THE GOD CHALLENGE
BIll M
I posted a similer item several days ago and the message was deleted by some
religious wacko. He doesn't mind 'sinning'!
" Can anyone provide objective verifiable evidence that ANY REAL God
actually exists except in the imaginations of religionists???"
There are hundreds of different God beliefs and religions.
Why does not any real God smite all the fakes and confirm to his entire
flock that he is the real God and all the others are fakes???
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
> I can't help but notice that no one can accept the God challenge.
If "I can't meet your challenge" counts as accepting (and admitting that you
won ;) ) then you got at least one who accepted... the one posting this :)
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
John Locke
wrote:
>I can't help but notice that no one can accept the God challenge.
>
>I posted a similer item several days ago and the message was deleted by some
>religious wacko. He doesn't mind 'sinning'!
>
>" Can anyone provide objective verifiable evidence that ANY REAL God
>actually exists except in the imaginations of religionists???"
>
I don't know Bill, maybe you'd better try for Bigfoot evidence.
There's at least small chance these critters actually exist.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe
as it really is than to persist in delusion,
however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Antares 531
wrote:
>I can't help but notice that no one can accept the God challenge.
First, to answer your core question, no, it is not possible to
"empirically prove" the existence of God.
But, if it were possible to prove the existence of God, would you or
anyone else have anything approximating sovereign will? Or, would we
all be overwhelmed and left with no choice but to go along with the
program? Wouldn't this equate to us all being mere puppets with no
sovereign will? Is this what God wants?
Christopher A. Lee
<gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:53:02 -0000, "BIll M" <wm...@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I can't help but notice that no one can accept the God challenge.
>>
>>I posted a similer item several days ago and the message was deleted by some
>>religious wacko. He doesn't mind 'sinning'!
>>
>>" Can anyone provide objective verifiable evidence that ANY REAL God
>>actually exists except in the imaginations of religionists???"
>>
>>There are hundreds of different God beliefs and religions.
>>Why does not any real God smite all the fakes and confirm to his entire
>>flock that he is the real God and all the others are fakes???
>>
>First, to answer your core question, no, it is not possible to
>"empirically prove" the existence of God.
Apart from the fallacy of special pleading (which begs the question
of its existence in the first place, which you cop out of answering),
the conclusion is obvious to everybody except those who already
believe.
And the questions wouldn't even be asked if believers had the common
sense and courtesy to keep it within their religion.
But they have neither. So the question gets asked in the "put up or
shut up" sense. And the repeated cop outs and other dishonesty of the
non-answers tells us plenty both about them and the hypothetical
object of their belief.
>But, if it were possible to prove the existence of God, would you or
>anyone else have anything approximating sovereign will? Or, would we
>all be overwhelmed and left with no choice but to go along with the
>program? Wouldn't this equate to us all being mere puppets with no
>sovereign will? Is this what God wants?
Irrelevant, question-begging red herrings.
Jamffer
"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:hbtpu3pa0mkjs7oqa...@4ax.com...
Yes, if there was a God. It's called "Gods will". If a God willed us to
follow the rules He would let us know in no uncertain terms. Not speaking
only to ancient sand people.
Antares 531
How would you suggest God should have handled this? If we start with
the premise that God wants us to develop into mature sovereign
individuals who volitionally choose to conduct our selves in
compliance with His own will...not as puppets, but as sovereign beings
who do God's will because it is exactly and precisely our own will.
Could we ever achieve this state without going through a developmental
phase during which we are exposed to all the vagaries of sin and
rebellion?
Lucifer didn't have this background experience when he made his big
blunder. And, had God stopped Lucifer, it would have been only a
matter of time before the next created being headed into the same
quest for understanding. God would then have had to stop this second
being, then the third being....and so on until none remained as
sovereign beings.
Or, God could do as He has indicated to us that He chose to do...let
Lucifer run his agenda and explore the whole regimen of sin and
rebellion, with all of us partaking of this exploration.
The bottom line is that we are to learn enough about sin and rebellion
to insure that we will never, ever want to go back and explore it
further, once we have been granted immortality.
>
>>But, if it were possible to prove the existence of God, would you or
>>anyone else have anything approximating sovereign will? Or, would we
>>all be overwhelmed and left with no choice but to go along with the
>>program? Wouldn't this equate to us all being mere puppets with no
>>sovereign will? Is this what God wants?
>
>Irrelevant, question-begging red herrings.
>
Irrelevant, only to the extent that you chose to make it irrelevant.
