friends helped the English
> army to exterminate Ottoman forces.THe Arabs of 1914 also werent
> comportable with Caliphate, cause they were convinced that Caliphate
> should be Arab, and when they saw the beuty of English money they didnt
> wait a mintue and betrayed to Caliphate.This Arab betrayal resulted
> Ottomans to lose JEruselam.And brave Arabs couldnt even save that ccity
> casue they now started to fight against each other.So it is true to claim
> that Arabs have given Jeruselam to Israel, as a result of Betrayal to
> Caliphate.
>
> Why dont Arabs think of their betrayals ?
> Why always They try to convict others?
>
> Unfortunetly ,even today , they seem to have same habits.Why dont Arabs
> stop and think of their own problems?
Merhebe Cenk,
Perhaps it is because they are only 2 per cent of the Moslem world
population and given a true "Raye amma", as the beloved Prophet
prescribed, would be outvoted and there would always be a non-Arab
Moslem who would be Caliph. The betrayal of the Calipahte goes beyond
WW1 by the Arabs. It started when local chieftains allowed the British
to establish naval bases in the Ppersian Gulf and the Arabian Sea. A
fact, no doubt which contributed immensely to the logistical suppport
that British troopps received during the Indian War of Independence of
1857. As you know the Mutiny failed, the Moghal king was deposed,
the crown took over India. This also sealed the fate of India's Moslems
as 2nd class citizens foreever.
Jaffer (pakistani)
Jaffer Jamil
M. Murat Albayrakoglu wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jaffer Jamil wrote:
>
> :> M. Murat Albayrakoglu wrote:
> :>
> :> > mhab...@homer.louisville.edu wrote:
> :> >
> :> > [...]
> :> >
> :> > > Either you don't understand what is written in clear, plain
> :> > > English or you are fooling yourself. Do you want to compare Jesus
> :> > > (pbuh) or MOses (pbuh) with the bastard Mustafa Kemal? How dare
> :> > > you?
> :> >
> :> > [...]
> :> >
> :> > Dear Sir:
> :> >
> :> > I guess you don't know what "bastard" means. >;->>
> :> > Otherwise, you wouldn't have referred to a bastard
> :> > as "pbuh." >:->ROTFL
> :> >
> :> > Murat
> :> >
> :> > PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
> :>
> :>
> :> Merhebe Murat,
> :>
> :> I really am not sure that you meant any disrespect to the
> :> Prophets Jesus and Moses - as Moslems we are obligated to
> :> extend the sincerest respects to both of them.
> :>
> :> Cefer
>
>
> PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
Merhebe Murat,
By your own words you have rendered a left-handed apology for referring to
the prophets in a deprecating manner. Of course you took refuge behind
semantics - which is understandable. What does need to be pointed out is
that when we use words we usually do so according to the understanding
to the norm. Thus the word bastard has certain deperecating connotations
attached to it.
My fellow Moslems had no business referring to the legitimacy of any
politicians birth. On the scale of abominations, referring to the
prophets, Moses the Lawgiver and Jesus the Peacebringer, in a deprecating
manner would be greater. If you choose to ignore this admonition and cloak
your bad 'adaab' in a hot debate about semantics, I cant oblige you. BTW,
when I said "as Moslems we", I was referring to YOU and me and not the
gentleman who has so graciously inflamed you. Perhaps you arent one and I
trust offense was not taken for that. Perhaps you are from the Donmae
region. Tell me are you referring to yourself as one of those historians?
Anyway, thanks for your time.
Regards,
Cefer (Jaffer the Pakistani)
Jaffer Jamil
Hallaj wrote:
>
> To all of you who keep this tgread living!
>
> I am a subscriber of SCIranian. it is a long time we have patiently
> read your articles under this thread. Without any discussion I just
> accept that the subject of your discussion is relevant to us too. But
> honestly, What does it have to do with SCBangeladeh or SCMaghreb?
> Let's be more accurate when choosing groups to cross post?
SCMaghreb because they were owned by the Osmanlis; SCBanglaDEsh because
they are such immense intellectuals. :)
Jaffer
Dimitri
> > PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"Merhebe Murat,
>
> I really am not sure that you meant any disrespect to the Prophets Jesus
> and Moses - as Moslems we are obligated to extend the sincerest
> respects to both of them.
>
> Cefer
Glad to tell you that by being an atheïst, I can easily respect everyone
and anyone. Believing makes your lifes even more complex than it
already is.
Best regards,
Dimitri
-Surensoy,E.
Arab establishment that ruled the majority ordinary Arabs invented
Islam which is almost identical to the other two religions, Judaism
and Christianity, as a tool to advance their emperialistic agenda.
When one becomes Moslem, one by default becomes the staunch oppenent
of the other two religions and equally staunch enemy of people who
beleive them; and, as a result, servant and supporter of the
emperialistic agenda of the Arab establishment. Since the invention
of Islam, countless millions of tottally innocent Arab and non-Arab
peoples suffered immensely trapped in that hostility.
Turks and other non-Arab persons and nations, by accepting Islam
as a religion unconditionally and in turn becoming servant and
supporter of emperialism of Arab establishment, have done the most
stupid mistake in their entire lives. They had no business or benefit
what so ever in taking part in that savage hostility between Arab
versus Christian and Jewsish establishments.
If "Arab people prove Turks are not Moslem", that is too bad; Turks
have awakened and do not want to be in constant hostility with
rest of the World just to advance emperialism of Arab religion
and culture anymore. I am totally sick and tired of that nonsense,
Jihad vs Crusade.
We, the Turks today, want live our short lives on Earth in peace
and hormony with our fellow human beings regardless of race, gender,
color of skin, personal or national wealth, language, religion, etc
and totally free from hatred, greed, and jealousy toward each other.
Unfortunately we did not have such a chance when we were forced to
live under ultra fundamandalist Islamic Ottoman emperialism; now we
have our will and rule established; and we are free to live our lives
as we please, in peace and hormony with rest of the World.
../..
In article <322A9C...@earthlink.net),
Jaffer Jamil <jja...@earthlink.net) wrote:
)Cenk Yildirim wrote:
))
)) I really can not understand what is tried to be proven.
