Ismaili Kalima (third part) - a grammatical analysis
Asgar Waliji
"Ismaili Kalima (third part)" - a grammatical analysis
Date:
Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:55:19 -0400
From:
Asgar Waliji <wali...@bellsouth.net>
To:
Akbarally Meherally <trus...@bc.sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.islam.shia, soc.religion.islam
Subject:
Re: ...Meherally REFUTED AGAIN!!!!
Date:
Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:14:14 -0400
From:
Asgar Waliji <wali...@bellsouth.net>
To:
Akbarally Meherally <trus...@bc.sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups:
soc.religion.islam, alt.religion.islam.shia
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7
Dear brother Akbarally Meherally,
I offer the following grammatical analysis of the third part of Ismaili
(Aga
Khani) Kalima, as reported by you. According to you, the Kalima reads:
"Aliyyun Amirul-mu'mineen Aliyyullah."
"Amirul-mu'mineen Ali Sahi (Truly) Allah."
The first line is a complete sentence with ONE subject and TWO
predicates:
Subject is "Aliyyun". It obviously refers to Ali ibn Abi Talib.
The first predicate is "Amirul-mu'mineen" This translates as "the
Leader
(or Commander or Prince) of the Faithful."
The second predicate is "Aliyullah". It literally translateas as "Ali
Allah". If "Ali" refers to Ali ibn Abi Talib, then predicate is
meaningless, being juxtaposition of two proper nouns. However, if "Ali"
means "The most high", as claimed by Ninja, the predicate becomes
plausibly
and completely meaningful.
Therefore, "Aliyyun Amirul-mu'mineen Aliyyullah" can be read:
"Ali (is) Amirul-mu'mineen, (is) Aliyullah"
In Arabic, there is no word for 'is'.
The sentence then means:
"Ali is the Commander of the Faithful, the most High of Allah."
The second line of the third part of the Kalima, according to you , is:
"Amirul-mu'mineen Ali Sahi (Truly) Allah."
This line has odd Arabic construction, and I cannot truly say what it
means. If I wanted to say that Ali, the Commander of the faithful is
truly
Allah, I would not use this construction. I would write something like:
"Inna Aliyyun amirul mu'mineen Ilahan Sahhan". Not a good construction
at
all (in fact, bad Arabic) and definitely "Shirk".
I cannot therefore conclude what it truly means. It may be classical or
archaic Arabic.
I would hazard a guess and say that the line probably means:
"Ali, the Commander of the Faithful is (or speaks) the truth, O Allah."
Of course, it is possible that "Amirul-mu'mineen Ali Sahi (Truly) Allah"
is not Arabic at all, but is a sentence in Gujarati or Urdu. In that
case, my translation makes perfect sense.
I would not go by translations, even if they are official. These are
subject to error of human frailty. Only the original words of the
Quraan, Nabi (saw) or Imam, whatever language they are in, are correct.
And they are re-interpreted in every age.
To summarize, the Aga Khani Kalima's third part means, I believe,
"Ali is the Commander of the Faithful, the most High of Allah."
"Ali, the Commander of the Faithful is (or speaks) the truth, O Allah."
Akbarally Meherally wrote:
> Here is the complete text of the third part of the
> Kalimah Shahadah of the Ismailis and it's translation
> from the officially published DU'A Book of the Ismailis:
>
> "Aliyyun Amirul-mu'mineen Aliyyullah."
> "Aly, the master of the believers, is from Allah."
>
> "Amirul-mu'mineen Ali Sahi (Truly) Allah."
>
Navali
BISMILLAAHIR RAHMAANIR RAHIIM
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, RAHMAN RAHIM
074.052
PICKTHAL: Nay, but everyone of them desireth that he should be given
open pages (from Allah).
-------
PICKTHAL 49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them,
O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the FAITH hath
not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger,
He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo!
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
049.017
YUSUFALI: They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam.
Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a
favour upon you that He has guided you to the FAITH, if ye be true and
sincere.
-----------
What was Jibriil’s position in Islam?
HQ. 2:98. Say `Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel' - for HE it is
who--innaHUU has revealed HIM/IT--HUU on thy heart by the command of ALLAH
HQ. 2:99. `Whoever is an enemy to ALLAH, and HIS angels, and HIS
Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then surely, ALLAH is an enemy to such
disbelievers.'
