Last Week's Winner!
Buddy Boy
whatever ekankar is calling their meetings these days. What do you
see........"Behave correctly. Look the part. Talk the part. Make
sure the fascade is bulletproof."
See, the thing you die-hard eckists don't seem to understand is that by
being exposed to a greater truth here on a.r.e. you have ruined forever
your ability to take eckanakr with a straight face!
Nothing sadder than a cultist with a belly full of cultism and a head
full of the truth!
I feel for you, brother.
Ken
"Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
(You forgot to post my excellent reply!)
Heh. The funny thing is that you are half right.
I went thru that "look the part, act the part, behave and fit in" phase
when I was new to the path. I got over that before I ever found a.r.e.,
thank goodness. I was fortunate to have some good feedback from
my fellow Eckists on that issue. We used to laugh about it as a
matter of fact. I remember joking to a friend that I was going to be
"excommunicated" because I shared a rather unpopular opinion at a
local meeting. It was funny then too.
The "cultism" you see is all your own stuff coming to the surface.
You look at Eckankar and you see all of that crap, the lies and deceits
and the misunderstandings as outside of yourself but it's not really
there. It's not universal. It's certainly not mine. It's yours. It's still
inside with you.
It really is okay with me if you can't tolerate Harold or the ECK
teachings. Use what works for you. If the harsh criticism you seem
to love to lay on others is still helping you burn away the dross
within, keep at it 'till you can't find anything else to burn. Eventually
you will discover that it's all gone. Some day you will have nothing
left to do but embrace the emptiness, the clarity, that remains.
Buddy Boy
The following nail-on-the-head definition of cultism/eckankar is not my
"own stuff. It belongs to eckankar and its informed adherents. That
would be you Ken. You know something is very rotten in Denmark, yet you
stay and remain part of the problem. Uh, that would be *your* stuff.
LOL
"Cults promote a belief system which is utopian/idealistic, and also
dualistic and bi-polar in nature. Dualistic in that they see the world
in terms of two opposite poles, such as good versus evil, the saved and
the fallen, the enlightened and the ignorant, etc.
Cult belief systems are also bi-polar in psychological terms, rather
like Bi-polar disorder or manic-depression. Cults promote a vision of
an ideal 'new self', which members believe they can attain by following
the cult teachings. Cult belief systems encourage the aspirant to
identify with this imagined ideal new self, and then, from the
perspective of this new self, to see their old self as comparatively
inferior and flawed. It is ego-utopia or hubris for the new self, and
ego-dystonia
or shame for the old self.
Believers can experience a sort of religious mania of inspiration,
when they are in the hubris phase, identifying with this idealised
imaginary new self, with its perfect perception and understanding, etc.
They can become addicted to this hubris high (you getting this Cher?),
and become dependent on the group and its leadership to validate their
spiritual progress and to
maintain this inspiration.
There is often a sort of collective arrogance or hubris (you getting
this Curt Dude?) among established cult members. They see themselves as
part of an elite, and look down rather sniffily upon the mores and
values of established mainstream institutions.
If members fall out of favour, even temporarily, with the group
leadership, or if they begin to doubt if they can achieve the group's
ideals, they may experience a sort of religious depression or guilt,
over their seeming inability to free themselves from their 'old self',
with all its bad habits and weaknesses and lack of faith. This
depression reinforces their desire to return to the inspired state, and
can reinforce their addiction to the utopian vision of the cult belief
system, so there can be a feedback system going on too.
At an extreme, believers fear they will become ill or fall into hell if
they leave the group
All this goes on within a cult members mind. A cult does not control
its members by using external coercion. It is the belief system itself
which is the primary active agent in cult mind control. The actual
controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt
to discipline
their mind and reform their personality, in accordance with the tenets
of their new belief system. Effectively, a cult, via its belief system,
uses a person's own energy and aspirations against them.
Or, if you prefer, the late, great HST:
The [cult] business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side."--Hunter S. Thompson
Hey Ken. Bow Wow Wow.
curt_w
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/hunter_s_thompson.html
================================
Hey Fike, DUDE - "Or, if YOU prefer, the late, great HST:"
No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and
no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel
than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master.
[I AM THAT I AM THAT I AM THAT I AM THAT ....]
Hunter S. Thompson
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/hunter_s_thompson.html
------------------------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn [detractor].
hst
------------------------------------
Once again your bullshit only feeds the Roses of Eckankar. Deny that you
are the opposite of Eckankar. Positive energy or negative energy, Eckankar
exists because of YOU. Your exaggerated beliefs of cults has brought you
out, now do something with it, if you have the balls. Take On Eckankar, in
the open, away from this little internet connection. Others have and
failed, what is stopping you??
You are still my Buddy. : - )
JoeySays
ECKANKAR and ECKISTS.
Just a quick sampling of his diatribe...
cruel
shallow
plastic
pimps
dualistic
bi-polar
manic depressive
ego-utopia
hubris
religious mania
addictive
arrogance
All these lovely inspiring words to describe ECKANKAR and its members.
And he says....
<<< Cult belief systems encourage the aspirant to
identify with this imagined ideal new self, and then, from the
perspective of this new self, to see their old self as comparatively
inferior and flawed. It is ego-utopia or hubris for the new self, and
ego-dystonia
or shame for the old self. >>>
In reality isn't Bud boy himself demonstrating exactly what he is
attempting to describe? Hasn't he himself fallen into a cult mentality?
Aren't his descriptions, accusations, tone, and fervor a perfect
reflection of his own claims?
If there is a true cultist here, it would definitely be Buddy Boy given
his repeated outbursts. In this particular case, it is the anti-Eckankar
rhetoric that he's decided to hitch his foaming hatred and manic
depressive behavior.
No clearer example could be provided.
It would truly be a psychological evaluation to read and learn from.
Joey
curt_w
EVERY RELIGIOUS ORDER ON THE PLANET.
