After You Join Eckankar (How Not to Do It)
SoulWords
with a sincere, childlike, love for Spirit. God knows what might happen then!
(2) When you do them, make a half-hearted attempt, and then whine for at least
3 minutes because you didn't instantly Soul Travel.
(3) Beleive that the Mahanta will bring you 2 million dollars, a great-looking
spouse, and a cure of your cancer within 6 months. If you don't get it, sue.
(4) Beleive that Eckankar is frozen in time and continually look at it exactly
as it appeared to you when you joined.
(5) Don't think that divine love is the heart of Eckankar.
(6) Make sure to not seek out ECKists who you can be friendly with. Seek out
those who you dislike to prove your skepticism.
(7) Realize that if the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not perfect, the
whole path has nothing to offer you.
(8) Realize, like Groucho Marx, that any group that would want YOU to join
is not really worth joining anyway.
(9) Make sure to put the group ahead of your own individual needs.
Love, David
Sam
SoulWords wrote in message <20020817174437...@mb-mg.aol.com>...
That's fine, David, but how to put this - which Joe posted - into context?
"Occasionally a letter reaches our desk stating that the writer wishes to
withdraw from ECKANKAR . . . of course we do not like to lose chelas in ECK,
but
there are some who have not understood the path and it is not likely that
they
have been spiritually unfolded enough to carry out the goal of reaching God
in a
single lifetime. Some of these chelas will drop out, which is natural, for
there is another path awaiting them at a lower level which is easier." IWL
pg. 149
"The chela must remember that after coming into ECK, if at any time he
decides
to drop out, he will meet with greater hardships because of his reluctance
and
lack of interest. He does not have the protection of the Master after
leaving
the path as previously . . . it is always better that the chela had not
taken
the step to enter into ECKANKAR in the first place if there is any doubt in
his
mind . . . nothing could delay his spiritual growth more than taking up the
path
of ECK abd then deciding to drop it." IWL pg. 150
"The Kal force will try to use the chela as much as possible. It is always
standing near, ready to seize upon any opening within the chela's
consciousness
which would give it a chance to use him as a vehicle . . . for doing the
downgrading and destruction of man." IWL pg. 151
"The common practice of the Kal force is to talk negatively or criticize ECK
carelessly and without thinking. Those who should know something, criticize
or
speak negatively about ECK or the Master or hold an overt or covert attitude
about either, bring swift reprisal to themselves . . . therefore, one must
think
very carefully about whether he wants to give up the path of ECK at any
time.
The advantages of being an ECK chela are the greatest in the world." IWL
pg. 152
PAULJI HAS SPOKEN!
My response to this is: Up yours!
See what I mean about being stuck between a rock and a hard place? I
actually do appreciate Paul's teachings, but to the point of the above
contextual input. No way, man. That is pure BS.
My way out is to say: Whatever! Who cares, Man? I got my own truth.
Sam
SoulWords
>See what I mean about being stuck between a rock and a hard place? I
>actually do appreciate Paul's teachings, but to the point of the above
>contextual input. No way, man. That is pure BS.
>
>My way out is to say: Whatever! Who cares, Man? I got my own truth.
>
>
>Sam
I understand the stickiness, Sam.
As you know, my main interest is the Main Thing.
Doing spiritual exercises regularly help
me to focus on the Main Thing.
Laughing at myself and the human consciousness also helps to bring
about that purpose.
I take everything written with a grain of salt.
A contemplation seed I found more useful for myself in Eckankar was something
like;
"Give up fear. If one can give up fear, one does not have to give up anything
else."
I take that far, far more seriously, than any of the writing Joe quoted- if it
is fear-based, I reject it- and if it's not fear-based, fine.
Giving up fear for me includes fear of the Kal, fear of dropping out, fear of
the Mahanta, fear of being wrong, fear of being right, fear of death, fear of
life.
The amazing thing is that love cannot exist where there is fear- so the simple
giving up of fear on the spiritual path brings out the love that was there, but
hidden by the fear.
The great Indian poet Tagore wrote something like-
"The mountain remains unmoved in the face of the thickest mist."
Love, David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anne
"Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
news:FUz79.3277$XX6....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
So you've found that Mahanta within, Sam? For me, I've suspected it, the
Consciousness was always there, is a part
of us all. I think Paul's statements look different in that inner
perspective. I mean how can we live without this part of ourselves, our
highest Self now that we know what it is? I'm not going to turn myself back
over to my little self, I've already seen what she knows....it doesn't
work...and there would be hell to pay with the little self back in charge
all the time again.
Love,
Anne
Sam
SoulWords wrote in message <20020817193225...@mb-cr.aol.com>...
things of a spiritual nature to others not much can ever be achieved by use
of the sledgehammer. What it takes is a good imagination, a heart of love,
and the willingness to bend over backwards, keep filling others' emotional
bank account and they will be willing to return the favour. I call this my
"positive brainwashing trick."
Sam
Sam
Anne wrote in message ...
If Mahanta means "me," yes! If it's supposed to mean anything other than
that I still say, well, "Up yours, pal."
The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what this
about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying: Fuck
your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go. There's
nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
RIGHT NOW!!!!!
Sam
Sam
Sam wrote in message ...
things. I'm going to go about my life teaching positive thinking and true
north principles. That's what I believe in. All the greatest philosophers
point in that direction.
Anne
"Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
>
> The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what this
> about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying: Fuck
> your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
> these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go. There's
> nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
> RIGHT NOW!!!!!
>
> Sam
I agree, if I find I am doing something out of fear, I stop. So far, I
don't think I've ever been afraid to
leave the path. When I did leave before it was because I needed the break
to figure things out and dig through my own past and see what was there I
could use, that kinda thing.
As for the inner master, that is a part of me, so in terms of -leaving-,
where would I go?
Love,
Anne
arelurker
Anne wrote:
>
> "Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
> news:gmK79.3333$XX6....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> >
> > The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what this
> > about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying: Fuck
> > your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
> > these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go. There's
> > nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
> > RIGHT NOW!!!!!
> >
> > Sam
>
> I agree, if I find I am doing something out of fear, I stop. So far, I
> don't think I've ever been afraid to
> leave the path. When I did leave before it was because I needed the break
> to figure things out and dig through my own past and see what was there I
> could use, that kinda thing.
Anne, you emailed me privately when you left eckankar. I think your
statements above are full of crap.
Lurk
Sam
arelurker wrote in message <3D5FA894...@charter.net>...
>
>
>Anne wrote:
>>
>> "Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
>> news:gmK79.3333$XX6....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
>> >
>> > The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what
this
>> > about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying:
Fuck
>> > your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
>> > these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go.
There's
>> > nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
>> > RIGHT NOW!!!!!
>> >
>> > Sam
>>
>> I agree, if I find I am doing something out of fear, I stop. So far, I
>> don't think I've ever been afraid to
>> leave the path. When I did leave before it was because I needed the
break
>> to figure things out and dig through my own past and see what was there I
>> could use, that kinda thing.
>
>Anne, you emailed me privately when you left eckankar. I think your
>statements above are full of crap.
>
>Lurk
>
but it would likely be misunderstood. So just follow your gut instincts.
Love
Sam
Sam
Anne
"arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3D5FA894...@charter.net...
>
>
> Anne wrote:
> >
> > "Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
> > news:gmK79.3333$XX6....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> > >
> > > The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what
this
> > > about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying:
Fuck
> > > your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet.
All
> > > these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go.
There's
> > > nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to
DEATH
> > > RIGHT NOW!!!!!
> > >
> > > Sam
> >
> > I agree, if I find I am doing something out of fear, I stop. So far, I
> > don't think I've ever been afraid to
> > leave the path. When I did leave before it was because I needed the
break
> > to figure things out and dig through my own past and see what was there
I
> > could use, that kinda thing.
>
> Anne, you emailed me privately when you left eckankar. I think your
> statements above are full of crap.
Yes, I did. Looking for support, which I found you gave with care to the
best of your ability.
I wasn't afraid Lurk. I was unhappy and lonely. I also posted on Sharon's
list some, but I wasn't afraid, I was looking for answers. I found them in
myself eventually, but that's not fear. In my post I said I don't do things
out of fear anymore. I was really unhappy at the time because I just didn't
understand my experiences. That still happens. I'm not afraid of karmic
retribution in Eckankar, I get the teaching.
Anne
Anne
"Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote in message
Thanks Sam. That's the first rule of my life now. It's always good to hear
it from others
doing the same. It takes a lot of courage to lead one's own path, but it is
the only way I have found
that works.
Love,
Anne
>
> Love
> Sam
Ken
> >
> >The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what this
> >about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying: Fuck
> >your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
> >these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go. There's
> >nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
> >RIGHT NOW!!!!!
To anyone who might be considered a fear-monger, that sounds seriously
fear-inducing. Basically, what you write here is fear-mongering towards all
fear-mongers.
(Dang it, another logical circle!)
> Despite all this, everything is in perfect order in the grand scheme of
> things. I'm going to go about my life teaching positive thinking and true
> north principles. That's what I believe in. All the greatest philosophers
> point in that direction.
That's better <G>.
Sam
Ken wrote in message ...
>Sam wrote...
>> >
>> >The thing to know Anne is this: Religion is big money. This is what this
>> >about. I'm not opposed to that idea at all, however. I'm just saying:
Fuck
>> >your fear messages. We've about had enough of these on this planet. All
>> >these goddamn fear mongerers for profit on this planet have to go.
There's
>> >nothing I can do about it, but if I were God, I'd put them all to DEATH
>> >RIGHT NOW!!!!!
>
>
>To anyone who might be considered a fear-monger, that sounds seriously
>fear-inducing. Basically, what you write here is fear-mongering towards
all
>fear-mongers.
>
>(Dang it, another logical circle!)
>
>
Well, it does logically proves that there's no way out it...... See below
>
>
>> Despite all this, everything is in perfect order in the grand scheme of
>> things. I'm going to go about my life teaching positive thinking and true
>> north principles. That's what I believe in. All the greatest philosophers
>> point in that direction.
>
>
>That's better <G>.
>
other than through pure positive thought, the basis of my philosophy. This
philosophy is the only one to consider. I don't care what the critics say,
this philosophy is the only route to success on every level.
And may the fear mongerers also someday convert to that idea.
Cheers
Sam
>
>
>
>
Ken
>
> Well, it does logically proves that there's no way out it...... See below
> >
> >
> >> Despite all this, everything is in perfect order in the grand scheme of
> >> things. I'm going to go about my life teaching positive thinking and true
> >> north principles. That's what I believe in. All the greatest philosophers
> >> point in that direction.
> >
> >
> >That's better <G>.
> >
> other than through pure positive thought, the basis of my philosophy. This
> philosophy is the only one to consider. I don't care what the critics say,
> this philosophy is the only route to success on every level.
>
> And may the fear mongerers also someday convert to that idea.
It seems to me that we have two apparent choices in this world: to
create or to destroy. One choice leads one way, the other choice
another way. One way is Life, the other death. These two apparent
choices are however inextricably linked. Like light and darkness,
positive and negative, hill and valley, one cannot exist without the
other.
And that's all there is to that.
Sam
Ken wrote in message ...
light and the creation echo, the plus element. I've started a book based on
my experiences in life and my time reading and posting here and I WILL make
tons of money on this idea, which will help me further with what I have to
offer as a teacher of SPIRIT, THE MAIN THING.
That's my attitude about life.
Sam
Joe
AFTER YOU BECOME AN ECKANKAR CLERGYMAN
1) Be a Good Little Soldier for Eck org. Never stray from the Org
party-line, and never admit that Eckankar has any flaws. Sacrifice
your conscience for the Greater Good of "Soul."
2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other deceits,
keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make sure
to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to naive
seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
Eckankar "right."
3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the money
you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp] has
given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal heathens
of joining Eckankar to get rich.
4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing to
an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who believe
you're a Very Advanced Soul.
6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is ECKANKAR.
David
> soul...@aol.com (SoulWords) wrote in message news:<20020817174437...@mb-mg.aol.com>...
> > (1) Don't do the spiritual exercises regularly.Above all, don't EVER do them
> > with a sincere, childlike, love for Spirit. God knows what might happen then!
> >
> > (2) When you do them, make a half-hearted attempt, and then whine for at least
> > 3 minutes because you didn't instantly Soul Travel.
> >
> > (3) Beleive that the Mahanta will bring you 2 million dollars, a great-looking
> > spouse, and a cure of your cancer within 6 months. If you don't get it, sue.
> >
> > (4) Beleive that Eckankar is frozen in time and continually look at it exactly
> > as it appeared to you when you joined.
> >
> > (5) Don't think that divine love is the heart of Eckankar.
> >
> > (6) Make sure to not seek out ECKists who you can be friendly with. Seek out
> > those who you dislike to prove your skepticism.
> >
> > (7) Realize that if the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not perfect, the
> > whole path has nothing to offer you.
> >
> > (8) Realize, like Groucho Marx, that any group that would want YOU to join
> > is not really worth joining anyway.
> >
> > (9) Make sure to put the group ahead of your own individual needs.
> >
> > Love, David
>
>
> AFTER YOU BECOME AN ECKANKAR CLERGYMAN
>
>
> 1) Be a Good Little Soldier for Eck org. Never stray from the Org
> party-line, and never admit that Eckankar has any flaws. Sacrifice
> your conscience for the Greater Good of "Soul."
Golly, Joe- I flunk this one. Regularly. Amazing I'm still in!
>
> 2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other deceits,
> keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make sure
> to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to naive
> seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
> Eckankar "right."
The questions I get from seekers are along the lines of
"How can I know for myself?" They are more interested in finding the
Inner Word
than in sorting through the outer ones. They don't care much about
Paul, frankly, one way of the other. If Eckankar helps them connect
with Spirit and brings them closer to a conscious awareness of divine
love, that seems
to be their focus.
>
> 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the money
> you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp] has
> given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
> will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal heathens
> of joining Eckankar to get rich.
Why don't you ask our Canadian friend, who is in charge of all
monies
in his area, how rich HE has gotten from Eckankar?
God has given me divine being- and I am eternally grateful.
>
> 4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
> unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing to
> an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
That's only because we can't do our secret ECK Ckergy
Handshake online, Joe. (just kidding)
>
> 5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
> Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who believe
> you're a Very Advanced Soul.
That's right, Joe. As I write, there is a crowd of gaping
"lower initiates' lined up outside my house, subserviently taking
pictures of my holy dwelling, and begging for autographs from
my illustrious fingers.
Truth is, humility is a requirement of getting anywhere
on the path- on ANY spiritual path. Soul equals Soul.
>
> 6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
> the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is ECKANKAR.
Yes, BS- bright science, bhatki sayings, basic spirituality.
Glad to agree with you, Joe. Thanks!
Love, David
Joe
> joe_...@hotmail.com (Joe) wrote in message news:<4ef6e483.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > soul...@aol.com (SoulWords) wrote in message news:<20020817174437...@mb-mg.aol.com>...
> > > (1) Don't do the spiritual exercises regularly.Above all, don't EVER do them
> > > with a sincere, childlike, love for Spirit. God knows what might happen then!
> > >
> > > (2) When you do them, make a half-hearted attempt, and then whine for at least
> > > 3 minutes because you didn't instantly Soul Travel.
> > >
> > > (3) Beleive that the Mahanta will bring you 2 million dollars, a great-looking
> > > spouse, and a cure of your cancer within 6 months. If you don't get it, sue.
> > >
> > > (4) Beleive that Eckankar is frozen in time and continually look at it exactly
> > > as it appeared to you when you joined.
> > >
> > > (5) Don't think that divine love is the heart of Eckankar.
> > >
> > > (6) Make sure to not seek out ECKists who you can be friendly with. Seek out
> > > those who you dislike to prove your skepticism.
> > >
> > > (7) Realize that if the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not perfect, the
> > > whole path has nothing to offer you.
> > >
> > > (8) Realize, like Groucho Marx, that any group that would want YOU to join
> > > is not really worth joining anyway.
> > >
> > > (9) Make sure to put the group ahead of your own individual needs.
> > >
> > > Love, David
> >
> >
> > AFTER YOU BECOME AN ECKANKAR CLERGYMAN
> >
> >
> > 1) Be a Good Little Soldier for Eck org. Never stray from the Org
> > party-line, and never admit that Eckankar has any flaws. Sacrifice
> > your conscience for the Greater Good of "Soul."
>
> Golly, Joe- I flunk this one. Regularly. Amazing I'm still in!
You're joking here of course.
> >
> > 2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other deceits,
> > keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make sure
> > to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to naive
> > seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
> > Eckankar "right."
>
> The questions I get from seekers are along the lines of
> "How can I know for myself?" They are more interested in finding the
> Inner Word
> than in sorting through the outer ones. They don't care much about
> Paul, frankly, one way of the other. If Eckankar helps them connect
> with Spirit and brings them closer to a conscious awareness of divine
> love, that seems
> to be their focus.
You've been here for several years -- any time a serious question
comes about about Eckankar's past, you can't meet it head on. You
never meet it head on.
And I'm sure that's exactly how you deal with Eckists in your area
that rely on you to guide them.
And that's a shame.
Apparently, we have someone new here to a.r.e. who was never told the
facts of Eckankar's history.
How many more just like her in your area? hECK, you don't care.
> >
> > 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> > Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the money
> > you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp] has
> > given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
> > will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal heathens
> > of joining Eckankar to get rich.
>
> Why don't you ask our Canadian friend, who is in charge of all
> monies
> in his area, how rich HE has gotten from Eckankar?
> God has given me divine being- and I am eternally grateful.
Good example. You can't meet hard questions about Eckankar head on,
and honestly.
Both your and the Canadian Friend keep referring to regional finances,
when I'm referring to the money Eck org of MN takes in.
Huge difference.
> >
> > 4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
> > unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing to
> > an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
>
> That's only because we can't do our secret ECK Ckergy
> Handshake online, Joe. (just kidding)
Again, you can't meet an issue head on.
> >
> > 5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
> > Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who believe
> > you're a Very Advanced Soul.
>
> That's right, Joe. As I write, there is a crowd of gaping
> "lower initiates' lined up outside my house, subserviently taking
> pictures of my holy dwelling, and begging for autographs from
> my illustrious fingers.
> Truth is, humility is a requirement of getting anywhere
> on the path- on ANY spiritual path. Soul equals Soul.
And again, you won't directly cop to the fact that lower initiates in
Eckankar DO often revere and stand in awe of Eck HIs.
Why? Because of what The Shariyat says about the awesome Spiritual
Unfoldment of the Eck HI>
> >
> > 6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
> > the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is ECKANKAR.
>
> Yes, BS- bright science, bhatki sayings, basic spirituality.
> Glad to agree with you, Joe. Thanks!
"Basic spirituality" involves the Guru telling his flock that if they
leave his religion...they will die a slow death?
Again, you dodge. You can't deal honesty with Eckankar's flaws. You
can't face any hard issues in Eckankar head on.
That's how NOT TO BE a Good Clergyman.
>
> Love, David
Sharon2000
Of course he's joking. He just doesn't realize it. He
probably honestly believes it.
And since he's here as an eckmissionary for any newbies who
somehow land here, well...all you can expect from him is the
usual cult propaganda.
