Initiate Reports, Initiations, Secret Files, and Computers
Tom Leafeater
each should follow the discipline of writing an initiate report every month
addressing one's spiritual growth for that month. Just think, that represents
tens of thousands of initate reports a month. If someone spent two minutes
reading each report, it would amount to 30 reports an hour, or 240 in an eight
hour day. If the org has five people reading them, 1,200 reports a day could be
read. In a typical month, perhaps 25,000 could be read. Now, since the org uses
informaton from these in its publishing efforts, a lot of filing of the reports
must occur. So we know a filing system of the reports exists. From the files,
only a percentage ends up in one of Klemp's books. Now since a filing system
exists, why not make files of other things found in the reports? Say, doubts,
disagreements or criticism about the org. That would come in handy if someone
steps out of line. Maybe, with all of the criticism that abounds today of
eckankar, the org would want to sideline certain critical members from
organizational advancement, say, with initiations. Do you think Doug Kunin,
eckankar's legal counsel, would not see the value in certain statements made in
initiate reports if they were ever needed in litigation? Remember Mick's post a
few months ago stating that content from his initiate reports were referred to
by well placed org members in his conversations with them?
I remember a friend in eckankar who had tried an experiment. He had not
recieved his next initiation as rapidly as he would have liked. I had asked him
about his initiate reports, how often he wrote them, and whether he sent them
in or not. He said only occasionally did he write them, and often they were
full of his doubts and criticisms of the org, since he had been going through a
long period of questioning eckankar's validity. My question sparked an idea in
him, and he decided to perform a test. He decided to write a few reports full
of light, love and understanding for the org, praising the resa organizational
structure, complementing Klemp in his changes with the org, etc., to see what
kind of response he would get, vis-a vis initiations.
Within a few months he recieved another intiation, his sixth initiaton, as I
recall. Oddly, he said he had been as full of doubts as he had ever been, and
had simply made up the reports full of praise for the org. It was an experiment
he had tried, and it worked. He said it was kind of scary, since his experiment
entailed sort of "tricking" the living eck master. This "test" became
instrumental in his choosing to leave eckankar.
A similar experience happened to me, I should add. When I recieved the sixth
initiation, I had essentially already decided to leave eckankar. I was still
hanging on out of some slight uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my
membership do to the fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A
year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised
to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I already
knew. Initiations are not overseen or approved by some omniscient being, but by
a computer, with the assistance of initiate reports, and recomendations by the
local Resa and other local high initiates. Lest there are those who don't yet
know this, lists are sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
Resa, who confers with local high initiates to either recomend or not an
initiation.
Think about the numbers involved. If there are 50,000 members in the org, and
each receive initiations every five years or so, then that would be 10,000
initiations per year, or 833 initiations per month, or about 40 initiations per
day (excluding weekends), or about one initiation every eight minutes in an
average eight hour day, without breaks. Klemp would have to work full time on
initiations to spend eight minutes every five years on the "individual" member.
He is said to check the inner akashic and soul records to make such a choice.
He would have to live out of the body most of his life to accomplish such a
feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing his constant supply of books,
writing his speeches, eating, drinking, sleeping, going to meetings, running
the corporation, etc.
No, folks, Klemp has nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
performing a perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
membership. He simply doesn't have the time. Klemp wrote of the computers
producing the initiation lists a while back as I recall. Remember, someone
would have to act as his agent on the physical plane to approve the initiation
and send out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
likely, persons) is not the living eck master.
The initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more than
organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online clergy. These are not
enlightend beings. They are ordinary people caught up in the throes of everyday
life, like most people are in the rest of the world.
Food for thought...
-Leafeater
cher
given the opportunity to step into the 6th, you and your friend took
this opportunity fraudulently? It's no wonder you have a conspiracy
fixation, Tom. That kind of dishonesty has to effect a persons view of
life. I wouldn't worry too much about all those reports Tom.... it seems
the ECK gave you all the room you needed and with it you found the door
to leave. But I can see why the whole thing has no meaning to you with
an attitude such as this.
Tom Leafeater
Though I had serious doubts, I thought, why not try one more time? I wanted to
see, in a state which was more objective than previously, what would happen.
After all Cher, if the all-knowing Mahanta approved the initiaton, who was I to
refuse? My departure from eckankar happened very gradually, over a period of
many years. Even after recieving the sixth, I went to a seminar or two. My mate
was still a member of eckankar during this time, and I wanted to keep harmony
between us. I could only express so much of my feelings to her, although she
was well aware of my doubts. It was many years later that I decided not to
renew my membership, when she, quite on her own, had come to the conclusion
eckankar was a fraud. You see, Cher, it was not fraud on my part to take the
intiation believing eckankar to be false, but rather fraud on the part of
eckankar in conning me for all those years. The initiation itself was a fraud,
so how could my deciding to recieve it be anything but inconsequential?
-Leafeater
cher
that you lost the connection and that this proves to you the Mahanta is
a fraud. That you gave it one more try and that you were given this
opportunity means the Mahanta should've known what you would do? How
does this fit with free will, Tom? Forget all the other b.s. you
concocted to cover this whole story.... you're saying that the Mahanta
should've known that you were playing him for a fool? Is that what you
mean by this? And if he was all-knowing he'd have known that you were on
your way out?
Okay... so then if this is true.... then if the Mahanta had not sent you
the 6th initiation, tne of course there would've been proof that he knew
you wanted out and were going to leave? So you would've left either way,
right? So how would you have managed to make that one his fault? Just
curious, Tom.
Michael
consdieration that we get what we expect. An initiation is exactly what it
is according to our presets, etc.
This "fact" can be used either as a cop out or a simple truth.
Roman thought had two essential gods... Lucre and Ops... Ops was
opportunity. You are given an opportunity... What you do with it determines
the value of the opening.
Love
Michael
"Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010708174822...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
brian Fletcher
is "I am always with you".
With friend Tom, he achieved the fifth initiation without grasping this
reality. If he had have, he wouldn't be trying to mentally rationalise in
the way he is here.
