Looking For Sudar Singh
Etznab
Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar, brought out the ECK teachings
in 1965. We look at different aspects of the task he faced in bringing
Eckankar to the modern-day public. Digging
into the past becomes old and tiresome, yet sometimes tying
the past in with the present can illustrate a spiritual purpose.
Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India
in 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on
Sudar Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named
Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all.
Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real.
["Based on": (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by Harold
Klemp]
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
Let me see how fun it is to go out and find material for Sudar
Singh myself.
*********
"Paul said that he thought Sudar Singh died sometime around 1936-37.
It turns out that Sudarshan Singh died in December of 1936. The next
year, in 1937, the fifth Sant Sat Guru, Babuji, moved to Agra, to
bring the center for the Parent Faith back to
its origins."
[Based on: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 12]
*********
Writes Twitchell,
". . . I found this to be true of Sudar Singh, the strange mystic of
Allahabad, in the summer of 1938, when I visited him with my step-
sister."
[Based on: In My Soul I Am Free, by Brad Steiger]
*********
(appears in italics)
"Sudar Singh, who lived in his ashram in India, had the ability to
appear to his own people in his Atma Sarup body, no matter where they
might be. A skill almost anyone can learn who gets the knack of Soul
Travel. . . Among my numerous discourses from many gurus in the flesh
and those on the inner planes, are taken down when Sudar Singh
appeared in my apartment in New York City, in his light body,
although his flesh self was six thousand miles away in India."
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
Question. When did Paul Twitchell live in New York City?
[....]
He and Camille were married in Providence, Rhode Island, in 1942. When
he got out of the navy in 1945, they moved to New York. Paul wandered
around a bit, and eventually took a job with the navy as the
Washington, D.C., corr-espondent for Our Navy magazine. He kept copies
of a lot of letters written from Washington, D.C., or the Washington
Press Club, so we know he worked there for quite a while.
[....]
"Based on": Article (Early Commitments) @http://www.eckankar.org/
Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
Naturally I must ask myself how Sudar Singh could have a flesh self
in 1945 if he died in 1936, 1937, or 1938?
Incidentally, an earlier version of that one quote (about Sudar
Singh and his flesh self) apparently read (in italics)
"Kirpal Singh who is still at his own ashram in India, has the ability
to appear to his own people, in his Nuri Sarup body, no matter where
they may be. A skill which almost anybody can learn who gets the knack
of bilocation. Among my numerous discourses from many gurus in the
flesh and those on the inner planes, are those taken down when Kirpal
Singh appeared in my apartment in Washington, D.C., in his light
body, although his flesh self was six-thousand miles away in India."
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html]
OK, so maybe it wasn't Kirpal Singh either - since Kirpal Singh
visited Paul when he lived in Washington D.C., not New York City.
Something else I found about Sudar Singh:
"The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread ECK to Europe
and other places on the globe. He lived into his nineties before
passing away."
[The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th printing 1983, pp.
194-195]
Sudar Singh lived into his nineties. Kirpal Singh (02/06/1894 -
August 1974)did not! Nor did "Swami Vivekananda", "Swami Premananda",
or Paramahansa Yogananda. Rebazar Tarzs lived more than ninety years,
and supposedly still has a physical body.
So who was this 90-something "Sudar Singh"? According to the
timeline, I can't seem to say for sure.
I could possibly say that Sawan Singh lived to be 90 years old:
"SAWAN SINGH (1858-1948 A.D.)-The Great Master who succeeded Baba
Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj at Beas."
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm]
Other Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Sawan_Singh
Question: Who was Sawan Singh?
".... He [Paul Twitchell] even went so far as to openly refute on tape
that Kirpal Singh was the successor to Sawan Singh of Radhasoami
Satsang Beas (who died in 1948), though it contradicted what he had
stated previously in 1965. Claimed Twitchell
(appears in italics)
"Guru Nanak became the founder of the Sikh order. Sawan Singh was the
last of the Swami group of Masters. . . and Kirpal Singh claimed to
become a follower in the same line of masters, and also Charan Singh
who was a nephew [sic: Charan Singh is a grandson] of Sawan Singh, but
neither one are masters because the mastership of this line
stopped at Sawan Singh."
[12] ...."
[12] Bernadine Burlin, personal letter to the author, dated April
5, 1977.