>
> > >
> > > 2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other deceits,
> > > keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make
> > > sure to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to
> > > naive seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
> > > Eckankar "right."
> >
> > The questions I get from seekers are along the lines of
> > "How can I know for myself?" They are more interested in finding the
> > Inner Word
> > than in sorting through the outer ones. They don't care much about
> > Paul, frankly, one way of the other. If Eckankar helps them connect
> > with Spirit and brings them closer to a conscious awareness of divine
> > love, that seems
> > to be their focus.
>
Bullshit, David. What would your reply be if someone had heard of
the plagiarism and asked you about it? You'd probably direct them to
the Book of Marman.
Using "hu" is the sneakiest, slimiest cultic recruiting technique on
earth. It makes your cult even worse than $cientology or Heaven's Gate,
because it's so insidious, so seemingly "good". But...it's not. If "hu"
was *ever* a "holy" word, your cult has defiled it.
It's used to lull people into a suggestible state of mind, where the cultic
"teachings" can settle in and start taking over. (see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files/revhyp.html for a good
explanation of this - and in /bookmarks.html there's a link to something
called the Trance Institute that I believe has some very relevant info)
You can close your eyes and focus on the big toe, think nice thoughts, and
get the same "results". Actually, you'd get *better* results because using
the hu and focusing on the third eye, with "good" thoughts about the cult
and its Living Ninny Pseudo-Master opens you to deceptive psychic
influence, and ultimately, being controlled by Klemp, or by who/whatever is
using him. Whatever it is, it isn't good, and it's not "spiritual".
> You've been here for several years -- any time a serious question
> comes about about Eckankar's past, you can't meet it head on. You
> never meet it head on.
>
He was sort of like that privately and in the EckGestapo, too. He claimed
he was just a "consciousness watcher" and didn't really participate in all
the bullshit the others did. That doesn't make him a "good" person,
though. It simply makes him a bigger woosie than most of them.
The only comparison I can think of is a drug pusher who's made the mistake
of using too much of what he's pushing. He's like totally eckanfogged and
eckanbuzzed. He wouldn't last very long on a soap opera. He's boring.
> And I'm sure that's exactly how you deal with Eckists in your area
> that rely on you to guide them.
>
Well, because he wasn't as nasty as the others, I looked to him for
guidance here on the internet. He's basically worthless. If you've got a
big problem, he'll refer you to an Official Cult Spiritual Aide. (Although
AIDS would be more a appropriate title). When I asked how to be a better
eckmissionary here, his suggestions were things like changing the subjects
from "negative" to "positive". And he's the one who suggested that I post
a warm fuzzy story here - I liked it, but Kate made some very *real*
comments about it that made me sort of wake up a bit, see it for the warm
fuzzy thing it really was, and point out some obvious flaws in the story
that showed it couldn't be true.
Windy/Mr.Bug/Rita/Carly/jcarlton <ggg> attacked her in response - by saying
something that had just been discussed in the EckGestapo, that Kate had had
emotional or mental problems *before* she left the cult. That was
absolutely untrue, by the way, but typical of the garbage that went on in
the EckGestapo.
Kate was just *fine* when she was a cult member - and if she *wasn't*,
well, what does that say for the LEMs who "promoted" her to "high initiate"
status?
Her ex-husband, who was an HI and conducting online bookstudies right
before I came here, would verify that there was *nothing* wrong with Kate.
She did, however, suffer from PTSD after leaving - got treated, got over
it. And she had posted about that openly before I arrived here.
Kate was in the cult for a long time, one of those poor very young people
who were sucked in when Twitch started it. She was at the seminar the
night the Twitchster died boinking young Anya, too. Of course, Klemp
probably wasn't too fond of her because when Darwin started messing up, all
that screwing around, being drunk on stage, etc., she was part of that
group of HIs who objected and tried to do something about it. She didn't
hide in the darkroom like Klemp did.
> And that's a shame.
It *is* a shame - but on the other hand, at least he's not using his HI
status as a way to get young impressionable newbies in the sack. Although
that's not exactly a compliment. He does it differently. He's a woosie's
woosie, actually!
>
> Apparently, we have someone new here to a.r.e. who was never told the
> facts of Eckankar's history.
>
I missed it. I always feel sorry for those innocent newbies who wander in
here. My goodness, I remember how shocked *I* was, and I certainly don't
think I was some kind of innocent newbie. A gullible oldster is more like
it. <gg>
I wonder what Nathan's doing? I wonder if he's still watching, writing to
newbies here, telling them about the scary entities that come out of the
monitor & get you if you don't do eckprotection rituals, telling them how
David Lane is an evil KAL agent, manipulating newbies who are open & honest
& look at former members as people just like they are, who maybe just don't
understand "the teachings", which is what I thought when I came here. It
was just too obvious, Joe, that you and all the other former members who
were speaking out were NOT all those nasty things cult members are taught
about those who leave - all the stupid dumb things they say about former
members right now. They're so frigging dumb, they can't see anything other
than what the cult has indoctrinated them with.
Have to laugh about Nathan - gawd, I don't *believe* that before I came
here, I *liked* him!! Duh. I got a lot of cultic garbage from him - until
I saw the *real* Nathan here at a.r.e. It's amazing what kind of people
become "clergy" and HIs and ESAs!!! It's absolute proof that all the
cult's "inner" bullshit is just plain bullshit!!!!
> How many more just like her in your area? hECK, you don't care.
>
Hey...a couple years ago a *current* member asked if they could talk to me
on the phone, and I said okay. The funny thing was, this person knows
David Hutt personally!! And I had to laugh, because this person told me
that David had told them some stuff he "got on the inner" or something, and
although this member kept their mouth shut, they said that David was
basically clueless about them.
No - David doesn't care about people, just about numbers. That was *very*
obvious when I was leaving, and right before that when I was showing
"signs" of not being properly programmed, and he tried that bullshit
"Ghost"* story on me, telling me the Big Secret about the initiations - and
when that didn't work, just continually emphasizing that it didn't matter
if I refused all my future initiations, as long as I kept up my membership.
And *then*, adding insult to injury, that time I resigned for three days &
then went rushing back for unknown reasons (I still wonder!), I "repented"
and even sent a check, well would you believe the creep said he was glad I
saw the importance of sending money?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!
*(Anyone who hasn't seen this disgusting little incident can do a Google
search for one of the times I posted it, probably '99 or 2000, author
sharo...@my-deja.com, sharo...@myremarq.com, or sharo...@playful.com
should bring it up - use keywords Ghost, Whoopi, or "make love".
You rotten s.o.b., David -- if you only knew how sick I'd been, and how
terribly humiliating it was for me that last year, when I had absolutely
*no* money and swallowed my pride (personal responsibility, you know!!) and
wrote to MN and asked for a "charity" membership - once.
See, that's the subliminal message I got through almost 15 years of
membership - in spite of the "public" message. The message I got was that
you had to pay for your membership. If you didn't, it was *your* fault.
The cult is *constantly* asking for money - and their official policy even
strongly suggests tithing for maximum "spiritual" benefits!! (see
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/eckankartruth/files.html - I think it's the
first one, on "Cult Donations")
> > >
> > > 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> > > Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the
> > > money you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold
> > > Klemp] has given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as
> > > Co-Worker. Some will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse
> > > these Kal heathens of joining Eckankar to get rich.
> >
> > Why don't you ask our Canadian friend, who is in charge of all
> > monies
> > in his area, how rich HE has gotten from Eckankar?
> > God has given me divine being- and I am eternally grateful.
>
> Good example. You can't meet hard questions about Eckankar head on,
> and honestly.
>
> Both your and the Canadian Friend keep referring to regional finances,
> when I'm referring to the money Eck org of MN takes in.
>
> Huge difference.
>
Well, shortly after I left I spoke to an HI I'd know for a long time. I
asked her if she knew what happened to the money. She said she saw all the
books for the local/state Org, and every cent is accounted for, and
furthermore, MN does NOT give financial support to local/state orgs. I
guess she thought that last item was a point in the cult's favor!! <ggg>
MN receives, but doesn't give. Also, it doesn't have to spend much for the
main source of new members - volunteer eckanmissionaries!! There was the
organized "Love A Library" program where members donated books to
libraries, and we were even sent lists of which libraries had what, and
which libraries didnt' have any eckbooks, or whatever. Didn't cost the
cult a cent!! And...eckanmissionaries *buy* newbie freebie books, posters,
promotional brochures, and everything else they use to get new members. I
remember when the Mystic World or something suggested that we always carry
brochures with us, to give to people or just leave in public places - I
bought a package at the '98 seminar, in fact. And Harold Himself started
out doing poster routes!!!
> > >
> > > 4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
> > > unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing to
> > > an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
> >
> > That's only because we can't do our secret ECK Ckergy
> > Handshake online, Joe. (just kidding)
>
> Again, you can't meet an issue head on.
>
It's hilarious how here in public, they say initiations & "clergy" status
doesn't mean anything - but the Mystic World features pictures & articles
that point out initiation status!! Just as an example, since I had it out
recently for the Katsupari stuff, the Winter 1987 MW on page 6 has an
article on the European seminar in Holland. There are three pictures on
the page, which take up more than the text does. Top photo is "Sri Harold
Klemp with High Initiates Pat and Joseph Dogbe (RESA)", middle is "Sri
Harold Klemp with High Initiates from Togo" - with a list of their names,
RESA identified. Ditto on Bottom picture - Klemp & 6 HIs from Nigeria,
RESA identified.
But wait!!!! There's more!!!!!
On page 7, the headline "Eighth Circle Widens"
"Three High Initiates were welcomes into the Eighth Circle of Initiation at
the recent ECK Worldwide Seminar in Houseton: Marjorie Klemp, appointed
Chairman of the ECK Spiritual Council for this First Year of the Shariyat;
Eric Tamsar, also appointed to the Spiritual Council; and Joan Klemp."
Another MW picked at random, I forget why it's on my desk with the '87 MW,
the fall 1989 issue, page 3, has a photo identified as "Eighth Initiate
Helen Baird is also a member of the ECK Spiritual Council."
Hey...flipping through it, this is when they started the public "worshsip"
services!! There's an excerpt from the Summer 1989 HI Letter (printed
with Klemp's permission for lowbies) - oh, barf, this is *such* a cute
little recruiting blurb:
"The Temple of ECK---and eventually there will be many on this earth---is
to be a vortex from which the teachings of ECK go into the world. That
means we must plan how we will spread the message of ECK on this
"spiritually starved planet." We must give the message in a way that
people are used to receiving spiritual teachings; otherwise, they cannot
accept it."
I remember the bookstudy or Satsang when the "worship" services were
announced, and how we were not to refer to the "hu chant" but call it the
"hu song", and the HI said that was so new people wouldn't think we were
some kind of weird Eastern cult. And she said something that I saw
discussed more in one of the eckbooks, how "going public" with the
previously for-chelas-only hu chant was actually a "lower vibe" version,
and there would still be "high vibe" chelas only hu chants.
I wonder who decided to use the "hu" as the main recruiting promotional
"trick"? Pretty shrewd, I think!! I wonder if it was a cult member's
idea, or if a paid marketing consultant thought of it? Oh, and have I
mentioned that the "Katsupari" issue, 12/87, used the front-page headline:
"ECKANKAR, the New-Age Religion" - that one didn't last long, no doubt
because it didn't *work*. <ggg>
> > >
> > > 5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
> > > Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who
> > > believe
> > > you're a Very Advanced Soul.
> >
> > That's right, Joe. As I write, there is a crowd of gaping
> > "lower initiates' lined up outside my house, subserviently taking
> > pictures of my holy dwelling, and begging for autographs from
> > my illustrious fingers.
> > Truth is, humility is a requirement of getting anywhere
> > on the path- on ANY spiritual path. Soul equals Soul.
>
> And again, you won't directly cop to the fact that lower initiates in
> Eckankar DO often revere and stand in awe of Eck HIs.
>
> Why? Because of what The Shariyat says about the awesome Spiritual
> Unfoldment of the Eck HI>
>
David's "humility" is like Klemp's - it's phony. And that fact stands out
when you look at his posts in a "detached" way. He does a lot of bragging.
A couple of examples - his pointing out the "elite" students he <shudder>
teaches. One specifically, a high-class rich kid who he tutored, and the
kid got excellent SAT scores. He bragged about giving a speech on
spirituality at some drug-prevention conference at a NYC university. He
brags a lot, but tries to come off as "humble".
They *all* reveal themselves, and don't even realize it.
I think Lurk really hit the nail on the head, though, when he said David
was pussy-whipped!!
> > >
> > > 6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
> > > the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is ECKANKAR.
> >
> > Yes, BS- bright science, bhatki sayings, basic spirituality.
> > Glad to agree with you, Joe. Thanks!
>
You're an asshole, David.
> "Basic spirituality" involves the Guru telling his flock that if they
> leave his religion...they will die a slow death?
>
Oh, I forget where it is, but Twitch wrote some funny stuff about how even
if it doesn't look like "traitors" are suffering, they *are* inside, or
they will be in their next life!! Or rather, lives....I believe there's a
quote about the endless incarnations of suffering before "the master"
accepts them again. <ggg>
> Again, you dodge. You can't deal honesty with Eckankar's flaws. You
> can't face any hard issues in Eckankar head on.
>
> That's how NOT TO BE a Good Clergyman.
>
Well, I *do* have to laugh when I remember how the HI told me the new
"clergy" thing wasn't at all "clergy" like them thar false orthodox
religions. It was just to give HIs the opportunity to visit in hospitals &
jails & stuff, and get good parking places. <giggle>
You know, it amazes me how some former members still think that back in the
"beginning" it was about freedom, not at all a religion, etc., when that's
not true at all. It was a religion from Day One, when Twitch started it
and declared himself God on Earth - the only thing Twitch rejected about
religion was the word. Look at "Letters to a Chela" - those old discourses
that Twitch typed on an old manual typewriter - his plans are laid out
right there - and Klemp even refers to this in the Winter '87 Mystic World
- the lead article is Klemp officially declaring it a religion. I'll type
it up one of these days. (Letters to a Chela is located at
http://forums.delphiforums.com/eckankartruth - except I have to insert a
lot of the stuff I left out!!!!)
It's pretty pitiful how the cult makes "clergy" absolutely meaningless.
It's sort of like, well...if you subscribed to Reader's Digest for 20
years, does that mean you should be declared an Editor? Hey, if anyone
wants to be a "clergyman" you can get Official Clergy Status at:
http://www.ulc.org - sign up, and then have some laughs at the follow-up
mail!! They'll eventually offer you really cheap "discourses" at a
"reduced" rate!!! <ggg>
Well, I'm out of "rant" for the night!!
Hugs,
Sharon
--
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
Rich
Joe the troll wrote:
> AFTER YOU BECOME AN ECKANKAR CLERGYMAN
>
>
> 1) Be a Good Little Soldier for Eck org. Never stray from the Org
> party-line, and never admit that Eckankar has any flaws. Sacrifice
> your conscience for the Greater Good of "Soul."
>
> 2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other deceits,
> keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make sure
> to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to naive
> seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
> Eckankar "right."
>
> 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the money
> you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp] has
> given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
> will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal heathens
> of joining Eckankar to get rich.
>
> 4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
> unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing to
> an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
>
> 5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
> Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who believe
> you're a Very Advanced Soul.
>
> 6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
> the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is ECKANKAR.
Great detractors have to go so hyperbole, be so over the top, so removed
from the truth, that they loose track of what they are really saying, to
the extent that almost any objective observer over time comes to
recognize that almost everything they say is pretty much the opposite of
the reality of the situation demonstrated in this NG.
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rich
David <soul...@aol.com> wrote:
> joe_...@hotmail.com (Joe) wrote:
> > AFTER YOU BECOME AN ECKANKAR CLERGYMAN
> >
> >
> > 1) Be a Good Little Soldier for Eck org. Never stray from the Org
> > party-line, and never admit that Eckankar has any flaws. Sacrifice
> > your conscience for the Greater Good of "Soul."
>
> Golly, Joe- I flunk this one. Regularly. Amazing I'm still in!
Anyone who looks into this NG will see that just about all the Eckists
who post here seem to regularly break this rule of Joe's. Perhaps he's
reading a differnt test than we are?
> > 2) Having been made aware of Paulji's plagiarisms and other
deceits,
> > keep quiet about them, especially to those new to Eckankar. Make
sure
> > to put yourself and the Org ahead of your responsibilities to naive
> > seekers. If some have hard questions, accuse them of not doing
> > Eckankar "right."
>
> The questions I get from seekers are along the lines of
> "How can I know for myself?" They are more interested in finding the
> Inner Word
> than in sorting through the outer ones. They don't care much about
> Paul, frankly, one way of the other. If Eckankar helps them connect
> with Spirit and brings them closer to a conscious awareness of divine
> love, that seems
> to be their focus.
Shhh.. Keep quiet about this David, or the detractors will figure it
out. ;-) They don't seem to know what Eckists in this NG really do, so
let's let them keep saying the opposite and reveal their foolishness to
the true seekers.
> > 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> > Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the
money
> > you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp]
has
> > given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
> > will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal
heathens
> > of joining Eckankar to get rich.
>
> Why don't you ask our Canadian friend, who is in charge of all
> monies
> in his area, how rich HE has gotten from Eckankar?
> God has given me divine being- and I am eternally grateful.
Eckists and Harold are concerned with Love, service to Spirit and
spiritual unfoldment, while Joe focuses on his love of folding money.
> > 4) When online, don't admit you are a member of Eckankar's Clergy,
> > unless you are at a closed "Eck Members Only" club, or are writing
to
> > an ISP to get an Eck Critic's posting privileges revoked.
>
> That's only because we can't do our secret ECK Ckergy
> Handshake online, Joe. (just kidding)
It really bothers Joe that we speak as individuals and unlike many
detractors, don't tout our status or manner of service to Spirit.
> > 5) Never forget the one great benefit of High Initiate Status in
> > Eckankar: Respect and even adoration from lower initiates who
believe
> > you're a Very Advanced Soul.
>
> That's right, Joe. As I write, there is a crowd of gaping
> "lower initiates' lined up outside my house, subserviently taking
> pictures of my holy dwelling, and begging for autographs from
> my illustrious fingers.
It does get tiring fending off all the women and 'guys' seeking my
wisdom and blessings, so I usually just give in and make them my slaves.
> Truth is, humility is a requirement of getting anywhere
> on the path- on ANY spiritual path. Soul equals Soul.
Somehow it seems that our apostate friends keep missing this point.
> > 6) Realize, like Paulji did, that BS is so much more exciting than
> > the plain truth -- and that for BS, the path that serves is
ECKANKAR.
>
> Yes, BS- bright science, bhatki sayings, basic spirituality.
> Glad to agree with you, Joe. Thanks!
Yes, I agree too -- Beginning Seekers, Big Souls, Brilliantlight Sight,
Beautiful Sounds...
Torchbearer
"Joe" <joe_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ef6e483.02082...@posting.google.com...
> soul...@aol.com (David) wrote in message
news:<b694dbe7.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > joe_...@hotmail.com (Joe) wrote in message
news:<4ef6e483.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > soul...@aol.com (SoulWords) wrote in message
news:<20020817174437...@mb-mg.aol.com>...