When I was involved, one suggestion was to write the report, and then throw
it in the bin if that felt comfortable. Since those days, there are many
formal and informal organisations that see great theraputic value in
crystalising ones thoughts in precisely this way.
The premise I follow, and havn't deviated for a couple of decades, is I
trust myself and life implicitly.
Within that premise, I know that the next set of experiences will take me to
beyond my current consciousness.You are caught up in a retrospective.
If you need to analyse as you have here in a rational way, which is
sensible, all as I would have suggested is that you should have done that
when you first heard about that system. You didn't, and now you are
mentalising when you should be knowing.
If you think that any part of the Mahanta consciousness can "rationalised
away" then you are doing what you should do.
Just another step.
Brian
"Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010708171839...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> It is said there are some 50,000 members of eckankar. According to the
org,
> each should follow the discipline of writing an initiate report every
month
> addressing one's spiritual growth for that month. Just think, that
represents
> tens of thousands of initate reports a month...
Sean
I'm finding it real hard to see the logic in any of your story here
................
"Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010708174822...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> Actually, Cher, I had decided to take the sixth to see what would happen.
> Though I had serious doubts, I thought, why not try one more time? I
wanted to
> see, in a state which was more objective than previously, what would
happen.
What on earth does this mean: "more objective" ?
Sounds to me you are saying that from moving from the 5th to the 6th
Initiation you'd see things more "objectively" with some higher insight than
previously available to you?
Strewth Tom as a 1st Initiate I knew the difference between objective
reality and subjective and what Paul Twitchell was alluding to when he
discussed in several books the difference and how the 'subjective' is key to
understanding ourselves and our relationship with spirit.
You are contending here that as a 5th you still didn't get this fundamental
aspect? No wonder you had doubts Tom. Colleen asserts here also that she was
a supposedly a holier than thou 7th Initiate achieving that RANK after a
mere 7 years yet feels she is able to advise those who have continued with
their spiritual disciplines for up to 30 years and who still find value in
the teachings and in being a member of Eckankar.
So you wanted to see "what would happen" as if you were trying out a new
medication prescribed by the doctor. This to me sounds more like
relinquishing your own responsibility for your spiritual growth and
expecting some magical guru to save you from yourself. You were a 5th and
still didn't recognise this self-defeating behaviour and expectation?
In your story here and elsewhere I have never seen you refer to the inner
journey, the inner intiations and their impacts on your shifts of
consciousness. You appear to place an undeserving importance on the outer
initiation and the pink slips being personally approved by this omnipotent
being the LEM, like somehow this IS what Eckankar is all about, but it made
no impact on you therefore it is a fraud.
Are you trully serious here in these complaints because I simply cannot
believe the utter naivity of such an approach .............. let alone
relying on such ignoble experiences to come here and sprout your ignorances
of the greater truth in an attempt to prove to others the illegitimacy of
Eckankar and the LEM as you see it.
You got to be kidding right? Pulling our leg here just to test our own
awareness or something? Absolutely the 6th Initiation was a fraud but one
perpetuated by yourself and not by the LEM. Where was the Inner 6th
Initiation, what was the new word you received/created before the pink
slipper arrived? What happened to the inner experiences of Self-realisation
that occurred before the 5th pink slipper was placed on your feet? When you
finally faced yourself what did you see?
For that matter as you progressed in your spiritual development what
happened to all those experiences those breakthrus in understanding,
awareness, love and wisdom that occured spontaneously after all the
necessary HARD WORK? All I can conclude is that the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd
and the 4th were also frauds on your part whilst you patiently waited for
the silver bullet of redemption somewhere higher up the Initiation tables.
Look Tom, Paul and Harold have both spoke and written about the unimportance
of the outer initiation in the big scheme of things ............ did you
miss completely all those references? They are in the Shariyat too you know,
both the inner and the outer ones. It is said very clearly [unless I'm
totally unique] the real initiation happens in the Inner before OR after the
outer one.
That in the processs there comes many minor initiations and steps we will
pass thru on the journey towards the major shifts.
That the outer initation can NOT be used as some kind of value system to
judge a persons level of spirituality.
That Eckankar is an"individual" path to God.
That the outer Initiations are designed to "facilitate" that process, but
are NOT the process in itself.
That spirit is a universal quality and essence that works with all those who
SINCERELY open themselves to ITS presence and help IRRESPECTIVE of one's
membership in Eckankar or apparent outer Initiation or standing in the
community.
That the sole purpose of Eckankar was/is to bring the message of the Light
and Sound to the world openly for those who are ready, and all other
activities are "inconsequential".
That Eckankar is a matrix and so is the Inner Master a matrix through which
SPIRIT, or the ECK for those who choose to use that term, works through.
That Order of the Vairagi is ONE order of spiritual beings who work together
under the Heirarchy for the benefit of those Souls whom have earnt the
priveldge but that priveldge is one which is re-won everyday and NOT some
automatic passport to happiness that gets a stamp of approval in a pink slip
from the outer LEM.
To think otherwise is either foolish or deluded or both in my view.
DOUBTS? To me it sounds more like clueless, but needless to say I respect
your decision to leave and expect that it was inevitable, necessary and in
your best interests. No one including the LEM ever asks or expects someone
to remain in any path that no longer suits their needs or that they have no
valid committment to.
> After all Cher, if the all-knowing Mahanta approved the initiaton, who was
I to
> refuse?
Are you sure you were an Initiate in Eckankar? Anyone has the right to
refuse an Initiation if they feel they are not yet ready. The Pink slip
gives you 3 months to accept or reject the "offer", for that is all it is,
an offer NOT a directive. You had every right to refuse the 6th Outer
Initiation, in fact you had the opportunity to take that responsibilty in
your hands and exercise it with integrity and honour for the spiritual value
that it 'represented'. It seems you chose otherwise, and that was your
choice to make.
My departure from eckankar happened very gradually, over a period of
> many years. Even after recieving the sixth, I went to a seminar or two.