---------------------------------
"Cults promote a belief system which is:"
UTOPIAN/IDEALISTIC:
(John 3:16 KJV)
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
-------------------
(John 14:2-3)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive
you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (KJV)
===================
DUALISTIC:
(Romans 6:23 KJV)
(23) For the wages of sin {is} death; but the gift of God {is} eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---------------------
(Mark 16:15-17 KJV)
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs
shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
===================
BI-POLAR:
(2 Corinthians 5:17)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone,
the new has come!
----------------------
(John 6:47 KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting
life.
----------------------
(John 10:27-28 KJV)
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And
I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall
any {man} pluck them out of my hand.
---------------------------------
(John 4:14 KJV)
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never
thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of
water spring- ing up into everlasting life.
==================================
Well now Buddy Boy, I guess by these scriptures and your description of
'cults' it looks like Christianity IS a cult and the Bible the 'cultists'
handbook. I'm quite sure that there are scripture from all of the main
religious organizations with similar meanings equivilant to your 'cult'
description.
cher
himself in the head! This is what is known as ECK Speak in our
teachings, gary. ROTFLMAO........
Buddy Boy wrote:
<snip>
cher
deal with in people like gary fike. <chuckle> It leads no where except
by virture of getting attention. That's it in a nut shell. <pun
intended>
cher
LOL... Once upon a time I confronted david lane with the fact that he
created a cult of his own and that these cult members I called lanites
were running rampant on line in the true spirit of his teachings. He
lost it on me. <giggle> It doesn't change the reality of the thing from
a truth! <wink>
cher
LOL....
curt_w
Thanks,
Peace
Curt
Buddy Boy
things.
Perhaps a short rewriting of your post will help you to understand.
"Paul Twitchell, renowned plagiarist and religious con man, died of a
heart attack while screwing one of his young chelas in Cincinnati while
his wife was away on a camping trip with the next Lying Ek Master."
See? The blade always cuts both ways...
cher
do? I mean there is nothing left to say after one states "drunken gonzo
journalist shoots himself in the head while his estranged wife listens
on the phone in horror". So much for the rest of your colorful fantasy!
cher
Buddy Boy
but:
"Paul Twitchell, renowned plagiarist and religious con man, died of a
heart attack while screwing one of his young chelas in Cincinnati while
his wife was away on a camping trip with the next Lying Ek Master."
So much for the rest of your colorful religious fantasy!
LOL, weeeeeee! LOL
cher
gary fike! I'm not the least bit surprised either.
cher wrote:
>
> LOL..... if that's what you call great, well.... what good would arguing
> do? I mean there is nothing left to say after one states "drunken gonzo
> journalist shoots himself in the head while his estranged wife listens
> on the phone in horror". So much for the rest of your colorful fantasy!
>
> Buddy Boy wrote:
> >
> > He was a great journalist & author who said many interesting and true
> > things.
> >
> > Perhaps a short rewriting of your post will help you to understand.
> > "Paul Twitchell, renowned plagiarist and religious con man, died of a
> > heart attack while screwing one of his young chelas in Cincinnati while
> > his wife was away on a camping trip with the next Lying Ek Master."
@aloha.net Rich
"Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote
> As the blade cuts both ways then I guess there is nothing left to say
> but
...to repeat the detractor fantasy.
> "Paul Twitchell, renowned plagiarist
Paul Twitchell is not famous for plagiarism in any circle but that of
apostates and religious detractors. For that to be true he would have
needed to plagiarize way more than the pitance of less than 1% of his
works. http://makeashorterlink.com/?M19232678
> and religious con man,
Paul Twitchell did not con people. In fact he collected no wealth to
speak of in his lifetime. It is those that do not accept responsibility
for their own spiritual growth or lack of it, that feel victimized.
> died of a heart attack
Hooray for Gary! He at least got _one_ true fact in this.
> while screwing one of his young chelas in Cincinnati
That would make a great National Inquirer headline... and like that rag
is famous for, this prurient appeal has never been substantiated.
> while his wife was away on a camping trip with the next Lying Ek
> Master."
Gail was camping in California with girl friends of hers from college.
Darwin was in Idaho giving an introductory talk.
> So much for the rest of your colorful religious fantasy!
Gary's fantasy is much more colorful. It suits him well.
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cher
ugly lies about everybody but himself. :-/
@aloha.net Rich
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> Rich!!! It's good to see you! <smiling> Gary is still spreading
charlies
> ugly lies
Along with David P and David L as his sources for these allegations.
I prefer to rely on my own personal experiences along with those that
actually have first hand info; those that were involved or worked at the
office at the time: Patty Simpson, Marge klemp and Gail.
New tidbit - When Gail heard about Ford publishing this slanderous
nonsense about her, she quickly had her lawyer contact Ford...
I wonder if he'll do, or already has done some editing?
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> about everybody but himself. :-/
>
> Rich wrote:
> >
> > "Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> > > As the blade cuts both ways then I guess there is nothing left to
say
> > > but
> > ...to repeat the detractor fantasy.
> >
> > > "Paul Twitchell, renowned plagiarist
> >
> > Paul Twitchell is not famous for plagiarism in any circle but that
of
> > apostates and religious detractors. For that to be true he would
have
> > needed to plagiarize way more than the pittance of less than 1% of
surmaddream
about her, she quickly had her lawyer contact Ford...
******
Newer tidbit - I heard she and her lawers told him that it was true that
Paul made it all up. How could she support an Org. that has all but
removed and shredded her husband's works.
JoeySays
<<< I heard she and her lawers told him that it was true that
Paul made it all up. >>>
I heard (from Cobb County, GA school board) that evolution is merely a
theory and the world is probably only about 6000 yrs old. Now Surmmie, am
I supposed to believe that crap too?
The school board has actually ordered stickers to be placed on all biology
textbooks stating that evololution is "only a theory" and needs to "be
critically considered". The order was executed. Georgia also has the
nation's lowest SAT scores, three years running. Let me put that in
perspective. That would be behind Alambama, Arkansas, South Carolian,
Montana, etc, etc, etc.
Believing in erroneus information just because your "guru" David Lane once
uttered it too, doesn't make it true.
