Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/???
Andrew Comech
Hi,
I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
out more. Here is what I learned so far:
1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel
with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee..
I would appreciate information about all these words (origin,
meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I
ought to know?
Thank you!
Andrew
PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago:
: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE?
: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE?
: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled:
: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece.
: >So far I learned that Americans have no proper word for it (neither have
: >they good coffee), but probably "ibrik" and (?) "cezve" are Turkish
: >names, and "briki" is a Greek one; do you have anything to say about it?
: We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters Mu Pi)
: It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write.
: Greetings from Athens
: Antreas
Meanwile, I will go get some coffee ;-)
--
Looking for a Linux-compatible V.90 modem? See
http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~comech/tools/CheapBox.html#modems
Cluster User
wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>
>1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
cezve is turkish, judging from the ottoman spelling in arabic script
as ce*dh*ve (read cezve) it is based on arabic ja*dh*wa(t) - a burning
log or coal (presumabely because the pot was heated on them)
>
>2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
ibrik is turkish from arabic 'ibri"q in turn a rendition of persian
a:bri:z - a:b water, ri:z (older re^z) a cup.
>
>3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
rakwa is given by the dictionaries, arabic
(originally according to hava a leather bag for water, later a coffee
pot)
>
>4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
dalla . arabic.
H.M.Hubey
Andrew Comech wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>
> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
dictionary has nothing on bronze.
> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is.
The words below also sound ARabic.
> 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
>
> 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
>
> Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel
> with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee..
>
> I would appreciate information about all these words (origin,
> meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I
> ought to know?
--
Sincerely,
M. Hubey
hub...@mail.montclair.edu
http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
Mike Wright
>
> Andrew Comech wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
> > out more. Here is what I learned so far:
> >
> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>
> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
> dictionary has nothing on bronze.
Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A Dictionary
of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to use a
dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them.
> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
>
> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is.
"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug"
> The words below also sound ARabic.
>
> > 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
> > http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
"rakwa" - Syrian "small coffee pot of copper, having a long handle"
> > 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
> > http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
"dalla" - "pot with long curved spout and handle used for making coffee (among
Syrian nomads and in some parts of Saudi Arabia"
> > Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel
> > with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee..
> >
> > I would appreciate information about all these words (origin,
> > meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I
> > ought to know?
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
mb
Leila A. <leil...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
> fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
...
> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
> Westerners know what I mean.)
Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955
pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it
"tourkikos".
Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed
south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as
soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom
etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee.
Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves"
or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps
believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?).
Other important implements: Stakhtokouti. Bronze container, approx. 3' x 2'
x 2', with a lower level for charcoal under abundant ashes, upon which you
can place up to 3 brikia, and an upper compartment for heating water. Still
in use in the "real" Greek coffee-house. Tepsi (T) /tapsi - diskos (G):
circular tray hanging from 3 or 4 arches. The good waiter swings it without
spilling.
Pen1418hj
Somewhere around 70%.
pen1418hj
Leila A.
>
>Hi,
>
>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>out more. Here is what I learned so far:
snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish
>Andrew
>
>
>PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago:
>
>: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE?
>: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE?
>
>: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled:
>: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece.
>
Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee
tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about
12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee.
The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of
the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century
of the common era until the end of World War I. Turks cannot pronounce
that 'q', and they tend to pronounce a "w" as a "v". Qahwah thus
became kahveh. This became café or caffé in various European
languages, eventually becoming Coffee in English.
The Turks got "Turkish" coffee from the Arabs. When I make this
coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
Westerners know what I mean.)
Since my grandfather fought the Turks on the barricades outside of
Sidon, Lebanon, at the fall of the Ottoman empire (1918), I feel it's
my post-colonialist duty to call this coffee by the name of its
inventors, not its conquerors!
Regards,
Leila A.
TO REPLY:
my friends should e-mail me using
leilasab
with a domain of yahoo
spammers have figured out my other spoiler
dont forget the dot com
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
I think he means, roughly, "we spell mp (mu-pi) and pronounce it more or
less like English B". I heard it pronounced briki when I was in Greece.
Cheers,
Philip
Cluster User
>
>
>Leila A. <leil...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
>> fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>...
>> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
>> Westerners know what I mean.)
>
>Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955
>pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it
>"tourkikos".
>
>Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed
>south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as
>soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom
>etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee.
agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as
decribed above) usage in lebanon.
coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an
ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink
during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul.
Cluster User
wrote:
>fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>
>snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish
>
>>Andrew
>>
>>
>>PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago:
>>
>>: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE?
>>: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE?
>>
>>: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>>: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled:
>>: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece.
>>
>
>Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee
>tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about
>12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee.
>The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of
it's an arabic word (perhaps of ethiopic origin), spread to europe via
turkish.
>the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century
I think the more genteel turkified or turkish elite stopped chewing
the seeds and watered them down to a drink,. the europeans watered it
down even more!
>of the common era until the end of World War I. Turks cannot pronounce
>that 'q', and they tend to pronounce a "w" as a "v". Qahwah thus
it's found or some sort of distinction is made, but not in writing. q
sound is not found, or rare, in europe.
>became kahveh. This became café or caffé in various European
>languages, eventually becoming Coffee in English.
>
>The Turks got "Turkish" coffee from the Arabs. When I make this
>coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
>Westerners know what I mean.)