Well big deal, you went to a seminar. What's that supposed to prove except
that you could afford the time and expense. Brownie points for seminar
appearances isn't part of the path Tom. Seminars are provided for the
service of others and the opportunity to serve, not self-agrandisment and
certainly not some kind of proof of the reality of the spiritual path.
They're just seminars Tom.
You see, Cher, it was not fraud on my part to take the
> intiation believing eckankar to be false, but rather fraud on the part of
> eckankar in conning me for all those years.
Nope, definitely self-deluded Tom. I would highly recommend a little more
work on your own workings before leaping to judgements on the workings of an
organisation and spiritual path you know very little about apparently,
despite the many years you "assert" you spent in it.
49,999 other members have a different story to tell than this one of yours.
I hope you find a path and way of life more sutiable to your desires and
eventually are able to leave this and the people who still find immense
value in it alone. In the meantime I guess the banter and baiting will
continue. And that's OK too, so I don't care less really what you say, but I
reserve the right to correct the false impression you give to others based
soley on your experiences and distorted POV, I hope that's OK with you.
Have a good day
Sean
Note: the information in this post is simply my own personal perspectives
and should not be construed as an official representation of ECKANKAR or the
Mahanta the LEM.
Colleen Russell
I had already drifted away from the org, it is clear to me, as well, that
one of the rewards for staying in the org is through initiations which gain
one status. And, of course, after the gift is given, one predictably feels
obligated to do something in return.
--
Colleennews:20010708171839...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Colleen Russell
You miss the point when you write:
"Colleen asserts here also that she was
a supposedly a holier than thou 7th Initiate achieving that RANK after a
mere 7 years yet feels she is able to advise those who have continued with
their spiritual disciplines for up to 30 years and who still find value in
the teachings and in being a member of Eckankar."
Whoever said I haven't continued my spiritual disciplines? You certainly
don't have to be a member of eckankar to do so. In fact, I'd say it is a
necessity to leave eckankar if one is committed to one's spiritual
disciplines.
--
Colleen
"Sean" <nos...@cgold.com> wrote in message
news:4ce27.24980$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Sean
...............................
<snipped>
.............30 years and who still find value in
> the teachings and in being a member of Eckankar."
>
"who still find value"
Get a life Colleen, your husband deserves it.
Sean
Sean
status symbol appears to be you love.
You still don't get the "mirror" thing do you sweetie? Oh well. <G>
"Colleen Russell" <coll...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9ibsrj$i3v$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
Michael
>
> I'm finding it real hard to see the logic in any of your story here
> ................
>
> "Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010708174822...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> > Actually, Cher, I had decided to take the sixth to see what would
happen.
> > Though I had serious doubts, I thought, why not try one more time? I
> wanted to
> > see, in a state which was more objective than previously, what would
> happen.
>
> What on earth does this mean: "more objective" ?
>
> Sounds to me you are saying that from moving from the 5th to the 6th
> Initiation you'd see things more "objectively" with some higher insight
than
> previously available to you?
I recon he would have been happier taking the Fifth... Again... and again...
(Disclaimer: Bad Law of Kamit pun are not intended to illuminate or educate,
but merely be passingly amusing for some stray bark... whose worth unknown,
e'ne though his height be taken ...)
(Further Disclaimer: Any similarity to Shakespear is illusionary, and tough
if you think differently because he is out of copyright, anyway)
>
> Strewth Tom as a 1st Initiate I knew the difference between objective
> reality and subjective and what Paul Twitchell was alluding to when he
> discussed in several books the difference and how the 'subjective' is key
to
> understanding ourselves and our relationship with spirit.
I have to say... I thought that was the case when i was a First. Now-a-days
I am more convinced they have squashed into a tight room inside my head, and
the argument is only pacified with me telling them to be quiet. I finally
sorted the voices out, and worked out that we were all related, and now it
is just one big happy family... Me and my MPD's
(That's almost a song)
>
> You are contending here that as a 5th you still didn't get this
fundamental
> aspect? No wonder you had doubts Tom. Colleen asserts here also that she
was
> a supposedly a holier than thou 7th Initiate achieving that RANK after a
> mere 7 years yet feels she is able to advise those who have continued with
> their spiritual disciplines for up to 30 years and who still find value in
> the teachings and in being a member of Eckankar.
Absurd...How could "I" know anything, or appreciate value. I deny this
absolutely, Sean. I am a mindless cloneof the Eckankar Cult, and I can no
longer think for myself.
>
> So you wanted to see "what would happen" as if you were trying out a new
> medication prescribed by the doctor. This to me sounds more like
> relinquishing your own responsibility for your spiritual growth and
> expecting some magical guru to save you from yourself. You were a 5th and
> still didn't recognise this self-defeating behaviour and expectation?
Are you saying it is wrong for me to beat myself up every night, for not
being good enough ?? ... Mea Culpa!!
>
> In your story here and elsewhere I have never seen you refer to the inner
> journey, the inner intiations and their impacts on your shifts of
> consciousness. You appear to place an undeserving importance on the outer
> initiation and the pink slips being personally approved by this omnipotent
> being the LEM, like somehow this IS what Eckankar is all about, but it
made
> no impact on you therefore it is a fraud.
What's this business about having experiences? Aren't I supposed to just
rest on my laurels and have fabulously beautiful young 19 year olds think
they adore me? I thought if I went out and gave a few glib speehcs where
everyone clapped that would pretty much ensure the passport to the Higher
Worlds... You know... After i die...
And before that... Well aren't I supposed to practise enjoying THIS one as
well? As above, so below... So below, as Above... That's what I tell the
young 19 year olds, anyway (he he he)
>
> Are you trully serious here in these complaints because I simply cannot
> believe the utter naivity of such an approach .............. let alone
> relying on such ignoble experiences to come here and sprout your
ignorances
> of the greater truth in an attempt to prove to others the illegitimacy of
> Eckankar and the LEM as you see it.
Yeah!