Joey
cher
>
> "cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
> > Rich!!! It's good to see you! <smiling> Gary is still spreading
> charlies
> > ugly lies
>
> Along with David P and David L as his sources for these allegations.
Yes... the three of these guys have spread more lies then any
fundamentalist group could hope for. :-/
> I prefer to rely on my own personal experiences along with those that
> actually have first hand info; those that were involved or worked at the
> office at the time: Patty Simpson, Marge klemp and Gail.
I agree. Marge doesn't mince words, either. She may not speak them, but
the impressions are clear. <smiling> Such a mighty lady in such a little
package! <beaming>
> New tidbit - When Gail heard about Ford publishing this slanderous
> nonsense about her, she quickly had her lawyer contact Ford...
>
> I wonder if he'll do, or already has done some editing?
Woah!!!!! And there's no web page signing ford's mighty legal intentions
on this one? Ford was contacted by a lawyer and not a word from his
little albert in defense?? She must mean business and he must realize
he's lost before he started then! Oh this is amazing!!! I hope ford
folds and gives up the gossips that he culled this garbage from! I can't
wait to see charlie and david p double talking their way out of this
one! <shaking her head>
You know, at the very least ford would need to publish an apology on his
web site for these slanderous libelous rumors he's feeding. That's the
least that I'd demand from him! <sigh>
cher
me of joe o'leary lately. Maybe it was your nose on dave's ass that gave
it away? <smile>
Buddy Boy
http://www.geocities.com/eckcu?lt/photos/twitch2.html
When's the last time a man looked at you like that? Have you forgotten
what that look means? LOL There's not a red-blooded person looking at
that photo who doesn't know exactly what's on Paul's mind (the little
mind!) Hey, I don't blame Paul I wouldn't have kicked her out of my bed
unless there was more room on the floor! LOL! Of course, being the
extreme narcissist he was Paul couldn't even restrain himself in front
of Frederick, Anya's soon to be ex-husband.
So, you & Rich keep up your failed task here of turning the pig's ear
of eckankar into a silk purse. Your shoulders and asses are just the
right size to keep the wheel of divine Providence turning....turn on!
cher
even provide a workable url. <sigh> The photo is dark and black and
white and there's no means of telling what it is that Paul is looking at
in this instance. It's obvious that the woman is interested in the
camera, but you cannot say conclusively that Paul is even looking at
Anya. He seems to me to be in reflection in this image. You asked,
that's my opinion.
And for the record, gary... that does't look like lust on Paul's face as
far as I'm concerned. I don't know where you get this stuff from,
gary.... but it does stand to prove what alcohol has done to your brain!
tsk.... all that dead tissue.
observer part II
clarifying where Darwin was during Sri Paul's death and where Gail was
during this time as well.
People often expect their Spiritual Leaders to be perfect as human
beings, "A machinelike being without the traits of humanity" (Child in
the Wilderness page 161) when ideally a higher perfection and
Mastership as Soul is the ideal for some.
Anya Foos-Graber's book deathing, An Intelligent Alternative for the
Final Moments of Life describes her experience with what I've assumed
was Sri Paul, in her book's introduction pages 19-20. (the "renowned
and skillful yogi" who died in her presence is not identified)
This does not necessarily mean that she was there romantically but does
seem to point pretty strongly that she was there helping and supporting
him as he went through the final moments of his physical life.
Buddy Boy:
> died of a heart attack
Rich:
Hooray for Gary! He at least got _one_ true fact in this.
Buddy Boy:
> while screwing one of his young chelas in Cincinnati
Rich:
That would make a great National Inquirer headline... and like that
rag
is famous for, this prurient appeal has never been substantiated.
Buddy Boy:
> while his wife was away on a camping trip with the next Lying Ek
> Master."
Rich:
cher
refers to Paul Twitchell on pages 12, 22, 24, 250-255, 258. Looks like
she touches on several traditions here. Might be in interesting read. I
highly doubt that she would've done much when Paul passed other than
call for an ambulance. It's not like Paul needed her help to leave the
body. <smile>
JoeySays
<<< Anya Foos-Graber's book deathing, An Intelligent Alternative for
the
Final Moments of Life describes her experience with what I've assumed
was Sri Paul, in her book's introduction pages 19-20. (the "renowned
and skillful yogi" who died in her presence is not identified) >>>
Hmmmm...that's an interesting book you've managed to come by,
Jack/Melinda. I take it that you're intimately familiar with all Paul
Twitchell's writings as well since you're obviously interested in his
passing.
Am I assuming too much?
Joey
Buddy Boy
posting messages to himself??) you can believe whatever it is that
keeps the voices of doubt quiet so that you can be a "good ekkie". All
I know is that one picture tells a thousand words...take a look men.
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/photos/twitch2.html
So here's Paul oogling Anya while her husband sits by. Four months
later Paul is found dead in his room late at night with Anya being the
only one present. Observer, did you just fall off the turnip truck or
have you been to town once or twice? LOL
Why don't you read what Louis Bluth had to say about Paul's passing or
are you a complete victim of history revisionism as well as a victim of
denial and delusion? Don't know who Dr. Louis Bluth is? Now that
wouldn't surprise me a bit after all the covering up Harold and his
minions have done. Louis Bluth was the one Paul would have had as his
successor, but there were three problems. One, Paul stroked out long
before he was ready to go. Good god, he was just starting to make money
for once in his life! Two, Louis was elderly and married. Three, Gail
had her eye (and apparently the rest of her body) on the next Lying Ek
Massa, one Darwin Gross. You do know his story, right?? LOL
Take it from one who was there....
Buddy Boy
observer part II
clarity as much as I could.
I do not see "oogling" as you indicate in your post. In fact, her
husband, seems to have the same expression on his face just like Sri
Paul.
But you have missed my point. A Living male Master is still a man in a
physical body. He is still a human being with all the traits of a male
human being. However, it is Sri Paul's development and mastery as Soul
that matters, to me, not some impossible standard of perfect behavior
that people seem to need when dealing with spiritual Masters. Most of
this need, this need for an impossible standard of perfect behavior
from spiritual leaders is a carry over from people's birth religions,
imho. I don't buy into all that, whatsoever.