>
Cluster User
wrote:
>"H.M.Hubey" wrote:
>>
>> Andrew Comech wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>> > out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>> >
>> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>>
>> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
>> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
>> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
>> dictionary has nothing on bronze.
>
>Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A Dictionary
>of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to use a
>dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them.
>
>> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
>> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
>>
>> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is.
>
>"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug"
>
yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin; in arabic of persian origin -
see stenigass persian - english under "ibri:q"
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Andrew Comech wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>
>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>
>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
>bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
>other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
>dictionary has nothing on bronze.
>
what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing
in turkish, with an ambigous suffix.
for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is
unattested in ottoman turkish
Pen1418hj
Cluster User
wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:12:50 GMT, leil...@my-deja.com (Leila A.)
>wrote:
>
>>fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>>out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>
>>snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish
>>
>>>Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago:
>>>
>>>: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE?
>>>: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE?
>>>
>>>: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>>>: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled:
>>>: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece.
>>>
>>
>>Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee
>>tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about
>>12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee.
>>The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of
>
>it's an arabic word (perhaps of ethiopic origin), spread to europe via
>turkish.
>
>>the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century
>
>I think the more genteel turkified or turkish elite stopped chewing
>the seeds and watered them down to a drink,. the europeans watered it
>down even more!
not quite. see next post.
Cluster User
wrote:
>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" <m...@co.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Leila A. <leil...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
>>> fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>>> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>>...
>>> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
>>> Westerners know what I mean.)
>>
>>Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955
>>pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it
>>"tourkikos".
>>
>>Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed
>>south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as
>>soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom
>>etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee.
>
>agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as
>decribed above) usage in lebanon.
>
>coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an
apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there.
it's native to ethiopia / eritrea.
>ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink
>during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul.
yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was
made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles.
Cluster User
>>"H.M.Hubey" <hub...@mail.montclair.edu>
>>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 10:39 PM EDT
>>Message-id: <378E9B46...@mail.montclair.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrew Comech wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>>
>>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>>
>>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say.
>>But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul).
>In the Turkish dialect spoken in Northern Iraq, "céz"
>means a pile of grains, like wheat (while still in the field),
>and the word for brass is "yéz". This last one is also
>used for "fake gold."
doesn't explain the suffix, besides it not being attested in ottoman
turkish. also wrong milieu for the name to develop there.
as I said before, ottoman turks definitley felt it came from arabic,
as shown by the prefered spelling (see sami).
>[.......]
>I wonder what the etymology of the Arabic words
>"qahwa" and "bunn" are, and whether this last one has
qahwa(t) was an old arabic word for "wine". it may have developed into
"coffee" because "kaffa" in abysinia wasw where coffee was first
exported to yemen.
bunn is from ethiopic bu:n for the tree, bean and drink.
>anything to do with the English word "bean"?
no. bean is old germanic and may have cogantes in latin and slavic,
according to the oxford english dictioanry.
>>Sincerely,
>>M. Hubey
>>hub...@mail.montclair.edu
>>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
>Tisinli
Cluster User
>
>Hi,
>
>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>
see enc. of islam II "Kahwa"
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
>
> what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing
> in turkish, with an ambigous suffix.
IF it was from Farsi, that could explain it easily. I don't know what
language it is from.
> for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is
> unattested in ottoman turkish
--
P&D Schultz
> Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee
> tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about
> 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee.
> The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". <...>
The furthest back the word can be traced is to Arabic, but what evidence is there
that the Arabs "invented coffee?" It seems more likely that the natives served the
visiting Arabs coffee, and when they asked about it, the natives explained how they
made it, showed them the plant, and told them what it was called. And "qahwah" was
as close to the native name (whatever it was) as the Arabs could pronounce. And if
that is the case, saying the Arabs invented coffee is like saying the Spanish
invented chocolate, or the English invented tea.
Incidentally, the word "tobacco" is possibly of Arabic origin too. But the Arabs
didn't invent tobacco.
//P. Schultz
Leila A.
>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>wrote:
>
>>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" <m...@co.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Leila A. <leil...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
>>>> fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>>>> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
>>>...
>>>> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so
>>>> Westerners know what I mean.)
>>>
>>>Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955
>>>pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it
>>>"tourkikos".
>>>
>>>Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed
>>>south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as
>>>soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom
>>>etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee.
In Cairo 15 years ago when you went to a traditional coffee roaster,
tehy would ask you what color you wanted: light brown, dark brown and
black. I was told that the Greeks liked the light brown (there were
still a few ancient Greek pension owners left in Egypt in those days).
>>
>>agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as
>>decribed above) usage in lebanon.
>>
>>coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an
>
>apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there.
>it's native to ethiopia / eritrea.
>>ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink
>>during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul.
>
I believe that the snipsbelow, saying it was turned into a drink in
Yemen, prove that the Arabs brought it to the Turks. Yemenis are
Arabs...
>
>yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was
>made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles.
Regards,
Leila A.
>Leila A. wrote:
>
>> Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee
>> tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about
>> 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee.
>> The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". <...>
>
>The furthest back the word can be traced is to Arabic, but what evidence is there
>that the Arabs "invented coffee?" It seems more likely that the natives served the
>visiting Arabs coffee, and when they asked about it, the natives explained how they
Actually, you have a point there. My research was done a dozen years
ago, and being an Arab, I naturally stopped when I found citations
saying that the ARabs invented it.