But how can you prove illegitimacy when only one person created it? Think
about it, folks... <G>
>
> You got to be kidding right? Pulling our leg here just to test our own
> awareness or something? Absolutely the 6th Initiation was a fraud but one
> perpetuated by yourself and not by the LEM. Where was the Inner 6th
> Initiation, what was the new word you received/created before the pink
> slipper arrived? What happened to the inner experiences of
Self-realisation
> that occurred before the 5th pink slipper was placed on your feet? When
you
> finally faced yourself what did you see?
Ah yes... Perhaps... But SURELY I have the right to my ownversion of right
and wrong, and my OWN personal standards which can measure the elephant,
though they are only two foot long.
I have been fishing and I KNOW how to make that one the got away REALLY big.
>
> For that matter as you progressed in your spiritual development what
> happened to all those experiences those breakthrus in understanding,
> awareness, love and wisdom that occured spontaneously after all the
> necessary HARD WORK? All I can conclude is that the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd
> and the 4th were also frauds on your part whilst you patiently waited for
> the silver bullet of redemption somewhere higher up the Initiation tables.
I think they spontaneously combusted...
"Silver Bullet of Redemption" ... that is goooood....
>
> Look Tom, Paul and Harold have both spoke and written about the
unimportance
> of the outer initiation in the big scheme of things ............ did you
> miss completely all those references? They are in the Shariyat too you
know,
> both the inner and the outer ones. It is said very clearly [unless I'm
> totally unique] the real initiation happens in the Inner before OR after
the
> outer one.
He said to me personally one day that outr initiations are a hand holding
exercise... And that the Inner ones are what count... But he DID also stress
that we needed BOTH. Obviously he did this to keep me roped in and paying by
Bucks... But damn it all, whenever I meet him I always forget to go up and
question him on this money business...
But when he looked at me in the audience and smiled (While reprimanding in
general terms) after I was telling jokes at a table beside his daughter and
her newly married non-ECKist husband and was part of what was 'rather' a
scene ... Well, I figured he probably likes me anyway.
Hell... he even seemed to still like me after I pinned Joan down on the fact
they obviously weren't married, and travelling together... They announced
the marriage soon after that (No thanks to me, I am sure <G>)
I was somewhat more subtle than the typical Aussie "Hey are you two a unit,
or what?" you will be pleased to know.
Oh, after this brief interlude on independance from the grips of the evil
Eck Org, I managed to get back to my complacent, unthinking Eck-bot mindset.
> That in the processs there comes many minor initiations and steps we will
> pass thru on the journey towards the major shifts.
> That the outer initation can NOT be used as some kind of value system to
> judge a persons level of spirituality.
Now now... In 20 years that statements may come back to haunt you!!
Especially when it comes to 19 year olds!! <G>
> That Eckankar is an"individual" path to God.
> That the outer Initiations are designed to "facilitate" that process, but
> are NOT the process in itself.
> That spirit is a universal quality and essence that works with all those
who
> SINCERELY open themselves to ITS presence and help IRRESPECTIVE of one's
> membership in Eckankar or apparent outer Initiation or standing in the
> community.
> That the sole purpose of Eckankar was/is to bring the message of the Light
> and Sound to the world openly for those who are ready, and all other
> activities are "inconsequential".
> That Eckankar is a matrix and so is the Inner Master a matrix through
which
> SPIRIT, or the ECK for those who choose to use that term, works through.
> That Order of the Vairagi is ONE order of spiritual beings who work
together
> under the Heirarchy for the benefit of those Souls whom have earnt the
> priveldge but that priveldge is one which is re-won everyday and NOT some
> automatic passport to happiness that gets a stamp of approval in a pink
slip
> from the outer LEM.
>
> To think otherwise is either foolish or deluded or both in my view.
As the famous band sang: Stop making Sense
You will convince me that I have not lived an entirely fraudulent existence
if you keep this up! How can you take this bitter disappointment away so
easily! Have you no respect for my indulgent ability to soak in my self
deluded state?
> DOUBTS? To me it sounds more like clueless, but needless to say I respect
> your decision to leave and expect that it was inevitable, necessary and in
> your best interests. No one including the LEM ever asks or expects someone
> to remain in any path that no longer suits their needs or that they have
no
> valid committment to.
That's it... Hard, then soft... Hard then soft... Weaken the resolve and
then we can sneak into his brain and start the brainwashing all over again!
Good technique there Sri Sean...
>
> > After all Cher, if the all-knowing Mahanta approved the initiaton, who
was
> I to
> > refuse?
>
> Are you sure you were an Initiate in Eckankar? Anyone has the right to
> refuse an Initiation if they feel they are not yet ready. The Pink slip
> gives you 3 months to accept or reject the "offer", for that is all it is,
> an offer NOT a directive. You had every right to refuse the 6th Outer
> Initiation, in fact you had the opportunity to take that responsibilty in
> your hands and exercise it with integrity and honour for the spiritual
value
> that it 'represented'. It seems you chose otherwise, and that was your
> choice to make.
As the Government advises our Youth...
"JUST SAY NO!"
(It sounded like you were not reading the light hearted jest with which Tom
tossed out his solilaquoy)
>
> My departure from eckankar happened very gradually, over a period of
> > many years. Even after recieving the sixth, I went to a seminar or two.
>
> Well big deal, you went to a seminar. What's that supposed to prove except
> that you could afford the time and expense. Brownie points for seminar
> appearances isn't part of the path Tom. Seminars are provided for the
> service of others and the opportunity to serve, not self-agrandisment and
> certainly not some kind of proof of the reality of the spiritual path.
> They're just seminars Tom.
They are OPPORTUNITIES, Sean... 19 year olds go there...
>
> You see, Cher, it was not fraud on my part to take the
> > intiation believing eckankar to be false, but rather fraud on the part
of
> > eckankar in conning me for all those years.
>
> Nope, definitely self-deluded Tom. I would highly recommend a little more
> work on your own workings before leaping to judgements on the workings of
an
> organisation and spiritual path you know very little about apparently,
> despite the many years you "assert" you spent in it.