Fact is, Anya is a beautiful woman. A beautiful, young woman in this
photo. I'm frankly surprised that ANY heterosexual male looking upon
her would not be thinking about sexuality at some point or another,
even a male spiritual Master. And if Sri Paul was thinking that way
when this photo was taken? Couldn't care less. It's a normal thought
from a male human being.
You seem way too uptight about sexuality. It's normal for heterosexual
men to be attracted to beautiful, young women. Lighten up!
Buddy Boy:
All I know is that one picture tells a thousand words...take a look
men.
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/photos/twitch2.html
cher
moment next time this guy starts talking about spirituality. It's a true
lark when you look at the two gary's side by side. <smile> Are you sure
that's lust on Paul's face, gary? I see a young lady clearly posing for
the camera, but her husband is starring off to his upper right and Paul
and looking down to his lower left. It appears that Fred and Paul were
in conversation and Anya saw a camera! gary... zip up your pants and get
with the program, this isn't a binary group! <shrug>
By the way... bluth isn't mentioned anywhere but david lane's texts.
Interesting that you'd bring this up. LOL... I guess observer II will
have to read david's book to realize the depth of gossip he tapped into
in order to make that small amount of work someone else handed him into
a book. <chuckle> Any rumor will do where david is concerned.
cher
again? <smile>
Buddy Boy wrote:
>
> YES!
cher
presenting it. LOL.... Actually the idealisms that are often seen on
this group do come via the people who strive to follow eastern paths
they're not prepared for. They take the stories and myths to heart and
then project them onto others via unrealistic expectations. A long
reading session with Joseph Campbell would do them well, but they don't
generally read anything but each others stories and david lane.
@aloha.net Rich
"observer part II" <melind...@yahoo.com> wrote
> This was an interesting exchange for many reasons. Thanks Rich for
> clarifying where Darwin was during Sri Paul's death and where Gail was
> during this time as well.
>
> People often expect their Spiritual Leaders to be perfect as human
> beings,
True, and much to their disappointment, it *never* turns out that way.
> "A machinelike being without the traits of humanity" (Child in
> the Wilderness page 161) when ideally a higher perfection and
> Mastership as Soul is the ideal for some.
>
> Anya Foos-Graber's book deathing, An Intelligent Alternative for the
> Final Moments of Life describes her experience with what I've assumed
> was Sri Paul, in her book's introduction pages 19-20. (the "renowned
> and skillful yogi" who died in her presence is not identified)
I remember reading something she wrote(can't remember where), that she
went to Paul's room, he opened the door and collapsed. Was that in this
book? If so, could you share the quote? I have another book of hers
called "One Soul, Rising" but it's not in there.
> This does not necessarily mean that she was there romantically
Here's what Doug Marmon shared several months ago:
"I've now also heard from the second person who recently spoke with Anya
Foos, and she told both of them that she never had sex with Paul. None
of that was true."
> but does
> seem to point pretty strongly that she was there helping and
supporting
> him as he went through the final moments of his physical life.
Fred Foos told me that he was there giving CPR to Paul all the way to
the hospital.
` o
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Buddy Boy:
JoeySays
today...
You say....
<<< Well, Observer II (not the infamous Nat the Observer who got
caught
posting messages to himself??) you can believe whatever it is that
keeps the voices of doubt quiet so that you can be a "good ekkie". All
I know is that one picture tells a thousand words...take a look men.
>>>
Fike, it's jerks like you who give men in general a bad name. Two people
sitting in the same room...neither one looking at each other and you say
"take a look men".
Here Gary Fike...I'll give you something you can really chew on....
Last night I had a late night dinner with a former Solid Gold Dancer,
former Playboy Bunny and former Ms Universe. We looked into each other's
eyes all evening. We laughed. We shared stories.
At the end of the evening I walked her to her car, gave her a hug, and
went home...alone. Have done the same thing with her dozens of times
before. Today I had a late lunch with a gorgeous college professor. We
told jokes, browsed a bookstore, laughed...and at the end of the day we
hugged, and went our separate ways.
Tonight I'll have a wonderful conversation with a woman I love. We'll
talk, we'll laugh and....
Good communication, warm hearted relationships, and deep lasting loving
friendships don't always have a sexual aspect to them. Not physically,
not emotionally, not even mentally.
Perhaps someday you'll grow up. I'm not going to hold my breath but I
guess anything is possible.
Joey
@aloha.net Rich
Rosicrucian's and failed.
Nor was he the first Eckankar initiate to try and lay claim to Eckankar
and then turn into an apostate.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L20F41678
"At the time of his death, Dr. Louis Bluth, one-time President of
Eckankar, reported seeing Twitchell's soul carried out in a celestial
cloud of light. Yet, he later changed his story, claiming instead that
Twitchell had disobeyed the orders of the Vairagi Masters and was
carried away in chains." - David Lane
"Bluth reported that Paul was escorted in the company of the ECK
Masters, at the moment when Paul died. Years after he left ECKANKAR,
Bluth reports that Paul was led down by the Kal forces."
<snip>
"Millie Moore told me personally that Bluth thought Gail was a dumb
female and thought he could push her into announcing him as the Living
ECK Master. Millie said Bluth was none too subtle about his thoughts
that he should be the chosen one." - Doug Marman
I recall that Doc Bluth then left Eckankar and took a few chelas with
him. I never heard of him again as any kind master or leader, but David
Lane dug him up somehow in 1980 to get his 'apostate letter'. I imagine
he's long dead now.
The thing that Doc and _nobody_ knew when Paul translated was that he
had written about the new ECK Master sometime before he went off to
Cincinnati for the seminar.
