A sincere QUESTION 4 my HINDU FRIENDS- no flames please !!!!!!!
OH
Subject: Did you know Rama's mom had sexual intercourse with a
horse???
Ron Peterson <ronp...@MailAndNews.com>
Yes it's true, it's recorded in the Ramayana that Rama's mom had sex
with a horse...check it out:
http://hindutruths.cjb.net
I must tell you I am a Muslim and a PAKISTANI Muslim at that,
and you know how DUMB we can be , we just do not understand
the obvious things, which you probably have no problem understanding
and comperhending.
SO I thought I shall ask you the question and increase my knowledge a
bit.
THANX IN ADVANCE 4 YOUR ANSWERS AND TROUBLE.
HERE IT GOES:
In the above post by Mr.Peterson and on this site
http://hindutruths.cjb.net
it is said that LORD RAMA'S esteemed mother had sex with a dead
horse.
Q-1 couldn't she find a suitable man ?
Q-2 Couldn't she find atleast an alive horse ?
Q-3 OR may be the horse was alive untill he saw LORD's dear mother?
AGAIN< NO FLAMES PLEASE, only serious answers to few serious question
about some very very serious situation.
Mo
pointed it out a long time ago . Its just some stories made
up by dumb ISI Paindoos who dont have the brains to think
beyond the Prophet's crazy one God theory which has harmed
humankind so much
Madurai Veeran
You should consult the 'holy' brahminist scriptures called Vedas. There you
will find definitive explanation for the need for equine-human sex. Such
customs are not true Indian (Hindu) customs. [ True Hindus consider their
women to be the symbol of life itself.] They were the inventions of
demented humanoid species called brahmins, who under the influence of
hallucinogens called soma rasa, an extract from some mushrooms, experimented
with such bizarre forms of sex in the name of religious ritual.
So if you come across an Indian, ask him if he is a brahmin. If he is,
don't trust your horse with him.
Madurai Veeran
B A <lee...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:38AA172E...@netscape.net...
> I too want to know whether if there is any shred of evidence
> in Rama's mother having sex with a horse,though,it sounds bizzare
> to me.
>
> Are there any institution or authority to proof or disproof this.
>
thok...@my-deja.com
"Madurai Veeran" <mark...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It is an aryan religious ritual. It is called Ashwameda yagna.
>
> You should consult the 'holy' brahminist scriptures called Vedas.
There you
> will find definitive explanation for the need for equine-human sex.
Such
> customs are not true Indian (Hindu) customs. [ True Hindus consider
their
> women to be the symbol of life itself.] They were the inventions of
> demented humanoid species called brahmins, who under the influence of
> hallucinogens called soma rasa, an extract from some mushrooms,
experimented
> with such bizarre forms of sex in the name of religious ritual.
>
> So if you come across an Indian, ask him if he is a brahmin. If he is,
> don't trust your horse with him.
>
> Madurai Veeran
>Prof. Veeran Jogi Baba,
>The ancient scriptures mention about wife of King Dasrath,mother
>of rama being "probed" by a dead horse under religious
>approval and assistance.
>Now ,you mention about 'him' brahmins.
>Is it that modernity has caught up with indian male brahimins
>and they want show the world that there is equality of sexes in
>the greatest democracy of the world, and in consequence thereof
>if they sustain a tear or rupture it is worth it?
>Mr advani is the elected leader.
>Thoku 123
========================================================================
> B A <lee...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:38AA172E...@netscape.net...
> > I too want to know whether if there is any shred of evidence
> > in Rama's mother having sex with a horse,though,it sounds bizzare
> > to me.
> >
> > Are there any institution or authority to proof or disproof this.
> >
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
pavan03
"Madurai Veeran" <mark...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It is an aryan religious ritual. It is called Ashwameda yagna.
horse? If so, show me the proof (by proof i don't mean the perverse
books that OH reads, I mean REAL Hindu scriptures, Vedas,Upanishads,etc)
This bs was most likely made up by some brahmin-haters to ruin the
whole reputation of brahmins, based on the discrimination they faced by
a select group of selfish brahmins. In any case, if the Aswamedha Yagna
really involves that sort of stuff, there should at least be a shred of
allusion to it in either Ramayana, or Mahabharata, which there isn't.
> You should consult the 'holy' brahminist scriptures called Vedas.
There you
> will find definitive explanation for the need for equine-human sex.
The Vedas were not something concocted by the brahmins(According to
Hindu belief they are apaurusheyatva, without beginning). If they were,
there would certainly be at least some remark about brahmins being
superior or stuff like that. Yet the Vedas only extol the glory of God,
not equine-human sex.
>Such customs are not true Indian (Hindu) customs. [ True Hindus
consider their
> women to be the symbol of life itself.] They were the inventions of
> demented humanoid species called brahmins, who under the influence of
> hallucinogens called soma rasa, an extract from some mushrooms,
experimented
> with such bizarre forms of sex in the name of religious ritual.
No those were the invention of a demented species of brahmin-haters
not unlike OH. Brahmins are supposed to give up everything in pursuit
of higher non-materialistic things, so it is absolutely preposterous to
assume that among all these practices that focus on being freed from
samsara, there would be a ritual that is carnal to the extreme.
>
> So if you come across an Indian, ask him if he is a brahmin. If he is,
> don't trust your horse with him.
Perhaps there were a few brahmins who instead of following the
brahmin duties (btw, one of them as mentioned is Upanishads is that one
should not discriminate against those of other castes, as pointed out
in the story of the man in the desert who simply desires water but when
brought ambrosia under the guise of water he foolishly refuses it
because a shudra brings it. The message is that if one discriminates
against people on the basis of caste, he cannot not obtain the Lord's
grace.), these select selfish brahmins were instead concerned with
materialistic pleasures. Such people ruined the reputation of the caste
as a whole. A true brahmin as idealized in the scriptures should not
discriminate among people of different castes and should not be swayed
by all the fleeting things in life, his mind should be fixed on God and
his life should be a simple one revolving around God. Only such a
person is to be respected, not every Joe Schmo who happens to be a
brahmin but instead leads an animalistic life. Your stereotype only
fits a portion of the brahmin population, unfortunately the one that is
portrayed by society; it's not true of all brahmins.
