Yaldabaoth + YHVH (VERY LONG POST)

[Krag]

Nuvoadam wrote in message <93508a0.03021...@posting.google.com>...
>Sophia was one of the three goddesses in the Pleromic Heaven who
>shared a particular prophetic connection, the others being a sister
>and the Queen-Mother. She had a vision wherein the All-Father was
>calling out for her to find him; the Queen privately encouraged her to
>do so. After many dreams, Sophia finally hit upon the way to find the
>missing King-- she would enter into an act of creation like the
>stories claim that he had. The All-Fathers act of creation was little
>understood by the Pleroma for it had unfolded in a time and space
>untold aeons before their collective memories took root.
>
>It's not as if some of the Pleroma thought that he never existed.
>They felt that he was fully united with the Queen! And this was the
>reason for the Great Seth's admonition that Sophia had been "in
>error", for the Pleroma felt that she had somehow forgotten that the
>Queen was both ALL-FATHER and ALL-MOTHER, like Shiva/Shakti and
>YHVH/Shekina among other examples. The perfect being was not asexual
>or androgynous (non-sexed), but hermaphroditic (dual-sexed).

Nuh uh. The perfect being is neither something or nothing. Negate all images
in the mind and then negate the negation and you will understand 'It",
although it's not even correct to call 'it' it. We neither know its
beginning or its end. "some call it Tao. I call it Great"..Lao Tzu

>
>But what the Pleroma had not been informed of was that Sophia,
>representing a part of the Queen's own mind, was seeking the time and
>space in which the mother and father of All had not be united. There
>was only one place in which the missing King could be located---
>backwards in time.
>
>So our Sophia, not fully understanding how this would all work out,
>created in a dream-like state an Astral Form. Usually our Astral Form
>looks exactly like what we wish it to-- ourselves for instance (when
>you create a face IN PLACE OF a face, etc), but we can make it into
>whatever form we wish. In this case, the form took on the form of
>something buried deep within Sophia's own memory. The appearance of
>this form was so wholly alien to whatever she had been expecting that
>her child scared her at first.
>
>Fearing her son and knowing that the Pleroma would be outraged by her
>act, she hid it away "in a cloud".
>
>Now. Since G. Seth speaks of the Pleromic children as BEING
>UNIVERSES,

Yes, this is true. We are universes. We contain everything.

>
>Time passed and she did no such thing. Another mission was enacted
>with another plan-- the Pleromic God-Squad would force the return by
>descending to the point in Yaldaboath's Universal body where the lower
>pieces of Sophia were at their greatest strength. In all the
>Yaldabaothic Universe, this place was to be found in a mid-sized
>galaxy on a tiny planet called Earth.
>
>Here the Pleromic rescue mission descended to enlighten the humans in
>hopes that they might harness their awesome potential and help
>liberate Sophia by THEMSELVES killing Yaldabaoth-- the offered
>enticement being that the humans Astral Forms would be allowed to be
>present in the re-unification of Sophia's entire self and thereafter
>ascend to the higher realms. "Blessed is one who envisions self as
>the fourth one in Heaven!" (Secret B. of James 7:14 as per Meyer's
>numbering).
>
>And so here we are.
>
>Do you think that Sophia would be happy if you accomplish this goal of
>her former groom? Most definitely NOT. She is standing true to her
>prophecy that the All-Father will somehow manifest out of this mess,
>rise up to take her by the hand and ascend to the Pleromic Assembly
>not to redeem her, but to vindicate and praise her for her faith and
>sacrifice.
>
>How then are we to see Yaldaboath? To start, as a work in progress.
>Despite his immense size at birth, he is still growing up emotionally,
>spiritually and bodily. Despite that a small spark within us is
>Sophia, the rest of us is Yaldabaoth.

Krag: Our bodies and minds belong to the Devil. But the Devil's entire
universe depends on the monads/light-sparks trapped in matter. Otherwise, it
would be absolute darkness and nothingness. The conscious monad is needed to
illuminate this cosmos. Which is why our Lord God the Devil must use all his
cunning and intelligence to keep us ignorant of our true nature. The
paradoxical thing is that God is absolute darkness, He is the "Black light"
the "dazzling darkness". Unreflected Light is absolute darkness. White and
black are God the Father and God the Mother. But there is something beyond
even this. We call it Tao, but it can't be named. It didn't begin or not
begin. It is the great Mystery.

We should no more attempt to
>contend with or kill him than pluck out our eyes to spite our face!
>Instead, why not try to understand Sophia's prophecy and help her
>bring it to fruition?
>
>How are we to do this? By taking another look at Yaldabaoth. To
>start, let's dispense with this cumbersome name. Yalda baoth (son of
>Yalda) can also be called Chaldees (the god of the Chaldeans aka YHVH
>hint hint) or, more eloquently, as JULIUS (son of Julia). The month
>of July being the midpoint of the winter YULE festival also spelled
>Yalde by the Nords.
>
>The hell you say? Yule? Christ-mass? Hmmmm. A MASS of CHRISTS. Is
>this not desciptive of Shiva? The many united into ONE.

Have a look in the book of Revelation. "On His head were MANY crowns". And
yet he is One. Only kings are given crowns. And Christ the Lord says that He
will give a crown of victory to those who overcome. So what does this mean?
That we are God. There is only One Being who is experiencing this whole
fantastic charade that 'we' call life.

This is a
>cross-cultural word indeed. To the Hebrews it means something like
>'the totality of the ALL'. When a Jew died their family mourned by
>'sitting Sheva', a process wherein the All mourns the loss of One.
>
>Since YHVH among its many forms is also Yah or JAH, then we might try
>pronouncing the original word as JahVah, or SHIVA: a deity worshipped
>by the proto-Hibiru before some tribes were gathered into Israel,
>others were scattered to India, while some stayed on as an
>increasingly smaller group of Parsii Magi being pushed out of their
>home lands by their Arab cousins (in Iraq + Iran).
>
>The Hindu's explains that their many deities were originally united
>together in 33 (Masonic symbol alert), and before this in 3. These
>three original deities were Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva. When Vishnu and
>Brahma met, they contended as to whom was the elder god, i.e., who
>created who. Paradoxically, Brahma claimed to be the creator of
>Vishnu and Vishnu claimed to have created Brahma.
>
>The umbilical-like connection between them thereafter appeared as an
>immense shining pillar of fire. They decided that since this pillar
>was omnipresent in both of their timeframes, they would settle the
>dispute by flying up (Brahma) and down (Vishnu) until they discovered
>it's origins. In one version they tired of the eternal search and
>returned to the starting place; in another they kept going until they
>ran into each other again at the starting place-- the pillar was both
>immensely long and yet circular as well! A huge LOOP of TIME in
>otherwords, for Brahma and Vishnu eminated from different points in
>TIME. "Blessed is one who stands at the beginning: that one will know
>the end and will not taste death." (G. of Thomas saying 18)
>
>At this return to each other, Shiva stepped forth from the pillar
>exclaiming "Good. I see you've finally met each other. Now we can get
>down to the business of creating the Cosmos." They were told that the
>pillar they had been searching was the Phallus of Shiva. So in
>otherwords, Shiva's true body was so immense that all the other deity
>and all of creation was contained WITHIN HIS CELESTIAL FORM. Herein
>is a clue for they who seek understanding.
>
>The Brahmans teach that Brahma's celestial form contained the Universe
>within it, and that, in creating Vishnu he had seperated himself into
>many many smaller forms. So it is seperation of the first man

into
>many forms which creates Vishnu, who exists within every single person
>(lift a rock and I am there). Conversely, when enough of these
>seperate disparate entities lucidly re-unite into one form, they
>create Brahma-- who like Manu is seen as carrying the entire Universe
>within his body but ONLY during times of catastrophy wherein the
>Universe is periodically destroyed and then re-born. So Brahma is
>like an ARK of sorts. This motif is important to understand the
>nature of Yaldabaoth and YHVH.
>
>When Brahma and Vishnu travel through TIME to find each other, it is
>only here that they may meet Shiva-- in who's LARGER celestial form
>they both exist. When the Universe is destroyed and a single man
>floats in the void, the man and void are contained within the mind of
>Shiva. The man is Brahma. When the time for creation is come again,
>Brahma explodes in a burst of mandelic light (Big Bang-like) and many
>smaller Vishnu's are created. The cycle goes on and on; it is called
>the breathe of Shiva/Brahma/Vishnu. "Where there are three deities,
>they are divine, where there are two or one, I AM present." (G. of
>Thomas saying 30).
>
>So what does this have to do with Yaldabaoth? He is Shiva/YHVH. The
>Jews call him ADAM KADMON. At the core of the Jewish legends
>concerning the return of their Messiah they expected 'Adam the LONG
>HEAD' to eminate for them. This *Long Head is the part of the long
>pillar of light motif. Recall that once, when Jesus went off to
>meditate by himself, his head was witnessed as 'stretching up to
>heaven'. The Long Head had indeed returned, but only after the Great
>Seth had descended to unify with Adonai--- two Jesus' in one.
>
>Adam Kadmon (the God-Man) was seen as a single man who had so unified
>with the true God-Mind of the All that he BECAME the unifying focal
>point of the All! In otherwords, here is a single man who represents
>the lowest emination of Yaldabaoth within himself. This single man
>was living on a planet in a galaxy to which was drawn the Pleromic
>God-Squad in search of the greatest concentration of Sophia's broken
>form within the celestial body of Yaldabaoth.
>
>This man had formerly been a deity who had time and again been cast
>out of power within the several dimensions comprising part of the form
>of Yaldabaoth. He was not totally ignorant of his former divine
>nature, intuiting that, while he was fully human, he was also more
>than this. He did not belong here and he knew it. Always always
>always he searched and searched and searched for a way to return from
>his exile, but time and again he was cast out of heaven by
>circumstances of Cosmic Politic. Humanity saw him as the principle
>being behind the multiple personages comprising the Devil motif. Bad
>bad bad! Evil evil evil! In most of the Earths dualistic religions
>we are taught to fight and defeat him. But some few religions had a
>more open mind towards such things.
>
>Here is this man. A single man. A MAN. Hmmmm, what did Jesus call
>his father? A MAN.

Yes. God is Adam, the infinite Man. Cosm showed this in his post about the
gematria of the book of Revelation. The 144, 000 saved ones are ONE MAN --
Adam or ADM whose gematria is 1440, identical except for the 3 zeros which
being circles indicate 3 cycles of change necessary for the finite to become
the infinite. The completion of the Great Work and the restoration of Adam
prior to the fall.

Elipas Levi ;- "Man is the finite god. God is the infinite Man".

Jesus Christ: "As long as there are still some who say they are not mine, I
am not who I am".

Jesus often said that he could only do what he
>did because his father had shown him, had taught him how to do these
>things. Jesus taught that anyone of his disciples could exceed his
>own mastery of these teachings. He said that he himself had
>difficulty ascending high up to the place where the Father could be
>found. He said of his father that he existed in "all the HEAVENS"
>(Revelations), meaning that somehow the Amun could exist in a
>multi-dimensional state of being.

There are no spatial dimensions. This is an illusion. Everything is both
infinitely large or infinitely small depending on its relation. And since
God is infinite, nothing is as it APPEARS.

He also sadly said that all the
>disciples could experience was due to the sacrifice of his father, who
>in order to maintain the Cosmos had had to somehow cast himself into
>"infinite solitude".

>
>Does Adonai fully understand the Amen? No! Does the Great Seth fully
>understand the Amen? Most definitely NOT! However, together they
>share details of the original father which may help serve the quest
>for understanding. The man did not become the lowest
>Sophic/Yaldabaothic emination of the father simply by being incarnated
>within a human body. It was only after he was exiled from his own
>Heaven that he became the Father, by seeking liberation from his body.
> When he emerged to the world in his Astral form he became the first
>vestige of the Father. "When you see one who was not born of a woman,
>bow down and worship. That is your Father." (G. of Thomas saying 15).
>
>And this is just the beginning, for the man reborn as astral God...
>aka the GODMAN/Kadmon must now concentrate upon uniting all the
>Universe with himself. It is a process some call the Divine Plan, or
>the Great Work, and it will be accomplished when enough humans
>liberate themselves from the bondage of flesh to help with the
>*harvest or gathering together of the MASS of CHRISTS. To reiterate,
>initially the growing God-man is not united with the All. "I shall
>choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and these
>will stand as a SINGLE ONE." (G. of Thomas saying 23)

yes, but the Great Work is never completed. Gnosis is interminable
>
>In order to liberate our Astral Forms we must not KILL the ego, but
>tame it, make a contract with it as the Egyptians say (Ka + Ba). When
>the lower bit of Brahma aka Manu aka the MANAS (animal mind) within us
>finally cooperates with the bit of Sophia also contained, then we are
>on our way. "If two make peace with each other in a single house,
>they will say to the mountain 'MOVE!' and it will move." (G. of
>Thomas saying 48). "One who is whole will be filled with light, but
>one who is fragmented will be filled with darkness." (G. of Thomas
>saying 61). "Do not think of them as human beings, but consider them
>as animals. For as animals devour each other, so also people like
>this devour each other." (Book of Thomas 5:6 Meyer).
>
>So if both Adonai and Seth have a less than full understanding of the
>All-Father, how are we to see him? He is hidden deep within our own
>minds, behind a dark moon occulting a hidden sun. Does not Amen mean
>"hidden sun" in Egyptian? "Images are visible to people, but the
>light within is hidden in the Father's image of light. He will reveal
>himself, but his image is hidden by his light."