Yet only five years previously, Twitchell wrote:
(appears in italics)
"These few who are following the ancient science do so loosely.
However, Kirpal Singh, a living Guru, teaches the art (as) closely to
the ancient teachings (as) possible, at his ashram in Old Delhi,
India."
"The art of exteriorization was revived by Kabir, the Hindu mystic-
poet in the sixteenth century and passed through a succession of
savants, by secret initiation until Sawan Singh openly started giving
initiation to anyone who came to his ashram. When he passed his
spiritual mantle to Kirpal Singh, the instructions were to carry out
this policy." [13]
[13] Paul Twitchell, "Ancient Science of Eckankar," publisher unknown
(May 1965).
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
According to the context of time commonly recorded within the
physical universe (a timeline), the character of Sudar Singh being an
Eck Master who lived into his nineties might appear questionable.
Historically speaking.
Even if Sudar Singh had a flesh body in 1945 (and died that same
year), 90 years subtracted from 1945 gives 1855. The Eck Master that
SudarSingh reportedly came after was:
Yu Rangta - "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth
century Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
was the living ECK Master of his times."
[The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th printing 1983, p.
195]
Not to mention:
Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during the latter
part of the nineteenth century."
[Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by Harold
Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]
Maybe someone can help me with how "fun" it is to go out and find
material about Sudar Singh. Because this I already did. And not just
here. This is a drop in the bucket compared to the Eckankar "Trivia"
Time-line that I once (and twice) had posted on the Internet. One
where a person could easily look for themself and see what has been
found already - the good, the bad, and the ugly (posted together in
order not to give a biased in one direction illustration).
The purpose was to allow people the freedom to decide for themself
what appeared to be true for them or not. I simply compiled the trivia
and illustrated it. And though in a sense it was fun for me to do, it
wasn't always fun to share whatI had found. Nor do I imagine that it
is totally fun to share what I have here. IMO, it is probaly not fun
for everyone.
The point/counter-point posted on this group in the past between
David Lane and Doug Marman I have not totally read. But did this
question of a "flesh self" for Sudar Singh in 1945 come up? Or was it
even on this group that the debate tookplace?
According to Doug Marman:
"[....] ... Paul was bringing to ECKANKAR a freedom from past
traditions while incorporating the elements from them that were vital.
The concept of spiritual lineage was important, but the restrictions,
traditions and worship that go along with physical lineage was not.
Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of
ECK Masters, not for its historical accuracy based upon historical
records, but to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is
the spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
down through time. [....]"
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
Agreed. Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for its
historical accuracy based upon historical records. This might explain
the uncertain time period for Sudar Singh. However, I don't remember
Harold Klemp saying that "Paul described the spiritual line of ECK
Masters, not for its historical accuracy based upon historical
records." What I read from Harold Klemp was: "It's more fun to find
out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK initiates go out
and find material about Sudar Singh themselves."
Judging on what I haven't been told, it appears that Sawan Singh
Kirpal Singh, and Paul Twitchell followed a similar path. But Kirpal
Singh added to (as well as continued) what Sawan Singh started.
Not that I am saying Sawan Singh started everything. I am sure that he
had masters too.
It also appears that Paul Twitchell both added to and continued
much of what was known about before his time. Paul Twitchell was
not Sawan or Kirpal Singh. And IMO neither was (or is) Eckankar.
In fact, according to what I have seen develop over the years,
Eckankar appears to be a teaching and a path that goes beyond
historical records. As if to give them second-rate importance com-
pared with other facets about the teachings.
Etznab
Tian Yue
traditions while incorporating the elements from them that were vital.
The concept of spiritual lineage was important, but the restrictions,
traditions and worship that go along with physical lineage was not.
Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for
its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to show
that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the spiritual Pole of
the world, and this light has passed from continent to continent, from
race to race, from culture to culture, down through time. [....]"
Doug Marman
This quote above is an excerpt from Doug Marman's website and is
quoted within the post below by Etznab.
My comments: There is no evidence that the spiritual lineage PT
referred to existed. No evidence of Sudar Singh, nor of Rebazar Tarz,
nor of any of the others. No photographs, nada. Zilch. Not one
scintilla of artifacts, not one old scroll, not one decaying
parchment, not one aging tablet. When one compares eckankar to other
ancient traditions, there is by comparison a striking difference
between them. In other traditions, a good record exists to fill in
much of the details of the historical figures that contributed to the
traditions. In eckankar, there is not. There is only PT. That's it.