>
> 49,999 other members have a different story to tell than this one of
yours.
Well... The truth is that Tom has rationalised his experienced in the shape
of his mindset. From his view, he is 100% right. I imagine Tom pretty much
believes he *does* have things 100% and therefore is now in a crystal clear
position from where we are easily seen as the Distracted Initates
Supportting Eckankar Inculated Zombies (DISEIZ)
Humpy Dumpty sat on a wall, did you know, Sean? Got your horses ready? <G>
>
> I hope you find a path and way of life more sutiable to your desires and
> eventually are able to leave this and the people who still find immense
> value in it alone. In the meantime I guess the banter and baiting will
> continue. And that's OK too, so I don't care less really what you say, but
I
> reserve the right to correct the false impression you give to others based
> soley on your experiences and distorted POV, I hope that's OK with you.
No... Tom knows best... We should just pay more attention to what he says,
and we will be led to a place of greater understanding and richer
experience... I have no doubts he would be happy to play messiah for us <G>
Could you get a Handel on THAT!
>
> Have a good day
>
> Sean
>
> Note: the information in this post is simply my own personal perspectives
> and should not be construed as an official representation of ECKANKAR or
the
> Mahanta the LEM.
>
DISCLAIMER: The comments in MY post should not be read as anything other
than light weigh banter filling in pixels in your brain.
Love
Michael
>
Michael
No person, group of persons or government may initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against any individual's self or property.
Force may be morally and legally used only in self-defense against those who violate Article 1.
No exceptions shall exist for Articles 1 and 2. "
Jan4litsnd
JAN:
Sean, I love what you said above!
We are each ultimately responsible for our inner initiations on each plane by
virtue of hard work everyday as an initiate of any circle.
No need to stop outer initiations while one is a member; if someone's going to
leave, they leave and that takes care of it. And one has five years after
leaving without losing outer initiations. Yet I know a seventh initiate who
left for ten years, then asked to return, and his initiations were all
reinstated. Perhaps every person and situation is different. It's the inner
work and the inner initiations that are important, a thousand scenarios can be
thought of for differences in people as we each walk the path in our own unique
way. For those who do stay and are committed in their heart to being a
co-worker with God and eventually find that it is for service to life and love
every step of the way, the path of Eckankar works very well.
-- Just my opinions.
Jan
SEAN:
Jan4litsnd
JAN:
Your numbers are off, Tom. If there are 50,000 ECKists, there aren't
necessarily any particular number you could guess at all who actually "mail" in
their initiate reports. Some people prefer to write them and not mail them,
which is the option offerred, myself included. I've actually mailed in perhaps
10 initiate reports in many years as an ECKist, preferring to write and then
not mail. Initiate reports are read at the time of the writing by the Mahanta,
the Inner Master, so as to facilitate whatever may be needed via the ECK
(Spirit) in the way of help along the way. That's the way a lot of the path of
Eckankar is with direct communication between the Mahanta and the chela. As
soon as an initiate report is written, it is put into the hands of Spirit. That
is the inner part of the path. As to outer reading, that's done as well.
Here's an excerpt of "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet", Harold Klemp
speaking of the time before he became the LEM, the summer before, as training,
he was asked to read initiate reports.
Page 387:
"It had been a very heavy schedule all summer, but I did not mention that.
Printing took up only a fraction of my time, since many side projects had been
put into my lap too. One of these assignments was to review initiate reports,
which took more than two hours a day. That was to be done at home on my own
time. But whenever possible, I took advantage of momentary quiet spells in the
printing department and read them in the privacy of the darkroom."
"No one else was to be told of this letter-reading task, which was a part of my
service to ECK. More specifically, it was training for ECK Mastership. It was
imperative that I become versed in the spiritual problems of ECK initiates.
Soon their inner lives would be my responsibility."
"I was struck by the sincerity of the letter writers. Most spoke from the
beautiful and sacred place in their hearts. Running through these letters was
a stream of testimony to personal experiences in the Sound and Light of God.
Many accounts were of meetings with the elusive ECK Masters, either in the
physical world or in the spiritual realms. There were also testimonies of
spiritual healings. The number of people around the globe with similar ECK
experiences was an eye-opening revelation."
"As I read more of these private letters over the passing weeks, I developed
the ability to tell what was in a letter by merely touching the envelope. A
letter with good news, or no problems, carries a much different rate of
vibration from one with disappointment or sorrow. When the pressure of time
required a faster reading speed, I employed this touch method."
"Letters from people whose lives were in balance I put aside in order that
requests for spiritual aid might have top priority."
"Reading such letters of karma meant using absolute detachment. I jotted a
brief note to the Living ECK Master about the contents of a letter, then wiped
everything from my consciousness. That is what it means to be a clear channel
for ECK. It was necessary to step out of the way so that no obstruction could
bar a spiritual healing." -- Harold Klemp.
Beddar Tsellz
Interesting post mostly about more or less straightforward experience.
I wouldn't argue about it one way or another. More interesting to me
is to stand back a little and look at this whole thing. Personally, I
noticed substantial inner openings associated with each initiation.
Because these are subjective experiences, there is no way to slice or
measure them, or even to compare them to anyone else's. One could say
that the ECK Masters made an inner connection or one could just as
easily say that I experienced what I expected. Either way, the overall
experience has been a good one for me.
When you look deeply into religions, they all, as far as I can tell,
just fall apart. I mentioned a book called "The Buddha from Brooklyn"
in an earlier post. This is really quite interesting. The "Buddha" in
question was named a "tulka" (or reincarnation of a great being) by
one of the highly regarded rinpoches of Tibetan Buddhism, but her
story is hilarious. At the same time, many of the monks and nuns
associated with her center had deep and valid spiritual experiences.
Tibetan Buddhism, by the way, claims to be the fastest path to God and
the only way to avoid endless reincarnations.