))
)) Arab people always, as I observe, try to prove Turks always had leaders
)) who are not Muslim .And as I observe they always want to mentio that they
)) are more muslim then Turks.I personally do not want to talk about
)) individuals but can Arabs show me a proper lear of them??
)) Esad?,Saddam, Saudis?
))
)) As I understand these kind of convictions just reflect the Arab
)) nationalism of them not true Islamic feelings.Unfortunetly they escape
)) from self-critism.
))
)) But this is not new.Arabs betrayed to Caliphate in Istanbul in 1914.
)) We Turks didnt forget the Akabe battle.Our Arab friends helped the English
)) army to exterminate Ottoman forces.THe Arabs of 1914 also werent
)) comportable with Caliphate, cause they were convinced that Caliphate
)) should be Arab, and when they saw the beuty of English money they didnt
)) wait a mintue and betrayed to Caliphate.This Arab betrayal resulted
)) Ottomans to lose JEruselam.And brave Arabs couldnt even save that ccity
)) casue they now started to fight against each other.So it is true to claim
)) that Arabs have given Jeruselam to Israel, as a result of Betrayal to
)) Caliphate.
))
)) Why dont Arabs think of their betrayals ?
)) Why always They try to convict others?
))
)) Unfortunetly ,even today , they seem to have same habits.Why dont Arabs
)) stop and think of their own problems?
)
)Merhebe Cenk,
)
)Perhaps it is because they are only 2 per cent of the Moslem world
)population and given a true "Raye amma", as the beloved Prophet
)prescribed, would be outvoted and there would always be a non-Arab
)Moslem who would be Caliph. The betrayal of the Calipahte goes beyond
)WW1 by the Arabs. It started when local chieftains allowed the British
)to establish naval bases in the Ppersian Gulf and the Arabian Sea. A
)fact, no doubt which contributed immensely to the logistical suppport
)that British troopps received during the Indian War of Independence of
)1857. As you know the Mutiny failed, the Moghal king was deposed,
)the crown took over India. This also sealed the fate of India's Moslems
)as 2nd class citizens foreever.
)
)Jaffer (pakistani)
Camel Driver
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Please remove Alt.Religion.Islam from this
thread since the topic doesn't really belong
here. Thanks.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proclaim: He is Allah the One and Only (Unique). All are dependent on Him and
he is independent of all. Niether has He an offspring, nor is He
the offspring of anyone; And none is equal with Him in rank.
-- Al Quran, The Book of Islam, Ch.112
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jaffer Jamil
Ahmad Sony wrote:
>
> YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK- GET SOMETHING BETTER TO DO.
Okay,
I am looking for work as a network administrator, are you hiring?
Jaffer
The bravest thing men do is love women
As far as I am concerned, the human race is sick and it is not my
fault they believe in violence.... But soon, soon the big event will
happen and new civilizations will be created out of the ashes... You will
all live to see the day....
Basil
han...@ix.netcom.com
The bravest thing men do is love women wrote:
>
Moon, form the unification world church. while sitting in the regional
mountain of south Korea, someone tapped him on the back. He turned
around, and holy be hold, it was Juses. Jesus said to him " Moon, you
are to take my message and spread the truth in the name of you GOD, ME".
Did he do the same to you Basil?. I would like for you to share your
wonderful story if you have one.
In my opinion, it is very shame, to use the name of the Messenger of GOD
for profit. But again, we are dealing with Hypocrite and swindlers all
over the world.
Totally my article
SJ
M. Murat Albayrakoglu
On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Jaffer Jamil wrote:
:> M. Murat Albayrakoglu wrote:
[...]
:> > Merhaba Cefer,
Merhaba Cefer,
I wonder from where you got those norms. I gave you two
arguments: one historical, and the other religious about
the concept of bastard. Tell me, if we did not use
norms established within the framework of some kind
of knowledge, where would we get them?
:> Thus the word bastard has certain deperecating connotations attached
:> to it.
Who attaches deperecating connotations to a word
according to which norm? I'm afraid that you use
Shaitan's teachings as a basis for your norms to
attach deperecating connotations to certain words.
:> My fellow Moslems had no business referring to the legitimacy of any
:> politicians birth. On the scale of abominations, referring to the
:> prophets, Moses the Lawgiver and Jesus the Peacebringer, in a
:> deprecating manner would be greater.
I am not sure whether you would like to see what is
missing above, but I wil ask it anyway: what is the
difference in using--I will follow your description--
a word with deperacating connotations attached to it
according to some norm inspired by someone/something,
who/that nobody knows, for two mortal beings whomever
they are? Why did you get bothered by one and feel
necessary to send a reply to my posting, but not by the
other, if this word itself has deperacating connotations
attached to it? Why is the word itself not enough to
stimulate your conscience? Why does the same word with
all its bad connotations act as a wake up call for your
conscience at a certain time, but your dear conscience
refuses to wake up and continues to hybernate some other
time?
:> If you choose to ignore this admonition and cloak your bad 'adaab' in
:> a hot debate about semantics, I cant oblige you. BTW, when I said "as
:> Moslems we", I was referring to YOU and me and not the gentleman who
:> has so graciously inflamed you.
I don't think that you have a right to refer to someone
else to something before asking what that someone is?
Neither do I think that you know this. Even if you ask
that question, I'm not sure whether you'll be able to see
that nobody owes you an answer.
:> Perhaps you arent one and I trust offense was not taken for that.
What I am is nobody's but my business. If you make a
mistake about it, you will live with its consequences.
:> Perhaps you are from the Donmae region.
Hey man! We had and still have our own zealots, who
think that they have found shelter in name calling, to
justify their self righteousness and lesser moralities,
in social.culture.turkish. Your kinda late to make any
significant impact other than taking up some time for
us to straighten up your soul by giving some exercise to
your lazy conscience.
:> Tell me are you referring to yourself as one of those historians?
It depends on what history means to you. Let me give
you a clue though: every statement in past tense is not
necessarily a historical statement, regardless of its
origin--despite some of these origins are Origins.
History has its own purpose and method.
:> Anyway, thanks for your time.
You're more than welcome.
Murat, the Turk
PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
:> Regards,
:>
:> Cefer (Jaffer the Pakistani)
The bravest thing men do is love women
On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 han...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> The bravest thing men do is love women wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Jaffer Jamil wrote:
> >
> > > Ahmad Sony wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK- GET SOMETHING BETTER TO DO.
