update on cats' progresses
Average Joe
going to order more
I know the small vendor www.vegancats.com doesn't have economies of
scale, but my non-vegan diet for them was costing $1/day and the vegan
diet will cost $2
the average man on earth lives on $1/day
the average citizen of USA $57
the average man on earth could not afford this, it is my belief vegan
sources are cheaper than non-vegan sources
4% of the average USA income, is high in the US, let alone other
countries
--
My solution to the world's problems?
www.mysolution.ws
Average Joe - chat with me live on my site
a
cats progress report average dick. Get a life loser.
Larry
important issue for vegetarians everywhere, as who would want to kill
unnecessary animals if not needed. My cat has never touched a mammal in
it's 17 years, but is not a vegetarian. Dutch doesn't believe me, but it's
true (actually he caught a chipmunk a few times so maybe I'm exaggerating a
little) He's an indoor cat except on very rare occasions he slips out.
"Average Joe" <avera...@mysolution.ws> wrote in message
news:gc96vucbjqqtq3euf...@4ax.com...
CaringIsTheFirstStep
Is there a link for the evolution vegan diet? I just came into this topic
new now.
thanks
Jon
Thomas Haenselmann
> on the 3rd day they started eating the evolution vegan diet, so I am
> going to order more
did you ever consider consulting a veg to get a more scientific opinion on
what you are doing? Maybe another strong opinion could help you make your
decision.
By the way: Did you take into account that your cats also expressed their
opinions on what you are doing? Doesn't that also count, especially since
they are the ones who are so severely influenced by what you are doing?
Thomas
--
Personal reply is very welcome. Please see www.haenselmann.de
for my current e-mail. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Thomas Haenselmann
> If you were starving you would eat it too.Nobody gives a rats ass on your
> cats progress report average dick. Get a life loser.
I wouldn't put it that straight. Average Joe definitely is a person that
considers a lot what he is doing and probably doesn't make decisions
carelessly. However I agree that he might have slipped into a mentality he
will no easily get out again himself.
That doesn't make it more acceptable to insult him, especially not
anonymously. If you don't want to be associated with your opinions you
should reconsider them. By the way: That applies to the majority of the
posters of this newsgroup.
And last not least: Learn to quote. In germany people always quoting full
messages without really going into it are called full-quottel (relating to
Trottel which means fool).
Average Joe
<resp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Is there a link for the evolution vegan diet?
Average Joe
cows or considerably more smaller species should I not find
alternatives
now I am taking my committment to care for these animals as seriously
as I am taking my desire to stop the cycle of death of animals in
general
they are eating the vegan diet
should they stop
1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
parts of animals that would be discarded
2) combine those with the vegan diet to minimize the cycle of death
should the vegan diet be proved malnutritous, I will
1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
parts of animals that would be discarded
:)
> going to order more
>
> I know the small vendor www.vegancats.com doesn't have economies of
> scale, but my non-vegan diet for them was costing $1/day and the vegan
> diet will cost $2
>
> the average man on earth lives on $1/day
> the average citizen of USA $57
Same old US bashing? Everyone knows we can't have our 5 TV's with digital
cable, DVD's, SUV's and Outback steakhouse for $1 a day. Maybe those poor
people in those other countries can get a job or something.... :>/
:)
"Larry" <lmpmd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mfydnXTjYaC...@comcast.com...
> Keep us informed. I am very interested in your progress. This is a very
> important issue for vegetarians everywhere, as who would want to kill
> unnecessary animals if not needed. My cat has never touched a mammal in
> it's 17 years, but is not a vegetarian. Dutch doesn't believe me, but
it's
> true (actually he caught a chipmunk a few times so maybe I'm exaggerating
a
> little) He's an indoor cat except on very rare occasions he slips out.