When Gail returned home from camping with her college friends, she found
the note on her door to call Patty. She flew to Cincinnati and the next
few days must have been a daze. When things settled down she discovered
the info on Darwin was sitting in Paul's typewriter where he left it.
observer part II
Anya Foos-Graber's book deathing, An Intelligent Alternative for the
Final Moments of Life describes her experience with what I've assumed
was Sri Paul, in her book's introduction pages 19-20. (the "renowned
and skillful yogi" who died in her presence is not identified)
Cher wrote:
You know what they say about people who assume... <smile> She
apparently
refers to Paul Twitchell on pages 12, 22, 24, 250-255, 258. Looks like
she touches on several traditions here. Might be in interesting read.
I highly doubt that she would've done much when Paul passed other than
call for an ambulance. It's not like Paul needed her help to leave the
body. <smile>
--------------------------
Anya indicates in the book that her attempts to be helpful were clumsy.
"I was clumsy in my ignorance and inexperience."
observer part II
I remember reading something she wrote(can't remember where), that she
went to Paul's room, he opened the door and collapsed. Was that in
this
book? If so, could you share the quote? I have another book of hers
called "One Soul, Rising" but it's not in there.
--------------------
Anya indicates that the "Great Yogi" died in her presence and that he
died of a massive coronary.
Rich wrote:
Fred Foos told me that he was there giving CPR to Paul all the way to
the hospital.
--------------
Anya indicated that even in dying, he taught her and that:
"Slowly he performed what I now call deathing; as he did so, the
connection I had always felt with him winked out. Gone, it was like the
ceasing of a song, and its absence made clear what his presence had
meant. But in its place was a radiant afterglow that permeated the
room."
This is in harmony with Sri Harold's account in his book, The Golden
Heart, which indicated that Sri Paul had translated in his hotel room:
"...he excused himself and took his sandwich up to his room. A little
while later, according to the physician's report, Paul translated from
a heart attack."
"One of the Eckists watched the stretcher as it went past. He could not
believe that a human body could have gotten so worn out."
Patti Simpson in her book, Paulji, indicated that usually either she,
or Helen Baird or Gail or all three would accompany him to seminars.
This time, none of these three accompanied him. Patti does indicate
that one Eckist did accompany Sri Paul but does not mention this Eckist
by name or give any indication of gender etc.
Regardless, it's clear to me that Anya was with Sri Paul when he
translated. I doubt very much she was there romantically but remain
convinced that she was with him when he translated.
observer part II
Paul at all. However, the paperback which came out five years later
does indeed mention Sri Paul as you've indicated. The first edition,
hardcover, is 111 pages long. The Paperback, is about 430 pages in
length.
cher
Well unless or until you post the material here for all to see I'll have
to take your word for it! I certainly won't be rushing out to buy the
book. <wink> If you have the book perhaps you can check out the pages I
shared above and see what she says relating to Paul? Or are you just
passing along what you heard from others?
cher
> --------------
>
> Anya indicated that even in dying, he taught her and that:
>
> "Slowly he performed what I now call deathing; as he did so, the
> connection I had always felt with him winked out. Gone, it was like the
> ceasing of a song, and its absence made clear what his presence had
> meant. But in its place was a radiant afterglow that permeated the
> room."
>
I've seen this quote offered many times, but I've never seen it
attributed. Is it possible to offer the name of the publication this
comes from, the page number and edition? At least a url? Or the source?
It's odd that she (if this is her quote) would relate this in this
manner. Soul is after all eternal. There were people who gave accounts
at this event that did pick up on Paul within, and rushed to his aide.
cher
the introduction of the first edition? Interesting. Perhaps the
references to Paul in the later edition relate to the addition of
spiritual terminology then? She does list many ECK words in the index. I
didn't check to see if these correlated with one another.
Buddy Boy
> actually have first hand info; those that were involved or worked at
the
> office at the time: Patty Simpson, Marge klemp and Gail.
I have 1st-hand knowledge. Patti and Gail were friends of mine. You can
take what I say about eckankar to the bank.
I agree. Marge doesn't mince words, either. She may not speak them, but
the impressions are clear. <smiling> Such a mighty lady in such a
little
package! <beaming>
Gee, did Marge mince words when her Lord & Master Harold was boffing
his current wife while he was still married to Marge? I would think
anybody with a smidgen of self-respect would have removed themselves
from this sick little love triangle. This is your heroine? Figures.
cher
>
> > > I prefer to rely on my own personal experiences along with those that
> > > actually have first hand info; those that were involved or worked at
> > the
> > > office at the time: Patty Simpson, Marge klemp and Gail.
>
> I have 1st-hand knowledge. Patti and Gail were friends of mine. You can
> take what I say about eckankar to the bank.
Good heavens no! You're unbalanced and obviously suffering from mental
aberrations! You can't be a reliable source of anything but the rage
that's eating your heart and circulatory system. Oh.... and no one here
believes you have any friends gary! You're too hostile for friends.
> > I agree. Marge doesn't mince words, either. She may not speak them, but
> > the impressions are clear. <smiling> Such a mighty lady in such a
> > little package! <beaming>
>
> Gee, did Marge mince words when her Lord & Master Harold was boffing
> his current wife while he was still married to Marge? I would think
> anybody with a smidgen of self-respect would have removed themselves
> from this sick little love triangle. This is your heroine? Figures.
Moralistic bombastic duplicity is your trademark! Archie Bunker couldn't
do it better. <smile>
And as usual, you think that striking at someone will bring about a
sense of anger and hatred in me? Of course you have an opinion. Of
course it's ugly and twisted and from the gutter. That's to be expected
from you gary! You're mentally aberrated... unbalanced in your dry drunk
stage.
Ken
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote ...
Hi Rich, welcome back.
This is one of the more interesting things I've read about these events. I
hadn't heard about the letter in Paul's typewriter before. Do you know any
more about it and can you tell us where you heard this?
Thanks.
@aloha.net Rich
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"observer part II" <melind...@yahoo.com> wrote
@aloha.net Rich
"Ken" <kah...@att.not> wrote in message
news:Cld5e.534975$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I don't know any more Ken. It was a tidbit that came to me through some
8th initiates that are still in touch with Gail.
observer part II
Well unless or until you post the material here for all to see I'll
have
to take your word for it! I certainly won't be rushing out to buy the
book. <wink> If you have the book perhaps you can check out the pages I
shared above and see what she says relating to Paul? Or are you just
passing along what you heard from others?