> > >
> > > Okay,
> > >
> > > I am looking for work as a network administrator, are you hiring?
> > >
> > > Jaffer
> > >
> > >
> > As far as I am concerned, the human race is sick and it is not my
> > fault they believe in violence.... But soon, soon the big event will
> > happen and new civilizations will be created out of the ashes... You will
> > all live to see the day....
> >
> > BasilDon't tell me, Juses told you so. Their is this guy, his name is Sung
> Moon, form the unification world church. while sitting in the regional
> mountain of south Korea, someone tapped him on the back. He turned
> around, and holy be hold, it was Juses. Jesus said to him " Moon, you
> are to take my message and spread the truth in the name of you GOD, ME".
> Did he do the same to you Basil?. I would like for you to share your
> wonderful story if you have one.
>
---I have heard of Moon.... Anyway, it has been predicted by Nostradamus,
a 4th century priest, some scientists, also there is the alignment of the
planets that will occur... What would happen if the San Andreas fault
and shook you Salah Jafar out of your TV room and into the grave.... You
forget the ancient, proud civilization of Atlantis that disappeared...
Our world will not end, but I expect it to go through huge changes....
Stay in California Salah if you want, but I would not live there....
I am not saying there will be a yoam il kayama event, but I think
something big will happen, but many scientists already warn of what can
happen.... Humans learn very well through disaster.... They only
remember their creator and his true essence of unity of man and
humbleness when everything goes wrong....
We humans need something to wake us up to our corrupt nature and
hopefully start a new civilization.... As for me, I have no exact idea
of what will happen in the next decade, but the future is not a very
certain one as you think and I speak not of Moon of Korea or Jesus....
I have not used the name of any messenger:) I just think we humans
better realize how vulnerable we are.... We are only a small piece in
this large universe.... I still think people are crazy with the way they
abuse our planet and each other... We have the threat of global warning,
ice caps melting, earthquakes faults.... Do you really think it is far
fetched Salah that the world as you know it won't revolutionize in the
same way Ancient Greece all of sudden disappeared and just like your
cherished state of California and the US may no longer be the Rome it is
today. Don't take what you have for granted appreciate what life has to
offer you now...
Lakshmi Krishnamurthy
alt.2600
alt.teens.parenting
comp.ms-windows.programming
...
You seem to have missed crossposting to these newsgroups. They
will be dying to discuss Mustafa.
- Lakshmi N.
The bravest thing men do is love women
Hey people this is your friendly emailer wishing you a happy
commencement of school... Remember University is very important...
Friends will come and go sometimes and girlfriends, but you need those
grades.... Make the grade! But, of course, put some fun or you will feel
is worthless:) Take the opportunity and be successful! Keep away from
negative things.... Don't get stressed over what is happening too much in
Timbuktu it is not your fault and there is a limit to what you can do....
And don't worry about salah Jafar I think he uses this because he doenst
have nintendo and this is his substitute...
Basil:)
hferris
the statement regarding mohammed concocting a story to
to spread islam is so ignorant and stupid it does not deserve a
reply.
hassen
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <3223EF...@eskimo.com>, Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
>> A bunch of bullshit. The massacrer of Armenians, Talaat Pasha, a member
>> of the Young Turks, was a secret Jew as well. They did it, and then
>> blamed it on the Turks. As a matter of fact, the secret Jews had taken
>> over the Ottoman Empire family in early 1300s. So, your entire strain
>> of Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews.
>
>
>rap: Wasselam. I think many people here are confusing some names with
>ideologies and vice versa. It appears that "being a Jew" here is perhaps
>a very bad euphemism for some other characteristics; The expression used
>for Ottoman Emperors can be understood in two (or more?) basic ways, that
>"being a Jew" was:
>
>a) indeed being a Jew, by ethnicity/nation/religion or whatever; or
>
>b) practicing an oligarchic method, commonly known as a Byzantine method
>or even from older days, known as "the whore of the Babylon" and widely
>generalized
>
>It is not very likely that Ottoman Emperors were "secred Jews" at all. They
Has nothing to do with likelyhood. Thet were Jews, period. Emperors
Mehmet's ("Fetih" Sultan Mehmet) was a Jew from Italy (Stella), and his
staff who created the big guns used to take Byzantine were engineered by
sephardic Jews. Later on, Fetih himself was poisoned by his Doctor
Jacob. "Fetih" was a Jew since his mother was a Jew. But he was not
the first one in the Ottoman rule. Previously, the Jews had genocided
the other Turkish Clans of the Empire while serving under the Ottoman
rule. The Genocide of the entire Karaman Clan by them is the most well
known. They have systematically eliminated (read genocided) Turkish
population within the empire and tried to make it difficult tracing
themselves by moving everybody around the country by any excuse they
would get. After genociding the Karamans, they moved Greeks from
Istanbul to Karaman and replaced the Greeks by more Jews they moved over
from Spain to Istanbul.
>were Oligarchs, Dynastic rulers, Emperors and such. In order to practice
>oligarchic method in ruling people, one merely needs to be in that mold,
>and not neccessarily be a Jew, or any other religion/ethnic group, and so
>on and so forth.
>
>So, when Mustafa Soysal writes that "Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews" he is
>right ONLY if he states that Ottoman Khalifs were OLIGARCHS -- and
NO, racially they were Jews, and in religion, they were secret Jews.
>not neccessarily Jews at all ! It is true that Jews were coloborating with
>the Oligarchy in the Ottoman Empire; they had a high ranking status given to
>them. They were a tool of the Oligarchy. Similar role is a role of the
>Zionists today. Let us not say Jews, because it is not fair -- we must use
>terminology that describes POLITICAL agenda, and not make the wide sweeping
>generalizations.
Well, the sweeping majority of Jews are zionists or in support of
Zionizm, since they are not doing anything against them *and* they are
supporting their actions by providing the Jewish society as a power
structure for the zionists.
>
>Oligarchy is an Oligarchy, and it is about time for people to recognize
>that Ottoman Empire was an EMPIRE, run by OLIGARCHY and not some imaginary
>"islamic Khalifate", or some imaginary "islamic wanderland" based on justice,
>goodness of all sorts and such ...