--
Regards,
pavan03
Madurai Veeran
Madurai Veeran
---------------------------
1. RAMA JANMA "BHOOMI!"
( The nativity of Ram )
The undisputed hero of the Champions of Hindutva in India is Ram, a
fictitious character in the Hindu epic ' The Ramayana ' written by Valmiki,
a murky marauder turning a poetic genius overnight.
According to the epic , Ram was the eldest son of king Dasaratha who had
60,000 wives appended to his first three senior queens Kosalya, Kaikayee and
Sumitra. The old and overworked king was so impotent that he could not beget
even a single child to be his heir. He became dejected in life and convened
a council of his ministers and saints to find a way out of this stalemate.
The council under the headship of the learned saint Vasishta examined the
issue very carefully and finally advised the king to perform an Ashwameda
Yaga (horse-sacrifice ceremony)
As a follow-up measure a team of the king's envoys was sent to bring one
Kalaikottu Muni, an ace ascentic in performing the ceremony, to the king's
court. The hermit was a bit proud of his professional expertise and was too
tough a guy to be easily brought. He was cajoled with all kinds of gifts and
graft and finally brought to the court.
Under Kalaikottu Muni's impeccable supervision, the yaga was performed.
Queen Kosalya, the eldest consort of king Dasaratha went round the
sanctified Ashwa (horse) thrice in all veneration and worship and cut it
into three with a mighty sword. She spent that night with the dead animal
with its genitals plugged into her viginal passage.
In the morning the king offered his three wives as gifts to the three
disciples of Kalaikottu Muni, namely Adhvaryu, Hota and Ugatna. The
disciples enjoyed the three queens the whole night and the next day returned
the transitory gifts to the king in exchange of substantial gifts of gold
and cows. The queens conceived instantly and gave birth to Ram, Lakshman,
Bharath and Satrugan.
(Note : For authenticity and details refer to the following:
1) Valmiki Ramayana chapter 14 (Translated by Pandit Ananthachari)
2) Pandit Manmatha Narathathar's English translation : " Kausalya with three
strokes blew the horse experiencing great glee Kausalya with an undisturbed
heart passed one night with that horse. The Hota, Adhwaryu and the Ugata
joined the king's wives".
pavan03 <pav...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88k5sd$dh8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
B A
I am shocked and disgusted reading what Madurai Veeran
wrote.
I have no way of verifying its contents.However,why have none
of the Brahmins or Hindus who are reqular contributors to this
newsgroup have disputed this fact/fiction?
Should I draw my own conclusion by their silence?
thok...@my-deja.com
>One favourite trick of these brahmini buggers is that they always
>deny what has been already discussed numerous times before.
>Perhaps they hope that by persisting with denials of facts
>which are irrefutable, some one may be trapped into believing them.
>In other words they are dishonest and resort to a favourite para
>from a propagandist hand book that is to exhaust the
>audience with persistent denials to the point where it appears truth.
>Veeran has done well to expose them threadbare.
>Thoku 123
======================================================================
Madurai Veeran
versions of our 'scriptures'. The truth is always presented in a masked
form. The mask changes depending on the situation.
Madurai Veeran
B A <lee...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:38AE672E...@netscape.net...
darkf...@my-deja.com
didn't think people will actually believe it. Now you are forcing me to
reply. This "Madurai Veeran" character is a Sri Lanka Tamillian Muslim.
So he has some knowledge on Hinduism, since during the civil war in Sri
Lanka, these characters came as refugees to India. Having now gone to
the west (again probably as a refugee), he reads web pages, and mixes
his assinine drug induced imaginations, to the actual Hindu texts.
Dasaratha who had 60,000 wives? The king offered his three wives as
gifts to the three disciples?
I know there are different newer versions of the Ramayana. Madurai
Veeran reads the Ramayana written by "Bobo the talking chimp & its child
Madurai Veeran"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <38AE672E...@netscape.net>,
lee...@netscape.net wrote:
>
>
> I am shocked and disgusted reading what Madurai Veeran
> wrote.
>
> I have no way of verifying its contents.However,why have none
> of the Brahmins or Hindus who are reqular contributors to this
> newsgroup have disputed this fact/fiction?
>
> Should I draw my own conclusion by their silence?
>
>
darkf...@my-deja.com
In article <U_zr4.2527$PA2.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Madurai Veeran" <mark...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> We all feel shocked and disgusted because we only get to hear the
sanitized
> versions of our 'scriptures'. The truth is always presented in a
masked
> form. The mask changes depending on the situation.
>
> Madurai Veeran
>
> B A <lee...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:38AE672E...@netscape.net...
> >
> >
> > I am shocked and disgusted reading what Madurai Veeran
> > wrote.
> >
> > I have no way of verifying its contents.However,why have none
> > of the Brahmins or Hindus who are reqular contributors to this
> > newsgroup have disputed this fact/fiction?
> >
> > Should I draw my own conclusion by their silence?
> >
>
>
Mark McHugh
I am just browsing this newsgroup and I am surprised at the level of
ignorance and sectarianism.
The horse sacrifice (asvamedha yagna) is a well know ancient Vedic
ritual sponsored by kings. The ritual does in fact culminate in the
queen laying beside the (dead) horse and it's "member" placed "between
the thighs" of the queen as a ritual coitus. The horse sacrifice ritual
is described in detail in Roberto Calasso's "Ka - Stories of the Mind
and Gods of India", the source for the culmination of the horse
sacrifice apparently from the Vajasaneyi Samhita.