The sufis knew this, which is why they call God the "black light"

(G. of Thomas saying
>81). This light is very far above the confines of this Universe.
>"You do not see the light of the sun, which judges the Universe and
>looks down upon the Universe, will encircle everything and make slaves
>of its enemies." (Book of Thomas 6:20 Meyer). But here we have the
>image of polarity exemplified!!!! This absolutely CANNOT be the
>highest state of being, so there is a *sun even higher than this one
>which Seth describes to us! Neither of the two Jesus' know the extent
>of the All-Father, only he may understand himself.
>
>There is no wrong or right at this level, only "light within light"
>and "mind within mind". And a code of ethics enforced by one single
>man who once raised his mind up to such a place to concieve of such a
>thing. At the highest level being ethical is not concerned with
>judgement, punishment or seperation. It is concerned with
>re-unification and MERCY. When you are ONE, all of time is an
>illusion which the constituant parts of ONE willingly enter into when
>they tire of Omniscience, Rest and Stillness. So by casting ourselves
>off from the sanctuary of ONE we already know that we are entering
>into ignorance and therefore suffering caused by the fires of TIME
>itself, but we also know that, due to the *conception of total MERCY,
>we will periodically be given the chance to return to ONE without
>punishment. This is the Divine Plan and the Great Work in progress--
>the conception of a... single... man among all the countless gazillion
>races thriving within the celestial body of Yaldabaoth. Considering
>how many times he has been exiled from his family and home, how
>ostracized and demonized he is within our collective religious
>mindset, it is no wonder that he could concieve of such a thing.
>
>At the highest level there is no judgement, and no time. Time and
>Space are creations of willful ignorance made for the sole purpose of
>entertaining ourselves. "It is not one among many things that are in
>existance: it is much greater. Rather, as it is in itself, it is not a
>part of the WORLDS ***OR OF TIME***, for whatever is part of a world
>was once produced by something else. TIME was not allotted to it,
>since it recieves nothing from anyone. That would be a loan. The one
>who exists first does not need anything from one who is later. On the
>contrary, the later one looks up to the first one in its light."
>(Secret B. of John 2:14-16).
>
>How do we reconcile the Amen as being found **in time and space within
>the celestial body and as the lowest manifestation of Yaldabaoth with
>the assertation of G. Seth that the true father had never been created
>and never existed as seperate from the All? Once again, Seth did not
>fully understand the All-Father. Just as with Guatama Buddha (who
>rose up to this same place), Seth constantly struggles to find the
>terminology to describe the Father. He sets him up with descriptives
>(he is this, he is that aka Eti Eti) only to knock the discription
>down through negatioin (not this, not that aka Neti Neti).

One must negate the negation also. Not his and Not not this. Which is
absolute affirmation. This is why I regard Buddhism as superior to the yogic
conception
>
>Just as with Buddha, when we feel we have suffered enough we will seek
>release from the cycle of reincarnation. "Blessed is one who has
>suffered: that one has found life." (G. of Thomas saying 58 Meyer).
>Seth spoke of the Yaldabaoths seperation of his celestial body into
>distinct dimensions, and the Monads (Angelic copies of the higher
>Pleroma) Sophia sent down to unify Yaldabaoths body as being "bound
>within dimensions, times and seasons, and Fate is lord of all."
>(Secret B. of John 15:10)
>
>Seth describes the creation of the hermaphrodite Adam/Eve as the
>descent of Sophia to the lower manifestation of Yaldabaoth in an
>attempt to reach him, to teach him about his origins. The Eve united
>with Adam was Sophia herself-- called SHIVA. Here is Yaldabaoth
>bragging about his creation and how he was the only and highest God
>his Angels could ever find, and then Sophia enters in to temporarilly
>fill Adam with Holy Spirit and make him into a greater Godman than
>even Yaldabaoth "the psychical mind" (as Seth puts it). When Adam
>once again descends from the heights Yaldabaoth attempts to obtain his
>power by slicing and dicing him up on the operating table. This is
>the second Rape of Sophia, and more accurately put than the first
>example.
>
>"It did not happen, however, the way Moses said: 'Adam's rib.'"
>(Secret B. of John 12:4),,, so how were they seperated? Keep *in mind
>that Eve/Shiva was INSIDE OF ADAM'S MIND. This was the EYE of GOD, so
>to speak, and it is inside of the mind's of each and every one of you.
> When you seek, you shall find, and there will be as Bob Marley put
>it: "I and EYE" seeing each other. When these two are 'made as one',
>you are on The Way.

That is what I wrote about Sophia making herself transparent as a perfect
relector of the Light of Christ. This is the Great Work. It leads to
transfiguration

As for Adam, when Eve was removed from his side,
>we should rather see that Shiva/YHVH was removed from his SIGHT. I
>could not see Eye through the darkness of his own ego. This was the
>fall of Adam, for the sin of *eating the apple Even offered-- the
>Apple OF HIS EYE so to speak.
>
>So how are we to see Adam now? As languishing in a hellish prison?
>No. Adam + his family were incarnated deity-- the Angels/Elohim of
>Yaldabaoth. In this case Yaldabaoth was Marduk aka Ra, who was the
>ruler of Niburu (renamed Marduk) and thus the ruler of the one and
>only Universal Empire governed by Immortality drugs, technology,
>beings of immense Magi powers, and a system of Star/Time gates... the
>controls of which were once places upon this planet for safekeeping
>from the Universal beings intent upon arrogating rule of the Universe
>to themselves.
>
>This is all just Universal politics within the celestial body of
>Yaldabaoth. When Marduk placed the Tablet of Destiny upon his chest,
>he inherited the immense power over Fate/Karma itself formerly called
>the Anu power after his grandfather. Each being who wields this
>power, even Anzu, is forever part of the higher God-mind of this
>Universe and therefor a lucid part of the lower manifestations of the
>Great Dragon (as Hermes described Yaldabaoth).
>
>Adam was a Ka of his creator united with an animal soul. He and the
>race of Adamas were named for Atum-Ra. So he was something less and
>also much MORE than his creator. His children Cain (Dionysus aka
>Jesus), Abel (Apollo), Seth (Baal/Set-hen/Thor/Adad etc.) were among
>the many deities who had descended to Earth for the purpose of
>harnassing the awesome potential they had found within humanity to
>themselves. Recall that in the Mayan Bible (the Popal Vuh), the first
>humans created sat up on the operating table and immediately sent
>their minds out into the Universe to understand everything--
>surpassing their creators in power and intelligence so fast that they
>were quickly killed so that their power could be studied, dilluted and
>hopefully harnessed.
>
>So the Universal Empire had reached Earth and was never to leave it
>again. Adam eventually died but would return in many incarnations to
>be a non-enlightened hero of humanity. Among the Jews there were many
>guarded legends which were never committed to writing. These surface
>from time to time and Judaic students scratch their heads as to the
>origins.
>
>Paul the Herodian aka Annas the High Priest of the Sanhedrin referred
>to one such legend surrounding the return of Adam the Kadmon. Here
>Adam would be called the NEW ADAM, and Paul felt that Jesus manifested
>this legend when he died on the cross over the skull of Adam which had
>been buried by Shem deep within Golgatha (skull mountain). But Paul
>was wrong. Jesus was not the returned Adam who was one of his closest
>disciples, just trying to remember who the heck he was. The return of
>the fully enlightened Adam to his children was not yet to happen at
>that time, but is now upon us.
>
>We don't have to wait for him to save us, for we can only save
>ourselves. If you are a gnostic who fears or hates Yaldabaoth, then
>you fear and hate yourself and are bound for what the Kabbalists call
>the Pillar of Judgement. Here you'll get what you wish--- your
>enemies will be cast down into the flames of suffering. But look
>about you if you will. Those who made it by on a technicality are
>miserable for they shared in their brothers guilt. Those who see
>themselves as being wholly righteous are bores and no one wants to be
>around them. Those who wish to be treated as little children are fun
>at first, but how psychologically damaging is it to with to remain as
>a child for eternity? Very! What is left? There is only seperation
>and misery. You share in all the sin of the entire world,,,, how will
>you then congratulate yourself upon your righteousness? Only when you
>realize that Polarization is not the wholeness of ONE will you then
>SEEK ONE.
>
>There is a tile artwork in Ravanah where Jesus, sitting upon the blue
>orb representing the rulership of the Universe, is surrounded by four
>figures. Two are Heavenly Angels. The other two are Asclepius (Moses
>aka Enoch) who is at this point un-enlightened (no nimbus at all).
>The other is Vitellius Maximus who bears a dark nimbus representing
>partial enlightenment. Jesus is handing the crown, and thus the
>kingship of the Universe to Vitellius so that he may JUDGE THE HELL
>OUT OF YOU!!! Vitellius was John-Mark, also known to us as the
>reincarnated but unenlightened Adam. Neither Vitellius nor Asclepius
>look very happy in this prophetic work of art.
>
>What kind of Gnostic do you choose to be? A judgemental one who seeks
>contention and seperation from Yaldabaoth? If so then you seek
>seperation from self for ONE is not possible in a state of polarity.
>This and That (seperation of ONE) are Maya (illusion), so you are
>choosing to still live within a state of illusion.
>
>What else is there to choose? You may choose to find the Pillar of
>Mildness-- a ***TIME*** where the Gods and Angels walk and live among
>humanity in perfect openness. All things are revealed in this place,
>in this time. We can see Heaven, it can see us. If we look very
>hard, we can even see the Highest of the High from this place. This
>is the Pillar of Mercy, where every single corner of the Cosmos is
>illuminated by the singular body of Adam the Kadmon. This is when
>Shiva uses his Pillar of Mercifal Fire to show THE WAY to source... to
>ONE.
>
>When you know The Way, you can enter into this place in your mind to
>escape the confines of Yaldabaoths Universal/Celestial body. Rise up
>as Hermes did to converse with him, he will be very proud of you. But
>don't just fall back into the body after this-- try going ever upwards
>to explore the larger Cosmos.
>
>Above the Universe you will find the Multiverse--- and here the
>Pleroma. Above the Multiverse find the Microverse, then the
>Macroverse, then the METAVERSE. Study the concept of Adam Kadmon to
>understand the nested man within man which lucidly unite to form the
>largest Kadmon. At the Macroversal level, find the Great Seth, who at
>this point in Time has already been re-united with his bride. Here is
>where the Devil rules the Cosmos with gentility and grace. Kiss him
>on your way by and bow deeply to the turner of the Dharma Wheel, for
>you are going to see Metatron-- the ruler of the larger Cosmos called
>the Metaverse.
>
>EACH of the rulers are YHVH. Even Yaldabaoth. They are many minds
>united in one, with Yaldabaoth *nearly being the lowest point of the
>Cosmos. We have followed the journey of a single man upon whose back
>the entire Cosmos rested (think about this long and hard if you
>please), to the higher mind of Metatron. Do not become confused by
>the two Metatrons, for when Enoch rose up through the Heavens (like
>Jesus + Isaiah and many others), he understood the Kadmon and was
>given the honorary title of 'little Metatron'. Here is the CUBE of
>SPACE called the Kabbah. Or rather it is two cubes in one-- the two
>dice Umim and Thumin inteposed. Or rather it is many geometric forms
>nested within each other. When you evolve from seeing the teseracted
>sub-cosmos of Metatron's DIAMOND to seeing the entire form of the
>TIME-STAR, you are now ready to still time. You are at the still
>point of the storm, hovering over the still small point of an infinite
>diamond. Above you is blue space, from which you hear a distinct
>sound--- OMMMMMMMM, or perhaps HUUUUUUUU. The entire journy you have
>completed being represented by a silver cord through time itself
>(Isiah: Let the silver cord remain unbroken), you are now seeing the
>Pillar of Fire, the OMMMM-PHALLUS of Shiva/YHVH.
>
>You sit there in blissful contemplation until the realization that you
>are still This, and the diamond is still That. This is seperation and
>not true ONE! At this precise moment in time, time stops. As quick
>as the blink of an EYE, the entire Cosmos folds up into itself and
>there is nothing. But wait-- floating in the dark void is a single
>man-- the last man and the first man. Here is Brahma, here is the end
>and here is the beginning all in one. You are the witness who has
>been called to understand the breathe of God.
>
>Jesus once claimed that the Cosmos without duality and polarization
>was like a "stagnant pool of water". So do you, the witness of ONE,
>choose to go back to a *degree of seperation just for the fun of it?
>Or do you choose to find a place of rest? The rest of Brahma/Vishnu
>in infinite darkness is one thing. The rest of Seth's Pleroma as
>"light within light" is another. But there is yet another place for
>your enjoyment. Find the Apsura's. Find the party! Enjoy the gnosis
>that ALL is ONE and ONE is ALL without fully being either thing, and
>find those others who have wished to mutually create this place.
>
>Here is where the party is, disco lights and everything. Beings come
>and beings go, but the party is more than eternal for an eterinity is
>an aon which has a beginning and an end. It is more than infinite for
>it is contained within itself and can see the event horizon of
>infinity as it breathes in and out. Why ask why? It exists for your
>enjoyment. For ONE to commune with ONE, and ALL to commune with ALL.
>
>I'm sure you can find this place if you try. There is no King or
>Queen to sit on the throne; it is abandoned. But as you dance the day
>and night away, every now and then remember that above you, in the
>"infinite solitude" floats one single man who is dreaming all of this
>up. He is among you in one form, below you in many others, and yet,
>he has thrown himself into the void of ? so that you might exist.
>Call it an act of infinite mercy, and every now and again weep for the
>lost All-Father. He is the final representation of Fatherly
>Understanding. He seeks unification with his bride, the final
>culmination of Motherly Un-conditional Love. Here in the Highest of
>the High, simply because he saw fit to impose his mercy upon the many
>Cosmocrators, you may rest for as little or as long as you wish. But
>you can't reach this place by carrying the baggage of judgement or
>dissent. Only by Mercy, Understanding, Love, Gentility, Grace,
>Forthought, Afterthought and other such qualities of ethical being.
>
>
>So all hail Yaldabaoth-- the abandoned child who seeks return to
>source. Have faith that you will find these places if not on your own
>accord, at least on the day of Infinite Mercy. At this time the
>entire Cosmos will praise a man, a single man for his
>"long-suffering".