>
>Empires were run by OLIGARCHY -- they were not Republic(s) [Republic is here
>defined in layman's terms as a state which is run by a freely, popularly
>elected and short-cyclically re-elected individuals chosen amongst all people,
I know of no system where the people elect popularly. In all systems,
the candidates are more or less appointed by the ruling Jews and since
they have a hold of all parties involved, there is no alternative. No
matter who you vote for, you will be voting for zionist Jews.
>who rule by constitution and constitutionally derived and supported LAWS. ]
yeah right...
>
>Empires were ruled by Oligarchs at all times, thoughout thousands of years.
>
>As for Mustafa Kemal, some of his actions in establishing a REPUBLIC were
>closer to true Islam than ANY Arab Oligarch haS ever been to this day --
>ESPECIALLY today!
What a truckload of shit you are delivering....
-Surensoy,E.
It is not likely that Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II was a Jew; he was
first of all an Ottoman by conviction and training, and a Eastern
European mutt, an offspring of parents of different East European
Christian races and uncertain ancestry; his mother was a slave ci
oncubibe Christian woman either captured as slave in Eastern Europe
or Armenian; the mother of his father, grand father, or all grand
grand fathers were also the same.
Abdul Hamid II is a good example; he was one of the most brutal
Ottoman bastards who terrorized his subjugated peoples, especially
the Turks, most brutally for 33 years from 1876 until 1909; he was
known as the Red Sultan for the blood of his innocent victims in
his hands and Bedros, or Peter in Armenian, because of his Armenian
features and his Armenian mother who was one of the may hunderds of
cuncubines of his father's women slave courters called harem. The
decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been
reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the early
moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great Ruler",
or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" to
the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations who
were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of oppression
and exploitation.
Another typical example was a man known by the name Barbarossa, a
very successful(!) Greek Christain corsair, and a renegate, at the
age of 67 or 68 converted valuntarily (of course to serve for his
own benefits) to become a Moslem (Ottoman style) and an Ottoman
Pasha to command the Ottoman naval fleets as the Ottoman Grand
Admiral.
Barbarossa was one of 4 sons of a former Ottoman devshirme (a
Janissary) during Suleiman II times born on the Greek Island of
Mytilene, the ancient Lesbos. His father was a young boy when Ottomans
abducted him from his Greek Christian parents to convert him to Moslem
and trained him to be a Janissary. After he retired, he returned to
his native island took up pottery for living and married the widow
of a Greek Orthodox priest who gave birth to his four sons, Ishak
the eldest who was a merchant, and the other three (Uruj, Khaireddin
known as Barbarossa, and Elisa) were corsairs.
Babarossa was certaily the role model and the leader of Ottoman
Naval force; in him, Ottoman system of oppression and emperialism
found a very valuable capability to enslave and plunder more innocent
peoples and countries. But the tottally unfair and unfortunate side
of this for Turks and Turkiye is that now, according to the Ottoman
propaganda taught in schools in Turkiye by the descendents of former
Ottomans as the Ottoman history, Barbarossa, the Greek Christian
corsair is being made to be known as "the father of Turkish Navy and
sailors." His grave is kept as a Turkish National shrine and monument
by his descendents in Istanbul at the shores of Baspouros. So, the
Turks get it from every which way regardless.
What Mustafa Soysal basically is saying in his posting about Jews
is anti-Jewish hate mongering.
I say this: if Ottoman establishment were made of Jews, Ottoman
organization today would be still alive and well.
The reason Ottomans allowed Jews to come and settle in Ottoman
territories after the Moorish Empire Collapsed in Spain was that
Ottomans knew very well the invaluable contributions of Jewish
people to the economy, art, science, and technology of Moorish
establishment and wanted and hoped to get the same from them for
themselves. There was no humanitary reason on the part of Ottomans
at all, just to benefit from extraordinary talents of Jewish people.
Unfortunately, Jews dod not have any other choice.
../..
In article <322f485b.4...@mistik.express.net>,
Nicos Lazarou
Will we?????
You've said we'll become ashes.
Explain please...
--
Nicos Lazarou
Cyprus
The bravest thing men do is love women <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote
in article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96090...@alcor.concordia.ca>...
The bravest thing men do is love women
On 6 Sep 1996, Nicos Lazarou wrote:
> Will we?????
> You've said we'll become ashes.
> Explain please...
>
> --
> Nicos Lazarou
> Cyprus
>
Nicos Ti kaveis Phila mou Greetings bro.... I didn't mean literally
we will be ashes.. I said it is quite possible our earth might be faced
with certain global problems due to enviroment and other things and this
will effect civilization... But, then again, there is no true
civilization today.... Our world is still too intellectually and
spiritually bankrupt and hypocritical..... Maybe, if we had a large
disaster we would emerge like the Phoenix from out of the ashes
figuratively speaking.... I can't say exactly what the future portends,
but many say to watch out for
the end of the decade towards the first and second decade... I have no
idea what will happen when the planets align? We are too proud we think
our civilizations will stay standing .... What happened to Atlantis?? It
was sophisticated and than lost its face on our earth........ Anyway, we
abuse our planet and there are consequences to it... If you want to go by
Nostradamus the Church is in trouble and will break up, and a huge
disaster will befall earth and others predicted the same... I am not God
so I do not know, but I am sure what they predicted is possible
considering earth's nature and the unpredictability of earth activity and
human activity.... Don't be too attached to what you can touch in life
and appreciate the universe and what it has and how we are all a part of
it and connected and are not really different....Humans learn from
disaster it is known.... Maybe, such an event would wake us up.... It is
sad we need to disaster to let us see how fragile we are and how we all
need each other...
Basil
Erol Keskin
Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
> Has nothing to do with likelyhood. Thet were Jews, period. Emperors
> Mehmet's ("Fetih" Sultan Mehmet) was a Jew from Italy (Stella), and his
> staff who created the big guns used to take Byzantine were engineered by
> sephardic Jews. Later on, Fetih himself was poisoned by his Doctor
> Jacob. "Fetih" was a Jew since his mother was a Jew. But he was not
> the first one in the Ottoman rule. Previously, the Jews had genocided
> the other Turkish Clans of the Empire while serving under the Ottoman
> rule. The Genocide of the entire Karaman Clan by them is the most well
> known. They have systematically eliminated (read genocided) Turkish
> population within the empire and tried to make it difficult tracing
> themselves by moving everybody around the country by any excuse they
> would get. After genociding the Karamans, they moved Greeks from
> Istanbul to Karaman and replaced the Greeks by more Jews they moved
Su bizim kirk yillik Fatihi de 'Fetih' yaptin ya
hadi hayirlisi. Herhalde bizim anlayamadigimiz bir
sebepten dolayi.