---------------------------
Only what is in the book, the first edition. No passing along from
people. Just books. Don't own the the paperback. There is some info
over at Amazon on the paperback like the index you posted but not much
else. The pages are what indicated previously, pages 19-20. It's a very
good book and it's one more reason why I personally feel Sri Paul had
her (Anya Foos) present at his translation. Don't have a scanner and
it's a bit much to type all of it given the schedule here.
observer part II
conversed on previously. Here is a cut and paste:
> Anya Foos-Graber's book deathing, An Intelligent Alternative for the
> Final Moments of Life (first printing, 1984) describes her experience
with what I've assumed
> was Sri Paul, in her book's introduction pages 19-20. (the "renowned
> and skillful yogi" who died in her presence is not identified)
observer part II wrote:
> Anya indicated that even in dying, he taught her and that:
> "Slowly he performed what I now call deathing; as he did so, the
> connection I had always felt with him winked out. Gone, it was like
the
> ceasing of a song, and its absence made clear what his presence had
> meant. But in its place was a radiant afterglow that permeated the
> room."
Cher wrote:
I've seen this quote offered many times, but I've never seen it
attributed. Is it possible to offer the name of the publication this
comes from, the page number and edition? At least a url? Or the source?
It's odd that she (if this is her quote) would relate this in this
manner. Soul is after all eternal. There were people who gave accounts
at this event that did pick up on Paul within, and rushed to his aide.
___________________
Observer Part II
imho, she relates in this matter when Sri Paul translated because she
was right there when the translation occured. It was not necessary for
her to pick this up on the inner and rush to his aide. Anya was right
there, already giving aide, chanting with him, and whatever else she
could to be of some help as he left his physical body for the last
time.
Buddy Boy
eckankar look flawless. If eckankar was all that why didn't Gail stick
around? Please. Yeah, give her me email address. Let me ask her some
questions...
Buddy Boy
just has a way of popping up in spite of the fanatics best attempts to
squelch it. Read on for the plausible explanation of what a woman other
than Paul's wife was doing in his room at 1:00 in the morning. Hey,
have you ever heard of Nelson Rockefeller? LOL It happens in the best
of families...
(**) about Twitchell's death in my email:
[person1->]
"Concerning the personal stuff on Twitchell, it is a bit lurid.
"I was informed on a number of occasions by Ed Pecen and Dr. Louis
Bluth about what happened with Twitchell the nite he died. He was
with another woman (I know her name--she even did a tape, which Pecen
has, describing what happened); apparently Twitchell died during or
after having sex with the alleged woman. Apparently there was also a
number of sexual aids/pornographic materials in the room also--which
Bluth and Pecen cleaned up when they discovered the body.
"It was difficult for Eckankar to explain why another woman, not Gail,
was with Twitchell when he died. The official story is that she wanted
to be with a master when he translated (of course, Eckankar didn't say
that she also wanted to sleep with him before he died).
"There was also some reports about Gail's relationship with Darwin
before Twitchell's death, which Pecen went into some detail about.
Paul Twitchell also apparently had a few encounters with Eckists
(women)
"I have a lot more detail about this, but I would have to go to my
previous stored files [...]"
Btw, you probably don't want to use a psuedo here. It makes the natives
restless and angry. LOL
sean
aloha
sean
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
news:d349m...@news4.newsguy.com...
observer part II
Eckists here will desire to show that Foos was nowhere near Sri Paul's
room, or if so, only as part of a large, diverse group to avoid any
possibility of the perception of "immoral" behavior on the part of
their spiritual Master. People who dislike the Light and Sound Path,
Eckankar, on the other hand, will try so hard to prove that this was
just an immoral act to discredit the Path altogether. But I didn't have
any of these agenda's. It did not matter where the truth took me. .
I've gotten some insights on this issue which will not be shared. Sri
Paul was not having an affair. This was not a sexual thing. But even if
it was a sexual thing, wouldn't make one bit of difference for my love
for Sri Paul as a Master, Guide and Teacher.
You seem so uptight about sexuality. So wrapped up in National Enquirer
like glee even for what occured with Governor Rockefeller. So motivated
and controlled by shame and fear. Shame and fear can hold people back
spiritually.
Buddy Boy:
Ken
"Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
Compared to your unsubstantiated "ugh" stories to make
Eckankar look bad? It's certainly at least as reliable as those
are. If you were even half honest you'd admit that.
cher
gary! You didn't keep in touch then? You need an ECKist to network now?
<grinning> My guess is that most people would flinch and recoil at the
thought of being contacted by you. ;-D
cher
Okay..... thank you! <smile>
cher
>
> Cher, the book has been identified many times, even in posts we've
> conversed on previously. Here is a cut and paste:
Generally when quotes are posted, they include the source along with the
quote so as to give attribution to the author. That's what I was curious
about.... that the quote wasn't specifically attritubed to this author
in this particular book.
From what you presented here.... we're not certain this is Paul she's
talking about. She did refer to this being as a yogi, after all. Maybe
she clarifies this in her later work? I'm not trying to be picky here,
but I'm more interested in facts then romanticized stories or gossip.
Unfortunately all we seem to get are these two features of story
telling. No offense meant. I can see from what you share here that this
story has a great meaning to you personally. I'm just seeking specific
facts.
cher
Why on earth do you hang onto this gossip swearing it's the only
plausible answer, gary? Is it your lack of character to buy into these
stories? Something about detractors and the national enquirer? :-/
pecen and bluth came up with these rumors after Paul died.... and bluth
discovered he wasn't stepping into Paul's shoes.