Nothing more. His word alone, and no more. The glaring lack of
evidence says far, far more than all of the other telling details
about the real story of eckankar. Combine this with the plagiarism,
the discovered fabrications, the scandals and infighting between
eckankar's existing godmen, the disclosures about the empty
initiations from ex-initiators, the lack of prescience and other
abilities claimed, the lack of ability to truly read soul records, and
Rebazar's peculiar absence from duty (he could make a public
appearance to give eckankar some sorely needed credibility to save it
from its demise) and we have an obvious case of a guy who created his
own path by the use of fabrication. It is plain as day.
There is nothing spiritual about gullibility. Nothing sacred about
lies. Nothing holy about spiritual fraud. Nothing respectable about
exploitation. And there is nothing admirable about sycophants
continuing to pass on lengthy essays full of empty words that say
nothing new to support this fraud.
Tian Yue
Therre is no pole of the world, other than that which dwells within
each of us.
Rich
"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1175132972.5...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Here's a bunch of stuff on Sudar that I posted a while ago:
"We are making an effort to construct a physical history of ECKANKAR,
looking for actual physical records to verify the existence of some
of the ECK Masters in a way that historians of the future will be
able to accept; something beyond just the words of one of the Living
ECK Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."
"As we began research in a number of different areas around the
world, we got reports that Sudar Singh had lived and really was an
ECK Master. Many ECKists have experiences with Rebazar Tarzs, Yaubl
Sacabi, Fubbi Quantz, and other ECK Masters, but very few see Sudar
Singh. As it turns out, he did live and work in Allahabad. Paul
mentioned he died around the 1940s, but it seems to have been around
1955."
"The research we do today will someday be pored over by historians.
They will get into great debates about this or that crisis, about
this or that person. We are living the historical moments today,
and whatever later historians want to make of it for their own
unfoldment is up to them. For now, we continue to live our lives in
the mainstream of Spirit."
- Harold Klemp "The Secret Teachings" pg 246
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"One of the ECK Masters who worked here before Paul Twitchell brought
out the ECK message in 1965 was Sudar Singh."
"Sudar Singh lived in India around the turn of the century. He was
the son of a rich man; he could have taken his inheritance and lived
very well for the rest of his life, but instead he wanted to know
truth. One day he dressed himself in rags, though they were of a
good quality of cloth--it's hard to be humble when you can afford
better--and started out on the road to find truth. He had heard
about this Rebazar Tarzs, a teacher of some ancient wisdom who
lived up in the Himalayan Mountains, and decided to make contact with
him. Through inquires, he was directed to one of Rebazar Tarzs'
students who happened to be an important government official, so he
set off down the dusty road to find him. Arriving at the man's home
he was invited in and spent the next week asking question after
question of his host."
"The servant assigned to wait on Sudar Singh during his stay
happened to be Rebazar Tarzs in disguise, who was observing the
seeker very carefully as he brought him food and drink. Sudar Singh
looked into the teachings of ECK, and after about a week he
concluded that there was nothing in the teachings of ECKANKAR for
him. Very sadly, he left. Rebazar Tarzs merely stood by to see in
what direction he would go, giving him perfect freedom, perfect
choice."
"A year later, after looking into a number of other religious
teachings and getting nowhere, Sudar Singh had come to the end of
his rope. He wondered if there was anything left to live for. One
day wandering up in the foothills of the Himalayas, hungry and
tired, he fell into a light sleep. He awoke suddenly, and there
stood Rebazar Tarzs with a pitcher of milk to give him some
nourishment. This time Sudar Singh recognized him, and from that
point he began earnestly to make his own steps on the path to God."
- Harold Klemp "How To Find God" pg 43
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Q: "Was there a Living ECK Master before 1965?"
HK: "Yes, there was. This was Sudar Singh from India who died
in the 1940s. Then Rebazar Tarzs, the torchbearer of the leadership
of ECK who had been the Living ECK Master some time before, came in.
He took the leadership until 1965, when Paul Twitchell had earned
the right. Paul Twitchell had to earn it, as did all the others.