Erol Keskin
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <3223EF...@eskimo.com>, Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
>> A bunch of bullshit. The massacrer of Armenians, Talaat Pasha, a member
>> of the Young Turks, was a secret Jew as well. They did it, and then
>> blamed it on the Turks. As a matter of fact, the secret Jews had taken
>> over the Ottoman Empire family in early 1300s. So, your entire strain
>> of Ottoman Khalifs were secret Jews.
>
>
>rap: Wasselam. I think many people here are confusing some names with
>ideologies and vice versa. It appears that "being a Jew" here is perhaps
>a very bad euphemism for some other characteristics; The expression used
>for Ottoman Emperors can be understood in two (or more?) basic ways, that
>"being a Jew" was:
>
>a) indeed being a Jew, by ethnicity/nation/religion or whatever; or
>
>b) practicing an oligarchic method, commonly known as a Byzantine method
>or even from older days, known as "the whore of the Babylon" and widely
>generalized
>
>It is not very likely that Ottoman Emperors were "secred Jews" at all. They
Has nothing to do with likelyhood. They were Jews, period. Emperors
Mehmet's ("Fetih" Sultan Mehmet) was a Jew from Italy (Stella), and his
staff who created the big guns used to take Byzantine were engineered by
sephardic Jews. Later on, Fetih himself was poisoned by his Doctor
Jacob. "Fetih" was a Jew since his mother was a Jew. But he was not
the first one in the Ottoman rule. Previously, the Jews had genocided
the other Turkish Clans of the Empire while serving under the Ottoman
rule. The Genocide of the entire Karaman Clan by them is the most well
known. They have systematically eliminated (read genocided) Turkish
population within the empire and tried to make it difficult tracing
themselves by moving everybody around the country by any excuse they
would get. After genociding the Karamans, they moved Greeks from
Istanbul to Karaman and replaced the Greeks by more Jews they moved over
from Spain to Istanbul.
>were Oligarchs, Dynastic rulers, Emperors and such. In order to practice
Y Rapido
Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
> >As for Mustafa Kemal, some of his actions in establishing a REPUBLIC were
> >closer to true Islam than ANY Arab Oligarch haS ever been to this day --
> >ESPECIALLY today!
>
> What a truckload of shit you are delivering....
rap: Wasselam. Very unpolite and vulgar posting by this fellow Soysal.
It deserves no reply, but, for the sake of OTHER people, one should state,
that while Zionism is definitely an evil ideology, most of people who
call themselves "muslims" should really clean up their own yard, before
they fall into this sickening OBSESSION with Zionism. After all, if
only 10% of people who live in the world today and call themselves
muslims (that is about 100 million people !) were even remotely close
to dignity, morality, resourcefulness, intelligence/rationality,
decency, ... or, to put it summarily, GODLY BEHAVIOUR, no Zionists
(Jew or Christian Zionist) could even touch them. Lo and behold,
I could easily claim that those required 10% are not even on the horizon,
let alone a reality.
Yes, Zionism is bad, but, will you get your act together, by any chance?
Ever ?! Or are you going to bark like mad dogs up the "Zionist tree"
for the rest of your miserable lives -- to find a "punching bag" to voice
your own miserable frustrations and incompetence in each and every
category IMAGINABLE ?!
Clean your own act, and do WASH YOUR MOUTH when posting on Internet,
Musatafa Soysal (and the lookalikes) ....
BTW, my heritage is islamic ... so you know ...
Mahmud Alam
In <323124...@eskimo.com> Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com> writes:
>Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
>> >As for Mustafa Kemal, some of his actions in establishing a
REPUBLIC were
>> >closer to true Islam than ANY Arab Oligarch haS ever been to this
day --
>> >ESPECIALLY today!
>>
>> What a truckload of shit you are delivering....
>
>
Hey Rapido man, whoever the hell you are, let go of this issue, will
you? fighting to prove the goodness of Zionism is akin to saying that
the flesh eater Jeffrey Dhamer was fit to be a saint. So get to the
bottom line that Zionism is a gutter idealogy concocted by a bunch of
crooked scums under the pay of foreign powers. It has nothing to do
with Judaism, it is another terrorist idealogy. The punks who created
Zionism were the Khomenies of their days. Of course, in those days Arab
bashing was the norm, so they were portrayed by shit ridden media as
heros.
Y Rapido
Mahmud Alam wrote:
> Hey Rapido man, whoever the hell you are, let go of this issue, will
> you? fighting to prove the goodness of Zionism is akin to saying that
> the flesh eater Jeffrey Dhamer was fit to be a saint.
rap: I have stated that Zionism is EVIL. Many times. I have also
posted facts and analytical works about that. Just barking will
not help. But, what I also stated, many a time, this OBSESSION with
Zionism that is used as a placebo pill to remove the will to fight
decadency of the so-called "muslim world" is not going to get things
going in the right direction. So what if Zionism is evil ? They can
laugh all the way to the(ir) Bank, as they hold the money (and a total
subservience and servitude) of their Zionist servants like Saudis,
King Husain, Shaykh of Kuwait, Turkish government of Tansu Cillar
(and other Freemasons), ... and many others in their hands.
> So get to the
> bottom line that Zionism is a gutter idealogy concocted by a bunch of
> crooked scums under the pay of foreign powers. It has nothing to do
> with Judaism, it is another terrorist idealogy. The punks who created
> Zionism were the Khomenies of their days. Of course, in those days Arab
> bashing was the norm, so they were portrayed by shit ridden media as
> heros.
rap: That might be so, but, unfortunately, there are no Jews who are
not Zionists. When I see that ideology dismounted, perhaps I will see
Palestine in its integral form, International Banking dismounted in its
present form, Zionist evil intervention into American legal, political,
media, ... system dismounted ... but, those are only illusions ... for
now, we have what we have.
The latest news is that all muslims and "people of darker skin" will be
subjected to SPECIAL SEARCHES AND "PROFILE RESEARCH" in the USA, whenever
they choose to fly on ANY airplane ...