There is nothing perverse about simple action. It is what is in people's
minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
What is truly perverse is for someone, from a shallow, mundane, ignorant
view point to extract episodes from the Ramayana or the Vedas (the
archetypal symbolism of which they have no chance knowing) and use them
for their pitiful sectarian squabbles.
Mark.
pavan03 wrote:
>
> You're implying that Ashwameda yagna involves having sex with a
> horse? If so, show me the proof (by proof i don't mean the perverse
> books that OH reads, I mean REAL Hindu scriptures, Vedas,Upanishads,etc)
> This bs was most likely made up by some brahmin-haters to ruin the
> whole reputation of brahmins, based on the discrimination they faced by
> a select group of selfish brahmins. In any case, if the Aswamedha Yagna
> really involves that sort of stuff, there should at least be a shred of
> allusion to it in either Ramayana, or Mahabharata, which there isn't.
>
> > You should consult the 'holy' brahminist scriptures called Vedas.
> There you
> > will find definitive explanation for the need for equine-human sex.
> The Vedas were not something concocted by the brahmins(According to
> Hindu belief they are apaurusheyatva, without beginning). If they were,
> there would certainly be at least some remark about brahmins being
> superior or stuff like that. Yet the Vedas only extol the glory of God,
> not equine-human sex.
>
> --
> Regards,
> pavan03
B A
minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
Mark,
It is reasonable that you should explain your above statement.
Have I understood you wrongly by your assertion that sleeping
with a dead horse is a simple act?
Nitin
> ritual sponsored by kings.
Mark, you have been taken for a ride. There is no yagna called asvamedha
yagna. When Calasso or anyone else describes something as Scriptural and
then in a massive book fails to mention what scripture that happens to
be!, then you should be a little critical before believing it's there.
There is no horse sacrifice or bestiality, neither symbolic nor actual, in
the Vedas. Again, you have been taken for a ride.
thok...@my-deja.com
>Hey
>On the contrary.
>It is you who is bending the interpretation of the episode to suit
>your conclusions.
>What has happened to your sense of human dignity and moral codes?
>Or were these expendable commodities in those days? and perhaps
>now, too?
>Thoku 123
========================================================================
In article <38AFD557...@ozemail.com.au>,
mch...@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am just browsing this newsgroup and I am surprised at the level of
> ignorance and sectarianism.
>
> The horse sacrifice (asvamedha yagna) is a well know ancient Vedic
> ritual sponsored by kings. The ritual does in fact culminate in the
> queen laying beside the (dead) horse and it's "member" placed "between
> the thighs" of the queen as a ritual coitus. The horse sacrifice
ritual
> is described in detail in Roberto Calasso's "Ka - Stories of the Mind
> and Gods of India", the source for the culmination of the horse
> sacrifice apparently from the Vajasaneyi Samhita.
>
> There is nothing perverse about simple action. It is what is in
people's
> minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
> the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
> horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
>
thok...@my-deja.com
>Now we have complete denial of the episode relating to horse.
>Two persons,Mark and Nitin, two different versions.One
>contradicting the other.
>Make up your mind guys.
>Thoku 123
========================================================================
=
In article <Pine.SOL.4.05.10002201108000.24524-
100...@rigel.oac.uci.edu>,
Nitin <nba...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
> > The horse sacrifice (asvamedha yagna) is a well know ancient Vedic
> > ritual sponsored by kings.
>
> Mark, you have been taken for a ride. There is no yagna called
asvamedha
> yagna. When Calasso or anyone else describes something as Scriptural
and
> then in a massive book fails to mention what scripture that happens to
> be!, then you should be a little critical before believing it's there.
> There is no horse sacrifice or bestiality, neither symbolic nor
actual, in
> the Vedas. Again, you have been taken for a ride.
>
>
Madurai Veeran
barbaric Vedic ritual.
Apparently it is described in Yajur Veda.
Madurai Veeran
TL: Ashwameda Yagna [Vedic Rites]
SO: Hinduism Today
DT: June 1994 Issue, Vol. 16, #6
Keywords: religions hindu periodicals /
--------------------------------------------------------------
Index: Ashwameda Yagna
Head: Wow! One Million Join Vedic Rites
Subhead: Gayatri Parivar's Goals Are as Prodigious as their
Pujas: Spiritual Empowerment, National Prosperity and
Environmental Protection
Text:
By Rajiv Malik, New Delhi
A million people thronged the small city of Chitrakoot in Madhya
Pradesh State for a grand modern-day ashwamedha yajna organized
by Gayatri Parivar. Held April 16th to 20th, it was the
sixteenth in a series of yajnas begun in 1991 in what has become
one of the most successful Hindu religious programs India has
seen. Reliable reports put attendance past the million mark for
their recent yajnas at Patna and Kurukshetra. In ancient days
the ashwamedha yagna, or horse sacrifice-described at length in
the Yajur Veda-was performed by the king for the welfare of the
nation. This modern version has a similar purpose, but a statue
is used in place of a real horse and, instead of being done by
hundreds (or thousands!) of brahmin priests, it is performed by
all devotees. Indeed, the Parivar's genius has been to generate
nearly total community involvement.
The earth and water to make bricks for the yajna's 1,008 fire
altars at Chitrakoot were collected from over 15,000 villages in
Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh, drawing participants from
Hindu temples, Christian churches, Muslim mosques and Sikh
gurudwaras. Dr. Pranav Pandya, son-in-law of Parivar founder
Sriram Sharma, explained the concept to Hinduism Today: "Our
workers went to each and every village of the neighboring areas.
The villagers became highly emotional about the ashwamedha
yajna, as their own earth and water are being used for this holy
event. There is no better way than this to involve people in
this noble cause. The response and participation of the people
of this area is total. We expect it will touch the one million
mark by the event's end."