<snip>
> > > 3) Help make Eckankar [Harold and friends] richer by being a Good
> > > Worker Bee for the Org. Never ask the Org what it does with the money
> > > you help collect. Just be glad The Sugmad on Earth [Harold Klemp] has
> > > given you Divine (unpaid of course0 Employment as Co-Worker. Some
> > > will ask where the all the Eck money goes -- accuse these Kal heathens
> > > of joining Eckankar to get rich.
> >
> > Why don't you ask our Canadian friend, who is in charge of all
> > monies
> > in his area, how rich HE has gotten from Eckankar?
> > God has given me divine being- and I am eternally grateful.
>
> Good example. You can't meet hard questions about Eckankar head on,
> and honestly.
>
> Both your and the Canadian Friend keep referring to regional finances,
> when I'm referring to the money Eck org of MN takes in.
>
> Huge difference.
I'm glad that you all are referring to me as 'friend' because I am not
interested in being anyone's enemy. <g>
Not getting very rich. Everyone that I know is a volunteer. Just think about
that; an all volunteer organization that gets things done. Wonderful people,
lots of energy, lots of love. I even know a couple of people who have left
Eckankar that still come to picnics and other types of get togethers. Lots
of love....................
Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board. I know one of the members of the
board. I also know people who used to be on the board. No rich people there
either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper manner based
on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very loving
and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
So, Joe, you are guessing what you think is going on with the finances.
Torchbearer
<snip>
> > Love, David
arelurker
All you are saying is eckankar has free labor. However, I do think
eckists are paid....they are paid with ego currency.
I even know a couple of people who have left
> Eckankar that still come to picnics and other types of get togethers. Lots
> of love....................
>
> Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
Is it a puppet board?
> I know one of the members of the
> board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if they
wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks and balances.
No rich people there
> either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper manner based
> on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very loving
> and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
That's what people use to say with Darwin, eh? Same trust and love. In
the context of what has happened in the past, this looks more like
naivety and gullibility.
Torchbearer
>
>
> Torchbearer wrote:
<snip>
> > Not getting very rich. Everyone that I know is a volunteer. Just think
about
> > that; an all volunteer organization that gets things done. Wonderful
people,
> > lots of energy, lots of love.
>
> All you are saying is eckankar has free labor. However, I do think
> eckists are paid....they are paid with ego currency.
There are people with egos everywhere, no doubt about that. I am not aware
of any within the group of people that I work with. It's all from the heart
because they believe in what they are doing.
<snip>
> > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
>
> Is it a puppet board?
Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
> > I know one of the members of the
> > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
>
> Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if they
> wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks and
balances.
I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There is no
desire for that to happen though.
> No rich people there
> > either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper manner
based
> > on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very
loving
> > and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
>
> That's what people use to say with Darwin, eh? Same trust and love. In
> the context of what has happened in the past, this looks more like
> naivety and gullibility.
No, it is based on personal knowledge. I know the people that I am talking
about, as I said before.
Torchbearer
arelurker
Torchbearer wrote:
>
> "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:3D66333C...@charter.net...
> >
> >
> > Torchbearer wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Not getting very rich. Everyone that I know is a volunteer. Just think
> about
> > > that; an all volunteer organization that gets things done. Wonderful
> people,
> > > lots of energy, lots of love.
> >
> > All you are saying is eckankar has free labor. However, I do think
> > eckists are paid....they are paid with ego currency.
>
> There are people with egos everywhere, no doubt about that. I am not aware
> of any within the group of people that I work with. It's all from the heart
> because they believe in what they are doing.
That is a common thing in cults....to get free labor to spread the word.
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
> >
> > Is it a puppet board?
>
> Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
What stories are those?
>
> > > I know one of the members of the
> > > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
> >
> > Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if they
> > wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> > giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks and
> balances.
>
> I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There is no
> desire for that to happen though.
You having no doubt it "could" is different than if it really can
happpen. It is a straight forward question. Why not ask these former
board members and let's find out for sure.
>
> > No rich people there
> > > either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper manner
> based
> > > on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very
> loving
> > > and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
> >
> > That's what people use to say with Darwin, eh? Same trust and love. In
> > the context of what has happened in the past, this looks more like
> > naivety and gullibility.
>
> No, it is based on personal knowledge. I know the people that I am talking
> about, as I said before.
Yes but you don't know any facts.
Lurk
>
> Torchbearer
Ken
"Sam" <Sam@Be&Do.or.g> wrote ...
> >
Ken wrote...
> >It seems to me that we have two apparent choices in this world: to
> >create or to destroy. One choice leads one way, the other choice
> >another way. One way is Life, the other death. These two apparent
> >choices are however inextricably linked. Like light and darkness,
> >positive and negative, hill and valley, one cannot exist without the
> >other.
> >
> >And that's all there is to that.
> >
> >
> True enough, Ken. When all the mental scores have been settled, I prefer
> light and the creation echo, the plus element. I've started a book based on
> my experiences in life and my time reading and posting here and I WILL make
> tons of money on this idea, which will help me further with what I have to
> offer as a teacher of SPIRIT, THE MAIN THING.
>
> That's my attitude about life.
The best advice I ever heard on making money: Help other people get
what they need, and they will help you get what you need.
Also: Give to live.
Ken
> Torchbearer wrote:
> >
> > No, it is based on personal knowledge. I know the people that I am talking
> > about, as I said before.
Lurk wrote...
>
> Yes but you don't know any facts.
Ah . . . <sigh>
Nevermind.
Torchbearer
>
>
> Torchbearer wrote:
> >
> > "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D66333C...@charter.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > Torchbearer wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > Not getting very rich. Everyone that I know is a volunteer. Just
think
> > about
> > > > that; an all volunteer organization that gets things done. Wonderful
> > people,
> > > > lots of energy, lots of love.
> > >
> > > All you are saying is eckankar has free labor. However, I do think
> > > eckists are paid....they are paid with ego currency.
> >
> > There are people with egos everywhere, no doubt about that. I am not
aware
> > of any within the group of people that I work with. It's all from the
heart
> > because they believe in what they are doing.
>
> That is a common thing in cults....to get free labor to spread the word.
Yes, I've heard that as well. In this case the people are working in much
the same way as the volunteers in many other organizations that I have
worked with that are not religion based.
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
> > >
> > > Is it a puppet board?
> >
> > Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
>
> What stories are those?
<LOL> Good one, as if I am going to share them with you.
> > > > I know one of the members of the
> > > > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
> > >
> > > Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if they
> > > wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> > > giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks and
> > balances.
> >
> > I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There is
no
> > desire for that to happen though.
>
> You having no doubt it "could" is different than if it really can
> happpen. It is a straight forward question. Why not ask these former
> board members and let's find out for sure.
Next time that I see one I will try to remember to ask. :-)
> > > No rich people there
> > > > either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper
manner
> > based
> > > > on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very
> > loving
> > > > and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
> > >
> > > That's what people use to say with Darwin, eh? Same trust and love. In
> > > the context of what has happened in the past, this looks more like
> > > naivety and gullibility.
> >
> > No, it is based on personal knowledge. I know the people that I am
talking
> > about, as I said before.
>
> Yes but you don't know any facts.
>
> Lurk
This reminds me of the old TV show, Dragnet. "Just the facts, Mam." <g> You
are wrong, I know some facts. Don't ask me for them, I won't share them with
you. You do not have the right to know. If you really think that it is that
important, why don't you join, spend the years learning, work your way up in
the religion and finally one day become a board member and find out for
yourself. This is what the people that I know have done. Since they have
done it anyone can get there. By the time you get there you will have had
experiences in your life that will have profoundly changed you. Ah, here I
go using my imagination to create an image that is maybe not what you really
want ............... truth. Am I wrong?
Torchbearer
Torchbearer
"Ken" <kah...@att.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:QrN99.2192$p%3.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<LOL> <LOL>
Torchbearer
arelurker
Yes, in and of itself this may not be a problem. But when combined with
the other cultic elements so prevelent in eckankar, well...it comes off
as a cultic.
>
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
> > > >
> > > > Is it a puppet board?
> > >
> > > Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
> >
> > What stories are those?
>
> <LOL> Good one, as if I am going to share them with you.
Yes asking you to substantiate your comments laughable on my part. I
guess I'm suppose to just take your word for it and not ask too many
questions. Yo might be confusing me with a new chela or something.
>
> > > > > I know one of the members of the
> > > > > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
> > > >
> > > > Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if they
> > > > wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> > > > giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks and
> > > balances.
> > >
> > > I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There is
> no
> > > desire for that to happen though.
> >
> > You having no doubt it "could" is different than if it really can
> > happpen. It is a straight forward question. Why not ask these former
> > board members and let's find out for sure.
>
> Next time that I see one I will try to remember to ask. :-)
Make sure you report back to me, eh? (I got a feeling that ain't going
to happen.)
>
> > > > No rich people there
> > > > > either. I'm satisfied that the money is being used in a proper
> manner
> > > based
> > > > > on my knowledge of the people that I personally know. They are very
> > > loving
> > > > > and ethical people. Loving and ethical goes together very well.
> > > >
> > > > That's what people use to say with Darwin, eh? Same trust and love. In
> > > > the context of what has happened in the past, this looks more like
> > > > naivety and gullibility.
> > >
> > > No, it is based on personal knowledge. I know the people that I am
> talking
> > > about, as I said before.
> >
> > Yes but you don't know any facts.
> >
> > Lurk
>
> This reminds me of the old TV show, Dragnet. "Just the facts, Mam." <g> You
> are wrong, I know some facts. Don't ask me for them, I won't share them with
> you. You do not have the right to know.
Eckists have a right to know whether Harold has absolute power and a
puppet board that can't oust him if he starts to taking a liking to
bridges again.
If you really think that it is that
> important, why don't you join, spend the years learning, work your way up in
> the religion and finally one day become a board member and find out for
> yourself. This is what the people that I know have done. Since they have
> done it anyone can get there. By the time you get there you will have had
> experiences in your life that will have profoundly changed you. Ah, here I
> go using my imagination to create an image that is maybe not what you really
> want ............... truth. Am I wrong?
Looks like you'll say anything to avoid the issue.
Lurk
>
> Torchbearer
Michael
"Ken" <kah...@att.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:QrN99.2192$p%3.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
It's the word, hey?
Lurk is practising to dumb down his Ass... <G>
Love
Michael
>
>
Michael
"Torchbearer" <Cana...@Canada.ca> wrote in message
news:AtR99.202$xc2....@news0.telusplanet.net...
> >
> > Lurk
>
> This reminds me of the old TV show, Dragnet. "Just the facts, Mam." <g>
Look... Lurk's mind is made up... Don't confuse it with facts!
Love
Michael
Torchbearer
I think that I have seen this whole cult debate between you and others in
this newsgroup for some years now. No need for me to repeat the cycle. You
can if you want <G> but you will do it by yourself. I have always considered
you the champion of mind games. This is a complement and not intended as an
insult. I have watched you take well meaning people around and around and
then back to the beginning again. Suffice it to say, I do not consider
Eckankar to be a cult because I am free to be me. You on the other hand are
very entitled to disagree with this and present all your "facts" to prove
your side. Cult today seems to be the word used to describe anything that is
different from what *I* (you, they) believe. Let us agree to disagree on
whether or not Eckankar is a cult. I do not believe that it is a cult. I
don't know a single person who volunteers for Eckankar that does it for any
reason other than they enjoy doing it. This is the same as for the other
organizations that I have worked for as I said earlier.
> > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > > > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it a puppet board?
> > > >
> > > > Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
> > >
> > > What stories are those?
> >
> > <LOL> Good one, as if I am going to share them with you.
>
> Yes asking you to substantiate your comments laughable on my part. I
> guess I'm suppose to just take your word for it and not ask too many
> questions. Yo might be confusing me with a new chela or something.
New chelas, old chelas, any chelas can ask and expect an answer. I get
answers if I ask. This is different from what I read from various
individuals here on this newsgroup. That is why I am posting here now. I
went out there and found the truth and it is not what some individuals are
presenting here. I ask and I receive. If I am asked by a Chela, I will do my
best to find the answer. If I am asked by a person that I do not know on a
newsgroup, I will not answer but instead will suggest that they go to their
local clergy and ask. When I ask my local clergy, I get an answer.
> > > > > > I know one of the members of the
> > > > > > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if
they
> > > > > wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> > > > > giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks
and
> > > > balances.
> > > >
> > > > I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There
is
> > no
> > > > desire for that to happen though.
> > >
> > > You having no doubt it "could" is different than if it really can
> > > happpen. It is a straight forward question. Why not ask these former
> > > board members and let's find out for sure.
> >
> > Next time that I see one I will try to remember to ask. :-)
>
> Make sure you report back to me, eh? (I got a feeling that ain't going
> to happen.)
I'm curious how the answer would be presented to me so I will ask (if I
don't forget) and I will let you know.
If any Eckist really wants to know anything at all about Eckankar, they can
find out. This is what I have learned for myself. There is nothing special
about me so if I can do it so can any Eckist. The reference to Harold and
bridges must be the touching story that he tells in one of his books about
his spiritual journey. He makes no secret about the fact that he was out of
balance for a period of time. I have a dear friend who was out of balance
for a period of time as well and now is all right again. They do not think
that it will happen again but I think it would hurt them to have the matter
brought up over and over again. You see, mental illness is an illness and
depending on what the nature of the illness is, many times once cured it is
cured for the rest of the individual's life. It is sad that there are people
in our society that will not allow the person who experienced the illness to
move on. These people will keep trying to draw the person back to what they
did while they were ill. Was Harold mentally ill during this time? That is
between his doctors and himself. I have not seen any evidence of mental
problems. I haven't heard of any mental problems since he has been the LEM.
>
> If you really think that it is that
> > important, why don't you join, spend the years learning, work your way
up in
> > the religion and finally one day become a board member and find out for
> > yourself. This is what the people that I know have done. Since they have
> > done it anyone can get there. By the time you get there you will have
had
> > experiences in your life that will have profoundly changed you. Ah, here
I
> > go using my imagination to create an image that is maybe not what you
really
> > want ............... truth. Am I wrong?
>
> Looks like you'll say anything to avoid the issue.
>
> Lurk
Not at all. I am clearly saying that you are not entitled to the
information.
Torchbearer
arelurker
I disagree. There is specific criteria established to gauge whether
something is a cult. Eckankar fits the criteria.
Let us agree to disagree on
> whether or not Eckankar is a cult.
That's fine.
I do not believe that it is a cult. I
> don't know a single person who volunteers for Eckankar that does it for any
> reason other than they enjoy doing it.
Really, not a single person? So nobody your know thinks their initiation
schedule will be effected by level of involvement? I find that hard to
believe considering what I saw in eckankar.
This is the same as for the other
> organizations that I have worked for as I said earlier.
>
> > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Eckankar in the U.S. is run by a board.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it a puppet board?
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on the stories that I have been told; no.
> > > >
> > > > What stories are those?
> > >
> > > <LOL> Good one, as if I am going to share them with you.
> >
> > Yes asking you to substantiate your comments laughable on my part. I
> > guess I'm suppose to just take your word for it and not ask too many
> > questions. Yo might be confusing me with a new chela or something.
>
> New chelas, old chelas, any chelas can ask and expect an answer. I get
> answers if I ask. This is different from what I read from various
> individuals here on this newsgroup. That is why I am posting here now. I
> went out there and found the truth and it is not what some individuals are
> presenting here. I ask and I receive. If I am asked by a Chela, I will do my
> best to find the answer. If I am asked by a person that I do not know on a
> newsgroup, I will not answer but instead will suggest that they go to their
> local clergy and ask. When I ask my local clergy, I get an answer.
That's fine you don't have to tell me, but then it makes little sense to
dispute or refute what you see people saying here on this newsgroup if
you are not going to reveal what you know. You're simply telling us you
know the answer and it is different and you will not say why nor submit
your "facts" for scrutiny.
>
> > > > > > > I know one of the members of the
> > > > > > > board. I also know people who used to be on the board.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ask these people if they had the power to get rid of Harold, if
> they
> > > > > > wanted to. If not, then their just a rubber stamp board for Harold
> > > > > > giving the illusion to folks like yourself that there are checks
> and
> > > > > balances.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no doubt that if they really wanted to it could happen. There
> is
> > > no
> > > > > desire for that to happen though.
> > > >
> > > > You having no doubt it "could" is different than if it really can
> > > > happpen. It is a straight forward question. Why not ask these former
> > > > board members and let's find out for sure.
> > >
> > > Next time that I see one I will try to remember to ask. :-)
> >
> > Make sure you report back to me, eh? (I got a feeling that ain't going
> > to happen.)
>
> I'm curious how the answer would be presented to me so I will ask (if I
> don't forget) and I will let you know.
Will you report it even if it turns out to be a puppet board?
I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
They do not think
> that it will happen again but I think it would hurt them to have the matter
> brought up over and over again. You see, mental illness is an illness and
> depending on what the nature of the illness is, many times once cured it is
> cured for the rest of the individual's life. It is sad that there are people
> in our society that will not allow the person who experienced the illness to
> move on.
While I agree with your comments here about mental illness and bringing
it up time again, I have a different viewpoint with regards to the
moving on part. I don't view Harold as having moved on or as curing
himself. I see much of his mental unbalanced nature in his writings. Not
to mention his bouts with what I see as psychosomatic illness he had in
the nineties. Anyone, who upholds, maintains, and adds to the rhetoric
found in eckankar is unbalanced in my opinion.
These people will keep trying to draw the person back to what they
> did while they were ill. Was Harold mentally ill during this time? That is
> between his doctors and himself. I have not seen any evidence of mental
> problems. I haven't heard of any mental problems since he has been the LEM.
We just disagree about this. If you study the narcissism and
grandiosity of gurus you'll begin to see a pattern emerge that is
prevalent in Klemp. And normally, I don't keep reiterating about
someone's mental illness, but Klemp happens to be in a position of
responsibility where he has influence over lots of people and the
grandiose way he presents himself is unbalanced.
Is Harold still talking to you guys via a television screen?
>
> >
> > If you really think that it is that
> > > important, why don't you join, spend the years learning, work your way
> up in
> > > the religion and finally one day become a board member and find out for
> > > yourself. This is what the people that I know have done. Since they have
> > > done it anyone can get there. By the time you get there you will have
> had
> > > experiences in your life that will have profoundly changed you. Ah, here
> I
> > > go using my imagination to create an image that is maybe not what you
> really
> > > want ............... truth. Am I wrong?
> >
> > Looks like you'll say anything to avoid the issue.
> >
> > Lurk
>
> Not at all. I am clearly saying that you are not entitled to the
> information.
That's fine, but then there is no reason to act as though you can debate
or refute what others say here.
Lurk
>
> Torchbearer
Torchbearer
<snip the stuff that is in the thread>
>>Torchbearer said:
> > I think that I have seen this whole cult debate between you and others
in
> > this newsgroup for some years now. No need for me to repeat the cycle.