-----------
In other words, did Allah Himself associate with the above? Is this the
Allah’s Party referred to at HQ. 5:55,56 & 58:22? Please prove it, if you
believe otherwise.
And if He did then, what right do you have to cut asunder that which He has
commanded to be joined UNTO HIM?
002.027 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and
sever *MAA--HE WHO/THAT* [which] Allah ordered to be joined *BIHII- -TO HIM*
and make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.
--------
Furthermore, the Holy Prophet (SAS) not only WORSHIPPED “MAA--HE WHOM” --
Allah had “commanded to be JOINED UNTO HIM -- BIHII” @ HQ. 2:27 -- but He
also proclaimed that -- ‘Maa’s Religion’ -- WAS/IS -- “MY RELIGION.” Again,
here’s the proof:
005.067 O Messenger! PROCLAIM THAT which [“BALLIG MAA--HE WHOM”]
hath been -- UNZILA--REVEALED -- unto thee from thy Lord, for IF thou do it
NOT, thou wilt NOT have CONVEYED His message. Allah will PROTECT thee from
mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. Again, what did what
was revealed to Him and what did He proclaim?
--------------
What was He (SAS) commanded to PROCLAIM at the end of His 23 year old
mission -- i.e., just before his death? We are told that he was poisoned 82
days later. So how did Allah protect Him?
The PROTECTION referred to here was from mankind, the enemies of faith and
religion, the Arab ‘disbelievers and hypocrites’ mentioned earlier.
Further, all Shia Ithna’ashari sources say that this verse pertained to
Hzt. Ali (as) and His Imamate -- which Allah had promised to continue in
Hzt. Abraham’s (as) zurriyyat--seed -- [HQ. 2:124}. Anyway, what did the
Holy Prophet (SAS) DECLARE among other things then?
http://info.uah.edu/msa/quran/shakir/109.TheUnbelievers
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1. Say: O unbelievers!
3. Nor do you serve -- [MAA] -- HIM WHOM I serve [WORSHIP] :
5. Nor are you going to serve -- [MAA] -- HIM WHOM I serve [WORSHIP]:
6. You shall have your religion AND I SHALL MY RELIGION--WA LI-YA DIINA.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------
QUESTIONS
1. WHO was/is that “MAA” WHOM Allah commanded to be joined “UNTO
HIM--BIHII” @ HQ. 2:27?
2. Did not the Holy Prophet (SAS) also WORSHIP HIM?
3. And did not the Holy Prophet (SAS) call His Religion -- “MY
Religion or Diin”? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you need any more Qur’anic proof regarding what the Holy Prophet
(SAS) Followed and Worshipped all His life as well, what He was
commanded to PROCLAIM in the end? Well then consider this.
He did not follow the HIDDEN -- GAYBHA --GOD OR WHATEVER. He had no
knowledge of the Unseen-Hidden-Gayba. Now are Muslims today, more advanced
spiritually than their own Holy Prophet (SAS)?
006.049 But as for those who deny Our revelations, torment will afflict them
for that they used to disobey.
006.050 Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I
possess the treasures of Allah, NOR THAT IHAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE
UNSEEN--GHAYBA and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that
which is REVEALED TO ME. Say: Are the BLIND MAN and the SEER equal ? Will ye
not then take thought ?
------------
This then, is proof of ORIGIN of the Ismaili Tariqah cum the Holy Prophet’s
(SAS) own Path and Religion. In short, the Aga Khans [pbuth] have not misled
their followers. Instead, They have guided us to the Manifest Truth--Haqqul
Mubiin.
HQ. 006.115 Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and
justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer,
the Knower.
--------------
And YOU, aCkbaraLy mehIRNally AKA akbaraLLy mehERally -- HAVE BEEN misguided
all along due to your lust and insatiable greed for money and fame.
Moreover, you cannot even prove or defend your own faith and
practice(?) from the Holy Qur'an only. Hence, WHO are you?
HQ. 006.116 If thou obeyedst most of those on earth THEY would
MISLEAD thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion,
and they do but guess.
006.117 Lo! thy Lord, He knoweth best who erreth from His way;
and He knoweth best (who are) the rightly guided.
------------
Alaoudin23
Asgar Waliji <wali...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
> As regards "Aliyullah", I am not sure whether Ninja is misleading me.
The word
> "Ali" in Arabic could actually mean "The Most High".