The Parivar's program is by far the largest manifestation of a
worldwide Hindu trend-the popularization in simplified form of
the ancient Vedic fire rituals. The trend was started in the
19th century by Swami Dayananda Saraswati of the Arya Samaj, but
has picked up momentum in the last decade. Dozens of swamis and
organizations arrange yajnas every year, often with thousands of
participants. Homas are popular today in Russia, Europe,
America-indeed, everywhere where Hindus live and worship.
Chitrakoot is a holy place where Lord Rama spent eleven of his
fourteen years in exile. When I arrived, this otherwise sleepy
town with a population of about ten thousand was overflowing
with people. Thousands of Gayatri Parivar volunteers dressed in
lemon yellow could be seen efficiently and devotedly managing
affairs. Fourteen mini-cities were created to provide
accommodations. A dozen community kitchens were set up. Police
and paramilitary forces maintained law and order.
The often hectic activity centered around two main tented sites:
the yagashala with the 1,008 fire altars; and the sanskarshala
for weddings and initiations. Each of the five days well over
100,000 participated in the fire worship, while several thousand
had ceremonies at the sanskarshala.
Traditional Himalayan herbs were used along with truckloads of
wood in 1,008 altars of different shapes and sizes created for
the occasion. Chanting of mantras strictly followed Vedic
rules. Only those who were wearing traditional Indian
dress-dhoti kurta-were allowed to participate in the yajna.
Many had to buy these from the huge temporary marketplace.
Hundreds of stalls all along the paths and roads leading to
Ashwamedha Nagar (as the venue was named) sold items ranging
from dhoti kurtas to food and refreshments.
Dr. Pandya informed Hinduism Today that Gayatri Parivar plans
to have 108 ashwamedha yajnas all over the world by 2001ce. Out
of these, 24 will be held abroad (one is planned for Chicago in
July). He explains the yajnas as a spiritual experiment which
stimulates collective consciousness, scientifically propagates
Indian culture and spirituality, makes the whole ecosystem well
balanced and pollution-free, awakens inner spiritual force,
teaches the divine heritage of India, promotes vegetarianism,
makes society addiction-free, propagates the congeniality and
harmony between all religions and sects, promotes universal
peace and cultural harmony and makes religion more rational and
approachable for the youth. No one can accuse them of having
modest goals.
Three people are responsible for this successful program: Ma
Bhagwati Devi (Sriram Sharma's wife and spiritual leader of
Gayatri Parivar); Dr. Pranav Pandya and his wife Shail Pandya
("Shail Didi" for members of Gayatri Parivar). They spoke for
over two hours every evening to a captivated audience of over
100,000 at Chitrakoot. Dr. Pandya focused on the ideology of
the movement, while Mata Ji and Shail Didi dealt at great length
with issues that confront an ordinary woman of the village-a
concern which undoubtedly contributes greatly to the Parivar's
success. In between the speeches, devotional songs are sung by
highly trained singers. Overall, the event was conducted by the
highest professional standards.
Deep yajna (festival of lights) is another attraction. The
volunteers lit the 51,000 oil lamps lined up on rows of tables
and also on the floor, facing the dais, creating a celestial
sight [photo inset page one]. The popular kalash shobha yatra,
during which several thousand women dressed in yellow carried
yellow earthen pots of water in procession, was performed on the
first day of the yajna [photo page one].
At Chitrakoot, thousands could receive any of the sixteen
traditional Vedic rituals free of cost. The sacred thread
ceremony and marriage were most popular. Thousands received the
Gayatri mantra initiation at the thread ceremony, and over one
hundred couples of all castes tied the knot in a mass marriage.
Dr. Pandya met the Parivar founder through his father, a former
high court judge who was influenced tremendously by the
teachings of Sri Ram Sharma. "I came in touch with Gurudev in
the year 1963 at the tender age of 13," Dr. Pandya explained.
"A little after this, I became his disciple and took diksha.
Later on I got married to his daughter Shail. I had done my MD
and was also winner of a gold medal. I was all set to go to the
USA to practice medicine. However, it was at this stage that I
was persuaded by Gurudev to take an active part in the Gayatri
Parivar movement and drop the idea of going to the States." His
admirable success with the Parivar shows what is possible by
those who fight the "brain drain" and dedicate themselves to the
upliftment of India.
Says Dr. Pandya, "Gurudev believed in equality of all human
beings, irrespective of class, creed or sex. It was he who
began by freeing the worship of Goddess Gayatri (Deity of
knowledge) and the Gayatri mantra from the clutches of brahmins
and made it available to common people, including women.
Gurudev believed that nobody was born brahmin. It is one's
actions which determines whether he is a brahmin or not."
Mr. Shanti Bhai Patel, a law graduate and a full-time worker of
Gayatri Parivar says, "What we are aiming at is awakening of
masses. Every time one participates in a yajna, he has to drop
one bad habit and substitute it with one good habit. Our
Gurudev believed that if you want to bring revolution in this
world, change the thoughts of people. That is exactly what we
are attempting to do through these mega-cultural events."
According to Dr. Pandya, Gurudev transferred his powers to Ma
Bhagwati Devi back in 1971, and since then she has taken an
active part in the implementation of the various programs
initiated by Sri Ram Sharma. Says Dr. Pandya, "Under Mata Ji's
guidance the mission is taking rapid strides. If, on an
average, one million people attend each of the 74 yajnas that we
intend to organize by the year 2001, Gayatri Parivar will have
74 million more people around the world coming to its fold."
Address: Gayatri Tirth (Bramvarchas), Shantikunj, Sapta Sarovar,
Hardwar, 249 401, Uttar Pradesh, India.
Sidebar: Interview with Mata Ji
Text:
Despite her very busy schedule, Mataji granted a brief interview
to Hinduism Today at Shantikunj, Haridwar. When asked how
Gayatri Parivar was able to attract millions of people to
participate in Ashwamedha Yajnas, she had this to say, "All
Gayatri Parivar members are my sons and daughters. I give them
a lot of love and in turn I get their devotion. Gurudev's
disciples have lot of regard for me. And it is quite natural to
get this kind of regard from them because Gurudev and myself
were not just life partners, we were in fact two bodies and one
soul. He gave me all his powers, but I am not one of those who
will show them off by doing miracles. My aim is to get the work
done which was left unfinished by him. However, I can always
feel his presence, and his guidance is always available to me
through his spirit. The mission is able to make phenomenal
progress because of his help and guidance only."