You
> > can if you want <G> but you will do it by yourself. I have always
considered
> > you the champion of mind games. This is a complement and not intended as
an
> > insult. I have watched you take well meaning people around and around
and
> > then back to the beginning again. Suffice it to say, I do not consider
> > Eckankar to be a cult because I am free to be me. You on the other hand
are
> > very entitled to disagree with this and present all your "facts" to
prove
> > your side. Cult today seems to be the word used to describe anything
that is
> > different from what *I* (you, they) believe.
>
> I disagree. There is specific criteria established to gauge whether
> something is a cult. Eckankar fits the criteria.
I disagree but this has been debated here between you and many others in the
past so I leave that for people to research for themselves.
>
>
> Let us agree to disagree on
> > whether or not Eckankar is a cult.
>
> That's fine.
>
> I do not believe that it is a cult. I
> > don't know a single person who volunteers for Eckankar that does it for
any
> > reason other than they enjoy doing it.
>
> Really, not a single person? So nobody your know thinks their initiation
> schedule will be effected by level of involvement? I find that hard to
> believe considering what I saw in eckankar.
It would seem that your experience is different than my experience if you
were a member of Eckankar and thought that your initiation schedule was
affected by your level of involvement. I have no such concern.
The reason to dispute or refute what I see people saying here on this
newsgroup is to show our readers that there is indeed another experience
other than the one that is being put forward by people who for their own
reasons do not like Eckankar. Anyone can find the truth in what I say by
following my example and seeing for themselves. I wondered if there was
truth to what was being said and I went out and found out for myself. Now I
don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal what I
found out and invite others to do the same.
Cured? Who said he was sick? Is nervous exhaustion an illness? How about a
nervous breakdown? How about the thing that happens when someone does not
sleep or eat properly for a long period of time. Maybe it *was* mental
illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know that know
Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him. (did I use
the word 'know' too often? <g>) He was physically ill for a period of time
but even that has passed to the best of my knowledge. Oh, OK, maybe that is
what you meant by cured.
>
>
> They do not think
> > that it will happen again but I think it would hurt them to have the
matter
> > brought up over and over again. You see, mental illness is an illness
and
> > depending on what the nature of the illness is, many times once cured it
is
> > cured for the rest of the individual's life. It is sad that there are
people
> > in our society that will not allow the person who experienced the
illness to
> > move on.
>
> While I agree with your comments here about mental illness and bringing
> it up time again, I have a different viewpoint with regards to the
> moving on part. I don't view Harold as having moved on or as curing
> himself. I see much of his mental unbalanced nature in his writings. Not
> to mention his bouts with what I see as psychosomatic illness he had in
> the nineties. Anyone, who upholds, maintains, and adds to the rhetoric
> found in eckankar is unbalanced in my opinion.
Oh, Ok, I talked about that above. I love the rights that we have in the
western world. The rights to our opinions.
> These people will keep trying to draw the person back to what they
> > did while they were ill. Was Harold mentally ill during this time? That
is
> > between his doctors and himself. I have not seen any evidence of mental
> > problems. I haven't heard of any mental problems since he has been the
LEM.
>
> We just disagree about this. If you study the narcissism and
> grandiosity of gurus you'll begin to see a pattern emerge that is
> prevalent in Klemp. And normally, I don't keep reiterating about
> someone's mental illness, but Klemp happens to be in a position of
> responsibility where he has influence over lots of people and the
> grandiose way he presents himself is unbalanced.
>
> Is Harold still talking to you guys via a television screen?
I have heard him on my computer; does that count? :-)
I do believe that I have detected a high note of caring for others in your
statement above. I may disagree with you but I bow to love and caring when
exibited.
Debating and refuting was not really my goal. Only to report the facts that
I have uncovered in my journey through Eckankar. I uncovered them by pushing
forward and asking questions. Volunteering and leaning to know people. Along
the way I have uncovered many truths about other religions that I was blind
to in the past. I have made many friends in many faiths and it is because of
my involvement in Eckankar that this has occurred. Of course, I want to
share this in the newgroup to show that there are many sides to the story.
:-)
Torchbearer
arelurker
Actually, no eckists has actually gone through the criteria and refuted
or debated that points I have made about how eckankar fits many of the
points on the cult criteria list.
You'll simply be another who says they disagree and refuse to back it
up.
That, in itself, is telling.
>
> >
> >
> > Let us agree to disagree on
> > > whether or not Eckankar is a cult.
> >
> > That's fine.
> >
> > I do not believe that it is a cult. I
> > > don't know a single person who volunteers for Eckankar that does it for
> any
> > > reason other than they enjoy doing it.
> >
> > Really, not a single person? So nobody your know thinks their initiation
> > schedule will be effected by level of involvement? I find that hard to
> > believe considering what I saw in eckankar.
>
> It would seem that your experience is different than my experience if you
> were a member of Eckankar and thought that your initiation schedule was
> affected by your level of involvement. I have no such concern.
I never thought that, I observed it happening in the areas where I was involved.
First of all, we're not talking about experience here, we're talking
about a material fact about the construction eckankar's board of
directors and whether they have any real power. Real power being defined
as having the facilities to oust Klemp if they so choose. According to
Darwin, in his avadavit papers and letter that were posted on the
internet, Klemp stripped that board of power after he took power. The
same vehicle Klemp used to take over eckankar was rendered powerless by
Klemp.
So you come along and say you think the board has power, yet you say
your will ask someone when you see them if they can oust Klemp.
Anyone can find the truth in what I say by
> following my example and seeing for themselves.
To really find out one would have to see the bylaws. Do you think
eckankar would let someone have the bylaws in their corporate charter? I
don't.
Even board members, I think, would hesitate to admit they were puppets.
Nobody likes to admit their someone's stooge.
I wondered if there was
> truth to what was being said and I went out and found out for myself.
That's great. But in order for me to evaluate the veracity of you
findings I have to know something about them, which you refuse to reveal.
Now I
> don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal what I
> found out and invite others to do the same.
This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
carting him out of the airport.
> Is nervous exhaustion an illness? How about a
> nervous breakdown?
Yes.
How about the thing that happens when someone does not
> sleep or eat properly for a long period of time.
Yes.
Maybe it *was* mental
> illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know that know
> Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
so their perceptions are suspect.
(did I use
> the word 'know' too often? <g>) He was physically ill for a period of time
> but even that has passed to the best of my knowledge. Oh, OK, maybe that is
> what you meant by cured.
I was simple rephrasing your comment that Harold is alright now.
Thank you, I'm sincere.
That's all well and good, but you're simply expressing your opinion and
not backing it up with anything. No one has any good reason to believe
anything you say. You say you heard stories from people. That's not any
kind of substantiation of you viewpoint. If you want people to believe
your viewpoints are accurate, more information has to be offered. But
you choose not to, which is fine, but then you opinions get put into the
category of unsubstantiated opinions.
You notion that people can get a straight answer within the ranks of
eckankar, I am extremely suspicious of considering eckankar's penchant
for covering up.
Lurk
> :-)
>
> Torchbearer
Torchbearer
You and I agree that neither one of us thought that our initiation schedule
was affected by our level of involvement. My observation is different from
yours in the areas where I am involved. Perhaps the areas where I am
involved are different than the areas where you were involved.
<snip, I can't stand these huge long posts when you can go back and read the
thread if you are interested>
> >
> > The reason to dispute or refute what I see people saying here on this
> > newsgroup is to show our readers that there is indeed another experience
> > other than the one that is being put forward by people who for their own
> > reasons do not like Eckankar.
>
> First of all, we're not talking about experience here, we're talking
> about a material fact about the construction eckankar's board of
> directors and whether they have any real power. Real power being defined
> as having the facilities to oust Klemp if they so choose. According to
> Darwin, in his avadavit papers and letter that were posted on the
> internet, Klemp stripped that board of power after he took power. The
> same vehicle Klemp used to take over eckankar was rendered powerless by
> Klemp.
>
> So you come along and say you think the board has power, yet you say
> your will ask someone when you see them if they can oust Klemp.
Yes. I thought that was what you wanted. If you would rather that I didn't,
I won't.
>> Anyone can find the truth in what I say by
> > following my example and seeing for themselves.
>
> To really find out one would have to see the bylaws. Do you think
> eckankar would let someone have the bylaws in their corporate charter? I
> don't.
>
> Even board members, I think, would hesitate to admit they were puppets.
> Nobody likes to admit their someone's stooge.
I am beginning to see the old Lurk mind game process here. You are good at
it. I used to like playing mind games once myself. I don't know if I am as
good at it as you are though. I can't imagine the men that I know ever being
anyone's stooge. <LOL>
>> I wondered if there was
> > truth to what was being said and I went out and found out for myself.
>
> That's great. But in order for me to evaluate the veracity of you
> findings I have to know something about them, which you refuse to reveal.
Of course I am not going to tell you *all*. You don't have the right to know
*all*. Knowing *all* is something that you have to earn. Even I don't know
*all*. I only know what I have experienced. I know where the standards that
I work by come from. I know some of the people. The things that I know
differ from the things that are presented on this newgroup by some
individuals. I have found Eckankar by and large to be a fine, ethical and
spiritual teaching. I have learned this through personal involvement and
effort. You did not have the same experience as I and that is fine.
>
>
>> Now I
> > don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal what
I
> > found out and invite others to do the same.
>
> This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
> run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
Ah, but you do not know me. You make this statement based on your own
frustration. This is a straight answer. Just not the one you want.
<snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
> > >
> > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> >
> > Cured? Who said he was sick?
>
> The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
> carting him out of the airport.
I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from the
airport were not doctors. I do believe that he was placed in the hospital to
make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to mean that
he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
> > Is nervous exhaustion an illness? How about a
> > nervous breakdown?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> How about the thing that happens when someone does not
> > sleep or eat properly for a long period of time.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Maybe it *was* mental
> > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know that
know
> > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
>
> These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
> so their perceptions are suspect.
It would seem that you do not understand what people think that Harold is.
You're welcome.
I am expressing my opinion based on my experiences. I am also expressing my
opinion based on the experiences of people who are my friends. You and I are
in the same boat when it comes to expressing our viewpoints. The debates
about the 'evidence' is endless when it comes to Eckankar's past. I can only
comment on what I have researched and experienced for myself. I leave it to
others to discuss what I have not witnessed.
I trust the answers that I receive because of my experience with the source.
If the person has proven him/her self to me than until I see otherwise, I
must trust the person. I suppose anyone can be fooled but I have no evidence
of that here. Just the opposite in fact.
I support anyone's right to question. It helps to keep everything in
balance.
Torchbearer
Sharon2000
> "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:3D6E31F7...@charter.net...
> >
> >
> > Torchbearer wrote:
> > >
> > > "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3D6974E4...@charter.net...
> > >
> > > <snip the stuff that is in the thread>
> > >
> > > >>Torchbearer said:
>
> <snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
>
> > > >
> > > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> > >
> > > Cured? Who said he was sick?
> >
He tells his version in "Child In The Wilderness". See the chapter titled
"Off the Deep End" - pg 166 he's withdrawing all the money from his savings
account, and comments on the scent of roses which he believes indicates the
presence of an eckmaster. <gg>
Maybe he should've checked with an HI <gg> about that "inner voice" that
told him "By now my divine mission to help Paul with ECKANKAR was becoming
very clear." He continues... "Of course, it never really dawned on me
that I was very out of balance at that moment."
> > The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
> > carting him out of the airport.
>
> I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from the
> airport were not doctors.
Right - the police hauled him away.
I do believe that he was placed in the hospital
> to make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to
> mean that he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
>
The assistant d.a. gave him a choice to commit himself, or be charged with
disturbing the peace. He writes that the door was mysteriously blown open
and that was <ggg> "the Mahanta speaking through the ECK-Vidya."
He wasn't released because he was OK. After a night in the mental
institution where he battled entities <ggg> he reports "I would have liked
to talk with someone about the experience, as a child might share a
nightmare with a parent, but ironically, the hospital was hardly the time
or place. What purpose would it serve to call the doctors' attention to
more problems they would likely not understand anyway? Weren't there
already enough? So I chose to play the game and be a star patient:
maintain a low profile and keep my spirits up no matter what came in the
say of treatment. Soon the doctors would release me, seeing that I posed
no threat to the established order. That was my plan to regain freedom.
By playing the game, I hoped to beat it." pg. 201
So, Klemp says "Certainly my own problem was barely lukewarm before I had
concocted a plan to speed my departure from the hospital: to play the
game."
When Don, the social worker from whom Klemp had hidden the discourses in
the trash while distracting him with "public" eckbooks, stops by to see how
Klemp had slept, Klemp says he guarded his words - "the Mahanta was using
this occasion in the hospital to quicken my appreciation for the Law of
Silence."
Klemp wasn't going to take the chance of telling them about the *other*
patient who'd been possessed by evil spirits. <gg>
This is funny - Klemp's next comment is one of the main precepts of the
cult, especially in public: "My intent at the moment was not to reveal
anything of a negative quality."
Oh!!! This is funny!!! Klemp gets a new roommate!! He doesn't mention if
this old gent is an ECKist, but it sounds like it!! "...he amused himself
by looking at invisible things on the ceiling and talking to them."
<giggle>
You know, it seems to me I've already posted large portions of this story
in the past.
> > > Is nervous exhaustion an illness? How about a
> > > nervous breakdown?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
Paranoia is an illness. So is schizophrenia.
> >
> > How about the thing that happens when someone does not
> > > sleep or eat properly for a long period of time.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >> Maybe it *was* mental
> > > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know
> > > that
> know
> > > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
> >
Well, Klemp is *still* controlling the weather. That's why he was arrested
at the airport. "In a loud voice, I said "Unless I say this, the fog
cannot lift and more flights will be delayed."
Well...the fog *did* lift after he said this!! <ggg>
He's learned a lot since then. He doesn't rant like a lunatic & start
stripping in airports anymore. When he wants a heat wave, he just sends
out pink slips!!
He's still gotta work on that fire stuff, though. It Is Written that
wildfires broke out in California after he spoke at an eckseminar. And
just talking about fires from the stage causes wires to short out and
threaten the lives of everyone attending.
> > These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
> > so their perceptions are suspect.
>
> It would seem that you do not understand what people think that Harold
> is.
>
People think Harold is *exactly* what he and the cult's "teachings" say he
is. Master of the Universe!
But, like Harold plotting to regain his freedom, they've realized there are
just *some* things you don't talk about to non-members, unless you want to
get locked up.
Haven't you been reading the books and discourses?
Gee, these long "discussions" *do* get messy, don't they?
Sharon
--
Fluffy Bear
"Joe" <joe_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ef6e483.02082...@posting.google.com...
arelurker
Look Torch, the process of giving initiations in eckankar involves a
computer in the home office and gathering field information from HI's.
The computer tracks the length of membership, etc. and the field
information is suppose to be recommendations based upon the HI's
judgment. What the Hi's have to make a judgment about is the
consciousness level of the person who is up for an initiation. So, what
do HI's use as criteria to evaluate a candidate? I would suggest first
and foremost is what feeds their ego. Let me explain.
HI's are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met on this
earth. They are imbued with a sense of spiritual superiority. The common
goal or focus of eckankar on a national and local level is to recruit
new members. The HI's on a local level have two motivating factors for
recruiting: First it makes them look good to the higher ups to have a
thriving area with many recruits and they can't be Chiefs unless they
have indians.
So when it comes down to evaluating a person's conscious level and their
readiness for the next consciousness level, don't you think those who do
"postering," who do "intos" who otherwise tow the party line and do not
challenge the status quo in eckankar will be given rave reviews by these
HI's. I do because they have something to gain from it.
Perhaps if you start viewing the eckankar system for what it really is:
a spiritual company set up like a multilevel marketing company where
where the HI's get residual spiritual capital (ego) from their
downlines.
>
> <snip, I can't stand these huge long posts when you can go back and read the
> thread if you are interested>
>
> > >
> > > The reason to dispute or refute what I see people saying here on this
> > > newsgroup is to show our readers that there is indeed another experience
> > > other than the one that is being put forward by people who for their own
> > > reasons do not like Eckankar.
> >
> > First of all, we're not talking about experience here, we're talking
> > about a material fact about the construction eckankar's board of
> > directors and whether they have any real power. Real power being defined
> > as having the facilities to oust Klemp if they so choose. According to
> > Darwin, in his avadavit papers and letter that were posted on the
> > internet, Klemp stripped that board of power after he took power. The
> > same vehicle Klemp used to take over eckankar was rendered powerless by
> > Klemp.
> >
> > So you come along and say you think the board has power, yet you say
> > your will ask someone when you see them if they can oust Klemp.
>
> Yes. I thought that was what you wanted. If you would rather that I didn't,
> I won't.
No please ask. But you seem to be so sure of the board having power when
before you asked.
>
> >> Anyone can find the truth in what I say by
> > > following my example and seeing for themselves.
> >
> > To really find out one would have to see the bylaws. Do you think
> > eckankar would let someone have the bylaws in their corporate charter? I
> > don't.
> >
> > Even board members, I think, would hesitate to admit they were puppets.
> > Nobody likes to admit their someone's stooge.
>
> I am beginning to see the old Lurk mind game process here. You are good at
> it. I used to like playing mind games once myself. I don't know if I am as
> good at it as you are though. I can't imagine the men that I know ever being
> anyone's stooge. <LOL>
The point is, even if you ask a board member, their not going to admit
their powerless. That could come into play. However, to really find out
for yourself, it would behoove you to request a copy of the bylaws to
see exactly how the power structure in eckankar is set up.
I think this is totally appropriate considering the former master was
supposedly corrupt and everyone thought he was a godman and trusted him
too. Where is the mind game in this?
>
> >> I wondered if there was
> > > truth to what was being said and I went out and found out for myself.
> >
> > That's great. But in order for me to evaluate the veracity of you
> > findings I have to know something about them, which you refuse to reveal.
>
> Of course I am not going to tell you *all*. You don't have the right to know
> *all*. Knowing *all* is something that you have to earn.
Someone has to earn the right to get you to substantiate your opinions?
That's strange. Get off your high horse.
Even I don't know
> *all*. I only know what I have experienced.
And your experience is a mystery to everyone else.
I know where the standards that
> I work by come from. I know some of the people. The things that I know
> differ from the things that are presented on this newgroup by some
> individuals. I have found Eckankar by and large to be a fine, ethical and
> spiritual teaching. I have learned this through personal involvement and
> effort. You did not have the same experience as I and that is fine.
Harold did not have this experience and plotted to over throw Darwin.
Harold is allowed to be skeptical but his initiates aren't?
>
> >
> >
> >> Now I
> > > don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal what
> I
> > > found out and invite others to do the same.
> >
> > This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
> > run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
>
> Ah, but you do not know me.
True but you telling people to find out for themselves when asking you
to back up your opinion is a contradiction. Why does not the process of
finding out for one's self begin with asking you questions and you
giving straight answers?
You make this statement based on your own
> frustration. This is a straight answer. Just not the one you want.
>
> <snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
>
> > > >
> > > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> > >
> > > Cured? Who said he was sick?
> >
> > The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
> > carting him out of the airport.
>
> I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from the
> airport were not doctors.
That's true, but I guess the cops didn't need a PHD to discern that
speaking gibberish and starting to disrobe in the airport indicates
funny farm material.
