POLL OF EX-ECKISTS
Chuck Stockdale
little information on Ex-Eckists like myself. I would like to know how many
of you are here. If it would not be too much trouble would you please post
a brief description of how you got into Eckankar, your experiences, and what
happened that made you leave.
I am trying to get an overview and to see what patterns might develop in
this thread and just to compare notes.
I'll start with myself:
I read Fate Magazine articles on Paul Twitchell and bilocation in 1971.
Joined Eckankar right after Paul Twitchell died and Darwin Gross took over
in 1972. Went through the second initiation took a one year rest and resumed
study receiving third initiation shortly afterward.
When the Gross/Klemp battle ensued for control of Eckankar, I accepted the
home office explanation and turned my head the other way for a while. I
thought the whole struggle was odd though. I read that the higher you go in
Eck, the harder you fall should you listen to the siren song of the Kal.
The experience was like driving by an auto accident and you're tring to see
whats going on but the authorities are waving you past with big flashlights
if you try to slown down for a little rubbernecking.
I did my share of leaving copies of "Key to Secret Worlds" in laundromats,
giving Eck lectures, teaching satsang, even opened an Eck Center in my area.
I think it was a combination of things that were starting to accumulate such
as the Klemp/Gross thing and the way the home office dealt with the
situation that started my disenchantment with Eckankar. I was doing the
spiritual exercises pretty regularly and was having reasonable success with
many of the techniques etc. I never met any of the masters besides Klemp and
Gross, none of the alleged Vairagi masters. I did experience conscious
travel into some of the planes descibed in the Tigers Fang including the
mental plane. I experienced my world view there as an actual structure and I
saw symbols and multidimensional concepts that are unexplainable. I saw how
the higher planes were intimately connected to, and permitted the existence
of the ones below them in vibratory frequency.
I never saw anything like a Kal Niranjan in my travels. Has anyone else ever
seen this entity which is described throughout the Eck writings?
The pull of Eckankar away from the physical, was making me innefective in
many of the things I longed to do in life. The idea found throughout the Eck
writings, that spiritual pursuits are the only worthwhile efforts in life,
was causing terrible inner conflict. In a soul travel experience, I had
remembered wanting very much to be born so as to be able to experience these
very things that I longed to do such as become a pilot, play rock music,
experience the wonders of loin gratification, etc.
After remembering my birth and being an infant lying there in a crib day
after day slowly forgetting who I was, it suddenly dawned on me that the
problem was not being successful in having an out of body experience, but
rather the difficulty of having an in-body experience.
I started to remember that I had come here for the purpose of totally
immersing myself in these experiences but with the intention of waking
myself up within the dream so I could retain the awareness of my larger self
during this incarnating process. I realized that great regret at the end of
life would not come from lack of renunciation and spiritual pursuits, but
from lack of doing all things physical that one longs to do.
My common sense started to return as I read SETH books by Jane Roberts such
as "The Nature of Personal Reality", "The Afterdeath Journal of An American
Philosopher", "Illusions" by Richard Bach, "You'll See It When You Believe
it by Wayne Dyer, and many others. I decided to just wholeheartedly LIVE
without undue concern for that which comes after this life.
I walked away from Eckankar in 1986 after much soul searching, self de
programming and slowly reasoning away the fear of loss that was self
programmed subtly and at times not so subtly into me from the Eck teachings.
Family and friend relations started to take on the evenness that they once
had as I saw them as spiritual equals with myself. By no longer accepting
karma as a law, I disengaged myself from that klunky checks and balances
sort of misunderstanding of life that surrounds this belief. I had never
seen a Kal entity or talked to any person that had. I discovered that this
entity and all the negative imagery surrounding him existed only in the
anxious hearts and minds of those that accepted and believed in his
existence. I came to see that only God and options exist in life.
Free of the tryannical belief in opposing negative forces and the total
divesting of myself of the concept of earth as a harsh spiritual training
boot camp, the world slowly showed me more evidence of its friendliness,
goodwill, intelligence and cooperation in working with each of us in our
lives. I learned that the world exists FOR the purpose of bringing all that
we long for and desire into our lives as this is the modus operandi of
extracting feeling, the prize of existence, from all these experiences.
The diverse drama of human existence seemed commensurate with the spectrum
of pictures and imaginary images that all the people of the world are
capable of holding in their attention. I no longer saw experiences as
positive or negative, but just results from these pictures that are held in
the hearts and minds of each of us.
Well I've got go now, more another time. Please take the time to post
something about your experience in this thread.
Thanks,
Chuck
gruendemann
ex-eckists seem to hang out on. It's called
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/eckankarhistory
It is mostly a David Lane group, as he's the chief deconstructionist
around here. Just look for the hard hat, that'll be him!
Len
The comings and goings over at Lane's site is bizarre. The fact
that the name is The Life and Times of
Paul Twitchell...well it might as well be The Life and Times of The Easter
Bunny.
Len
"gruendemann" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:39B5054E...@worldnet.att.net...
gruendemann
LOL....... (til my sides hurt!)
cheryl.....
Chuck Stockdale
>It might also help to balance the posts if the Eckists here also told why
>they left the previous religion of choice and came and stayed in Eckankar.
>There are stories of horror in all religious teachings. Eckankar is not
>unique.
> I once went intot he confessional. Mind you, I felt a bit boring when I
>noticed the priest flipping through a peanuts comic on his lap visible
>underneath his curtain. So much for the dedicated priest.
> I also got tired of the priest using the sermon section of the mass to beg
>for money for a new airconditioner for his church. Why not have the Pope
>sell one of those many jewels out of his crown of glory atop that silly
>little head of his.
> I somehow don't remember Christ mentioning he was needing money from his
>followers for a burger and fries.
> I believe all this belly-aching the ex's do can be found in any
>organization.
> Isn't that how the Lutherans,Methodists and all other religions sprang
>forth from the Catholic church. Wasn't it the disgruntled members who were
>called Heretics and not even given a forum to spout off in?
> There is Alt.catholicism recovery in the newsgroups area, I believe and
>there is a place in all the newsgroups for the pity parties. Why not start
>your own little pity parties on your own. Or better yet, form your own
>off-shoot and leave those who are content to serve Spirit the room to do
so.
Chuck replied:
My intention is just to compare the experiences of others who have left
Eckankar to my own. I don't need pity as I know that reality is self
ordained. I have had very little contact in the last 15 years with people
who are, or have previously been involved in Eckankar.
My purpose is not detraction or deconstruction. The vast information highway
that we are communicating on right now, has made it possible for the first
time in history, to make this sort of instantaneous contact and share
information with others.
I am serving spirit by virtue of the fact that I am alive, that is all that
is necessary. Many over the course of recorded history have committed
atrocities while firmly believing that they are serving spirit.
There is no spiritual microwave oven or Zebco rod and reel awaiting the
faithful in the hereafter as a reward for what they believe are services to
spirit. These activities only affect how you regard yourself.
There is no battle against negative forces for which spirit would need any
warriors. This imagery is a fabrication of those who would seek to control
others.
In my posts here thus far, I have acknowldged what in my reckoning is the
actual services that the religion of Eckankar provides, and I have also
stated what are in my estimation, limiting and controlling factors as well.
These are only my experiences and opinions and as such may be completely
wrong for anyone else to accept as truth.
Sincerely,
Chuck
gruendemann
Chuck,
When I read your post I wondered..... have you found a path that is what
you have described? I have to admit, that I cannot imagine Eckankar
suddenly erasing the aspects of Karma and reincarnation for the belief
that all is "goodness and light". This is a world of duality, we will
always have this energy exchange called positive and negative. IMHO.....
I also have to say that from what you say of the LEM and Mahanta.... I
don't see these as control issues. I do respect their spiritual experience
but that is different from the so called organizational aspects you
mentioned. This just isn't what I've experienced in Eckankar. But then I
have not wanted to change the path to suit my state of consciousness for a
great many years now. :-)
Jim Agricola
It seems to me that Chuck was asking a valid question of which he made no
mention of "deconstruction" . I believe it may be an honest effort to have
detractors open up and share their experiences with Eckankar and why they left
the path. If Eckankar works for you, maybe this could be a good time to
counter with why and how it works.
David Lane is a pariah because he approaches Eckankar with a critical and
academic mindset that is uncomfortable among Eckists.He has offered more than
any other researcher, a clear and concise evaluation of the life of Paul
Twitchell and found several inconsistencies during that journey. The fact
still remains that Lane's objective views remain intact and plausible despite
the inner affirmations and subjective realities of Eckankar proposed as
evidence to the contrary. If it works for you, fine, but you should consider
some of the obvious and indisputable facts about the issues of plagiarism and
the misrepresentations of Paul or Haorld as true representatives of God.
These are valid considerations when choosing the most important thing you
could ever do in your life.....to love God. I see Darwin Gross still considers
himself a channel to God in a similar and striking manner despite the fact
that he was ousted by Harold for stealing money, womanizing, and being drunk
at seminars.
Jim
Galuuk
<<< The fact
that the name is The Life and Times of
Paul Twitchell...well it might as well be The Life and Times of The Easter
Bunny. >>>
What a hoot....Len, you have no idea just how accurate what you've said
actually is.
David Lane himself, when reminded of the time he saw Rebezar Tarz, said, "Well,
I've seen the Easter Bunny too.".
Not a memorable day in detractor history....
Joey
At the end of information there is knowledge.....
At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
Len
Your post had me sit back and think, How many people have left
Eckankar in the past 35 years who have not returned? 100,000? 200,000?
I would think at least this many. I would guess it would be a factor of
10, those who have left to those who are current members.
On this newsgroup, there are currently not more than a dozen who
have been members and left and of those only a few talk about this.
Personally, having some dialogue concerning spiritual
unfoldment,
with respect, would be good. Something I would want to include myself
in.
But I think this newsgroup is more a focal point of the attack
and
defend variety, which does not, generally encourage openness, with some
exceptions.
Len
"Chuck Stockdale" <zo...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8p3jro$88s$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
gruendemann
>
> Cheryl,
> It seems to me that Chuck was asking a valid question of which he made no
> mention of "deconstruction" . I believe it may be an honest effort to have
> detractors open up and share their experiences with Eckankar and why they left
> the path. If Eckankar works for you, maybe this could be a good time to
> counter with why and how it works.
Lane's group is deconstructionist... that's what I said. Not that this is
what Chuck is, just warning him before he goes there. Clear?
As to having ex-ECKists open up, I agree this would be nice for a change.
Usually what we get is attacked. I will try to withhold judgment til we
see whether or not this turns into another bashing session of ex-eckists
trying to change ECKists minds about staying in Eckankar. <yawn>
I would love to add why Eckankar works for me, but this is a.r.e. and I
don't think I'd be interested in offering too much information about
myself here. :-)
<snip the standard David Lane follwers commercial>
TerraTrekr
>From: Chuck Stockdale zo...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com
>Date: 09/05/2000 6:20 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8p2p2k$8pe$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>
Loin gratification???
Chuck Stockdale
gruendemann <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Gruendemann wrote:
>
>Chuck,
>When I read your post I wondered..... have you found a path that is what
>you have described? I have to admit, that I cannot imagine Eckankar
>suddenly erasing the aspects of Karma and reincarnation for the belief
>that all is "goodness and light". This is a world of duality, we will
>always have this energy exchange called positive and negative. IMHO.....
Chuck replied:
Yes I have found a path in which karma as it is known in eckankar, simply
does not exist. This dreary karmic "treadmill" as portrayed in the teachings
of Eckankar, of working off the debts of past actions while trying bravely
not to incurr any new ones, is a control implant to engage the chela more
fully into the dependence on the good graces of the Godman and his
organization.
I will state this again in this post: You will never have to pay for
anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as you
forgive yourself for it. God, nor any of its subordinates has never judged
you ever. God is love and certainly does not have a court system with a
judge of the dead and his bailifs who will take the poor hapless offending
bastards into custody for acting out the "wrong" illusions.
Forgiveness of yourself is the divine act that removes from soul the guilt
and self judgement that limit the expression of the God that you are.
Eckankar can, and should remove this psychologically and physically harmful
control precept and replace it with an explanation of the true nature of God
as non-judemental, completely loving, allowing completely, and totally
supportive.
This would not be replaced with "goodness and light" as you mentioned, but
rather the more unlimited idea that each soul is the sovereign creator of
its own experience through the chronic holding of pictures in the mind.
These pictures become themes of experience but the experience can be changed
in an instant by changing the images we hold daily in our attention.
We are not chained to past actions in any way provided we can change the
pictures that created the actions. And this can happen now. If someone is
born with a birth defect or into poverty, it is not because the lords of
karma have plunged them into another lifetime against their will for past
indescretions, but they have actually attracted and entered into the
situation with their full knowledge and consent. Their agenda may not reveal
itself to the casual observer, but for reasons known only to the individual,
they choose to contrast what seem to be extreme experiences against the
unlimited life expression they knew in the house of the total.
We as a civilization have observed the spectrum of human experiences and
labeled them good, bad, good karma, bad karma, etc. God doesn't make these
distinctions but only allows expression without interference of any kind, in
this life, in the hereafter, or in future lives.
Become lawless as God is. That doesn't mean reckless, it means taking this
rope of karma away from your throat and allowing yourself to breathe. Answer
to no law, teaching, or entity, only your self and the feeling you get from
your actions. Does it resonate with who you are and want to be? If so,
continue. If not, put your attention and focus on other pictures and act
from those new pictures.
In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told to wait
at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace. Enough
control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until mom
gets back. Why can you in Eckankar not write great books on quantum physics
that will change the world, brave new screenplays like "the Matrix", culture
changing music? I tell you it is because you are afraid to get as big as you
are because it may throw up a red flag in the home office, contradict
official Eck positioning, or maybe even that you are not worthy and
qualified. Even worse you may have accepted the control implant that this
"ashcan universe" is not worth the effort anyway.
gruendemann
rather have a name first, and a sermon later, no offense meant. :-) Can't
take a sermon to a search engine.
And I happen to realize that karma wasn't invented by Eckankar or Paul
Twitchell. It is a common enough teaching/understanding to have even been
a part of the Christian doctrine. So, no.... I totally disagree that karma
is a control implant. :-D But then I also learned many other things
besides karma as an ECKist. So I guess some folks could stop there and
take it to be what the path is all about. I simply haven't found this to
be true. And neither have millions of others in religions which accept
this as truth.
Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> Chuck replied:
>
> Yes I have found a path in which karma as it is known in eckankar, simply
> does not exist. This dreary karmic "treadmill" as portrayed in the teachings
> of Eckankar, of working off the debts of past actions while trying bravely
> not to incurr any new ones, is a control implant to engage the chela more
> fully into the dependence on the good graces of the Godman and his
> organization.
>
<snip the rest>
gruendemann
something like this it was written by a disgruntled ECKist (who left
Eckankar) because the main office turned down his manuscript. Seriously.
Not to imply that this is the case with you Chuck... but I have seen this
before and had such a strong nudge to say so. He was ever so bitter
because he wasn't "deemed enlighened enough" to pen an Eckankar approved
book. Well, of course after that.... Eckankar was full of fools and idiots
in his opinion. Guess he really had rejection issues. Wondered if he ever
got published anywhere with a skin that thin. (rejection comes with the
arts!) :-)
Chuck Stockdale
gruendemann <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>So would you be interested in sharing what this new teaching is? I'd
>rather have a name first, and a sermon later, no offense meant. :-) Can't
>take a sermon to a search engine.
Chuck replied:
Dear Gruendemann,
I have made my own way and follow no organized teaching or religion. My
apologies if this seemed like a sermon.
Gruendemann wrote:
>And I happen to realize that karma wasn't invented by Eckankar or Paul
>Twitchell. It is a common enough teaching/understanding to have even been
>a part of the Christian doctrine. So, no.... I totally disagree that karma
>is a control implant. :-D But then I also learned many other things
>besides karma as an ECKist. So I guess some folks could stop there and
>take it to be what the path is all about. I simply haven't found this to
>be true. And neither have millions of others in religions which accept
>this as truth.
Chuck replied:
I agree that karma was not invented by Eckankar, but it was wholeheartedly
embraced as a main tenet. Eckankar is definately about much more than karma,
I concur that there are many positive and useful elements of the teaching.
In order to understand karma as a control implant, you must see it in
context with the other control factors; Kal forces, negative entities,
judges of the dead, etc. Combined, these ideas create a situation where you
are led to believe that you already carry a karmic burden which you can't
remember, that you need to burn off to be free and you need the help of the
master to do it.
With that tenet accepted, the physical universe is depicted as an ashcan
under the rule of the Kal. This causes apathy and withdrawal from the
physical, then a firmer anchoring to the more spiritually "worthwhile" Eck
teachings. Then you are told that it is the only true path and you can never
leave unless you want to be quite lost and have to someday climb slowly back
up the ladder. This is another anchor point driving the student ever deeper
and making his dependency greater.
What I am saying is that you are following a path that has much truth mixed
with intentional or less informed control factors to lock students firmly
into the teaching.
Chuck Stockdale
gruendemann <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Okay, at the risk of seeming cynical here.... the last time I saw
>something like this it was written by a disgruntled ECKist (who left
>Eckankar) because the main office turned down his manuscript. Seriously.
>Not to imply that this is the case with you Chuck... but I have seen this
>before and had such a strong nudge to say so. He was ever so bitter
>because he wasn't "deemed enlighened enough" to pen an Eckankar approved
>book. Well, of course after that.... Eckankar was full of fools and idiots
>in his opinion. Guess he really had rejection issues. Wondered if he ever
>got published anywhere with a skin that thin. (rejection comes with the
>arts!) :-)
>
Chuck replied:
I have never attempted to write a book about anything. What I was saying is
that longtime eckists should be able to provide to the world new fresh
insights, books, scientific information and other materials which would help
to advance the understanding of the whole.
Why would you even be concerned with submitting a manuscript to the home
office? There has been very little original material written within Eckankar
since I left in 1986. Harold has written general anecdotal stuff. I have not
seen a continuation of the likes of what Paul Twitchell was writing at all.
The narrow band of expression within which you must operate creatively as an
Eckist who would want to produce writings or taped lectures etc., makes it
impossible to let yourself really be free to do this.
I have seen the stuff that Twitchell copied but this to me, doesn't explain
the vast amount of writings that he produced. I didn't use the child in the
day care center analogy to insult Eckists, but rather to encourage a hard
look at what I saw to be control factors that keep Eckists from ever
producing mainstream creative works.
Why not take the leadership to task on this? Most all who have left Eckankar
can see this quite plainly. I think that the potential of Eckankar without
the control stuff would, in the long run go much further and be of greater
value to the world than it is presently. Eckankar appears to provide
great spiritual insight tempered by the limitations of incongruent and
disharmonious control elements.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Galuuk
>>> You will never have to pay for
anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as you
forgive yourself for it. >>>
Sounds like some washed over Christianity with a New Age "feel good" mask.
Chuck, just as in the real world of physical life, there are immutable laws of
spirit. As Isaac Newton observed...
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
Emotional and mental acts create an effect. The creator of those acts will
reap the effect of their fallout----good, bad, or indifferent.
Any notion to the contrary is folly.
It's sort of like saying "I'm going to jump off that 10 story building and be
free of the drudgery of gravity."
You'll be free from gravity all right....for about 3 or 4 seconds. Then the
immutable laws of life will come calling.
Some payment plans have a longer lifespan....but with the accrued interest not
showing up long till long after the web of vanity's assuredness washes free.
Galuuk
<<< The narrow band of expression within which you must operate
creatively as an
Eckist who would want to produce writings or taped lectures etc., makes it
impossible to let yourself really be free to do this. >>>
A completely and totally false assertion.
I could write a book on just how untrue Chuck's statement is....but I would
venture that it would fall on deaf ears.
I will, however, reserve judgement and continue to read Chuck's words in an
attempt to see if my first impression is valid or not. I've been known to be
wrong.
gruendemann
You assume that ECKists are not producing in any filelds, creative works
of imprt. That really is a shame, as it looked for a bit as though it
might be interesting communicating with you. :-/ Eckists simply don't tie
their religion to their world like a flag. We're active in all fields and
areas but to stick the ECK label on what we do, would be too far removed
from what practicing Eckankar means to so many Eckists. Seriously.
My husband does have a fish on his car trunk tho! It says: 'n Chips :-)
As for the so called "control stuff".... not everyone sees it the way you
do. I happen to know from personal experience that most people don't join
a given path with the intent of turning it into something it wasn't in the
first place. Well, with the exception of Martin Luther of couse... but
that wasn't his initial intent. And what did he end up with, a better
Catholic Church?! :-)
Chuck Stockdale
gal...@aol.com (Galuuk) wrote:
>Chuck writes.....
>
> >>> You will never have to pay for
>anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as you
>forgive yourself for it. >>>
>
>
>Sounds like some washed over Christianity with a New Age "feel good" mask.
>
>Chuck, just as in the real world of physical life, there are immutable laws
of
>spirit. As Isaac Newton observed...
>
> "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
>
>Emotional and mental acts create an effect. The creator of those acts will
>reap the effect of their fallout----good, bad, or indifferent.
>
>Any notion to the contrary is folly.
>
>It's sort of like saying "I'm going to jump off that 10 story building and
be
>free of the drudgery of gravity."
>
>You'll be free from gravity all right....for about 3 or 4 seconds. Then
the
>immutable laws of life will come calling.
>
>Some payment plans have a longer lifespan....but with the accrued interest
not
>showing up long till long after the web of vanity's assuredness washes
free.
>
>
>
>Joey
Chuck replied:
Joey,
You have stated here your agreement with the creative mechanisms of life and
so it is unto you. I tell you there are other options but you can not accept
that this could be true. You have given your consent to the limitations of
karma to be operational in your life. Your declaration of it's immutability
is an indication of the extent to which you have accepted and embraced it.
I have absolutely nothing to gain by trying to convince you, but you have
much to gain if you can consent instead to more unlimited options beyond
cause and effect to become operational in your experience.
The effects of an action coming to revisit you long after the web of
vanity's assurance has washed away, would cause nothing but disorientation
and confusion even at the soul level.
After the smoke is cleared and the banners have touched the ground, many of
these concepts such as karma and Kal will be traced to their sources and
there will be an end to the futile attempt to assign their authorship to a
God of love.
You're right, it does feel very good when the terrible burden of this
creation of man called karma is cast off of your shoulders. There is nothing
wrong with feeling good and this dreary concept of the great cosmic
scorekeeper does not make anyone feel good, only anxious.
Chuck Stockdale
gal...@aol.com (Galuuk) wrote:
>Chuck writes.....
>
> <<< The narrow band of expression within which you must operate
>creatively as an
>Eckist who would want to produce writings or taped lectures etc., makes it
>impossible to let yourself really be free to do this. >>>
>
Joey replied:
>A completely and totally false assertion.
>
>I could write a book on just how untrue Chuck's statement is....but I would
>venture that it would fall on deaf ears.
>
>I will, however, reserve judgement and continue to read Chuck's words in an
>attempt to see if my first impression is valid or not. I've been known to
be
>wrong.
>
>
>Joey
Chuck replied:
I have not seen anything creatively which has been published, showing up at
Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com or Blockbuster music by anyone in Eckankar except
the leadership. Nothing in the mainstream at all. Many Eckists here are
defensive and see me as their enemy, this is not true. You are my friends
and my wish is to see you "think outside of the box" even within Eckankar.
I have seen very little mention of the cosmology of the vibratory planes of
existence which are mentioned in the Eck writings any where else. I know
from my own experience that they exist quite as they are described in Eck,
with the exception that I have never seen a Kal like entity anywhere in my
inner journeys. I suspect that this was a metaphoric creation of Paul
Twitchell to try to reconcile and explain the dynamics of our human
expression.