Mataji added, "We are not affiliated with any political party.
In fact, we have nothing to do with politics. However, we
invite leaders of all political parties to come and participate
in our programs. But when they use our platform, I clearly tell
them that our platform should not be misused for political
purposes."
Mata Ji said that Gayatri Parivar was the only institution which
invites Muslims to come and participate in yajnas. "Whether it
is a Hindu, a Muslim, a Sikh or a Christian, to me they are all
my children," said Mataji, who believes all human beings should
be treated equally.
Sidebar: Personal Accounts
Text:
Dina Trevedi: "I have seen and experienced all the comforts and
luxuries that money can buy, but all that does not attract me.
I always wanted to do something for society, and the mission
gives me that opportunity. I became a full-time worker in 1987
at the age of 24."
Sangita Gupta: "Yajna and mantras enable you to led a life free
from mental diseases. Yajna develops compassion in one towards
other human beings and also uplifts one spiritually."
K.S. Tyagi: "The training being given to government servants at
Shantikunj will definitely show results in the long run. They
are being given lessons on morality and spirituality. These
people when they go back to their places of work will work
honestly and dedicatedly and will set an example by their
upright behavior which others around them will follow in due
course."
Jai Pakash Kaushik: "A big change in my life and the life of my
wife and children came after we became a part of Gayatri
Parivar. My son who used to get up at 8:00am every morning now
gets up at 4:00am and recites Gayatri mantra. Our entire family
participated in ashwamedha yajna at Kurukshetra and for all of
us it was a great spiritual experience."
Dr. K.S. Aggarwal: "Yajnas are contributing in a very big way
to the welfare of humanity. Participating in yajnas and
reciting Gayatri mantra, if done with devotion and sincerity,
can greatly improve the well being of a person."
Y.R. Deshmukh: "Gayatri Parivar has done a good job by
organizing this yajna at Chitrakoot. What has impressed me most
is the way the relationship between dharma and science is
explained to a common man. Also the dowry-less marriages are to
be appreciated."
Ramdas Soni: "Attending ashwamedha yajna has been a great
experience for me. I feel that my soul will now get liberated
after my death, because I have participated in such a big
spiritual event."
Durga Prasad Pandey and Savita Pandey: (One of over 100 couples
who went through the dowry-less marriage ceremony at the
sanskarshala at Chitrakoot.) Savita, a postgraduate in political
science, said, "Ostentatious marriages make society poor and
dishonest, and therefore Gurudev advocated dowry-less marriages.
I am very happy to marry the man of my choice in a ceremony
where my parents have had to spend nothing." Durga observed, "I
and my wife are well educated and belong to cultured families.
I am quite confident that our marriage will be a success as we
will adjust to each other very well."
Sidebar: How They Saved $645 Million
Text:
A few critics are unhappy with the huge expenditure involved in
organizing the Gayatri Parivar ashwamedha yajnas. Since
convincing them of the spiritual benefits of the events seemed
unlikely, Hinduism Today asked Gayatri Parivar's main organizer,
Dr. Pandya, how he responds. He has a ready and convincing
answer: "An ordinary marriage today in India costs over
US$6,450. For your information, as part of these yajnas we have
performed over 100,000 marriages so far, on which no money has
been spent. Please calculate the amount of money the nation has
saved on this one account only." We did: It's $645 million!
Dr. Pranav Pandya, son-in-law of GP founder Sri Ram Sharma,
renounced a lucrative medical career for a spiritual life
promoting the Gayatri Parivar.
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Nitin <nba...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.05.100022...@rigel.oac.uci.edu...
B A
Veeran cerainly had put his points very clearly and amaze me
with details whereas none of you have done otherwise.
Who do you think the benefit of doubt goes to?
B A
Mark McHugh
act. The value of action depends on motivation and intention.
For example, a person may donate money to charity hoping that it will
raise his self esteem, standing in the community or political prospects.
Another person may donate the same amount of money to the same charity
out of genuine compassion for the benefactors.
The simple act of giving money to the charity derives it's ethical,
soteriological etc. value totally from the motivation.
Can we speculate on the motivation of a Hindu queen sleeping with a dead
horse ? I suppose we can never be sure, but outwardly (according to the
reasons for the asva-medha), they did it to play their appointed part in
an ancient ritual believed to bring fertility and continuance to their society.
Some people seem to be suggesting something more obscene (and there is
room for speculation as the ritual involves the onlookers calling out
obscene remarks), but to extend from that the whole Hindu religion is
perverse or that Brahmins are perverse or that Islam is superior is
pretty stupid and more a reflection on what is in their minds than what
could be in the queen's.
I hope I have explained my view satisfactorily, that is, that
considering the importance of motivation and intention, the underlying
act is of relatively little importance.
regards,
Mark.
B A wrote:
>
> There is nothing perverse about simple action. It is what is in people's
>
> minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
> the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
> horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
>
Mark McHugh
1. May I quote the "Oxford Dictionary of World Religions" ISBN
0-19-213965-7 :
"Asvamedha. A Hindu, Vedic, ritual of horse sacrifice. I was performed
by kings as a symbolic representation of their supreme power and
authority, as well as, sometimes, for such boons as the birth of a son
to ensure succession. For one year the chosen horse might wander as he
pleased, unmolested and protected by an armed guard. Should he trespass
into another kingdom, it's ruler would have to give battle or submit. At
the end of the year the horse was brought back to the capital with due
ceremony, and sacrificed along with other animals. The fertility element
of the ceremony is evident from the way in which, symbolically, the
senior queen would lie beside the dead horse."