What's real in religions, I think, is the experience of the followers
(and occasionally, of the leaders). One viewpoint that can be taken is
that religions only serve to awaken what we already are inside. This
objective world is just what it is - what we partly see and what
science partly sees. That means any religion is just a make believe
construction meant to reflect and remind people of something greater
that simply can not be accurately expressed in words or any physical
construction we can create. So the question (to me at least), is not
which religion is real, but rather which religion does the best job of
reminding and inspiring someone to get to the real stuff. It's kind of
a "pick your illusion" or "pick your placebo" type situation. The big
claims made by religions help to enhance the placebo effect, but of
course, they also have a down side (hell, the slow route, suffering,
etc.). That's the nature of this world, when one tries to say
ANYTHING, they are just creating a disturbance in the dual worlds
(Walter Russell's stuff on this is illuminating) - a charge one way or
the other that goes out into the universe seeking union with its mate,
for everything is created here in pairs or duals. A.R.E. might be
thought of as a "reunion," for the creation of Eckankar had to be, by
the rules of the universe, an illusion. (Welcome home everyone!)
I don't blame anyone for the way they feel about Eckankar. For myself,
focusing on the teachings, doing spiritual exercises, loving life, and
dealing with all the crazy ambiguity of living in this world really
did a number on me. I am incredibly free compared to what I was before
entering Eckankar. Who do I thank? Eckankar? Myself? Eckists? Family?
Life? People here at A.R.E.? This is the unfathomable beauty of life.
Spirit disappears when you look for it, but we know it is here and
working in our lives if we are honest about it. I love the lines in
Rumi that say, "God's joy moves from unmarked box to unmarked box."
There are two wonderful truths here. First, God's joy (or love or
truth) "moves." You can't pin it down, not in Eckankar and not
anywhere else. Second, the packages it hides in are unmarked. We all
have responsibility for finding it, over and over again, wherever it
is hiding in our lives.
I tell you, quite honestly, I feel the same love and kinship for
people in Eckankar and those who have left. What else can everyone do
besides follow the call of Spirit wherever it leads? I honor your
search for and adherence to truth. I also honor anyone's desire to
reach for God through Eckankar or any other religion. I know people
who have spent years in Eckankar up until they died. Was it a bad
life? Not if they immersed themselves in love for God and others. My
mother-in-law is a devout fundamentalist Christian. Chances are, she
will be until she dies. But she is also a beautiful, loving person
who, though in her 80's, spends most of her time serving others. I
just can't criticize that no matter what she believes or doesn't
believe. Nor can I find it in myself to feel superior to her even
though those teachings hold little value for me. I spend my time
trying to learn how to be as generous as she is.
Anyway, thanks for your post. I think we're really all on the same
path as long as we agree not to try and give it a name (and send those
crazy, separated electic charges out into the universe).
Beddar Tsellz
tomlea...@aol.com (Tom Leafeater) wrote in message news:<20010708171839...@ng-mg1.aol.com>...
brian Fletcher
> Whoever said I haven't continued my spiritual disciplines? You certainly
> don't have to be a member of eckankar to do so. In fact, I'd say it is a
> necessity to leave eckankar if one is committed to one's spiritual
> disciplines.
>
When one tells others what they should or should'nt need to do to develop
their own spiritual disciplines still has to understand some very basic
principles.
Brian
Sam
Beddar Tsellz wrote in message ...
Words of Wisdom, Beddar Tsellz. Thank You.
Sam
Sean
"Jan4litsnd" <jan4l...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010709093426...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
And I love what you said below! <G>
Wanna share a banana split at the local drug store? <twinkle twinkle>
Sorry Jan, I go like this after reading Michaels posts <G>
Thanks, but it's not mine, so share it if you think it's useful.
> We are each ultimately responsible for our inner initiations on each plane
by
> virtue of hard work everyday as an initiate of any circle.
>
> No need to stop outer initiations while one is a member; if someone's
going to
> leave, they leave and that takes care of it. And one has five years after
> leaving without losing outer initiations. Yet I know a seventh initiate
who
> left for ten years, then asked to return, and his initiations were all
> reinstated. Perhaps every person and situation is different. It's the
inner
> work and the inner initiations that are important, a thousand scenarios
can be
> thought of for differences in people as we each walk the path in our own
unique
> way. For those who do stay and are committed in their heart to being a
> co-worker with God and eventually find that it is for service to life and
love
> every step of the way, the path of Eckankar works very well.
>
> -- Just my opinions.
>
Mine too Jan, just a snapshot in eternity.
No more, no less ................ but nice to look back on when in another
space.
Sean
Sean
"Michael" <harmonic1@.bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
news:0Zh27.25223$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> "Sean" <nos...@cgold.com> wrote in message
> news:4ce27.24980$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > Tom,
> >
> > I'm finding it real hard to see the logic in any of your story here
> > ................
> >
> > "Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010708174822...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> > > Actually, Cher, I had decided to take the sixth to see what would
> happen.
Bet Tom never expected "Sean" to happen <G>
Oh well, we all do the best we can don't we.
>> That the outer initation can NOT be used as some kind of value system to
>> judge a persons level of spirituality.
>Now now... In 20 years that statements may come back >to haunt you!!
>Especially when it comes to 19 year olds!! <G>
Do you think 19yo's will still be legal "tender" then?
Actually my effusive defence of the unimportance of such value systems is
due to my current status as a "-55th"! I'm working with my banker to see if
I can re-structure my mortage and thereby improve my status with a generous
contibution to the Chanhassen Campus Building fund. yeah I've heard all the
walk the walk and talk the talk stuff, but hey when you're an ECKist you
KNOW money talks best. Hey PT was great teacher after all I guess ;-/
> DISCLAIMER: The comments in MY post should not be read as anything other
> than light weigh banter filling in pixels in your brain.