Most of teachings of the world offer vague references to the cosmic
infrastructure of the inner worlds, but don't go very far. Many paths
portray only the physical world, and then the formless spiritual realm
beyond the physical. You know, as do I, that there is much more to the
structure of the many mansions of the fathers house than this simple
offering.
Can you help science, quantum physics, the world in general as an Eckist, to
delve into these inner worlds inside each of us and merge science with the
expression of spirit at this point in our history? I feel that Eckists as a
body of spiritual scientists have much to offer in this regard, but it will
never manifest under the current "top down" hierarchy of Eckankar where any
thing too far to the left or the right of official dogma is not encouraged
and supported.
I stopped playing rock music at one point during my membership in Eckankar
because the writings portrayed it as the "jungle like" primitive rythms of
the Kal forces. This actually went against my inner longings, but these were
suppressed for the supposed greater good of performing so called "positive"
lighter music. I attempted to fit my creativity into the small funnel which
it must pass through to emerge within the Eck culture by writing and
performing music at Eck seminars. I was always looking for the nod and
approval of Eckists and the home office that would indicate that I was
within the intended bounds of the culture of Eckankar.
I can't express the excitement and the freedom of getting back to my inner
longings and deciding to express any way I saw fit. Eckists as a body must
critically look at and if necessary, challenge some of the official
positions of Eck dogma. I say this out of love for you because I believe it
is possible to utilize the benefits of Eckankar while at the same time
divesting yourselves of the creatively limiting subtle control factors
within the teaching.
Sincerely,
Chuck
gruendemann
overblown ego trip of a religion. ECKists work in all fields in all areas
of life. Eckankar is no there to change the world in this manner Chuck. If
this is what you are looking for then you were wise to leave the
teachings. Plain and simple. :-)
Chuck Stockdale
>Chuck,
>You assume that ECKists are not producing in any filelds, creative works
>of imprt. That really is a shame, as it looked for a bit as though it
>might be interesting communicating with you. :-/ Eckists simply don't tie
>their religion to their world like a flag. We're active in all fields and
>areas but to stick the ECK label on what we do, would be too far removed
>from what practicing Eckankar means to so many Eckists. Seriously.
>
>My husband does have a fish on his car trunk tho! It says: 'n Chips :-)
>
>As for the so called "control stuff".... not everyone sees it the way you
>do. I happen to know from personal experience that most people don't join
>a given path with the intent of turning it into something it wasn't in the
>first place. Well, with the exception of Martin Luther of couse... but
>that wasn't his initial intent. And what did he end up with, a better
>Catholic Church?! :-)
Chuck repied:
Thank you for your civil and thoughtful reply. A quote from the book " the
Far Country" is applicable here:" The world presents different appearances
according as our states of consciousness differ. What man sees when he is
identified with a state, cannot be seen when he is no longer fused with it.
By state is meant all that man believes and consents to as true. No idea
presented to the mind can realize itself unless Soul accepts it" (page 224).
It appears that it is very difficult maybe impossible to see the control
aspects within Eckankar when you are identified with the concepts of the
official "state of consciousness of the Eck body". People who have left
Eckankar are at a different state of consciousness, but I assure you it is
not lower, only different.
From my current vantage point, it appears that the massive creativity and
positive inertia that Paul Twitchell brought to the world, waned when he
left the physical arena. His book "the Far Country", advanced concepts of
quantum physics in 1970, many years before the significance of this science
would be understood and embraced.
I have not seen in my estimation, a continuation of this in the works of any
that followed him. If any people within Eckankar have made significant
discoveries in their Soul travel experiences, why not break the
communication deadening, controlling, "law of silence" and bring information
of value to the world?
I think the small amount of plagiarism that was uncovered in the writings of
Twitchell, does little to explain the absolutely astonishing body of work
that he produced.
I hope that many of you within Eck will reach your creative potentials and
add to this body of knowledge for the world to see. It doesn't appear that
this will happen within the current structure of this religion. But anything
can change and go in new directions if enough individuals desire to effect
this outcome.
Do not be afraid. Cast off all rules, considerations and limitations.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Ken
TerraTrekr <terra...@aol.com> wrote ...
>
> Loin gratification???
Sure. T-bone gratification is great too although my favorite is NY
strip steaks. Can't beat 'em cooked on a charcoal grill.
--
Ken
It is truly said "You can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much."
- Denis Howe
Rainforest
I feel that I can safely say that we all have felt like the Last ECKist
in times past and from time to time. That description to me is the
witnessing of the changes, The Wind of Change if you may. Paulji meant
that the Metaphysics of ECKANKAR should be learned as a basic foundation
for new discovery(s) not as a main all consuming spiritual diet.
Once the Metaphysics is learned and lived, it then becomes part of our
ECK Flow, but certainly not forgotten, which gives the freedom of
expression necessary to discover new levels of consciousness. In the
last analysis, initiation level(s) is a form of organizing said levels,
but means nothing as far as inner spiritual growth is concerned.
In ECK,
George
gruendemann
inner explorations? Seriously. What force of beingness has come through
you to set the world on its heels excitedly to say POW!
As to what is happening in Eckankar, as you are not an active member, it
would be difficult to stand back and judge the teachings from the level of
what's being published for the general public. The whole teaching has
shifted in many ways since 1986, as the world in general has. The
teachings of Eckankar have never been focused strictly in the published
works.... the gist of the teachings is within. Perhaps this is why you
have not seen another book such as the Far Country.... Paul was setting
the stage for the Eckankar of today.
If you truly are involved in what Paul was sharing with ECKists then you
might be interested in the reality of the Temple of ECK in Chanhassen, and
the complex on the grounds which are also open to the public for their use
as well. There are also Temples going up in other parts of the world. One
in Africa, one in Canada, one in Connecticut and several other states have
Temples in the workings. A shift in priorities for now.
Our books are sold in bookstores everywhere and we have major seminars
across the globe. Sri Harold's talks are broadcast across the internet for
people to log on during the major seminars to hear his talks.
Yep, lots of changes and progress over the years. And oddly enough much of
the work being done is in line with the mission as shared by Paul himself
through his tapes. :-)
Chuck Stockdale
>As stated before Chuck, Members of Eckankar are not interested in an
>overblown ego trip of a religion. ECKists work in all fields in all areas
>of life. Eckankar is no there to change the world in this manner Chuck. If
>this is what you are looking for then you were wise to leave the
>teachings. Plain and simple. :-)
Chuck responded,
I know the decision to leave Eckankar was for me, the right choice.
I recognize that Eckists live and work within society in their various
occupations, etc., but what I was saying is that their influence is
negligible in a creative tangible way. One could say that the world is
influenced invisibly by Eckists, but I was speaking of quantifiable,
measurable literary or other contributions.
You have stated what I think is a very present concept within Eckankar, that
the world is not worth changing because it is within a negative universe
which is under the jurisdiction of the Kal forces. As such, Eckists figure
that they will endure, be silent channels, and then escape forever, in a
blaze of light from their corporal prisons.
I do not see the physical world as a prison or an ashcan since leaving
Eckankar. I see it as an extention of my own self, my own universal body. It
is a platform to express the creative Gods that we are, a place for God, as
soul, to experience its conceptual creations. This universe is not under the
control or jurisdiction of any negative force or entity. It is time that we
dispense with such superstitions and enjoy the freedom such liberation
brings.
The world is worth changing because the world is you. Every time a limited
idea is replaced by a less limited concept, the human condition is quickened
and the playing field becomes more civil, and enjoyable. If Martin Luther
and many other idea changing leaders had resigned themselves to the futility
of changing the world, then racism would still be accepted and blacks even
within Eckankar would be having a much less enjoyable time here.
We must recognize ideas which limit, separate, divide and restrict our human
expression and replace them with more expanded concepts. This is worth doing
for the benefit of my children alone, not to mention the benefit of all
souls in human expression.
Sincerely;
Chuck
Galuuk
<<< I have absolutely nothing to gain by trying to convince you, but you
have
much to gain if you can consent instead to more unlimited options beyond
cause and effect to become operational in your experience.
The effects of an action coming to revisit you long after the web of
vanity's assurance has washed away, would cause nothing but disorientation
and confusion even at the soul level. >>>
Chuck, I think you may have misinterpreted the core of my message. First of
all, I firmly believe(know) that the effects of karma can be transcended,
HOWEVER while existing on this stage, the effects of karma are as real as a
spring breeze....or as in your face as an F-5 tornado. The transcendence can
even be experienced for a few brief moments each day if one desires to do so.
But your suggestion that the immutable laws of physics and spirit don't exist
shows a remarkable lack of awareness.
Galuuk
<<< I have not seen anything creatively which has been published, showing
up at
Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com or Blockbuster music by anyone in Eckankar except
the leadership. Nothing in the mainstream at all. >>>
Just because it doesn't have an Eckankar label on it, doesn't mean it was't
spawned in the warm, inviting waters of the Ocean of Love and Mercy.
I have to chuckle at your notion....
I'm currently involved with the final production and distribution of a product
that will be mainstream(millions) of copies.
It's being embraced by a remarkable cross section of America.
Chuck, you remind me a little of the movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.
Rober Redford says to Paul Newman, "you keep on thinking Butch, that's what you
do best"
Well Chuck, you keep talking, that's what you do best.
You are entertaining, I'll give that to you.
arel...@home.com
Galuuk wrote:
>
> Chuck writes.....
>
> >>> You will never have to pay for
> anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as you
> forgive yourself for it. >>>
>
> Sounds like some washed over Christianity with a New Age "feel good" mask.
>
> Chuck, just as in the real world of physical life, there are immutable laws of
> spirit. As Isaac Newton observed...
>
> "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
>
> Emotional and mental acts create an effect. The creator of those acts will
> reap the effect of their fallout----good, bad, or indifferent.
Hey it sounds like you are drunk on dogma. <g>
>
> Any notion to the contrary is folly.
I see Harold's authoritarian tone has rubbed off on you.
Lurk
arel...@home.com
Rich wrote:
>
> Chuck Stockdale wrote:
>
> > Yes I have found a path in which karma as it is known in eckankar, simply
> > does not exist. This dreary karmic "treadmill" as portrayed in the teachings
> > of Eckankar, of working off the debts of past actions while trying bravely
> > not to incurr any new ones, is a control implant to engage the chela more
> > fully into the dependence on the good graces of the Godman and his
> > organization.
>
> "dreary karmic "treadmill""? :-D It always amazes me how people can draw
> such different conclusions from the same information.<G> Did you read
> Doug's posts about negative thoughts? Perhaps you did too much of that
> while in Eckankar?
>
> I see learning to control the balancing of opposites in duality not as
> controlling mechanism to create dependance, but as the _freeing agent_
> to enable one to stand on their own, outside of any organization,
> philosophy or religious belief system, and simply accept the
> responsibility of your creations. Isn't it ignorance that binds?
> Gaining a Knowingness about duality facilitates moving out of it into
> Self-Realization.
Rich, you must have been a highly intelligent person in a past life
where you used such intelligence to abuse other. That is the only
explanation I can come up with to explain your ignorant response above. <lol>
Lurk
P.S. That was a Karma joke.
>
> > I will state this again in this post: You will never have to pay for
> > anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as you
> > forgive yourself for it.
>
> Tell that to the courts, the government..:-) They have a way of
> enforcing their will that you pay for what you do.
>
> > God, nor any of its subordinates has never judged
> > you ever. God is love and certainly does not have a court system with a
> > judge of the dead and his bailifs who will take the poor hapless offending
> > bastards into custody for acting out the "wrong" illusions.
> >
> > Forgiveness of yourself is the divine act that removes from soul the guilt
> > and self judgement that limit the expression of the God that you are.
> > Eckankar can, and should remove this psychologically and physically harmful
> > control precept and replace it with an explanation of the true nature of God
> > as non-judemental, completely loving, allowing completely, and totally
> > supportive.
>
> That's the way I have always seen It(Sugmad) through what I was taught
> in Eckankar. Seems that you are confusing It, with Souls("subordinates"
> as you put it) who have assumed the role of powerful dualistic deities.
>
>
> > This would not be replaced with "goodness and light" as you mentioned, but
> > rather the more unlimited idea that each soul is the sovereign creator of
> > its own experience through the chronic holding of pictures in the mind.
> > These pictures become themes of experience but the experience can be changed
> > in an instant by changing the images we hold daily in our attention.
> >
> > We are not chained to past actions in any way provided we can change the
> > pictures that created the actions. And this can happen now. If someone is
> > born with a birth defect or into poverty, it is not because the lords of
> > karma have plunged them into another lifetime against their will for past
> > indescretions, but they have actually attracted and entered into the
> > situation with their full knowledge and consent. Their agenda may not reveal
> > itself to the casual observer, but for reasons known only to the individual,
> > they choose to contrast what seem to be extreme experiences against the
> > unlimited life expression they knew in the house of the total.
> >
> > We as a civilization have observed the spectrum of human experiences and
> > labeled them good, bad, good karma, bad karma, etc. God doesn't make these
> > distinctions but only allows expression without interference of any kind, in
> > this life, in the hereafter, or in future lives.
> >
> > Become lawless as God is. That doesn't mean reckless, it means taking this
> > rope of karma away from your throat and allowing yourself to breathe. Answer
> > to no law, teaching, or entity, only your self and the feeling you get from
> > your actions. Does it resonate with who you are and want to be? If so,
> > continue. If not, put your attention and focus on other pictures and act
> > from those new pictures.
>
> I generally agree with all this. Soul is free and God has no
> attributes. But your premise only holds true from there. You created a
> body, emotions and mind that _are_ subject to duality, yes? Illusionary
> as they may be, hot and cold, positive and negative, male and female,
> close and far, young and old, black and white all exist in these. For
> every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why do you have a
> such an aversion to that that you negate it's existance Chuck? Why take
> such a negative view of these realities and the experiences that you
> create therein? Certainly we can learn to not be controlled by fear and
> know that we create these realities. What you propose(no duality) would
> entail no bodies... :-O
>
> > In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told to wait
> > at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace. Enough
> > control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until mom
> > gets back.
>
> I assume that you are speaking about your own experience? Who treated
> you that way? The LEM? Or was it how you interpreted what you read
> somewhere?
This is the stock answer to mostly all criticism of eckankar and it
doctrines. The universal turn it around on the critic response and frame
all criticism as a matter of their interpretation. The height of
arrogance? The building blocks of insolationism?
There is a big difference there. I have always been given
> free reign by the Eckankar masters in my spiritual growth. Even within
> the organization I have been quite amazed at the latitude I have been
> allowed when I was out of balance or lacking in self-discipline.
>
> > Why can you in Eckankar not write great books on quantum physics
> > that will change the world, brave new screenplays like "the Matrix", culture
> > changing music?
>
> Like I mentioned in another post, you have been out of touch for a long
> time Chuck. Eckists are doing these very things. Eckists have directed
> feature films with major stars, are producing major films, winning the
> Billboard Song Writing Contest, working on the cutting edge in
> electronic media storage, a doctor at Mayo Clinic, ect. These are just
> a few that I personally know off the top of my head.
>
> > I tell you it is because you are afraid to get as big as you
> > are because it may throw up a red flag in the home office, contradict
> > official Eck positioning, or maybe even that you are not worthy and
> > qualified. Even worse you may have accepted the control implant that this
> > "ashcan universe" is not worth the effort anyway.
>
> Chuck, this is beginning to feel like an attack on Eckists. What
> happened to "My purpose is not detraction or deconstruction"? I know...
> it's easy to fall into that mode here in A.R.E. Not to worry... happens
> to the best of us.<G>
>
> Nevertheless, what made you think that Eckists would have do these
> things under the auspicious of Eckankar? Eckankar is a spiritual
> organization and has not used the celebrity of any of it's members to
> promote the path. Nor do I think it will be backing any scientific
> research, feature films or pop music. Eckankar's policy, even when you
> were a member, was to not interfere with the private lives of it
> members.
>
> --
> o
> |
> ~/|
> _/ |\
> / | \
> -/ | \
> _ /____|___\_
> (___________/
> Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chuck Stockdale
Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>Chuck Stockdale wrote:
>
>> Yes I have found a path in which karma as it is known in eckankar, simply
>> does not exist. This dreary karmic "treadmill" as portrayed in the
teachings
>> of Eckankar, of working off the debts of past actions while trying
bravely
>> not to incurr any new ones, is a control implant to engage the chela more
>> fully into the dependence on the good graces of the Godman and his
>> organization.
Rich wrote:
>"dreary karmic "treadmill""? :-D It always amazes me how people can draw
>such different conclusions from the same information.<G> Did you read
>Doug's posts about negative thoughts? Perhaps you did too much of that
>while in Eckankar?
>
>I see learning to control the balancing of opposites in duality not as
>controlling mechanism to create dependance, but as the _freeing agent_
>to enable one to stand on their own, outside of any organization,
>philosophy or religious belief system, and simply accept the
>responsibility of your creations. Isn't it ignorance that binds?
>Gaining a Knowingness about duality facilitates moving out of it into
>Self-Realization.
>
Chuck responded:
Rich, in my fourteen years in Eckankar I had plenty of time to grasp fully
and completely what was being taught. I was, I believe, quite balanced
within the works.
There is nothing freeing about teaching the "so called" reality of the law
of karma. It can be very difficult to understand the subtlety of this
control factor after you have accepted and emraced it as reality and a main
tenet of your religion over a long period of time.
NOW, is the pivotal point of eternity. This moment is all there is. The Eck
or spirit is flowing through your worldview like playdough coming out of a
playdough shaper and this energy is powering, electrically, the seemingly
objective realty that you are experiencing. The modus operandi of this
process is the abilty we have to hold a picture or series of pictures in our
attention. The "outerness" of the physical world is an utter and complete
illusion. All situations, people, objects, circumstances, and conditions are
nothing but interpretations of electrical impulses triggered by imaginary
action in this projected universe of thought that is continuously flowing
projector like, through the matrix of your worldview.
You are not DOING anything to anyone. There is naught but you, surrounded by
your illusory creations. These creations, including your body and the world
that seemingly surrounds you, exist as illusory thought interactions for the
purpose of assisting you in understanding, defining, and expressing who and
what you are as God. You cannot most likely accept at this point anyway,
that you are indeed God observing and interacting in, conceptual universes
and experiences that were created by yourself in thought. It was all created
at one time, everything, every illusory experience, everything you are and
can possibly become, exists within you right now, and you are choosing to
examine portions of it minutely in a time sequence that you consider to be
your lifetime.
If you are sitting in a prison in Iraq for example, and you were captured as
a prisoner of war from the Gulf conflict, you could assess that the
situation was the result of your past karmic activity, joining the military,
thoughts of fighting and conflict readiness that go with the training,
bravery, patriotism, etc. Your situation would definately be the result of
these recurring pictures that are associated with these concepts. But the
CRUCIAL thing to understand, is that you are free this moment, to change the
pictures you are holding in your attention NOW in this pivotal point of
eternity. If you were to resign yourself to the inevitability of karma,
believing that you are somehow bound to, or paying off debts from the past,
you may never leave the prison. If you know, believe, and understand that
NOW can be changed forever in the twinkling of an eye by placing attention
only on the pictures that reflect what it is that you desire to be your
experience, without regard for any past pictures or "so called" actions,
then your situation could change that quickly.
In other words the prisoner, through the holding of the new pictures in his
attention, and his new karma-free understanding of life, would effect a
completely different outcome for himself. The president may negotiate the
release of all prisoners of war and you could be on a plane the next day
back to the United States. Thats how powerful you are. All of the conditions
surrounding your release are part and parcel of your understanding,
intention, belief and acceptance about what is true and possible for
yourself.
The alternate outcome of you remaining in prison for the rest of your life
is merely another probability system simultaneously existing, which you have
removed from your attention and which, as such, is not your current
illusory drama. All possible versions of you and your experience, all your
lifetimes, all your dramas have already been created with their own
accompanying pasts, and futures, and you merely place them in your attention
to activate them in your NOW, the fulcrum of life, and look at them in a
sequence called time. You are much freer than you have been told or have
been led to believe.
Even within Christianity, Jesus said; "I and the father are one, and ye are
my brethren". In other words Jesus=God, and you=Jesus, therefore you=God.
I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any organized religion. I do accept
what this great teacher and many others have stated, I am God, and as a
complete individual likeness of itself (soul), I am experiencing maya or
illusion of my own creation and choice in order that I may understand myself
as God more fully and completely.
Do not believe and accept the picture that your senses are delivering to you
because I tell you you have forgotten since your arrival here in the
physical, that you created it all as an interactive virtual illusion. Thats
how powerful you are. You should completely remember and understand this
from your soul travel experiences, but your experiences inwardly and
outwardly have been shaped, influenced, skewed, and manipulated to fit into
the "tight jacket" understanding of life as depicted in Eckankar. I say this
not as an attack on Eckankar as it might seem, but a desire to help you
recognize and be free of some of what I consider to be the harmful,
restrictive and controlloing aspects of the religion. I know that you will
probably never leave Eckankar, and it doesn't matter to me anyway if you do
or don't. The idea that you may be under the grip of these control factors
as I once was, compels me to post a few words in this NG . Possibly, you
will be able to take the beneficial aspects which it has to offer and wake
up to the recognition of restrictive and controlling elements which have
been interwoven with great truths.
>> I will state this again in this post: You will never have to pay for
>> anything you have ever thought or done, in this or any life, as long as
you
>> forgive yourself for it.
>
>Tell that to the courts, the government..:-) They have a way of
>enforcing their will that you pay for what you do.
>
>
>> God, nor any of its subordinates has never judged
>> you ever. God is love and certainly does not have a court system with a
>> judge of the dead and his bailifs who will take the poor hapless
offending
>> bastards into custody for acting out the "wrong" illusions.
>>
>> Forgiveness of yourself is the divine act that removes from soul the
guilt
>> and self judgement that limit the expression of the God that you are.
>> Eckankar can, and should remove this psychologically and physically
harmful
>> control precept and replace it with an explanation of the true nature of
God
>> as non-judemental, completely loving, allowing completely, and totally
>> supportive
Rich wrote:
>That's the way I have always seen It(Sugmad) through what I was taught
>in Eckankar. Seems that you are confusing It, with Souls("subordinates"
>as you put it) who have assumed the role of powerful dualistic deities.
>
Chuck reponded:
I will say once again that the model of life as laid out in Eckankar which
shows a lower world force such as Kal who amuses himself by tempting,
confusing, waylaying and opposing souls efforts to understand its divinity,
is a crude and vulgar model. It is a cartoon like portrayal which has
absolutely no basis in fact. Have you ever personally seen the negative
genious manifested in your soul travel experiences? Has anyone that you know
personally experienced this? The "law of silence" probably forbids you to
discuss such things with higher initiates as it did me when I was in
Eckankar. This silences encourages lack of dialogue, comparison and
objective evaluation of inner experiences and it is actually another control
factor within any religion including Eckankar. The higher you go, the less
you can speak openly of your experiences. This is a subtle factor within the
works which discourages true communication, objectivity and unbiased
evaluation of your experiences within Eckankar.
Do not be afraid to speak of your most intimate experiences to others and
ask honest and probing questions about their experiences as well. They do
not seek to eliminate and destroy your realizations as agents of the Kal as
you have been taught throughout the writings, speeches, and discourses of
Eckankar.
Rich wrote:
>I generally agree with all this. Soul is free and God has no
>attributes. But your premise only holds true from there. You created a
>body, emotions and mind that _are_ subject to duality, yes? Illusionary
>as they may be, hot and cold, positive and negative, male and female,
>close and far, young and old, black and white all exist in these. For
>every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why do you have a
>such an aversion to that that you negate it's existance Chuck? Why take
>such a negative view of these realities and the experiences that you
>create therein? Certainly we can learn to not be controlled by fear and
>know that we create these realities. What you propose(no duality) would
>entail no bodies... :-O
>
Chuck responded:
I concur that we have indeed created our own bodies, emotional, physical,
mental, or otherwise. Your physical body which is to all "appearances"
subject to gravity, when elevated to a height above the earth of around 160
miles, ceases to be affected by gravity or so called laws of cause and
effect. The physically invisible worlds and universes inside you which give
rise to the existence and maintenance of the ongoing illusion of what you
consider to be your body, are quite outside the limitations of gravity,
time, and or cause and effect as we have come to understand it. Persons who
have accomplished levitation, have merely temporarily broken their covenant
or assumptive agreement with these supposedly immutable laws.