2. Calasso's book (although written in a unique style) does in fact
mention the scriptural source for most of his quotations. Most of his
material describing the horse sacrifice appears to come from Vajasaneyi
Samhita and Satapatha Brahmana.
3. The horse sacrifice is extensively described in the second Veda - The
Yajur Veda.
4. There are at least two direct reference to the horse sacrifice in the
Rig Veda i 162 and i 163.
5. The horse sacrifice occurs twice in the Ramayana (performed by
Dasaratha and Rama) and at least once in the Mahabharata (by
Yudishthira). (Not Vedic - I know).
regards,
Mark.
B A
recuperate from the fact that Rama was a product of
his mother's liasion with another man than his "father "and
all this was done with the approval of Rama's "father"
by a ceremony of his mother sleeping with a dead horse.
Here,you are saying all these are quite"normal"or simple in your
own words.
One of us are not in touch with reality.I know that nudist-camp,
wife-swapping or swinging and the likes of it are tolerated in the
Western world but are they normal or "simple"even in the most
permissive society of today?I have no idea which country or society
you are from but would they allow your first-lady a similar ceremony?
Bear with me,I am not against your personal view or opinion in this
matter but please consider it in the context of what is norm and what is
not.
There are a million and one questions running through my mind right now
and I wonder if Mr.Advani,the central minister of India knows about
this.
Anyway,it would be interesting to know what the Brahmins and Hindus have
to say about this ceremony being simple.
Shumbu
CLXI, CLXII) However I don't see any references to a queen laying beside the
dead horse. Where in Rig Veda, Yajur Veda etc. do we find a description of this
precise act?
Mark McHugh
my post was in response to Nitin's which asserted that there was no
reference to the horse sacrifice in the Vedas at all. As you have
pointed out, the references in the Yajur Veda proper is extensive.
On the question of the description of the precise act of the Queen
laying beside the dead horse, you state that there is no reference in
the Yajur Veda. Strictly speaking you are correct, but in a wider sense
"Yajur Veda" is often taken to include not only the (white) Yajur Veda
proper, but it's primary commentary, the Satapatha Brahmana including
it's Aranyaka, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.
The minute description of the asvamedha (as well as the other
sacrifices) is contained in the Satapatha Brahmana. I stated that the
Satapatha Brahmana is the primary source for Calasso's description.
regards,
Mark.
Shumbu
>Strictly speaking you are correct, but in a wider sense
>"Yajur Veda" is often taken to include not only the (white) Yajur Veda
>proper, but it's primary commentary, the Satapatha Brahmana including
>it's Aranyaka, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.
>
>The minute description of the asvamedha (as well as the other
>sacrifices) is contained in the Satapatha Brahmana.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the reply. Indeed the Vajasaneyi (white Yajur Veda) clearly
differentiates between the samhita and brahmana parts (unlike Black Yajur
Veda). The brahmana portion of Vajasaneyi is of course Satapatha Brahmana. The
problem is I still can't find a description of ashwamedha yagna (where a queen
lies beside a horse) anywhere within the Brahmana. I get the sense that Calasso
takes a little poetic license in interpreting certain verses. Which verses
those are however, I am not sure.
Mark McHugh
Basham. A. L "The Origins and Development of Classical Hinduism", Rider,
London, 1990 (ISBN 0-7126-3946-2) p.33 :
"A feature of the Asvamedha which has aroused considerable comment is
the sexual character of one of the concluding ceremonies. The chief
queen lay down beside the sacrificed horse and simulated copulation with
him, to the accompaniment of obscene remarks by the priests and nobles
standing by."
Bowker, John "Oxford Dictionary of World Religions", Oxford, Oxford,
1997 (ISBN 0-19-213965-7)
"Asvamedha. ... The fertility element of the ceremony is evident from
the way in which, symbolically, the senior queen would lie beside the
dead horse."
Arysio Nunes dos Santos. Essay "THE HORSE SACRIFICE" at
http://www.atlan.org/articles/sacrifice/index.html 1997.
"In the ashvamedha, the wife of the officiating priest — the mahishi —
simulated a ritual mating with the sacrificial horse."
regards,
Mark.
Shumbu
I appreciate you providing all this info, but what i'm looking for is a direct
scriptural account from the Vedas, the Puranas, Itihasas, Agamas - anywhere,
which talks about this act, even a fragment of a verse would suffice.
thanks,
shumbu
Nitin
claims to quote from!
---
MK Gandhi:
"The central fact of Hinduism is protection of gai. This
protection is one of the most wonderful phenomena in human evolution. It
takes the human being beyond his species. The gai to me means the entire
sub-human world. Man through the gai is enjoined to realize his identity
with all that lives. Why the gai was selected for apotheosis is obvious
to me. The gai was in India the best companion. She was the giver of
plenty. Not only did she give milk, but she also made agriculture
possible. The gai is a poem of pity. One reads pity in the gentle
animal. She is the mother to millions of Indian mankind. Protection of
the gai means protection of the whole dumb creation of God...
Hindus will be judged not by their tilaks, not by the correct chanting of
mantras, not by their pilgrimages, not by their most punctilious
observance of caste rules, but by their ability to protect the gai."
From _Hindu Dharma_ pp. 297-8. Ahmedabad, India, Navavijan Publishing
House, 1950.
Mark McHugh
You should look for example at the 1st verse of the 2nd Brahmana of the
5th adyaya of the 13th khanda of the Satapatha Brahmana of the Yajur Veda.
What exactly have we been discussing ? I take it that you don't actually
believe the episode involving the queen and the dead horse in question
exists in the Vedic literature at all and that all the scholars that
have referred to it and myself have just made it up ? If so, you should
read this verse (and what follows) and then apologise.
regards,
Mark.
Shelley Leslie
trying to get across and ask yourself if you are convincing anyone by calling names.