See Paracelsus: "I do not praise myself. All of nature praises me".
Cosm thinks that Paracelsus has completed the Great Work

They will praise our glorious human race for
>birthing the man and the "SON OF MAN", who labored so long to show
>others THE WAY. You will be there, as you are now, praising the three
>aspects of Amun "HOLY HOLY HOLY" and "TRULY TRULY TRULY". Here is
>when the ALL will find relief. Here is no Why (Yes). No what, no
>where, no how, no this, no that, no concept. It is total Omniscience,
>Love and Understanding. You will weep bitter-sweet tears of love for
>Adam, and join in with the great Assembly of the All in praise. Then
>all Kingship will end, and the full life of light within light begin!
>
>"ALL HAIL the MAN-- the CHOSEN Vessel of INFINITE MERCY!"
>
>"Without anger, jealousy, envy, desire or any greed." -- Seth (Secret
>Book of John 14:4)

Krag: thanks for the best post I've read in a long time

[Kater Moggin]

Nuvo...@AOL.com (Nuvoadam):

> How then are we to see Yaldaboath?

The sources depict him as an abortion -- unlike your image
of a babe-in-arms. The Apocryphon of John refers to
Yaldabaoth as "the aborted fetus" (13:33, in the Berlin
manuscript), the Hypostasis of the Archons says that he's "like
an aborted fetus" (94:15), and Hippolytus, RH 6.26, on the
Valentinians' notion of the demiurge, describes Sophia "weeping
and bewailing on account of the abortion" she created, then
adds that Nous and Aletheia produced Christ in order to destroy
him.

-- Moggin

to e-mail, remove the thorn

[Nuvoadam]

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message news:<moggin-C63C7E....@netnews.attbi.com>...

Yes of course, they would now wouldn't they? =~)

But he lived, and he lives still. So he was NOT an "abortion" was he?

YOU are Yaldabaoth. Or rather, you are a tiny cell deep within his
body. The thought of his own body warring with itself is amusing.
Those who wish to destroy him are a CANCER. And the cancer is their
THOUGHT which they have inherited from these others from outside the
Universe.

So they see it as ugly. So what. They hate and fear what is
different. No Gnostic has ever been persecuted for being different,
have they? Nope! We are all beautiful people and the world luuuvs
us. Right? Or mabe not. I'll tell you what the Pleroma fears more
than anything--- that Sophia was right and that somehow, this Universe
will grow up to become the All-Father.

All this fear and hate. We were taught to hate Yaldabaoth. He hated
us in return. Are any of us ever going to ascend to beyond this place
by harnessing hatred and fear? Or are we somehow to harness LOVE?
Not just of *some things, but of ALL things.

Sophia knows what she's doing. She's playing it coy. She wept those
bitter tears because it was all so hard. They just THOUGHT it was
regret. She had no idea that it would be this hard. And if it's hard
for her, then just imagine what it's like for Yaldabaoth.

IMAGINE!

You are born and your mother quickly hides you away from sight.
You sense her fear and her loathing.
You are left alone, so very painfully alone in a nursury room full of
milk.
You see others coming and sense their mal-intent. THEY HATE YOU!
What is your crime? Being born?
Imagine the absolute fear and trembling of the babe.
These others ENTER INTO YOUR BODY--- a sure definition of RAPE!
You are violated! They have entered into you with the desire to KILL
YOU.
Imagine the anger, the rage, the loneliness of the abandoned babe.
Poor poor Yaldabaoth. Our poor Universe!

Let it all go. Let go of that krap they filled your head with, it was
all just a test. Who do you think the Great Seth is anyways? He is
our earthly Seth from the far distant FUTURE. Only he doesn't
understand that by entering into Yaldabaoth he has gone backwards in
TIME. Oh, he thinks he is off the hook because Sophia's monads aka
copies of the "members of the eternal realm which would come down" (S.
B. of John 13:16) were illusions. But EVERYTHING is illusion! Even
our Great Seth!

Jesus Adonai called Satan as Baal in the B. of Mathew. Said he was
always "stupid". And we can see that, despite his ascension to the
higher realms, Seth is still not the sharpest tack on the bulletin
board. It's all a HALL OF MIRRORS, this thing called dimensional
space-time. Even the Pleromic realm.

Seth didn't realize that by coming back here he had created a nifty
little paradox loop in time. A nice little Mobius Loop. A kewl
little Gordion Knot. Ever see what a Mobius Loop looks like if you
keep looping it over and over and over? It creates in its center a
hollow space which is a PERFECT CUBE.

The most powerful and awesome concept you could ever wrap your mind
around is TIME. This is the challenge to all gnostics in order for
them to truly ascend. All of the Ascended Masters I've encountered
report that they busy themselves with exploring dimensions. Why not?
Take your time climbing the Jacob's Ladder in your mind. That's all
you ever had was time. When they are really ready to become *Masters,
they'll find that this Universe is a tiny little place compared to the
larger swimming pool of C.

Once the ONE God-mind had a thought and Moggin was born. He (assuming
your a he Mog) ventured off in quest of what was new, to explore his
nature so as to see if he could evolve. His journy took 9 eternities
and 3 infinities, and finally, like a salmon swimming up the River of
Life he returned to source. "I'm tired! How long was I gone?" The
ONE answers--- "You never left. You just blinked your eyes."
Approaching ONE and lifting the veil, the face of Moggin pears back at
Moggin. Eye and I will get ya by.

If all things are ONE, then Yaldabaoth is ONE and you should no more
contend with him than with yourself. What if Jacob woke up to see
that he was only wrestling with himself all along? But if that
wrestling is what it took for the realization to dawn like a sun in
his mind, then I'm fine with that.

Whatever gets ya through the night, is allright.

I love you K.M.

[Nuvoadam]

Good ole Lao Tzu. Very secretive that one. Ask a Zen Buddhist what
the name means and you'll probably get the perfunctory 'old man' or
even 'old teacher'. Really? Hmmm. In the gnostic tradition I always
prefer sleuthing out my own etymology.

Lao = (The/this divine)
Tzu = (Way)

The Way.

Once Confuscious (western meaning Son of Confusion) visited Lao Tzu.
Sat with him for hours explaining his gathered poetic philosophy and
massive code of ethics. Finally Lao Tzu interjected: "That is all
well and good my friend, BUT DO YOU KNOW THE WAY?" Ever after
Confuscious sought it.

Krag: "Yes, this is true. We are universes. We contain everything."

Congratulations on being the first person I have ever encountered to
say this Krag. Mithra's dark cave was IN HIS OWN MIND. This is the
true Abyss we are lost within. In breaking through the EGG
represented by the zodiac he was breaking through the confines of this
Universe through the Gate of Gnosis. He *understood* that the rainbow
eyes lining the dark tunnel through the Abyss in his mind were stars,
Galaxies, Universes, Multiverses, etc. THIS IS THE WAY.

Krag: "Our bodies and minds belong to the Devil. But the Devil's
entire universe depends on the monads/light-sparks trapped in matter.
Otherwise, it would be absolute darkness and nothingness. The
conscious monad is needed to illuminate this cosmos. Which is why our
Lord God the Devil must use all his cunning and intelligence to keep
us ignorant of our true nature. The paradoxical thing is that God is
absolute darkness, He is the "Black light" the "dazzling darkness".
Unreflected Light is absolute darkness. White and black are God the
Father and God the Mother. But there is something beyond even this. We
call it Tao, but it can't be named. It didn't begin or not begin. It
is the great Mystery."

Methinks he is getting close. Stop giving ownership of your body, and
especially your mind to any one other person. You are placing chains
upon yourself in this way! Besides, the DEVA-EL aint so bad! Nice
guy when ya get to Gno him. I challenge you to do so.

Once there was a guy named Krag living in a city. It was the last
city on a train line with only one more stop beyond it. Krag had been
to the last stop-- it was ONE. He couldn't sense much there but light
and mind. However, he could hear his own thoughts (he thinks
therefore HE IS) as well as the thoughts and presence of everyone who
ever existed anywhere. Nice place. A little
B O R I N G though, which is why Krag took the train back to Apsura
City. Here is where the party was! Here he often entertained himself
by getting in line to experience one of the many amusement rides.
These took him into one of the many states of being which had been
mutually created by the ALL for their own pleasure. Once he found a
ride which seemed like a sheer drop into a great void. It was the
greatest ride of ALL. Rather than taking the train down the line of
existance, this ride was a fast plunge to the bottom of the ladder.
The ride master called himself the Devil, and warned Krag that this
ride was special. "You will be a spark of light trapped within
Matter. You will struggle for return to this place, and in so doing
will experience all feelings with a vividness you forgot was possible.
This includes the whole gamut of feelings from horrible suffering to
immense joy. And I will be the one hurting you. But eventually you
will return. The whole ride will seem to take many eternities, but
you will only have been gone for a short time." Krag asked the
Devil-- "Why will you make me suffer?" To which the ride master
replied:
"One cannot make a perfect diamond out of a lump of coal without
tremendous heat and great pressure. SOMEONE has to do this to you,
and I was volunteered by the All. I'm not sure why. Something to do
with my being the most gentle, loving and caring of ALL. C ya when ya
get back. Enjoy your ride." And just like that, **BOOM** Krag was
born.

Krag: "The paradoxical thing is that God is absolute darkness, He is

the "Black light" the "dazzling darkness". Unreflected Light is
absolute darkness. White and black are God the Father and God the
Mother. But there is something beyond even this. We call it Tao, but
it can't be named. It didn't begin or not begin. It is the great
Mystery."

You are God, as you well gno. I gno you gno, and you gno that I gno
that you gno. The darkness is within your own mind. What do you see
when you close your eyes? The Universe within you? Or the Abyss?
When you search out the dark star and try to pierce it like Mithra
pierced the Cosmic Egg in which he was nurtured, the only WAY to do
this is by finding the crack in the egg. It's a little speck of pure
white light somewhere deep within your mind. It is the white dove in
the endless forest. You are the cunning snake, you are the unicorn
which seeks it out. It dances, it teases, it flies away singing
"catch me if you can!" and you must chase. Every now and then when
you tire of the chase and turn back, it will come near of its own
accord. It turns into an electric blue lady shimmering with sparks of
white light. She approaches and gently gives you a KISS on the
forehead. She gives you a loving CARRESS and whispers in your mind
"you WILL catch me one day. and on that day a new sun/son will rise.
know that you are loved." And then she is gone. This is Sophia, your
bride, and the wedding chamber is deep within your mind. The KISS and
the CARRESS are of the greatest importance. When YOU are so
CARRESSED, it is the **true** EU-CHARIST. This is the beginning of
your becoming a CHRIST. No one else can be your Christ, only you.
The dawning of understanding is like the blossoming of a flower within
your mind. It is the BUDDHI-ng flower and you are the BUDDHI if you
can internalize it so as to see it whenever you close your eyes.