But, you do have this sovereign choice. Had God slam dunked you into
"KNOWING" that He existed, would you have any ability to make such
sovereign choices?
Antares 531
wrote:
God has conveyed his instructions to us in a format that could be
understood by those ancient people and by us modern people with no one
having an advantage because of their education or general
understanding of the universe/multiverse. Everyone is/was treated
equally, and anyone who CHOSES to do so can glean all the information
they need from those ancient writings. Or, they can turn their back on
the whole idea and go their own volitional way. No one is being
intimidated into compliance.
Jamffer
Good luck with that belief, Antares 531. Have a nice forever.
Christopher A. Lee
<gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
What a remarkably stupid question that begs the same question you keep
copping out of answering.
Which AGAIN would not have been asked if you had the sense to keep it
inside your religion.
Christopher A. Lee
<jnor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I wish you were offering a monetary prize to the challenge, but here
>goes for free.
>
>Do you own a cat or know someone who does? Good.
>
>Does the cat rule the "owner's" life? Yes.
>
>The cat is a god. Period.
A liar as well as an idiot, whose redefinition of the word doesn't
even fool himself.
>JohnN
>
>alt.religion.gods NG removed from list because I'm too cheap to buy a
>real news service.
alt.religion.gods restored to make sure this idiot sees the response
to his dishonesty.
Antares 531
<ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:43:35 GMT, Antares 531
><gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
(snip)
>>>But they have neither. So the question gets asked in the "put up or
>>>shut up" sense. And the repeated cop outs and other dishonesty of the
>>>non-answers tells us plenty both about them and the hypothetical
>>>object of their belief.
>>>
>>How would you suggest God should have handled this?
>
>What a remarkably stupid question that begs the same question you keep
>copping out of answering.
>
>Which AGAIN would not have been asked if you had the sense to keep it
>inside your religion.
>
These are religion oriented newsgroups. If my posts and similar posts
of others annoys you so greatly, why do you read them?
Joe
> " Can anyone provide objective verifiable evidence that ANY REAL God
> actually exists except in the imaginations of religionists???"
The Evolution Challenge: Can someone provide objective, verifiable
evidence supporting evolution that's NOT based upon speculation in any
way, shape, or form?
I have yet to find someone who can.
bob young
Antares 531 wrote:
Correct.
Man makes up his gods and then manipulates them to his heart's content
Mike Painter
Then you have never looked or have denied what was presented to you.
Start with the T.O website.
Pastor Frank
news:KxOGj.26741$vr3....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
time, and you ignored it every time. Are you in some kind of time loop,
Bill? See below Jesus explaining His God well enough ....again!!!
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
The word "God" is not a proper name but a title of a position of
whatever is your standard of virtue and ideal of perfection against
which you measure all behaviour. (Jesus in Matthew. 5:48)
I.e. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Satan is: "...the god (theos)
of this world", i.e. reality. And again in Philippians 3:19, Paul says
there are people: "...whose God (theos) is their belly", i.e. gratification,
pleasure. Also, Jesus speaks of mammon being a god or devil,
representing the greed for possessions, money and power. (Mt:6:24:)
Jesus tells us in Jn:4:24 that His "GOD IS A SPIRIT", (i.e. akin to a
quality of attitude, like love and care which imbues a person), and "they
that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Jesus explains
further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth, and
the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye
should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and
yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE
FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not
that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto
you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH
THE WORKS."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom
of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that LOVETH not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the LOVE that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in LOVE dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one
another; as I have LOVED you, that ye also LOVE one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have LOVE one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye LOVE one another,
as I have LOVED you. Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Acts:17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
Proverbs 10:22 God is nearer than our own soul, closer than our most
secret thoughts.
Heb:1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Pastor Frank
insult, beliefs to trash and god(s) to malign. That's the way he gets his
jollies, and that's why he is trolling Christian NGs.
bob young
Antares 531 wrote:
Indeed they are. Religionists fear becoming insignificant because religions
thrive on arrogance and the need to control people. Nothing new in humans.
Islamists want the entire world to become the followers of Islam, it is their
avowed objective and they will kill to achieve it.
The intimidation has always been there. It even stretched to burning people
alive during the three hundred years of The Inquisition, because they had the
courage to stand up to primitive superstitions.
No god has ever conveyed anything, all we hear and read are the work of homo
sapien.
bob
Humanist Brit.
You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of
magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the
price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent
enough.