Okay pal, them's fighting words. Ninjaa, (ie, me alaoudin23 in another
account), is not out to deceive or mislead anyone. I will fish out from
dejanews the exposition that I wrote over a year ago an this very topic.
In
this article, I made the very same comparison to the end statement of
Ayatul
Kursi that you do below.
>Could it not?
Yes, it does mean Most High or Elevated, and is derived from the same
root ayn
lam ya that the arabic Alaa (Lofty), and ala (upon) is derived from. In
fact
"Subhana Rabbiyal Alaa" can also be read as "Subhana Rabiyyal Alyy". The
words
are two sides of the same coin. The fact is that Alaa and Aliyy are both
the
same attribute, but the nuance is different.
>At the end of an ayat (2:255) in the Quran, there is a sentence
regarding Allah, which
> reads " Wa huwal Aliyyul Adheem" meaning "And He is the Most High,
the Most
> Magnificient". This is the famous Ayatul Kursi.
Similarly, the alternative reading is Huwa Alaa'l Adhim: He is the Lofty
the
Mighty. Remember, the diacritical vowel marks are an innovation
introduced
later.
>
> I am only concerned with sentence constructions and their meanings as
they appear
> to me.
Good, then you will agree that Aliyyullah is a definite article meaning
the
Most High of Allah. Refer to the Arabic script.
>I am not making any doctrinal or theological point abouth the faith of
the
> Aga Khani Ismailies. I leave you and the Ismailies to conduct that
engrossing
> debate which I intend to avidly follow.
>
Other than the snipe at Ninjaa (myself), your post has been quite good.
However, the analysis of al-Aliy opens up an entire realm of theological
discussion which only confirms the reality of the Ismat alhusna,
al-Aliy, whish is Amiral Momineen Alliyun Ali Sahi Allah.
The Arabic is a subtle language and uses a nonlinear topology and logic
in parallel to its eminent linearity, so pure lexical definition and
rigid grammar fails and one must understand the poetics and the
allegory, the MATHAL of the Quran.
> Asgar Waliji
>
> Akbarally Meherally wrote:
> SNIP<
Asgar Waliji
Alaoudin23 wrote:
> Good, then you will agree that Aliyyullah is a definite article meaning
> the
> Most High of Allah. Refer to the Arabic script.
>
Yes, I agree that "Aliyullah" means "The Most of High of Allah".
> Other than the snipe at Ninjaa (myself), your post has been quite good.
>
No, I wasn't sniping at you. I apologize if I gave that impression. My
position is that I respect and want to learn from various people's beliefs.
I do not want to engage in any dispute about them as to whether one set of
beliefs is "better" or "truer" than others. I know that other people engage
in these disputes and that I find them engrossing.
> However, the analysis of al-Aliy opens up an entire realm of theological
> discussion which only confirms the reality of the Ismat alhusna,
> al-Aliy, whish is Amiral Momineen Alliyun Ali Sahi Allah.
>
"al Ali" is certainly one of the "asmaa ul husnaa". It refers to Allah and
not to Ali ibn Abi Talib. As I have stated before I agree that it is
appropriate to refer to Ali ibn Abi Talib (alayhis salaam) as "Aliyullah".
> The Arabic is a subtle language and uses a nonlinear topology and logic
> in parallel to its eminent linearity, so pure lexical definition and
> rigid grammar fails and one must understand the poetics and the
> allegory, the MATHAL of the Quran.
>
>
Truly said. Lots of discussion can be attributed to differences in
understanding and interpretation of the faith amongst people who putatively
follow the same faith.
Asgar Waliji
Navali
;>
;> Dear Alaudin23,
;>
;> Alaoudin23 wrote:
;>
;> > Good, then you will agree that Aliyyullah is a definite article
meaning
;> > the
;> > Most High of Allah. Refer to the Arabic script.
;>
[snip
;>
;> "al Ali" is certainly one of the "asmaa ul husnaa". It refers to
Allah and
;> not to Ali ibn Abi Talib. As I have stated before I agree that it is
;> appropriate to refer to Ali ibn Abi Talib (alayhis salaam) as
"Aliyullah".
-------
NAVALI: What is the purpose of the above futile argument? Is not the
Holy Qur'an itself clear on this issue?
However, IF, *"al Ali" is certainly one of the "asmaa ul husnaa". It
refers to Allah,* then:
a. What about Allah and Rahman?
Even these are "asmaa ul husnaa" or Names/Attributes of Allah. See HQ.