It is not so mysterious after all. Does it never begin or end? Only
the Amun knows. Perhaps experience of ALL and ONE is not unlike a
computer hardrive-- it can be wiped clean or overwritten. What if it
can be overwritten by someone who ascends to the proper heights to do
so? (re: Lucipher/Hallel you asshole. You thought you could place
your throne above mine? What's that you say? You already DID and I
can't see it? Just for that you will be punished you big bad Devil.
Now GET OUT OF HEAVEN you trouble maker!) And if a hardrive is
overwritten rather than wiped, the processor-mind is merely told
(ahem) not to recognize what information is still on there.

Interesting word RE-COGNIZE. It really means to REMEMBER WHAT YOU
ALREADY KNEW.

Interesting word RE-MEMBER. It means to RECALL THAT YOU ARE A MEMBER
OF SOMETHING LARGER.

Interesting word RECALL. It means to CALL AGAIN. And again. And
again. Kind of like loops of time eh? You will be called back from
this ride when the time is right Krag. Or you could really kick some
astral ass and climb back up the ladder. Remember that it's all just
a game. That's all it is my friend. "For they endure everything and
bear everything so as to FINISH THE CONTEST and (re) obtain
everlasting life." (Secret Book of John 14:6) But you can't make it
back by yourself if you are carrying the baggage. Hate, Fear,
Ignorance.. all of that krap. It's a trick to get you to fall back
into the Abyss. As Buddha said "Let go" of it.

"Why are anxious to banish yourselves, and live far from your city?
Why vacate your dwelling, and prepare it for those who want to live in
it? You exiles and runaways!" (Secret B. of James 7:4) Even though
he's talking about allowing our bodies to be possessed by Archons,
this is a good analogy for the spiritual city of God-- the New
Jerusalem if you will. This is a city with one Sun shining over it for
eternity. Around it is nothing else. Whoo Whooooo (train whistle),
last stop before ONE! All aboard who's going aboard!

Krag: "Have a look in the book of Revelation. "On His head were MANY

crowns". And yet he is One. Only kings are given crowns. And Christ
the Lord says that He will give a crown of victory to those who
overcome. So what does this mean? That we are God. There is only One
Being who is experiencing this whole fantastic charade that 'we' call
life."

Which version of Revelation? I like the one where John is told that
the chaos surrounding Armageddon is "ALL IN YOUR MIND" by the one on
the throne. Did the elders figure it out? That John was the
initiate, and one of the elders AND the one on the throne behind the
hidden mask? The crown is there in your mind waiting for you to claim
it. "I'm a dweller on the threshold. And I'm waiting at the door.
And I'm standing in the darkness. I don't want to wait no more."
(Van Morrison -- Dweller on the Threshold). First you see the Abyss.
Then you let go of your assumptions, you take the FALL, you take the
LEAP OF FAITH out into the blackness. You fly this way and that,
twisting in the wind. Then you see it--- the Dark Star. It's hard to
get close to it, the tunnel effect keeps trying to sweep you
backwards. You crawl towards it, climbing climbing climbing. Soon
around the circumference of this Dark Star you see a halo of light--
the Star is the Hermetic Moon in your dark night of death. It is
occulting a hidden sun. This Sun is part of the Amen. The Halo is
your crown. EARN IT. FIND IT. "Out on the highway, in the byway,
all alone. I'm still searching for, searching for my home. Up in the
morning, up in the morning out on the road. And my head is aching,
and my hands are cold. And I'm LOOKING FOR THE SILVER LINING. Silver
lining IN THE CLOUDS. And I'm searching for, searching for the
PHILOSOPHER STONE. And it's a hard road, a hard road daddy-oh. Even
my best friends, they don't know. That my job is turning LEAD INTO
GOLD." (Van Morrison -- Philosopher Stone).

RE-CIEVE your crown. RE-SHIVA. RE-YHVH. Come back, but only when
your ready. It's all a matter of perspective. All things being ONE,
you never really left did you? The Devil goading you is an asshole,
but he's an asshole for love. Come to think of it, Shiva is also
called Thiva isn't he? Forget transliteration, the rules of etymology
allow us to interpose D for TH. Diva Diva Diva, what is the song you
sing? Diva-el, you bad old Devil, where are you goading us?

Krag: "Yes. God is Adam, the infinite Man. Cosm showed this in his

post about the gematria of the book of Revelation. The 144, 000 saved
ones are ONE MAN -- Adam or ADM whose gematria is 1440, identical
except for the 3 zeros which being circles indicate 3 cycles of change
necessary for the finite to become the infinite. The completion of the
Great Work and the restoration of Adam prior to the fall. Elipas Levi
;- "Man is the finite god. God is the infinite Man"."

Cosm said this, said that... I love Cosm. I love you. I love you
best when you are saying what YOU think, and not what others think.
Now... ONE MAN. Let's C.

Blue Nun.
Universe
Multiverse
Microverse
Macroverse
Metaverse
ONE
Blue Nun.
Repeat.

So one and seven are the same, kinda like how low C and high C are the
same note which unifies the rest of the scale-like LADDER eh? What
did that dude say? Beyond the diamond we hear a sound? Ommm? Huuuu?
High C? See the sea of C, take the plunge! ONE MAN. Hmmmm. The
Kabbalists don't pay enough attention to that microverse. It's
Metatron this and Adam Kadmon that-- but what if all the action was
happening from this very small place? The microverse is a diamond in
your mind. It is the peak of a RAINBOW MOUNTAIN of love. What is
that mountain called? Some call it Mount MERU (love mountain). The
Egyptians had a symbol of a pyramidian stretched up into a mountain.
They called it MER. One of their words for LOVE. Often surrounded by
a rainbow bridge. Asgard (garden of Ash/Fire/Love/Light), where is
thy rainbow bridge? Ever see what a drop of oil looks like on wet
pavement? Spreads out into a roughly circular rainbow. Ever consider
this as a metaphor? Why DO they smear oil over a certain place on
your head when you partake of the symbolical Eucharist anyhoo? =~) I
love you Krag.

Krag: "Jesus Christ: "As long as there are still some who say they are

not mine, I am not who I am"."

He did say that didn't he? Also said that he had 'earned his crown'
by leaving the clues which would help us to ourselves 'become Christs'
. "I gained my crown when I saved you." (Secret B. of James 5:3).
He also said that he would RULE until his enemies were 'below his
feet'. Such polarization! Adonai and Seth were works in progress, as
are we all. This is what I liked about the both of them-- they never
claimed to be so much better than us. "Do your best to be saved
without any urging. Rather, spur yourselves on, and reach the goal
BEFORE ME if you can." (Secret B. of James 4:8) But then, here Jesus
is telling us several things. First, he is sitting on the throne of
the Universe after his ascension. The Day of Judgement already
happened, as it usually does when these saviours descend. Peter +
Paul argued against and for this concept frequently,,, it was inbred
in the minds of the early Church that the return of Jesus (rapture)
happened very close to his crucifixion. Did he not say that "this
generation shall not pass away before these things happen"? The end of
every zodiac age has a Day of Judgement, but that's another tale.
Lastly, Jesus is telling us that there will be a time when he abandons
the throne. No one will sit on it, for we will be ONE, and not be in
need of kingship.

What did humanity praise God for in Revelations? "You have made us
into (High) Priests and (High) Kings." We won't NEED to be shepherded
like baby sheep at this *point in time. He can't be his true self
until we say we are his. He cannot be who he IS. And who is he? He
is his fathers son. As he said in various places "I and the Father
are ONE." AND "I AM THE AMEN". AND "When you see me you see the
Father." How are we to reconcile the distinct personalities of Jesus,
Seth, the Father, you and me? As the Mayan's said "I am another
yourself".

Krag: "There are no spatial dimensions. This is an illusion.

Everything is both infinitely large or infinitely small depending on
its relation. And since God is infinite, nothing is as it APPEARS."

Krag, if you think about it, every single perception we could ever
have is illusion. Seth was "in error" (as he painted Sophia) because
he somehow saw the Pleromic realms and the "original humanity" as
being substantive parts of his own historic past, and us as being
copycat illusions. But everything is illusion right? So,,, if the
only kind of exploration possible is within degrees of seperation from
ONE, then every single place in any kind of space-time continuum is
just an illusive "spatial dimension" that really doesn't exist, right?
But if you bashed your head on that keyboard it would probably hurt,
am I right? So polarizatioin and illusion is something we willfully
buy into just for kicks and grins. Suffering, well, that goes with
the territory along with joy and all other sensate emotions. I say
just go with it!

The Lords of Time really don't know where they came from or where they
are going. Don't hurt yourself trying to understand what you have
termed the "Great Mystery"... just accept that every single place is
just a room in a hall of mirrors (I go to prepare a place for you in
my fathers house, it has many rooms) and JUST.... BE!!!! In
summation: there ARE spatial dimensions because YOU ARE. If you were
NOT, then there wouldn't BE any dimension. Go with it! The hallmark
of sentience is the ability to dream. We are out here on the edge of
time, living in the fires of time on the edge of the Dharma Wheel. We
expand infinities horizon when we dream of new possibility, when we
cook up schemes and concepts which, to us, are NEW. Interesting word
NEW. It also is NUT, NUN, NON, NO, as if we are the thoughts of God
venturing off into the Blue Nun to explore what is NEW. Like a fish
out of water we are piercing the surface of the ocean of C and flying
into the Blue Sky of Nut (No-Thing) when we appear here like this, in
this *spatial dimension. We fish flop around hating this, fearing
that, loving the other, eating illusive ice-cream, having great
(hopefully) illusive sex with our fellow illusions. C'mon now, it
aint so bad you Gnostics! I would be willing to bet that after you
return to source and get some rest you will want to come back here to
this illusive *spatial dimension At some (ahem) *point in time.

Krag: "yes, but the Great Work is never completed. Gnosis is
interminable"

Well Krag *old friend, Time is a wonderful thing. It can take a
lifetime to wrap your mind around even its simplist implications. For
instance-- a man could write a book illuminating others. This book
might survive in one form or another for 7 thousand years, and really
help a whole lot of people become Christs. They might rise up to the
Heights of Heaven only to find that the man never made it himself.
Writing books is tedious work, took all his *time if you gno what I
mean. Kinda fell on his sword for their sakes, if you understand. So
they partake of a mission: 'Let's go back and find this person who
helped liberate us! Let's find the Great Teacher!' Some of them
mumble: 'We don't understand how the Cosmos could worship a rock.'....
but they do. They worship this man as the guy who informed them of
the Great Work. They communally and cooperatively became ONE
planetary mind, then ONE Galactic mind, then ONE Universal mind and so
on and so forth until the whole Cosmos was nearly illuminated. All
this work took a lot of *time. Aeons and Aeons if you will. But
then, becoming ONE, they finally harnessed the ability to fluidly bend
all time and space and go wherever they wished. So they endeavored to
travel back to the man who had started the whole shebang. They
traveled back back back in time and found him BEFORE HE EVEN BEGAN
WRITING HIS BOOKS. At this time, for them, in their own collective
minds, the "Great Work" had already been completed. But also, in this
time, for him, the Great Work had just begun. Nice little twisty
thing this concept of time. They say "JOIN US", and it takes him
several years to understand that he doesn't have to write those dayum
books anymore! Everybody is already ONE, it's just a matter of
notching the arrow of *time, pulling back the bow, finding THE WAY,
and letting it fly to return to source. It took the Great Teacher
years to accept that he could travel to any spatial point in time
simply by setting the proper course and willing himself there.

So yes, the Great Work is "never completed" for some who wish to
remain in a perpetual state of ignorance. But this is their
perogative. We have to realize that the sleepers chose this path,
quit trying to wake them all up, get off the soapbox and concentrate
on the ones who are ready for return. Let the rest of them BE. Part
of their minds is always awake anyhoo, and might be more than a little
pissed at us for trying to jar them out of sleep rather than just
leave a roadmap to ONE on the nightstand. Leave a candle in the
window for their return. Eventually they'll follow the Rainbow Lights
on the Abyss (Abiss is an alternate German word for Tannanbaum aka
Christmas Tree) up to the shining white light of the Angelic DAYSTAR
on the tippy top. And who will lead them when it is time? Santa
(Satan) Claus (Sakle). That bad bad evil dude who loves the hell outa
us so much that he became the SCAPEGOAT for all of our (ahem)
*percieved misery and self-guilt. And that is the Ommm-portant thingy
to re-member-- if it is all illusion, then so is our guilt and
suffering. Let it go!