Nice news, huh ?! Since I am not brown skinned but a Caucasian
European American (Bosnian native), should I perhaps tie a green or
yellow band aound my arm stating "muslim -- potentially dangerous
passinger" and live like a Jew or a Slav in Adolf Hitler's Third Reich ?!
My ultra-Zionist President of the USA is just now "LEGALIZING" genocide
of my family members and friends in Bosnia ... and proclaiming a
Communist victory ! Wow ! Indeed, Zionism IS a gutter ideology --
you better believe it !
Y Rapido
-Surensoy,E. wrote:
>
> It is not likely that Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II was a Jew; he was
> first of all an Ottoman by conviction and training, and a Eastern
> European mutt, an offspring of parents of different East European
> Christian races and uncertain ancestry; his mother was a slave ci
> oncubibe Christian woman either captured as slave in Eastern Europe
> or Armenian; the mother of his father, grand father, or all grand
> grand fathers were also the same.
rap: Wasselam. The exporession "East European mutt" is a racist expression.
It is an ugly expression, by definition, of course. However, the good news
of this posting is that the truth about the true political/ideological profile
of the Ottoman Empire IS being exposed here in part. So, at least, the obvious
benefit of such exposure lies in the fact that the so-called "Pan-islamic"
movement (often couached by the British) gets to see that Ottoman Empire was
NOT some imaginary "Caliphate" (the land of "islamic purity, justice and
goodness", according to the mythology of Pan-islamists), but only a DYNASTIC,
Oligarchic grandoise institution based on cruel Imperial ideology. Yes, to
a degree there were some good islamic qualities to it, especially in its relative
TOLERANCE for non-muslims -- especially when COMPARED to the Christian Europe
and such. That much can be said about some good periods and better moments
of the Ottoman Empire which somewhat modelled itself on Roman Imperial strategy
that understood that internal varieties and possibilities of creating "frictions"
between various group made Empire more manageable for the ruling Oligarchy.
That model was copied by the British Empire, as well. They were masters
of creating, encouraging, and exploiting "tribalism", sectarianship, and such.
Also, that is why Christian Europe never got truly UNITED on ONE religious
dogma -- it is really hard to control people without inner friction. That
inner friction is nowadays created and exploited by the Zionists in the West.
Christian Europe, in order to achieve some united front, had to invent and
create OUTSIDE enemies, in order to rally for UNITY within Christian world of
the past two millenia. Crusades were one of those tools. Now, it seems
obvious that such a need is being "fullfiled" by feeding (quasi) Christian
West the so-called "Islamic danger" syndrome. That is skilllfully done by
Anglo-Zionists. They have invented and are pushing a whole ideology that
revolves around it (Re: Bernard Lewis "Crescent of Crisis" and other such
scenarios ...).
> The decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been
> reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the early
> moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great Ruler",
> or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" to
> the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations who
> were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of oppression
> and exploitation.
rap: This, however, is a typical ideological garbage (even if it is partially
true -- but watch the way it is EXPLOITED!) that is fed to the Turks by the
Anglo-Zionist propaganda. This is supposed to build up Turkish nationalism
and destroy geostrategic quality that islamic unity/solidarity can bring to
the muslims all around the world -- INCLUDING Turkey !
> What Mustafa Soysal basically is saying in his posting about Jews
> is anti-Jewish hate mongering.
rapido: Can Zionists discuss ANY political issue without the obligatory
"anti-Jewish hate mongering" slander launched against the people who
simply REFUSE TO SUBMIT themselves to Zionsit worldview ?!
>
> I say this: if Ottoman establishment were made of Jews, Ottoman
> organization today would be still alive and well.
rap: How self-serving!
> The reason Ottomans allowed Jews to come and settle in Ottoman
> territories after the Moorish Empire Collapsed in Spain was that
> Ottomans knew very well the invaluable contributions of Jewish
> people to the economy, art, science, and technology of Moorish
> establishment and wanted and hoped to get the same from them for
> themselves. There was no humanitary reason on the part of Ottomans
> at all, just to benefit from extraordinary talents of Jewish people.
> Unfortunately, Jews dod not have any other choice.
>
rap: Desperately self-serving, and UNTHANKFUL to the Ottomans (and muslims,
of course). So, what were the Ottomans (the muslims amongst them, included
in this case) supposed to do ? To throw Jews into boiling oil, like Christian
churches in Europe ?! Is that the way to thank muslims for 1400 years of
tolerance and keeping Jewish heads on their shoulders (and out of boiling
oil) ?! Or are the Zionists so comfy nowadays with their mastery over
the West, that they believe they can continue sickening the West (and
Christians who are eating out of their hands -- like Pat Robertsons and
Pastor John Hagees of this world) against the muslims to their total
satisfaction and pleasure ? It seems that way, if we are to judge by this
total anti-islamic hysteria launched nowadays all aournd the world!
Well, thank God, one can still believe that 1.2 billion people can NOT be
THAT wrong, and they are begining to see the light of the day and will
continue to see even more ... inshallah!
-Surensoy,E.
The word mutt means "mixed breed, race, origin, or character"; so,
it is not a "racist expression" nor is it an "ugly expression" even
though the Ottoman system of oppression like all others by their
history deserves the real ugly adjectives and pronouns just to
define it.
The "total anti-islamic hysteria launched nowadays all aournd the
world!" is not really launched nowadays all around the world; the
"anti-islamic hysteria" is a direct result of mileniums old Arab-
European-Jewish hostility which took a higher and more intense
dimension after the invention of the three Abrahamic religions,
Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which are identical to each other
and devised and used by each side as tools to dominate, oppress and
exploit the others.
The "anti-islamic hysteria" is the exact opposite replica and mirror
immage of the anti-Christian and anti-Jewish hysterias launched
around the World all together since the beginning of the hostilities
among the nations of the West and Middle-east many mileniums ago.
And, this stupid thing will go on until "the citizens of the World
educate themselves to be free from hatred, greed and jealousy
towards each other; until then, there will not be any lasting and
meaningful peace at home or throughout the World" (Mustafa Kemal
Ataturk).
When one accepts Judaism, Christianity or Islam unconditionally as
a religion, one by default finds self in the mids of that hositlity.