I'd say your gossip is as plausible as that about terri schiavo being
beaten by her husband. It rates the same on the bullshit scale,
actually. An indication of where your state of consciousness is at. Out
of context quotes with no attribution to author. <sigh> Yeah...let's all
rally around that! NOT!!!
cher
So much for critical thinking once again, hey? <shrug> I guess gary was
absent the day they covered this chapter? <smile>
cher
not. Apparently she didn't know CPR. That's what was needed in that
moment. The sex lies and videotape are just the game that detractors
play here thanks to david lane. Apparently he dug up this gossip and
tried to pass it off as academic. <shrug> So the idea that people are
trying to seperate Anya from being there as an agenda is wholely unfair
as an assumption. There simply is no evidence thus far to support that
she was there or not. There are the stories after the fact, but as you
can see... Anya's is right there along side the stories that were told
by pecen and bluth and retold by wallace and david p. and eventually
david lane. So this is what the problem is... how do you establish what
actually took place? It's a matter of learning that if one persons
recollections can be called into question, then so can all others
recollections. The problem is that there's no way to show this in an
objective manner, only subjective. Even the quote you chose to share...
you had to admit that you assumed from reading it that she implied this
meant Paul. That's the same space that rumors start from. We all chose
the version that fits our consciousness, but it's a choice that fits our
consciouness period. There's no way to convince others of that! So it's
back to seeking specific facts.
observer part II
>From what you presented here.... we're not certain this is Paul she's
talking about. She did refer to this being as a yogi, after all. Maybe
she clarifies this in her later work? I'm not trying to be picky here,
but I'm more interested in facts then romanticized stories or gossip.
Unfortunately all we seem to get are these two features of story
telling. No offense meant. I can see from what you share here that this
story has a great meaning to you personally. I'm just seeking specific
facts.
___________________________________________________________
Books and photos and people's memories are often imperfect and often
"clouded" by their personal issues and agendas. Each of us individually
at some point would have to decide what is truth beyond the realm of
imperfect sources as those indicated earlier.
If this situation that was brought up by others has any interest for me
at all, it's within the reality that each of us will one day have our
physical bodies die.
There are so many questions that the inevitable reality of the death of
our physical bodies can bring up. One aspect in this regard, that
peeked my interest in training in the Light and Sound in the first
place, was the possibility of lessening or eliminating our fear of
death by learning who we really are, Soul.
And a truly awakened being will often know when it is time for their
physical body to die. This can make the questions and training spoken
of earlier all the more intriguing and even urgent.
I won't belabor this topic further and respond to Buddy Boy anymore.
cher
>
> Cher wrote:
>
> >From what you presented here.... we're not certain this is Paul she's
> talking about. She did refer to this being as a yogi, after all. Maybe
> she clarifies this in her later work? I'm not trying to be picky here,
> but I'm more interested in facts then romanticized stories or gossip.
> Unfortunately all we seem to get are these two features of story
> telling. No offense meant. I can see from what you share here that this
>
> story has a great meaning to you personally. I'm just seeking specific
> facts.
>
> ___________________________________________________________
>
> Books and photos and people's memories are often imperfect and often
> "clouded" by their personal issues and agendas. Each of us individually
> at some point would have to decide what is truth beyond the realm of
> imperfect sources as those indicated earlier.
Actually there are methods of establishing something via evidence. But
as often we're told that the detractors offer us the "truth" through
such accounts, learning to look for such evidence helps. That's all.
> If this situation that was brought up by others has any interest for me
> at all, it's within the reality that each of us will one day have our
> physical bodies die.
>
> There are so many questions that the inevitable reality of the death of
> our physical bodies can bring up. One aspect in this regard, that
> peeked my interest in training in the Light and Sound in the first
> place, was the possibility of lessening or eliminating our fear of
> death by learning who we really are, Soul.
>
> And a truly awakened being will often know when it is time for their
> physical body to die. This can make the questions and training spoken
> of earlier all the more intriguing and even urgent.
I agree. What I discovered working in various medical situations over
the years... is that the definition of "truly awakened" shifted for me.
That was part of what lead me to seek this path. Life is filled with
such wonders as this. Soul to Soul, we share so much along the way.
<smile>
> I won't belabor this topic further and respond to Buddy Boy anymore.
belabor away! <smile> Lovely thoughts are always welcome. Gary Fike is
just one of those beings who needs to attack people in order to feel
alive. So long as you don't take him to heart, he has no effect...
<smile>
Buddy Boy
against "lack of objective proof" in the case of Paul's death-producing
peccadillos but are clueless to the ultimate irony that there is not
one smidgen, not one iota, not one scrap of objective evidence for the
existence of "vairagi masters", rebazar tarzs, sudar singh, Paul's many
outlandish biograpical claims (including being a pearl diver!), or,
most troubling of all, Harold's self-promoted "mastership". It's ALL
smoke and mirrors. You are self-hypnotized to block out all info. that
clashes with your rigid eckkie belief system. Nothing in eckankar adds
up and you can't stand that because you are too invested emotionally,
so you simply ignore the mountain of evidence that eckankar was founded
and promoted through deceit and misrepsentation. So, you weave
basket-fantasies as needed to shore up what are repressed doubts about
your chosen path.
I guess this is fine if you don't want to live a well-examined life.
You end up like Cher, daily acting out her pain and rage in this public
forum, besmirching not only eckankar and eckists but contradicting all
spiritual fundamentals.
I guess I'm still astounded this is not as apparent as the nose on
every eckists' face.
Oh, btw. I blew oatmeal out my nose when I read you think I'm sexually
repressed! There's many a fine young lady eckists (former) that would
beg to differ with you. See, I could care less where Paul played hide
the weiner, AS LONG AS we are respected enough to get the true story,
not some cover-up bullshit designed to protect the eck, org status quo,
i.e. INCOME
cher
the autopsy results. <smiling>
sean
"Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112981961....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Oh, btw. I blew oatmeal out my nose when I read you think I'm sexually
> repressed!
This is another example of WHY anyone wouldn;t bother with any "facts" you'd
like to offer Gary.
What OB2 said was: "You seem so uptight about sexuality."
That is NOT the same thing as saying you are sexually repressed, but as
usual you get A and re-label it B, and then cry foul when people do not
accept your inaccurate facts and half-baked opinions based on those
inaccurate facts.
Your judgement that OB2 "thinks that you are sexually repressed" is
completely wrong, and it is clear where you have not been able to read the
words, or the intention behind them, that were written.