There has been an unbroken succession of ECK Masters that goes quite
far back. Some of them are described in 'The Spiritual
Notebook.'"
"At different times the ECK Masters have worked quietly in the
background. Up until 1965, most of the teachings were given on a
one-to-one basis because of persecution. And as I said, these
Masters were not interested in doing miracles for followers or in
being out front and taking credit for a lot of things, either."
"Yes, there have been a number of Living ECK Masters leading up
to the present, and there will be others after me. I'm already
working to get myself to the next position. That's what we
always do: work ourselves into the next step, whether it's in our
job or in our spiritual life."
- Harold Klemp "How To Find God" pg 162
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mark Alexander wrote:
For anyone interested in verifying the existence of Sudar Singh,
contact:
Manoranjan Bhattacharya,
Madhab Niwas, P.O. Nona Chandan Pukur,
Dist. 24 Parganas,
W.Bengal, India
Please keep in mind that he is 84 years old. This information has
been provided by the ECKists mentioned by Sri Harold. I would be
happy to pass to them on any thoughtful queries.
Mr. Bhattacharya has indicated that Sudar Singh was alive in 1938. He
did not meet him after that for he did not visit Allahabad afterwards
until the 60's. He does not know when Sudar Singh died.
Mr. Bhattacharya was not interested in Sudar Singh's teachings.
'Sudar Singh' is an extremely uncommon name in India. It is not a
simplified version of 'Sudarshan', which is more usual. There was
another saint at that time in North India called 'Sundar Singh'.
During the taped interview with Mr. Bhattacharya, he never wavered
about the name. On the other hand 'Singh' is one of the most common
surnames in India.
Mr. Bhattacharya is totally unaware of Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar
for that matter. However, he did assert that there were foreigners
staying at the ashram at the time he sought shelter.
The ECKists did get a list of names from Mr. Bhattacharya of others
who might still be alive who knew Sudar Singh. However, after such a
long time, it is difficult to trace people since many have passed on.
(The above was written several years ago, )
(and a few people including myself have written him,)
(but no one that I know received answers. -RS )
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sudar Singh is another man of mystery. In his case, some critics say
that he never existed, that he was just a figment of Paul's fertile
imagination. The passing of time now reveals additional proof that
Sudar Singh did indeed exist. As Paul stated, his ashram was in
Allahabad, India.
This time our thanks go out to two Eckists from Sweden, Bani and
Glenn Sodermark. They made the long journey to India, Bani's home,
to try to uncover the mystery of Sudar Singh's existence for
themselves if possible.
Their journey was hard. There were many false leads as they tried to
trace accounts about the elusive ECK Master. But they had followed
their inner nudges from the Mahanta all the way to India, and there
they continued to follow one lead after another.
One day, near the end of their visit to India, a visitor came to
there home. He was an old man. Now about eighty-three years old.
Manoranjan Bhattacharya had been a participant in India's struggle
for independence. He is also a priest for Hindu religious
ceremonies.
During a lull in the conversation, Glenn happened to ask him whether
he had heard of Sudar Singh. They were stunned to hear that he
actually had.
He had visited Sudar Singh's ashram three times; the last time was
in 1938. The British had a warrant out for his arrest in connection
with his revolutionary activities. He had sought a place of shelter
from many prominent people in Allahabad, including the Nehru family,
but had been refused. However, Sudar Singh had been very welcoming
and blessed Mr. Bhattacharya, and that kind reception in the past
made him very indignant now to hear of how critics' allegations that
Sudar Singh did not exist. He trusted the Sodermarks to set the
record straight.
Mr. Bhattacharya told them that he probably would have forgotten the
incident after so many years if his life had not been at stake at
the time. He was also very intrigued that anyone today would want
to know of Sudar Singh, who had been a relative unknown on the
Indian guru scene.
In a written statement, witnessed by two doctors, Mr. Bhattacharya
further adds that the ashram was located "behind a market on the
main road, five or six minutes walking distance from Jawaharla
Nehru's house, Anand Bhawan, in Allahabad." The ashram had four or
five rooms. One prayer room. The others were for members of the
ashram: two or three bathrooms and a kitchen. There was also a
garden.