Therefore, one has to be super careful before doing so and do
everything in one's power to educate all those blood suckers who use
religion as tool to dominate, oppress, and exploit others to be free
from hatred, greed, and jealousy toward fellow homan beings.
Peoples like Turks and others of non-Western and non-Middleeastern
origin have no business of entering into this hostility what so ever
in any shape or form. Accepting one of these three religions
unconditionally has been the biggest and most costly mistake in
historic terms for peoples like Turks and others of non-Western and
non-Middleastern origin; because of that hostility, countless
millions of totally innocent people suffered immmensely, are still
suffreing.
The best thing for peoples like Turks and others of non-Western and
non-Middleeastern origin stay away from that histility with constrain
and self-discipline and do their best to educate them to be free from
hatred, jealousy, and greed toward one another.
Unfortunately, under Ottoman yoke for 600 years Turks were forced
to live in this stupid Jewish-Christian-Islamic hostility. Now the
Turks of Anatolia at least have established their will and rule in
their own country to live peacefully with themselves and others.
There are of coures some obstacles in the way within and without;
they are by no means overwhelming or undefeatable. A lot of them
have been eliminated during the last seventy plus years of the
history of the Republic Of Turkiye; just a few are remaining; in due
time they also will disappear.
../..
In article <323271...@eskimo.com), Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com) wrote:
)-Surensoy,E. wrote:
))
)) It is not likely that Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II was a Jew; he was
)) first of all an Ottoman by conviction and training, and a Eastern
)) European mutt, an offspring of parents of different East European
)) Christian races and uncertain ancestry; his mother was a slave ci
)) oncubibe Christian woman either captured as slave in Eastern Europe
)) or Armenian; the mother of his father, grand father, or all grand
)) grand fathers were also the same.
)
)rap: Wasselam. The exporession "East European mutt" is a racist expression.
)It is an ugly expression, by definition, of course. However, the good news
)of this posting is that the truth about the true political/ideological profile
)of the Ottoman Empire IS being exposed here in part. So, at least, the obvious
)benefit of such exposure lies in the fact that the so-called "Pan-islamic"
)movement (often couached by the British) gets to see that Ottoman Empire was
)NOT some imaginary "Caliphate" (the land of "islamic purity, justice and
)goodness", according to the mythology of Pan-islamists), but only a DYNASTIC,
)Oligarchic grandoise institution based on cruel Imperial ideology. Yes, to
)a degree there were some good islamic qualities to it, especially in its relative
)TOLERANCE for non-muslims -- especially when COMPARED to the Christian Europe
)and such. That much can be said about some good periods and better moments
)of the Ottoman Empire which somewhat modelled itself on Roman Imperial strategy
)that understood that internal varieties and possibilities of creating "frictions"
)between various group made Empire more manageable for the ruling Oligarchy.
)That model was copied by the British Empire, as well. They were masters
)of creating, encouraging, and exploiting "tribalism", sectarianship, and such.
)
)Also, that is why Christian Europe never got truly UNITED on ONE religious
)dogma -- it is really hard to control people without inner friction. That
)inner friction is nowadays created and exploited by the Zionists in the West.
)Christian Europe, in order to achieve some united front, had to invent and
)create OUTSIDE enemies, in order to rally for UNITY within Christian world of
)the past two millenia. Crusades were one of those tools. Now, it seems
)obvious that such a need is being "fullfiled" by feeding (quasi) Christian
)West the so-called "Islamic danger" syndrome. That is skilllfully done by
)Anglo-Zionists. They have invented and are pushing a whole ideology that
)revolves around it (Re: Bernard Lewis "Crescent of Crisis" and other such
)scenarios ...).
)
)
)) The decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been
)) reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the early
)) moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great Ruler",
)) or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" to
)) the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations who
)) were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of oppression
)) and exploitation.
)
)rap: This, however, is a typical ideological garbage (even if it is partially
)true -- but watch the way it is EXPLOITED!) that is fed to the Turks by the
)Anglo-Zionist propaganda. This is supposed to build up Turkish nationalism
)and destroy geostrategic quality that islamic unity/solidarity can bring to
)the muslims all around the world -- INCLUDING Turkey !
)
)
)
)
)) What Mustafa Soysal basically is saying in his posting about Jews
)) is anti-Jewish hate mongering.
)
)rapido: Can Zionists discuss ANY political issue without the obligatory
)"anti-Jewish hate mongering" slander launched against the people who
)simply REFUSE TO SUBMIT themselves to Zionsit worldview ?!
)
))
)) I say this: if Ottoman establishment were made of Jews, Ottoman
)) organization today would be still alive and well.
)
)rap: How self-serving!
)
)
)) The reason Ottomans allowed Jews to come and settle in Ottoman
)) territories after the Moorish Empire Collapsed in Spain was that
)) Ottomans knew very well the invaluable contributions of Jewish
)) people to the economy, art, science, and technology of Moorish
)) establishment and wanted and hoped to get the same from them for
)) themselves. There was no humanitary reason on the part of Ottomans
)) at all, just to benefit from extraordinary talents of Jewish people.
)) Unfortunately, Jews dod not have any other choice.
))
)
)rap: Desperately self-serving, and UNTHANKFUL to the Ottomans (and muslims,
)of course). So, what were the Ottomans (the muslims amongst them, included
)in this case) supposed to do ? To throw Jews into boiling oil, like Christian
)churches in Europe ?! Is that the way to thank muslims for 1400 years of
)tolerance and keeping Jewish heads on their shoulders (and out of boiling
)oil) ?! Or are the Zionists so comfy nowadays with their mastery over
)the West, that they believe they can continue sickening the West (and
)Christians who are eating out of their hands -- like Pat Robertsons and
)Pastor John Hagees of this world) against the muslims to their total
)satisfaction and pleasure ? It seems that way, if we are to judge by this
)total anti-islamic hysteria launched nowadays all aournd the world!
)
)Well, thank God, one can still believe that 1.2 billion people can NOT be
)THAT wrong, and they are begining to see the light of the day and will
)continue to see even more ... inshallah!
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <50pjuo$5...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>,
-Surensoy,E. <en...@ihgp1.ih.att.com> wrote:
> It is not likely that Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II was a Jew; he was
His mother was a Jew, period.