>
roflol
What can say Michael? I'm just SPEECH~less! <G>
oh but pondering more on the added benefits of those 19 yo's you speak
about. Is it ok to refuse blonde's though? <G>
Love Sean
<G>
> Love
>
> Michael
>
> >
>
>
Sam
year? That fellow madly running around the field with that three-wheeler (or
was it a four-wheeler?). I commented to my ozzie friend that there was
something in ozzies' character that loves chaos just for the sheer heck of
it, and he laughed. Well, us Canuks are known world-wide for their
peace-keeping character. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, eh?
Sam
Sean wrote in message ...
SoulWords
>necessarily any particular number you could guess at all who actually "mail"
>in
>their initiate reports. Some people prefer to write them and not mail them,
>which is the option offerred, myself included. I've actually mailed in
>perhaps
>10 initiate reports in many years as an ECKist, preferring to write and then
>not mail. Initiate reports are read at the time of the writing by the
>Mahanta,
>the Inner Master, so as to facilitate whatever may be needed via the ECK
>(Spirit) in the way of help along the way. That's the way a lot of the path
>of
>Eckankar is with direct communication between the Mahanta and the chela. As
>soon as an initiate report is written, it is put into the hands of Spirit.
Jan, if those ECKists I know well enough are a random sample, I would say that
the actual numbers of Initiate Reports mailed in among North American ECKists
would be about 10% of the potential. Let's say there are 30,000, and 25,000 are
2nd Initiates or higher- that would be 2500 a month.
I am not sure about the large numbers of African ECKists- there is more
discipline among them, but less money for postage!
Love, David
i
Sean
australians [asians, arabs, indians, africans whatever] are pretty much no
different especially those who went thru school here. I guess it's
contagious!
But seriously were NOT really like that "crocodile hunter" dude, he's nuts.
Here's a little something before I depart:
Spoken with a slow drawling gravelly aussie voice ;-)
_______________________
My Country
The love of field and coppice,
Of green and shaded lanes,
Of ordered woods and gardens
Is running in your veins;
Strong love of grey-blue distance
Brown streams and soft dim skies -
I know but cannot share it,
My love is otherwise.
I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror-
This wide brown land for me .
Dorothea MacKellar
"Dorothea Mackellar was born on the July 1st at Rose Bay in Sydney 1885. She
was educated privately and also at the University of Sydney. Dorothea lived
with her family in the Allyn River valley and experienced a drought
breaking. This sight enriched her with ideas to write the poem "My Country."
The Spectator published this poem in September 1908, while she was
travelling London. "My Country" quickly became Australia's best-known lyric
poem." Source
see ya Mate!
Sean
"Sam" <S...@Reality.o.rg> wrote in message
news:NJl27.2573$hx1....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
brian Fletcher
Interestingly, I have only come across open attitudes that encompass the
"individual path" from Eckists (or people who have no particular allience
with any teachings per se)
Brian
"Beddar Tsellz" <beddar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f7c6a07b.01070...@posting.google.com...
Masterfully Unique
> One of the basic precepts of the role of the Mahanta, The Living Eck Master
> is "I am always with you".
>
> With friend Tom, he achieved the fifth initiation without grasping this
> reality. If he had have, he wouldn't be trying to mentally rationalise in
> the way he is here.
>
> When I was involved, one suggestion was to write the report, and then throw
> it in the bin if that felt comfortable. Since those days, there are many
> formal and informal organisations that see great theraputic value in
> crystalising ones thoughts in precisely this way.
>
> The premise I follow, and havn't deviated for a couple of decades, is I
> trust myself and life implicitly.
>
> Within that premise, I know that the next set of experiences will take me to
> beyond my current consciousness.You are caught up in a retrospective.
>
> If you need to analyse as you have here in a rational way, which is
> sensible, all as I would have suggested is that you should have done that
> when you first heard about that system. You didn't, and now you are
> mentalising when you should be knowing.
I hear a crow bird.
I think it is singing a lovely quote from brian.
"When one tells others what they should or should'nt need to do to develop
their own spiritual disciplines still has to understand some very basic
principles."
Brian
>
Jan4litsnd
SEAN:
JAN:
So that's what happens when you read Michael's posts.
Banana split's good, at cyberland drugstoreland, of course...no calories!
Bring Michael along. Everyone else, too!
I'm feeling pretty good these days. Lots of realizations about what's
important in life. Last night my husband, my daughter and myself decided to
cook dinner together, music on, and just having fun trying out new
receipes....a new pasta dish, and key lime pie. What good people are in my
life. Silly...then caught the end of a movie on TV..."Prelude To A Kiss"...Meg
Ryan had just switched back into her real body after having been inadvertently
switched to an old guys for most of the movie...and saying how wonderful to be
in her real body...she was just grateful to BE. No fighting with her husband,
just glad to BE with him. Sappy, but just think of the things we can be
grateful for.
But, we meet here to stand up for our rights to BE...to BE on the path we love,
to BE free to practice and believe in the religion of our choice.
Ah well, life on the green planet, life in cyberspace. <g>
Jan
Tom Leafeater
un-abashed self-glorification:
>Bet Tom never expected "Sean" to happen <G>
Actually, Sean, you seem to me to be not much different than some of the other
members of the org on a.r.e., albeit with a little more free time to blow on
the web than most. You have managed to meet the expectations I've come to have
of most other eckankar habitues' here. I'm curious to know, though, in light of
your comment above, how you have begun to see yourself vis-a-vis your role
here?
-Leafeater
Tom Leafeater
One of the basic precepts of the role of the Mahanta, The Living Eck Master
is "I am always with you".
With friend Tom, he achieved the fifth initiation without grasping this
reality. If he had have, he wouldn't be trying to mentally rationalise in
the way he is here.
When I was involved, one suggestion was to write the report, and then throw
it in the bin if that felt comfortable. Since those days, there are many
formal and informal organisations that see great theraputic value in
crystalising ones thoughts in precisely this way.
The premise I follow, and havn't deviated for a couple of decades, is I
trust myself and life implicitly.
Within that premise, I know that the next set of experiences will take me to
beyond my current consciousness.You are caught up in a retrospective.