>made it, showed them the plant, and told them what it was called. And "qahwah" was
>as close to the native name (whatever it was) as the Arabs could pronounce. And if
>that is the case, saying the Arabs invented coffee is like saying the Spanish
>invented chocolate, or the English invented tea.
>
>Incidentally, the word "tobacco" is possibly of Arabic origin too. But the Arabs
>didn't invent tobacco.
>
>//P. Schultz
>
Regards,
Saabirah
Leila A. wrote in message <37905aba...@news.mindspring.com>...
>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" <m...@co.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Leila A. <leil...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
>>>>> fin...@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote:
>In Cairo 15 years ago when you went to a traditional coffee roaster,
>tehy would ask you what color you wanted: light brown, dark brown and
>black. I was told that the Greeks liked the light brown (there were
>still a few ancient Greek pension owners left in Egypt in those days).
And, even these days in the souq in al-Quds, when you ask for coffee you are
given the same choice. I prefer a mixture of black and brown.... with a
good handful of cardomon (?) seeds ground in with it of course.
Saabirah
Konstantopoulos S.
> Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955
> pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it
> "tourkikos".
the story i've heard places the transition at the time of the turkish
invasion of cyprus (74).
> Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves"
> or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps
> believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?).
i've never heard this word in my life. where in greece did you hear
it?
stasinos
Konstantopoulos S.
> Cheers,
> Philip
you 're right. pronounce both i's like the 'ee' in 'greek'.
stasinos
Isadora S Cohen
> Hi,
>
>
> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
That's the one used in Romanian. Yes, it is of Turkish Origin AFAIK
Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts
(but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of
the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in
Israel.
-I.
P&D Schultz
> Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts
> (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of
> the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in
> Israel.
It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian.
Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old
OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the
Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs
got it from the Turks or Persians.
//P. Schultz
Cluster User
(tisinli: include sci.lang if you want a wider response)
>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote
>
>>tis...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>>"H.M.Hubey" <hub...@mail.montclair.edu>
>>>>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 10:39 PM EDT
>>>>Message-id: <378E9B46...@mail.montclair.edu>
>
>>>>Andrew Comech wrote:
>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>>>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>>>> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>>>>
>>>>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say.
>>>>But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul).
>
>>>In the Turkish dialect spoken in Northern Iraq, "céz"
>>>means a pile of grains, like wheat (while still in the field),
>>>and the word for brass is "yéz". This last one is also
>>>used for "fake gold."
>
>>doesn't explain the suffix, besides it not being attested in ottoman
>>turkish. also wrong milieu for the name to develop there.
>
>I did not clame that "cezve" is of Turkish/Turkic origin.
>I was merely commenting on the words mentioned by Hubey.
>
>>as I said before, ottoman turks definitley felt it came from arabic,
>>as shown by the prefered spelling (see sami).
>
>I have no problem with that, whatsoever.
>
>>>[.......]
>
>>>I wonder what the etymology of the Arabic words
>>>"qahwa" and "bunn" are, and whether this last one has
>
>>qahwa(t) was an old arabic word for "wine". it may have
>>developed into "coffee" because "kaffa" in abysinia wasw
>>where coffee was first exported to yemen.
>
>It is very difficult for me to confuse between wine and coffee, and would
>prefere "kaffa" > xxx > "kahve". It looks like that "coffe" (and caffine) is
>more from "kaffa" than "qahwa"/"kahve".
>
that is not suggested by the turkish pronounciation (ottoamn turks
would have no problems with kaffa) nor the ottoman spelling. europeans
certainly learned coffee drinking form turks, and cafe, coffee would
be approximations of turkish kahve, where the v is weakly voiced, thus
sounding to untrained ears as an "f".
early arab records show no evidence of coffee drinking, yet "qahwa" is
used in the sense of a certain wine. the best guess is that this was
transfered over to the new drink under the influence of the ethiopian
placename.
>>bunn is from ethiopic bu:n for the tree, bean and drink.
>
>>>anything to do with the English word "bean"?
>
>>no. bean is old germanic and may have cogantes in
>>latin and slavic, according to the oxford english dictioanry.
>
>I would urge the linguists who deal with linguistic superfamilies
>to keep an open mind about some sort of relation between the
>two words.
it's not exlusively the bean (properly a berry) that the ethiopic word
refers to.
>
>Linguists should start relying on spoken languages in addition
they do when available. for older languages and forms, there was no
other recording device and 'dead people make poor informants"
>to the printed books an dictionaries. I do not beleive that every
>Turkish/Turkic word is documented. There is a welth of knowlwge there, where
>the dictionary compileres did not include in their dictionaries for one reason
>or another.
these coffee terms used in turkish were based upon the 16th - 17th
century istanbul speech, the modern variety of which forms the basis
of the standard language and is well recorded throughout its history.
>
>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>M. Hubey
>>>>hub...@mail.montclair.edu
>>>>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
>>
>>
>>>Tisinli
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Cluster User
wrote:
>>>coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an
>>
>>apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there.
>>it's native to ethiopia / eritrea.
>>>ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink
>>>during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul.
>>
>I believe that the snipsbelow, saying it was turned into a drink in
>Yemen, prove that the Arabs brought it to the Turks. Yemenis are
>Arabs...
precisely.