Shelley
Mark McHugh wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am just browsing this newsgroup and I am surprised at the level of
> ignorance and sectarianism.
>
> The horse sacrifice (asvamedha yagna) is a well know ancient Vedic
> ritual sponsored by kings. The ritual does in fact culminate in the
> queen laying beside the (dead) horse and it's "member" placed "between
> the thighs" of the queen as a ritual coitus. The horse sacrifice ritual
> is described in detail in Roberto Calasso's "Ka - Stories of the Mind
> and Gods of India", the source for the culmination of the horse
> sacrifice apparently from the Vajasaneyi Samhita.
>
> There is nothing perverse about simple action. It is what is in people's
> minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
> the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
> horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
>
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> ^ws.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!newshost.pcug.org.au!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail
> Xref: news.jps.net soc.culture.pakistan:14482 soc.culture.indian:23939 alt.religion.hindu:1725
>
> Hi,
>
> I am just browsing this newsgroup and I am surprised at the level of
> ignorance and sectarianism.
>
> The horse sacrifice (asvamedha yagna) is a well know ancient Vedic
> ritual sponsored by kings. The ritual does in fact culminate in the
> queen laying beside the (dead) horse and it's "member" placed "between
> the thighs" of the queen as a ritual coitus. The horse sacrifice ritual
> is described in detail in Roberto Calasso's "Ka - Stories of the Mind
> and Gods of India", the source for the culmination of the horse
> sacrifice apparently from the Vajasaneyi Samhita.
>
> There is nothing perverse about simple action. It is what is in people's
> minds that is perverse. The psychological significance of this part of
> the horse sacrifice ritual may be lost to us but the symbolism of the
> horse is not - though almost inexpressible.
>
Mark McHugh
I referred to the Satapatha Brahmana of the Yajur Veda which is not a
purana. Are you suggesting that the Sathapana Brahmana of the Yajur Veda
doesn't exist ?
I can see who the liar here is. I wonder what you are so afraid of. When
people try to attack Hinduism by referring to the human and horse
sacrifice rituals in the Vedic literature or in this case in particular,
the ritual coitus of the queen with the dead horse in the asvamedha
(Satapatha Brahmana 13.5.2.1), the answer from real Hindus should be a
big "So What !".
By showing such sensitivity to these attacks to the point of amazingly
stupid denials that they even exist in the Vedas, it not only
demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of the nature and evolution of
Hinduism, it simply encourages and validates the attacks.
Mark.
Mark McHugh
words like "ignorance" and "stupidity" are words that mean something.
When I use them, I mean them. I am not "calling them out" in order to
offend anybody.
"Ignorance" means not knowing something, especially something you would
be reasonably expected to know, or worse, saying that something is not
true when you have no idea if it is or not. The horse sacrifice
(asvamedha) is a very well known ancient Vedic ritual and is very
important to the evolution of Hinduism, (eg. during the year long
asvamedha and other lengthy Vedic sacrifices, Brahmins composed and
recited to the populace stories connected to the ancestry of the king -
the Mahabharata and Ramayana are believed to have been composed in this
context). This is a newsgroup about Hinduism, yet several people on this
newsgroup have not only not heard of the horse sacrifice, but have
flatly denied that it is even mentioned in the Vedic literature. This is
known as "ignorance".
"Stupidity" is not having the intelligence or energy to think about and
understand something. People on this newsgroup have cited an episode
from the asvamedha (where the queen simulates coitus with the dead horse
(Bsh 13.5.2.1)) in an attempt to denigrate Hinduism. Their method is to
imply that the motivation that most people would expect if the action of
the queen with the horse were performed today (something to do with
bestiality), was the motivation of the queen in ancient vedic times. It
is far more likely that the queen's motivation was firstly to fulfil her
part in the ritual, and then to ensure the fertility and continuance of
her society which the performance of the ritual by the king was believed
to ensure. To not try to think in this way is the root of
fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is more than just stupidity, it is world
destroying stupidity.
Finally, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.
regards,
Mark.
OM
Mark McHugh wrote:
words like "ignorance" and "stupidity" are words that mean something.
> When I use them, I mean them. I am not "calling them out" in order to
> offend anybody.
Dear Mark, as great RUSH LIMBAUGH says that words mean something and actions
have consequences, but in today's world things are said and done mostly with
PC in mind and when non PC truth is said it offends people.
BTW what was the reason or higher objectives the queen was trying to achieve when as you state
in the following ritual of hindu Queen mother having sex with the dead horse?
"the ritual coitus of the queen with the dead horse in the asvamedha
(Satapatha Brahmana 13.5.2.1),
Can you please give reference to the print material
related to this story,it seems facinating.
as to the name of the books volumn/version , author/translator etc and it availability,
It there a site on the net
where one can go to look it up?
Thanks in advance.
International Politics News Service
Here's your problem. Muller and Gough were known to be white supremacists
and christian fundamentalists. Try a translation from any scholar of
religions, of comparative religion, say, and not anyone from the eugenics
or kipling era.
Mark McHugh
Yes, i agree totally with what you say about political correctness.
Thankfully, the politics of blame and guilt is going out of fashion in
most places and we can return to the fresh air of truth.
Probably the most well known English translation of the Satapatha
Brahmana (and the one I have been looking at) is in the "Sacred Books of
the East" collection compiled by Max Muller. This is :
Eggeling, Julius, trans. "The Satapatha-Brahmana According to the Text
of the Madhyandina School." Sacred Books of the East, nos,
12,26,41,43,44. 1882-1900. Delhi:Motilal Banarsidass, 1990.
Volume 5 (no.44) contains the detailed description of the Asvamedha.
A some of the Satapatha Brahmana is published on the web as
transliterated Sanskrit on VedaVid (http://www.vedavid.org/port.html).