I don't refute the existence of laws of physics, but I tell you that these
laws are based on incomplete, obselete, and outdated models of reality and
are not the absolute laws we consider them to be.
>> In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told to
wait
>> at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace.
Enough
>> control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until mom
>> gets back.
>
>I assume that you are speaking about your own experience? Who treated
>you that way? The LEM? Or was it how you interpreted what you read
>somewhere? There is a big difference there. I have always been given
>free reign by the Eckankar masters in my spiritual growth. Even within
>the organization I have been quite amazed at the latitude I have been
>allowed when I was out of balance or lacking in self-discipline.
>
>
>> Why can you in Eckankar not write great books on quantum physics
>> that will change the world, brave new screenplays like "the Matrix",
culture
>> changing music?
>
>Like I mentioned in another post, you have been out of touch for a long
>time Chuck. Eckists are doing these very things. Eckists have directed
>feature films with major stars, are producing major films, winning the
>Billboard Song Writing Contest, working on the cutting edge in
>electronic media storage, a doctor at Mayo Clinic, ect. These are just
>a few that I personally know off the top of my head.
>
>
>> I tell you it is because you are afraid to get as big as you
>> are because it may throw up a red flag in the home office, contradict
>> official Eck positioning, or maybe even that you are not worthy and
>> qualified. Even worse you may have accepted the control implant that this
>> "ashcan universe" is not worth the effort anyway
Rich wrote:
>Chuck, this is beginning to feel like an attack on Eckists. What
>happened to "My purpose is not detraction or deconstruction"? I know...
>it's easy to fall into that mode here in A.R.E. Not to worry... happens
>to the best of us.<G>
Chuck replied:
Detraction and deconstruction are not my objectives, nor is attacking
Eckists. I have surfaced around 30 days ago to start posting on this NG
after 15 years of being out of Eckankar. This kind of relation was not
possible until now. This is probably some of my last posts on this NG as I
feel that I've pretty much said everything that I wanted to say. You are my
dear brothers and what I have written is out of love and concern for your
freedom and well being.
>Nevertheless, what made you think that Eckists would have do these
>things under the auspicious of Eckankar? Eckankar is a spiritual
>organization and has not used the celebrity of any of it's members to
>promote the path. Nor do I think it will be backing any scientific
>research, feature films or pop music. Eckankar's policy, even when you
>were a member, was to not interfere with the private lives of it
>members.
>
Chuck responded:
My point was, don't sit around in a spiritual circle with your hands folded
waiting for the next top-down dogma to be issued from those you consider to
be higher or more unfolded than yourself. Break out, question authority,
stretch out to your full expression, drop all fears and restrictive
considerations like the hot coals that they are, amswer to no one but your
SELF. If we want to be as God is, the divinity that we really are, we must
remove every limited concept that we have ever accepted about who and what
we are, and what life is. These must be lovingly and gradually exchanged for
more expanded and unlimited understandings of the science of God.
All concepts such as karma, satan(Kal), and anything else that puts as in a
child/parent relationship with God can be replaced with the more unlimited
understandings that God is lawless and limitless and WE are God. WE know
what we are doing here. We have forgotten willingly as is necessary to
accept the illusory limitied expression of time and space, but can expand
into the larger memory beyond our forgetfulness at any time.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Chuck Stockdale
"dove" <do...@loveoneanother.com> wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>WARNING!
>
>THIS IS A NASTY ANTI-ECK MESSAGE THAT WILL CAUSE TRUE BELIEVERS MUCH PAIN.
>
>ECKISTS KEEP OUT!
>
>This message is for Chuck and the other detractors only, so Eckists, don't
>complain about what an evil persecutor I am of your religious freedom after
you
>read it in spite of my warning.
>
>>I think the small amount of plagiarism that was uncovered in the writings
of
>>Twitchell, does little to explain the absolutely astonishing body of work
>>that he produced.
>
>Have you read any of it recently? I did (The Shariyat Ki Sugmad), and it
is
>obvious that much of it is an elaborate fabrication created by a delusional
>SPIRITUAL-fiction writer.
>
>In retrospect, I'm surprised that anyone ever believed a word of it.
>
>But when I was constantly bombarded with Eckists saying: "It's the ultimate
truth!
>Twitchell was God on earth!", like the emperor who was given a set of
invisible
>clothes by the dishonest tallors, it all seemed so mystical and profound.
Even
>then, much of it made absolutely no sense, but I thought I was at fault for
this.
>
>Once the power of suggestion wore off, and I found out that Twitchell was a
liar,
>plagiarist and thief of intellectual property,
>
>http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult/chapters/tmsma4.html (plaigiarist,
thief of
>intellectual property)
>http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult (liar)
>http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/guru3.htm (liar, liar!)
>
>so did the illusion that his books made any sense as a coherent body of
>theological work, when considered as a whole. The stuff he borrowed from
other
>religions made sense, but it wasn't his material. He had creative talent,
but
>that was it, and used it to create a mixture of truth and the most absurd
>religious lies I have ever encountered.
Chuck responded:
Dove:
I have always thought of the writings of Eckankar as fragmented and not
really cohesive, just fascinating. But I did at one time, accept them as the
highest sources on earth in spite of their imperfections.
I believe that Twitchell was able to penetrate his own inner universes and
had the abilty to teach others to do the same. I too, have had experiences
in some of these more subtle inner universes that are mentioned in the
writings. I never saw all that negative stuff like Kal and such and
suspected that these were control based creations to keep "the five passions
of the mind" from running rampant in his students. I didn't realize until
later and possibly neither did Twitchell, that these concepts could create
much physical and emotional harm, anxiety, and anguish in the lives of
students.
Perhaps we will never get Eckists to talk of their experiences except in the
official sanctioned view of Eckankar especially higher initiates and long
time members. They have been told that some sort of trick of the negative
genious, Kal, (who amuses himself by sticking his foot out in the spiritual
isles of life and tripping poor confused seekers), will make them fall to
the bottom of the spiritual ladder lest they seriously consider the words of
those outside of Eckankar. The law of silence does just what it was intended
to do, silence people. I speak from extensive experience, for I was of that
mind when in Eckankar.
On the other hand Dove, something unusual happened when in Eck and I feel
the need to identify those elements that Twitchell wrote about that actually
worked. Where did he get them from? It is not enough to prove plagiarism.
The enigma of Eckankar, its acceptance by so many people, and what works
within it, deserve to be examined.
>He was so confused that he labeled meditation a grossly inferior spiritual
>technique while teaching his followers to repeat the mantra "Aum" silently
while
>looking at their third eye, which is a yoga meditation technique!
>
>When enough serious, academically-based theologians like Prof. David Lane
(not the
>new age amateurs that write liner notes for Eckankar books), get a hold of
his
>stuff, Twitchell will go down in religious history as the biggest joke
there ever
>was, and Eckankar will be holding seminars in abandoned warehouses.
>
>Example of coming attractions:
>
>"Lane's research into the origins of Paul Twitchell has turned up some of
the most
>stunning evidence of prevarication (lying) and plagiarism by a so-called
spiritual
>master ever seen." -- Keith A. Morse, Editor for Personal Freedom Outreach
>
>"The evidence that David Lane uncovered of Paul Twitchell's creating a
false
>history of his rise to leadership of Eckankar indicates extensive
corruption. That
>the leadership has done nothing to correct Twitchell's false claims, yea,
have
>perpetuated them, indicates a significant problem at the heart of that
>organization." -- J. Gordon Melton, Director of the Institute for the Study
of
>American Religion
>
>No offense intended, dear friend, but I feel that you still have more
Eckankar
>programming to let go of if you think books that assert that Twitchell was
in
>control of the entire universe, born of a virgin, and omniscient are part
of an
>astonishing body of LEGITIMATE work.
Chuck responded:
I believe that Paul Twitchell's works represent an astonishing
accomplishment, but by no means legitimate. I was holding in my hand a copy
of "With a Great Master in India" minutes before writing this post. I can
see the quite obvious and extensive copying in the manuscript. I haven't
seen any other works that could be plagiarism sources for many of Paul's
other works such as "the Flute of God. but that doesn't mean that sources
will not be uncovered in the years to come.
I am fascinated by the sheer balls that the guy had to go along with his
creativity and other talents. I am drawn to discover what in the hell he was
up to that would have influenced me to the extent of investing 14 years of
my life in the teaching.
The sheer magnitude and nerve of what Twitchell has done, brings to mind a
pilot associate of mine who is now in federal prison. He was caught flying
drugs into the U.S and ended up being an informant and double agent for the
DEA and Customs. He would recruit pilots who wanted to make quick money and
train them to fly drugs from Mexico into the U.S. When they would bring a
shipment in, the pilots would get busted and he would start the process all
over again. He was allowed to live a lavish lifestyle from drug money so his
cover would be believable. This guy had big balls because if the Mexicans
found out what he was doing they would have carved him into fish bait. I was
fascinated by the scope and audacity of his activities. His freedom came to
an end when he was caught bringing more drugs in the nose of the plane than
the manifest report to the DEA showed. He was going to sell the extra stuff
and make a side profit. He was convicted and sent to prison.
>If you still believe that you once saw plagiarism-speaking "Vairagi"
masters,
>whose names were once Kirpal Singh, Guru Nanak, Kabir, Swami Premananda and
Jesus
>in Twitchell's original books, well, what can I say, except that followers
of
>Gandhi said they saw him in his "astral form" in their rooms at night, and
that
>Gandhi made it clear that they were ALL just hallucinating?
>
>I was once convinced that an Indian guru was God, and had vivid experiences
that
>"corroborated" this. Later, I discovered allegations that he was involved
in
>smuggling, frequent drug and alcohol abuse, sexual improprieties, and was
verbally
>abusive to his staff. He also allegedly admitted to his senior aide that
he was
>lying about being God on earth, but said that he was making so much money
from his
>scam that he couldn't let go and tell his followers the truth.
>
>Do you know any other "gurus" in this same position? I do.
>
>He now, allegedly, is denying that he ever claimed to be God on earth!
(This is
>an improvement over Twitchell, who held onto this absurd claim until the
end).
>
>My experiences with this guru were all a product of the power of suggestion
and a
>deep longing to know God in human form, and nothing else. When I read his
books
>now, they don't have the same ring of awesome, cosmic truth that they once
did
>when I was one of his brainwashed, dues-paying lackeys.
>
>Nonetheless, they're still light years ahead of Twitchell's quasi-fictional
new
>age farce, replete with plagiarism-speaking "masters", one of whom came
from Venus
>to earth to start Eckankar 6 million years ago and taught the apes how to
use
>fire.
>
>You were right about the "astonishing" part.
>
>Dove
>
Chuck responded:
Thanks for your concern and the effort you put into this post. Many of us
ex-eckists feel as though we have been reamed by the bishop while the
multitudes watched on secret closed curcuit television. I do not feel that
the genesis and the existence of Eckankar has been satisfactorily explained
thus far. Perhaps the internet and other means will help to piece together
the whole story.
I have learned as you, to think and experience for myself, question
everything, especially what I read, and follow no master but my self. I
think the experience in Eckankar actually helped lead me to the point of
being able to do this.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Rich
> Perhaps we will never get Eckists to talk of their experiences except in the
> official sanctioned view of Eckankar especially higher initiates and long
> time members.
You have been away from Eckankar too long Chuck. Your view has narrowed
to only what your experience was and not as it is in Eckankar today.
Because of the brutal nature of the way detractors lie, insult and
misrepresent so much, most Eckist here find it prudent not to engage in
sharing their personal experiences. This is not Eckankar. Go to a
discussion, a round table, a workshop and you will likely be surprised
how off base your assumptions are.
Rich
> Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
> >I see learning to control the balancing of opposites in duality not as
> >controlling mechanism to create dependance, but as the _freeing agent_
> >to enable one to stand on their own, outside of any organization,
> >philosophy or religious belief system, and simply accept the
> >responsibility of your creations. Isn't it ignorance that binds?
> >Gaining a Knowingness about duality facilitates moving out of it into
> >Self-Realization.
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> Rich, in my fourteen years in Eckankar I had plenty of time to grasp fully
> and completely what was being taught. I was, I believe, quite balanced
> within the works.
>
> There is nothing freeing about teaching the "so called" reality of the law
> of karma.
I believe you when you say that was your experience and it is true for
you. A few others like Paul Markert also had a different understanding
and therefore felt limited by their fear. That was not the case with
me.
> It can be very difficult to understand the subtlety of this
> control factor after you have accepted and emraced it as reality and a main
> tenet of your religion over a long period of time.
I agree, but you and Paul M embraced something that I did/do not.
> NOW, is the pivotal point of eternity. This moment is all there is. The Eck
> or spirit is flowing through your worldview like playdough coming out of a
> playdough shaper and this energy is powering, electrically, the seemingly
> objective realty that you are experiencing. The modus operandi of this
> process is the abilty we have to hold a picture or series of pictures in our
> attention. The "outerness" of the physical world is an utter and complete
> illusion. All situations, people, objects, circumstances, and conditions are
> nothing but interpretations of electrical impulses triggered by imaginary
> action in this projected universe of thought that is continuously flowing
> projector like, through the matrix of your worldview.
OK, we've been over all that and I agreed that that is like the
viewpoint of Soul.
> You are not DOING anything to anyone.
Yes I am. I do not ignore that this body that I now reside in is
subject to duality. It was young, now it's older. I dwell in a male
body as opposed to a female. My emotional body sometimes respond to
others with love and sometimes with anger. My mind thinks you are on the
right track, but an overinflated ego may hold you back.<G>
> There is naught but you, surrounded by
> your illusory creations. These creations, including your body and the world
> that seemingly surrounds you, exist as illusory thought interactions for the
> purpose of assisting you in understanding, defining, and expressing who and
> what you are as God. You cannot most likely accept at this point anyway,
> that you are indeed God observing and interacting in, conceptual universes
> and experiences that were created by yourself in thought.
Yes I do. If you don't 'mind', it never 'matters'. ;-)
> It was all created
> at one time, everything, every illusory experience, everything you are and
> can possibly become, exists within you right now, and you are choosing to
> examine portions of it minutely in a time sequence that you consider to be
> your lifetime.
Yes! I am using these dualistic bodies.
<SNIP>
> If you were to resign yourself to the inevitability of karma,
I have not.
> believing that you are somehow bound to, or paying off debts from the past,
But I don't. Understanding the modus operandi and experiencing myself
as Soul has freed me to view all this as my creations. They are not
debts. I am not bound. It is my _creations_ that exist in duality that
are limited to those universes.
> you may never leave the prison. If you know, believe, and understand that
> NOW can be changed forever in the twinkling of an eye by placing attention
> only on the pictures that reflect what it is that you desire to be your
> experience, without regard for any past pictures or "so called" actions,
> then your situation could change that quickly.
Ah, but you can't do that as a human. You can't change your 'picture'
and in the twinkling of an eye be here in Hawaii. That's my point.
That instantaneous stuff does not happen here in the
matter/energy/time/space realm of human experience. You confuse the
two.
> You are much freer than you have been told or have
> been led to believe.
Excuse me... I am certainly free of your 'pictures' of me as being
limited.:-/
> I am God
Oooh boy.
<SNIP you telling me what I believe and what I should believe>
> I will say once again that the model of life as laid out in Eckankar
(As you interpret it)
> which
> shows a lower world force such as Kal who amuses himself by tempting,
> confusing, waylaying and opposing souls efforts to understand its divinity,
> is a crude and vulgar model.
Perhaps but it is an aide as a workable model for the human
consciousness to gain an understanding that they are Soul and not
subject to that illusion.
> It is a cartoon like portrayal which has
> absolutely no basis in fact.
In your mind.
> Have you ever personally seen the negative
> genious manifested in your soul travel experiences? Has anyone that you know
> personally experienced this?
I am not sure what you meant by "genious". I have had encounters with
_extremely_ negative entities/forces but I did not fear them. I put them
out of my space or they left when they recognized that they had no
influence over me. That's not to say that I am aware in the human
consciousness of all the subtle things that affect me in the dualistic
realms. I don't need to.
> The "law of silence" probably forbids you to
> discuss such things with higher initiates as it did me when I was in
> Eckankar.
Aaw cut the nonsense Dave. I discuss what I please. I am not forbidden
anything as you apparently accepted you were.
> This silences encourages lack of dialogue, comparison and
> objective evaluation of inner experiences and it is actually another control
> factor within any religion including Eckankar.
No Dave, not for me. I understand the Law of Silence differently than
you. I may choose to be silent when it is a personal experience that
was particular to my own spiritual unfoldment. I may choose to be
silent so as to not limit the experience by encapsulating it into
words. I may choose to be silent because of the "pearls before swine"
waste. I may choose to be silent because there are not adequate words
to describe the experience. I was really not as controlled as you
allowed yourself to be.
> The higher you go, the less
> you can speak openly of your experiences.
Excuse me... was that your experience? It's not mine.
> This is a subtle factor within the
> works which discourages true communication, objectivity and unbiased
> evaluation of your experiences within Eckankar.
I believe you and others when you say that you succumbed to these
factors.
> Do not be afraid to speak of your most intimate experiences to others...
I am not afraid. Where you?
> and
> ask honest and probing questions about their experiences as well. They do
> not seek to eliminate and destroy your realizations as agents of the Kal as
> you have been taught throughout the writings, speeches, and discourses of
> Eckankar.
I was taught from the very beginning to question everything until my
experience prove it true for me. I never encountered "they" as agents
of Kal, apparently you did. My take was/is one of always learning and
expanding my awareness from all things that come into my sphere of
experience.
> >I generally agree with all this. Soul is free and God has no
> >attributes. But your premise only holds true from there. You created a
> >body, emotions and mind that _are_ subject to duality, yes? Illusionary
> >as they may be, hot and cold, positive and negative, male and female,
> >close and far, young and old, black and white all exist in these. For
> >every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why do you have a
> >such an aversion to that that you negate it's existance Chuck? Why take
> >such a negative view of these realities and the experiences that you
> >create therein? Certainly we can learn to not be controlled by fear and
> >know that we create these realities. What you propose(no duality) would
> >entail no bodies... :-O
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> I concur that we have indeed created our own bodies, emotional, physical,
> mental, or otherwise. Your physical body which is to all "appearances"
> subject to gravity, when elevated to a height above the earth of around 160
> miles, ceases to be affected by gravity or so called laws of cause and
> effect.
Hellooo...? Space is still the physical world and subject to physical
laws. Did you study science in school? Gravity is a different law than
cause and effect. You really seem confused about Newton's findings and
Soul.
> The physically invisible worlds and universes inside you which give
> rise to the existence and maintenance of the ongoing illusion of what you
> consider to be your body, are quite outside the limitations of gravity,
> time, and or cause and effect as we have come to understand it. Persons who
> have accomplished levitation, have merely temporarily broken their covenant
> or assumptive agreement with these supposedly immutable laws.
>
> I don't refute the existence of laws of physics, but I tell you that these
> laws are based on incomplete, obselete, and outdated models of reality and
> are not the absolute laws we consider them to be.
We? You repeatedly and incorrectly assume what I know. Why is that?
> >> In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told to
> wait
> >> at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace.
> Enough
> >> control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until mom
> >> gets back.
> >
> >I assume that you are speaking about your own experience? Who treated
> >you that way? The LEM? Or was it how you interpreted what you read
> >somewhere?
No answer?
> >> In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told to
> wait
> >> at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace.
> Enough
> >> control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until mom
> >> gets back.
> >
> >Like I mentioned in another post, you have been out of touch for a long
> >time Chuck. Eckists are doing these very things. Eckists have directed
> >feature films with major stars, are producing major films, winning the
> >Billboard Song Writing Contest, working on the cutting edge in
> >electronic media storage, a doctor at Mayo Clinic, ect. These are just
> >a few that I personally know off the top of my head.
No answer?
> >> I tell you it is because you are afraid to get as big as you
> >> are because it may throw up a red flag in the home office, contradict
> >> official Eck positioning, or maybe even that you are not worthy and
> >> qualified. Even worse you may have accepted the control implant that this
> >> "ashcan universe" is not worth the effort anyway
>
> Rich wrote:
>
> >Chuck, this is beginning to feel like an attack on Eckists. What
> >happened to "My purpose is not detraction or deconstruction"? I know...
> >it's easy to fall into that mode here in A.R.E. Not to worry... happens
> >to the best of us.<G>
>
> Chuck replied:
>
> Detraction and deconstruction are not my objectives, nor is attacking
> Eckists. I have surfaced around 30 days ago to start posting on this NG
> after 15 years of being out of Eckankar. This kind of relation was not
> possible until now. This is probably some of my last posts on this NG as I
> feel that I've pretty much said everything that I wanted to say.
Thanks for the long lectures of what "we" should do to gain your
spiritual heights.<g>
> You are my
> dear brothers and what I have written is out of love and concern for your
> freedom and well being.
You might try not talking down to us then?<g>
> >Nevertheless, what made you think that Eckists would have do these
> >things under the auspicious of Eckankar? Eckankar is a spiritual
> >organization and has not used the celebrity of any of it's members to
> >promote the path. Nor do I think it will be backing any scientific
> >research, feature films or pop music. Eckankar's policy, even when you
> >were a member, was to not interfere with the private lives of it
> >members.
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> My point was, don't sit around in a spiritual circle with your hands folded
> waiting for the next top-down dogma to be issued from those you consider to
> be higher or more unfolded than yourself.
I assume that's what you did. Why do you assume that I ever did this?
> Break out, question authority,
> stretch out to your full expression, drop all fears and restrictive
> considerations like the hot coals that they are, amswer to no one but your
> SELF.
I think I'll do what is best for my spiritual growth, thank you very
much, and not what you dictate from your condescending perspective.
> If we want to be as God is, the divinity that we really are, we must
> remove every limited concept that we have ever accepted about who and what
> we are, and what life is.
Try starting with removing the concept that you know what others
experiences are, and what is best for others.
> These must be lovingly and gradually exchanged for
> more expanded and unlimited understandings of the science of God.
The science of God? Science is the mind at work. Direct perception is
how Soul Knows.
> All concepts such as karma, satan(Kal), and anything else that puts as in a
> child/parent relationship with God can be replaced with the more unlimited
> understandings that God is lawless and limitless and WE are God. WE know
> what we are doing here. We have forgotten willingly as is necessary to
> accept the illusory limitied expression of time and space, but can expand
> into the larger memory beyond our forgetfulness at any time.
Right. One of the great difficulties in discussing these things is that
the POV tends to jump around from Soul, the higher mental realms and the
mundane. This causes arguments like yours to become skewed. I think we
agree more than you believe.
TruthSeeker
Rich wrote in message <39BA1A...@aloha.net>...
>You have been away from Eckankar too long Chuck. Your view has narrowed
>to only what your experience was and not as it is in Eckankar today.
>Because of the brutal nature of the way detractors lie, insult and
>misrepresent so much, most Eckist here find it prudent not to engage in
>sharing their personal experiences. This is not Eckankar. Go to a
>discussion, a round table, a workshop and you will likely be surprised
>how off base your assumptions are.
*******
I found that to be true. Things have changed alot, and the discussions in
round tables and duscussion groups are usually very lively, satisfactory,
and completely focused on the spiritual needs of today. Without giving my
reasons for leaving ECKANKAR I have to say that leaving, or rather, choosing
to no longer to be a card-carrying member of ECKANKAR, was the easy part. As
in any church or community, it is the relationships with people one misses
most. It pains me that religions, although on the one hand do bring people
together, can also create such division. But I've made peace with that, and
if I haven't yet achieved total peace within myself over that issue, I shall
keep trying.