17:100 below.
b. And in such a case who is Allah if -- His own Names and Attributes
are different from Him?
c. And why does Allah command the Muslims to *pray to Allah or pray to
Rahman,* if, both of which, are NO MORE THAN "asmaa ul husnaa"?
d. Now what is the difference between "asmaa ul husnaa, Names
/Attributes of Allah and Allah Himself?
If there is none then WHY seek to cause dissension between the Muslims
and thereby weaken the already weak Muslim Ummah? Is not Iman--Faith in
the Aayaatillaah--Revelations of Allah--IMAMS =[equal to]= Iman in Allah
Himself?
If it is then are these Holy Imams [pbuth] = "asmaa ul husnaa = Names
/Attributes of Allah NOT EQUAL TO Allah Himself? Please quote the Holy
Qur'an only in its right context, if you still believe otherwise.
Begin by explaining Surah al-Fatihah that every Muslim recites in his
Salah daily;
001.001 In the *NAME* of Allah, Rahman, Rahim
001.002 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
001.003 Ar-Rahmaanir Rahiim-- Rahman, Rahiim,
001.004 Master of the Day of Judgment,
001.005 Thee we worship; Thee we ask for help.
001.006 GUIDE us to the straight path--IHDINAS-Sirataal Mustaqiim
001.007 The path of THOSE--SirataAl-LAZIINA......
---------
Whose Path is Sirataal--Mustaqiim and WHY is Allah GUIDING to Sirataal-
laziina--the Path of THOSE -- INSTEAD of His Path, according to Surah
al-Fatihah ONLY? WHY did Allah Exalt THEM as well, JOIN THEM in His
WORSHIP?
Now here is Allah's most important Command. Not only have YOU & EVERY
MUSLIM -- been asked to do as above but YOU have also been asked to PRAY
like so:
017.110
1. Say pray unto Allah --Qulid'ullaah;
2. Or pray unto Rahman -- 'awid ur-Rah.maan;
3. Unto *MAA-HE WHO-THAT* which ye pray --- 'ayy(an) *MAA* taduu;
4. His are the most beautiful NAMES -- fa-la--hu al- asmaa' al- h.usnaa;
5. And thou be not loud-voiced in thy PRAYER--SALAATika;
6. -- nor yet silent therein,
7. but follow a way between.
017.110 Qulid 'ullaah 'awid ur-Rah.maan 'ayy(an) maa taduu fa- la--hu
al- asmaa' al- h.usnaa wa- laa tajhar bi- s.alaah -ka wa- laa
tukhaafit bi- -haa wa- ibtaghi bayna dhaalika sabel(an)
-----
Care to explain the above?
However, if we continue to follow your grammatical construction and
other arguments then by that same token, we could now assert that Allah
has also reduced Himself to an Attribute which, is also different from
Allah, the God of your faith and fascination.
Now WHY have the Muslims been asked to pray to 2 Attributes/NAMES viz.,
Allah & Rahman instead of Allah Himself? And why just 2 out of 99 Names
and Attributes of Allah? In other words, WHY is Allah asking the Muslims
to PRAY to His Attributes viz., Allah & Rahman [i.e., the Holy Imam (SA)
of the Age] INSTEAD of Allah Himself?
Also, WHY did Allah REVEAL -- *B_I_S_M_ILLAAHIR RAHMAANIR RAHIIM - *IN
THE _N_A_M_E*_ OF ALLAH, RAHMAN, RAHIIM -- and thereby EQUATE "asmaa ul
husnaa, Name/Attributes viz., Allah, Rahman and Rahim [the Holy Imam
(SA) of the Age] to Himself i.e., to ALLAH of your faith and
fascination? See 27:30.
Some Qur'an based answers will be highly appreciated.
Salaam,
Navali
------------
;>
;>
;> Asgar Waliji
Navali
Navali
the trustone], has got a serious problem. He is clearly showing us his
disregard for the Holy Qur'an.
Frankly, what more evidence does he want besides the Holy Qur'an?
Apparently, he does not have Islam's welfare at heart. Otherwise, let
him refute the Holy Qur'an FROM _W_H_I_C_H_ THE ISMAILI DU'A has been
DERIVED or CONSTRUCTED -- WORD TO WORD and I mean -- WORD TO WORD
INCLUDING THE PHRASES OF HIS CONTENTION!
