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Not afraid to question Eckankar dogma
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Etznab
Oct 14, 2018, 9:30:49 AM10/14/18
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What if Rebazar Tarzs was Paul Twitchell in character and that character died when he did?
Once could ask these questions given the real factual evidence that exists. For example:
All of the copied passages from library and other books said (by Paul Twitchell) to come from Rebazar Tarzs, the fact that Paul's widow named his successor and there is not much heard from her in years. Etc. (If "the whole Eckankar thing" was true and not made up by Paul, then would not the founder's wife of all people still be a member?)
These are only a few things that I have looked at over the years. And then there was James Davis who wrote a book about the Mahanta, but has since joined the conga line of those disillusioned, disenchanted, disappointed or discouraged with the organizational descriptions of fact vs. fiction and / or the kind of worship members bestowed on others. Some quotes:
"[...] What initially attracted me to Eckankar was the belief that it was the most complete and best integration of spiritual wisdom and practice on the planet. It took some time, experience, and a lot of study and reading to realize that it was not an integration at all, but actually a disjoint amalgamation of often incompatible and contradictory parts extracted from several traditions. [...] Paul had a knack for ferreting out jewels of wisdom in other traditions, whichhe threw together recklessly and with little coherence or integrity. Then he weakened it further by mixing in orthodox religious elements and his own
inventions. I think this is not apparent to most Eckists because they never do
an in-depth and systematic study of the entire body of Eckankar literature,
especially in context of Paul's sources. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/X-7FRUeCQ3E/CQhE6uutwxMJ
This is the book from a current link.
https://www.eckbooks.org/items/The_Rosetta_Stone_of_God-131-3.html
I think the purpose of an organizational dogma is to preserve some semblance of integrity to the original message of the founder. To preserve this among many varied interpretations by the members and those READING or HEARING the dogma as spelled out by clergy and the leadership. Written words can have the effect of serving to preserve certain tenants. Better yet, real LIVING masters in a real LIVING unbroken line of masters would perform a better job in my estimation as they could correct any flaws in interpretation based on their own personal and hard won experience and knowledge.
As an observer of many things on record and in the public domain about dogma and fact vs. fiction one might contemplate How to preserve the integrity of a dogma composed of multiple passages from various traditions and beliefs paraphrased, plagiarized and / or more or less copied and reproduced by a single individual and the "one man path" that he named Eckankar? In other words, How to preserve the integrity of teachings if they did not come from LIVING masters of a path by the same name? Of course it was suggested that Eckankar didn't always carry that name, hinting that it might have had other names in the past. However, all of the spiritual traditions mentioned as spokes with Eckankar as the hub ... along with the many names of spiritual persons from history somehow allied to the path of Eckankar as either chelas or mahantas, etc.? What is with this? What is fact and what is fiction?
The questions would not be asked if not for the contradictions between fact and fiction and a sincere desire for clarification. A desire for the truth vs. a "feel good" story based on myths, or an outright lie.
One could observe how the organizational structure of Eckankar asks for yearly donations and advancement is contingent upon contacting the organization one a year about your annual donation amount; whether you can pay the suggested amount, or not along with a number of other factors including: how well one is liked by clergy, what is a person's level of participation in Eckankar events, how the individual interprets popular Eckankar dogma, etc.
A chela once asked whether they were responsible for any mistakes made by the Living Eck Master(s). Seeing that some people were of the belief that everything that happens to a person was their own karma of which they, the individual, were responsible. I thought it was a gross misinterpretation of words that is popular with some individuals where blame gets projected against the observer, or the one defendant. That was the reason I asked the question. The answer of which I hold in relative confidence to this day because we were asked to keep it this way as part of the organizational dogma.