[Aldous Leonard Huxley]
Antares 531
He should be back on the job, today. The Atheists' National Holiday
was yesterday.
Antares 531
wrote:
As I've posted before, on other threads, I have a computer that thinks
there is no Internet. The truth of the matter is that this computer
simply does not have an Internet connection, and therefore can not
discern the Internet at all.
Pastor Frank
> there is no Internet. The truth of the matter is that this computer
> simply does not have an Internet connection, and therefore can not
> discern the Internet at all.
>
understanding of the word "god" amounts to that invisible ogre in the sky
that's out to get him for being a bad boy. All his logic is predicated upon
this god definition and his constant denials of such an ogre existing only
bespeaks his abiding terror.
bob young
Antares 531 wrote:
To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height
of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own
eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended
that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
[Sophy Burnham]
Antares 531
wrote:
>
>
>Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> On 31 Mar 2008 06:46:02 -0500, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com>
>> wrote:
(snip)
>> >
>> >You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of
>> >magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the
>> >price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent
>> >enough.
>> >[Aldous Leonard Huxley]
>> >
>> As I've posted before, on other threads, I have a computer that thinks
>> there is no Internet. The truth of the matter is that this computer
>> simply does not have an Internet connection, and therefore can not
>> discern the Internet at all. Antares 531
>
>To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height
>of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own
>eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended
>that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
>[Sophy Burnham]
>
The first step is to do an open-minded, unbiased, sincere search for a
"subliminal connection" to God. If a person refuses to do this, there
is no way for that person to ever KNOW that God does or does not
exist. Antares 531
Pastor Frank
Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in Jesus
Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We therefore
know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
(Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
bob young
Antares 531 wrote:
sounds like a case of self inflicted brainwashing !
Antares 531
wrote:
If that's truly your perception then that's probably the way it
is...for you.
Antares 531
wrote:
>"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
This seems quite true, but I was hoping some would indulge in a bit of
open discussion and perhaps re-examine their mindset.
The bottom line is, there are no conflicts between science and the
Bible. The imagined conflicts are the result of incomplete
understanding, and that can be on either side of the line. Many
scientists don't have even a vague understanding of the Bible and many
clergy have little or no understanding of science.
It simply would not have been workable for God to have given us the
scriptures in a modern scientific vernacular. Those ancient people
would not have been able to understand the information at all had it
been given as a physics seminar presentation. They would have turned
away from it all and we would not have any recorded information to
use, today.
But, we do have the ability to read and translate those ancient
writings into our current language format, and fit the information
into our vastly expanding understanding of the natural laws of the
multiverse.
Pastor Frank
the NT Bible says so. There is no connection between science and religion,
as little as there is between the flesh and the Spirit. That's why Jesus
said in Jn:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit.
Note it's not half and half`etc. but either or. For one is created and
the other uncreated. So "natural laws" have no bearing upon religion. For
religion deals with QUALITY and nothing but QUALITY, all else being mere
vehicles to illustrate QUALITY, for our God is the supreme quality of
perfection and who lives in the praises of His people. Perfection is not
subject to natural law.
Antares 531
wrote:
>"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
>
(snip)
You are talking about an entirely different thing, here. I agree flesh
is flesh and spirit is spirit, but they both are the undeniable
results of God's laws of the universe/multiverse, and God's laws of
the universe/multiverse are also the basis of our science and
cosmology understanding.
God created the heavens and the earth using the same natural laws that
we study in modern science. But God didn't talk 21 century
physics/cosmology vernacular to those to whom he gave the scriptural
information. He talked to them in the vernacular that they and their
people understood.
>
> Note it's not half and half`etc. but either or. For one is created and
>the other uncreated. So "natural laws" have no bearing upon religion. For
>religion deals with QUALITY and nothing but QUALITY, all else being mere
>vehicles to illustrate QUALITY, for our God is the supreme quality of
>perfection and who lives in the praises of His people. Perfection is not
>subject to natural law.
>
This set of ideas and the attitude associated with these ideas
presents a very serious problem, today. This is the reason so many of
our young people are turning their backs on the Bible.
God DID NOT create all the natural laws of the universe/multiverse,
then skip around them to do his works by means that didn't involve the
use of the natural laws He had created.
bob young
Antares 531 wrote:
IDIOT. No god gave anyone a scriture. WHAT FOR
.........a god that created everything would hardly need one right
It is frightened timid man who wrote his early tomes later, after 16oo they
became Man's very own bible