So does this mean we are in favor of animal experimentations? :)
:)
> Thomas, the rest of the lives of my cats will entail the death of 4
> cows or considerably more smaller species should I not find
> alternatives
>
> now I am taking my committment to care for these animals as seriously
> as I am taking my desire to stop the cycle of death of animals in
> general
>
> they are eating the vegan diet
>
> should they stop
>
> 1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
> parts of animals that would be discarded
> 2) combine those with the vegan diet to minimize the cycle of death
>
> should the vegan diet be proved malnutritous, I will
>
> 1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
> parts of animals that would be discarded
You realize you are using your cats for experimentaions. Might I suggest you
practice vegansim on yourself and leave the cats (carnivores by nature) to
their more natural diets. You could cut out the foods made with beef since
most small cats would never eat a cow in nature anyways, and you can try
feeding them freerange birds (turkey and chicken) and fish in a raw state
with a small bit of veggies mixed in.
Lyn
> cows or considerably more smaller species should I not find
> alternatives
>
> now I am taking my committment to care for these animals as seriously
> as I am taking my desire to stop the cycle of death of animals in
> general
>
> they are eating the vegan diet
You are doing your cats a huge disservce. Cats are obligate
carnivores. I have seen the ill effects of a vegan diet on cats, as I
worked for a cat specialist vet. Please seek veterinary advice before
proceeding further.
>
> should they stop
>
> 1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
> parts of animals that would be discarded
That's the worst thing you could feed a cat.
If you are concerned about the ethics of factory farming and mass
slaughter, raise your own poultry and slaughter it yourself, to ensure
it lives a wholesome life and dies with dignity. Either that, or buy
whole prey items to feed to your cats (rodents, birds) and let them
kill and eat them. Otherwise, you are abusing your cat by inflicting
your own morals/ethics upon an animal which relies soley on you for
its life. There is nothing vegan about what you are doing.
-L.
Michael Cerkowski
>
> Average Joe <avera...@mysolution.ws> wrote in message news:<chnavu8r2hll56ucg...@4ax.com>...
> > Thomas, the rest of the lives of my cats will entail the death of 4
> > cows or considerably more smaller species should I not find
> > alternatives
> >
> > now I am taking my committment to care for these animals as seriously
> > as I am taking my desire to stop the cycle of death of animals in
> > general
> >
> > they are eating the vegan diet
>
> You are doing your cats a huge disservce. Cats are obligate
> carnivores. I have seen the ill effects of a vegan diet on cats, as I
> worked for a cat specialist vet. Please seek veterinary advice before
> proceeding further.
He's using a commercial vegan cat food that is probably
veterinarian-approved. Have you seen problems under these
circumstances, or are you just generalizing? There is no
question that cats don't do well on a plant-based diet
without extensive supplementation.
>
> >
> > should they stop
> >
> > 1) I will seek out more by-product oriented meat-foods, that utilize
> > parts of animals that would be discarded
>
> That's the worst thing you could feed a cat.
I believe that you just said that vegan cat food was the
worst thing you could feed a cat. ;) Friskies isn't health
food, but it isn't poison, either, like some of the more
expensive foil-packaged soft "treats" that contain glycols...
>
> If you are concerned about the ethics of factory farming and mass
> slaughter, raise your own poultry and slaughter it yourself, to ensure
> it lives a wholesome life and dies with dignity. Either that, or buy
> whole prey items to feed to your cats (rodents, birds) and let them
> kill and eat them. Otherwise, you are abusing your cat by inflicting
> your own morals/ethics upon an animal which relies soley on you for
> its life. There is nothing vegan about what you are doing.
>
> -L.
That's wasn't very helpful. A more realistic option for a vegan
would be to find a local organic livestock operation that treats
the animals well and slaughters on-site, and to buy less-choice
cuts of meat from them to add to the commercial vegan food. You
may not have intended it as such, but your post reads more like
a 'troll' than an attempt to help...
--
A.M.
news:3DF678...@albany.net...
> That's wasn't very helpful. A more realistic option for a vegan
> would be to find a local organic livestock operation that treats
> the animals well and slaughters on-site, and to buy less-choice
> cuts of meat from them to add to the commercial vegan food. You
> may not have intended it as such, but your post reads more like
> a 'troll' than an attempt to help...
I don't think a vegan can own a cat. It's an ethical contradiction.
Michael Cerkowski
>
> "Michael Cerkowski" <mj...@albany.net> wrote in message
> news:3DF678...@albany.net...