Jim Agricola
TruthSeeker wrote:
> Rich wrote in message <39BA1A...@aloha.net>...
>
> >You have been away from Eckankar too long Chuck. Your view has narrowed
> >to only what your experience was and not as it is in Eckankar today.
> >Because of the brutal nature of the way detractors lie, insult and
> >misrepresent so much, most Eckist here find it prudent not to engage in
> >sharing their personal experiences. This is not Eckankar. Go to a
> >discussion, a round table, a workshop and you will likely be surprised
> >how off base your assumptions are.
>
> *******
> I found that to be true. Things have changed alot, and the discussions in
> round tables and duscussion groups are usually very lively, satisfactory,
> and completely focused on the spiritual needs of today.
Yeah, a bunch of Newagers sitting around a table stroking each other sounds like
a great way to make friends. Did yu kiss pictures of Harold too?
> Without giving my
> reasons for leaving ECKANKAR I have to say that leaving, or rather, choosing
> to no longer to be a card-carrying member of ECKANKAR, was the easy part.
Yeah, you just throw the card in the toilet and flush. Easy.
> As
> in any church or community, it is the relationships with people one misses
> most.
Yes, in most churches, but in Eckankar it shouldn't be a problem because it's
"THE ME" religion. You'll get over it in no time once you meet some normal
people.(g)
> It pains me that religions, although on the one hand do bring people
> together, can also create such division. But I've made peace with that, and
> if I haven't yet achieved total peace within myself over that issue, I shall
> keep trying.
Keep trying and keep me posted. We detractors love to hear the countless
"Failure" stories about Eckankar.
"How Eckankar Let Me Down" in 500 words or less. You WILL be happier in the long
haul.
Jim
TruthSeeker
Jim Agricola wrote in message <39BAA260...@hotmail.com>...
>
RE:
>> I found that to be true. Things have changed alot, and the discussions
in
>> round tables and duscussion groups are usually very lively, satisfactory,
>> and completely focused on the spiritual needs of today.
Jim: Yeah, a bunch of Newagers sitting around a table stroking each other
sounds like
>a great way to make friends. Did yu kiss pictures of Harold too?
No, I don't believe people in this ECKANKAR stroke their fellow worshippers
more than do people in any other religion...in fact, I can honestly say that
the ECKists I know personally are not into stroking each other as much as
people I 've met in other denominations. So, at least in my experience, your
comments are a bit off. No, I never did kiss pictures of Harold, although I
did carry a picture of him with me on my travels, and, either by the placebo
effect or otherwise, did benefit from having his picture with me. That's
good enough for me. I don't feel a need to dredge up the past and beat
myself up over how I felt or did in the past. If I benefited from having
Klemp's photo with me, I was served, was I not?
RE:
>> Without giving my
>> reasons for leaving ECKANKAR I have to say that leaving, or rather,
choosing
>> to no longer to be a card-carrying member of ECKANKAR, was the easy part.
>
>You missed my point Jim. Oh well.
RE:
>> As in any church or community, it is the relationships with people one
misses
>> most.
>
>Yes, in most churches, but in Eckankar it shouldn't be a problem because
it's
>"THE ME" religion. You'll get over it in no time once you meet some normal
>people.(g)
Hihihihi. You got me there...I DON'T WANT TO BE NORMAL. The Eckist I do
know are way to normal for me, but I love them anyway.
RE:
>> It pains me that religions, although on the one hand do bring people
>> together, can also create such division. But I've made peace with that,
and
>> if I haven't yet achieved total peace within myself over that issue, I
shall
>> keep trying.
>
JIM wrote.
>Keep trying and keep me posted. We detractors love to hear the countless
>"Failure" stories about Eckankar.
No, the only way to fail is to give up. I didn't give up on the spiritual
teachings and never will. But I'm the one who choses what to believe, not
someone else. I will gladly listen to others, including you, for you have
made some real good points in some of your posts. I'm like a combine...I
separate the wheat from the chaff in order to arrive at my own truth.
Another way to look at it is like a reverse osmosis unit that filters lousy
water to get to the good water. It takes quite a few gallons of lousy water
to get to the good stuff.
PEACE.
Chuck Stockdale
Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>Chuck Stockdale wrote:
>
>> Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
>
>> >I see learning to control the balancing of opposites in duality not as
>> >controlling mechanism to create dependance, but as the _freeing agent_
>> >to enable one to stand on their own, outside of any organization,
>> >philosophy or religious belief system, and simply accept the
>> >responsibility of your creations. Isn't it ignorance that binds?
>> >Gaining a Knowingness about duality facilitates moving out of it into
>> >Self-Realization.
>> >
>> Chuck responded:
>>
>> Rich, in my fourteen years in Eckankar I had plenty of time to grasp
fully
>> and completely what was being taught. I was, I believe, quite balanced
>> within the works.
>>
>> There is nothing freeing about teaching the "so called" reality of the
law
>> of karma.
>
>I believe you when you say that was your experience and it is true for
>you. A few others like Paul Markert also had a different understanding
>and therefore felt limited by their fear. That was not the case with
>me.
>
Chuck responded:
It is fortunate that your grasp of the teaching gave you a different
understanding. But what of the many others that have interpreted what was
being written and spoken quite literally? Where is your responsibility and
that of the leadership towards these people? When you throw concepts out
there that are portrayed to be the ultimate truth, trusting people will
accept this as stated.
Many people have experienced great confusion and anguish in the quietness of
their hearts and minds from the acceptance of these fear and control based
factors within the teaching of Eckankar.I think they know at a deep level,
that they do not resonate with the same frequency as the joy and upliftment
that the path provides.
Chuck responded,
The refusal of some scientists to accept the so called "obvious" fact that
we are living in a world of solid objects, has led to many technological
advances such as the fax machine, cell phones, sub molecular computer chips,
and many many other things that have benefitted all of humanity including
this information highway we are now communicating on.
I have attempted to defend my claim that karma as it is portrayed in
Eckankar is a loveless, incorrect interpretation of what is actually
occuring in our human experience. I would like to quote a couple of
paragraphs from "The Far Country" by Paul Twitchell: "As the waking
condition destroys the dream completely, the condition of self realization
destroys the waking experience completely. The body of the observer is also
a product of thought just as it happens in dreams."(pg.173)
And another: "Bertrand Russel said, When one cosmic time and one persisting
space are abolished, we have space-time instead. Our notion of the world
structure is changed. There is no cosmic time. We must give up the idea of
bodies moving and the talk of events. The unity of a body is the unity of
its history, like the unity of a time. Our aspects and interpretations of
the universe are constructions of the mind of man." (pg.181)
These words in "The Far Country" were a catylist for me to understand what
was really happening with karma, and other aspects of our human experience.
What confused me was some of the information that rang true in this book,
was blended in with other controlling aspects such as the immutable law of
karma, in a contradictory and disharmoneous blend. I believe that Twitchell
probably unaware of the misunderstanding and confusion this would later
cause, compiled information that he had received from reading many books.
For example the concept of Kal and karma seemed to have mainly originated
from his exposure to the Radha Soami system of spiritual science. In my copy
of "With a Great Master in India", the concepts of karma and Kal forces are
identical to the writings in Eckankar. I believe Twitchell copied this and
threw it into his spiritual blender thinking that it sounded good enough,
was similar to what westerners understood from the satan and evil forces
depicted the Christian Bible, and it would give a bonus control implant to
help his chelas keep the "five passions of the mind" in check. He may have
reasoned that all men require in the untrustwothiness of their hearts, a
scary warning sort of dogma that would discourage amoral conduct in his
following.
Chuck responded:
The degree of your conviction about "not being able to change your picture
in the twinkling of an eye and be here in Hawaii" will determine the amount
of time it takes you to get to hawaii, or out of prison as in the other
example. I do maintain that it can be quite instantaneous. This is my whole
point here. What you accept as being true, becomes your the new operating
system in your consciousness and your means of causing and later
interpreting your experience.
>> You are much freer than you have been told or have
>> been led to believe.
>
>Excuse me... I am certainly free of your 'pictures' of me as being
>limited.:-/
Chuck responded:
Your assertion that the laws of karma and physics are immutable has
compelled me to make the statement about your relative freedom. It don't
mean it to be condescending whatsoever.
>> I am God
>Oooh boy.
Chuck responded:
It is well for every man to think of himself as one with the father. We are
ALL the true sons excluding none.The height and the true balance of mature
self regard, and self realization,is coming into the full acceptance and
understanding of this fact.
><SNIP you telling me what I believe and what I should believe>
>
Chuck responded:
No, I really don't care what you believe. Everything I say may be wrong. The
option for removing it from your sight is only as close as your delete
button.
>> I will say once again that the model of life as laid out in Eckankar
>
>(As you interpret it)
>> which
>> shows a lower world force such as Kal who amuses himself by tempting,
>> confusing, waylaying and opposing souls efforts to understand its
divinity,
>> is a crude and vulgar model.
>
>Perhaps but it is an aide as a workable model for the human
>consciousness to gain an understanding that they are Soul and not
>subject to that illusion.
>
Chuck responded:
Its use has run its course in our human history, were ready for a larger,
more loving, and more accurate model.
>> It is a cartoon like portrayal which has
>> absolutely no basis in fact.
>
>In your mind.
>
>
>> Have you ever personally seen the negative
>> genious manifested in your soul travel experiences? Has anyone that you
know
>> personally experienced this?
>
>I am not sure what you meant by "genious". I have had encounters with
>_extremely_ negative entities/forces but I did not fear them. I put them
>out of my space or they left when they recognized that they had no
>influence over me. That's not to say that I am aware in the human
>consciousness of all the subtle things that affect me in the dualistic
>realms. I don't need to.
>
Chuck responded:
I have had encounters with extremely negative entities/forces in traffic
altercations. What I am talking about here is the Kal Niranjan
manifestations as described in the "tigers Fang" and many other Eck
writings.
Chuck replied:
Yes,,,, I'm here.
Gravity is a demonstration of the law of cause and effect. Gravity is the
force of attraction by which objects are caused to fall toward the center of
the earth (cause), and the effect is the result of objects moving toward the
center of the earth while under the influence of the force of gravity.
Chuck replied:
Yes. I was compelled to speak, perform music, and write within the somewhat
narrow confines of the Eckankar official positions on everything, which was
also true for the most of the other Eckists I knew. Harold would say that
you are free within the works etc., but when all of the writings and
discourses imply that outside influences are lower and Eckankar is the
highest written spiritual body of knowledge available, then the wind is
taken out of your individual expressive sail.
>> >> In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told
to
>> wait
>> >> at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace.
>> Enough
>> >> control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until
mom
>> >> gets back.
>> >
>> >Like I mentioned in another post, you have been out of touch for a long
>> >time Chuck. Eckists are doing these very things. Eckists have directed
>> >feature films with major stars, are producing major films, winning the
>> >Billboard Song Writing Contest, working on the cutting edge in
>> >electronic media storage, a doctor at Mayo Clinic, ect. These are just
>> >a few that I personally know off the top of my head.
>
>No answer?
Chuck replied:
These refrences are always vague with no specific info on who it is that is
producing, and what they are producing. It is always portrayed as silent
channels in the backgroud of life silently changing the great spiritual and
physical landscape but never saying who they are lest vanity (one of the
five passions of the mind), should grip them as a result of their
egotistical admission of authorship, and plunge them head over heels to the
bottom of the spiritual ladder.
>
>>> >> I tell you it is because you are afraid to get as big as you
>> >> are because it may throw up a red flag in the home office, contradict
>> >> official Eck positioning, or maybe even that you are not worthy and
>> >> qualified. Even worse you may have accepted the control implant that
this
>> >> "ashcan universe" is not worth the effort anyway
>>
>> Rich wrote:
>>
>> >Chuck, this is beginning to feel like an attack on Eckists. What
>> >happened to "My purpose is not detraction or deconstruction"? I know...
>> >it's easy to fall into that mode here in A.R.E. Not to worry... happens
>> >to the best of us.<G>
>>
>> Chuck replied:
>>
>> Detraction and deconstruction are not my objectives, nor is attacking
>> Eckists. I have surfaced around 30 days ago to start posting on this NG
>> after 15 years of being out of Eckankar. This kind of relation was not
>> possible until now. This is probably some of my last posts on this NG as
I
>> feel that I've pretty much said everything that I wanted to say.
>
>Thanks for the long lectures of what "we" should do to gain your
>spiritual heights.<g>
>
>
>> You are my
>> dear brothers and what I have written is out of love and concern for your
>> freedom and well being.
>
>You might try not talking down to us then?<g>
>
Chuck replied:
Rich:
I do not percieve myself as above you. we are all horizontal. I have tried
to elaborate on my post to reply to your comments on their lack of
foundation, but it may have come off like a lecture. Sorry. That was not the
intention. My only intention throughout, is to state my experience as I see
it for any one that is interested. Possibly to create awareness of some of
the control factors that have been interspersed throughout the teachings of
Eckankar, which are not in my estimation, in any way beneficial.
>> >Nevertheless, what made you think that Eckists would have do these
>> >things under the auspicious of Eckankar? Eckankar is a spiritual
>> >organization and has not used the celebrity of any of it's members to
>> >promote the path. Nor do I think it will be backing any scientific
>> >research, feature films or pop music. Eckankar's policy, even when you
>> >were a member, was to not interfere with the private lives of it
>> >members.
>> >
>> Chuck responded:
>>
>> My point was, don't sit around in a spiritual circle with your hands
folded
>> waiting for the next top-down dogma to be issued from those you consider
to
>> be higher or more unfolded than yourself.
>
>I assume that's what you did. Why do you assume that I ever did this?
>
>
>> Break out, question authority,
>> stretch out to your full expression, drop all fears and restrictive
>> considerations like the hot coals that they are, amswer to no one but
your
>> SELF.
>
>I think I'll do what is best for my spiritual growth, thank you very
>much, and not what you dictate from your condescending perspective.
>
Chuck replied:
Yes absolutely! And that's up to you to decide.
>> If we want to be as God is, the divinity that we really are, we must
>> remove every limited concept that we have ever accepted about who and
what
>> we are, and what life is.
>
>Try starting with removing the concept that you know what others
>experiences are, and what is best for others.
>
>
>> These must be lovingly and gradually exchanged for
>> more expanded and unlimited understandings of the science of God.
>
>The science of God? Science is the mind at work. Direct perception is
>how Soul Knows.
>
>
>> All concepts such as karma, satan(Kal), and anything else that puts as in
a
>> child/parent relationship with God can be replaced with the more
unlimited
>> understandings that God is lawless and limitless and WE are God. WE know
>> what we are doing here. We have forgotten willingly as is necessary to
>> accept the illusory limitied expression of time and space, but can expand
>> into the larger memory beyond our forgetfulness at any time.
>
>Right. One of the great difficulties in discussing these things is that
>the POV tends to jump around from Soul, the higher mental realms and the
>mundane. This causes arguments like yours to become skewed. I think we
>agree more than you believe.
Chuck replied:
I think you're right Rich, you have many good and valid points, and I think
we are saying the same thing in many instances. We are the same. we're all
sons of the Total, individual likenesses of God.
Jim Agricola
TruthSeeker wrote:
Hihihihi. You got me there...I DON'T WANT TO BE NORMAL. The Eckist I do
> know are way to normal for me, but I love them anyway.
What's normal? I'm talking about people who aren't mind-fucked by Eckankar,
that's all.
BTW what's your call sign? Only a ham knows hi-hi-hi.
73's Truth Seeker...
Jim
Rich
> Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
> >Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> >
> >> Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
> >I believe you when you say that was your experience and it is true for
> >you. A few others like Paul Markert also had a different understanding
> >and therefore felt limited by their fear. That was not the case with
> >me.
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> It is fortunate that your grasp of the teaching gave you a different
> understanding. But what of the many others that have interpreted what was
> being written and spoken quite literally?
This is the only place that I have been exposed to this and it's only
been a handful of ex-Eckists. So I am skeptical if there really are
"many".
> Where is your responsibility and
> that of the leadership towards these people?
To continue to share my experience, which I do. But having shared that
experience, not one of those here has acknowledged responsibility for
their experience. Like you they want to blame Eckists, the Eck
leadership and the Eck Masters. Even though you tout that you create
your own "pictures", here you are saying that it is mine and the
leadership's responsibility. How do you reconcile that??
> When you throw concepts out
> there that are portrayed to be the ultimate truth, trusting people will
> accept this as stated.
There you go again.:-| I don't throw out any concept as the ultimate
truth.
> Many people have experienced great confusion and anguish in the quietness of
> their hearts and minds from the acceptance of these fear and control based
> factors within the teaching of Eckankar.I think they know at a deep level,
> that they do not resonate with the same frequency as the joy and upliftment
> that the path provides.
Of course they do. I just talked to my wife about this, because she is
an admittedly a very fearful person. She explained that the reason the
so called fear inducing/controlling statements mentioned in a few places
in the teachings did not bother her is simple. She was raised in an
open, loving and free manner, and not with a vengeful God concept. She
had never been in an organized religion when she came to Eckankar. She
majored in Early(0 to 5 years old)Human Development and says that
religious patterns set then usually carry into adulthood and will not be
removed from your basic personality, even for Eckists. As an example
she said her mother is basically a very fearless person, but, she was
raised by a bible thumping preacher who laid down the law. So although
they came into Eckankar together, their experiences are very different.
The mom always wants to be told what to do, is always looking to an
authority for approval. So she says it's not always about being
personally fearful, it's based in how you respond to authority. My wife
on the other hand was taught from early childhood to think for herself
and make her own decisions. So she tends to rebel against authority, be
it the Kal _or_ the Eckankar leadership.<G> Interesting example huh?
<SNIP>
> I have attempted to defend my claim that karma as it is portrayed in
> Eckankar is a loveless, incorrect interpretation of what is actually
> occuring in our human experience.
Like I keep saying, you have been away from Eckankar a long time.
"When you learn the lessons, when you understand the Law of Cause and
Effect, you graduate to the realization of divine love. Your life
becomes richer in the blink of an eye, because you have moved from the
consciousness of the masses to the spiritual consciousness of God, of
divine love."
Harold Klemp - The Slow Burning Love of God
<big SNIP>
> The degree of your conviction about "not being able to change your picture
> in the twinkling of an eye and be here in Hawaii" will determine the amount
> of time it takes you to get to hawaii, or out of prison as in the other
> example. I do maintain that it can be quite instantaneous. This is my whole
> point here. What you accept as being true, becomes your the new operating
> system in your consciousness and your means of causing and later
> interpreting your experience.
I agree in principal. I'm just taking the more realistic human POV for
those like us that are not God-Realized beings, who could choose to do
this. Don't want people trying to drive a car thru walls.<G>
> >> You are much freer than you have been told or have
> >> been led to believe.
> >
> >Excuse me... I am certainly free of your 'pictures' of me as being
> >limited.:-/
>
> Chuck responded:
>
> Your assertion that the laws of karma and physics are immutable has
> compelled me to make the statement about your relative freedom. It don't
> mean it to be condescending whatsoever.
I don't see anything in dualistic existance is immutable. Quite the
contrary, I see that 'truth' is a very slippery thing and that
everything changes. Perhaps Change is the only immutable thing.;-)
> >> I am God
>
> >Oooh boy.
>
> Chuck responded:
>
> It is well for every man to think of himself as one with the father. We are
> ALL the true sons excluding none.The height and the true balance of mature
> self regard, and self realization,is coming into the full acceptance and
> understanding of this fact.
That being true, my perspective is that Self and God-Realization
infinitely exceed that.
> ><SNIP you telling me what I believe and what I should believe>
> >
>
> Chuck responded:
>
> No, I really don't care what you believe. Everything I say may be wrong. The
> option for removing it from your sight is only as close as your delete
> button.
No, I'm interested in much of what you are saying. The point is I
wonder about you perspective in repeatedly taking _that_ stance.
> >> I will say once again that the model of life as laid out in Eckankar
> >
> >(As you interpret it)
> >> which
> >> shows a lower world force such as Kal who amuses himself by tempting,
> >> confusing, waylaying and opposing souls efforts to understand its
> divinity,
> >> is a crude and vulgar model.
> >
> >Perhaps but it is an aide as a workable model for the human
> >consciousness to gain an understanding that they are Soul and not
> >subject to that illusion.
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> Its use has run its course in our human history, were ready for a larger,
> more loving, and more accurate model.
Yes! Hence Eckankar today!<VBG>
> >> It is a cartoon like portrayal which has
> >> absolutely no basis in fact.
> >
> >In your mind.
> >
> >
> >> Have you ever personally seen the negative
> >> genious manifested in your soul travel experiences? Has anyone that you
> know
> >> personally experienced this?
> >
> >I am not sure what you meant by "genious". I have had encounters with
> >_extremely_ negative entities/forces but I did not fear them. I put them
> >out of my space or they left when they recognized that they had no
> >influence over me. That's not to say that I am aware in the human
> >consciousness of all the subtle things that affect me in the dualistic
> >realms. I don't need to.
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> I have had encounters with extremely negative entities/forces in traffic
> altercations. What I am talking about here is the Kal Niranjan
> manifestations as described in the "tigers Fang" and many other Eck
> writings.
That was Paul's universe. Remember towards the end of the book, after
his God-Realization experience, his seeing his "fierce children of the
light"? It's not my universe. We each create out own. To reach those
spiritual heights you must cast off all others... and then your own....
No one has to see the Kal as an evil entity. There are many other
models to choose from. It's just one side of the balance in duality.
Paul created a road map, a model, a meme or system but it's not the
thing itself. Recognizing the full scope of that is a step to
Self-Realization.
<big SNIP>
> Yes. I was compelled...
Compelled?<G> Hmmm... How so?
> to speak, perform music, and write within the somewhat
> narrow confines of the Eckankar official positions on everything, which was
> also true for the most of the other Eckists I knew. Harold would say that
> you are free within the works etc., but when all of the writings and
> discourses imply that outside influences are lower and Eckankar is the
> highest written spiritual body of knowledge available, then the wind is
> taken out of your individual expressive sail.
Many others have found the ECK to be extremely freeing and inspiring.
> >> >> In Eckankar, long time students are treated as children who are told
> to
> >> wait
> >> >> at the day care center while their parents shop in the marketplace.
> >> Enough
> >> >> control factors have been embedded to keep the student in line until
> mom
> >> >> gets back.
> >> >
> >> >Like I mentioned in another post, you have been out of touch for a long
> >> >time Chuck. Eckists are doing these very things. Eckists have directed
> >> >feature films with major stars, are producing major films, winning the
> >> >Billboard Song Writing Contest, working on the cutting edge in
> >> >electronic media storage, a doctor at Mayo Clinic, ect. These are just
> >> >a few that I personally know off the top of my head.
> >
> >No answer?
>
> Chuck replied:
>
> These refrences are always vague with no specific info on who it is that is
> producing, and what they are producing.
Martin Meader: Producer/Writer/Director most recently co-wrote and
co-executive produced PARADISE ROAD starring oscar winners Glen Close
and Frances McDormand.
Melodie Chrislock: Won first place in the Billboard Song Writing
Contest.
??? Can't remember the producers name but he did a live video conference
at the last Eckankar Writer & Arts Conference in Montreal.
I'm bad with name but I know the guy... darn, anyway he works for a
company that is developing hard drives.
Mara Kramer worked at Mayo until this year when she chose to go
elsewhere.
There are artists, writers, healers and leaders in all all walks of life
too numerous to mention.
> It is always portrayed as silent
> channels in the backgroud of life silently changing the great spiritual and
> physical landscape but never saying who they are lest vanity (one of the
> five passions of the mind), should grip them as a result of their
> egotistical admission of authorship, and plunge them head over heels to the
> bottom of the spiritual ladder.