- Harold Klemp "Wisdom of the Heart" Book 2 P.57
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
David's accusations that Paul was trying to cover up his past,
when Paul began redacting the names of his previous teachers, also
fell apart. My book showed that David's three proposed motivations,
which he claimed were Paul's reasons for editing his own writing,
were all at odds with the facts.
First, Kirpal never shared his criticisms of The Tiger's Fang
to Paul, which even David now admits. So, "The Tiger's Fang
incident," as David called it, could not explain why Paul began
removing Kirpal's name from his writings. Second, there was no
emerging empire for Paul to protect at the time, as David implied,
but in fact quite the opposite, since both Paul and his wife Gail
were barely making ends meet. Third, Paul didn't begin removing
references to his previous teachers so that he could start
ECKANKAR, since he actually began the practice one year after he
started ECKANKAR. Before then he had openly given credit to
those teachers.
This last point came as a surprise to David, since he wrote
in his book that the practice started in 1964. However, even
though David brought up a number of references and tried to argue
this point, not a single case of name replacement shows up in
Paul's writings until mid-to-late 1966.
However, what did come to light, strangely enough, was the
fact that David himself had redacted one of the names in Paul's
writings, in his own book. Ken Stoltzfus wrote the following post
about this surprising news that Rich Smith had discovered:
Let me see if I understand this correctly. In the original
"Making" book, David Lane skipped over the name Sudar Singh
and replaced it with "...". Then in the web version he simply
DELETED the name, ellipsis and all? Which in effect changed
the intended meaning of the author?
If that's true then it's pretty clear that David Lane changed
the words that someone else wrote in order to present his
theory in a better light. He deliberately deceived his readers
And Joe laughs it off while Lurk ignores it, all the while
calling Paul Twitchell a liar because he changed *his own words*.
Michael's right. This is bizarre.
David tried to argue that Sudar's name in this article was a
name replacement for one of Paul's other teachers, but Sudar's
name was side by side with Kirpal's name, as well as Swami
Premananda's name.
I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that
show the same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called,
Can You Be In Two Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh,
from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of England, a
Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal
Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.
The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the
November 1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul
talks about Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...
through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These
examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were
referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late
1966 before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh.
The whole problem with David's argument is that Paul merely
edited his own writing. There is nothing wrong with this. David is
trying to tell us, however, that Paul's motivation for doing this
was to cover up his past. David doesn't have a single piece of
evidence to support that this was Paul's motivation, but for over
20 years David has been proclaiming this as if it were a fact.
The truth is, however, that the only quote we have from Paul
that shows his motivations is the quote that I reprinted in
Chapter Five, which makes it clear that the reason Paul referred
to Kirpal in his book, The Flute of God, when it was first
serialized, was because he felt that Kirpal was sympathetic with
his work. Therefore, when Paul learned that Kirpal was no longer
sympathetic, which it appears he learned in mid-1966, then this
offers a perfect explanation why Paul removed references to Kirpal
in his published writings.
David didn't let this matter drop easily, however. He argued
his side over a long series of posts. For example, the following
is from one of these series:
DAVID WROTE:
Twitchell was not as open about his teachers as you claim.
Tell me how many references do we see to L. Ron Hubbard?
Your point, apparently, is that Kirpal got nasty against
Twitch in 66.
Okay, show US the PROOF...
That seems to be a reasonable request.
DOUG WROTE:
How many references do we see to L. Ron Hubbard? Well, let's
see, David, how many articles altogether do we see before 1965
by Paul? [Not many.]
How many of them have some reference to one of his teachers? I
think the percentage is quite high [well over 50%]...
You have presented nothing more than a theory and a hypothesis.
I have shown how the evidence doesn't jive with your theory. So,
I've offered another theory. I've shown evidence to support my
hypothesis, and I've shown that it's consistent with the evidence
available.
If you want to prove my theory wrong, all you have to do is
show quotes where Paul redacted Kirpal's name before 1966.
DAVID WROTE:
Dear Doug:
I don't think you get it.
Eckankar wasn't "officially" founded until October 22, 1965.
1966 is just two plus moths away.
So, just a couple of months after Eckankar is officially
founded guess what we find?
Kirpal's name redacted.
DOUG WROTE:
No, David, it turns out that we do not find Kirpal's name being
redacted just a couple months after ECKANKAR was officially
founded.