I do believe that he was placed in the hospital to
> make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to mean that
> he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
As I read it, Klemp demonized the counselor and played the part of a
good patient to get out. He refused getting help.
>
> > > Is nervous exhaustion an illness? How about a
> > > nervous breakdown?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >
> > How about the thing that happens when someone does not
> > > sleep or eat properly for a long period of time.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >> Maybe it *was* mental
> > > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know that
> know
> > > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
> >
> > These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
> > so their perceptions are suspect.
>
> It would seem that you do not understand what people think that Harold is.
A receptacle for perfectionistic projections which he actively cultivates?
Yes, but you give no details and give me nobody anything to evaluate the
veracity of your experience. I think I detect in your words a common
theme expressed by eckists here: That opinions based upon personal
experience are all equal. This is simply not true. The quality and
support of the opinion is important in determining the veracity.
I leave it to
> others to discuss what I have not witnessed.
>
> I trust the answers that I receive because of my experience with the source.
> If the person has proven him/her self to me than until I see otherwise, I
> must trust the person. I suppose anyone can be fooled but I have no evidence
> of that here. Just the opposite in fact.
>
> I support anyone's right to question. It helps to keep everything in
> balance.
Good, you can support it even more by giving them specifics details to
support your opinions.
Lurk
>
> Torchbearer
Cher
to be badgered over any issue lurk refuses to accept as he labels this
critical thinking.
Rich
Torchbearer <Cana...@Canada.ca> wrote
> I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from
the
> airport were not doctors. I do believe that he was placed in the
hospital to
> make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to
mean that
> he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
Yes. It's been discussed and the incident quoted here many, many times.
Lurk and all the detractors know the truth about this, but that's never
stopped them from continuing to misrepresent it.
arelurker
Cher wrote:
>
> Attention: Severe lurkisms present!!!! Be forewarned that you are likely
> to be badgered over any issue lurk refuses to accept as he labels this
> critical thinking.
This is Cher's way of saying I make too much sense for her own comfort.
Lurk
arelurker
Rich wrote:
>
> Torchbearer <Cana...@Canada.ca> wrote
>
> > I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from
> the
> > airport were not doctors. I do believe that he was placed in the
> hospital to
> > make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to
> mean that
> > he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
>
> Yes. It's been discussed and the incident quoted here many, many times.
> Lurk and all the detractors know the truth about this, but that's never
> stopped them from continuing to misrepresent it.
I didn't misrepresent the Harold's foray into public disrobing. The
cops gave him a choice of either going to jail or mental hospital. I
never said the people who carted him away made a diagnosis. But it must
have been kind of obvious that Klemp was whacked out. Otherwise the cops
would not have offered him the choice of the mental hospital.
Lurk
Cher
visit reality now and then. <sigh>
Cher
the situation they can pick up a copy and read the story themself. That
way they don't have to rely on lurk for anything... which is always the
best answer. <smile>
Torchbearer
>
>
> Torchbearer wrote:
> >
> > "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D6E31F7...@charter.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > Torchbearer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3D6974E4...@charter.net...
> > > >
<snip the stuff that is in the thread>
Torchbearer:
> > You and I agree that neither one of us thought that our initiation
schedule
> > was affected by our level of involvement. My observation is different
from
> > yours in the areas where I am involved. Perhaps the areas where I am
> > involved are different than the areas where you were involved.
arelurker:
> Look Torch, the process of giving initiations in eckankar involves a
> computer in the home office and gathering field information from HI's.
> The computer tracks the length of membership, etc. and the field
> information is suppose to be recommendations based upon the HI's
> judgment. What the Hi's have to make a judgment about is the
> consciousness level of the person who is up for an initiation. So, what
> do HI's use as criteria to evaluate a candidate? I would suggest first
> and foremost is what feeds their ego. Let me explain.
>
> HI's are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met on this
> earth. They are imbued with a sense of spiritual superiority. The common
> goal or focus of eckankar on a national and local level is to recruit
> new members. The HI's on a local level have two motivating factors for
> recruiting: First it makes them look good to the higher ups to have a
> thriving area with many recruits and they can't be Chiefs unless they
> have indians.
>
> So when it comes down to evaluating a person's conscious level and their
> readiness for the next consciousness level, don't you think those who do
> "postering," who do "intos" who otherwise tow the party line and do not
> challenge the status quo in eckankar will be given rave reviews by these
> HI's. I do because they have something to gain from it.
>
> Perhaps if you start viewing the eckankar system for what it really is:
> a spiritual company set up like a multilevel marketing company where
> where the HI's get residual spiritual capital (ego) from their
> downlines.
I have met HI's that have egos. Eckankar in no different than any other
organization in that regard; people are people.
Now it just so happens that I put up the odd poster and I do the odd
presentation. Why would I not do that? I am very happy that someone did that
for me, why would I not want to do it for someone else? In the circle of
people that I work with I have not met anyone who is motivated by selfish
goals. Anyone who is using selfish goals as a motivating factor is going to
have a balancing along the way. This *is* a spiritual path and operates
under spiritual rules and those rules operate whether on believes it or not.
I believe that you believe what you have written. I must conclude that your
experience has taught you to believe this way. In other words, what you say
above is something that you feel you have witnessed. If you have indeed
witnessed such things, mark my words, people who act in this way will
eventually find that they have gained nothing. Do you think that me speaking
this way will bring the wrath of the HI's upon me? NOT! Watch and see.
My argument here is that you are mistaken in your conclusions.
Yes, I am sure; but for you, I will ask.
> > >> Anyone can find the truth in what I say by
> > > > following my example and seeing for themselves.
> > >
> > > To really find out one would have to see the bylaws. Do you think
> > > eckankar would let someone have the bylaws in their corporate charter?
I
> > > don't.
> > >
> > > Even board members, I think, would hesitate to admit they were
puppets.
> > > Nobody likes to admit their someone's stooge.
> >
> > I am beginning to see the old Lurk mind game process here. You are good
at
> > it. I used to like playing mind games once myself. I don't know if I am
as
> > good at it as you are though. I can't imagine the men that I know ever
being
> > anyone's stooge. <LOL>
>
> The point is, even if you ask a board member, their not going to admit
> their powerless. That could come into play. However, to really find out
> for yourself, it would behoove you to request a copy of the bylaws to
> see exactly how the power structure in eckankar is set up.
>
> I think this is totally appropriate considering the former master was
> supposedly corrupt and everyone thought he was a godman and trusted him
> too. Where is the mind game in this?
I would have no need to request a copy of the bylaws. First off, it is of no
interest to me at this point of my life and second, I would trust the man
that I have been friends with for many years to tell me the truth. My task
after he tells me the truth will be to detiremine how much of this truth I
want to share with you and all the watching eyes.
The former master did indeed appear to think that he was a godman and it
saddened me to see what became of him. I believed at the time that he wrote
his own book as do we all. It still saddened me.
> > >> I wondered if there was
> > > > truth to what was being said and I went out and found out for
myself.
> > >
> > > That's great. But in order for me to evaluate the veracity of you
> > > findings I have to know something about them, which you refuse to
reveal.
> >
> > Of course I am not going to tell you *all*. You don't have the right to
know
> > *all*. Knowing *all* is something that you have to earn.
>
> Someone has to earn the right to get you to substantiate your opinions?
> That's strange. Get off your high horse.
I don't make spiritual rules. No high horse here. I can see above that you
were trying to personalize what I said to me but I was speaking in a broader
term. Lighten up. <G>
> Even I don't know
> > *all*. I only know what I have experienced.
>
> And your experience is a mystery to everyone else.
Not everyone else.
> I know where the standards that
> > I work by come from. I know some of the people. The things that I know
> > differ from the things that are presented on this newgroup by some
> > individuals. I have found Eckankar by and large to be a fine, ethical
and
> > spiritual teaching. I have learned this through personal involvement and
> > effort. You did not have the same experience as I and that is fine.
>
> Harold did not have this experience and plotted to over throw Darwin.
>
> Harold is allowed to be skeptical but his initiates aren't?
I disagree with your first statement but leave the debate on that subject
between you and the others who have endlessly debated the subject with you.
I have no desire to do that. Sufice it to say that my knowledge based on
someone who was there tells a different story from the sentence that you
wrote.
I am a skeptic.
> > >> Now I
> > > > don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal
what
> > I
> > > > found out and invite others to do the same.
> > >
> > > This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
> > > run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
> >
> > Ah, but you do not know me.
>
> True but you telling people to find out for themselves when asking you
> to back up your opinion is a contradiction. Why does not the process of
> finding out for one's self begin with asking you questions and you
> giving straight answers?
I give a straight answer but not the one you wanted. I can't convince you of
what I have learned for myself but I invite anyone to follow the same path
and find out for themselves. Only by finding out for yourself can you learn
the truth. You will never learn it from someone else.
<snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
> > > > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> > > >
> > > > Cured? Who said he was sick?
> > >
> > > The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
> > > carting him out of the airport.
> >
> > I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from
the
> > airport were not doctors.
>
> That's true, but I guess the cops didn't need a PHD to discern that
> speaking gibberish and starting to disrobe in the airport indicates
> funny farm material.
It could have meant a lot of things but since they are not qualified they
did the right thing by taking him to a hospital to be diagnosed.
>
>
> I do believe that he was placed in the hospital to
> > make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to mean
that
> > he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
>
> As I read it, Klemp demonized the counselor and played the part of a
> good patient to get out. He refused getting help.
But they let him out which tells me that they must have figured he was OK.
<snip>
> > >> Maybe it *was* mental
> > > > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know
that
> > know
> > > > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
> > >
> > > These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
> > > so their perceptions are suspect.
> >
> > It would seem that you do not understand what people think that Harold
is.
>
> A receptacle for perfectionistic projections which he actively cultivates?
A valid opinion from your viewpoint but not one that I share. I see him as a
humble man who is doing a fine job leading Eckankar. If I thought otherwise,
I would not support him. I would not believe that he is the Mahanta, the
Living ECK Master. I have no doubt that Harold is the LEM. I have proven
this fact to my satisfaction. The last LEM did not do this even though I was
a member of Eckankar at the time. When the change over came along I was
having grave doubts which went away when Harold became the LEM.
<snip>
> > I am expressing my opinion based on my experiences. I am also expressing
my
> > opinion based on the experiences of people who are my friends. You and I
are
> > in the same boat when it comes to expressing our viewpoints. The debates
> > about the 'evidence' is endless when it comes to Eckankar's past. I can
only
> > comment on what I have researched and experienced for myself.
>
> Yes, but you give no details and give me nobody anything to evaluate the
> veracity of your experience. I think I detect in your words a common
> theme expressed by eckists here: That opinions based upon personal
> experience are all equal. This is simply not true. The quality and
> support of the opinion is important in determining the veracity.
What details do you need? If you are looking for hard physical evidence than
I understand why you never understood your spiritual experiences while being
a member of Eckankar. The experiences that I have in the physical
organization are above board but are not public domain. I have invited
anyone to become involved and learn for themselves. You have made up your
mind. Your spiritual experiences should speak for themselves and if they
don't then stick to it. Don't give up. There is something for you out there
somewhere. Just because it isn't Eckankar, doesn't mean there is nothing.
>
>
> I leave it to
> > others to discuss what I have not witnessed.
> >
> > I trust the answers that I receive because of my experience with the
source.
> > If the person has proven him/her self to me than until I see otherwise,
I
> > must trust the person. I suppose anyone can be fooled but I have no
evidence
> > of that here. Just the opposite in fact.
> >
> > I support anyone's right to question. It helps to keep everything in
> > balance.
>
> Good, you can support it even more by giving them specifics details to
> support your opinions.
>
> Lurk
I thought that I had within the boundaries of ethics. Neither can I share
with the world the details of the physical organization nor can I share the
details of the corporation that I used to work for. Both are for the same
reason so don't think that it is some dark plot. :-)
Torchbearer
arelurker
That would be a way to confirm on way or the other whether the board can
throw Klemp out on his ear as he did to Darwin. Darwin lived with a
board that had power enough to oust him. I don't think Klemp lives under
the same.
First off, it is of no
> interest to me at this point of my life and second, I would trust the man
> that I have been friends with for many years to tell me the truth.
But that is naive, since lots of people trusted Darwin.
My task
> after he tells me the truth will be to detiremine how much of this truth I
> want to share with you and all the watching eyes.
What would be the big secret? My god were simply talking about the power
structure of the org. is there something to hide?
>
> The former master did indeed appear to think that he was a godman and it
> saddened me to see what became of him.
Your current master thinks he's a godman as well. He has said that.
That's a red flag. He operate eckankar in financial secrecy. That's a
red flag.
I believed at the time that he wrote
> his own book as do we all. It still saddened me.
And Harold will suffer the consequences of his own actions as well.
But the point in me bringing up Darwin is to say that many eckists
trusted him and did not ask questions. Eckists are making the same
mistake twice.
Harold did not think Darwin acted ethically. He was skeptical and
disappointed. So he used the board to throw him out on his ear.
Suffice it to say that my knowledge based on
> someone who was there tells a different story from the sentence that you
> wrote.
Whatever. I know someone who knows someone who says who you know is wrong.
>
> I am a skeptic.
>
> > > >> Now I
> > > > > don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and reveal
> what
> > > I
> > > > > found out and invite others to do the same.
> > > >
> > > > This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
> > > > run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
> > >
> > > Ah, but you do not know me.
> >
> > True but you telling people to find out for themselves when asking you
> > to back up your opinion is a contradiction. Why does not the process of
> > finding out for one's self begin with asking you questions and you
> > giving straight answers?
>
> I give a straight answer but not the one you wanted.
You offered and opinion about the power structure of eckankar and
refused to back it up or to divulge why you knew this information, but
instead, said people need to go find out for themselves about the power
structure of eckankar as a response. That not a straight answer in my book.
I can't convince you of
> what I have learned for myself but I invite anyone to follow the same path
> and find out for themselves.
You might if you tell me what you have learned.
Only by finding out for yourself can you learn
> the truth. You will never learn it from someone else.
What a load of relativistic crap!
Asking someone about the power structure of eckankar and why they believe
what they believe about this subject is a valid form of inquiry. It
could be a valuable piece of the puzzle.
>
> <snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
>
> > > > > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cured? Who said he was sick?
> > > >
> > > > The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital when
> > > > carting him out of the airport.
> > >
> > > I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him from
> the
> > > airport were not doctors.
> >
> > That's true, but I guess the cops didn't need a PHD to discern that
> > speaking gibberish and starting to disrobe in the airport indicates
> > funny farm material.
>
> It could have meant a lot of things but since they are not qualified they
> did the right thing by taking him to a hospital to be diagnosed.
And they keep Harold there for a couple of weeks which says what?
>
> >
> >
> > I do believe that he was placed in the hospital to
> > > make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to mean
> that
> > > he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
> >
> > As I read it, Klemp demonized the counselor and played the part of a
> > good patient to get out. He refused getting help.
>
> But they let him out which tells me that they must have figured he was OK.
Or did a good job of playing the game to appear to be okay.
>
> <snip>
>
> > > >> Maybe it *was* mental
> > > > > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I know
> that
> > > know
> > > > > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
> > > >
> > > > These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on Earth,
> > > > so their perceptions are suspect.
> > >
> > > It would seem that you do not understand what people think that Harold
> is.
> >
> > A receptacle for perfectionistic projections which he actively cultivates?
>
> A valid opinion from your viewpoint but not one that I share. I see him as a
> humble man who is doing a fine job leading Eckankar.
Lying to his membership is not good leadership and saying he has the
highest consciousness IN THE WORLD is not humble.
If I thought otherwise,
> I would not support him.
You need to take a second look.
I would not believe that he is the Mahanta, the
> Living ECK Master. I have no doubt that Harold is the LEM. I have proven
> this fact to my satisfaction. The last LEM did not do this even though I was
> a member of Eckankar at the time. When the change over came along I was
> having grave doubts which went away when Harold became the LEM.
This is cultic talk.
>
> <snip>
>
> > > I am expressing my opinion based on my experiences. I am also expressing
> my
> > > opinion based on the experiences of people who are my friends. You and I
> are
> > > in the same boat when it comes to expressing our viewpoints. The debates
> > > about the 'evidence' is endless when it comes to Eckankar's past. I can
> only
> > > comment on what I have researched and experienced for myself.
> >
> > Yes, but you give no details and give me nobody anything to evaluate the
> > veracity of your experience. I think I detect in your words a common
> > theme expressed by eckists here: That opinions based upon personal
> > experience are all equal. This is simply not true. The quality and
> > support of the opinion is important in determining the veracity.
>
> What details do you need?
Something to back your opinion up that the board has power to oust Klemp.
If you are looking for hard physical evidence than
> I understand why you never understood your spiritual experiences while being
> a member of Eckankar.
What does spiritual experiences have to do with the power structure in
eckankar? Why are you interjecting this?
The experiences that I have in the physical
> organization are above board but are not public domain.
That's fine, but what experiences lead you to believe that the board is
powerful enough to oust Klemp.
I have invited
> anyone to become involved and learn for themselves. You have made up your
> mind. Your spiritual experiences should speak for themselves and if they
> don't then stick to it. Don't give up.
Huh? What does my spiritual experiences have to do with the question of
the board's power?
There is something for you out there
> somewhere. Just because it isn't Eckankar, doesn't mean there is nothing.
Thanks for the advice but I'm at a lost what this has to do with
anything we were talking about.
>
> >
> >
> > I leave it to
> > > others to discuss what I have not witnessed.
> > >
> > > I trust the answers that I receive because of my experience with the
> source.
> > > If the person has proven him/her self to me than until I see otherwise,
> I
> > > must trust the person. I suppose anyone can be fooled but I have no
> evidence
> > > of that here. Just the opposite in fact.
> > >
> > > I support anyone's right to question. It helps to keep everything in
> > > balance.
> >
> > Good, you can support it even more by giving them specifics details to
> > support your opinions.
> >
> > Lurk
>
> I thought that I had within the boundaries of ethics. Neither can I share
> with the world the details of the physical organization nor can I share the
> details of the corporation that I used to work for. Both are for the same
> reason so don't think that it is some dark plot. :-)
So your opinion will remain unsubstantiated.
Lurk
>
> Torchbearer
Torchbearer
OK.
>
> First off, it is of no
> > interest to me at this point of my life and second, I would trust the
man
> > that I have been friends with for many years to tell me the truth.
>
> But that is naive, since lots of people trusted Darwin.
I *know* my friend. He is a friend. Do you have friends? If you have friends
do you think it is naive to trust them?
> My task
> > after he tells me the truth will be to detiremine how much of this truth
I
> > want to share with you and all the watching eyes.
>
>
> What would be the big secret? My god were simply talking about the power
> structure of the org. is there something to hide?
In my profession, I worked for a large corporation. I have knowledge of what
takes place within that corporation. If people are having a discussion about
the honesty of that corporation I can say based on my knowledge, that the
corporation is run in an honest manner. If people ask me to prove that, I
have to tell them to believe what they will but trust me when I say that I
know it is honest. If the people choose to doubt my honesty in expressing
what I know, I guess I just have to eat that choice and allow them to
believe what they will. It would be my hope that others will see that I have
integrity and trust what I say. There is nothing to hide but there are
people who would use knowledge that is shared from inside any organization
to harm the organization. Therefore it is wise not to share inside
information. In the case of the corporation I had to sign a non disclosure
agreement. Knowledge in the hands of some is power.