You have a somewhat skewed view that is not prevalent today at all. Why
should they need to stand up and advertize their religion? The
teachings of Eckankar are about personal spiritual accomplishment, not
about social or cultural notoriety. The path of ECK is focused
spiritual growth, not changing the world. Eckist's do bring about
changes as a by product of greater consciousness.
<SNIP>
> I do not percieve myself as above you. we are all horizontal. I have tried
> to elaborate on my post to reply to your comments on their lack of
> foundation,
Lack of foundation? You don't think that's condescending?<G> Try
different experience. Why attempt to invalidate anyones perceptions?
<SNIP>
> >Right. One of the great difficulties in discussing these things is that
> >the POV tends to jump around from Soul, the higher mental realms and the
> >mundane. This causes arguments like yours to become skewed. I think we
> >agree more than you believe.
>
> Chuck replied:
>
> I think you're right Rich, you have many good and valid points, and I think
> we are saying the same thing in many instances. We are the same. we're all
> sons of the Total, individual likenesses of God.
Some are daughters. ;-D
--
Chuck Stockdale
>> I do not percieve myself as above you. we are all horizontal. I have
tried
>> to elaborate on my post to reply to your comments on their lack of
>> foundation,
Rich responded:
>Lack of foundation? You don't think that's condescending?<G> Try
>different experience. Why attempt to invalidate anyones perceptions?
Chuck replied:
Rich, I was talking about your inference that the essence of my posts have
no foundation.
Roger Haeske
misprint.
I was a Youth Rep for our state for quite a while. Did intro talks, taught
Satsangs, spoke at seminars. Eckankar totally changed and improved my life.
So I could never be violently against Eckankar. I still believe in about 80%
of the principles.
One thing I do nowadays is rely on my judgment much more than on trying to
determine some kind of waking dream. Although when I get the impulse from
Spirit I know it. I will be checking out the book that is supposed to
counteract what David Lane wrote. I've only briefly looked at it so far. Not
much to impress me at this point.
Eckankar I feel is good for the most part, but I believe in the 10 tenets
that Chuck Stockdale wrote about. There are many mind control practices in
Eckankar. But it never looks that way to the people who are inside Eckankar.
It never looked that way to me.
One thing I came to the conclusion is that I am a spiritual being and I
don't need anyone to initiate me because I am already an atom in the body of
god, as all other souls are. The only reason I left Eckankar is because I
found out that Paul Twitchell plagiarized, that when I thought Rebazar Tarzs
was speaking it was actually copied from some other book like "Awakened
Imagination," by Neville. A book by the way which I have and was written in
1954. Well before the "Far Country." That Paul Twitchell conveniently
switched the names of the real masters he had studied under once he printed
the book "The Flute of God," for Eckankar. Kirpal Singh a real person was
replaced by Sudar Singh. This as it relates to how the book was printed
originally in Orion Magazine.
If anyone has any info to disprove this Orion Magazine stuff I would be
interested. I did see a copy of a page from the Orion magazine and compared
it with The Flute. I did find the names of real spiritual masters in the
Orion version. In my copy of The Flute I instead saw Rebazar Tars and Sudar
Singh.
It's funny but in all my years of Eckankar I never saw any of the masters
except Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp. I saw other masters but could never
identify who they were. Also just because someone see's something in their
imagination does not mean they are a master or a real being. I have had
several contemplations where cartoon characters came to life and were
extremely realistic.
Peace and Love to all, Roger
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
"Len" <sv77...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8pobjh$f2v$1...@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com...
> I agree, sounds like someone who truly had been in Eckankar from 1986
until
> 1987.
>
> Len
>
> "Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote in message
> news:8poaka$1...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net...
> > I was an Eckist for 11 years. 1986 till 1987. I was also deeply
involved.
> > Had many positive and uplifting experiences. But Eckankars focus on the
> > inner life left my outer life not progressing. I didn't do very well
> > materially. Anyway I don't have time to post in detail. But many factors
> > came along to influence my decision to leave. The main factor was
finding
> > out that the Eckankar books were plagiarized and that the Eck Masters
> never
> > even existed. That was a tremendous blow to accept. But eventually I
> opened
> > my mind enough to realize that David Lane was speaking the truth. I
found
> > examples of plagiarism myself.
> >
> > I realized there were many subtle mind control techniques. And it never
> made
> > sense to me how the Mahanta was the spiritual leader of the universe.
> Harold
> > Klemp claims that he in his own personal awareness even leads the people
> on
> > different planets and different galaxies while he has bodies there. That
> is
> > getting just a little ridicules. Most Eckists won't read other
spiritual
> > books because it is frowned upon in eckankar. That is also a way to keep
> > them from being informed.
> >
> >
>
>
Len
gruendemann
Did this same letter come through a few weeks ago? Oh well... So was the
typo the 11 years or the years 86-87?
Couldn't have been too deeply involved if david lane swayed him so easily.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through lane's tactics. :-/
dave50am...@my-deja.com
gruendemann <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Jim Agricola wrote:
> >
> > Cheryl,
> > It seems to me that Chuck was asking a valid question of which he
made no
> > mention of "deconstruction" . I believe it may be an honest effort
to have
> > detractors open up and share their experiences with Eckankar and
why they left
> > the path. If Eckankar works for you, maybe this could be a good
time to
> > counter with why and how it works.
>
> Lane's group is deconstructionist... that's what I said. Not that
this is
> what Chuck is, just warning him before he goes there. Clear?
> As to having ex-ECKists open up, I agree this would be nice for a
change.
> Usually what we get is attacked. I will try to withhold judgment til
we
> see whether or not this turns into another bashing session of ex-
eckists
> trying to change ECKists minds about staying in Eckankar. <yawn>
>
Actually there is no Lane's group. There is no particular program and
no affinity between the persons who post there. Lane himself rarely
comments, and the subject matter varies, but has no direction or
control. Some of the people who post there seem to be suffering from
mighty delusions but who knows?
Dave
> I would love to add why Eckankar works for me, but this is a.r.e. and
I
> don't think I'd be interested in offering too much information about
> myself here. :-)
>
> <snip the standard David Lane follwers commercial>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
gruendemann
also listed as founder last I looked. Neuralsurfer? Ring a bell? He has
something on the order of 14 or so Clubs on Yahoo. And it does seem that
the same handful of posters there ends up here. :-) It is
deconstructionist based, as is Lanes study of Eckankar.
dave50am...@my-deja.com
gruendemann <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Actually, guess what? Lane created the group. Seriously, ask him. He's
> also listed as founder last I looked. Neuralsurfer? Ring a bell? He
has
> something on the order of 14 or so Clubs on Yahoo. And it does seem
that
> the same handful of posters there ends up here. :-) It is
> deconstructionist based, as is Lanes study of Eckankar.
Yes the forum was created by Lane, but the group of people that post
there have no affiliation with him. Lane rarely posts there, but he is
nuetral as to the subject matter. 100 eckists could join and flood the
place with a line dance of quotes from the eckmasters. Kara Holly=
Ms.Ormad. There is no direction to what is said or posted there, and
only Troll and myself, and Kara Holly post in both places. Troll by the
way believes in the eck masters, and says he has soul travelled with
Rebazar Tars.
Chuck Stockdale
"Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote:
Roger,
Thanks for taking the time to post something about your experience in
Eckankar. It seems that as soon as you arrive at this news group to post
your sincere thoughts about your experiences, that some Eckists feel
compelled to try to nullify what you have written as if it is the
insignificant ramblings of the spiritually lost.
Their efforts to counter, and render meaningless, your heartfelt ideas about
what occured during this substantial period of your life, in their minds
represents a service to the Eck. I remember the mindset when I was in
Eckankar. There is a sense of a war going on between the Eck and the Kal and
the valiant warriors of the Eck are insuring their triumphant welcome into
heaven by their various services including the attempt to neutralize
postings by ex-eckists on this NG.
As you probably have deduced by now, this depressing model of the workings
of life has no reality except in the minds of the fervent believers. There
is no war, there is no struggle necessary, only freedom, and God.
After I left Eckankar, I moved to a new city and one day I noticed an
Eckankar bumper sticker on a car. It looked like around 1978 vintage
oldsmobile 98 or something. It was an old junky car and to me it was a
symbol of the physical disfunction that the incongrous Teachings of Eckankar
can cause in one's life.
The portrayal of the physical universe as a time wasting ashcan of the
cosmos, has I'm sure caused much anguish in Eckists who have tried to
resolve their desire for physical success against the urgings in the
teachings to not put any substantial effort or stock in things physical.
This terrible inner conflict occurs because the natural inborn desire and
tendency that soul has to immerse itself in the incredible myriad illusions
of the physical world, is short curcuited and repressed in favor of the Eck
sleigh ride to the total. What is overlooked that is of vital importance, is
the fact that we chose to come here into the physical to have an in-body
experience(IBE). The lords of Karma have not sent us plunging once again
into the physical, against our will, to pay off and balance our past
illusory dramas. We have elected to express here in this time-space arena of
our own free will, for the emotional impact and learning that comes from
complete engagement in the illusory circumstances of our longings. This is
how we learn, by contrasting this against the life we left, temporarily, in
the nameless world.
Desire is the divine propellent that moves and advances us quite
automatically into this lifetime as well as the situations that hold the
learning that we have chosen within it. Withdrawal from the physical
longings that we have, is a grave mistake, and instead of shortening our
incarnations in the physical as taught in Eckankar, actually compels us to
return to once again try to eat the sandwich of life that we turned down
because of the acceptance of anti-physical concepts.
The fear generated from the acceptance of some of the Eckankar concepts
runs deep, and was difficult for me to get rid of even after being out of it
for fifteen years. My finger hesitated over the left click button for a long
time before I sent my first post to this NG about a month ago. Actually I
saved it in my browser to send later and it was automatically sent when I
next opened it. I was surprised to see it posted when I logged on to A.R.E.
Nice to hear from you. You are loved, cherished, and supported in all your
desires and efforts in life by the source of life itself, as are all of us,
eckists or non-eckists alike.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Rich
You might want to take a look at this:
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm
In this book Doug clearly shows how *most* of what David Lane's says is
_not_ based in facts!:-) Take a look, you'll be surprised. Your not
the first that was fooled by Lane, nor will you be the last.
Just one example is that when pinned down recently to provide evidence
of how _much_ of Paul's words were actually previously written by
others, the most he could produce turned out to be a measly 1.4%!
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Galuuk
<< snip >>
Hmmm....I wonder which warmed over detractor this.....
Time will tell.....it always does. The script almost looks like LuvvyDuvvy...
We'll see....
Galuuk
<<< Troll by the
way believes in the eck masters, and says he has soul travelled with
Rebazar Tars. >>>
Dave, I don't want to deflate your balloon too fast or anything....but Lane
himself has admitted to having dream experiences with Rebezar Tarz.
gruendemann
spells it Troll.
So many trolls... so few bridges.
As for lane, well.... it's all in his head, remember? ;->
Chuck Stockdale
Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
Roger,
I, would like to quote the following pages from my copy of "With a Great
Master in India" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson, copyright 1971 (5th edition):
Pages 201-204; "Now prepare for the fourth stage, O soul, and catch the
sound. Cross the pass above the Hansni tunnel and enter the Rukmini tunnel,
where you will see a strange and beautiful mark, or structure; seeing which,
the surat(power to hear) and the nirat(power to see) both attain peace and
rest, satisfied. On the right side there are bright islands, and on the left
are many continents covered with palaces, appearing as if made of pearls,
having their top stories made of rubies and studded with emeralds and
diamonds. This innermost secret I have described.
Only the brave spirit may venture this far. I then saw the Bhanwar Gupha
mountain, approaching which I heard the Sohang Shabd. The sound emanating
from there is like a keen flute. Here the soul beholds the white sun above,
with immense light. The region is most beautiful and sweet and full of
light. The souls there live on the Sound Current as their food. Playing
about on the great maidan are groups of hansas, and along with them are many
devotees, sojourners in that region, on their way to Sach Khand.
Here are vast and innumerable planes and worlds, abounding with a variety of
creations, and inhabited by numberless devotees, living on the nectar of
nam. Kabir Sahib also mentions in this region eighty-eight thousand
continents, all set with beautiful palaces, as above described. This region
is truly the gateway to the mansion of the lord Sach Khand. It is the
vestibule to the Supreme Grand Division of Creation.
The approach to the Fourth Region is gaurded by a zone of such deep, dense
darkness that none but a pure Saint may ever cross it. Only he has the light
and power to cross it and to take his disciples with him. By his grace,
therefore, we have come thus far, and now let us enter the gateway of the
Supreme Lord of Sach Khand. He is the Great Father and the Lord of us all
and of all regions below him. He is boundless love and light. It is said by
both Kahir Sahib and Soami Ji that his brilliancy is so great, that even one
hair on his body(although there is no hair there) radiates a light equal to
that of many millions of suns combined. It is utterly beyond comprehension.
But now let us enter his region.
Region number five
Soami Ji has given a few hints concerning thiws region. We read: In the
fifth region is a fort-like place wherein is situated the throne of the King
of Kings. You should know him as the true King. The soul now advances to a
great and wonderful field, or park, the scenery of which is absolutely
indescribable. There is also a great resevoir, from below which flow
abundent streams of the most delicious nectar, and this nectar flows out
through large canals, to supply distant regions. Golden palaces are set in
open fields of silvery light. But the landscape is indescribable, and the
beauty of the hansas living there is incomprehensible, the brilliancy of
each one being equal to the combined light of sixteen suns and moons.
The soul then passes on up to the real entrance. The watchers by the gate
are the hansas. Here the Sahaj Surat asks the soul: "How have you managed to
reach this region?" The new-comer replies: "I came across a Saint and he
gave me knowldge of this region." Saying this, the soul then pushes on and
enjoys the darshan of Sat Nam, and rejoices with an exceeding great joy. A
voice then emanates from within the lotus, saying:" Who are you and what
purpose or object brings you here?" He answers, "I met the Sat Guru and he
gave me full instructions. Through his kindness I now have the privelege of
your darshan." From this darshan the soul derives immense pleasure. Sat
Purush then speaks of the mysteries of Alah Lok, and with his own powers and
love, he aids the soul to make further advance to the the still higher
regions.
Our traveller has now reached the highest Grand Division of Creation, the
region of immortality and Truth. While still in the lower regions of
Brahmand,he is always liable to return to earth, and to rebirth and death,
the wheel of the eighty-four. But when he reaches the pure regions of Sat
Lok, the first plane of which is called Sach Khand, there is no more return
to earth except as a redeemer. Here the student traveller enters upon the
full reward of his long and ardous course of training. He becomes the Saint
himself, and the mission his Guru is finished, so far as this journey is
concerned. But the soul has yet to travel over the most sublime and
beautiful part of his journey. Above Sach Khand there are three other
planes, or regions, of utterly inconceivanle splendor. But from here on, the
Great Father of Sach Khand takes over the responsibilty of guiding soul to
the end of his journey."
Does any of this sound familiar? I have just quoted from these pages
verbatim, and in the continuity that they were written.
You decide for yourself whether this was the primary source for the journey
described in "The Tigers Fang". Throughout Johnson's book, who's copyright
of the first printing, predates the "Tigers Fang", We see mentioned in this
book, possible orgins for the following words and concepts used in Eckankar:
The Shabd or sound current, Kal forces, Shamas Tabrez, Alakh Lok, Agam
Purusha, Mer Sumer and Kailash, Trikuti, Sahansdal Kanwal, Tisra Til, Anda,
Sach Khand, the traveller, Pinda, radiant form of the master, Sat Desh, Kal
Niranjan, Anand Yoga, the negative powers, Tulsi Das, Guru Nanak, Sat Yuga,
Kali Yuga, Anami, Second Grand Division, Third Grand Division, Banwhar Gupa,
Sat Nam.
Also the possible source for Twitchells's portrayal of earth as the ashcan
of the universes, (page 212 of "With a Great Master in India"):"This world
is a theater of pain and struggle and death, and it is necessarily imperfect
from the standpoint of our immediate happiness. So is a jail, a reformatory,
or a hospital, The fact is that this world is not, never was intended as a
place of human happiness. It was never meant to be so. The lord of the
region(Kal), himself being imperfect, finds it his chief business to keep
souls here as long as he can, and subject them to all manner of pain and
other evils, until they learn to seek a way out. And that was what he was
put in charge of this region for."
And further (pages 213 and 214): " If some people, well situated, think this
old world is a pretty good place to live in, it may be a wholesome thing for
them to know that this world at its best, when compared with even the lowest
plane above, is nothing more than a dirty out-house."
Reading "With a Great Master in India", gives me the distinct and
overwhelming impression that it, and other of Johnsons writings, were used
by Twitchell along with many other sources as a massive compilation and
birthing of the Teachings of Eckankar.
When I talked to a Sikh (Sikh religion) friend of mine who owns a perfume
shop in a shopping mall, and asked him if he had ever heard of Eckankar,he
got excited and told me that Ek-on-kar means one with god. The license plate
on his car read- Ekonkar.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Rich
> Roger,
>
> I, would like to quote the following pages from my copy of "With a Great
> Master in India" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson, copyright 1971 (5th edition):
<SNIP the inner trip>
> Does any of this sound familiar?
What's the point Chuck? This is _not_ a plagiarism. Are you saying
that Paul, or anyone else can't travel to similar areas as Johnson did?
Have you read Doug's book Chuck? What do you think about the fact that
only a very insignificant amount of what Paul wrote has similar words to
Johnson's?
Roger Haeske
Michael Wallace
Maybe Roger is actually telling the truth, but you are right about the
person who focusses solely on their "inner" life so that their outer
existence falls to pieces... Very typical of the ECKist of the 1970's
Still it bugs me how you get 11 years between 1986 and 1987 <G>
Love
Michael
"Len" <sv77...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8pobjh$f2v$1...@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com...
> I agree, sounds like someone who truly had been in Eckankar from 1986
until
> 1987.
>
> Len
>
> "Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote in message
> news:8poaka$1...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net...
Michael Wallace
If the fellow is genuine, I hope he does look up Doug's in depth look at the
wobble and foibles in David Lanes post adolescent work.
Love
Michael
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:39BFEB...@aloha.net...
> Aloha Roger,
>
> You might want to take a look at this:
>
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm
>
> In this book Doug clearly shows how *most* of what David Lane's says is
> _not_ based in facts!:-) Take a look, you'll be surprised. Your not
> the first that was fooled by Lane, nor will you be the last.
>
> Just one example is that when pinned down recently to provide evidence
> of how _much_ of Paul's words were actually previously written by
> others, the most he could produce turned out to be a measly 1.4%!
>
> --
> o
> |
> ~/|
> _/ |\
> / | \
> -/ | \
> _ /____|___\_
> (___________/
> Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
gruendemann
zorch@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com
Can you please post more information about this book you mentioned called
"Awakened Imagination". I have never heard of it and I would like to find
out where I could get a copy.
Thanks,
Chuck
gruendemann
I've taken a rather quick look at the books that Neville penned and it
would seem that the religious system of understanding you are looking for
is right there in one author! Roger, great insight on your part.... What a
golden moment for the two of you.
Neville wrote several books that appear to focus on getting what you
really want out of life without having to lean or ask from anyone. Simple
how to books on the positive use of the imagination.
As for the copying of Awakened Imagination, are you sure that this was
Paul? [It seemed that darwin had written a book of the same title. It is
out of print. I found that rather interesting.] Do you have any quotes on
this, or are you simply saying that the process is the same? I'd be
interested in what you have to say on this matter. Especially since there
were so many books that had such information in the early 1950's. This was
a time of preparing for a shift in consciousness that leaped forward in
the 1960's. Making your wishes come true, and assuming the feeling of your
wish fulfilled is hardly a new idea. Ever read Dale Carnegie?
Wouldn't it be strange to find out that Johnson read Nevilles book, and
then Paul read Johnsons book, and well..... no, that's just too
twisted.... to imagine that so many spiritual writers were just copying
ideas from one another. Gee, almost sounds like philosophy, only for the
ego of the ownership of ideas, of the creative flow is so unrealistically
naive on this newsgroup. Too bad that no one seems to believe that all
these ideas start somewhere....... like in the heart of God. But no,
that's too lame an excuse for modern man and his wonder brain. <sigh>
Chuck Stockdale
Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>Chuck Stockdale wrote:
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> I, would like to quote the following pages from my copy of "With a Great
>> Master in India" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson, copyright 1971 (5th edition):
>
><SNIP the inner trip>
>
>
>> Does any of this sound familiar?
>
>What's the point Chuck? This is _not_ a plagiarism. Are you saying
>that Paul, or anyone else can't travel to similar areas as Johnson did?
>
>Have you read Doug's book Chuck? What do you think about the fact that
>only a very insignificant amount of what Paul wrote has similar words to
>Johnson's?
>
Chuck responded:
Rich,
I did not have the time to post the entire passage from the book "With a
Great Master in India" which relates to this inner Journey that Paul
Twitchell claims to have taken in the book "The Tigers Fang". The majority
of this section, it seems, has been used by Twitchell in his book in the
exact sequence and using the exact words with minor changes.
When I was in Eckankar, I was so enthralled with the "Tigers Fang", that I
practically had it memorized word for word. As I read Johnsons book, I saw
how easily Twitchell lifted large blocks of text in sequence, from the book
and changed minor things that would possibly give him legal trouble down the
road. For example at the end of the Journey in WAGMII, the traveller arrives
in Alakh Lok, the region of the nameless one, or Radha Soami. He mentions
most everything except Radha Soami for obvious reasons.
There is a succession of 14 pages that make up the description of this inner
journey. Twitchell has used the entire 14 pages in sequence, with exact
wording being copied in the majority of it.
When I started posting on this NG most recently, I had my doubts about
whether Paul Twitchell could have compiled and plagiarized his way through
the entire manufacturing of the path of Eckankar, now I can actually get my
head around the process and see how someone with the creative writing talent
that he had, could pull it off. I think I could actually do it myself if
this were 1965, and I were so inclined.
I saw the original Orion and Fate magazine copies of Twitchells articles, in
fact these were the first things I read prior to getting into Eckankar
because thats about all there was available. "In My Soul I AM Free" and
shortly afterwards, "The Tigers Fang". Twitchell did swap the names of the
masters in the Eckankar books, as well as changing and modifying the
cosmology as he went along.
I now believe from my own research, that Twitchell copied a very significant
amount of stuff from Johnson, and as time goes on, we will probably see more
sources uncovered in books such as the one Roger Haeske has mentioned.
I have read what Doug has done thus far, and I am actually becoming more
convinced as a result of his work, that Twitchell was an unusually talented
compiler, and a deft plagiarist.
There was a cult started in Dallas, TX, by a charasmatic women who claimed
to do astral travel, read auras, help people with karma burnoff etc. After
small articles about her appeared in local newspapers and magazines, people
started to seek her out and she rapidly developed a following. There were
descriptions of abounding love at their meetings and this women was elevated
quite quickly in the estimation of her followers.
I can now see through the observation of other groups such as Heavens Gate
and Jonestown, how this sort of thing can spread and feed upon itself
exponentially to create a spiritual movement. The great spiritual need that
people have to feel connected to their source is galvanized, harnessed and
directed along certain lines by people who know how to work with these
factors.
The spiritual exercises that Twitchell developed may have had their orgin in
Johnsons writings for example on page 189 of WAGMII we read: "His first
exercise is to concentrate his mind at the Tisra Til, or third eye. He must
pull in his wandering thoughts, restrain his restless mind, and hold it
steadily at one point. The mind is often compared to a monkey hopping
around. But it must be brought to a standstill, to absolute rest at the
given center. In due time, if the process is complete, the individual spirit
current or substance is withdrawn from the body, first at the lower
extremities which become feelingless, and then from the rest of the body.