Krag: "The sufis knew this, which is why they call God the "black
light""

Interesting word Sufi. Blavatsky (bless her soul) traveled to their
home to directly learn from them. She was informed that Sufi means
SOPHIA or WISDOM. So if one is really wise to their true self-nature,
then they gno that God is not just the "black light", or the dark
CLOUD of EGO they see when they close their eyes, but that God is also
a shining pure white light occulted by a dark moon. The Sufi's were
an esoteric extension of the Islam world. They understood that Islam
means SALIM (peace). They understood that the original meaning of the
word JIHAD was an inner struggle to defeat their own ignorance by
taming their ego.

Now we are faced with the amusing scenario of a cowboy in the White
House shouting Yeeee-HA! to his enemies Jiiii-HAD, when both terms are
a form of YHVH, or Shiva. Some people will take Vishnu's mace of
wisdom out of his hands and take turns bashing each other over the
head with it. It's all for our amusement! As Jesus said: 'Become as
passers by' and as a 'wanderer'. Don't get involved. Let them take
this and that and fight to the death over such degrees of distinction.

Krag: "One must negate the negation also. Not his and Not not this.

Which is absolute affirmation. This is why I regard Buddhism as
superior to the yogic conception"

Well whatever works for ya Krag. Whatever gets ya through the night,
is allright (J. Lennon). Buddhism, let's see. Guatama explained that
there would be the layperson Buddhist who seeks a central social
meeting place and a code of social ethics. There would be the
altruistic Buddhist who seeks to end suffering in others, and then
there would be those Boddhisattvas (Future Buddha's) who seek to
become a Buddha so as to liberate themselves from the cycle of
reincarnation and (as the gnostics might put it) from all the
Nirvana's + Hells contained in all the dimensions within this
Yaldabaothic Universe. And to do this, they will most definitely have
to partake of the "yogic conception" methods and CUNNINGLY so, or that
snake in their spines will never catch up with that white dove in
their minds, right? So one is only "superior" in that it is an
expansion and not a contraction of the techniques they both share in
common. What I like about the Yogic path is that it dispenses with
the dogma and rigamoral that has been built up around Buddhism.
Guatama fought against the birth of the religion but finally
surrendered to the inevitable and helped guide its fruition only
towards the end of his life. He used Yogic techniques to become
enlightened plain and simple. But this being said, within the Yogic
mindset there are several paths and the Buddha decried that of the
self-flaggelating and self-mutilating Jainists (which he had formerly
walked). So like Buddha, the MIDDLE PATH is the one I suggest. Be as
a gnostic-- don't subscribe to any one path towards gnosis and
ascension but mix and match until you've built your own path.

Once there was an initiate who desired to find source. She chose her
path, opened the door guarding it and began slowly climbing up the
mountain of understanding. There were many paths to choose from, all
guarded by a closed door. Sometimes her own path ended in another
series of doors and she had to choose another. She noticed that many
paths which she had not chosen at first sometimes ended up at the same
door she now stood in front of. The closer to the top she climbed,
the more paths fell away or joined together until finally, there was
only ONE PATH. This then was the true beginning of THE WAY. When she
learned that RE-LEGION is the return of the many to the ONE, she
finally realized that the mountain of understanding was something she
herself was building up. She therefore reached the top and, not
knowing where to go from there, sat down upon a rock and began the
true journey-- the inner journey in her own mind. She saw a great EYE
on top of the black pyramid like mountain (Masonic symbol alert)she
sat upon, above which was another mountain, only, this other mountain
was white and it was upside down. Eventually a man appeared at this
place of the joining of the two mountains. When she asked who he was
he said "I am he whom Plato spoke of as interposing my cross on the
body of the Universe you come from. I AM The WAY. None go to the
Father except through me. But I cannot stop you from going further,
for you have made it this far on your own. When you do so, even the
Father cannot keep you out of Heaven. Now go my child, grow wings and
fly from this mountain of ego." When he disappeared she considered
his words. The cross remained, with a white pearl at its very center.
She meditated long and hard until the white mountain interposed
itself with the black mountain. Kind of like Re-Penting the two
mountains if you will. When she was no longer subject to duality or
polarization, she started to grow her wings. His admonition still sang
in her ears as she flapped them about like an eaglet ready to leave
its nest. "Be SUPERIOR TO ME! Be like a child of the Holy Spirit!"
(Secret B. of James 3:16) Then, when she was ready to let go of the
mountain of facts that she had compiled concerning ONE, she jumped
off. As the Buddha admonished, she LET GO of that mountain and fell
away into the Abyss. Did her wings work? Did she fly back out and up
to ONE? Those who take the leap of faith over the walls they have
built around themselves for security will always be caught when they
fall. It's the bravest thing you could do-- this DYING. "I tell you
the truth: no one will be saved among those who fear death. For the
kingdom of death belongs to those who put themselves to death."
(Secret B. of James 3:16)

Krag: "That is what I wrote about Sophia making herself transparent

as a perfect relector of the Light of Christ. This is the Great Work.
It leads to transfiguration"

That beautiful mandela which Sophia is, how I love her sacrifice for
us ALL. Each little spark of light being a piece of a fractured
mirror, there is a trick to understanding the Great Work which I
earlier bumbled about trying to explain. It is all about how you
percieve the nature of TIME itself. Here is Krag containing a broken
mirror-piece of Sophia which shines in the dark night as it reflects
the light of God. When you move through the dark tunnel towards the
Dark Star you will note that all the scattered pieces of mandelic
light which you see around you begin to coalesce into ONE LIGHT. As
you travel down the tunnel you are traveling through time itself eh?
The closer you get to ONE the more unified those sparks of light
become, until you see them come together in a big electric blue
shining star. Hold on to this star or it will fly apart! You
concentrate, your mind is under great pressure, you turn this lump of
coal into a sparkling diamond. At its center is a luminescant white
cross. At the center of the cross is a white pearl. It shines pure
white light! Wait a minute-- it is both a small opening ("the way
out is the way in" -- Genesis) and ALSO something else! What else
could it be telling us? Well, here we are gazing at this spark of
light in our minds, and there it is REFLECTING OUR OWN LIGHT. Hmmmm,
but we were taught that the pieces of Sophia reflected the light of
ONE, of God-mind? And so they do. You are ONE, you are God, as you
already well know Krag. So it reflects you yourself does it not? The
journey home is as close as your own mind's EYE. This is your own
Great Work (as above so below).

Krag: "See Paracelsus: "I do not praise myself. All of nature praises

me". Cosm thinks that Paracelsus has completed the Great Work"

Paracelsus understood, for his friend and guide John-Mark taught him
everything he knew. And after John died, it was for Paracelsus to
lead the young Gnostics to the light despite the machinations of the
repeatedly re-generated Paul and Peter. While Paul and Peter won that
battle and nearly extinguished the light of the gnostics, John and
Paracelsus will now win the war and bring back the light in a tidal
wave of glory! Or not. Who gnos what the future holds? There are
many alternate timelines divurging and concerging like lightning.
Imagine!

The claim that "all of nature praises me",,, what does that mean?
There is a story wherein a Buddhist monk ventures to meet another who
has been reported to frequently enter into Samhadi. The visiting monk
asks whether he is conscious or rather lucidly aware of himself when
he enters this state, stating that if he is unaware when doing so,
then he alone is entering into Samhadi. But if he is aware when doing
so, Samhadi will touch the minds of all of humanity at once. The
meditating monk replies that he is not fully in either state but in
both at once to which his visitor ecstatically exclaims that the
rocks, trees and indeed all of the Universe enters into Samhadi with
him! Did not Jesus sometimes state that if he was not worshipped by
the masses that the "rocks and trees" would do so? He entered into
Samhadi as often as possible. This is what he referred to when
teaching his disciples about PRAYING to the Amen.

What is the Amen anyways? Historically speaking, Dionysus called Zeus
the "fallen Amen" when Seth had kicked him outa the big chair and
taken the Tablet of Destiny from him. But as Akhen-aten, Moses
struggled against the Egyptian priests who had unduly lifted Amen-Ra
to a state of Yaldabaothic like glorification as if the Amen-Ra was
contained within the PERSON and not the other way around. This is why
Moses erased all the Amen iconography he could find, replacing it with
that of the non-personalized all-giving ATEN.

What then was the Amen to the Egyptians before it was a person? One
priestly caste worshipped the hidden sun as RA-- which the Hebiri used
as a token word for EVIL. So here is the sun as RA, and the MOON as
Amen. Who was the Amen before the priests of Ra pirated his icon?
Marduk called his grandfather Anu as ANUM. Anu aka Manu had as his
symble the MOON, also called MO, SUEN, ANZU, ZION and SIN among many
other titular forms. All ye sinners pay attention now. Doesn't the
biblical El-Shaddai (Adad aka Seth/Baal/Satan) state that he will
PUNISH FOR THE CONFUSION OF ZION? Here he means for the confusion
CAUSED by Zion. And how does Zion cause this confusion? Seth is the
"Father of Lies" but more than this he is the son of the real father
of lies. Zion is the story teller who creates all these spin-off
dimensions by reshaping the history of HIS-STORY. He is Sin and Zion:
the straw who stirs your drink of *time. Just doin his job.

So here are the Egyptian priests who wished to show that both the
hidden sun (Ra) and the moon hiding/occulting it (Amen) were once part
of the same non-personalized and very esoteric concept. But of
course, just as in all slides into heretical error, the dogma became
exoteric and occulted even the hidden gnosis it really stood for.
Shall we run over our dogma with our karma? BEEP BEEP! Samhadi comin
through!

Underneath the Hebrew definition of Ra as evil there is another older
one-- Ra meant a 'funnel of light', as in a tornado or a twister.
Like the two mountains tip to tip on top of each other, like the
hourglass, like the Mobius Loop, like any number of metaphorical
symbols, the Ra and the Amen in your own mind are waiting for you to
discover them. There where the two funnels meet is the microverse,
the diamond, the white pearl in your mind.

Love ya bunches. Peace!

[Krag]

Nuvoadam wrote in message
<93508a0.03022...@posting.google.com>...

>Good ole Lao Tzu. Very secretive that one. Ask a Zen Buddhist what
>the name means and you'll probably get the perfunctory 'old man' or
>even 'old teacher'. Really? Hmmm. In the gnostic tradition I always
>prefer sleuthing out my own etymology.
>
>Lao = (The/this divine)
>Tzu = (Way)
>
>The Way.
>

I thought the Way was translated as Tao not Lao (Tzu, that is)

>
>Krag: "Yes, this is true. We are universes. We contain everything."
>
>Congratulations on being the first person I have ever encountered to
>say this Krag. Mithra's dark cave was IN HIS OWN MIND. This is the
>true Abyss we are lost within. In breaking through the EGG
>represented by the zodiac he was breaking through the confines of this
>Universe through the Gate of Gnosis. He *understood* that the rainbow
>eyes lining the dark tunnel through the Abyss in his mind were stars,
>Galaxies, Universes, Multiverses, etc. THIS IS THE WAY.

Krag: So tell me. What is the Philosphers' stone and how will I make it? How
do I 'square the circle', so to speak

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>Nuvo...@AOL.com (Nuvoadam):
>
>> How then are we to see Yaldaboath?
>
> The sources depict him as an abortion -- unlike your image
>of a babe-in-arms. The Apocryphon of John refers to
>Yaldabaoth as "the aborted fetus" (13:33, in the Berlin
>manuscript), the Hypostasis of the Archons says that he's "like
>an aborted fetus" (94:15),

It is aso calls him 'god of the blind' because of his ignorance (n0t evil)
Also says he's created from matter -- so he can be destroyed or changed by a
stronger force.

(not evil) and Hippolytus, RH 6.26, on the

[Kater Moggin]

Nuvo...@AOL.com (Nuvoadam):

>>> How then are we to see Yaldaboath?

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> The sources depict him as an abortion -- unlike your image
>> of a babe-in-arms. The Apocryphon of John refers to
>> Yaldabaoth as "the aborted fetus" (13:33, in the Berlin
>> manuscript), the Hypostasis of the Archons says that he's "like
>> an aborted fetus" (94:15), and Hippolytus, RH 6.26, on the
>> Valentinians' notion of the demiurge, describes Sophia "weeping
>> and bewailing on account of the abortion" she created, then
>> adds that Nous and Aletheia produced Christ in order to destroy
>> him.