Hey, maybe your opinion and judgement about many other people and written
texts is just as WRONG because of the same reason. You can't read properly,
and jump to false conclusions?
cher
>
> "Buddy Boy" <bud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1112981961....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Oh, btw. I blew oatmeal out my nose when I read you think I'm sexually
> > repressed!
>
> This is another example of WHY anyone wouldn;t bother with any "facts" you'd
> like to offer Gary.
>
> What OB2 said was: "You seem so uptight about sexuality."
>
> That is NOT the same thing as saying you are sexually repressed, but as
> usual you get A and re-label it B, and then cry foul when people do not
> accept your inaccurate facts and half-baked opinions based on those
> inaccurate facts.
>
> Your judgement that OB2 "thinks that you are sexually repressed" is
> completely wrong, and it is clear where you have not been able to read the
> words, or the intention behind them, that were written.
>
> Hey, maybe your opinion and judgement about many other people and written
> texts is just as WRONG because of the same reason. You can't read properly,
> and jump to false conclusions?
Now Sean, if you point this out too often he might actually figure out
what you're talking about and then we wouldn't have this handy dandy
road map to gary fike to read right in front of us everyday. <grin>
sean
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4256FA67...@worldnet.att.net...
The Grand Canyon used to be a plain you know. :-)
Maybe he could benefit from a third person look at my response to garland
about initiations, which is basically the very same thing. Now everyone
misinreprets stuff, whether it's a newsgroup post, or someone's sacred texts
.......... and everyone jumps to false conclsuions and makes assumptions in
life for such are the nature of our beliefs.
That's why it;s good to discuss things with others reasonably and to listen
to others pov and share a little. Of course, there are other options too,
and we see a lot of it here from time to time. Hey I'm as human as the next
gorilla. <smile>
JoeySays
<<< Oh, btw. I blew oatmeal out my nose when I read you think I'm
sexually
> repressed! >>>
Buddy, just because oatmeal flakes are bigger than the usual cocaine
crystals, it doesn't mean you should blow them out your nose.
You obviously have a dependency problem. I'm just airing out some
possibilites.
Puffed oats might have better staying and sticking power you know?
Joey
observer part II
Many people, myself included at times, have had perceptions of what a
spiritual Master would be like and how they might act. In doing so, we
can often forget that these are still human beings with all the traits
of human beings in physical bodies despite their highly developed
spiritual powers as Soul.
On the topic of relationships, some people feel that spiritual beings
in the physical would never marry, or that they would be celibate.
Others might say that marriage is fine, but divorce is unacceptable and
certainly being single, and having consensual sex is out of the
question if one is a "true" spiritual Master.
While it's possible for someone such as myself to respect and tolerate
these viewpoints despite what I might categorize rightly or wrongly as
"uptight", it is much more difficult to get others to understand better
another point of view that it is one's developement and greater
perfection as Soul that can be equally important to people as much as
only "morals" are to others that gets spoken of here so often.
But if one's agenda is only to discredit using morality as the focal
point, they will see and hear only what they want to see and hear.
Therefore, this mind set or consciousness attempts to exploit a
harmless picture as "oogling" and the death of an older man who had
been severely, critically poisoned only a year or less earlier as some
sort of sordid sexual drama.
Thanks for clarifying my comments and for setting things straight.
cher
LOL.... I know.... they just blow off whatever doesn't fit their agenda.
<sigh> It gets old so quickly.
@aloha.net Rich
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote
> I remember reading something she wrote(can't remember where), that she
> went to Paul's room, he opened the door and collapsed.
Does anyone know where this quote from Anya can be found?
JerryC
called "the difficulty of becoming an eck master" It was blue book and had
an account of Paul's last evening including a tirade by Paul on the dangers
of the meditation groups infiltrating the usa. his perspective was that they
were too passive for the usa pace. He evidently saw that passivity as a
great danger. The book was a mostly based on a cassette recording of much
of that evening. I don't know if the book is still out there but I might
have one somewhere.
JerryC
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
news:d39qb...@news3.newsguy.com...
@aloha.net Rich
"JerryC" <Jer...@adelphia.net> wrote
> I have a bad memory but I think that I read something similar in a
book
> called "the difficulty of becoming an eck master"
That's it. Thanks Jerry! There were several sources for that book.
The particular quote I was thinking of wasn't Anya, but actually came
from the Oct-Nov-Dec 1971 Mystic World. The article was attributed.
Here is the excerpt:
Paulji Translates
"Paulji, the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master, translated from his
physical body at approximately 1:00 a.m. on Friday, September 17, 1971
in his hotel room in Cincinnati, Ohio. He had gone to attend the
ECKANKAR Cincinnati Seminar.
"Paulji arrived in Cincinnati Thursday afternoon in good spirits. He
shared a light supper with some Higher Initiates and later joined a
large group of them at a table in the coffee shop. Late that evening he
summoned several to his room for a business meeting. A short time after
they had departed one of the Fifth Initiates felt a sharp call on the
inner to go to him. She hastened there, he opened the door, greeted her
and collapsed. The official cause of death was a heart attack."
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It was blue book and had
Buddy Boy
doctor. So we are to believe the oh, so objective Mystic World over Ed
Pecan and Dr. Louis Bluth? I don't think so....look at the photo Rich.
Paul had it bad for Anya and I think you know it.
@aloha.net Rich
>
> "JerryC" <Jer...@adelphia.net> wrote
>
> > I have a bad memory but I think that I read something similar in a
> book
> > called "the difficulty of becoming an eck master"
>
> That's it. Thanks Jerry! There were several sources for that book.
> The particular quote I was thinking of wasn't Anya, but actually came
> from the Oct-Nov-Dec 1971 Mystic World. The article was attributed.
Opps... UNattributed.
gruendemann
seem to place a great deal of faith in their so called accounts. Is it
because these men have some specific meaning to you or is it because
they apparently said what you most wanted to hear? See... spin can go in
any direction gary. You're the son of failed politican, so you most
assurdly know that much!