>>
>>yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was
>>made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles.
>
Cluster User
wrote:
making it good "arab coffee".
>Saabirah
>
>
>
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>>
>> what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing
>> in turkish, with an ambigous suffix.
>
>IF it was from Farsi, that could explain it easily. I don't know what
it isn't farsi.
>language it is from.
>
>> for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is
>> unattested in ottoman turkish
>
>
>--
Cluster User
wrote:
originally persian.
turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n
>
>//P. Schultz
>
Cluster User
>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>Is the "-a:n" part of the word the persian plural suffix?
>
>In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be something which
>resembles this coffee cup, however, used upside down, made of sun dried mud and
>straw with many small holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide at
>its rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly hatched chicks
>from beeing prayed upon by cats during the nights and it is called "pin." I
>don't have the slightest idea about it's origin or etymology.
probably from pinga:n.
>
>However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge- (a sound ?), then it
this sound is only heard to turkish ears?!
>would be very easy to give the word "finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology.
no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg prior to
turkish settlement in and around arab lands.
>
>Tisinli
>
>>>//P. Schultz
>
>
Cluster User
>"H.M.Hubey" <hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote
>
>>Andrew Comech wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>>
>>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>>
>>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
>>bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
>>other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
>>dictionary has nothing on bronze.
>>
>>> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
>>> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
>>
>>Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is.
>>
>Cluster User says (somewhere in this thread) that it is persian. It may well
>be, but the Turkic (at least N.I. Turkmen) verb:
>
> *ib- > ib-in-mek (to be soaked; to be watered), and
> *ib- > ib-it-mek (to soak, specially overnight; to water)
>
>must be taken into consideration too. It has all the ingredients to be the
>ancestor for "ibrik."
'ibri"q sseem to come from a:b ri:z (persian)
1. in turkish it was loaned from aarbic, note spelling with qaf rather
than kaf, which is not found with front vowels.
2. a turkish loan in arabic wouldn't have qaf with front vowels
either.
3. qaf may have represented late middle persian or early new persian
-k (continuation of syriac scribal practice) or -g. perhaps a
dimunitive. or, a reflex of -z in some dialect.
4. these seem to have entered arabic before turkish migration into the
area.
5. medieval iran was a source of fine metalworks..
6. the container has more general uses than "soaking" coffee beans.
7. I don't know of any turkic cognate to the iraqi tUrkmen words. they
may have come from the same arabic rendering of persian a:b.
8. it is generally a waste of time try to sort out over again loans in
turkish from persian (after a certain period) and arabic.
lexicographers had taken careful track of that.
>
>>The words below also sound ARabic.
>>
>>> 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
>>> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
>>>
>>> 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
>>> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
>>>
>>> Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel
>>> with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee..
>>>
>>> I would appreciate information about all these words (origin,
>>> meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I
>>> ought to know?
Nikos Sarantakos
wrote:
>>
>>It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian.
>>Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old
>>OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the
>>Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs
>>got it from the Turks or Persians.
>
>originally persian.
>
>turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n
>
>>
It may be that the Persian word has a Greek ultimate origin, from
Greek "pinaka" (acc. of pinaks).
At least this is what G.Meyer (Turkische Studien I,51) says, quoting
as reference "Justi, Kurd.Gram.XVI".
nikos sarantakos
.
Cluster User
>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>>
>>On 18 Jul 1999 07:33:15 GMT, tis...@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote:
>>
>>>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:18 -0400, P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Isadora S Cohen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts
>>>>>> (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of
>>>>>> the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in
>>>>>> Israel.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian.
>>>>>Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old
>>>>>OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the
>>>>>Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs
>>>>>got it from the Turks or Persians.
>>>>
>>>>originally persian.
>>>>
>>>>turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n
>>>
>>>Is the "-a:n" part of the word the persian plural suffix?
>>>
>>>In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be something which
>>>resembles this coffee cup, however, used upside down, made of sun dried mud
>>and
>>>straw with many small holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide
>>at
>>>its rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly hatched
>>chicks
>>>from beeing prayed upon by cats during the nights and it is called "pin." I
>>>don't have the slightest idea about it's origin or etymology.
>>
>>probably from pinga:n.
>>
>
>I dout you know what "pinga:n" means, leave alone deriving "pin" from it.
pinga:n means finjan.
as for its origin in persian, it comes from greek - see the post by
nikos sarantakos.
>
>>>However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge- (a sound ?), then
>>it
>>
>>this sound is only heard to turkish ears?!
>>
>You always see a foregin root for every Turkish word you can lay your hands on.
there is no evidence that the dialect words you give are old turkic,
let alone the basis for the persian or arabic words in question.
> To be credible you need to give a meaning for your foregin roots. Because it
>is listed in a dictionary and claimed to be so and so, it does not follow that
>the writer of that dictionary is the best person to judge that. Anything said
well, steingass (persian - english) and doerfer are at least among the
best people in that field. read their works, and you will find many
genuine turkic words as loans in persian. the words in question just
don't happen to be amonmg them.
>by anyone can always be open for debate. You underestimate your audiance, most
>of the time.
I gave you the reasons why turkic is excluded.
>
>>>would be very easy to give the word "finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology.
>>
>>no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg prior to
>>turkish settlement in and around arab lands.