Perhaps not everyone remembers it, but Harold Klemp once echoed the sentiment that yes there are things a person might suffer from that were the creations of other people and were not their responsibility. In my home town I can think of at least one example where the government fashioned a bomb resulting in waste from that project finding its way into the soil and where it remains to this day buried on a flood plain! Now some would argue that all the people sickened from industrial waste created and disposed of even before they were born, somehow is the responsibility of the ones who get sickened, or suffer from it. Yet I also remember Harold suggesting something to the contrary.
Members of religion sometimes believe what they want to believe regardless what others think, say or believe.
How about all the Jews that died in the Holocaust? Were they responsible for their deaths? Was it their karma? AND YET SOMEONE CLAIMED IN A BOOK THAT THEY WERE!!!
"The greatest portion of these six million came at that time to sacrifice self, to make your planet earth aware that there were those who would attempt to rule and control humanity."
https://tinyurl.com/ya7gc5er
I believe the book referenced was by Dr. James H. Hurtak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wznjMjmqQU
The message was claimed to come from an advanced being, one of The Council of Nine (or something along those lines) to be the case. And the author of that book "The Keys of Enoch" (?) is popular among New Age circles.
Another book, The Stargate Conspiracy, that commented about Hurtak's book had this to say:
"Also rather disturbing is the Nine's attitude of the Holocaust. They uphold the Jews as the Chosen People, but remonstrate with them for not accepting Jesus - 'the last one of us' - as Messiah. Tom speaks of the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were exterminated by Hitler, with huge sorrow, yet claims it was an act of self-sacrifice and salvation:"
[The Stargate Conspiracy, Lynn Picknett & Clive Prince, pp. 193-195]
That was the paragraph subsequent to my earlier quote.
Was this Tome really a master from some council of Nine? Or was it the echo of some twisted imagination written in a book that some people later read and came to believe?
My point is that an ancient teaching with an unbroken lineage of real LIVING masters ... masters who actually take part in the teachings (and are not claimed to be hiding out on the world's tallest mountain), the integrity of that teaching is easier to preserve because their is consistency and word of mouth communication between one real LIVING master to the next.
Paul Twitchell as a LIVING master did not name his successor (his widow did).
Paul Twitchell's successor, Darwin Gross, was "removed" by Harold Klemp (and also supposedly by the Vairagi masters, what have you) and harold has remained the living Eck master to this day.
What was communicated by word of mouth between the real LIVING Eckankar masters that are proven by history? The last two (Darwin and Harold) fought in court! And the last two argued over who was "the real deal"!
Over ten years now I have publicly questioned whether Rebazar Tarzs is, or ever was a real LIVING master. The one that Paul characterized and reportedly took dictation from, etc. At first I just looked at the conversations going on in this and other online groups. Later I began to research it myself. Today I still ask the question in spite of any wacko a.r.e. trolls, bots, or Eckankar members who wish, or imagine in their minds, I am not also a member.
How can that be? How can there be a member of Eckankar who would publicly ask such questions and want to start a dialogue / discussion about it?
How could there be a member of any religion not afraid to question the dogma? There could be when the individual is not afraid of fighting for the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXn7p5awC0I
Once could ask these questions given the real factual evidence that exists. For example:
All of the copied passages from library and other books said (by Paul Twitchell) to come from Rebazar Tarzs, the fact that Paul's widow named his successor and there is not much heard from her in years. Etc. (If "the whole Eckankar thing" was true and not made up by Paul, then would not the founder's wife of all people still be a member?)