The process is identical with that which takes place at the time of death,
only this is voluntary, while that of death is involuntary.
The whole spiritual being gathers at the given center, or focus, its powers
increasing because of concentration. Eventually, he is able to pierce the
veil that intervenes-which in reality is "not thicker than the wing of a
butterfly"-and he opens what is called the "Tenth Door" and steps out into a
new world."
I reason that Twitchell found that the exercises worked to a degree and thus
gave his students an alteration or expansion of conciousness even though he
didn't originate them. This gave him more credibility in the minds of his
followers and he experienced an accelarated proliferation of his works as
people gravitated to him in a magnitude commensurate with his claims of
being the Godman on earth.
By the time he met Brad Steiger, I think he had already pretty much gotten
his story straight as far as the way he wanted to present it to the world. I
think it was already tested to a degree from the reactions of his small band
of initial followers.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Chuck Stockdale
Haeske mentioned called "Awakened Imagination":
The Bodhi Tree Bookstore (used book section) 1-800-825-9798
They also have copies of some of Julian P. Johnsons books such as "With A
Great Master In India".
Chuck
the_trol...@my-deja.com
Chuck! o
> >Troll |
> > ~/|
> > _/ |\
> > / | \
> > -/ | \
> > _ /____|___\_
> > (___________/
> >Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
>
maha
> Chuck,
>
> You can get the book from DeVorss Publications. They actually have many
> interesting spiritual books. Other books I think Paul got his ideas from,
> though I don't know if he plagiarized from these are by Thomas Troward.
You
> can order his best ones, combined into one book. They are called "The
> Edinburgh and Dore Lectures on Mental Science. The number for DeVorss is
> 1-800-843-5743. You can ask and they will send you a catalog. Or just
order
> these books directly.
>
> One of my favorite of all chapters in the Eck works is from the book "The
> Far Country," which has recently gone out of print.
> (I wonder why.) That chapter that I like is # 11 "The Sugmad of Being."
That
> chapter was taken almost entirely from the book the "Awakened
Imagination."
> The reason this is so important is that prior to me knowing about the book
> Awakened, I thought it was Rebazar Tarzs dictating these truths to Paul
> Twitchell. So how can I trust Paul Twitchell and that Rebazar Tarzs
exists,
> if he obviously plagiarized from this book Awakened. I would know because
> I've read the chapter Sugmad of Being about 20 times or more. If one
> compares that chapter with that book it is obvious Paul copied directly
from
> that book and replaced Christ with some Eck Masters names.
>
> I know this info doesn't bother some Eckists. But this means Paul was
being
> very deceptive and probably made up the Eck Masters. If the Eck Masters
are
> made up, then to me, there is no such thing as Eckankar
Thanks to Chuck and Roger for telling us about this new evidence of Paulji's
plagiarism.
Rich
> I remember the mindset when I was in
> Eckankar. There is a sense of a war going on between the Eck and the Kal and
> the valiant warriors of the Eck are insuring their triumphant welcome into
> heaven by their various services including the attempt to neutralize
> postings by ex-eckists on this NG.
Right, when you were in Eckankar so many years ago, you adopted that
mindset. IMO it's a spiritually immature POV, or better and not the
best model of duality, and most grow out of it. Just as most all Eckists
today, none of the Eckists who post here have this "warrior" mindset.
However, because of the deception, attacks and abuse that is doled out
by the detractors, many here have become very skeptical when newbies
arrive. Too many in the past have just been the same old trolls in
disguise, with the same old agenda.
<SNIP>
> The portrayal of the physical universe as a time wasting ashcan of the
> cosmos, has I'm sure caused much anguish in Eckists who have tried to
> resolve their desire for physical success against the urgings in the
> teachings to not put any substantial effort or stock in things physical.
That term is rarely heard in Eckankar today. You are out of touch
Chuck.
So many of those that come here are criticizing the Eckankar of twenty
years ago.
> This terrible inner conflict occurs because the natural inborn desire and
> tendency that soul has to immerse itself in the incredible myriad illusions
> of the physical world, is short curcuited and repressed in favor of the Eck
> sleigh ride to the total.
Why did you choose to repress it Chuck? I didn't. I'd guess that you
interpreted the teachings of Eckankar different than I did. Whose
responsibility is that?
> What is overlooked that is of vital importance, is
> the fact that we chose to come here into the physical to have an in-body
> experience(IBE). The lords of Karma have not sent us plunging once again
> into the physical, against our will, to pay off and balance our past
> illusory dramas.
>From AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A MODERN PROPHET, by Harold Klemp, pg. 15:
"The primal seed for each incarnation is under the umbrella of
destiny, known to us also as past-life karma. On a practical level,
genetic, cultural, and social elements combine to determine Soul's
position in this world. For people on the lower end of the survival
scale, the Lord of Karma alone chooses the time and place of rebirth.
By definition the survival scale is a yardstick of one's can-do
instincts. But karmic placement does allow some people a voice in
their place of birth. These are the individuals near the top of the
scale, who are always creative in some way--usually cheerful upbeat
people. Because of gains made in past-life unfoldment, they have won a
say in choosing their present incarnation."
"Destiny can be thought of as the equipment, talents, or gifts which a
person brings to this life. It remains for each to use them wisely."
"Even though the idea of destiny, or fate, is taboo in many Western
circles today, it is a fact of spiritual life. Perhaps objections
arise because people are confused about what it really is. Destiny
controls the conditions at birth. Much of what an individual does
after that is an exercise of free will. Free will may overcome the
conditions of destiny, but first one must awaken his creative talents,
through which he can then reshape his spiritual and material life."
"To sum up, fate governs the conditions at a person's birth; free will
allows a choice as to how he will move within and beyond them."
> Withdrawal from the physical
> longings that we have, is a grave mistake, and instead of shortening our
> incarnations in the physical as taught in Eckankar, actually compels us to
> return to once again try to eat the sandwich of life that we turned down
> because of the acceptance of anti-physical concepts.
Interesting... so contrary to what Eckankar teaches, you propose that
succumbing to the passions of the mind rather than learning to become
detached, will free you from returning for more lifetimes? :-O
--
o
Rich
> Thanks to Chuck and Roger for telling us about this new evidence of Paulji's
> plagiarism.
LOL Hearsay evidence. Post it here and maybe we can boost the count up
to 1.5% Otherwise is just another Laneism.
Roger Haeske
the Tigers Fang.
Because he copied it from other authors.
Roger
Roger Haeske
You can get the book from DeVorss Publications. They actually have many
interesting spiritual books. Other books I think Paul got his ideas from,
though I don't know if he plagiarized from these are by Thomas Troward. You
can order his best ones, combined into one book. They are called "The
Edinburgh and Dore Lectures on Mental Science. The number for DeVorss is
1-800-843-5743. You can ask and they will send you a catalog. Or just order
these books directly.
One of my favorite of all chapters in the Eck works is from the book "The
Far Country," which has recently gone out of print.
(I wonder why.) That chapter that I like is # 11 "The Sugmad of Being." That
chapter was taken almost entirely from the book the "Awakened Imagination."
The reason this is so important is that prior to me knowing about the book
Awakened, I thought it was Rebazar Tarzs dictating these truths to Paul
Twitchell. So how can I trust Paul Twitchell and that Rebazar Tarzs exists,
if he obviously plagiarized from this book Awakened. I would know because
I've read the chapter Sugmad of Being about 20 times or more. If one
compares that chapter with that book it is obvious Paul copied directly from
that book and replaced Christ with some Eck Masters names.
I know this info doesn't bother some Eckists. But this means Paul was being
very deceptive and probably made up the Eck Masters. If the Eck Masters are
made up, then to me, there is no such thing as Eckankar.
Roger
Galuuk
It was the end of my junior year in college. It was the last scheduled
class of my course in English Romantic Poetry. The professor had just returned
our final term papers and was giving us a final farewell speech about the
beauty of Romantic Poetry. I had written my paper on a poem by Samuel Taylor
Coleridge and was skimming through the prof's notes when he bagan to tell us
that romantic poetry could best be exemplified by Coleridge's works. And lo
and behold he began talking about the same poem I had written about.
Now, you have to understand that this professor's lectures were normally
as dry as a mastadon bone in Death Valley, but this little talk of his was full
of passion, vigor, and conviction. He had often told us that he had read and
graded our papers late at night, sometimes till 3:00 AM and he had just
finished this group the night before even later than that. It was therefore
somewhat understandable that he appeared a little delirious.
But what happened next was astounding. As he began speaking of the poem I
was looking through my paper, which was about ten typewritten pages long. At
first I remembered writing something about what he was talking about, but then
I noticed that what I had written was exactly what he was speaking about. He
went down through one of my paragrapghs concept for concept, idea for idea. I
nudged the girl sitting beside me and she began to read along with me. This
process went on for four typewritten pages; paragraph for paragraph, sentence
for sentence, and at times word for word. Page after page after page. He
finished with my summation almost word for word. The girl next to me just
stared. I was flabergasted. Since we had never really discussed that poem
much during the semester and since everything in that paper had come out of my
head and had not been researched, the only conclusion that was feasible was
that the professor had somehow absorbed the information in my paper on a
subconcious level and was regurgitating it just as he had seen it. Because of
the time factor there is no possible way he could have memorized it....not that
much, no way.
Besides if it had been that good he would have mostly likely given me a
"A". I got a "B"....the girl beside me got an "A". She got a charge out of
that.
The only conclusion that could be drawn was that the information in that
paper so struck the professor that he consumed it just as it was written.
Perhaps this happend because it was so perfect(I doubt that) or that he was so
tired when he was reading it, or some reason that I don't know of, but one
thing is for sure, it did happen.
This wasn't my first encounter with a complete and total transfer of
information. On another occasion a transfer of information was made, not from
writings, but from telepathic and/or spiritual means.
I had just been introduced to ECKANKAR a couple months earlier when I had
met a friend of mine for dinner. We talked for several hours after dinner and
one of the things I talked about was my new involvement in ECKANKAR. The ECK
had made quite an impression on me in a few short months and as I spoke to her
I spoke with great feeling and emotion.
Well, the next day, I received my second month's discourses. When I
opened them up to read I was shocked. Everything in the discourse was exactly
as I had described the ECK teachings to my friend the night before. And I mean
exactly. Par-agraph after paragraph, sentence after sentence. It was the most
amazing thing I had ever seen. Since the only ECK book I had read was by Brad
Steiger and only a small portion of that book had Paul Twitchell quoted, I had
no recourse but to admit to myself that the "inner teachings" that are spoken
of in ECKANKAR were exactly as advertised. Believe me, I went through
everything I had read on ECKANKAR and nothing even resembled what was in that
discourse.
Yet everything in that discourse had already been "transferred" to me.
Since that time, which has been a couple decades ago, that same phenomenon has
occured to me countless times. Truth, when pure, can be perceived by anyone
with the heart and mind to do so. Sometimes that truth is derived from the
inner worlds, sometimes it can be transferred from person to person---mind to
mind, if you will. And when it transfers it does so word for word in many
cases.
Two different people can see the truth on the inner worlds at different
periods of time or one person can pick it up from another through a casual
reading and regurgitate it word for word at some later date. Both are possible
and I count myself as very fortunate to have experienced both. I've been the
recipient of such information(as in the case of the ECK discouse) and I've had
information assimilated from me and dictated word for word by someone else(as
was the case with my Enlish Professor).
The truly remarkable thing about this is that it also demonstrates another
amazing facet of the ECK teachings.....that an individual can acquire truth and
can never be shaken from it because he or she knows it to be true. No one is
required to "believe" in anything or anyone. The truth concerning the inner
worlds, the Holy Spirit, the Mahanta, God are all available to anyone who
wishes to examine them.
Regardless of what someones theory may suggest, regardless of which
accusations are made, regardless of what outrageous claims abound......the
truth remains the same....unwaivering, eternal, humble, and pure......and
accessible to anyone who wishes to know.
And I know.......
Chuck Stockdale
"Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote:
Chuck responded:
This is very interesting. Today I ordered four of Neville's books from the
Bodhi Tree Bookstore "Awakened Imagination", Your Face Is Your Fortune",
"Feeling Is The Secret", and "The Law And The Promise". I'm looking forward
to reading them especially "Awakened Imagination", because "the Far Country"
was one of my favorite Eck books and I still have my 1971 copyright edition.
I too really liked chapter 11, especially pages (219-228) where Rebezar Tarz
is talking about imagination as the key to understanding life and the
mechanics of human experience. I'm sure I read that chapter at least 50
times over the years. It is very concentrated and powerful information.
Thanks for the info on the other books as I will be checking them out as
well.
Warm regards,
Chuck
>
>
Len
When an individual is ready to leave a group, at times I have noticed
that there occurs a deconstruction of the framework of that group,
and all the ideas, thoughts, manifestations which that individual
experienced
while a member.
Interesting that Chuck is reorganizing principals of the teachings
of Eckankar to better suite his current paradigm. Roger has discovered
information outside of Eckankar, which strengthens his resolve for
leaving Eckankar.
I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, not at all. I've done it many
times myself. I think that taking another road, maybe less traveled is what
drives soul to gain what is necessary to continue its journey.
Len
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:39C1C5...@aloha.net...
> Roger Haeske wrote:
>
> > One of my favorite of all chapters in the Eck works is from the book
"The
> > Far Country," which has recently gone out of print.
> > (I wonder why.) That chapter that I like is # 11 "The Sugmad of Being."
That
> > chapter was taken almost entirely from the book the "Awakened
Imagination."
> > The reason this is so important is that prior to me knowing about the
book
> > Awakened, I thought it was Rebazar Tarzs dictating these truths to Paul
> > Twitchell. So how can I trust Paul Twitchell and that Rebazar Tarzs
exists,
> > if he obviously plagiarized from this book Awakened. I would know
because
> > I've read the chapter Sugmad of Being about 20 times or more. If one
> > compares that chapter with that book it is obvious Paul copied directly
from
> > that book and replaced Christ with some Eck Masters names.
> >
> > I know this info doesn't bother some Eckists. But this means Paul was
being
> > very deceptive and probably made up the Eck Masters. If the Eck Masters
are
> > made up, then to me, there is no such thing as Eckankar.
>
> Roger, if you have not read Doug's book you are missing out on the first
> real explanation of how Paul came to do these things.
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm
>
>
> And then there is this:
>
> "Difficulties of Becoming the Living ECK Master"
> by Paul Twitchell p.98 - 100
>
> This portion of the book was transcribed from private discussions
> recorded on audio tape. Paul had been speaking about others and now
> himself who have read and scanned thousands of books.
>
>
> "I have proven this out myself because when I was in Seattle I read
> about 35,000 books, or I don't say that I particularly read them word
> for word. I went thru 35,000 books of every subject you can know
> which built me a background for a certain bit of the work that I
> have today."
>
> "Then also, when I was in Washington, D.C. for several years, I read
> about 15,000 books there in the Congressional Library, the subjects
> that I wanted, and other places in New York. I may have read 5,000
> or something like that when I was there for one year in 1946. Well,
> what I'm trying to say is that this book knowledge builds a great pool
> of intellectual knowledge and anyone who has a recall is able to begin
> looking at this knowledge when he is not able to have a call-up of the
> wisdom knowledge. All I'm saying, it's all stored there in the
> background, and there is no use in carrying a book around with you all
> the time. All that one does, he places it in the background, then he
> can get a recall on a lot of things that he could have if he'd never
> gone into this type of reading."
>
> "Hope you can see and understand this. Now, on the other hand, he has
> what we call the wisdom pool of the divine knowledge and as long as he
> can maintain his position at the heights, he can always call upon the
> wisdom pool. But we don't always maintain the heights of being at the
> top of the spiritual ladder all the time. We go up and we go down on
> this so when we're down, we can call upon this knowledge that we have
> had here and for some reason, all that back in the subconscious and all
> that which is in the wisdom pool also, it seems to come through when
> it's necessary to come through and there is no effort to make a recall
> on it."
>
> "I've done this hundreds of times, and on stage, or when typing on a
> manuscript or something. And in conversation with people or when I
> need it, certain ideas come up, I call on both and both will furnish
> the whole when it should be necessary."
>
>
> The following literary references appear in the writings of Paul
> Twitchell and were compiled by Elizabeth Boyles during her graduate
> study at UNC-CH in English.
>
>
>
>
> AUTHOR TITLE
>
> Abegg The Mind of East Asia
> Adams Astorlogy For Every Man
> Adams Astrology You Place in the Sun
> Adams Astrology Your Place in the Stars
> Adams Bowl of Heaven
> Aeschylus poetic conseption of one's view of "soul"
> Akilananda Hindu Philosophy
> Alger The Little Flowers of St. Francis
> Allen All Things Made Possible Through Prayer
> Allen As A Man Thinketh
> Allen Kierkegaard Life & Thought
> Anderson Magic in Your Mind
> Andrea Mystics At Prayer
> Apollonius of Tyana incoporates ECK principles
> Aquinas ECK Principles
> Armitage Desert & Stars
> Arnold's Trans. Bhagavad-Gita
> Atkinson Advance Course in Yoga
> Aurobindo Life Divine
> Aurobindo current mystical writings
> Austin, Mary Everyman's Genius
> Austin, Mary Prayer
> Avalon Serpent Power
> Bach They Have Found a Faith
> Bach Will To Believe
> Bacon, Francis mysticism in his writings
> Bailey Letters on Occult Meditation
> Bailey Soul and Its Mechanism
> Bailey Treatise on Cosmic Fire (2 vols)
> Bailey Treatise on White Magic
> Baldwin, Monica I Jump Over The Wall To Freedom
> Beck Story of Oriental Power
> Beck Way of Power
> Beck, L. Adam fine historical novels (used past time track)
> Beever St. Joan of Arc
> Behrand Your Invisible Power
> Benchley, Robert humor -- used Socratic Irony Method
> Bennett Concerning Subud
> Bennett, Arnold (an Order of the Golden Dawn writer)
> Berdyaer, N. Freedom and Spirit (Paul quoted from)
> Bergson, Henri Mind Energy
> Bergson, Henri The Creative Mind
> Bernard Heaven Lies Within Us
> Bernard Penthouse of Gods
> Bernays Woman Is Many Lives
> Besant Ancient Wisdom
> Besant Esoteric Christianity
> Besant Fourteen Lessons in Yoga
> Besant Introduction to Yoga
> Besant Riddle of Life
> Besant & Leadbeater Thought Forms
> Bester, Alfred Disappearing Act," Star Sci. Fiction Stories #2
> Bittle Saint A Day
> Blake, William "Jerusalem" (Hall of Los)
> Blake, William his great metaphysical poems
> Blavatsky Isis Unveiled
> Blavatsky The Secret Doctrine (occult knowledge)
> Blavatsky The Veil of Isis
> Blavatsky Voice of God
> Blavatsky Voice of Silence
> Boehme, Jacob wrote recognized classics (re. spiritual subjects)
> Bolith Twelve Against the Gods
> Bragdon Yoga for You
> Briet Writer Observes
> Brown Indian & Christ Miracles of Walking on Water
> Brunton Discover Yourself
> Brunton Indian Ohilosphy and Modern Culture
> Brunton Quest of Overself
> Brunton Spiritual Crisis of Man
> Brunton, Paul Message at Arjuna (e.g. master in a trance state)
> Buber, Martin Thou & I
> Bucke, R.M., MD Cosmic Consciousness
> Buckham Inner World
> Buddha "The Three Baskets" (esoteric knowledge)
> Bunyan Pilgrim's Progress
> Butler Exploring the Psychic World
> Cannon Power Within
> Cannon, Alexander * (his books -- about the Twaji)
> Carpenter & Barnes Psychology of Poet Shelley
> Carrington Mental Telepathy Explained
> Carrington Psychic World
> Carstair Twice Born
> Castiglioni Adventures of the Mind
> Cerminara World Within
> Churchward Lost Continent of MU
> Clark Man Who Tapped Secrets of Universe
> Clarke, Arthur "The Nine Billion Names of God" (short story)
> Clymer Occult Science
> Collier Law of higher Potential
> Collier Secret of Ages
> Corelli other novels (also) based on soul travel
> Corelli, Maria Ardath
> Coster Yoga & Western Philosophy
> Coue Better & Better Everyday
> Cranston Faith is the Answer
> Cranston Miracle at Lourdes
> Crowley, Alistair (another Order of Golden Dawn writer)
> Curie Madame Curie
> Curtiss Message of Aquiria
> Curtiss Personal Survival
> Curtiss Realms of Living Dead
> Curtiss Templer of Silence
> Curtiss key to Universe
> Daniel-Rops Heroes of God
> Daniels Never too Late to Love
> Dante poetic conception of what is "soul"
> Dasputa Yoga As Philosophy & Religion
> David-Neel With Mystics and Magicians in Tibet
> Davids Buddhism
> Davis Time, Space, Circumstances
> Davis, Andrew Jackson (a great soul traveler: wrote books)
> Devi Yoga for Americans
> Dickens David Copperfield
> Dingwall The American Woman
> Ditcher Strategy of Desire
> Dowling, Levi Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ
> Du Nouy Human Destiny
> Dudson St. Ignatius of Loyola
> Dunne Serial Universe
> Dunne Yoga Made Easy
> Dunne, J.W. An Experiment in Time
> Durant Story of Philosophy
> Eastman Great Companions
> Eckhart, Johannes mysticism
> Eckler Life of Thomas Paine
> Eddy Science & Health
> Edsall World of Psychic Phenomena
> Eliot, T.S. attempted to breakdown inertia in individual
> Ellis, Havelock Dance of Life
> Ellis, Havelock his biography
> Emerson ECKANKAR principles
> Estabrooks, G.H. Hypnotism
> Evans-Wentz Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa
> Evans-Wentz Tibetan Book of the Dead
> Evans-wentz Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrine
> Fairchild Women, Society & Sex
> Fillmore Talks on Truth
> Foster Life of St. Thomas Aquinas
> Fox, George Journals
> Freehof Stormers of Heaven
> Frost Basic Teachings of Greek Philosophers
> Gaines Magic of Breath Power
> Gandhi Gospel of Selfless Action
> Garrett Adventures in the Supernormal
> Geminini Many Mansions (a good study in karmic law)
> Gibran The Prophet
> Gifford The Evil Eye
> Goldsmith Practicing The Presence
> Gordon Minister to Millions
> Grant Secret Sayings of Jesus
> Greeg Self Beyond Yourself
> Gurney, Podmore, and Meyers Phantasms of the Living (re. cases of
> projection)
> Guthall Color Healing
> Hafiz writings
> Hall Healing, The Divine Art
> Hall Lectures on Ancient Philosophy
> Hall Man, Grand Symbol of Universe
> Hamblin Dynamic Thought
> Hanson Four Brontes
> Hanson The Noble Savage
> Harding Magic Fire
> Hart, Prof. Hornell Journal of the American Society for Psychical
> Research 1954 (projection cases)
> Heard, etc. Vedanta for Western World
> Hemingway attempted to break down inertia in individuals
> Henley, Wm. Invictus
> Hermes Trigmegistus The Vision of Hermes
> Hesoid lit. conception of the soul
> Holmes Creative Mind
> Holmes Science of the Mind
> Homer lit. conception of the soul
> Huai-nan-Tzu (he recorded a no. of mystical writings)
> Hubbard Self-Analysis
> Hudson Law of Psychic Phenomena
> Huxley Perennial Philosophy
> Ingelese History and Power of the Mind
> James, William Varieties of Religious Expereince (yardstick)
> Jastron Wish of Wisdom
> Jean, Sir James The Mysterious Universe
> Jeans Universe Around Us
> John of Patmos Revelation
> Johnson Imprisoned Splendor
> Johnson Watcher on the Hill
> Jones Abundant Living
> Jones Christ of Indian Road
> Jung Interpretation of Nature and Psychic
> Kabir writings
> Keyes Land of Stones and Saints
> Keys Theresa
> Kipling, Rudyard "The Far Country"
> Knox Autobiography of St. Theresa of Lixieux
> Koran Meaning of Glorious
> Krishna holy writings
> Lao-Tze ECK principles
> Lao-Tzu Tao Teh Ching (The Way of Life)
> Le Vasseur "a societal Earth-Mover" -- P.T.