Go back and check your quotes. Paul ran three or four chapters
of The Flute of God in Orion magazine that contained Kirpal's
name. This continued until mid-1966. Then suddenly [in the
November 1966 installment] none of the further chapters
contained Kirpal's name. And suddenly all the books and
materials written and printed by Paul after that no longer
contain Kirpal's name.
DAVID WROTE:
I have shown you an article in 1964 with the name of Sudar Singh
in it.
DOUG WROTE:
The 1964 article that you showed with Sudar Singh's name also
includes Kirpal's name. So this isn't evidence of name
redaction.
The other quote with Sudar Singh's name that occurred before
the founding of ECKANKAR was the quote that you redacted Sudar
Singh's name from. That quote also included Kirpal and
Premananda's name.
DAVID WROTE:
Doug:
If I understand your theory correctly, then Paul edits out
Kirpal's name because Kirpal dissed Paul...
There may be a simpler explanation to all of this:
AFTER Paul creates Eckankar...he just changes the name
infrastructure and sets himself up with a past that CANNOT be
traced historically.
Not to sound like Church Lady, but isn't that convenient?
DOUG WROTE:
No, David, you apparently do not understand my theory correctly.
I showed a quote from Paul where he clearly states that his
reason for mentioning Kirpal's name is because he feels Kirpal
is sympathetic with Paul's work. It has nothing to do with
Kirpal dissing Paul. Even if Kirpal politely stopped being
supportive, or politely disagreed with Paul, that would be
enough reason for Paul, based on his own words, to no longer
continue referring to Kirpal.
However, we know from Kirpal's own words that he became openly
critical about Paul. So, it was not just a matter of polite
disagreement...
Your "simpler" explanation doesn't fit the facts. Look at the
Orion magazine printings of The Flute of God chapters. The
first few chapters that ran to mid-1966 include Kirpal's name,
as well as the name of Paul's other teachers. This proves the
changes did not begin when ECKANKAR was officially founded, or
even a few months later.
You see, David, it was when I realized that Paul was still
openly referring to the names of these other teachers well
after he began ECKANKAR, that was when I had to ask myself,
well, why did Paul suddenly change his approach?
After reading this series of posts, Len Campbell-Rossen posted
the following:
David's book now looks like a staccato of facts, hearsay, half
and wrong information. Some information, which was not
investigated by David before he put them into his book
[Len then refers to the facts in Chapter Four where almost
everything David wrote was wrong]...
But it's the glue, that invisible element, that has risen-up
to become much more pronounced for me in David's book. It's
really the emotion, the "sap" which glues the pieces together.
Negative, angry, inflexible, intangible glue.
This is what Deborah Tannen called "sneer."
However, perhaps the most significant problem with David's
argument that Paul was trying to cover up his past, came after I
read the following post on David's ECKANKAR newsgroup, written by
an ECKist who posted under the name of TuzaHu:
I got in Eckankar when I was in the 8th grade. A local neighbor
introduced me to the teaching who knew Paul back in the old
days with Kirpal Singh (Vandella Walker) who, at the time was
the highest initiate in ECK (a 7th at the time). Through
Vandella I got to spend a lot of time with Paul...
This was when I was a new Eckist in Ohio. I got in Eck in 1968
and can remember when Paul had a good deal of hair left!!!
After reading this, I then remembered how many of the early
ECKists had followed Paul from Kirpal's group and from L. Ron
Hubbard's group. The idea of Paul trying to cover up or deny his
previous associations with those teachers is ridiculous. There were
way too many in ECK who knew all about Paul's past. David's whole
theory just doesn't work.
TuzaHu went on to write some other interesting things about the
interesting time he spent with Camille Ballowe, Paul's first wife:
Off the top of my head I can recall a few interesting things.
She and Paul dated in High School...
Paul also was involved in the beginning of Scientology and
wanted to teach Soul Travel but L. Ron would have nothing to do
with it. [I have heard this same thing from a number of old
timers, even though David refuses to accept it. DM.]
Paul was a promoter for a while with actor Jimmy Durante and
baseball star Dizzy Dean...Paul was a born promoter...
Paul was practicing forms of Astral Projection, as it sounds
from his early years according to her. He would sit for hours
at the kitchen table staring into a flame from an oil lamp he
had. He did that for years, hours on end. He later wrote and
published a song that was recorded called "the Lamp."