These are only a few things that I have looked at over the years. And then there was James Davis who wrote a book about the Mahanta, but has since joined the conga line of those disillusioned, disenchanted, disappointed or discouraged with the organizational descriptions of fact vs. fiction and / or the kind of worship members bestowed on others. Some quotes:
"[...] What initially attracted me to Eckankar was the belief that it was the most complete and best integration of spiritual wisdom and practice on the planet. It took some time, experience, and a lot of study and reading to realize that it was not an integration at all, but actually a disjoint amalgamation of often incompatible and contradictory parts extracted from several traditions. [...] Paul had a knack for ferreting out jewels of wisdom in other traditions, whichhe threw together recklessly and with little coherence or integrity. Then he weakened it further by mixing in orthodox religious elements and his own
inventions. I think this is not apparent to most Eckists because they never do
an in-depth and systematic study of the entire body of Eckankar literature,
especially in context of Paul's sources. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/X-7FRUeCQ3E/CQhE6uutwxMJ
This is the book from a current link.
https://www.eckbooks.org/items/The_Rosetta_Stone_of_God-131-3.html
I think the purpose of an organizational dogma is to preserve some semblance of integrity to the original message of the founder. To preserve this among many varied interpretations by the members and those READING or HEARING the dogma as spelled out by clergy and the leadership. Written words can have the effect of serving to preserve certain tenants. Better yet, real LIVING masters in a real LIVING unbroken line of masters would perform a better job in my estimation as they could correct any flaws in interpretation based on their own personal and hard won experience and knowledge.
As an observer of many things on record and in the public domain about dogma and fact vs. fiction one might contemplate How to preserve the integrity of a dogma composed of multiple passages from various traditions and beliefs paraphrased, plagiarized and / or more or less copied and reproduced by a single individual and the "one man path" that he named Eckankar? In other words, How to preserve the integrity of teachings if they did not come from LIVING masters of a path by the same name? Of course it was suggested that Eckankar didn't always carry that name, hinting that it might have had other names in the past. However, all of the spiritual traditions mentioned as spokes with Eckankar as the hub ... along with the many names of spiritual persons from history somehow allied to the path of Eckankar as either chelas or mahantas, etc.? What is with this? What is fact and what is fiction?
The questions would not be asked if not for the contradictions between fact and fiction and a sincere desire for clarification. A desire for the truth vs. a "feel good" story based on myths, or an outright lie.
One could observe how the organizational structure of Eckankar asks for yearly donations and advancement is contingent upon contacting the organization one a year about your annual donation amount; whether you can pay the suggested amount, or not along with a number of other factors including: how well one is liked by clergy, what is a person's level of participation in Eckankar events, how the individual interprets popular Eckankar dogma, etc.
A chela once asked whether they were responsible for any mistakes made by the Living Eck Master(s). Seeing that some people were of the belief that everything that happens to a person was their own karma of which they, the individual, were responsible. I thought it was a gross misinterpretation of words that is popular with some individuals where blame gets projected against the observer, or the one defendant. That was the reason I asked the question. The answer of which I hold in relative confidence to this day because we were asked to keep it this way as part of the organizational dogma.
Perhaps not everyone remembers it, but Harold Klemp once echoed the sentiment that yes there are things a person might suffer from that were the creations of other people and were not their responsibility. In my home town I can think of at least one example where the government fashioned a bomb resulting in waste from that project finding its way into the soil and where it remains to this day buried on a flood plain! Now some would argue that all the people sickened from industrial waste created and disposed of even before they were born, somehow is the responsibility of the ones who get sickened, or suffer from it. Yet I also remember Harold suggesting something to the contrary.
Members of religion sometimes believe what they want to believe regardless what others think, say or believe.
How about all the Jews that died in the Holocaust? Were they responsible for their deaths? Was it their karma? AND YET SOMEONE CLAIMED IN A BOOK THAT THEY WERE!!!
"The greatest portion of these six million came at that time to sacrifice self, to make your planet earth aware that there were those who would attempt to rule and control humanity."
https://tinyurl.com/ya7gc5er
I believe the book referenced was by Dr. James H. Hurtak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wznjMjmqQU
The message was claimed to come from an advanced being, one of The Council of Nine (or something along those lines) to be the case. And the author of that book "The Keys of Enoch" (?) is popular among New Age circles.