> > That's wasn't very helpful. A more realistic option for a vegan
> > would be to find a local organic livestock operation that treats
> > the animals well and slaughters on-site, and to buy less-choice
> > cuts of meat from them to add to the commercial vegan food. You
> > may not have intended it as such, but your post reads more like
> > a 'troll' than an attempt to help...
>
> I don't think a vegan can own a cat. It's an ethical contradiction.
I don't think they can either. Many of them do, however, harbor
cats.
--
Thomas Haenselmann
> carnivores. I have seen the ill effects of a vegan diet on cats, as I
> worked for a cat specialist vet. Please seek veterinary advice before
> proceeding further.
I am no vet myself but as far as I know the problem about feeding a cat
vegetables is the cat's short bowel. Since it is so short the energy of the
food must be very high. Herbivores have a much longer bowel and thus can
exploit low energy food very well.
To me it simply seems that nature didn't take into account that there might be
something like a vegan moral at least not for cats.
It's different for humans since their bowel can handel food without meet
pretty well. But I think the length of the bowel is only one aspect. Another
one is that you need certain enzymes to split the essentials out of the kind
of food you eat. And I doubt that cat's are equipped with all the necessary
features that are needed to stay healthy with that kind of diet.
You could at least mix the diet with meat waste as you suggested which would
possibly take into account the nature of your cat better. That fact itself
that your cats started eating the provided food does not mean that they will
stay healthy with that forever. I would assume that they can life with the
diet for a certain time without showing any signs. But if one of them finally
becomes ill you will never be able to tell if it was caused by the diet.
My own cat unfortunately died of a deadly infection. He always refused to eat
wet food so my only chance was to buy the best quality dry food that was
available.
Even though I will never know for sure I guess that he might still live if his
nutrition had been better.
CaringIsTheFirstStep
I'm glad they mention taurine. I knew a woman who was going to vet school,
and getting straight A's (I assume she was understanding the material well).
She ate meat, but said that dogs could be healthy on a solely plant-food
diet, and cats could also as long as they received taurine.
Dutch
> "Michael Cerkowski" <mj...@albany.net> wrote
> > That's wasn't very helpful. A more realistic option for a vegan
> > would be to find a local organic livestock operation that treats
> > the animals well and slaughters on-site, and to buy less-choice
> > cuts of meat from them to add to the commercial vegan food. You
> > may not have intended it as such, but your post reads more like
> > a 'troll' than an attempt to help...
>
> I don't think a vegan can own a cat. It's an ethical contradiction.
And being a vegan isn't?
Will Yardley
Pri...@user.kingsnake.com (Lyn) wrote:
> You are doing your cats a huge disservce. Cats are obligate
> carnivores. I have seen the ill effects of a vegan diet on cats, as I
> worked for a cat specialist vet. Please seek veterinary advice before
> proceeding further.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but my cat has been eating the
Evolution food for 2 or 3 years now, with no apparent adverse effects.
I've had other cats which have eaten this diet as well. Evolution, in
fact, guarantees that your pet will live a good deal longer on their
food than on conventional pet food.
I would certainly switch my cat to a meat or fish based diet if I felt
that she was unhealthy as a result of her vegetarian diet.
From their site:
"All Evolution Diet Pet Foods are 100% complete and meet AAFCO
standards for all life stages."
The synthetic taurine is one reason that Evolution is so expensive...
from all I've heard, taurine is the only nutrient that cats can't
naturally get from a plant based diet.
As others have pointed out, it's hard to say that this diet is any more
"unnatural" than many of the things in commercial pet food.
Average Joe wrote:
> "CaringIsTheFirstStep" wrote:
>> Is there a link for the evolution vegan diet?
The actual site is:
http://www.petfoodshop.com/
vegancats.com is a distributer of the Evolution products.
Michael Cerkowski wrote:
> A.M. wrote:
>> I don't think a vegan can own a cat. It's an ethical contradiction.
> I don't think they can either. Many of them do, however, harbor cats.
How so? Just because one doesn't eat animals doesn't mean that one
shouldn't have pets. Perhaps some / many vegans are against companion
animals, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's an ethical
contradiction (provided we're not *eating* the cats).
--
No copies, please.
To reply privately, simply reply; don't remove anything.