Will he care to challenge me on this one on these newsgroups? I have
proved him a liar and a deceiver before and will do it again, if need
be. On the other hand, if he is right then I will become a Sunni Muslim
OPENLY and follow ONLY THAT which was REVEALED to and FOLLOWED the Holy
Prophet (SAS), according to the Holy Qur'an ONLY.
2:4. And who believe in that-- HE WHO -- BIMAA -- which has been
REVEALED -- to THEE -- UNZILA ILAYKA -- and that/HE WHO -- WA MAA --
which was revealed before thee and they have firm faith in the
hereafter.
2:4. It is they who follow the GUIDANCE FROM THEIR LORD and it is they
who shall prosper.
http://info.uah.edu/msa/quran/shakir/109.TheUnbelievers
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1. Say: O unbelievers!
3. Nor do you serve -- [MAA] -- HIM WHOM I serve [WORSHIP] :
5. Nor are you going to serve -- [MAA] -- HIM WHOM I serve [WORSHIP]:
6. You shall have your religion--lakum Diinukum -- AND I SHALL MY
RELIGION--WA LI-YA DIINA.
------------
But on the other hand, will he GIVE UP ISLAM altogether if he loses the
debate -- which should be judged by 3 knowledgeable, unbiased and
objective non-ISMAILI Muslims -- acceptable by both parties? Let him
accept this challenge here and now, if he means well or shut up for
good.
Rest assured, this EX_Muslim, BETRAYER of Islam and Rashad Khalifa
follower's only intent is fight the HOLY QUR'AN and weaken the already
weak Muslim Ummah. When he is proved wrong, he says not a word about it,
as is the exact case here. See below. Hence, WHY should FAITHFUL Muslims
harm their souls by following this agent and follower of Satan?
I would request my Ismaili brothers to IGNORE HIM completely. We have,
by Ali Allah's infinite Grace and Mercy -- proved the truth and reality
of the Ismaili Tariqah from the Holy Qur'an, which he has yet to do
about his own faith -- whatever that is.
This Chapter is now closed.
LONG LIVE THE ISMAILI MUSLIM TARIQAH --
THE _ONLY_ DIVINE PRECIOUS
PEARL IN ISLAM
Navali
akbaraLLy Merely wrote in message <35EF3B49...@bc.sympatico.ca>...
>Asgar Waliji wrote:
>>
>12. I would request "you" to respond the above questions that are
>POSED to "you" as a SCHOLAR of Arabic Grammar. I am only interested >in debating with you on one to one bases.
NAVALI: This Shaytan in disguise has a major problem. What more
evidence does he want. Let him refute the Holy Qur'an FROM WHICH THE
ISMAILI DU'A has been DERIVED or CONSTRUCTED -- WORD TO WORD and I mean
WORD TO WORD -- INCLUDING THE PHRASES OF HIS CONTENTION!
>
>-- akbaraLLy mehERally, the DECEIVING ONE
>Visit: http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/trust
>Title: 'Reflections on Christianity, Islam & Ismailism'
Asgar Waliji wrote:
>
AltWay
wrote:
Whose Path is Sirataal--Mustaqiim and WHY is Allah GUIDING to Sirataal-
laziina--the Path of THOSE -- INSTEAD of His Path, according to Surah
al-Fatihah ONLY? WHY did Allah Exalt THEM as well, JOIN THEM in His
WORSHIP?
Comment :-
Still continues his confused thinking.
Islam is Surrender to Allah, not to Ali.
Ali was the son in law of Muhammad (saw) who was a Messenger of Allah.
Ali was not the Messenger of Allah either.
It is very simple. No convoluted thinking is necessary.
I am sure everyone else, even the simplest, can see this!!!
H.S.Aziz
--
_ ___ _ _____________________________________________
|_| | | | | |_| \ / /
| | |_ | |/\| | | | /... For more info Read "The Alternative Way"
_______________________/ ... on www.argonet.co.uk/education/haziz
______________________/ ... ha...@argonet.co.uk
killm...@killarabs.net
and the rest of those bastards were nothing more than a bunch of filthy, smelly
backward lizzard eaters!
Shahbaz Husain
Thanks for the intelligent reply! You must be part of that fabled group,
the racist BASTARD.. If you don't have anything constructive to write then
you simply shouldn't write anything
--
Shahbaz
shahb...@hotmail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~shahbaz786/index.html
killm...@Killarabs.net wrote in message
<35EFB8B6...@Killarabs.net>...