> Leadbetter, W.C. books re. astral world (a Blavatsky disciple)
> Levi, Eliaphas amazing books; Essenes derivative
> Lewis Elmer Gantry
> Lewis Main Street
> LinYutang Importance of Living
> LinYutang Wisdom of China & India
> Lincoln Gettysburg Address (free verse poetry)
> Lindler The Non-Conformist (sociology)
> London, Jack The Star Rover
> Lynd, Robert Middletown (soc.)
> Lynd, Robert Middletown in Transition (soc.)
> Madame Guyon (mysticism) writings
> Manion In My Mind's Eye
> Mann, Stella 1-3 very good books about the Law of Love
> Marcus Aurelius Meditations
> Mathison Faiths, Cults, Sects of America
> Meill Makers of Modern Mind
> Melvin Citizen Tom Paine
> Melvin St. Anthony & His Times
> Menninger Human Mind
> Merton, Thomas The Seeds of Contemplation
> Merton, Thomas any of his books after the first
> Mills, C. Wright expert on class structure in U.S. (any books)
> Mo Ti (terrific Chinese mystic")
> Mohammed The Koran
> Moore Unicorn
> Moses ben Shem Tob Zohar (Cabala) Take objectively.
> Mukurji Spiritual Consciousness
> Muldoon Case for Astral Projection
> Muller Six Systems of Indian Philosophy
> Neville Awakened Imagination
> Neville Power of Awareness
> Neville any of his other books
> Nevin Making of a Priest
> Nickhalanda Vivekananda
> Nietzche Thus Spake Zarasthustra
> Nutting Lawrence of Arabia
> O'Brien Giants of Earth
> O'Hara, Mary Son of Adam Wyngate
> O'Neill Prodigal Genius
> Ouspensky (Efforts of George Gurdjieff)
> Ouspensky New Model of the Universe
> Packard Status Seekers
> Packard The Hidden Persuaders
> Paine Age of Reason
> Pangangelis Yoga Sutras
> Paramahansa Yogananda Autobiography of a Yogi (re. out-of-body)
> Payne, Robert Holy Fire
> Payne, Robert The Holy Sword
> Pelley The Golden Scripts
> Philo Dweller on Two Planets
> Pierson George Muller
> Pike, Albert any books
> Plato Phaedo (Plato's most imp. work re. separtion of soul from body)
> Plotinus (mystical writings)
> Ponlain, R.P. Mystic Experiences of Mediaval Saints (St. Xavier)
> Pope, Alexander Poems -- social ridicule and satire
> Powers Dynamic Thinking
> Prabavananda Eternal Companion
> Prabavananda & Isherwood Crest Jewel of Discrimination
> Puharich, Dr. Andrija Sacred Mushroom
> Ramacharaka Life Beyond Death
> Ramacharaka Mystic Christianity
> Reiss Nijinsky
> Rhine Reach of Mind
> Richardson The Great Psychological Crime
> Richter Mountain on Desert
> Rittenhouse Amazing Nellie Blyth
> Rogers Hints to Students of Occult
> Rogers, Will (used Socratic Irony)
> Rolland Life of Ramakrishna
> Roof Journeys on Razor Edge Path
> Rostand Cyrano de Bergerac
> Rousseau Confessions, etc. (simplicity)
> Rumi, Jalal-din The Reed of God
> Rumi, Jalal-din other writings
> Russell Message of Divine Illiad
> Sabatier St. Francis
> Sackville-West Eagle & Dove
> Santayana philosophy
> Sartre, Jean-Paul attempted to breakdown inertia in individual
> Saul The Hostile Wind
> Saul Thoreau
> Sayers Mind of the Maker
> Schoenberner Inside Story of an Outsider
> Seabrook Witchcraft
> Sen Ts'an Trust in the Heart
> Sensaki Buddhism & Zen
> Shaftsbury Other Mind
> Shakespeare poet's conseption of the soul
> Shang Yang The Shang Chu Shu -- Book of Lord Shang
> Shaw, G. Bernard preface to the play St. Joan
> Sheean The Indigo Bunting
> Sherman Adventure in Thinking
> Sherman How to Use Power of Prayer
> Sherman Know Your Own Mind
> Sherman Thoughts Through Space
> Sherman Your Key To Happiness
> Shinn Secret Door to Success
> Shinn The Game of Life and How to Play It
> Sigstestd Swedenborg Epic
> Singh, Sardar Seva The Sar Bachan (Sound Current teachings)
> Sitwell English Eccentrics
> Skarin Secrets of Eternity
> Socrates mysticism
> Spalding Life and Teachings of Masters of Far East (4 vols.)
> Sprigger Strange Life of August Strindberg
> St. Augustine City of God
> St. John Gospel of St. John (Gnosticism)
> St. John of the Cross (mysticism) poems
> St. John of the Cross The Dark Night of the Soul
> St. Paul ECK principles
> St. Paul II Corinthians (re. out-of-body projection)
> Stone Lust for Life
> Strindberg, August his plays (antipathy to the materialistic world)
> Stromberg Soul of Universe
> Strong Letters of Scattered Brotherhood
> Sugrue There is a River
> Swift Gulliver's Travels (satire)
> Swift Tale of a Tub (satire)
> Symonds Alistiar Crowley
> Symonds Lady With Magic Eyes
> Tabriz, Shamus-I writings
> Tagore, Rabindranath current mystical literature
> Talbot Saint Among Hurons
> Tao Sheng (quoted from -- P.T.)
> Tennyson Sir Galahad
> Terhune Across the Line
> Terhune Super Women
> Thoreau emphasized SIMPLICITY in writings
> Tomlin Great Philosophers (Eastern World)
> Towne How To Concentrate
> Trine In Tune With the Infinite
> Troward Bible Mystery and Meaning
> Troward Hidden Power
> Troward Law & Word
> Tulsi Das writings
> Ulanov Tiberius Caesar
> Unset Catherine of Sienna
> Valmiki Ramayana (poem)
> Van Doran Swift
> Van Passen Crown of Life
> Venlen, T. Theory of the Leiisure Class
> Vyasa Mahabhavata (collected by Vyasa)
> Waite, A.E. (Order of the Golden Dawn writer)
> Wallace Square Pegs
> Walsh St. Teresa of Avila
> White, William The Organization Man
> Whitman, Walt poems
> Wilson Sunlit Way
> Wilson, Colin The Outsider
> Wood Glorious Presence
> Wood Great Systems of Yoga
> Yale What Vedanta Means to Me
> Yang Chu (writings re. Yang Chu's Sermons)
> Yeats A Vision
> Yeats poetry (Order of Golden Dawn writer)
> Yeats-Brown Yoga Explained
> York Patience Worth
> Yugstwar Holy Science
> Zoroaster ECK principles
> de Beauvoir Second Sex
> du Maurier, George Peter Ibbetson
> poets in general good study of imagination
maha
Another chapter of Paulji's spiritual journey bites the dust! <G>
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:39C1B1...@aloha.net...
> Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> >
> > Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
> > >What's the point Chuck? This is _not_ a plagiarism. Are you saying
> > >that Paul, or anyone else can't travel to similar areas as Johnson did?
> > >
> > >Have you read Doug's book Chuck? What do you think about the fact that
> > >only a very insignificant amount of what Paul wrote has similar words
to
> > >Johnson's?
> > >
> > Chuck responded:
> >
> > Rich,
> >
> > I did not have the time to post the entire passage from the book "With a
> > Great Master in India" which relates to this inner Journey that Paul
> > Twitchell claims to have taken in the book "The Tigers Fang".
>
> Why didn't you answer my simple direct questions?
>
>
> > The majority
> > of this section, it seems, has been used by Twitchell in his book in
the
> > exact sequence and using the exact words with minor changes.
>
> You said that already. The "majority"? Then why did you post a section
> that has _none_ of the same names, words or descriptions as in the
> Tigers Fang? You haven't shown any of the "exact words". It makes me
> wonder...
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > For example at the end of the Journey in WAGMII, the traveller arrives
> > in Alakh Lok, the region of the nameless one, or Radha Soami. He
mentions
> > most everything except Radha Soami for obvious reasons.
>
> He didn't mention "WAGMII" either.
>
>
> > There is a succession of 14 pages that make up the description of this
inner
> > journey. Twitchell has used the entire 14 pages in sequence, with exact
> > wording being copied in the majority of it.
>
> Based on what you have shown us here, I don't think so. If people go to
> the same place and describe their experience, sure it will seem the
> same, but that doesn't mean a thing. Are you saying that these regions
> do not exist, and therefore Paul couldn't have gone there and written
> about his experience? If that's you stance, then I understand where you
> are coming from. But if you believe that these inner worlds do exist,
> then why couldn't have Johnson's writings lead Paul to explore there
> himself? Paul explored a multitude of writing and experiences before he
> settled on what was the core of all those and called it Eckankar.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > "The Tigers Fang". Twitchell did swap the names of the
> > masters in the Eckankar books, as well as changing and modifying the
> > cosmology as he went along.
>
> Read Doug's book and you will understand why.
>
>
> > and as time goes on, we will probably see more
> > sources uncovered in books such as the one Roger Haeske has mentioned.
>
> Yes, here they are:
> You see, Paul compiled info from _all_ the sources that were available.
> He studied everything about spiritual and religious experience, but what
> he put together is none of these. I know that detractors refuse to see
> that Paul was going thru an incredible process of spiritual growth that
> lead him to a SOC where he became a Master. He was still growing and
> learning from his vast research and inner experiences when he
> translated.
>
>
> "Difficulties of Becoming the Living ECK Master"
> by Paul Twitchell p.99 - 100
>
> This portion of the book was transcribed from private discussions
> recorded on audio tape. Paul is speaking about others and himself who
> have read and scanned thousands of books.
>
>
> "What I'm trying to say is that this book knowledge builds a great pool
> of intellectual knowledge and anyone who has a recall is able to begin
> looking at this knowledge when he is not able to have a call-up of the
> wisdom knowledge. All I'm saying, it's all stored there in the
> background, and there is no use in carrying a book around with you all
> the time. All that one does, he places it in the background, then he can
> get a recall on a lot of things that he could have if he'd never gone
> into this type of reading."
>
> "Hope you can see and understand this. Now, on the other hand, he has
> what we call the wisdom pool of the divine knowledge and as long as he
> can maintain his position at the heights, he can always call upon the
> wisdom pool. But we don't always maintain the heights of being at the
> top of the spiritual ladder all the time. We go up and we go down on
> this so when we're down, we can call upon this knowledge that we have
> had here and for some reason, all that back in the subconscious and all
> that which is in the wisdom pool also, it seems to come through when
> it's necessary to come through and there is no effort to make a recall
> on it."
>
> "I've done this hundreds of times, and on stage, or when typing on a
> manuscript or something. And in conversation with people or when I need
> it, certain ideas come up, I call on both and both will furnish the
> whole when it should be necessary."
>
>
> How would you discount this Chuck?
>
> --
maha
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:39C1DC...@aloha.net...
> maha wrote:
>
> > Thanks to Chuck and Roger for telling us about this new evidence of
Paulji's
> > plagiarism.
>
> LOL Hearsay evidence. Post it here and maybe we can boost the count up
> to 1.5% Otherwise is just another Laneism.
>
arel...@home.com
Chuck Stockdale wrote:
>
> In article <39C056...@aloha.net>,
> Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
> >Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> >
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> I, would like to quote the following pages from my copy of "With a Great
> >> Master in India" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson, copyright 1971 (5th edition):
> >
> ><SNIP the inner trip>
> >
> >
> >> Does any of this sound familiar?
> >
> >What's the point Chuck? This is _not_ a plagiarism. Are you saying
> >that Paul, or anyone else can't travel to similar areas as Johnson did?
> >
> >Have you read Doug's book Chuck? What do you think about the fact that
> >only a very insignificant amount of what Paul wrote has similar words to
> >Johnson's?
> >
> Chuck responded:
>
> Rich,
>
> I did not have the time to post the entire passage from the book "With a
> Great Master in India" which relates to this inner Journey that Paul
> Twitchell claims to have taken in the book "The Tigers Fang". The majority
> of this section, it seems, has been used by Twitchell in his book in the
> exact sequence and using the exact words with minor changes.
I wonder what this says about Twitchell. I mean if he has to use other
people's materials to write a book about his spiritual experiences, what
does that say about his experiences or lack thereof?
Lurk
arel...@home.com
Rich wrote:
>
> Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> >
> > Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
> > >What's the point Chuck? This is _not_ a plagiarism. Are you saying
> > >that Paul, or anyone else can't travel to similar areas as Johnson did?
> > >
> > >Have you read Doug's book Chuck? What do you think about the fact that
> > >only a very insignificant amount of what Paul wrote has similar words to
> > >Johnson's?
> > >
> > Chuck responded:
> >
> > Rich,
> >
> > I did not have the time to post the entire passage from the book "With a
> > Great Master in India" which relates to this inner Journey that Paul
> > Twitchell claims to have taken in the book "The Tigers Fang".
>
> Why didn't you answer my simple direct questions?
>
> > The majority
> > of this section, it seems, has been used by Twitchell in his book in the
> > exact sequence and using the exact words with minor changes.
>
> You said that already. The "majority"? Then why did you post a section
> that has _none_ of the same names, words or descriptions as in the
> Tigers Fang? You haven't shown any of the "exact words". It makes me
> wonder...
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > For example at the end of the Journey in WAGMII, the traveller arrives
> > in Alakh Lok, the region of the nameless one, or Radha Soami. He mentions
> > most everything except Radha Soami for obvious reasons.
>
> He didn't mention "WAGMII" either.
>
> > There is a succession of 14 pages that make up the description of this inner
> > journey. Twitchell has used the entire 14 pages in sequence, with exact
> > wording being copied in the majority of it.
>
> Based on what you have shown us here, I don't think so. If people go to
> the same place and describe their experience, sure it will seem the
> same, but that doesn't mean a thing. Are you saying that these regions
> do not exist, and therefore Paul couldn't have gone there and written
> about his experience?
Give it up Rich, Twitchell was a plagiarist. Abandon these childish
notions of yours.
If that's you stance, then I understand where you
> are coming from. But if you believe that these inner worlds do exist,
> then why couldn't have Johnson's writings lead Paul to explore there
> himself? Paul explored a multitude of writing and experiences before he
> settled on what was the core of all those and called it Eckankar.
Paul, who bills himself as the great spiritual master with the highest
consciousness, turns out he copies other people's experiences and passes
them off as his own. Now how high of a consciousness can that be?
I think what we have here is a guy who approached the world through
books. Reading about others spiritual experiences and fashioning himself
as an adept spiritual traveler is misrepresenting himself, if not just
plain sick.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > "The Tigers Fang". Twitchell did swap the names of the
> > masters in the Eckankar books, as well as changing and modifying the
> > cosmology as he went along.
>
> Read Doug's book and you will understand why.
Doug's book doesn't explain why Twitchell swapped out all the names.
Doug poses a highly suspect theory about Paul changing Kirpals name
because Kirpal no longer supported Paul since Paul read this letter from
Kirpal that no one has produced. Beside the fact this Kirpal
explanation being weak, Doug never sufficiently explains why Paul
changed all the other masters.
Yet eckists act like Doug explains this.
>
> > and as time goes on, we will probably see more
> > sources uncovered in books such as the one Roger Haeske has mentioned.
>
> Yes, here they are:
>
> The following literary references appear in the writings of Paul
> Twitchell and were compiled by Elizabeth Boyles during her graduate
> study at UNC-CH in English.
Okay, just so I'm clear...when Boyles says these literary references
were found in Paul's writing, does that mean Paul gave credit somewhere
and mentions them by name or they are referred to and credit was not
given. Further, does she have a list which give us the particular books
where these are referenced if they were?
By compiled, do you mean he plagairized these sources?
Sounds like Paul is making an excuse for his plagiarism. Copying other
people's spiritual experiences and passing them off as you own is not
recalling something you read once and recalled on stage when needed.
Lurk
Maha
"Rebezar Tarzs" in THE FAR COUNTRY.
But here we learn that perhaps the most intimate chapter of THE TIGERS
FANG -- "The Sugmad of Being" -- was simply stolen from yet another Sant Mat
book of Julian Johnson.
<arel...@home.com> wrote in message news:39C2AEAB...@home.com...
Rich
>
> Great post Rich.
>
> When an individual is ready to leave a group, at times I have noticed
> that there occurs a deconstruction of the framework of that group,
> and all the ideas, thoughts, manifestations which that individual
> experienced while a member.
Some people may not be that secure in their mind with their decision and
so will find comfort in fault finding to justify their change. Soul
knows but the mind in most cases lags behind.
> Interesting that Chuck is reorganizing principals of the teachings
> of Eckankar to better suite his current paradigm.
Yes, I've noticed that this is common among the detractors. Chuck's top
ten list is slightly off in almost every one. We see it as them setting
up the straw man just to knock him down. Of course this is their
perception even if it goes against the actual principals and teachings
of Eckankar.<sigh>
> Roger has discovered
> information outside of Eckankar, which strengthens his resolve for
> leaving Eckankar.
>
> I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, not at all. I've done it many
> times myself. I think that taking another road, maybe less traveled is what
> drives soul to gain what is necessary to continue its journey.
Yes. I have no problem with people leaving Eckankar. They are choosing
what is best for them spiritually. The conflicts that arise here,
discounting the purposeful trolls, is that they insist with their
attitude and writing that their experiences are what Eckankar and
current Eckists teach and believe.
Rich
God Consciousness may not be what you think it should be.
> I think what we have here is a guy who approached the world through
> books. Reading about others spiritual experiences and fashioning himself
> as an adept spiritual traveler is misrepresenting himself, if not just
> plain sick.
>
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > > "The Tigers Fang". Twitchell did swap the names of the
> > > masters in the Eckankar books, as well as changing and modifying the
> > > cosmology as he went along.
> >
> > Read Doug's book and you will understand why.
>
> Doug's book doesn't explain why Twitchell swapped out all the names.
Yes it does. Go back and read it again.
> Doug poses a highly suspect theory about Paul changing Kirpals name
> because Kirpal no longer supported Paul since Paul read this letter from
> Kirpal that no one has produced. Beside the fact this Kirpal
> explanation being weak, Doug never sufficiently explains why Paul
> changed all the other masters.
Yes he did although no matter what he says you have shown that it will
never be sufficient for you.
> Yet eckists act like Doug explains this.
>
> >
> > > and as time goes on, we will probably see more
> > > sources uncovered in books such as the one Roger Haeske has mentioned.
> >
> > Yes, here they are:
> >
> > The following literary references appear in the writings of Paul
> > Twitchell and were compiled by Elizabeth Boyles during her graduate
> > study at UNC-CH in English.
>
> Okay, just so I'm clear...when Boyles says these literary references
> were found in Paul's writing, does that mean Paul gave credit somewhere
> and mentions them by name or they are referred to and credit was not
> given. Further, does she have a list which give us the particular books
> where these are referenced if they were?
I don't know.
<SNIP lsit>
> > You see, Paul compiled info from _all_ the sources that were available.
>
> By compiled, do you mean he plagairized these sources?
No.
Nope, he was talking informally to a small group about reading being "a
very important background for anyone who is interested in mastership or
interested in being highly developed or spiritually developed ECKist."
--
gruendemann
material to the group or to a web page to give others the opportunity to
make the comparison for themselves? After all, taking a strangers word for
anything on usenet is rather studip actually. Opinion is one thing, facts
are another. Post sections that you believe are proof.
As far as I'm concerned it surprises me that david lane set in motion a
current where proof that others have found which support these inner
worlds is now seen as proof that lane and lane alone can be trusted to set
you on the path of truth. Now I find that particularly interesting. For
one man, he's turned more people away from spiritual insights and freedom
than any man so far as eastern philosophy is concerned. Odd karma, that
one. Charan comes over to the west to bring Sant Mat to westerners and his
beloved student david lane ends up turning Souls away from eastern thought
and religions. Weird cycle there. Must be past life...
Roger Haeske
I just wanted to reply to your messages here as well. Since I have been
around Eckankar as of recently, I have a different perspective than you do.
I agree with Gruendemann that many Eckists are doing creative things. Just
like he says you may not be aware that they are Eckists. In fact I think
Eckists are very creative. I have met many Eckists in creative fields. Some
of them are well known. Musicians on TV shows, actors, writers and they have
been successful.
The book "On the Breath of Gods," by Ariel Tomioka is a very good book. She
used to be very high up in Eckankar. Doing talks at the major seminars. But
since publishing that book she had left Eckankar. Though I don't know the
reason. Even she had experiences with Eck Masters before she came into
Eckankar (Or maybe just masters). It is interesting that she decided to
leave. The book is good and it mentions several masters, but with the names
changed. See if you can recognize Rebazar in there by the descriptions and
mannerisms. So it seems strange that she would leave even though she was
having spiritual experiences with these masters even before Eckankar. Here
is a link to that book an Amazon.com.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0923490094/qid=969115839/sr=1-1/002-3
300916-9691224
Also the idea that Eckists view this world as the Ashcan of the universe is
basically untrue. I think some Eckists may feel that way. I know I didn't
feel that way. In fact I saw the physical plane as a spiritual plane and
quite frankly most of the Eckists I dealt with felt the same way. So I
simply do not think Eckists percieve their plight as negatively as you said.
Maybe they would feel fearful if they wanted to leave Eckankar. But within
Eckankar they are very positive and full of Divine Love.
Roger
Roger Haeske
Imagination," by Neville copyright 1954.
From page 2 and 3 of "Awakened Imagination," by Neville.
(There is only one thing in the world, Imagination, and all our deformations
of it.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted
with grief. (Isaiah 53:3)
Imagination is the very gateway of reality. "Man," said Blake, is either the
ark of God or a phantom of the earth and of the water. Naturally he is only
a natural organ subject to Sense. The Eternal Body of Man is The
Imagination: that is God himself, The Divine Body. Jesus we are his
Members." )
Here is how this looks like in "The Far Country," by Paul Twitchell page
221.
("There is only one thing in the world, imagination and all man's
deformations of it. It is the gateway to reality. Soul is either the ark of
the SUGMAD or a phantom of the earth and of the water. Naturally, it is only
a natural organ subject to the senses. The eternal body of man is the
Imagination, his spark of the SUGMAD, the Divine Body. The ECK is the leader
of all Souls, and we are ITS members.)
This is just one example of many in The Far Country's chapter The Sugmad of
Being. Not only does he plagiarize Neville in this example, but he also
plagiarizes William Blake the mystic poet as well.
To me this just doesn't seem becoming of a man who was supposed to have the
highest morals. The Eck Master was supposed to be the Superman of the
Ethnologists. The highest man on the planet earth. Then why did he need to
plagiarize?
From "Awakened Imagination," page 5 by Neville.
(When imagination is discovered as the first principle of religion, the
stone of literal understanding will have felt the rod of Moses and, like the
rock of Zin issue forth the water of psychological meaning into the wine of
forgiveness. Then, like the good Samaritan, they will pour it on the wounds
of all.)
From "The Far Country," page 223
(When the imagination is discovered as the first principle of religion, the
stone of literal understanding will have felt the rod of Moses and like the
rock of Zin, will issue forth the water of psychological meaning to quench
the thirst of humanity; all who take the proffered cup and live a life
according to this truth, will transform the waters of spiritual meaning into
the wine of understanding. )
I always wondered why Paul was talking about Moses and the rock of Zin. It's
because he took this info from a book that makes biblical references
throughout. I remeber thinking this quote about Moses seemed totally out of
place in this book. But now I know he copied it from Awakend Imagination.