> first of all an Ottoman by conviction and training, and a Eastern
> European mutt, an offspring of parents of different East European
> Christian races and uncertain ancestry; his mother was a slave ci
> oncubibe Christian woman either captured as slave in Eastern Europe
> or Armenian; the mother of his father, grand father, or all grand
> grand fathers were also the same.
bullshit. His mother was Stella, a Jew.
>
> Abdul Hamid II is a good example; he was one of the most brutal
> Ottoman bastards who terrorized his subjugated peoples, especially
> the Turks, most brutally for 33 years from 1876 until 1909; he was
> known as the Red Sultan for the blood of his innocent victims in
> his hands and Bedros, or Peter in Armenian, because of his Armenian
> features and his Armenian mother who was one of the may hunderds of
> cuncubines of his father's women slave courters called harem. The
More bullshit. He was a red sultan because of his golden red hair and
frickles.
> decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been
> reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the early
> moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great Ruler",
> or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" to
> the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations who
> were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of oppression
> and exploitation.
>
> Another typical example was a man known by the name Barbarossa, a
Barbarossa was a barbarian Jew, who was angaged in selling slaves to the
American continent. That's what he did in the 18 years he spent on the
ocean. And that's how they got to make a map of the American continent.
> very successful(!) Greek Christain corsair, and a renegate, at the
> age of 67 or 68 converted valuntarily (of course to serve for his
> own benefits) to become a Moslem (Ottoman style) and an Ottoman
> Pasha to command the Ottoman naval fleets as the Ottoman Grand
> Admiral.
He was a doenmeh Jew, that's why he seemed to convert.
>
> Barbarossa was one of 4 sons of a former Ottoman devshirme (a
> Janissary) during Suleiman II times born on the Greek Island of
> Mytilene, the ancient Lesbos. His father was a young boy when Ottomans
> abducted him from his Greek Christian parents to convert him to Moslem
> and trained him to be a Janissary. After he retired, he returned to
> his native island took up pottery for living and married the widow
> of a Greek Orthodox priest who gave birth to his four sons, Ishak
Yeah, and he gave his children Jewish names (Izhak) just for the kick of
it. You are a charlatan Jew Enis. Nobody believes these shitty lies
you have been telling anymore.
> the eldest who was a merchant, and the other three (Uruj, Khaireddin
> known as Barbarossa, and Elisa) were corsairs.
>
> Babarossa was certaily the role model and the leader of Ottoman
> Naval force; in him, Ottoman system of oppression and emperialism
> found a very valuable capability to enslave and plunder more innocent
> peoples and countries. But the tottally unfair and unfortunate side
> of this for Turks and Turkiye is that now, according to the Ottoman
> propaganda taught in schools in Turkiye by the descendents of former
> Ottomans as the Ottoman history, Barbarossa, the Greek Christian
Barbarossa was a Jew as shown above. And the Jews had taken over the
Ottomans as late as Fetih Sultan, and sometime early to mid 1300s for
sure.
> corsair is being made to be known as "the father of Turkish Navy and
> sailors." His grave is kept as a Turkish National shrine and monument
> by his descendents in Istanbul at the shores of Baspouros. So, the
> Turks get it from every which way regardless.
>
> What Mustafa Soysal basically is saying in his posting about Jews
> is anti-Jewish hate mongering.
Yeah right, and we hear more Jewish lies from you as exposed by your own
inconsistencies. The only thing I might be anti of is zionizm. These
Jews were working in concert with the zionist structures, and have
inflicted genocide after genocide to deliver their traumas upon the rest
of us. Don't be fooled, the zionists will even go after other Jews if
they are not in support of zionizm. What I don't understand is why the
Jews are obeying the zionists to become part of their criminal
endevours, at least as guilty as they are.
>
> I say this: if Ottoman establishment were made of Jews, Ottoman
> organization today would be still alive and well.
The Jewish organizations including the hahams in Turkey that replaced
the Ottoman structure by pulling off another genocide under the name of
an independence war, did indeed place another structure to further their
genocides on the Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, etc of the region.
The banana republic is is called Turkey, and it is still doing well in
sucking the blood out of their inhabitants to deliver it to the zionist
purposes to further their crimes on the peoples of the world.
>
> The reason Ottomans allowed Jews to come and settle in Ottoman
> territories after the Moorish Empire Collapsed in Spain was that
> Ottomans knew very well the invaluable contributions of Jewish
> people to the economy, art, science, and technology of Moorish
> establishment and wanted and hoped to get the same from them for
> themselves. There was no humanitary reason on the part of Ottomans
Naaaah, they had taken over the ruling family, that was the reason.
They have done so in other countries as well, Russia, Britain, Germany,
France, Italy, etc etc.
> at all, just to benefit from extraordinary talents of Jewish people.
What talents? All I see is theft from other peoples and genocides of
centuries, being refined in new ways.
> Unfortunately, Jews dod not have any other choice.
Another truckload of bullshit.
Mustafa Soysal MS57
fuck you gOthveren zionist apologist.
>It deserves no reply, but, for the sake of OTHER people, one should state,
>that while Zionism is definitely an evil ideology, most of people who
>call themselves "muslims" should really clean up their own yard, before
>they fall into this sickening OBSESSION with Zionism. After all, if
>only 10% of people who live in the world today and call themselves
>muslims (that is about 100 million people !) were even remotely close
>to dignity, morality, resourcefulness, intelligence/rationality,
>decency, ... or, to put it summarily, GODLY BEHAVIOUR, no Zionists
>(Jew or Christian Zionist) could even touch them. Lo and behold,
>I could easily claim that those required 10% are not even on the horizon,
>let alone a reality.
>
>Yes, Zionism is bad, but, will you get your act together, by any chance?
>Ever ?! Or are you going to bark like mad dogs up the "Zionist tree"
>for the rest of your miserable lives -- to find a "punching bag" to voice
>your own miserable frustrations and incompetence in each and every
>category IMAGINABLE ?!
>
>Clean your own act, and do WASH YOUR MOUTH when posting on Internet,
>Musatafa Soysal (and the lookalikes) ....
Mustafa Soysal may fuck your mother you God damn zionist pig.
>
>BTW, my heritage is islamic ... so you know ...
My religion is Christian. I converted from an IslAm that was screwed up
by the zionist doenmeh Khalifs who pretended to be Ottomans.