There has been a lot of discussion about the meaning of the episode with
the queen and the horse in the Asvamedha. The least complex answer is
that this part of the ritual is a very ancient fertility rite believed
to ensure the birth of a son to the queen though there are other
speculations. Certainly when King Dasaratha performs the Asvamedha in
the Ramayana it is so that one of his three queens (or all of them as it
turned out) would have a son.
Mark.
Mark McHugh
translated by Muller.
Secondly, here is a review of the biography of Max Muller http://www.indiaworld.co.in/subscribe/rec/stories/jan14-98revnirad.html
Thirdly, what translation of the are you recommending, and how do they
translate Bsh 13.5.2.1 ?
regards,
Mark.
International Politics News Service wrote:
>
> > the East" collection compiled by Max Muller. This is :
>
Mark McHugh
Shumbu wrote:
>
> >I take it that you don't actually
> >believe the episode involving the queen and the dead horse in question
> >exists in the Vedic literature at all and that all the scholars that
> >have referred to it and myself have just made it up ?
>
> Hey, if 3000 years ago out of 3000 rituals there was this one - no big deal,
> I'm not making any value judgements. But if 'scholars' are claiming it with so
> much certainty, then I would like to understand how much of the claim is solid
> proof and how much is broad speculation, that's all
It seems to me that you and others have not been trying to "understand
how much of the claim is solid proof and how much is broad speculation"
at all. The difference has been me on one side giving (second hand)
references to the episode in the Asvamedha where the queen has actual or
ritual sex with the dead horse versus several people ranging from saying
that there is no sacrifice of any kind in the Vedas (!), to you saying
that the horse/queen episode is a "claim", that is, you think it is a
misinterpretation of the original source (deliberate or otherwise).
I find this discussion really boring. You may be correct. Evil western
scholars have fabricated the episode of the queen and the horse to try
to denigrate Hinduism or because of their degenerate culture. The scale
of the conspiracy is massive. I have a moderately sized personal library
yet I have more than half a dozen books that explicitly refer to the
Asvamedha and the queen/horse episode, none of which reference each
other. Some of then I have quoted in the course if this discussion. It
has even been discussed on TV documentaries.
I don't know Sanskrit well enough to make my own translation, but what
difference would it make if I did ? I would just join the conspiracy in
your eyes. So I give up. But I will include one last reference, my last
contribution on this issue, for the benefit of those who don't know what
we have been discussing. Most of this seems to be directly from ShB
13.5.2 (Eggerling translation) as I remember it. It comes from the
second volume of Joseph Campbell's "Masks of God". I have included his
sources at the bottom.
From : Campbell, Joseph., "The Masks of God : Oriental Mythology", New
York, 1962 Penguin (Arkana) ISBN 0-14-019442-8 pp.195-196.
She lies down with the dead horse, and the Adhvaryu priest covers the
two with a cloth. He prays: "In heaven be ye covered, both. And may the
manfully potent stallion, seed bestower, bestow the seed within." The
queen is to grasp and draw forth the sexual organ of the stallion,
pressing it to her own.
"O Mother Mother Mother!" she cries out. "Nobody will take me! The poor
nag sleeps! Me, this wonderful little thing all dressed in the leaves
and bark of the kampila tree!"
The Priest: "I shall incite the procreator. Do thou, too, incite the procreator."
Whereat the queen says to the stallion: "Come, let the two of us
stretch out our limbs."
The priest prays to incite the god: "Come, lay thy seed well in the
channel of the one who has opened to thee her thighs. O, thou, potent of
manhood, set in motion the organ that is to woman the nourisher of life.
It darts into the sheath, their hidden lover, darkly buffeting, back and forth."
The queen: "O Mother Mother Mother! No one is taking me!"
The king adds an enigmatic metaphor: "Heave it high, like someone
leaning a load of reeds against a hill. It will then be at ease in the
midst, like someone winnowing in the fresh wind"
The priest turns to an attendant princess, pointing to her sex: "The
poor little hen there is splashing about, in a flurry. The yard runs
deep into the cleft; eagerly the sheath swallows."
And the princess says to the priest, pointing to his sex: "The poor
little cock there is splashing about, in a flurry, just like thy great
big talkative mouth. Priest, hold thy tongue."
Once again the queen: "O Mother Mother Mother! No one is taking me!"
The supervising Brahmin calls down to her: "thy father and thy mother
climbed to the top of the tree. 'Now,' called thy father, 'I am going to
come across,' and he worked the yard in the deep cleft, going back and forth."
The queen : "O Mother Mother Mother ! No one is taking me!"
The Hotri priest, turning to one of the other queens: "When that big
thing in that narrow cleft bumps against the little thing, the two large
lips stir like two little fish in a puddle in a cow path."
The addressed queen turns to the Adhvaryu priest: "If the gods grant
joy to that dripping, spotted bull, the woman's lifted knees will show
it as clearly as a truth before you eyes."
And the queen again: "O Mother Mother Mother! No one is taking me!"
The lord high steward, no to the fourth wife, the Shudra: "When the
noble antelope feeds on the barley seed, no one thinks of the village
cow that fed upon it before. When the Shudra's lover is an Aryan, she
forgets the prostitute's fee" (58)
58. The Sanskrit sources for this rite are Satapatha Brahmana 13.1-5;
Taittiriya Brahmana 3.8-9; and the Srautasutras of Katyayana 20.
Apastamba 20, Asvalayana 10.6 ff., Sankhyana 16. I have followed the
readings of Meyer. op cit., Part III, pp. 241-46. For a discussion of
the variant readings of the Satapatha text, cf. Julius Eggerling, The
Satapatha Brahmana, Sacred Books of the East, Vols. XII, XXVI, XLI,
XLIII, XLIV (Oxford : The Clarendon Press, 1882-1900), Vol. XLIV,
pp.321-322, note 3.
Citation referred to is :
J. J. Meyer, "Trilogie altindischer Machte und Feste der Vegetation"
(Zurich & Leipzig : Max Niehans Verlag, 1937).
(Aha - I see, the Nazi's are responsible !)