Larry
Even if she can't omit meat entirely, some diets are more ethical that
others. As discussed elsewhere some vegans will even use leather products.
Fish may be more ethical to kill than mammals. Factory farmed mammals may
be the least ethical. Don't give up on trying to be a little ethical if you
can't be completely ethical. My cat hasn't touched mammal in it's 17 yrs,
I haven't in 30 years, my 2 kids haven't ever. We draw our lines on
nonmammals in different places. Maybe we have an odd family?
George Russell
inflicting a vegetarian diet on a cat of mine, but I vaguely remember that
beta-carotene has been mentioned in these groups as another problem nutrient.
That is, you can get beta-carotene from vegan sources, but it's in the wrong form,
and unlike humans cats do not have a metabolism capable of transforming it into the
right form.
Michael Cerkowski
The nutrient in question is vitamin A; humans can convert beta
carotene
to vitamin A, but cats can't and dogs may not be able to either.
Happily,
there is also synthetic vitamin A, which is both less well absorbed
*and*
less toxic. Cats need several nutrients supplemented in a vegetarian
diet,
but Vegecat and presumably Evolve have these nutrients.
--
bizzybee
>
My cat hasn't touched mammal in it's 17 yrs,
> I haven't in 30 years, my 2 kids haven't ever. We draw our lines on
> nonmammals in different places. Maybe we have an odd family?
>
So you keep your cat locked up, huh? Unless you have a KittyCam on it 24hrs
a day, how can you possibly know what it does or does not eat? Unless it is
metally deficient or grossly overweight, IT WILL HUNT AND EAT mice, shrews,
voles and whatever other small furry mammals it can find. Drop the 'holier
than thou' - your cat does what comes naturally to all carnivores - it eats
meat. Get used to it.
bzzzzzzzzzzz
bizzybee
":)" <pho...@boing.com> wrote in message
news:YwjJ9.347120$fa.66...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> Same old US bashing? Everyone knows we can't have our 5 TV's with digital
> cable, DVD's, SUV's and Outback steakhouse for $1 a day. Maybe those poor
> people in those other countries can get a job or something.... :>/
>
was this an attempt at irony, or just another example of arrogance,
stupidity and poor taste?
bzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Larry
"bizzybee" <b...@propolis.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dfdb1b9$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
We have an indoor cat. No mice in the house. He is 17 yrs old and seems
happy and healthy - but he does eat food with fish in it. Our cat doesn't
eat mammals (and never has) and doesn't need them. If one attempts to eat
ethically, why shouldn't we apply it to our pets, if we can keep them
healthy that way. Why do you insist that my cat eat ground up dogs,
monkeys, and dophins - just because yours does? Get over it.
Dutch
[..]
> We have an indoor cat. No mice in the house. He is 17 yrs old and seems
> happy and healthy - but he does eat food with fish in it. Our cat doesn't
> eat mammals (and never has) and doesn't need them.
You aren't getting pure fish in a fish flavored cat food, I guarantee there
are beef and other by-products in there.
> If one attempts to eat
> ethically, why shouldn't we apply it to our pets, if we can keep them
> healthy that way. Why do you insist that my cat eat ground up dogs,
> monkeys, and dophins - just because yours does? Get over it.
None of those animals go into pet food, why do always make an effort to make
irrelevant remarks?
bizzybee
So you DO keep your cat locked up. And you dare to preach about alleged
cruelty to other animals!
bzzzzzzz
Nancy Wolfe
>
> So you DO keep your cat locked up. And you dare to preach about alleged
> cruelty to other animals!
An indoor cat isn't necessarily locked up. I had a cat that was mortally
terrified of the outside, wouldn't go near the door if it was open, and was
perfectly happy staying in the house. Taking her to the vet required a
covered carrier, as any inkling that she was outside would lead to kitty
hysterics. I had this cat from a very young age, apparently she was never
abused before I met her, and certainly not after - she just didn't like
being outside. Living on a street with a lot of traffic, I never tried to
persuade her otherwise, and I'm certain she lived longer because of it.
Katherine
:)
You tell me what's poor taste. My comment or the fact that we are all
sitting at home on our asses discussing weather or not Fluffy the cat should
become a vegan. :)