>>
>
>And when was that supposed to be?
just looking at the arabic spelling, they were adopted in arabic
before the use arabic script by persians.
>
>
>>>Tisinli
>>>
>>>>>//P. Schultz
>>>
Cluster User
>cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"H.M.Hubey" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Comech wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi,
>>>> >
>>>> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
>>>> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
>>>> > out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>>>>
>>>> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means
>>>> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some
>>>> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language
>>>> dictionary has nothing on bronze.
>>>
>>>Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A
>>Dictionary
>>>of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to
>>use a
>>>dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them.
>>>
>>>> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
>>>> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
>>>>
>>>> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is.
>>>
>>>"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug"
>>>
>>
>>
>>yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin, of persian origin - see
>>stenigass persian -english under "ibri:q"
>
>S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik"
see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the
classical new persian.
>(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and
it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian.
haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation.
>dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and
>ib-it-mek).
I told why turkic is to be rejected.
>
>p.s. Haim does mention "pengan" as a root for "finjan", but without givining
>its (possible) meaning. If "pinga:n" (or "pengan") are not explained, it has no
>value, at least as far as etymology is concerned.
>
>
it's of greek origin.
>Tisinli
Roger
URL:
http://members.xoom.com/elgato76/pages/index.htm
HIGHLIGHTS:
ANCIENT EGYPTIAN LIGHT BULB
SATANIC SYMBOLS IN WASHINGTON D.C. , AVEBURY, ENGLAND AND
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THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE SERPENT,... ALSO KNOWN AS "BIG
BROTHER".
THE NEW WORLD ORDER/TRIBULATION
VISIT AND REALIZE WHAT MOST ARE NOT AWARE OF.
Andrew Comech wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled
> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find
> out more. Here is what I learned so far:
>
> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish?
>
> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek)
> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html
>
> 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ??
> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm
>
> 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ??
> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html
>
> Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel
> with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee..
>
> I would appreciate information about all these words (origin,
> meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I
> ought to know?
>
> Thank you!
> Andrew
>
> PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago:
>
> : >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE?
> : >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE?
>
> : Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality.
> : Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled:
> : O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece.
>
> : >So far I learned that Americans have no proper word for it (neither have
> : >they good coffee), but probably "ibrik" and (?) "cezve" are Turkish
> : >names, and "briki" is a Greek one; do you have anything to say about it?
>
> : We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters Mu Pi)
> : It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write.
>
> : Greetings from Athens
> : Antreas
>
> Meanwile, I will go get some coffee ;-)
>
> --
> Looking for a Linux-compatible V.90 modem? See
> http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~comech/tools/CheapBox.html#modems
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
>
> >
> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik"
>
> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the
> classical new persian.
>
> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and
>
> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian.
> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation.
>
> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and
> >ib-it-mek).
\
> I told why turkic is to be rejected.
Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word
absu (bottom water). At first I thought it was like alt=bottom, su=water
as in Turkic. But Sumerian adjectives follow the noun as in lu-gal
lu=man, gal=high,great, thus lugal=king. (see below on this).
So absu must be ab=water, su=bottom.
And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both
from Sumerian ab. NOw for the clincher, cibit=to wet something,
and cibi=wet can be found in Karachay-Balkar. Since initical c in KB
corresponds to Turkish y, and since many words that originally had
c or y initially have lost them, ib can easily be also Turkic, but
the root must go back to Sumerian.
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik"
>>
>> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the
>> classical new persian.
>>
>> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and
>>
>> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian.
>> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation.
>>
>> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and
>> >ib-it-mek).
>\
>> I told why turkic is to be rejected.
>
>Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word
gee, always has to go to sumerian!
these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back
to sumerian times!
>absu (bottom water). At first I thought it was like alt=bottom, su=water
>as in Turkic. But Sumerian adjectives follow the noun as in lu-gal
>lu=man, gal=high,great, thus lugal=king. (see below on this).
>
>So absu must be ab=water, su=bottom.
>
persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua).
PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world.
cognates are irrelevant.
>And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both
abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e.
ablution). the word is persian!
as for "ibrig" it is not clear if arabic qaf intended to render a
persian k or g, but teh standard pronounciationis 'ibri:q
>from Sumerian ab. NOw for the clincher, cibit=to wet something,
they are from *persian* a:b. cognates are irrelevant.
>and cibi=wet can be found in Karachay-Balkar. Since initical c in KB
>corresponds to Turkish y, and since many words that originally had
fine, this would be the source of the turkmen word, but I don't have
any information as to its history.
>c or y initially have lost them, ib can easily be also Turkic, but
on does not know it's history, as common turkic y-, qychaq c- could
originally have represnted many sounds, and one does not know in this
case wether itis secondary or not.
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400, "H.M.Hubey"
> <hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
> >Cluster User wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik"
> >>
> >> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the
> >> classical new persian.
> >>
> >> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and
> >>
> >> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian.
> >> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation.
> >>
> >> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and
> >> >ib-it-mek).
> >\
> >> I told why turkic is to be rejected.
> >
> >Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word
>
> gee, always has to go to sumerian!
>
> these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back
> to sumerian times!
Turkic ak (to flow), Hittite eku (to drink), Turkic ich (to drink),
Turkic ash (food), Turkic ach (hungry), etc etc.
But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it.
> persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua).
> PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world.
Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language)
insufficient for IE?
>
> cognates are irrelevant.
>
> >And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both
>
> abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e.
> ablution). the word is persian!
I pointed out where it came from. If you ignore Sumerian, then
why not ignore Iranian ab and go with Turkic cibi/yibi? What
is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand,
look at how words are formed in Turkic:
Karachay-Balkar has cum-dur-uk (fist) from cum (to close).
This in Oguz-Turkmen should have been yum-dur-uk. But via
assimilation instead we have yudruk and yumruk. There is a similar
formation from karin-dash (karin=abdomen,womb). The -dash suffix
is used in yoldash (road-mates), arkadash (sharing the same back
ie. friend), adash (sharing the same name). Anyway everyone knows the
-dash suffix.
karindash (womb-mates, i.e. siblings) has become karnash, and
kardash. Now look at the root from cibi/yibi (to get wet);
cibi-tir-ik (just like yumduruk). It has become yibrik> ibrik,
as Turkic as the Osmanli Bank.
It is used to pour water to wash up.
It looks as Turkish as kardash/karnash and yumruk/yudruk.
I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized
it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into
Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count?
Full Name
"H.M.Hubey" wrote:
>
> Cluster User wrote:
> >
>
> But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it.
>
> > persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua).
> > PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world.
>
> Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language)
> insufficient for IE?
>
I don't understand why it should be sufficient.
F. N.
Full Name
"H.M.Hubey" wrote:
> It is used to pour water to wash up.
>
> It looks as Turkish as kardash/karnash and yumruk/yudruk.
>
> I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized
> it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into
> Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count?
>
No, I lost it. It is much better not to count stupidities.
F. N.
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400, "H.M.Hubey"
>> <hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Cluster User wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik"
>> >>
>> >> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the
>> >> classical new persian.
>> >>
>> >> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and
>> >>
>> >> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian.
>> >> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation.
>> >>
>> >> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and
>> >> >ib-it-mek).
>> >\
>> >> I told why turkic is to be rejected.
>> >
>> >Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word
>>
>> gee, always has to go to sumerian!
>>
>> these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back
>> to sumerian times!
>
>Turkic ak (to flow), Hittite eku (to drink), Turkic ich (to drink),
>Turkic ash (food), Turkic ach (hungry), etc etc.
>
>But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it.
>
a:b in farsi (and persian in general) goes back to indo-iranian and
indo-european. it is not a loanword. cognates are not relevant to this
thread.
>
>> persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua).
>> PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world.
>
>Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language)
>insufficient for IE?
>
>>
>> cognates are irrelevant.
>>
>> >And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both
(it turns out that q need not render middle persian -g after all)
>>
>> abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e.
>> ablution). the word is persian!
>
>I pointed out where it came from. If you ignore Sumerian, then
>why not ignore Iranian ab and go with Turkic cibi/yibi? What
because the word was borrowed from persian ands makes sense in
persian. I also pointed out factors which rule out turkic for "ibri:q"
>is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand,
>look at how words are formed in Turkic:
>
it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a
word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending),
thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic,
probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there
are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in
loans.
> ...
I will respond to some of this material elsewhere, exclusively in
sci.lang and in another thread ("some turkic words")
>
>It is used to pour water to wash up.
exactly.
>
> ...
>
>I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized
>it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into
>Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count?
>
there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give
bad examples.
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
> >is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand,
> >look at how words are formed in Turkic:
> >
>
> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
>
> arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a
> word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending),
> thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic,
> probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there
> are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in
> loans.
...
> there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give
> bad examples.
Since the earliest form goes back as far as Sumerian they must all
be from Sumerian.
Meanwhile....
I stick to my derivation. Here it is again. cibi/yibi is Turkic for
"get wet".
yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish)
yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish)
kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish)
The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form
cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative
'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even
in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year
ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't
recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga.
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
>
> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
OK, then show me
1. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which a > i
2. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which z > k
One might find a>i from Farsi to Arabic, but I doubt you will find
z > k. Otherwise how do you get a:bri:z > ibrik?
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
>
> it's not about "getting wet" and the word in arabic dates to a period
> where there were no substantial amount of turks around the area.
>
> >
> > yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish)
> > yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish)
>
> none of these three words are attested.
All you have to do is join Altainet and ask them. cumduruk is attested,
alive and well. cum=yum in y-Turkic. Indeed what I wrote above
solved a critical problem in Altaics. It might show up in a journal soon
if it has not already. It is connected with Mongolian nidurga.
> > kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish)
> >
> >The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form
> >cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative
> >'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even
> >in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year
> >ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't
> >recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga.
> >
> >
>
> irrelevant to this thread.
That is unfortunate that you say that because every linguist knows
or should know that it is indeed most relevant because that is
what historical linguistics is about.
May I suggest that you graduate to the next level, give up reading
and repeating and start using the rules to reconstruct? I am sincere.
If you want to see it done, join Altainet.
H.M.Hubey
Cluster User wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:01:55 -0400, "H.M.Hubey"
> <hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Cluster User wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
> >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
> >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
> >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
> >
> >OK, then show me
>
> the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling
> with -q contrary to turkish phonetics.
1. Spelling in the Redhouse dictionary has no q and cannot have it
either
because there is no q in Turkish.