If you need to analyse as you have here in a rational way, which is
sensible, all as I would have suggested is that you should have done that
when you first heard about that system. You didn't, and now you are
mentalising when you should be knowing.
If you think that any part of the Mahanta consciousness can "rationalised
away" then you are doing what you should do.
Just another step.
Brian
"Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010708171839...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> It is said there are some 50,000 members of eckankar. According to the
org,
> each should follow the discipline of writing an initiate report every
month
> addressing one's spiritual growth for that month. Just think, that
represents
> tens of thousands of initate reports a month...
Leafeater replies:
Thank you, Lord Brian, for all of the advice on how to live my spiritual life.
You seem quite convinced of your spiritual standing, and also seem quite sure
you know enough about me to make such sweeping pronouncements. I have a
suggeston for you. Start up your own path! You could do such wonders for the
world. Just think, thousands singing, Brian-gee, Brian-gee. You could probably
get quite a following, considering how incredibly gullible people are. People
desperately need meaning in their lives and you could easily provide it to
them. I wonder, Brian, has this thought occured to you? You have just the right
tone of superiority to pull it off. And you believe in your own ascendancy to
boot!
Sean
<G> Tom, read into my comments anything you like, no matter what you think
you can glean from the pixels on the screen, you can't know me, even if I
tried to explain it.
The only role I have at a.r.e is the occasional buttered one I eat whilst
reading the posts. ;-)
I don't presume to know you, yet I do engage with the pixels on the screen
you present ............ for that is all there is to engage with. Make what
you will from what I write I know my own 'intentions' and the limits to my
skills in achieving those intentions............and that's all that matters.
In closing for I must away and you are right to point out much time being
spent here, but I have uncovered what *I* needed to know and will move on.
Yet I felt you deserved an answer.
I think Jan in another post in this thread has put my thoughts in a much
better way than I ever could.
"But, we meet here to stand up for our rights to BE...to BE on the path we
love,
to BE free to practice and believe in the religion of our choice."
With Love, till another time
Sean
Michael
need for slpstick!! <G>
(I can say that to you, because you are a Canadian, from Canadia <G>)
It 'was' sort of strange... A four wheeler, btw...
Love
Michael
"Sam" <S...@Reality.o.rg> wrote in message
news:NJl27.2573$hx1....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Michael
>
> "Michael" <harmonic1@.bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
> news:0Zh27.25223$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "Sean" <nos...@cgold.com> wrote in message
> > news:4ce27.24980$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > I'm finding it real hard to see the logic in any of your story here
> > > ................
> > >
>
> >> That the outer initation can NOT be used as some kind of value system
to
> >> judge a persons level of spirituality.
>
> >Now now... In 20 years that statements may come back >to haunt you!!
> >Especially when it comes to 19 year olds!! <G>
>
> Do you think 19yo's will still be legal "tender" then?
LOL... That was a pretty good one... I am going to find a way to weave that
into a tale somewhere <G>
>
> oh but pondering more on the added benefits of those 19 yo's you speak
> about. Is it ok to refuse blonde's though? <G>
>
> Love Sean
It is OK to ask them to PROVE they are blonds, before refusing them... I am
told it makes them keener that way (Ducking)
Love
Michael
>
>
>
> <G>
> > Love
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Michael
I will ditto that "right to BE" speech... No longer do we ask "To BE or not
to Be" ... Now (Warning, pun ahead) ... Just to BE is the Buzz
I am going... no need for the pies... <G>
Love
Michael
brian Fletcher
I think there is a lot more to this type of communication han just pixels on
a screen.
Thats like saying whales communication are merely sound waves in the ocean
Brian
brian Fletcher
the answer.!!!
Brian
brian Fletcher
I've already starred in Life Of Brian , and look where that got me.....
Carol King said it best....
"You're so Vain, You probably Think This Song Is About You"
..............Not about you Tom, just for others to make a comparison if
they are passing this way.
Never interested in discussing the details, our Tom, would much sooner dish
out insults.
"Superiority"???, from which end of the rope did that come from Tom Tit
Brian
Sean
>
> "Sean" <nos...@cgold.com> wrote in message
> news:1Sv27.25534$e5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "Tom Leafeater" <tomlea...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010710000258...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
>
>
> I think there is a lot more to this type of communication han just pixels
on
> a screen.
>
Maybe not the best way of explaining it, but I knew what I meant.
> Thats like saying whales communication are merely sound waves in the ocean
>
Well what you say would be accurate however given the intention of what I
was suggesting lats look at it this way.
The whale songs are converted to a music score, inputed into a computer
device, transported by cyberspace to the other side of the planet, and then
presented to a completely different sub species of whales [culturally
different] and then there they have the printed score presented to them via
an electronic sounding device as opposed to the "real energy of the
intiaiting whale" ............................ get my drift net? <g>
So in the end, it can not be the same as a couple of whales frolicking in
the same bay, the message technically might be there but there is a lot lost
in the "process" ............. as such it makes the process completely
different. People who fail to adjust to this different process on ng's can't
help but lose out on the value that is still there.
My point comes down to all one can "relate" to is the actual hard cold
pixels on the screen and their very own perceptions. All the <G> ;-)
gggrrrrrr's in the world can replace being in close proximity t another
person in communication.
In my view this magnifies the individuals filtering system which for example
also magnifies the effects of "mirroring" as opposed to normal face to face
discussions. I could be wrong of course, just adding my ideas about the
dynamics as I experience it.
Hope that clears it up a little for you Brian, as per my meaning in the
original post.
Sean
> Brian
>
>
brian Fletcher
I was not too clear in what I was trying to get across.
What I should have said was that communicating/contacting someone in this
medium has more to it "inwardly" that meets the eye., or the screen.
Brian
"Sean" <nos...@cgold.com> wrote in message
news:9zQ27.28869$e5.8...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Michael
Love
michael
"brian Fletcher" <bri...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3b4c03a0$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Sean
entirely I suppose.
Thanks Sean
"brian Fletcher" <bri...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3b4c03a0$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...