Another book, The Stargate Conspiracy, that commented about Hurtak's book had this to say:
"Also rather disturbing is the Nine's attitude of the Holocaust. They uphold the Jews as the Chosen People, but remonstrate with them for not accepting Jesus - 'the last one of us' - as Messiah. Tom speaks of the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were exterminated by Hitler, with huge sorrow, yet claims it was an act of self-sacrifice and salvation:"
[The Stargate Conspiracy, Lynn Picknett & Clive Prince, pp. 193-195]
That was the paragraph subsequent to my earlier quote.
Was this Tome really a master from some council of Nine? Or was it the echo of some twisted imagination written in a book that some people later read and came to believe?
My point is that an ancient teaching with an unbroken lineage of real LIVING masters ... masters who actually take part in the teachings (and are not claimed to be hiding out on the world's tallest mountain), the integrity of that teaching is easier to preserve because their is consistency and word of mouth communication between one real LIVING master to the next.
Paul Twitchell as a LIVING master did not name his successor (his widow did).
Paul Twitchell's successor, Darwin Gross, was "removed" by Harold Klemp (and also supposedly by the Vairagi masters, what have you) and harold has remained the living Eck master to this day.
What was communicated by word of mouth between the real LIVING Eckankar masters that are proven by history? The last two (Darwin and Harold) fought in court! And the last two argued over who was "the real deal"!
Over ten years now I have publicly questioned whether Rebazar Tarzs is, or ever was a real LIVING master. The one that Paul characterized and reportedly took dictation from, etc. At first I just looked at the conversations going on in this and other online groups. Later I began to research it myself. Today I still ask the question in spite of any wacko a.r.e. trolls, bots, or Eckankar members who wish, or imagine in their minds, I am not also a member.
How can that be? How can there be a member of Eckankar who would publicly ask such questions and want to start a dialogue / discussion about it?
How could there be a member of any religion not afraid to question the dogma? There could be when the individual is not afraid of fighting for the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXn7p5awC0I
Etznab
Oct 14, 2018, 9:45:47 AM10/14/18
to
It has all (a lot of what I'm referring to) been spelled out here in a.r.e. and become a public record that others can view for themselves. That future generations can look back on and marvel about how certain fighting could be caused by imaginations run amuck.
DaSilva
Oct 31, 2018, 12:51:40 PM10/31/18
to
"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:25e4ae7f-5bf3-4814...@googlegroups.com...
The ultimate test of the soul is that final moment, when one has the choice
of letting it all go, or clinging to it and coming back.
Letting everything go, as one must, eventually , is the thing.
Message has been deleted
Etznab
Nov 3, 2018, 8:04:57 AM11/3/18
to
The long scheme of religious history, the fighting, the wars, the deaths ... did it matter then? Did any of this matter then? I'm your opinion?
History doesn't forget, IMO, regardless of what humans record. And that history is what matters as it is the process that creates and destroys the world that the life forms know.
I believe there is a perfect record of history and there is the imagination of what actually happened in history and they are not always on the same par.
Did you see the recent quote about imagination? I will try to find it.
History doesn't forget, IMO, regardless of what humans record. And that history is what matters as it is the process that creates and destroys the world that the life forms know.
I believe there is a perfect record of history and there is the imagination of what actually happened in history and they are not always on the same par.
Did you see the recent quote about imagination? I will try to find it.
Etznab
Nov 3, 2018, 8:10:21 AM11/3/18
to
"How does this fit into imagination and history? Very simply, for the imaginative faculty can be used for good or bad. It makes little difference to the ECK power how it is used." (pp. 77-78)
So Paul specified that imagination could be used for good or bad, etc. And I wonder how many deaths and wars in the past and continue today as a result of unbridled (by the actual truth) imaginations?
So Paul specified that imagination could be used for good or bad, etc. And I wonder how many deaths and wars in the past and continue today as a result of unbridled (by the actual truth) imaginations?
Etznab
Nov 3, 2018, 8:11:16 AM11/3/18
to
In your opinion.
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