> > The former master did indeed appear to think that he was a godman and it
> > saddened me to see what became of him.
>
> Your current master thinks he's a godman as well. He has said that.
> That's a red flag. He operate eckankar in financial secrecy. That's a
> red flag.
There are no secrets from those who need to know. There are no laws being
broken. Implying otherwise is just mind games. :-)
> I believed at the time that he wrote
> > his own book as do we all. It still saddened me.
>
> And Harold will suffer the consequences of his own actions as well.
Of course. I believe that he has been doing a wonderful job and I say 'of
course' in that context. Spiritual laws are very exacting and there are
consequences for all actions.
> But the point in me bringing up Darwin is to say that many eckists
> trusted him and did not ask questions. Eckists are making the same
> mistake twice.
Don't think that. I asked questions. Looks like I was right to do so. <G> I
think Harold is doing a wonderful job. I keep an eye out for such things.
:-)
Ah if life were so simple.
>
>
> Suffice it to say that my knowledge based on
> > someone who was there tells a different story from the sentence that you
> > wrote.
>
> Whatever. I know someone who knows someone who says who you know is wrong.
<LOL>
>
>
> >
> > I am a skeptic.
> >
> > > > >> Now I
> > > > > > don't have to take anyone's word for it. Now I come here and
reveal
> > what
> > > > I
> > > > > > found out and invite others to do the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is such a circular cop out. The usual non straight answer,
> > > > > run-around sort of response, people get from eckankar leaders.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, but you do not know me.
> > >
> > > True but you telling people to find out for themselves when asking you
> > > to back up your opinion is a contradiction. Why does not the process
of
> > > finding out for one's self begin with asking you questions and you
> > > giving straight answers?
> >
> > I give a straight answer but not the one you wanted.
>
> You offered and opinion about the power structure of eckankar and
> refused to back it up or to divulge why you knew this information, but
> instead, said people need to go find out for themselves about the power
> structure of eckankar as a response. That not a straight answer in my
book.
OK.
>
>
> I can't convince you of
> > what I have learned for myself but I invite anyone to follow the same
path
> > and find out for themselves.
>
> You might if you tell me what you have learned.
I have.
>
>
> Only by finding out for yourself can you learn
> > the truth. You will never learn it from someone else.
>
> What a load of relativistic crap!
OK.
>
> Asking someone about the power structure of eckankar and why they believe
> what they believe about this subject is a valid form of inquiry. It
> could be a valuable piece of the puzzle.
Yeah, I will do that. My challenge then will be how much to share. :-)
> > <snip more stuff that you can read in the thread>
> >
> > > > > > > I never got the sense that Harold cured himself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cured? Who said he was sick?
> > > > >
> > > > > The people who gave him a choice between jail and mental hospital
when
> > > > > carting him out of the airport.
> > > >
> > > > I might be wrong but if memory serves me the people who took him
from
> > the
> > > > airport were not doctors.
> > >
> > > That's true, but I guess the cops didn't need a PHD to discern that
> > > speaking gibberish and starting to disrobe in the airport indicates
> > > funny farm material.
> >
> > It could have meant a lot of things but since they are not qualified
they
> > did the right thing by taking him to a hospital to be diagnosed.
>
> And they keep Harold there for a couple of weeks which says what?
A thorough diagnosis?
> > > I do believe that he was placed in the hospital to
> > > > make a diagnosis and since he was eventually released I take it to
mean
> > that
> > > > he was OK. Help me out with this folks. Am I right on this?
> > >
> > > As I read it, Klemp demonized the counselor and played the part of a
> > > good patient to get out. He refused getting help.
> >
> > But they let him out which tells me that they must have figured he was
OK.
>
> Or did a good job of playing the game to appear to be okay.
Well, he seems OK to me.
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > >> Maybe it *was* mental
> > > > > > illness. I don't know but I *do* know that the people that I
know
> > that
> > > > know
> > > > > > Harold personally do not think there is anything wrong with him.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are probably the same ones who think he is some Godman on
Earth,
> > > > > so their perceptions are suspect.
> > > >
> > > > It would seem that you do not understand what people think that
Harold
> > is.
> > >
> > > A receptacle for perfectionistic projections which he actively
cultivates?
> >
> > A valid opinion from your viewpoint but not one that I share. I see him
as a
> > humble man who is doing a fine job leading Eckankar.
>
> Lying to his membership is not good leadership and saying he has the
> highest consciousness IN THE WORLD is not humble.
What can I say? You need to meet him and have a conversation.
> If I thought otherwise,
> > I would not support him.
>
> You need to take a second look.
I have, and a third and fourth look as well.
> I would not believe that he is the Mahanta, the
> > Living ECK Master. I have no doubt that Harold is the LEM. I have proven
> > this fact to my satisfaction. The last LEM did not do this even though I
was
> > a member of Eckankar at the time. When the change over came along I was
> > having grave doubts which went away when Harold became the LEM.
>
> This is cultic talk.
Sorry but I can't think of any other way to word it that would be better.
Over tired. Selling my house. You are right, this was out of context. Here I
thought I was perfect now and you go pointing out my 'humanness'. <g>
>
>
> The experiences that I have in the physical
> > organization are above board but are not public domain.
>
> That's fine, but what experiences lead you to believe that the board is
> powerful enough to oust Klemp.
The board can do anything that is necessary for a board to do. I can think
of no reason for it to oust Harold because I think that he is doing a superb
job. They must think so as well. When I ask my friend and he says, 'yes';
will you believe it when I report back to you or will I be wasting my time?
>
>
> I have invited
> > anyone to become involved and learn for themselves. You have made up
your
> > mind. Your spiritual experiences should speak for themselves and if they
> > don't then stick to it. Don't give up.
>
> Huh? What does my spiritual experiences have to do with the question of
> the board's power?
Nothing. Tired as I said before.
> There is something for you out there
> > somewhere. Just because it isn't Eckankar, doesn't mean there is
nothing.
>
> Thanks for the advice but I'm at a lost what this has to do with
> anything we were talking about.
It was genuine.
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I leave it to
> > > > others to discuss what I have not witnessed.
> > > >
> > > > I trust the answers that I receive because of my experience with the
> > source.
> > > > If the person has proven him/her self to me than until I see
otherwise,
> > I
> > > > must trust the person. I suppose anyone can be fooled but I have no
> > evidence
> > > > of that here. Just the opposite in fact.
> > > >
> > > > I support anyone's right to question. It helps to keep everything in
> > > > balance.
> > >
> > > Good, you can support it even more by giving them specifics details to
> > > support your opinions.
> > >
> > > Lurk
> >
> > I thought that I had within the boundaries of ethics. Neither can I
share
> > with the world the details of the physical organization nor can I share
the
> > details of the corporation that I used to work for. Both are for the
same
> > reason so don't think that it is some dark plot. :-)
>
> So your opinion will remain unsubstantiated.
>
> Lurk
OK.
Torchbearer
Joe
> > First off, it is of no
> > > interest to me at this point of my life and second, I would trust the
> man
> > > that I have been friends with for many years to tell me the truth.
> >
> > But that is naive, since lots of people trusted Darwin.
>
> I *know* my friend. He is a friend. Do you have friends? If you have friends
> do you think it is naive to trust them?
Darwin Gross was considered to be way MORE than a friend to thousands
of Eckists, Worldwide.
Darwin said he was "the Mahanta" -- but whoops! Harold tells us that
Darwin lied or was deluded when he claimed this lofty spiritual title.
During the years Darwin was called "The Mahanta," Eckists *knew*
Darwin was just Who he Said He Was. That Mahanta, that is.
Were Eckists naive to believe Darwin then?
Just ask an Eckist if they believe what Darwin says, NOW!
Also during the Darwin years, Eckists were told that Darwin didn't get
much $ from Eck org.
There was the Washington Post Interview of Darwin, he said what he was
paid by the org "was not much" after taxes.
My area Mahdhis -- a "friend" I trusted -- act8ally told me that
Darwin did freelance electronics work to support himself WHILE HE WAS
LEM.
So Eckists live under the myth that their "friend" hardly gets by with
what modest funds he gets from the org (their donations). Years pass,
and what do we find out?
Doug Marman reveals that Darwin had THREE HOUSES, courtesy of Eck org.
3 houses and god knows how much else.
So yes, sometimes we are naive when we trust our friends, especially
when cultic religion is involved in the mix.
To secure their place in the cult, ultists will sacrifice the truth,
and any of their friends, in a NY heartbeat.
Torchbearer
I did not know Darwin. I don't know anyone who knew Darwin personally. I
learned the teachings of Eckankar by reading the books that Paul had
written. I had some interesting experiences that kept me looking and finally
joined while Darwin was still LEM. It seemed to me that Paul was the person
that I was in touch with and while Darwin was the LEM I was questioning more
and more. I had doubts. Not in Eckankar, the teaching but in Darwin. At that
time I was still open minded. Perhaps I was wrong. I usually take a wait and
see attitude until I am sure one way or the other. I remember questioning an
HI about what I termed the 'crass American commercialism that I saw taking
place through the mailings from Eckankar. This all disappeared a while after
Harold became the LEM. After Darwin left, I was sent a letter from him
offering me the opportunity to go with him into a new organization. I wasn't
interested. I felt saddened by the whole matter but I also saw the truth in
it. This is all I know on this matter.
I like what I see with Eckankar under the direction of Harold. I am
speaking here of Harold, the man, the physical leader of the physical
teachings of Eckankar. I pay a membership to belong. I pay memberships to
belong to other physical organizations as well. With my membership I receive
mailings, discourses and a membership card. With my membership in other
organizations I receive mailings, discourses and a membership card. If I
can't afford the suggested donation in Eckankar, I phone them up and let
them know what I *can* afford and I get my membership, mailings, discourses
for the amount that I can afford. When I can't afford the membership in the
other organizations, I have no membership until I come up with the money. I
don't know if it was like this under Darwin, I didn't test it. I have tested
it with Harold there and it works in the way that I think it should.
Joe, every time I have tested Eckankar to find out if it stands up to my
scrutiny, it passes the test. Most of what I see you writing about is from
stuff that you point out happened while Darwin was LEM. Maybe if you look a
little closer you will find that it has changed.
Torchbearer
"Joe" <joe_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ef6e483.02090...@posting.google.com...
Joe
I don't see how.
Darwin was known to Eckist as the Mahanta. Now Harold has that same
title.
Eckankar asked for money for membership when Darwin was LEM. Eckankar
does the same thing today.
Eckankar operated in financial secrecy when Darwin was LEM. Eckankar
operates in financial secrecy today.
Sworddancer
I can verify that H.I.'s give initiation recommendations....I used to do it
for the resa who did not personally know certain people in our city.
The resa asked several of us to do this for him. Part of the process was to
check for "loyalness"..dedication to the path.....also for "Balance" i.e we
were to asked to report if the subject chela was following or studying other
paths...especially ufo's and such...this was considered a negative. We were
also asked about the persons personal life if we had any info. We were also
asked to determine "Activity"...was the person physically active in
spreading eck. Did this person have grudges about eckankar? Did this
person have a nice personality etc....
Not much of this really had much to do with spiritual unfoldment and today I
am ashamed that I agreed to provide this information about another person.
I saw those that I had recommended get initiations and those that I bashed,
not get initiations....in most cases.
h.i's certainly do have ego's and they get bigger with each initiation and
each year of membership until the inner truthseeker eventually wins
out......I found that I could not live with eckankar if I loved truth.
"arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3D7A8684...@charter.net...
>
>
> Torchbearer wrote:
> >
> > "arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D720A93...@charter.net...
> > >
SNIP a lot of stuff
SNIP
Rich
Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
> Hi Group,
>
> I can verify that H.I.'s give initiation recommendations....I used to do it
> for the resa who did not personally know certain people in our city.
>
> The resa asked several of us to do this for him. Part of the process was to
> check for "loyalness"..dedication to the path.....also for "Balance" i.e we
> were to asked to report if the subject chela was following or studying other
> paths...especially ufo's and such...this was considered a negative. We were
> also asked about the persons personal life if we had any info. We were also
> asked to determine "Activity"...was the person physically active in
> spreading ECK. Did this person have grudges about Eckankar? Did this
> person have a nice personality etc....
When I read these kind of misrepresentations, it's clear why people like this left Eckankar. It explains how he can say this
when some of these things are completely contrary to the instruction of this input to the Living ECK Master?
> Not much of this really had much to do with spiritual unfoldment and today I
> am ashamed that I agreed to provide this information about another person.
He should be ashamed if he was really this far off base... as if he should be judging another's spiritual unfoldment. :-/
Siva Ri
> Hi Group,
>
> I can verify that H.I.'s give initiation recommendations....I used to do it
> for the resa who did not personally know certain people in our city.
>
> The resa asked several of us to do this for him. Part of the process was to
> check for "loyalness"..dedication to the path.....also for "Balance" i.e we
> were to asked to report if the subject chela was following or studying other
> paths...especially ufo's and such...this was considered a negative. We were
> also asked about the persons personal life if we had any info. We were also
> asked to determine "Activity"...was the person physically active in
> spreading eck. Did this person have grudges about eckankar? Did this
> person have a nice personality etc....
>
> Not much of this really had much to do with spiritual unfoldment and today I
> am ashamed that I agreed to provide this information about another person.
>
> I saw those that I had recommended get initiations and those that I bashed,
> not get initiations....in most cases.
>
> h.i's certainly do have ego's and they get bigger with each initiation and
> each year of membership until the inner truthseeker eventually wins
> out......I found that I could not live with eckankar if I loved truth.
>
>
being a Higher Initiate for over 20 years. One intitiation incident
stands out in my mind. A certain 4th initiate had been stuck in her
level of initiation for well over a decade, while others in her circle
has long moved on to the fifth. She befriended me, and told me how she
had been blacklisted by the HI's in the state, because she was
outspoken, independent, and followed her own drum. I could see her
point, and knew a lot of it was true, as some of the HI's she
mentioned were close acquaintances who had told me themselves why they
didn't think this woman should be an HI. Their reasons were all about
appearances, not spiritual substance. It so happened I carried a lot
of respect in the State, so the next time the RESA called to go over
his list of who should and who shouldn't be recommended for the next
level, I gave the "blacklisted" woman a high recommendation. Bingo.
Within a month or so she got her Fifth. It was the same old game as in
corporate America - it's who you know, baby!
Cher
person"? So what is the conspiracy theory behind this particular tidbit?
I recall sharon attempting to embarrass ECKists by posting to a Buddhist
newsgroup. The one thing that stuck with me out of her ridiculous lying
to that group for her own purposes was the statement that people joining
groups such as Eckankar were not being screened for unbalanced
individuals. Well.... right here is a good example of how the inner is
double checked on the outer, and you find fault with that? I see this as
proof that we do try to screen out those who are not dealing with the
spiritual life as one hoped.
Joe
> Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
>
> > Hi Group,
> >
> > I can verify that H.I.'s give initiation recommendations....I used to do it
> > for the resa who did not personally know certain people in our city.
> >
> > The resa asked several of us to do this for him. Part of the process was to
> > check for "loyalness"..dedication to the path.....also for "Balance" i.e we
> > were to asked to report if the subject chela was following or studying other
> > paths...especially ufo's and such...this was considered a negative. We were
> > also asked about the persons personal life if we had any info. We were also
> > asked to determine "Activity"...was the person physically active in
> > spreading ECK. Did this person have grudges about Eckankar? Did this
> > person have a nice personality etc....
>
> When I read these kind of misrepresentations, it's clear why people like this left Eckankar. It explains how he can say this
> when some of these things are completely contrary to the instruction of this input to the Living ECK Master?
Rich Smith, who are you to say make such arrogant judgments?
How is it that you, above all others here, write as though you have a
20-20 view of what "Eckankar really is," yet you refuse to admit or
deny you're a member of Eckankar's Clergy?
>
>
> > Not much of this really had much to do with spiritual unfoldment and today I
> > am ashamed that I agreed to provide this information about another person.
>
> He should be ashamed if he was really this far off base... as if he should be judging another's spiritual unfoldment. :-/
Rich, please. You know that one of the functions of Eck Clergy is to
send in reviews of Eck chelas to Eck org for purposes of deciding who
is fit for higher initiations.
Are *you* a member of Eckankar's clergy? Have you ever recommended
someone for initiation? Or withheld recommendation for initiation>?
If so, then you're in the same boat Tom was in.
And if you aren't, you're still a member of Eckankar.
Uh...you are a member of Eckankar, right?
Rich
Siva Ri <siv...@aol.com> wrote >
> It so happened I carried a lot
> of respect in the State, so the next time the RESA called to go over
> his list of who should and who shouldn't be recommended for the next
> level, I gave the "blacklisted" woman a high recommendation. Bingo.
> Within a month or so she got her Fifth. It was the same old game as in
> corporate America - it's who you know, baby!
I find it to be very telling of the arrogance of some ex-H.I.'S that feel that they were the one responsible for initiations
being granted... as if it was under their personal control. Just another factor in why they are no longer members.
Rich
Cher <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> It appears to me to be reasonable, a RESA asking "do you know this
> person"? So what is the conspiracy theory behind this particular tidbit?
> I recall sharon attempting to embarrass ECKists by posting to a Buddhist
> newsgroup. The one thing that stuck with me out of her ridiculous lying
> to that group for her own purposes was the statement that people joining
> groups such as Eckankar were not being screened for unbalanced
> individuals. Well.... right here is a good example of how the inner is
> double checked on the outer, and you find fault with that? I see this as
> proof that we do try to screen out those who are not dealing with the
> spiritual life as one hoped.
Good point Cher. Eckankar offers lofty goals. Not everyone is suited to achieve them in this lifetime. The master makes
these decisions, not the H.I.'s.
Cher
idea that someone asks others for input is not in the least unusual in
this society. Have you ever been asked to write an evaluation of a
coworker? Haven't any of the detractors ever held a white collar job?
<sigh> Not one person here ever been asked for input on someone in a
separate section of your department, or someone new that you as a
manager might not see on a regular basis? How out of touch with the real
world are you people? My god... this whole anticult mission of madness
is for my taste... too out of touch with reality to bother with. I'm
sorry but no one I know lives in such a vacuum. <shudder>
Morgan wrote:
>
> You're right Joe, judgement is fallible and how could someone know all
> the facts. Everyone could hear the same facts and yet not come up with
> the same answer.
>
> I think the H.I.'s who make such determinations of others need to
> engage themselves in some honest self-critisizm. Using a measuring
> stick such as was said done by the H.I.'s is a contradiction of
> imperfect people pointing out the imperfections in others. This kind
> of crap happens in many organizations. Eckankar sure isn't exempt from
> this occurring.
>
> Morgan
Cher
that. They're here to make up this stuff as they obsess with each other,
and reinforce these confabulations. Paper tigers.... it's all paper
tigers.
Joe
> Cher <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
> > It appears to me to be reasonable, a RESA asking "do you know this
> > person"? So what is the conspiracy theory behind this particular tidbit?