2. That argument is not an argument. There are Turkic speakers who use
a q instead of a k as a matter of dialect. The Istanbul city-slicker
dialect might not have it but Turkish had it, and some still have it.
Turkic has k, q, x, h, gh, etc.
> z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab
> occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a
> literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a
> rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian
> and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z -
> present stem, anda:*kh* past stem.
If k>z in Farsi after the word passed into Turkish it had to happen
after 1,000 CE or so. But I think it went the other way as can be
seen plainly from the reconstructed evidence. If you think that
experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and
ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join
the list. It is plainly not from Farsi.
Bobo Bonobo
cross-posts, but this is getting ridiculous.
--
Bryan
http://members.primary.net/~creekhiker/
Rock'n Roll is about throwing the mainstream
culture's ideas of morality and standards of behavior in the dumpster.
In short, Rock'n Roll is lascivious, blasphemous, arrogant and downright
sleazy. It is fantastic, escapist. Any rock that doesn't fit the above
description is not Rock'n Roll. It is merely "rock music."
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>>
>> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
>> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
>> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
>> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
>
>OK, then show me
the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling
with -q contrary to turkish phonetics.
>
>1. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which a > i
see above.
>2. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which z > k
see above.
>
>One might find a>i from Farsi to Arabic, but I doubt you will find
a ~ i is internal to arabic.
>z > k. Otherwise how do you get a:bri:z > ibrik?
z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab
occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a
literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a
rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian
and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z -
present stem, anda:*kh* past stem.
note also sindh (indic) / hind (old persian)
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>> >is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand,
>> >look at how words are formed in Turkic:
>> >
>>
>> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is
>> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of
>> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such
>> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common.
>>
>> arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a
>> word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending),
>> thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic,
>> probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there
>> are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in
>> loans.
>...
>> there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give
>> bad examples.
>
>Since the earliest form goes back as far as Sumerian they must all
>be from Sumerian.
irrelevant ot this thread.
>
>Meanwhile....
>
>I stick to my derivation. Here it is again. cibi/yibi is Turkic for
do whatever you like. try publishing it if you can! frankly I don't
think you are sincere.
>"get wet".
it's not about "getting wet" and the word in arabic dates to a period
where there were no substantial amount of turks around the area.
>
> yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish)
> yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish)
none of these two words are attested and ibrik is not originally
turkish.
> kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish)
>
>The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form
>cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative
>'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even
>in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year
>ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't
>recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga.
>
>
irrelevant to this thread.
>--
Murat Kalinyaprak
>On 18 Jul 1999 07:33:15 GMT, tis...@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote:
>>In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be
>>something which resembles this coffee cup, however, used
>>upside down, made of sun dried mud and straw with many small
>>holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide at its
>>rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly
>>hatched chicks from beeing prayed upon by cats during the
>>nights and it is called "pin." I don't have the slightest
>>idea about it's origin or etymology.
>probably from pinga:n.
Heh, heh... Of Course, but why just probably...? Why
not certainly...?
>>However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge-
>>(a sound ?), then it would be very easy to give the word
>>"finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology.
>no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg
>prior to turkish settlement in and around arab lands.
So what...? I'm sure you will be willing to apply this
requirement from now on regarding words borrowed into
Turkish from other languages also, right...? For example,
no Arabic word could have been borrowed into Turkish
until Arab settlements in and around Turkish lands...?
Anyway, enough time wasted with you; back to Tisinli's
question. There is the verb "pineklemek" in Turkish,
which means "sitting around lazily, in a half-asleep
state" ("uyuklar gibi oturmak") and which is used to
my knowledge insinuating "like chickens" (similar to
"tuneklemek"??). I suppose it could describe how newly
hatched "chicks" sit/stand around in a "pin"...?
Also, this made me curious about the "pin-" in words
like "pinti and pinpirik". Does anyone know if they
are native to Turkish and what the "pin-" in them may
mean...?
MK
Skitt
Cluster User
>We beg you, get this thread out of AUE.
>
fine. I responded in alt.coffee and sci.lang only, trying to stick
only to the history of the words in the origianl post.
Cluster User
the word is qur'anic: (appearing in the plural)
56:18
bi'akwa:bin wa'aba:ri:qa waka'sin min ma`i:n(in)
with cups and jugs ('aba:ri:q) , and a glass from the flowing wine
(al-hilali, muhsin khan translation)
it was recognised as a loan from persian, from a:b ri:z, by classical
lexicographers. see lane I p. 192.
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
>
> Isadora S Cohen wrote:
>
> > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts
> > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of
> > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in
> > Israel.
>
> It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian.
Also in Albanian, IIRC ("filxhan", a cup). My memory may serve me wrong
here, though.
Cheers,
Philip
H.M.Hubey
Now I have to post a reply :-)
Turkic su/suw (water) is said to come from prototurkic *sub. Turkic
verb for 'to wash' is cuw/yuw so that Turkish yika is an irregular
form. Now we may posit *cub/*yub for prototurkic. Meanwhile, Turkic
words for "to get wet" are cibi/yibi. It is not uncommon for Turkic
verbs to have the form CVCV but sometimes other languages have the
form CVC. Furthermore, some Turkic verbs of form CVCV (as examples
posted
by Tisinli show) come from nouns of form CVC as in kan (blood) and
kana (to bleed). So the form cib/yib could have easily had a meaning
of water or wet-thing. The noun formations like
yudrug < yum-dur-uk > yumruk
kardash < kar-in-dash > karnash
also exist very clearly. In this case, the original form and the
transitions clearly point to
yib-idir-ik > yibrik > ibrik
or
yibi-dir-ik > yibirik > yibrik > ibrik.