Nuvo:

> Yes of course, they would now wouldn't they? =~)

Yes, in several respects. For one thing, the gnostics had
a negative view of the Creator of this world, so it's
unsurprising that they refer to him disparagingly, in this case
by calling him an abortion, and that they place him in
opposition to the Aeons. For another, the particular Aeons are
Nous and Aletheia, i.e., mind and truth. Makes good sense
they would be opposed to the Demiurge, who represents ignorance
and falsehood.

> But he lived, and he lives still. So he was NOT an "abortion" was he?

The Demiurge was not aborted, but he was still an abortion:
i.e., monstrous or malformed.

[Kater Moggin]

Nuvo...@AOL.com (Nuvoadam):

> >> How then are we to see Yaldaboath?

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> The sources depict him as an abortion -- unlike your image
>> of a babe-in-arms. The Apocryphon of John refers to
>> Yaldabaoth as "the aborted fetus" (13:33, in the Berlin
>> manuscript), the Hypostasis of the Archons says that he's "like

>> an aborted fetus" (94:15), and Hippolytus, RH 6.26, on the

>> Valentinians' notion of the demiurge, describes Sophia "weeping
>> and bewailing on account of the abortion" she created, then
>> adds that Nous and Aletheia produced Christ in order to destroy
>> him.

Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

[re Hypostasis of the Archons[

> It is aso calls him 'god of the blind' because of his ignorance (n0t evil)

The Hypostasis of the Archons does not say the demiurge is
not evil. On the contrary, it depicts him as an evil guy.
Yes, he's called "Samael," i.e., "blind god" -- a name which he
receives after declaring, "It is I who am God; there is none
apart from me," which the text explicitly calls a _sin_: "When
he said this, he sinned..." (86:3).

So the demiurge's ignorance is not innocence: it's sinful.
In fact the previous line refers to "his power and his
ignorance and his arrogance" (86:30), indictating his ignorance
is part of a larger syndrome, and the whole thing begins by
quoting Ephesians 6:12, which says, "Our contest is not
against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the
universe and the spirits of wickedness." That makes Yaldabaoth
and the other archons wicked, which is exactly how later scenes
here describe them.

For example, they rape Eve (89:17-31), by which "they made
themselves liable to condemnation. They curse Adam and Eve
and throw them out of the Garden. What's more, we're told they
thereby

threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of
toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly
affairs and might not have the opportunity of being
devoted to the holy spirit.
(91:7-10)

A bit later (92:18-93:1), they try to treat Noria the same
way they did Eve. She tells all of them off, including "the
chief ruler," saying, "It is you who are the rulers of the
darkness; you are accursed," and describing them as "the rulers
of injustice."

Even Yaldabaoth's own son, Sabaoth, is said to condemn him:
"When his offspring Sabaoth saw the force of that angel, he
repented and condemned his father and his mother, matter." (in
95:13-16.) Bottom line: to say that demiurge in the
Hypostasis of the Archons is ignorant rather than evil is false.
He's both.

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>Nuvo...@AOL.com (Nuvoadam):
>
>> >> How then are we to see Yaldaboath?
>
>Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:
>
>>> The sources depict him as an abortion -- unlike your image
>>> of a babe-in-arms. The Apocryphon of John refers to
>>> Yaldabaoth as "the aborted fetus" (13:33, in the Berlin
>>> manuscript), the Hypostasis of the Archons says that he's "like
>>> an aborted fetus" (94:15), and Hippolytus, RH 6.26, on the
>>> Valentinians' notion of the demiurge, describes Sophia "weeping
>>> and bewailing on account of the abortion" she created, then
>>> adds that Nous and Aletheia produced Christ in order to destroy
>>> him.
>
>Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:
>
>[re Hypostasis of the Archons[
>
>> It is aso calls him 'god of the blind' because of his ignorance (n0t
evil)
>
> The Hypostasis of the Archons does not say the demiurge is
>not evil. On the contrary, it depicts him as an evil guy.
>Yes, he's called "Samael," i.e., "blind god" -- a name which he
>receives after declaring, "It is I who am God; there is none
>apart from me," which the text explicitly calls a _sin_: "When
>he said this, he sinned..." (86:3).

I thought Samael meant the 'poisoner of god". That's what kabbalists think
it means, at least.

But isn't sin just a transgression (of a law of some kind)
Couldn't we sin in ignorance?

>
> So the demiurge's ignorance is not innocence:

It's innocence, until he sins

it's sinful.
>In fact the previous line refers to "his power and his
>ignorance and his arrogance" (86:30), indictating his ignorance
>is part of a larger syndrome, and the whole thing begins by
>quoting Ephesians 6:12, which says, "Our contest is not
>against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the
>universe and the spirits of wickedness." That makes Yaldabaoth
>and the other archons wicked, which is exactly how later scenes
>here describe them.
>
> For example, they rape Eve (89:17-31), by which "they made
>themselves liable to condemnation. They curse Adam and Eve
>and throw them out of the Garden. What's more, we're told they
>thereby
>
> threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of
> toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly
> affairs and might not have the opportunity of being
> devoted to the holy spirit.
> (91:7-10)

This is still true even today

>
> A bit later (92:18-93:1), they try to treat Noria the same
>way they did Eve. She tells all of them off, including "the
>chief ruler," saying, "It is you who are the rulers of the
>darkness; you are accursed," and describing them as "the rulers
>of injustice."
>
> Even Yaldabaoth's own son, Sabaoth, is said to condemn him:
>"When his offspring Sabaoth saw the force of that angel, he
>repented and condemned his father and his mother, matter." (in
>95:13-16.) Bottom line: to say that demiurge in the
>Hypostasis of the Archons is ignorant rather than evil is false.

I just don't know what you mean by 'both' here. Evil has an element of
intentionality to it. Ignorance doesn't. But if Samael really DID think
there was no god but him, then he wasn't intentionally sinning..only sinning
frrom ignorance. Albeit, this 'sin' may have MADE him evil, but it was still
a consequence of ignorance. And also Sophia's ignorance.

[Kater Moggin]

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> The Hypostasis of the Archons does not say the demiurge is
>> not evil. On the contrary, it depicts him as an evil guy.
>> Yes, he's called "Samael," i.e., "blind god" -- a name which he
>> receives after declaring, "It is I who am God; there is none
>> apart from me," which the text explicitly calls a _sin_: "When
>> he said this, he sinned..." (86:3).

>> So the demiurge's ignorance is not innocence: it's sinful.

>> In fact the previous line refers to "his power and his
>> ignorance and his arrogance" (86:30), indictating his ignorance
>> is part of a larger syndrome, and the whole thing begins by
>> quoting Ephesians 6:12, which says, "Our contest is not
>> against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the
>> universe and the spirits of wickedness." That makes Yaldabaoth
>> and the other archons wicked, which is exactly how later scenes
>> here describe them.

>> For example, they rape Eve (89:17-31), by which "they made
>> themselves liable to condemnation. They curse Adam and Eve
>> and throw them out of the Garden. What's more, we're told they
>> thereby

>> threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of
>> toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly
>> affairs and might not have the opportunity of being
>> devoted to the holy spirit.
>> (91:7-10)

>> A bit later (92:18-93:1), they try to treat Noria the same

>> way they did Eve. She tells all of them off, including "the
>> chief ruler," saying, "It is you who are the rulers of the
>> darkness; you are accursed," and describing them as "the rulers
>> of injustice."

>> Even Yaldabaoth's own son, Sabaoth, is said to condemn him:
>> "When his offspring Sabaoth saw the force of that angel, he
>> repented and condemned his father and his mother, matter." (in
>> 95:13-16.) Bottom line: to say that demiurge in the
>> Hypostasis of the Archons is ignorant rather than evil is false.

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>

> > It's innocence, until he sins

Not according to the text -- the Hypostatis of the Archons
-- which begins by referring to "the spirits of wickedness"
-- a quote from Ephesians -- then says Yaldabaoth is blinded by
"his power and his ignorance and his arrogance." The idea
he's a mere innocent never turns up. Instead the story goes on
to illustrate his sinful arrogance -- he declares he's the
only god -- and describe the evil things he does along with the
lesser archons. Examples above.

> I just don't know what you mean by 'both' here.

It's simple as can be. You falsely claimed the Hypostasis
of the Archons depicts the demiurge as ignorant, not evil.
Even a glance at the text is enough to show you're wrong: he's
presented as ignorant and evil, both.

> Evil has an element of
> intentionality to it. Ignorance doesn't. But if Samael really DID think
> there was no god but him, then he wasn't intentionally sinning..only sinning
> frrom ignorance.

False. In that instance, Samael sinned from ignorance and
arrogance combined. Later on he and the other archons rape
Eve, expell Adam and Eve from the Garden, distract mankind from
the holy spirit by imposing a life of work, etc. They're
labeled "the rulers of injustice" and equated with "the spirits
of wickedness" in Ephesians.

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>

>> I just don't know what you mean by 'both' here.
>
> It's simple as can be. You falsely claimed the Hypostasis
>of the Archons depicts the demiurge as ignorant, not evil.
>Even a glance at the text is enough to show you're wrong: he's
>presented as ignorant and evil, both.

Krag: But what I'm saying regardless of what those tests say, because they
fail to analyse the matter) is that his arrogance and evil is a consequence
of his ignorance , of the fact that he thinks there is no there god than
him. His ignorance is not the consequence of his arrogane and evil. It's the
other way around

>
>> Evil has an element of
>> intentionality to it. Ignorance doesn't. But if Samael really DID think
>> there was no god but him, then he wasn't intentionally sinning..only
sinning
>> frrom ignorance.
>
> False. In that instance, Samael sinned from ignorance and
>arrogance combined.

Krag: What is his arrogance but a form of ignorance (ie ignorance of the
fact he is inferior to the powers above him, and therefore arrogantly
exalted himself BECAUSE of this ignorance)

[Steve]

>>YOU are Yaldabaoth.

hence the desperation of the situation.

[Kater Moggin]

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> You falsely claimed the Hypostasis
>> of the Archons depicts the demiurge as ignorant, not evil.
>> Even a glance at the text is enough to show you're wrong: he's
>> presented as ignorant and evil, both.

Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> But what I'm saying regardless of what those tests say.

Those texts -- the Hypostasis of the Archons, specifically
-- are what we're discussing. Someone contended Yaldabaoth
was an innocent baby, but the Apocryphon of John, the
Hypostasis of the Archons, and the Valentinians as described in
Hippolytus call him an abortion, not a babe in arms. You
argued that he was ignorant, not evil, in the Hypostasis of the
Archons, but you were mistaken: he's classed with "the
spirits of wickedness" and "the rulers of darkness," and that's
what he is: along with the lesser archons he rapes Eve, throws
Adam and Eve out of the Garden, compels mankind to work as a
distraction from the holy spirit, etc. Obviously an evil fella.

> because they fail to analyse the matter)

You're running away from the gnostic writings because they
don't say what you want them to. So, fine. Nobody says
you've gotta like gnosticism. Find something that better suits
your taste.

> What is his arrogance but a form of ignorance (ie ignorance of the
> fact he is inferior to the powers above him, and therefore arrogantly
> exalted himself BECAUSE of this ignorance)

Nope. Ignorance alone wouldn't cause his self-exhaltation.
He could've been modestly ignorant, in which case he'd have
looked around, noticed no other gods, and thought, "Well, I may
be the only god, but how can I be sure? Maybe there are
higher spirits that I don't see." But the story says that he's
ignorant _and_ arrogant: it explicitly assigns him both
qualities. So when he fails to perceive anything above him, he
immediately and arrogantly declares that he's god and
positively denies there are any others. Notice the text states
that he's sinned.

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:
>
>>> You falsely claimed the Hypostasis
>>> of the Archons depicts the demiurge as ignorant, not evil.
>>> Even a glance at the text is enough to show you're wrong: he's
>>> presented as ignorant and evil, both.
>
>Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:
>
>> But what I'm saying regardless of what those tests say.
>
> Those texts -- the Hypostasis of the Archons, specifically
>-- are what we're discussing. Someone contended Yaldabaoth
>was an innocent baby, but the Apocryphon of John, the
>Hypostasis of the Archons, and the Valentinians as described in
>Hippolytus call him an abortion, not a babe in arms. You
>argued that he was ignorant, not evil, in the Hypostasis of the
>Archons, but you were mistaken: he's classed with "the
>spirits of wickedness" and "the rulers of darkness," and that's
>what he is: along with the lesser archons he rapes Eve, throws
>Adam and Eve out of the Garden, compels mankind to work as a
>distraction from the holy spirit, etc. Obviously an evil fella.
>
>> because they fail to analyse the matter)
>
> You're running away from the gnostic writings because they
>don't say what you want them to. So, fine. Nobody says
>you've gotta like gnosticism. Find something that better suits
>your taste.