> > I recall sharon attempting to embarrass ECKists by posting to a Buddhist
> > newsgroup. The one thing that stuck with me out of her ridiculous lying
> > to that group for her own purposes was the statement that people joining
> > groups such as Eckankar were not being screened for unbalanced
> > individuals. Well.... right here is a good example of how the inner is
> > double checked on the outer, and you find fault with that? I see this as
> > proof that we do try to screen out those who are not dealing with the
> > spiritual life as one hoped.
>
> Good point Cher. Eckankar offers lofty goals. Not everyone is suited to achieve them in this lifetime. The master makes
> these decisions, not the H.I.'s.
"The Master makes these decisions" -- wow.
I guess these are the words of a "balanced induhvidual."
ECKANKAR facts, background, and hidden history:
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/
The secret ECK Discourses: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/eck.txt
Here's a partial list of Twitchell's
extensive plagiarism of copyright protected texts:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/center.htm
Cher
a red neck, joe? Hmmmm? Got that bigotry to deal with too? <sigh>
Sworddancer
just to clarify for Rich and everyone.....I got instruction from Page 89 of
riding For The Eck Brand and from the local RESA who asked the
questions......not from Harold personally or verbally.
Sword
"Joe" <joe_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ef6e483.02091...@posting.google.com...
Sworddancer
stated for years that the Initiations were strictly decided by the Living
Eck Master who personally examined a persons individual spiritual growth
through soul travel other spiritual techniques.....It was many many years
until Harold was confronted at an eck seminar with the direct question of
whether he personally did this research or whether he rely'ed upon the
comments of others.....As a High initiate in eckankar I never saw anything
in writing at all about initiation recommendations until "Riding" was
released to the H.I's in 1991 or so......Yet I was put in the position of
doing these recommendations for years before that and also told to not speak
about it to others.....Yet another deception.
My point being that these recommendations were being given and being acted
upon based upon the personal opinions of people who may not have been
qualified or able to do accurate research into anothers spiritual
unfoldment. YET THE MEMBERSHIP WAS NOT ADVISED OF THIS and the general
membership may still labour under the mis-impression that Harold does all
this himself.
Not much is said about the eck computer when it comes to initiations.
"Cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3D80A464...@worldnet.att.net...
Rich
Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
> .....I got instruction from Page 89 of
> riding For The Eck Brand and from the local RESA who asked the
> questions......not from Harold personally or verbally.
> Sword
It's no surprise that upon checking I find that four of your claims
below are not true. Creative pessimism works wonders with the
imagination.
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
Rich
Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
> My point being that these recommendations were being given and being
acted
> upon based upon the personal opinions of people who may not have been
> qualified or able to do accurate research into anothers spiritual
> unfoldment.
It's no surprise that Harold says just the opposite in
"Riding" _and_ the guidelines.
Apostates and New Religious Movements
http://germany.freedommag.org/experts/eng/wilson01.pdf
The disaffected and the
apostate are in particular informants whose evidence has to be used
with circumspection. The apostate is generally in need of self-
justification. He seeks to reconstruct his own past, to excuse his
former affiliations, and to blame those who were formerly his closest
associates. Not uncommonly the apostate learns to rehearse
an 'atrocity story' to explain how, by manipulation, trickery,
coercion, or deceit, he was induced to join or to remain within an
organization that he now forswears and condemns. Apostates,
sensationalized by the press, have sometimes sought to make a profit
from accounts of their experiences in stories sold to newspapers or
produced as books (sometimes written by 'ghost' writers). [Bryan
Wilson, The Social Dimensions of Sectarianism, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
1990, p.19.]
Sociologists and other investigators into minority religions
have thus come to recognize a particular constellation of motives that
prompt apostates in the stance they adopt relative to their previous
religious commitment and their more recent renunciation of it. The
apostate needs to establish his credibility both with respect to his
earlier conversion to a religious body and his subsequent
relinquishment of that commitment. To vindicate himself in regard to
his volte face requires a plausible explanation of both his (usually
sudden) adherence to his erstwhile faith and his no less sudden
abandonment and condemnation of it. Academics have come to recognize
the "atrocity story" as a distinctive genre of the apostate, and have
even come to regard it as a recognizable category of phenomena [A.D.
Shupe, Jr., and D. G. Bromley, "Apostates and Atrocity Stories", in B.
Wilson (ed.), The Social Impact of New Religious Movements, New York,
Rose of Sharon Press, 1981, pp. 179-215.] The apostate typically
represents himself having been introduced to his former allegiance at a
time when he was especially vulnerable -- depressed, isolated, lacking
social or financial support, alienated from his family, or some other
such circumstance. His former associates are now depicted as having
prevailed upon him by false claims, deceptions, promises of love,
support, enhanced prospects, increased well-being, or the like. In
fact, the apostate story proceeds, they were false friends, seeking
only to exploit his goodwill, and extract from him long hours of work
without pay, or whatever money or property he possessed. Thus, the
apostate presents himself as "a brand plucked from the burning," as
having been not responsible for his actions when he was inducted into
his former religion, and as having "come to his senses" when he left.
Essentially, his message is that "given the situation, it could have
happened to anyone." They are entirely responsible and they act with
malice aforethought against unsuspecting, innocent victims. By such a
representation of the case, the apostate relocates responsibility for
his earlier actions, and seeks to reintegrate with the wider society
which he now seeks to influence, and perhaps to mobilize, against the
religious group which he has lately abandoned.
<SNIP>
Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of
law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source
of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history
predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious
commitment and affiliations, the suspicion must arise that he acts from
a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-
esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently
to have become a redeemed crusader.
Bryan Ronald Wilson
December 3, 1994
Oxford, England
Cher
from the H.I.'s. The inner is one thing, but the outer has been lacking
in particiaption for a long time. This is wonderful. Thanks for helping
out, Paul. I hope the people you approved have a long and fulfilling
experience on the path.
Cher
ask you something. If you were placing so much on the inner as a means
of accomplishing all things, then were was your inner awareness of what
the Mahanta was asking of you? Where was your inner answers to this
problem that you were dealing with? See, I'm not trying to argue or
belittle what you're sharing here, but simply cannot understand how on
one hand you make the "inner" aspects so extremely important and yet
from what you share, it appears you didn't work on the inner in this
fashion. H.I.'s have been used as initiators from the very beginning.
What makes what you were asked to do any different than this? I see it
as one and the same, actually training for. If you practice the presence
of the Mahanta then what is the difference between the Mahanta working
in Minneapolis or standing in the light body next to you as you are
asked to evaluate people you know? What about standing together at the
Temple within? Isn't this also a measure of your growth as an H.I. as
well?
Seriously, Paul.... this is something that even posting to this group I
am aware of.
The presence of the Mahanta is part of our expanding awareness in
Eckankar. Regardless of what anyone else may think, I know that who I am
is not a mystery to the Master, because of this. But am I being
evaluated by others? Of course I am. And that is part of their lessons
on the path as well. I've never seen anything in the writings of
Eckankar that states this is any different. Maybe it's just my
particular makeup here but I can't imagine that interaction with one
another isn't part of the experiences on this path. I can see why people
would be told not to talk about this unnecessarily. After all,
mini-masters are not unheard of on this path or any other path. This
could be used by an H.I. with lessons to go through as a weapon of
power. That could hamper the freedom of initiates in the area. So not
talking about it is a lesson in itself. But knowing about it, doesn't
mean that the H.I. has power.
I've had more letters written about me to the Mahanta then most people I
know of because of things I've chosen to do on line and in my personal
life. These were outside the premise you set up here as a regular
evaluation but were about specific events. I've made some very strange
and sad choices at times that certainly should've put me personally in
the worst possible light to the Mahanta for initiation. All I could do
was recognize my lessons and accept those gifts. I still received an
initiation after a good many of these negative appraisals were mailed
in. I am proof that the word of H.I.'s has little to do with the inner
relationship with the Master to Chela beyond being a catalyst of
expanding awareness. It's always more than just a two way street. The
Chela or initiate is never left out of the equation... seriously. I have
to say, that at the time, there wasn't anything I could do about these
people and their actions, but there was always something I could do
about my part in the experiences. But the fact remains, I'm proof that
what you suggest is not the case... that such evaluations have an impact
on a chela's life, directly as specified by the H.I. only. I didn't
write to the Master to counter tattle, because that wasn't my part of
the lesson. So you've chosen to articulate with one who knows first hand
what this could mean and what it did mean to her on this path. After
all, Paul.... we are still people. That human aspect is not a passing
fancy, but a deep abiding lesson ever present.
There is no proof that what you suggest, that the input of untrained
people makes the choice directly. All that you've shown us here is that
input is asked for. This doesn't prove "an ECK computer", or a roll of
the dice or the word of some messed up or untrained person making this
decision alone. What it does prove is that H.I.'s are expected to work,
instead of bask in the light. This is no different than H.I.'s becoming
initiators.
Sharon2000
> It appears to me to be reasonable, a RESA asking "do you know this
> person"? So what is the conspiracy theory behind this particular tidbit?
> I recall sharon attempting to embarrass ECKists by posting to a Buddhist
> newsgroup. The one thing that stuck with me out of her ridiculous lying
> to that group for her own purposes was the statement that people joining
> groups such as Eckankar were not being screened for unbalanced
> individuals.
<giggle> The funniest thing about when I used the pseudo "Gene" at the
Tibetan group was that Clergyman Tricky Dickie PickIt was lurking there,
and sent "Gene" a private email directing him to his old Oasis site
(complete with the disgusting Samorez Memorial Roster) for info about
e-kult.
Your memory of this incident is a bit "off", Grundie. My only "lie" was
the name I used for posting - and I used a pseudo because I know cult
"clergy" lurks all over the internet, looking for people who might be
susceptible to recruitment, and I also made up a story about why I was
asking for opinions about the story posted by an eckist here at a.r.e.
Anyone interested in this incident can see some of the posts involved at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files.html - it's the one about
"How Eckmyths get started."
Well.... right here is a good example of how the inner is
> double checked on the outer, and you find fault with that? I see this as
> proof that we do try to screen out those who are not dealing with the
> spiritual life as one hoped.
>
No, Grundie, what we see here is confirmation that there is no "inner",
when it comes to Weird Harold's "powers" as "mahanta".
Think about it, Grundie. Your omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent
"mahanta", after battling the forces of evil all night on the other planes,
aided by his trusty HIs, he had to check out of the haunted European hotel
the next morning.
He fled AZ and moved the "temple" site to MN because of bad psychic forces
and the threat of a Latino invasion - well, Census2000 figures show that
evidently it was an off-EckVidya day for him, because MN has since had the
greatest increase in Latino population. Maybe he should've moved to the
North Pole!! <ggg>
"Not dealing with the spiritual life as one hoped" means one is not totally
swallowing the cultic bullshit, and being a proper eckanmissionary.
Sharon
--
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
Cher
know about god in the first place, much less expect people to accept her
word on anyone elses divinity. I really hope someday you get help.
Rich
Cher <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> There is no proof that what you suggest, that the input of untrained
> people makes the choice directly. All that you've shown us here is
that
> input is asked for. This doesn't prove "an ECK computer", or a roll of
> the dice or the word of some messed up or untrained person making this
> decision alone.
And the salient point is that multiple HI's give their input along with
the RESA, so one egocentric person who may be skewed is _not_ the
determining factor. And, the total of that input to Harold is only one
of several determinates, and he decides which take precedence in this
system of checks and balances.
Sharon2000
> You know sharon.... God only knows what a hateful person like you would
> know about god in the first place, much less expect people to accept her
> word on anyone elses divinity.
Grundie dear, I'm not claiming to know anything about God. I left the
cult; I'm no longer a god-realized chosen people, a co-worker with Suggie,
bubbling over with unconditional divine eckluuuuv and spreading it all over
the internet, like *you* are!!
>I really hope someday you get help.
>
Oh, I *do* have help, Grundie!! After all, I'm not the *only* alien
heathen pagan enemy of the eck who's posting here and doing websites!! I
wasn't the first, and I won't be the last.
But perhaps there are *others* out there who need *your* help - you see,
there are lurkers here at a.r.e. From my experience, well...you're not
really getting your message thru, since lots of 'em leave the cult, or
never join to begin with, because they sort of have the same questions I
did, and do, about what your "mahaunta" is preaching.
Please scroll down...this is a good opportunity for you to demonstrate
exactly how & why I'm sort of mixed up.
> Sharon2000 wrote:
> >
> > Cher <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > It appears to me to be reasonable, a RESA asking "do you know this
> > > person"? So what is the conspiracy theory behind this particular
> > > tidbit? I recall sharon attempting to embarrass ECKists by posting to
> > > a Buddhist newsgroup. The one thing that stuck with me out of her
> > > ridiculous lying to that group for her own purposes was the statement
> > > that people joining groups such as Eckankar were not being screened
> > > for unbalanced individuals.
> >
BTW - not important, but where's the statement about recruits not being
screened for "unbalance"?
Unless you're referring to some of the "chosen people teachings" I've
posted here, and many more I haven't, or have forgotten - the stuff I
learned when I joined, how I'd always been an eckists, how whether people
know it or not, they've always been with "the master" and made the mistake
of rejecting/leaving him in past lives, how you get an "invitation" to come
back in each life and by golly, if you're smart you'll join & stay, etc.
Klemp Himself has also told eckanmissionaries that they're simply providing
the "outer" connection to cult membership - that he's already contacted
them "on the inner". So...isn't this sort of "screening" on a
higher-than-physical level?
Damn, this all just doesn't make one bit of sense!!!
Hey...I can sort of understand, though. The way I resolved this when I was
a member was by figuring that Klemp just ran into me bopping around on
those "other planes" and took pity on me a few incarnations ahead of time,
just to try to keep me out of trouble. It obviously didn't work, but...he
didn't do very well at that haunted European hotel, even with the HIs, did
he?
> > <giggle> The funniest thing about when I used the pseudo "Gene" at the
> > Tibetan group was that Clergyman Tricky Dickie PickIt was lurking
> > there, and sent "Gene" a private email directing him to his old Oasis
> > site (complete with the disgusting Samorez Memorial Roster) for info
> > about e-kult.
> >
> > Your memory of this incident is a bit "off", Grundie. My only "lie"
> > was the name I used for posting - and I used a pseudo because I know
> > cult "clergy" lurks all over the internet, looking for people who might
> > be susceptible to recruitment, and I also made up a story about why I
> > was asking for opinions about the story posted by an eckist here at
> > a.r.e.
> >
> > Anyone interested in this incident can see some of the posts involved
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files.html - it's the
> > one about "How Eckmyths get started."
> >
Did you look at this stuff, Grundie? A cult member told a story, and then
retracted it after I challenged it. And the funny thing was, this
particular cult member started posting here with a different name & email
address that she was using here at a.r.e., and needless to say, what she
was writing to me privately was the total opposite of what she was posting
publicly here. I'd say that for whatever reasons, her private
correspondence to me was deceptive. I was a tad bit surprised when
suddenly, she switched to using the same name & email *here* that she'd
been using with me privately.
> > Well.... right here is a good example of how the inner is
> > > double checked on the outer, and you find fault with that? I see this
> > > as proof that we do try to screen out those who are not dealing with
> > > the spiritual life as one hoped.
> > >
But, you find fault with my double-checking the outer on the outer, which
did indeed result in the retraction of an eckmyth in the making????
> >
> > No, Grundie, what we see here is confirmation that there is no "inner",
> > when it comes to Weird Harold's "powers" as "mahanta".
> >
> > Think about it, Grundie. Your omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent
> > "mahanta", after battling the forces of evil all night on the other
> > planes, aided by his trusty HIs, he had to check out of the haunted
> > European hotel the next morning.
> >
I think I figured this one out, Grundie. Klemp was so busy "protecting"
all the paid members he didn't have enough "protection" left for those poor
captive souls at the hotel. And evidently those who had nightmares hadn't
done their bedtime hu-chants. <gg>
"Protection" comes with membership, Grundie. Here's a quote from the
"Membership Services and You" brochure:
"ECK membership includes:
* The constant protection and spiritual guidance of the Inner Master, the
Mahanta."
Don't recall the exact words of the story, but I believe Klemp said
something lie "they did what they could" to release them. So I
wonder...did his failure to release them have something to do with the fact
that they obviously weren't members? I wonder, since supposedly everyone
is exactly where they want & need & have chosen to be, did he check with
them first to see if they wanted to be released? An excerpt from the
story:
"This summer a group of us stayed at a hotel in a European city. Heavy
black magic had been practiced in the area. The vibrations were still so
strong that several of the people in our group had nightmares all night
long.
They sense entities trying to move into their bodies. We did what we could
to release some of the Souls who had been captured by the witches. In the
morning we checked out of the hotel and went someplace else."
This doesn't say much for Klemp's ability to "protect" cult members, does
it?
> > He fled AZ and moved the "temple" site to MN because of bad psychic
> > forces and the threat of a Latino invasion - well, Census2000 figures
> > show that evidently it was an off-EckVidya day for him, because MN has
> > since had the greatest increase in Latino population. Maybe he
> > should've moved to the North Pole!! <ggg>
> >
This is another one that you guys haven't been able to "spin"
satisfactorily. Marman's revelation that Klemp had told him *personally*
that he was moving the temple site for ecological reasons & a lack of
adequate convention facilities only makes it worse.
Sharon
--
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files.html
Sharon2000
> Sworddancer <brok...@cox.net> wrote
>
> > My point being that these recommendations were being given and being
> acted
> > upon based upon the personal opinions of people who may not have been
> > qualified or able to do accurate research into anothers spiritual
> > unfoldment.
>
> It's no surprise that Harold says just the opposite in
> "Riding" _and_ the guidelines.
>
I think you're lying here, Rich. I've posted enough stuff from the
"public" and lowbie-but-still-initiates-only books where Klemp admits he
couldn't handle more than a low number of "chelas" without the help of the
HIs, and telling lowbies to not trust their own "inner voice" and to
double-check with an HI, etc.
> Apostates and New Religious Movements
> http://germany.freedommag.org/experts/eng/wilson01.pdf
>
My goodness, do you realize how much this article applies to Twitchler?
<ggg>
> The disaffected and the
> apostate are in particular informants whose evidence has to be used
> with circumspection. The apostate is generally in need of self-
> justification.
Hmmmm...I recall a story I've posted about how Twitch was walking along the
seashore or something, moaning & groaning about his miserable failure of a
life and whining "Why Me?" and that's when he had the great flash - it was
because he was in training to become God Incarnate!!! <ggg> I wonder if
that was before or after he realized he'd been born of a virgin? <ggg>
> He seeks to reconstruct his own past, to excuse his
> former affiliations, and to blame those who were formerly his closest
> associates.
<giggle> Yep...doesn't this fit the Twitchster to a "t"??
> Not uncommonly the apostate learns to rehearse
> an 'atrocity story' to explain how, by manipulation, trickery,
> coercion, or deceit, he was induced to join or to remain within an
> organization that he now forswears and condemns.
Yep...the Twitch certain explained a lot of the manipulation, trickery,
coercion, deceit, etc., found in all other "paths" and "religions", and did
a good job bashing clergy, "masters", etc. Klemp does it, too.