Then he changed a few names and rearanged a sentence for his Eckanar
audience. These are obvious examples of plagiarism to me and there are many
more throughout the chapter, The Sugmad of Being.
Roger
Ken
maha <ma...@vahana.com> wrote ...
>
> Poor Cap'n Blackmail...the portraiture of denial...
Poor *Maha*! He'll believe almost anything, just as long as it's critical
of Eckankar. Just look at his history . . . you'll not find a single message
to this ng that finds a single fault with anyone or anything that's critical of
Eckankar.
A true dis-believer!
> "Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:39C1DC...@aloha.net...
> > maha wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks to Chuck and Roger for telling us about this new evidence of
> Paulji's
> > > plagiarism.
> >
> > LOL Hearsay evidence. Post it here and maybe we can boost the count up
> > to 1.5% Otherwise is just another Laneism.
--
Ken
It is truly said, "You can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much."
- Denis Howe
bigot \Big"ot\, n.
A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person
who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics
or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Ken
Rich <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote ..
>
> Chuck Stockdale wrote:
> > Withdrawal from the physical
> > longings that we have, is a grave mistake, and instead of shortening our
> > incarnations in the physical as taught in Eckankar, actually compels us to
> > return to once again try to eat the sandwich of life that we turned down
> > because of the acceptance of anti-physical concepts.
>
> Interesting... so contrary to what Eckankar teaches, you propose that
> succumbing to the passions of the mind rather than learning to become
> detached, will free you from returning for more lifetimes? :-O
What Chuck is saying is that he sees only two choices for dealing
with the human condition . . . repression of or immersion in our
desires and longings. Eckankar teaches us that we do have a third
choice, which Rich has mentioned here . . . non-attachment.
--
Ken
If you look into the face of Love
and not just at its superficial form
You yourselves become the house of God
and are its lords.
- Rumi
Maha
with being a "bigot" and a "non-believer."
Onward Eckan soldier...
"Ken" <ken.st...@att.net> wrote in message
news:tvOw5.31491$M37.7...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Ken
Maha <Mahav...@Vairagi.com> wrote ...
>
> Ken, I like the way you lump honest criticism of eck org policy and history
> with being a "bigot" and a "non-believer."
So what's "honest criticism" got to do with you and what you write?
Or was that just an irrational comparison designed to keep me on
my toes?
Oh Maha!
<LOL>
--
Ken
a heart filled with love
is like a phoenix
that no cage can imprison
such a bird can only fly
above and beyond
any known universe
- Rumi
Chuck Stockdale
"Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote:
>Chuck,
>
>I just wanted to reply to your messages here as well. Since I have been
>around Eckankar as of recently, I have a different perspective than you do.
>I agree with Gruendemann that many Eckists are doing creative things. Just
>like he says you may not be aware that they are Eckists. In fact I think
>Eckists are very creative. I have met many Eckists in creative fields. Some
>of them are well known. Musicians on TV shows, actors, writers and they
have
>been successful.
Chuck replied:
Roger, you have a good point, as you are closer to the current organization
than I am. I did however, spend time at the local Eck center reading through
all the available books in an effort to tune into the current Org. position
before posting on this NG. My post on the creative works of Eckists, was an
attempt to jog the thinking and resolve of many creative members who could
contribute much to the writings that are available about the science of the
inner planes. They may argue that the outer works are fine just as they are,
but if Eckists are able to penetrate the worlds of our inner universes as I
know some are, then it would help our current scientific effort as a
civilization to merge knowledge of the seen (which is changing rapidly) with
the science of the unseen.
When I was in Eckankar, I had much to say and write, but I couldn't let it
flow creatively due to the constraints of, and concerns of conflict with,
official Eck dogma. Home office asked for any local newspaper articles or
information that was being printed on Eckists, as they were monitoring all
quadrants. I always sent them everything that I had from my local area.
By the way, I personally got a taste of what it would be like, and how easy
it would be to start a spiritual movement. I did an interview on Eckankar
for my local newspaper as part of my Eck service as a channel. The article
appeared on the front page of the B section with a big picture of myself.
The photographer chose a picture that showed a close up of my eyes. After
the article appeared, people got my phone number and started calling me at
various hours, sometimes late at night. Many women called as I suppose that
the sexual aspects of the male soul traveller thing interested them. I got
letters by people asking how they could meet me, etc.
I never answered any of the letters as I found it disturbing that they
wanted to meet me instead of the master of Eckankar, and I gave the contacts
for the local Eck center for people that called me. The peculiar thing was,
my phone number was unlisted. Anyway, what I discovered from this is that
people want to be near someone who claims to have any sort of connection to
God and the beyond.
>The book "On the Breath of Gods," by Ariel Tomioka is a very good book. She
>used to be very high up in Eckankar. Doing talks at the major seminars. But
>since publishing that book she had left Eckankar. Though I don't know the
>reason. Even she had experiences with Eck Masters before she came into
>Eckankar (Or maybe just masters). It is interesting that she decided to
>leave. The book is good and it mentions several masters, but with the
names
>changed. See if you can recognize Rebazar in there by the descriptions and
>mannerisms. So it seems strange that she would leave even though she was
>having spiritual experiences with these masters even before Eckankar. Here
>is a link to that book an Amazon.com.
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0923490094/qid=969115839/sr=1-1/002
3
>300916-9691224
>
>Also the idea that Eckists view this world as the Ashcan of the universe is
>basically untrue. I think some Eckists may feel that way. I know I didn't
>feel that way. In fact I saw the physical plane as a spiritual plane and
>quite frankly most of the Eckists I dealt with felt the same way. So I
>simply do not think Eckists percieve their plight as negatively as you
said.
>Maybe they would feel fearful if they wanted to leave Eckankar. But within
>Eckankar they are very positive and full of Divine Love.
Chuck replied:
I agree about the divine love of Eckists. As a body of people, Eckists have
much love which can be felt at seminars, etc.
I think the ashcan of the universe thing can be more subtle than that. The
positioning of the physical universe, and its value, in the mind of the
student plays a large part in the their physical effectiveness in life. How
we regard life, particularly, physical life, is quite crucial to our
application within it. For myself, this concept of the world as it is
positioned within the Eck cosmology, and the encouragement of the student to
put his attention on the far country, results in an unusual situation where
his head is in the imagery of the higher regions, and his feet are just
enough off the ground that he does not get good physical traction.
So called service to the Eck, can occupy much of one's time, and withdrawal
from the physical that results from the study of Eckankar, I still fervently
maintain, can effectively defeat the purpose of our original intention to be
physical in the first place.
>Roger
>
>
the_trol...@my-deja.com
"Roger Haeske" <ra...@idt.net> wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> I just wanted to reply to your messages here as well. Since I have
been
> around Eckankar as of recently, I have a different perspective than
you do.
> I agree with Gruendemann that many Eckists are doing creative things.
Just
> like he says you may not be aware that they are Eckists. In fact I
think
> Eckists are very creative. I have met many Eckists in creative
fields. Some
> of them are well known. Musicians on TV shows, actors, writers and
they have
> been successful.
>
book. She
> used to be very high up in Eckankar. Doing talks at the major
seminars. But
> since publishing that book she had left Eckankar. Though I don't know
the
> reason. Even she had experiences with Eck Masters before she came into
> Eckankar (Or maybe just masters). It is interesting that she decided
to
> leave. The book is good and it mentions several masters, but with
the names
> changed. See if you can recognize Rebazar in there by the
descriptions and
> mannerisms. So it seems strange that she would leave even though she
was
> having spiritual experiences with these masters even before Eckankar.
Here
> is a link to that book an Amazon.com.
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0923490094/qid=969115839/sr=1-
> 300916-9691224
>
> Also the idea that Eckists view this world as the Ashcan of the
universe is
> basically untrue. I think some Eckists may feel that way. I know I
didn't
> feel that way. In fact I saw the physical plane as a spiritual plane
and
> quite frankly most of the Eckists I dealt with felt the same way. So I
> simply do not think Eckists percieve their plight as negatively as
you said.
> Maybe they would feel fearful if they wanted to leave Eckankar. But
within
> Eckankar they are very positive and full of Divine Love.
>
>
> Ariel Tomioka ? Left Eckankar ? Surely you jest !?!. Did you know her
initiation with Eckankar and within the Vairagi Brotherhood ? Did you ?
About 7 +/- years ago I learned via the H.I. "grapevine" that Tomioka
finally recieved the 9th initiation within the audible life stream. Do
any of you know what the ninth also corresponds with. A person who
recieves the ninth initiation either has already, or soon will recieve
the first initiation into the Vairagi Order ! But at that point she can
leave the outer organization, being "weaned" from the LEM and serve the
cosmos in her unique way. There are only a few, maybe five folks on
this planet who have a 9th or higher initiation. I know of another
Higher Initiate and member of the Brotherhood, but he serves silently.
By the way Mr. Klemp, at a major seminar declared this earth, pinda
planet, the "ashcan" of the universe.-Troll
Maha
>
> Maha <Mahav...@Vairagi.com> wrote ...
> >
> > Ken, I like the way you lump honest criticism of eck org policy and
history
> > with being a "bigot" and a "non-believer."
>
>
> So what's "honest criticism" got to do with you and what you write?
> Or was that just an irrational comparison designed to keep me on
> my toes?
Well, at this point, anything to get you off your knees seems worth a try.
Rich
> the encouragement of the student to
> put his attention on the far country, results in an unusual situation where
> his head is in the imagery of the higher regions, and his feet are just
> enough off the ground that he does not get good physical traction.
>
> So called service to the Eck, can occupy much of one's time, and withdrawal
> from the physical that results from the study of Eckankar
This is obviously what you did Chuck. You may have been out of touch
then but you are certainly out of touch now. Eckists do not withdraw
from the physical. Harold's emphasis is just the opposite. He has
always said that your family comes first.
arel...@home.com
Rich wrote:
>
> Len wrote:
> >
> > Great post Rich.
> >
> > When an individual is ready to leave a group, at times I have noticed
> > that there occurs a deconstruction of the framework of that group,
> > and all the ideas, thoughts, manifestations which that individual
> > experienced while a member.
>
> Some people may not be that secure in their mind with their decision and
> so will find comfort in fault finding to justify their change. Soul
> knows but the mind in most cases lags behind.
>
> > Interesting that Chuck is reorganizing principals of the teachings
> > of Eckankar to better suite his current paradigm.
>
> Yes, I've noticed that this is common among the detractors. Chuck's top
> ten list is slightly off in almost every one.
Rich can sit back and make this claim, but will not support it.
We see it as them setting
> up the straw man just to knock him down. Of course this is their
> perception even if it goes against the actual principals and teachings
> of Eckankar.<sigh>
>
> > Roger has discovered
> > information outside of Eckankar, which strengthens his resolve for
> > leaving Eckankar.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, not at all. I've done it many
> > times myself. I think that taking another road, maybe less traveled is what
> > drives soul to gain what is necessary to continue its journey.
>
> Yes. I have no problem with people leaving Eckankar. They are choosing
> what is best for them spiritually. The conflicts that arise here,
> discounting the purposeful trolls, is that they insist with their
> attitude and writing that their experiences are what Eckankar and
> current Eckists teach and believe.
Many provide quotes to back their opinions up. Eckists simply take the
arrogant position that any criticism of eckankar is simply a matter of
the critic's interpretation.
This is not to say a critic's interpretation can not be wrong, they can
be and are. However, sitting back and saying it is a matter of critic's
interpretation without explantion or supporting quotes to substantiate
such view is weak. Even when there is contradictory information, many
eckists take the position that the new way, is the correct way, yet the
old way was not wrong, or there were never mistakes made. Kind of makes
me scratch my head.
Lurk
arel...@home.com
Thanks Roger.
I wonder how many smoking guns eckists need?
Looks bad for Twithcell. Not an isolate incident at all.
I notice Neville was on the Boyles reference list Rich posted. Maybe
that list is sort of a guide to all the sources Paul plagairized. Maybe
this thing is bigger than orginally thought.
Lurk
Rich
> Many provide quotes to back their opinions up. Eckists simply take the
> arrogant position that any criticism of eckankar is simply a matter of
> the critic's interpretation.
>
> This is not to say a critic's interpretation can not be wrong, they can
> be and are. However, sitting back and saying it is a matter of critic's
> interpretation without explantion or supporting quotes to substantiate
> such view is weak. Even when there is contradictory information, many
> eckists take the position that the new way, is the correct way, yet the
> old way was not wrong, or there were never mistakes made. Kind of makes
> me scratch my head.
None of this is true. Lurk is fully aware of what he says and does
here. Over the last few years it has been explained by many different
Eckist, many different ways to Lurk. Innumerable times he has been
shown the quotes. Doug has even gone so far as to back up his opinions
with a whole book. Yet he has ignored all these reasoned and sincere
posts and continues to misrepresent Eckists(as he does above) Eckankar
and ECK Masters. Chuck seems to be following the same pattern.
Eckankar is continually evolving. The spiritual path is one of change.
Rich
>
> Dear Lurk...
>
> As you know, Rich has offered to collate the number of paragraphs that are
> accepted as plagiarised and see what these represent against the total in
> the written works...
>
> So far I believe the figure is 1.3%
No it's way more Michael. It's 1.4% :-)
> Please submit anything you care to that would significanlty alter this
> rather insignificant figure.
>
> Love
>
> Michael
<SNIP>
> > Roger Haeske wrote:
> > >
> > > Here are a couple of examples of plagiarism taken from the book
> "Awakened
> > > Imagination," by Neville copyright 1954.
Thanks Roger. I lost your original post but have added these to my
files and so now we have new totals of these that are documented on the
net.
Far Country 418
Flute of God 5
SKS I 29
SKS II 17
Letters to Gail I 5
Key to Secret Worlds 2
TOTAL 476
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
To be submitted in the Plagiarism Contest, comparison quotes must be
posted here, or on the web, for all to see. No hearsay, suspicions,
guesses, opinions or unsubstantiated claims can be accepted in the
total number of paragraphs.
Every benefit of the doubt is given to David Lane and detractors.
Numbers will be rounded off in his favor, and questionable paragraphs
will always err on there side. Partial paragraphs and even one sentence
quotes will be counted as a whole paragraph.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
--
Michael Wallace
other than your interpretation of reality?
If I remember one and one adds up to two, so how are you going to add up
your personal criticism's to be anything more than your interpretation of
reality?
You're not doing so well this month...
Love
Michael
<arel...@home.com> wrote in message news:39C4CDF2...@home.com...
>
>
> Rich wrote:
> >
> > Len wrote:
> > >
> > > Great post Rich.
> > >
> > > When an individual is ready to leave a group, at times I have noticed
> > > that there occurs a deconstruction of the framework of that group,
> > > and all the ideas, thoughts, manifestations which that individual
> > > experienced while a member.
> >
> > Some people may not be that secure in their mind with their decision and
> > so will find comfort in fault finding to justify their change. Soul
> > knows but the mind in most cases lags behind.
> >
> > > Interesting that Chuck is reorganizing principals of the teachings
> > > of Eckankar to better suite his current paradigm.
> >
> > Yes, I've noticed that this is common among the detractors. Chuck's top
> > ten list is slightly off in almost every one.
>
> Rich can sit back and make this claim, but will not support it.
>
> We see it as them setting
> > up the straw man just to knock him down. Of course this is their
> > perception even if it goes against the actual principals and teachings
> > of Eckankar.<sigh>
> >
> > > Roger has discovered
> > > information outside of Eckankar, which strengthens his resolve for
> > > leaving Eckankar.
> > >
> > > I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, not at all. I've done it
many
> > > times myself. I think that taking another road, maybe less traveled
is what
> > > drives soul to gain what is necessary to continue its journey.
> >
> > Yes. I have no problem with people leaving Eckankar. They are choosing
> > what is best for them spiritually. The conflicts that arise here,
> > discounting the purposeful trolls, is that they insist with their
> > attitude and writing that their experiences are what Eckankar and
> > current Eckists teach and believe.
>
> Many provide quotes to back their opinions up. Eckists simply take the
> arrogant position that any criticism of eckankar is simply a matter of
> the critic's interpretation.
>
> This is not to say a critic's interpretation can not be wrong, they can
> be and are. However, sitting back and saying it is a matter of critic's
> interpretation without explantion or supporting quotes to substantiate
> such view is weak. Even when there is contradictory information, many
> eckists take the position that the new way, is the correct way, yet the
> old way was not wrong, or there were never mistakes made. Kind of makes
> me scratch my head.
>
> Lurk
Michael Wallace
As you know, Rich has offered to collate the number of paragraphs that are
accepted as plagiarised and see what these represent against the total in
the written works...
So far I believe the figure is 1.3%
Please submit anything you care to that would significanlty alter this
rather insignificant figure.
Love
Michael
<arel...@home.com> wrote in message news:39C4CFF3...@home.com...
>
> Thanks Roger.
>
> I wonder how many smoking guns eckists need?
>
> Looks bad for Twithcell. Not an isolate incident at all.
>
> I notice Neville was on the Boyles reference list Rich posted. Maybe
> that list is sort of a guide to all the sources Paul plagairized. Maybe
> this thing is bigger than orginally thought.
>
> Lurk
>
>
>
> Roger Haeske wrote:
> >
> > Here are a couple of examples of plagiarism taken from the book
"Awakened
> > Imagination," by Neville copyright 1954.
> >
Ken
Maha <Mahav...@Vairagi.com> wrote ...
Nice way to end a thread, Maha. Suspicious innuendo implying
something, but just enough fog so that the reader isn't quite sure
exactly what it is you're saying.
Neither am I for that matter.
Maha
>
> Maha <Mahav...@Vairagi.com> wrote ...
> >
> >
> > "Ken" <ken.st...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:NEPw5.1261$Cq6.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > >
> > > Maha <Mahav...@Vairagi.com> wrote ...
> > > >
> > > > Ken, I like the way you lump honest criticism of eck org policy and
> > history
> > > > with being a "bigot" and a "non-believer."
> > >
> > >
> > > So what's "honest criticism" got to do with you and what you write?
> > > Or was that just an irrational comparison designed to keep me on
> > > my toes?
> >
> > Well, at this point, anything to get you off your knees seems worth a
try.
>
>
> Nice way to end a thread, Maha. Suspicious innuendo implying
> something, but just enough fog so that the reader isn't quite sure
> exactly what it is you're saying.
>
> Neither am I for that matter.
Call it a signature; if it fits you, fine. If not, why worry?
Jan4litsnd
>This is just one example of many in The Far Country's chapter The Sugmad of
>Being. Not only does he plagiarize Neville in this example, but he also
>plagiarizes William Blake the mystic poet as well.
>
>To me this just doesn't seem becoming of a man who was supposed to have the
>highest morals. The Eck Master was supposed to be the Superman of the
>Ethnologists. The highest man on the planet earth. Then why did he need to
>plagiarize?
Like everything else in life, plagiarizing is in the eye of the beholder. For
instance (whether Rebazar Tarzs, Twitchell, Neville, Johnson, or Blake),
another quote from this same chapter 11 Roger refers to, starting on the bottom
of page 219 of THE FAR COUNTRY seems to fit this plagiarism issue:
"This faculty of imagination is much greater than any man can imagine What is
reality on the other side of the vein of life is imagination on this side--you
have little in your images which isn't in existence on the other side."
"What is above is below! Remember that I told you this somewhere back in my
talks? Take for example the great astral museum which has all the forthcoming
inventions in it that will ever be dreamed of on earth."
"Many inventors like Edison and Marconi were brought here in their light bodies
so they could see the future inventions in which they were interested. Back in
their bodies again, after awakening from sleep, these men believed that they
dreamed these--and after a time they believed that they conceived these
inventions, that they were figurations of their imagination."
"Not hardly, but this is the way all inventions are created in the earth world.
No one can think of anything but what it hasn't already been created in the
other worlds. This is the reason that man is so far behind in his thought
power--he tries to reason and use logic instead of the imaginative tube in his
head."
"This isn't the imagination as Webster's dictionary gives it or the result of
some reasoned out idea. The imagination, as I speak of it here, is the divine
sense--the use of the third eye to see beyond this world--beyond the senses."
"By sitting in silence and watching the worlds pass in succession before you,
then it is possible to see all things. This is the way the spiritual travelers
are connected with the Far Country. It isn't actually running out into the
distant spaces--or the worlds of nothingness, but it is that ability to bring
into focus whatever you wish to see in the other worlds and look at it through
the third eye."
"Actually you don't have to travel. You can become like the ECK and see all
the worlds by letting your spirit spread out over them. You become the
All-Seeing Eye, in other words."
Also, see what Paul Twitchell said in "Difficulties of Becoming the Living ECK
Master":
http://x66.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=656964772&CONTEXT=969243295
.273678356&hitnum=1
And from page 164 of THE SECRET TEACHINGS, by Harold Klemp:
"I'd like to conclude by mentioning how the libraries on the inner planes work.
On these planes there are main libraries connected to the wisdom temples. But
there are also many branch libraries. The main library of each wisdom temple
is like the Library of Congress, providing the greatest source of all the books
and materials. One particular library I was visiting on the Astral Plane is
adjacent to the Temple of Askleposis. In this place, some of the writings of
the Shariyat, which then are brought here to the physical and translated, are
stored in an archival warehouse. The Astral Plane is an immense world, so the
writings are stored in huge rooms."
"Back in this archival storeroom are the librarian's staff. These are people
who work quickly, efficiently, and know exactly what they're doing. They're
quite cheerful as they move here and there, going about their business,
compiling things, doing this and that."
"In the back of the room is a metal contraption that has huge sheets laid on
it. The stacks of paper look like computer printouts, but these sheets are
many times larger than we are used to seeing on earth. These are unprocessed
manuscripts; source manuscripts from which writers of the earth world and other
places come and take material. The sheets feed up on a sprocket, then run off
onto racks that go down the long aisles of the warehouse, carried along on
little tracks. If you want to see a certain section, you press a button and
the sheets slowly run forward so you can read them."
"There are very few writers who come to this library. Most of the writers from
earth go to the branch libraries, so they don't get to use the best sources.
But the good researchers--such as Paul, Julian Johnson, Paul Brunton, and
others--can come in here and select the paragraphs that suit their audience. A
certain key concept will be expressed, such as a certain aspect of spiritual
liberation. Then this one idea is written in eight different paragraphs,
reflecting eight different levels of consciousness."
"In the margin next to the different paragraphs on the manuscript I was reading
were notes written in Paul's hand: 'Far Country,' 'Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book
One,' 'Shariyat, Book Two,' 'Spiritual Notebook,' and again, 'Far Country,' and
so on. Under his notes a librarian researcher had placed the specific page
reference where these ideas could be found in the current manuscripts."
I find that it is the value of the entirety of these teachings, that has been
of utmost importance to my life, not this argument of who originated what and
when, which to me is a specious argument. Who can say who really originated
anything; the question to my mind would be if any of it originates here. Do we
really believe the mind is creating, or do we think that the mind tunes in to
greater awarenesses as described in the quote above from THE FAR COUNTRY.
The underlying changes and unfoldment possible if one practices the spiritual
exercises, as well as the personal one on one experiences are the real proofs
of whether there are ECK Masters. The proof can only be in our own personal
experiences.
Jan
Dennis Webber
> This is very interesting. Today I ordered four of Neville's books from the
> Bodhi Tree Bookstore "Awakened Imagination", Your Face Is Your Fortune",
Ah, the Bodhi Tree, one of my favorite hangouts whenever I get to West
Hollywood.
Incense, weird music, weird people.
Had a burn-out hippy in her late forties come up to me in the new book section
and ask me "what did I do to her children?" She looked like she had been smoking
anything that would burn, grass, ragweed, old tun cans, etc.
Great place, ever been there?