Furthermore after seeing the forms for water and related verbs
it does not take much thought to assume that a form such as
ab can easily have come from those above since the sound
changes s > h > 0 are very common. Besides all this, as far as
I know there is no ab root for water in Indo-European. The word
is most likely a loan from old/ancient Turkic into Iranian/Farsi.
Besides all this, it known that Turkic languages went thru changes
like *d > c > y. So the word tir (Sumerian for land, earth), would
be dir in d-bolgaric, cer in Kipchak Turkic and is yer in Oguz/Turkmen
Turkish. This word, obviously 'earth' in English also seems to be
related to ARabic ardh. So there is yet another regular form.
Cluster User wrote:
>
> addendum. for the full text see:
>
> From: cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
> Newsgroups: sci.lang
> Subject: Re: More Fun with Japanese & Turkish
> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:55:33 GMT
> ----
>
> {...}
>
> there is no calim for ib- in iranian. ib- of arabic (qur'anic) 'ibri:q
> (ewer) comes from persian a:b, water, IE. the change of the vowel is
> internal to arabic. other examples from the period are 'ifri:qiyya(t)
> "africa", 'ibra:hi:m "abraham". this is not unexpected of what we know
> about the eastern dialects at the time. the lakhmids, an arab dyansty
> also using syriac straddling arabia and iran at the time, were clients
> of the sasanid dynasty of persia. they constituted a center for arab
> culture at the time. the qur'anic description of ewers of wine could
> have come from a description of life at their court. a typical late
> middle persian loan in early classical arabic. turkic
> {...}
> have nothing to do with it!
Cluster User
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>YOu should not have posted this to all the lists :-)
>
>Now I have to post a reply :-)
>
write all the (false, imaginary) equations you want, your assertion is
a-historical and ad-hoc - based on a personal desire to identify
something as turkic or simply out of taking this as a game. your
assertionm about iranian ab is also well known to be false. should
the miracle happen (and I will become a believer then) and you get
that published in a serious journal then anounce these to us. I had no
desire to further this argument and I have no need to either. I even
thought that you had come to your senses. I merely had illustrated the
historical setting in which the word was borrowed into arabic in a
post in sci.lang and I thought that the original readership of the
thread would benefit from it.
Skitt
Cluster User <cluste...@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:37a09d0e....@news.yale.edu...
Please! Quit posting your stuff to AUE (alt.english.usage).
I know, I know -- I'm a voice in the wilderness, but hey, I try.
--
Skitt (on Florida's Space Coast) http://i.am/skitt/
... and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
H.M.Hubey
don't let linguists read you spitting on their scholarly activity :-)
They will roast you, accuse you of being a racist, a fascist, a moron,
a child molester and then try to chase you off someplace from where they
hope you never return.
That is how "linguistics paleontology" is done, and this is the method
they use to infer truth about prehistory that they triumphantly write
up in science magazines, New York Times, etc.
Either it works or it does not. As they say, sauce for the goose is
sauce for the gander. Consistency is usually a virtue. Maybe in
linguistics
ad hocery is just as important :-)
Either you will do linguistics as linguists do, or teach them how
to do things correctly. If you do neither, then you have no business
attempting to pass off what you write as scholarship. Those things
that you quote from books were written by people who took guesses
at various things; sort of potshots in the dark, hoping that
nobody else would notice. There is no root in IE languages for
water that has ab as far as I know. I gave you all the evidence
you need to evaluate it correctly, assuming that linguists do
and have been doing it correctly.
If you want more, here they are. Along with reconstruction which
uses data from several (putatively) related languages, which is
called the comparative method, linguists also use a method called
the internal reconstruction method. In this they employ the same
idea but use only data internal to a single language. If you look
at Turkic languages you will see evidence that a whole set of
words relate both phonetically and semantically and indicate that
these words are native to the language and that they are very
ancient.
ach = to open, ach=hungry. It is rather easy to see that open-mouthed
here is referring to hunger. achy=bitter, sour, ich=to drink. ash=food,
asha=to eat, pish=to cook, hashla=to cook by boiling.
Now linguists have already
determined that the sound changes in prototurkic were *p > *h > 0.
As you can see in pish > hashla > ash these are exactly the sound
changes. There are loads of words in Altaic, and Uralic which are
very similar to these and mean similar things. Furthermore, we have
words like ak = to flow, akar = that which flows. Hittite has eku=to
drink, naturally pointing to something like akua/aqua = water, or to
drink. But recall Turkic ich=to drink, ak=to flow.
Anyway, there are so many that I sometimes think that linguists
who knew must have deliberately ignored all of these.
--
Cluster User
<hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
>don't let linguists read you spitting on their scholarly activity :-)
>
>They will roast you, accuse you of being a racist, a fascist, a moron,
>
cut the BS
BARIS CIVELEK
Distribution:
Cluster User (cluste...@yale.edu) wrote:
: On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:58:33 -0400, "H.M.Hubey"
: <hub...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
: cut the BS
This is the "juiciest" thing I've ever seen Cluster write