This is bullshit. You're running away from the fact that they don't DEFINE
evil or its causes when it's plain that the demi-urge's arrogance/evil or
whatever-the-fuck you want to call it, arises from IGNORANCE. He is IGNORANT
before evil. He is not evil and THEN ignorant

>
>> What is his arrogance but a form of ignorance (ie ignorance of the
>> fact he is inferior to the powers above him, and therefore arrogantly
>> exalted himself BECAUSE of this ignorance)
>
> Nope. Ignorance alone wouldn't cause his self-exhaltation.
>He could've been modestly ignorant,

If you thought you wre a GOD, would you be modest?
In any case, even if he could have been modestly ignorantly as u put
it ---he WASN'T...he took the other option so your arguement is simply
irrelevant

But that isn't what But the story says that he's

>ignorant _and_ arrogant: it explicitly assigns him both
>qualities. So when he fails to perceive anything above him, he
>immediately and arrogantly declares that he's god and
>positively denies there are any others. Notice the text states
>that he's sinned.

yes, his sin was based on ignorance -- because there WERE god above him

[Kater Moggin]

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> Someone contended Yaldabaoth
>> was an innocent baby, but the Apocryphon of John, the
>> Hypostasis of the Archons, and the Valentinians as described in
>> Hippolytus call him an abortion, not a babe in arms. You
>> argued that he was ignorant, not evil, in the Hypostasis of the
>> Archons, but you were mistaken: he's classed with "the
>> spirits of wickedness" and "the rulers of darkness," and that's
>> what he is: along with the lesser archons he rapes Eve, throws
>> Adam and Eve out of the Garden, compels mankind to work as a
>> distraction from the holy spirit, etc. Obviously an evil fella.

>> You're running away from the gnostic writings because they

>> don't say what you want them to. So, fine. Nobody says
>> you've gotta like gnosticism. Find something that better suits
>> your taste.

Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> This is bullshit.

This is gnosticism: in particular, two of the Nag Hammadi
texts, one ancient account of the Valentinians.

> If you thought you wre a GOD, would you be modest?
> In any case, even if he could have been modestly ignorantly as u put
> it ---he WASN'T...he took the other option so your arguement is simply
> irrelevant

No, that is my argument: you're making it for me. If the
demiurge had been humble, he wouldn't have leaped to the
conclusion that he was god, and there were no other gods beside
him. But since he was arrogant as well as ignorant, he
immediately declared that he and he alone was divine. Thus the
narrator's remark that he sinned.

[Dreamsnake]

Krag wrote:
[...]

> I just don't know what you mean by 'both' here. Evil has an element of
> intentionality to it. Ignorance doesn't.

You see it this way because you are still trapped in the mainstream
thought of Western civilization. Open your mind. Ignorance *is* evil.

Dreamsnake

[Krag]

Dreamsnake wrote in message <3E5A3EAF...@ou.edu>...

I don't have a problem with that. But in that case, it still isn't
intentional. No one is intentionally ignorant, because the intention would
involve KNOWING what you are ignorant of so as to be ignorant of it.
Obviously absurd
>
>Dreamsnake
>
>
>
>

[Nuvoadam]

> Krag: "So tell me. What is the Philosphers' stone and how will I make it? How
> do I 'square the circle', so to speak"

Lao (the divine) Tzu (gateway) is a path that we must each walk alone.
Moses' last words to the Israelites were a roadmap: "It is not
hidden from you, neither is it far off. It is not in Heaven, that
thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to Heaven, and bring it to
us that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that
thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to
us that we may hear it and do it? But the word is very near to thee,
in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

The Philosophers Stone is something you find when you are looking for
something else. And relatedly, when you are looking for something
else, you may realize that you've been looking at circles and squares
where before you just thought you saw a cross, or a small dot
appearing as a white stone.

"...and something moist like water flowed from my head to my feet, and
the smell of fragrant oil reached my nostrils." (The Gospel of
Nicodemus 15)

I seek the fountain of life from which spirit flows like water. It is
not hidden from me, and neither is it far off. It is not in Heaven
nor over the sea. No one may go and bring it to me so that I may hear
it and do it. But it is very near to me, in my mouth and in my heart.
And by understanding even some of the many metaphors surrounding it I
may find it.

Aslan led the children to a group of dwarves who percieved about them
the darkest cave yet in truth sat in the brightest daylight. They
could hear the children implore them to open their eyes and yet they
refused to believe that the darkness was the real illusion. They
always lived in the light of ONE, but they just chose not to see it.
They chose to live in the darkness of Plato's Cave.

To get out of this cave we must first investigate the possibility of
an opening. After much groping about our fingers find carved on the
rock wall an engraving of a man-- in his forehead is the smallest dot
of bright light peeking in from somewhere beyond the wall. Somehow we
must shrink ourselves down like Alice in the rabbit-hole. Then we
should be just small enough to squeeze through the tight opening.
Rather like being BORN AGAIN when you think about it.

That bright light reminds me of the Philosopher Stone. It reminds me
of a fountain of light and a river of life. It reminds me of a
lightning white cross at the center of a electric red rose. When I
find it I am reminded of a rising sun and I worship this sun even as
it praises me for finding it. This sun hidden in the dark cave has a
glory about it. Sometimes I percieve this glory as a tunnel filled
with rainbow eyes, other times as the effervescent scintillation of a
bright light reflecting off of a perfect diamond.

And when I still my mind, it becomes a still pond. Every now and
again I have a thought which lifts me like a white dove and carries me
across the water as the wind beneath my wings.

[Krag]

Nuvoadam wrote in message
<93508a0.03022...@posting.google.com>...

Krag: Who ARE you? You're the only person I know of apart from cosm who has
ever even mentioned the white stone from the book of revelation. Are you an
alchemist?
You don't know how desperate I am to find the world you're talking about.

[Kater Moggin]

Dreamsnake <ktre...@ou.edu>:

> Ignorance *is* evil.

That would be why even a relatively mild gnostic myth like
Ptolemy's presents the demiurge as both ignorant _and_
arrogant -- not just uninformed. Bultmannn puts it this way in
Kittel's: "Gnosis is a form of piety, and ignorance...is
not only lack of knowledge, but also wickedness." I think he's
got a point there.

[Dreamsnake]

Krag wrote:

Why is intentionality important to you? Does it matter if a volcano
is intentionally evil, or do you focus on identifying it as a threat and
getting away from it?

Was Hitler intentionally evil, or did he do what he thought was best?

Did Oedipus benefit from his good intentions?

Dreamsnake

[Krag]

Dreamsnake wrote in message <3E5B955C...@ou.edu>...

Krag: Thankyou dreamsnake. You just gave me some more ammo against the
stupid idea that demi-urge is evil. He is doing what is Good from his point
of view. He certainly thinks he is good. Like ego, he sees himself on the
side of good at all times. Satre said something along these lines....ie We
always act for the good, or do what we think is best.
>

[Krag]

Nuvoadam wrote in message
<93508a0.03022...@posting.google.com>...

>Good ole Lao Tzu. Very secretive that one. Ask a Zen Buddhist what
>the name means and you'll probably get the perfunctory 'old man' or
>even 'old teacher'. Really? Hmmm. In the gnostic tradition I always
>prefer sleuthing out my own etymology.
>
>Lao = (The/this divine)
>Tzu = (Way)
>
>The Way.

Krag:
Doesn't "Tao" (not Tzu) mean 'The Way" as in Tao te ching..."The classic of
the Way and its virtue (te)?

Don't know alot about Taoism, but as far as 'Sufi" deriving from the greek
Soph/Sophia, you (and/or Blavatsky) are incorrect. The fact is, there are
any number of possibilities of its derivation, but Soph isn't one of them. A
number of scholars think that the word Tasawouf (sufism) derives from 'Suf"
which means 'wool' , because the first century muslims clothed themselves in
woollen garmants as a protest against worldly luxury. Other contenders are
'sufateh", which is the name of a thin plant and was applied to the sufis
because they were usually very thin from their ascetic practice of fasting.
But scholars debate this also. In fact, a number have come to the conclusion
that sufism does not derive from a root word at all. The bit below is
written by D.R Nahid Angha of the International association of sufism:

"It would seem that despite the efforts of many scholars, we come to the
understanding that actually no one knows the origin of the word Tasawouf --
and , it might be added, the full reality of Sufism as well. Just as Sufism
cannot be explained in terms of earlier Gnostic schools, so it appears that
Sufism is not a word derived from a preexisting root word; the Sufism is
best understood when we learn about it through the explanation of one of the
most influential figures among Sufis. He reveals the mystery of the word
Sufism (Tasawouf) as well as introducing those principles which make a
seeker a Sufi. This teacher, Imam Ali, was the cousin and the son- in-law of
the Prophet Mohammed.

Sufism is best described by the words of this mysterious teacher. It is
narrated from Amir-al-Moumenin Ali (as well as Imam Sadegh, his grandson)
who said that Tasawouf is an acronym of four letters. (Tasawouf is a four
letter word: TSVF and pronounced Tasawouf in its original language.) Each
letter holds a secret representing one stage or quality of a Sufi. Together
the word TSVF makes the twelve Principles; one who perfects these principles
is a Sufi.

T, the first letter stands for three practices of Tark (abandonment); Tubeh
(repentance); and Tugha (virtue)

S, the second letter of the word stands for another three qualities to be
perfected by a salek: Sabr (patience); Sedgh (truthfulness and honesty); and
Safa (purity).

V, the third letter stands for: Vud (love); Verd (Zekr and remembrance); and
Vafa'a (faithfulness).

F, the final letter, represents another three qualifications: Fard
(solitude); Faghr (poverty); and Fana (annihilation)."

The word 'Allah" or ALLA is said to mean "Being and nothingness". It is the
sound of your breathing in..."All" and beathing out "Ahhh"....or being
dissolving into divine nothingness. It is a bit like ABBA...in that the
second syllable is a reflection or image of the first, showing the opposite
process or the same process reversed. Alpha and Omega. Look at the word
Kabbalah...you have 'Ka" and "ba" and "abba" and "all" and Allah (depending
on spelling) and "abba" (Father). Ain Soph and the SOPHera or
sephira...being emanations or projections of pysche/Sophia in gradually
denser grades finally coming to mainifestation as a body, which is the
lowest phase of psyche. Psyche itself is a mirror that the Divine holds up
to itself so that it may know/Gno its own ineffable nature. That mirror
becomes 'dirty' when psyche identifies with body, obscuring our divine
identity. Sufism and gnosticism are simply ways of cleansing it so it
becomes a perfect reflector of the Light of Pneuma/Spirit.

Krag

[Kater Moggin]

Dreamsnake <ktre...@ou.edu>:

[to Krag]

> Why is intentionality important to you? Does it matter if a volcano
> is intentionally evil, or do you focus on identifying it as a threat and
> getting away from it? >Was Hitler intentionally evil, or did he do what
> he thought was best?

Krag <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> Thankyou dreamsnake. You just gave me some more ammo against the
> stupid idea that demi-urge is evil. He is doing what is Good from his point
> of view. He certainly thinks he is good. Like ego, he sees himself on the
> side of good at all times. Satre said something along these lines....ie We
> always act for the good, or do what we think is best.

Thank you, Krag, for demonstrating that the same the logic
you're using to to exonerate the demiurge leads to the
conclusion that Hitler really wasn't an evil person. Nuff said.

[Kater Moggin]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> Psyche itself is a mirror that the Divine holds up
> to itself so that it may know/Gno its own ineffable nature. That mirror
> becomes 'dirty' when psyche identifies with body, obscuring our divine
> identity. Sufism and gnosticism are simply ways of cleansing it so it
> becomes a perfect reflector of the Light of Pneuma/Spirit.

You may want to learn a bit about gnosticism before making
any more pronouncements. No, hold on, that isn't what you'd
want at all. You don't want to learn a thing -- only to babble
mindlessly. Well, good work.

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

Well, what would you say is fundamentally wrong with the above
pronouncement?
And please explain it in minute detail so I can respond point by point.

[Kater Moggin]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

>>> Psyche itself is a mirror that the Divine holds up
>>> to itself so that it may know/Gno its own ineffable nature. That
>>> mirror becomes 'dirty' when psyche identifies with body, obscuring
>>> our divine identity. Sufism and gnosticism are simply ways of
>>> cleansing it so it becomes a perfect reflector of the Light of
>>> Pneuma/Spirit.

Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:

>> You may want to learn a bit about gnosticism before making
>> any more pronouncements. No, hold on, that isn't what you'd
>> want at all. You don't want to learn a thing -- only to babble
>> mindlessly. Well, good work.

Krag:

> Well, what would you say is fundamentally wrong with the above
> pronouncement?

I'd say it's a fundamentally uninformed comment that shows
no understanding of the topic it addresses.

> And please explain it in minute detail so I can respond point by point.

Every time I've gone into detail -- for instance about the

Apocryphon of John, the Hypostasis of the Archons, and

Ptolemy's myth -- you dodged point by point. You even admitted
you didn't care about the info in the sources. That's why I
corrected myself when I said you may want to learn a few things
about gnosticism. You don't.

[Dreamsnake]

Krag wrote:

I hoped to provoke some thought and perhaps a good discussion, butapparently all
I have done is given you the opportunity to demonstrate
that you are incapable of listening or of considering ideas different from
your own. You want to argue a point? First you must understand
what you are arguing against. So listen up!

Evil is not limited to intentional human agency. There is an enormous
body of literature on the problem of evil in philosophy and religion,
and it includes accidents as well as deliberate acts. Take a look at
any dictionary of philosophy if you do not believe me. "Evil" is
sometimes divided into two subcategories--natural evil and moral
evil--but they are both considered to be evil. You are the one who
is trying to redefine the word, not me.

Even if we limit the discussion to moral evil, there is ample precedent
for calling something evil even if it arises from the best of intentions.
For your benefit, I quote from the article on "Evil" in the _Routledge
Encyclopedia of Philosophy_:

"The philosophically most influential explanation of evil is embedded
in the Socratic view that no one does evil knowingly. The thought
behind the apparently obvious falsehood of this claim is that human
agents are normally guided in their actions by what seems to be
good to them. The explanation of evil actions must therefore be
either that the agents are ignorant of the good, and perform evil
actions in the mistaken belief that they are good, or, while they know
what the good is, they do evil unintentionally through accident,
coercion, or some incapactiy. The remedy for evil, consequently, is
moral education that imparts genuine knowledge of the good and
strengthens the intention to act on it." (John Kekes, p. 464)

I quote this not because I am a follower of Socrates, but to show
that intentions are not the only thing to consider when it comes to
judging something evil or good. You dislike the way I use the word
"evil," but it is a standard, long-accepted usage to apply it to
situations having nothing to do with intent or free will. If you want me
to accept your definition, you will have to present an argument for it,
not make a blanket assertion that my idea is "stupid."

And do try, please, to present an actual argument. The 'God told me
so and you are stupid' line you have been taking is winning you no
converts. At this point, nobody here has any reason to accept you as
a superior source of revelation with a special access to God. All you
have given us is your say-so. You do not act saintly or perform
miracles, for example. How can we tell you are not lying or deluded?

The reason I speak on an intellectual level (I cannot speak for anyone
else in the newsgroup) is that it is the only level that can be shared by
people of differing religious outlooks. 'God told me so and you are
wrong, so shut up and agree with me' convinces nobody. It is just
that sort of "logic" that led to the devastation of entire countries during
the Reformation. You do not look right; you just look arrogant.
Perhaps that is why you are so eager to defend the Demiurge--you
identify with its arrogance.

Dreamsnake

[Krag]

Dreamsnake wrote in message <3E5D02D2...@ou.edu>...

Krag: No, Good FOR them. And what is good for me as an ego, becomes GOOD as
such. Therefore, I always act thinking that I am doing what is best for all.
Hitler doesn't include the Jews in his conception of "all"...they are
literally nothing, not part of the all. So he is doing the rest of humanity
(ie german's) the biggest favour and he is doing what is best

The explanation of evil actions must therefore be
>either that the agents are ignorant of the good, and perform evil
>actions

First of all, you would have to come up with a universal conception of good
and evil that is aplicable in all cases or otherwise u wouldn't be able to
say they are ignorant of 'evil'. They may only be ignorant of what YOU call
evil and therefore not truly ignorant at all (since u might have a mistaken
idea of what constitutes evil)

in the mistaken belief that they are good, or, while they know
>what the good is, they do evil unintentionally through accident,
>coercion, or some incapactiy. The remedy for evil, consequently, is
>moral education that imparts genuine knowledge of the good and
>strengthens the intention to act on it." (John Kekes, p. 464)

But who gets to teach? How do the teachers know that THEY have the correct
conception of morality? Nietzsche said that Good originally derived from the
masters, who applied it to themselves as noble, powerful, beatiful etc. This
is what GOOd meant...and then it got watered down by democracy and
re-sentiment etc.
>

>
>Dreamsnake
>

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

Krag: Well, teach me then. Let me know of your world view. Do you for
instance, believe that a God besides the demi-urge exists? Do you believe in
archons etc?
Which gnostic teachings do u except as valid and which ones (if any)
non-valid

[Kater Moggin]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> Well, teach me then.

You've already made it plain you don't want to learn. You
said in so many words you don't care what's in the gnostic
writings or other sources, and sure enough, you've dodged every
time that I've offered details. Obviously you don't care
about gnosticism. Which is fine. But since you don't know and
don't care, stop prattling on the topic.

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

I said I didn't care what irenaeus and gnosticism had to say on a particular
topic we were discussing. But I very much DO care about gnosticism as a
means of liberation from matter

[Kater Moggin]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> I said I didn't care what irenaeus and gnosticism had to say on a particular
> topic we were discussing.

Uh-huh. And the topic was gnosticism. You don't know and
you don't care.

-- Moggim

[Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar Jatt]

"Nuvoadam" <Nuvo...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:93508a0.03022...@posting.google.com...

> > Krag: "So tell me. What is the Philosphers' stone and how will I make
it? How
> > do I 'square the circle', so to speak"
>
> Lao (the divine) Tzu (gateway) is a path that we must each walk alone.
> Moses' last words to the Israelites were a roadmap: "It is not
> hidden from you, neither is it far off. It is not in Heaven,

Where is this Heaven?

Gnostics do not believe in Heaven and Hell as places.

Rajinder

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:
>
>> I said I didn't care what irenaeus and gnosticism had to say on a
particular
>> topic we were discussing.
>
> Uh-huh. And the topic was gnosticism. You don't know and
>you don't care.

Tell me something. Are you actually a pupil of a gnostic school?
It what sense ARE you a gnostic. If this is all just intellectual learning,
I wouldn't bother with it. Learn the wisdom of the world, because that is
where you will remain without gnosis.

[Nuvoadam]

Rajinder:

> Where is this Heaven?
>
> Gnostics do not believe in Heaven and Hell as places.

Really?

"Yaldabaoth stationed seven kings (one for each sphere of Heaven) to
reign over the seven Heavens, and five to reign over the depths of
Hell." (Secret Book of John 7:8)

There are so many gnostic references to Heavens and Hells that it
would be tedious to even begin to list them all. Rather than doing
so, I'll try to summarize this aspect of the gnostic paradigm.

When Yaldabaoth was born, he obtained from his mother a memory of her
own Pleromic Heaven. This memory included the past history of the
Pleroma, which is what the Great Seth was refering to when he informed
humanity that they were false copies of the first humanity, including
the real Patriarchs.

Yaldabaoth was a Universe, as were the Pleromic beings. He created
within himself (and not around himself as some seem to believe) seven
seperate dimensions, each similar to the other and each ruled by a
similar and yet seperate Heaven. It is important to realize that each
act of Yaldabaoth RE-ENACTS the history of the Pleroma, so once upon a
time the Pleroma themselves had dwelled within a lower series of
Heavens only to collectively rise up to higher realms.

In falling from grace, Sophia fell into a lower dimensional state than
before, and could not return to the higher realms. When the Pleromic
God-Squad came to rescue her they collected enough of her lost
power/essence to place her in a Heaven above Yaldabaoth, where she
awaits the fruition of her plan-- the ENLIGHTENMENT of humanity and
thereafter of Yaldabaoth and the return of her now magnified lower
sparks of power to her higher self.

There are two distinct concepts of Heaven in the gnostic mindset.
There are the 7 Heavens of Yaldabaoth. These dimensions exist as part
of the "twelve realms (which) belong to the self-produced Child"
(Secret Book of John 5:8).
Each of the 12 realms (or 13 according to some) has its own version of
Heaven.

I'm not sure if the other concept of gnostic Heaven is more
accessible, but it is slightely different. The gnostics believed in
something called the 'Light Worlds'. For all intents and purposes
these light worlds exist on top of the magnetosphere of any celestial
object strong enough to generate them. The Hindu cosmogony spoke of
the Asura Demons as being from the worlds of matter, while the Daevas
were from the worlds 'of light'.

Most of the planets of this Universe are uninhabitable for complex
life and yet
if they have a viable magnetosphere they are potential Heavenly
Nirvana's. Imagine a place where one can create just about anything
with just the power of their thoughts! But the worlds of light are
not limited to planets, for any large celestial object with a
magnetosphere is a potential host for enlightened light. For
instance, the Essenes claim that their masters, once ascended, spend
half of the year upon the surface of our sun in communion with any who
are able to find this place.

The gnostic concept of Hell is twofold as well. The Secret Book of
John is a hodgepodge of different esoteric traditions mixed together
as one. Nonetheless it is one place to look for a gnostic description
of the Hell of this dimension. The second concept of Hell is more
interesting, to me at least. The farther we descend down the
dimensional ladder away from ONE, the further out on the Dharma Wheel
we are. Out here on the edge of the Wheel of Time we life in the
Fires of Hell.

One of the Greek words for Hell is Hayle. This can refer to an abyss,
but more specifically it refers to the black Abyss of SPACE. So for a
Greek farmer looking up at the night sky, out there in the Abyss was
Hell. I like to use this analogy to describe seperation from ONE as
being the ultimate state of Hell. Like Yaldabaoth, most of us dwell
in IGNORANT DARKNESS (S.B. of John 7:9), for we percieve that somehow
we are far far away from the highest realm of ONE. We live in the
FIRE of TIME and SPACE in this place. I know there are plenty of
worse descriptions of other states of Hell, but this state is a
Hellish one in and of itself.

It is sortof a halfway house. The Nords had a goddess called URTHA,
or Mother Earth. Her alternate name was HELLA, or the goddess of
HELL. Works for me!

All this talk of 13 had gotten me thirsty. Water water everywhere and
not a drop to drink? Naaaahhh! Think I'll drink some HIGH C.
Heavens, Dimensions and OCTAVES--- Oh My!

[Kater Moggin]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:

> Tell me something.

I tried to tell you a few things about gnosticism. Turned
out you weren't interested in the topic. Odd thing is you
keep talking about it, even tho you've made clear that you have
no knowledge and no concern.

-- Moggin

[Krag]

Kater Moggin wrote in message ...

>"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz>:
>
>> Tell me something.
>
> I tried to tell you a few things about gnosticism.

>out you weren't interested in the topic. Odd thing is you

>keep talking about it, even tho you've made clear that you have
>no knowledge and no concern.

Oh, well. Maybe there's still hope for mre yet, since I'm asking for your
help now. Of course, given that I've been quite rude and impolite with you I
can quite understand why you woudn't want tio talk to me any more.

Thnaks anyway,
Krag

[Dreamsnake]

Krag wrote:

> Dreamsnake wrote in message <3E5D02D2...@ou.edu>...

[...]

> >Even if we limit the discussion to moral evil, there is ample precedent
> >for calling something evil even if it arises from the best of intentions.
> >For your benefit, I quote from the article on "Evil" in the _Routledge
> >Encyclopedia of Philosophy_:
> >
> >"The philosophically most influential explanation of evil is embedded
> >in the Socratic view that no one does evil knowingly. The thought
> >behind the apparently obvious falsehood of this claim is that human
> >agents are normally guided in their actions by what seems to be
> >good to them.
>
> Krag: No, Good FOR them.

As I said before, the viewpoint described in the article is not mine.I quoted it
simply to show that there is ample precedent for calling
something "evil" even when no evil intent is involved. Your
definition of "evil" is narrow, not the matter-of-fact thing you have
been approaching it as. If you want to argue the fine points, write
the author. Or better yet, try channeling Socrates.

Dreamsnake

[klaus schilling]

"Krag" <scor...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>
> Tell me something. Are you actually a pupil of a gnostic school?

i'm a follower of the docetic-encratite schools like those
of Satornil, Severus, and Julius Cassianus.
Snakie and Moggers follow the libertine schools
like those of Carpocrates or Jacob Frank.

Klaus Schilling

[Krag]

klaus schilling wrote in message
<87bs0yq...@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>...

When you say 'follow', do u mean that you and mogin, snake, are initiates?
>
>Klaus Schilling