Apostates,
> sensationalized by the press, have sometimes sought to make a profit
> from accounts of their experiences in stories sold to newspapers or
> produced as books (sometimes written by 'ghost' writers). [Bryan
> Wilson, The Social Dimensions of Sectarianism, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
> 1990, p.19.]
Well, Twitch would have loved to be sensationalized by the press, but he
had to settle for bitching privately about how Lobsang Rampa got more
support & promotion from his publisher. And then we've got the hilarious
"In My Soul I Am Free", a book full of lies and fictions, which of course
are now being blamed on Brad Steiger, who was just a schmuck willing to
allow himself to be used by a little con artist to make some money. I'm
sure Steiger is very embarrassed about his youthful indiscretion.
>
> Sociologists and other investigators into minority religions
> have thus come to recognize a particular constellation of motives that
> prompt apostates in the stance they adopt relative to their previous
> religious commitment and their more recent renunciation of it. The
> apostate needs to establish his credibility both with respect to his
> earlier conversion to a religious body and his subsequent
> relinquishment of that commitment.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about "establishing credibility".
The evidence I and others have posted speaks for itself.
However, I'd say Twitch worked hard in attempting to establish credibility,
just as the cult as a whole does today about those "lower paths" that
people must struggle through and experience before they work their way up
to e-kult membership.
> To vindicate himself in regard to
> his volte face requires a plausible explanation of both his (usually
> sudden) adherence to his erstwhile faith and his no less sudden
> abandonment and condemnation of it.
What comes to mind here is Twitch's comment, referring to his former
"master" L. Ron Hubbard, that there was a lot of money in religion. <gg>
How can we forget Jonestown, and the former members who went to Leo Ryan,
their congressman or senator, for help?
It's too bad that this particular apostate didn't just keep his/her (I
think it was a her) mouth shut, isn't it?
They all would have been *so* happy (and still alive) if it weren't for
this apostate.
>
> Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of
> law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source
> of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history
> predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious
> commitment and affiliations, the suspicion must arise that he acts from
> a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-
> esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently
> to have become a redeemed crusader.
>
Cults, sadly, are a fact of life. And so are cult apologists.
Rich
Sharon2000 <bright...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about "establishing credibility".
Obviously, given your own words about yourself below.
ECKANKAR STUDY
I wasn't that involved with the formal organization for most of my
almost 15 years in it.
======================================================================
There wasn't a whole lot of actual "physical"
contact, and I didn't have a lot of interaction with other eckists,
and wasn't able to get to a lot of satsangs & study groups
======================================================================
<giggle> I used to feel guilty because when there was a choice
between an eckfunction and a Habitat thing, I skipped the eckstuff.
======================================================================
I was *so* happy when an HI from my old home traveled all the way here
to have Satsangs. I was really sad when I was thrown out because when
you're in Satsang, well...if you miss three, you're out.
======================================================================
I didn't "practice" the "spiritual exercises" --
sitting down for 20 minutes a day, same time,
same place, and hypnotizing myself.
======================================================================
And as far as the "Light and Sound," well.. no
maybe I didn't "embrace and understand"
======================================================================
You know...and I've posted this...I don't know whether reincarnation
is true or not.
======================================================================
I can't say I believed or disbelieved, really. Well...I probably
believed/disbelieved in a lot of things, but mostly, well...
======================================================================
I don't really have a firm opinion on whether or not "evil" and "satan"
exist as Christianity teaches, but...if I *did* believe in that stuff
(and I don't exactly *disbelieve*, I'm undecided), well...it's quite
clear to me that Harold Klemp and many eckists are simply being
deceived and controlled by demonic influences.
======================================================================
At this point, I cannot honestly even say that I believe in God.
Or if I believe in "anything" in particular.
======================================================================
Anyway...talking about rest periods, I took a year off once.
Or, I tried to. Wrote and told MM I needed a year off, for
several reasons...I was really overwhelmed with school and
other things in life, and not able to give eckankar and my
"spiritual" life the time and attention it deserved, on the
inner and the outer.
<SNIP>
I'll be honest, I was sort of pissed off because I DIDN't get a
"rest period" at all!!! I figured...everything would just be
sort of "turned off" for a year. But...it wasn't. And...I
couldn't figure out why!
I mean, I'm not going to go into details or anything, just to
say that, well...aside from not having contact with the
discourses (which I'd been neglecting anyway) and the eckbooks
and not even thinking or doing what I recognize now as just
eckancrap, well....I just didn't get the "break" I wanted and
felt I needed.
======================================================================
SEX
That's great that you got out of high school early!! I did too...
<giggle> ... I was pregnant, and they kicked us out back then...I
could have kept my mouth shut about it, but, well...that's not me!
======================================================================
actually, you know...getting pregnant wasn't a mistake. More of an
"inner voice" thing, I'd say... I wasn't screwing around, and even
as a teenager knew exactly when I was ovulating...
======================================================================
They should pay you for those movies, you know. Hey...
years ago, a friend of mine knew some people... well...
she got $50 just for getting a guy "aroused" off camera!!!
I'll tell ya...I was IMPRESSED!!
=====================================================================
You know, I can't remember if it was four or five years ago,
but I was raped. It would have been easier if it had been a stranger
- and a minority group member, which would have given me somewhere to
aim my anger. But it happened to be a close friend, someone I'd known
for 20 years, someone who was like a brother. His wife & I were
friends. His mother & I were friends. I may have even been tempted
to have an affair with him under different circumstances...
=====================================================================
(Well...I'm certainly glad I don't have sex with priests, or
share needles with them! <g> And I'm glad AIDS wasn't around
back in my grandparents' time, when my grandfather was drinking
and going to the whorehouses with the priests. He might have
infected my grandmother!
=====================================================================
Okay, I went to confession once before Easter, that's what's required.
Forgot all the formal words of course, just told Father Neil I felt I
hadn't really sinned, okay I wasn't perfect but talked to God all the
time, and was working on it. Okay...I'd "fornicated" a lot, but
sorry...I don't think you need a license. Just love. Without love,
yes...it's a sin. Okay, I've sinned. So...I got absolved. Wasn't
necessary...I stopped having sex without love a long time ago...but
that was an "inner" thing... <giggle>...anyway, actually, well...
I *did* genuinely always love a lot of people!! Still do...in
different ways, perhaps...
======================================================================
I think sometimes, well...when the third eye opens, and you get that
kundalini stuff happening, well...what you attract isn't always GOOD!
That's what happened to me, you know!!! It's sort of like a homing
signal for psychic-level vampires...the scent of fresh innocent blood..
======================================================================
I had to laugh when the doctor said I should do Kegels...
<giggle> You know...I've been doing them for over 30
years...they become a habit...
======================================================================
Anyway, the only past-life memories I ever had (supposedly) was of
being a slut in ancient Greece and again in 15th-16th century France.
In Greece, I was a young priestess on a mission who got distracted by
some guy...I think he was a shepherd. Then supposedly this same guy
was my coachman in France, and we were screwing around.
======================================================================
DRUGS
Tried coke two or three times...three, now that I think of it. The
first two times, I exhaled...<giggle> ... really! My friends were
a bit upset. The third time...I got it right. Damn, did the
housework get done fast!! Really!! Honestly...that kitty litter pan
was so clean, you could eat out of it!! I polished, disinfected, and
dried it with cloth diapers left over from Amy...
Coming down was *NASTY* ... but it helped
me to understand why people got hooked on the stuff. I didn't like
it...it just wasn't "real." Never touched it again...
Another time...a scumbag put a chunk of crack in the hash pipe...and
silly me, I said "this doesn't taste like hash." That was a DIRTY
thing to do to a person...but I must say, it *is* possible to sort of
detach, refuse to participate in the effects, but to observe and learn
from it. Nasty, nasty stuff...a lot worse than just snorting the
powder...more deceptive, bigger & more powerful illusions...
======================================================================
So...have to laugh at this one...I was standing in line for
something at school, a couple hundred kids all over, but...I'm
a mom. We sort of scan the floor...and by golly, there was a
little rolled-up baggie at my feet! Moms pick things up, you
know...
Well, son of a gun, guess what it was!! Hadn't seen anything
like it (or smoked it) in probably 10 years...absolutely
beautiful golden sinsemilla, with lovely streaks of red...
Asked the people around me if they'd dropped it...lots of big
eyes & "Oh Wow's" but no one claimed it...
Didn't quite know what to do with it...didn't feel right about
giving it to someone, since that might hurt them in some
way...and damn, the stuff always helped me to
sleep, just half a joint after the kids were tucked in...
On the other hand, well...drugs are a no-no. But...could it
be some kind of gift, or test, or what?
Plus...I'm not a wasteful person. What I picked up was what
used to be a "dime" bag -- $10 - and one of the students said
it would cost around $50...they were amazed when I told them
I used to pay $15 for a big baggie of primo Columbian Gold...
Held onto it for a few days, thinking, taking it "on the inner"
and everything. Looking at every possible thing I could do, and
what would result from each choice I could possibly make in this
situation...
I decided...I was tired. I'd been bothered by not giving my
contemplations time & attention anyway, just overwhelmed with
everything...needed a break from something, but you can't drop
school, family, and everything else...
So...I smoked it. Got back on track with the sleeping, wrote to
the org for a year off, told them what I did, and the other
reasons for needing a break...
==================================================================
Grundie, 2 or 3 beers is *nothing*. Two or three sixpacks,
maybe...but by that time I'd be asleep, and not thinking
about your silly little cult & everything connected with it.
===================================================================
HOME
Where I live, there's some really nice forest, then a town,
then a smelly landfill...
=======================================================================
You know, maybe moving to this horrible tin can was sort of
a "waking dream" ... an "outer" sign of the "inner" eckankar
thing....
======================================================================
half my tree had fallen on the trailer!!! A really BIG TREE!!!
But...NO DAMAGE!!!
...everyone is *amazed* that it actually felt right on my
trailer & you can't even tell!! Well...one shingle is sort of bent...
and the rain gutter was already a bit saggy...
=======================================================================
But I'll tell you... you wouldn't *believe* the piles of
books-to-be-read I've accumulated in the past months...the piles are
unreal, although I just managed to get most of them in big boxes while
I put up more bookshelves....
=======================================================================
the carpet's been rolled up in my hallway for three years now,
I tore out the trailer's carpeting last year (most of it)
because of my allergies
=======================================================================
HEALTH
Well, not to be indelicate...but for almost 25 years, until I had the
hysterectomy, that's what I called that monthly thing.
======================================================================
anyway...oh, one of my symptoms was also agoraphobia!! It
was weird, I knew it wasn't *me* ...and refused to participate
in it!! Although it was hard sometimes...
======================================================================
And, I'd been having problems sleeping.
I'd be exhausted, but even after a busy day with school & the
house & my son & the critters & everything else, well...still
couldn't sleep.
======================================================================
Isn't that fatigue a bitch? I'll tell you, I'd be scared
to death at times...it was like being in a coma, for three
or four hours, sometimes...I'd look like I was asleep, but
be totally aware...and know that if the trailer caught on
fire, I'd be unable to get out....
======================================================================
Cloth diapers wouldn't work for adults, Frank...no
plastic lining.
Actually...it's not really funny, and women shouldn't
be embarrassed about it. It happens...had that problem
myself, when I had all the health problems...and the
severe coughing. I'd even pass out sometimes. But I
found Serenity worked best...never felt embarrassed about
buying them. In fact, sometimes grocery store clerks would
ask...tell me they had the same problem...they seemed to
feel better when they found out they weren't alone...
I'm glad that's over with...and by golly, as I suspected,
smoking had NOTHING to do with the coughing. Anyway...
a lot of women end up having surgery for it...
======================================================================
(yeah, I know about that memory loss...brain fog...once,
I couldn't remember the names of my grandchildren, in a store...)
======================================================================
I'm blind as a bat without my glasses!!! Gotta get
used to the contacts again, I guess. Allergies sort of make it
difficult...
======================================================================
I'm sensitive to molds & certain perfumes....
======================================================================
And...way back in my dieting years, went to Overeaters
Anonymous...but I must say, thought THAT one was weird...
wow, people get weird about food! I'm just allergic to
most of the darn stuff...miss burritoes, actually. (sp?)
======================================================================
You know...in my early eckyears, I had this awful problem with
spastic colitis...for several years. Worse than natural
childbirth, let me tell you!! Doctors said give up the coffee...
I did. Tried a lot of things. Mostly...just had to live with
it, cope with it...and survive.
======================================================================
For some reason, an all protein diet...especially beef, often RAW...
works wonders for me.
======================================================================
my cervical cancer & hysterectomy in 1985,
======================================================================
You know, I've recently found out, it looks like I've got
that fibromyalgia...and have had it most of my life.
======================================================================
...and now, with carpal tunnel symptoms (which are also
fibromyalgia)
I know I have problems with a lot of hand-writing...pain and
numbness, for some reason, doesn't interfere with using a
computer, though...
======================================================================
MISC
==================================================================
I almost got my brother's gun, but didn't because I knew I'd use it.
And for a long time, it got to the point where I was having fantasies
about blowing away a man, any man, before I died.
==============================================================
I carry my gun down my bra....much easier to get to when I need it...
==================================================================
And I've got a good alarm system, a watchdog, and a gun - so any
thieves, murders, and rapists will leave me alone and go attack my
next door neighbor.
So I've got the face of Satan on my shower curtain. I haven't been
reacting to it. I just noted its presence. I think about the Eck
Masters, and place their faces over that of Satan. Okay, I could
iron the shower curtain (On low heat, of course, it's plastic). I
could throw it out and buy another. When it gets a bit moldy I'll
wash it, & that'll re-arrange the wrinkles. But I'm basically lazy,
I don't iron, and I pay for water by the gallon. It'll go away on
its own when it sees it's wasting its time.
======================================================================
I don't think of myself as a "garbage-picker," really...a few
of my friends just say that I'm the ultimate "recycler!"
======================================================================
For whatever reason, perhaps it's genetic, <g> I am incapable
of transcribing things exactly as dictated....something inside
just gives me the inclination to do it *my* way...
======================================================================
I didn't have *any* German in high school, but I *did* flunk both
French and Spanish!!
======================================================================
The oddest
thing happened....I was in the grocery store, and the
woman in front of me forgot to pick up a bag with a dozen eggs in it.
Normally, well...I would have taken them and run after her. I do
things like that. But it was strange....and I thought
"Why the heck am I doing this?" I kept them. Took them home.
======================================================================
hey, a lot of these people are perfectly capable of getting a job
washing dishes. Or maybe cleaning a highway rest stop. <giggle> You
know...that was my first job when I graduated with my BA in 1995...
======================================================================
Actually...I like Jesus. He's dead. Sort of. Not
really. It's like...my grandmother is still alive. She
lives in my heart...that's what the resurrection is all
about, sort of. Only...moreso. Anyway...I like
Christianity. Lots of freedom of choice...informed consent...
no psychic alien mind-beams & stuff...
I have to agree....one thing I DO NOT
like about Christianity is that threat of the
resurrection of the body!!!! I've had different
interpretations...and oh horrors, yes...some sects says
that even if I have the damn thing cremated, God can
STILL bring it back!!!!!
Don't know what the heck Catholicism teaches...
Personally, if I come back, I wouldn't mind being a rock,
or a tree, or a cat....not one who's kept indoors, though.
Well...whether I come back, or go to heaven (or a
reasonable facsimile) I *would* like a new body & curly
red hair if I'm going to be human (or a reasonable
facsimile of a human.)
======================================================================
HEY ECKIES!!!! GUESS WHAT I DID!!! I'M HAVING MASSES SAID FOR THE
POOR LOST SOUL OF PAUL TWITCHELL!!!!! Not because I necessarily
*believe* but hey, it certainly can't hurt...plus...IT'LL IRRITATE
THE HELL OUT OF HIM!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
======================================================================
I snore, you know...haven't heard it myself, but the grandkids tease
me about it...
======================================================================
And next time I'm out in the woods doing a sort of nekkid Wicca ritual
(except I can never keep track of what color candles you're supposed to
use for what...I just use what I pick up on clearance racks)
======================================================================
Fall is GORGEOUS!!! A bit chilly for Wiccan stuff <ggg> but last
Samhain, it was quite warm in my rock circle....
======================================================================
But anyway, yeah...as Spring approaches, my pagan blood starts stirring
I've been practicing all winter for a big Spring ritual, sort of,
because well when you're out in the woods there aren't any potties
around...but, darn, I always forget the name & date of the official
Spring holiday. Haven't done one of those really big
nekkid-in-the-circle-under-the-trees things since the totally awesome
purification-from-the-cult ritual I did back on Halloween 1998, and it
*did* feel incredibly purifying. And warm inside the circle.
======================================================================
I wouldn't hurt anyone anymore than I'd hurt a fly. Whoops....no,
I think flies are dirty and disgusting. I swat them, and then, because
I don't like squished flies, I put the bodies in the ashtray, which is
always handy. But, because years ago I noticed they're not always dead
when you think they are, and they'd recover and fly off, well...you
know, I always have my BIC handy. So...I'd torch them to make sure.
Then... once one started sort of spinning around. It was pretty neat.
So.... before I torch them totally, sometimes I'll just hold the BIC on
one side and watch them spin around...
======================================================================
I'm surprised...I used the "f" word twice here yesterday. I
don't usually swear...don't
even *think* the "f" word usually. Well, I guess I do swear...
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&btnG=Google+Search&as_oq=f++fuck&a
s_eq=&as_ugroup=alt.religion.eckankar&as_uauthors=sharon
======================================================================
PS...I'm not an OLD bag. I'm a middle-aged one for a few more
years. Except maybe under my eyes.
Honest to God, I'd read ages ago that Miss America contestants used
Preparation H under their eyes to tighten up the skin...ha, like
Miss America contestants have a problem there. Anyway...I tried it,
but it didn't work for me. Plus it's pretty yukky and hard to wash
off.
======================================================================
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how
to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."
Well, actually I prefer to fish from shore, but after a few
beers I was feeling really spirichul so I got down on my knees
in the proper position that my Master likes best...and by
golly, It Works For Me!!!!
======================================================================
I don't think I'm pathetic or dumb. I do a hell of a lot better job
of being hateful & nasty than *they* do, don't you think? <ggg>
And the longer I'm at it, the better I get!!
======================================================================
God, I am SUCH a bitch!!!! <ggg> I LOVE IT!!!!
======================================================================
Actually, the only thing I remain "loyal and true" to is the fact that
I'm a bitch, an *ornery* bitch...
======================================================================
But you know, it's just like aliens...darn, I would *love* to talk to
some, you know? Had one who used to play my Atari, but it
didn't say much. Ended up hogging the Atari & wouldn't let me
have a turn, so I just sort of ignored it, and it went away.
Didn't even have to waste my time using a handy-dandy all
purpose "spell" against entities...basically, it's just "F*** off,
asswipe" ...
======================================================================
Subject: Re: Sharon on Sharon
Date: 07 Jan 2001 05:11:05 GMT ***
From: Sharo...@playful.com
Organization: Eckankar Sucks
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
"Oh...there's a lot of joking in the quotes you posted,
but on the whole after scanning through them quickly,
I'd say yeah...they're accurate"
***note A few quotes were added in since the post just above.
Cher
Cher
yap....