According to her Paul had a deep spiritual side, he read the
Bible almost every day for many years along with other
spiritual books. His interest in out of the body movement was
his main interest, but little was written about it. He called
it dreamwalking at the time. He wanted to control and teach it
from the time they married.
This information completely undermines the idea that David has
tried to promote; that Paul learned out of the body travel from
Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh, in the 50's. In fact, Paul had
always been interested in spiritual truth, as Camille said, even in
his teens.
By the time Paul wrote "The Lamp," when he was in his twenties,
Paul was making a serious study of Soul Travel, although he called
it by a different name back then.
Therefore, when Scientology started, in 1952, Paul was already
proficient at out-of-body projection and was trying to help others
learn these techniques. This is completely contrary to David's
story. David's perspective started from the assumption that Paul's
teaching was merely a rip-off of Sant Mat, which Paul did not run
across until 1955, along with a splattering of what Paul learned
from Swami Premananda in the early 50's.
To summarize: David didn't have proof that Darwin was covering
something up. Even David admits this. David's claims that Paul was
covering up his past have also fallen apart. And as we have seen in
Chapter Ten, Harold brought out and spoke about Paul's past over a
period of years and numerous articles, contrary to David's
assertions.
Therefore, the whole basis of David's book, that ECKANKAR
covered up some terrible information, is without any real support.
It was a myth of David's creation.
(...)
Only a few chapters back, I talked about how the ECK Masters
have taught the practice of belief, not like something that we need
to passively accept, but as an active verb - To Believe. It is like
trying on a cloak to see how it feels and to experience the state
of consciousness where such a belief can take us. How else can you
discover what is really there?
Once we try believing what Paul wrote, we have a chance to
experience that change in consciousness Paul was trying to
communicate. Then we can realize how insignificant these outer facts
really are, and how little they prove. We should never imagine that
a person's human side contains or limits their true Self or their
true Reality.
Etznab
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Rich,
I wrote a long follow-up response to your post this afternoon.
Strangely, it did not post. And (unfortunately) I did not wait to
see if it did.
Anyway, thanks for all that what you shared.
Etznab
Tian Yue
all hearsay, wishful thinking, grasping at straws. Klemp wisely stays
out of it, because he's helpless to find the one or two brother eck
masters that co-exist with him on the planet. Odd that among three eck
masters said to be on planet earth, two out of three are missing.
It is, in my view, very telling that Klemp wants to allow eckists to
find Sudar on their own, without using his "abilities" to find the
man. How odd that we have a missing eck master. One would think, that
at one of those amazing gatherings such as at the Valley of Tirmir
where the Masters get together, Klemp could amble over to Sudar and
ask him where he's been hanging out lately. It seems that in every
instance in which the powers of an eck master could come in handy for
eckankar and its suffering credibility, the soul travel abilities are
glaringly lacking. Klemp can't find Sudar? Can any eckist point to one
instance in eckankar's history in which the abilities of an eck master
were really needed to give them a hand were evident for all to see?
And what could possibly be wrong with Rebazar or Sudar showing up just
once to give an interview or lecture? The obvious answer is, they
can't, and they never will, because they simply don't exist. Occam's
Razor would seem to nicely apply here: the simplest answer is often
the best explanation.
Tian Yue
Rich
"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote
> Rich,
>
> I wrote a long follow-up response to your post this afternoon.
> Strangely, it did not post.
What's up with that?
I know it's very frustrating. It still happens occasionally when I'm on
Yahoo Groups. I think that is the result of opening other windows and
getting confused as to which is which...
Are you writing using html instead of plain text?
I had that problem with Usenet until I started using the paid client
Newsguy.
What I used to do(especially with long responses) was to copy what I wrote
and paste it into notepad. Then if I lost it, I could always go back and
repost it.
` o
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~/|
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/ | \
-/ | \
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Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
Tian Yue
still working on the new format. I try to remember to copy a post
before hitting the send button (when posting from the actual a.r.e.
site). Then I can paste it back in if something goes wrong, which is
frequent as of late on google.
Tian Yue
cher
Lots of proof and yet, guess what? <grinning>
Etznab
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've started doing that too. But I don't always remember to copy
every post.
Etznab