ECKANKAR should be sued and shut down under the US federal 'False Claims Act'

[Henosis Sage]

ECKANKAR should be sued and shut down under the US federal 'False Claims Act'

Someone should tell these people to get real and do the job properly
- plus make a small fortune in the process http://eckankarlawsuit.jimdo.com

Take this current court case against Lance Armstrong: a known liar who repeatedly made false claims and gained financial advantage from the US Government because of those lies, that FRAUD.

ECKANKAR has had the advantage of Religious TAX FREE Status afforded it by the US GOVT since 1970. That status is founded entirely upon the Fraud and Lies of Twitchell, Gross and Klemp to this day.

a cpl of extracts:

"The lawsuit was filed by Armstrong’s former US Postal Service teammate Floyd Landis. The federal government joined in 2013 after Armstrong publicly admitted he cheated to win the Tour de France seven times from 1999-2005. Armstrong was stripped of those titles and banned from competition.


"Armstrong has also taken huge hits financially, losing all his major sponsors and being forced to pay more than $10m in damages and settlements in a series of lawsuits. The Landis lawsuit would be the biggest by far, and the ruling from US district judge Christopher Cooper in Washington was a major setback for Armstrong with a trial most likely in the fall.

"Landis, himself a former doping cheat who was stripped of his 2006 Tour de France title, sued Armstrong under the federal False Claims Act, alleging Armstrong and his team committed fraud against the government when they cheated while riding under the Postal Service banner. According to court records, the contract paid the team, which was operated by Tailwind Sports Corp, about $32m from 2000 to 2004. Armstrong got nearly $13.5m.

"The law allows Landis and the government to sue to get that money back and for “treble” damages, or triple the amount, and Armstrong could be forced to pay all of it. Landis stands to receive up to 25% of any damages awarded."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/14/lance-armstrong-lawsuit-government-fraud


The False Claims Act (31 U.S.C. §§ 3729–3733, also called the "Lincoln Law") is an American federal law that imposes liability on persons and companies (typically federal contractors) who defraud governmental programs.

It is the federal Government's primary litigation tool in combating fraud against the Government.[1]

The law includes a qui tam provision that allows people who are not affiliated with the government, called "relators" under the law, to file actions on behalf of the government (informally called "whistleblowing" especially when the relator is employed by the organization accused in the suit). Persons filing under the Act stand to receive a portion (usually about 15–25 percent) of any recovered damages.

As of 2012, over 70 percent of all federal Government FCA actions were initiated by whistleblowers.

Claims under the law have typically involved health care, military, or other government spending programs, and dominate the list of largest pharmaceutical settlements.

The government recovered $38.9 billion under the False Claims Act between 1987 and 2013 and of this amount, $27.2 billion or 70% was from qui tam cases brought by relators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Claims_Act

31 U.S. Code § 3729 - False claims
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/3729

[sign...@gmail.com]

That's a bit like me saying Christianity should be sued and shut down for making "false claims". ECKANKAR is a religion. ECKANKAR is real. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't make it less so. It makes no claims that the sincere chela cannot prove for himself.

The failure of people to meet the ECK Masters, see the Light, hear the Sound and advance spiritually is not the fault of the teachings. If it were, then nobody would have any spiritual success on the path at all.

It remains by far the best thing that ever happened to me. More importantly, I do the Spiritual Exercises of ECK every single day. You can read from morning till night but, without these, you are heading backwards.

All this anger of yours will damage your health if you are not careful. Do yourself a favour. Find a religion that works for you and pursue it with all your heart. This anti-ECKANKAR crusade you are on is going nowhere.

You'll probably respond to this with predictable anger. A pity.

[wernertrp]

A new eckist family is born.
Fresh from outer space.
Das Dorf der Verdammten:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU8HI7DpXvY

[Henosis Sage]

RE: "All this anger of yours will damage your health if you are not careful. Do yourself a favour."

Paul Twitchell did speak out to avoid the use of black magic and psychism did he not? Boomerangs and all that jazz. :-)


A Metaphor

The commissioners are now seeking to understand why clergy abuse occurred on such a massive scale within the church, why the response to complaints was so flawed, and what has been done internally to address the cultural, structural, and governance factors that contributed.

A conveyor-belt of witnesses all expressed shock and deep sorrow at the staggering statistics that were produced by the commission’s counsel assisting, Gail Furness, SC, at the outset of this month’s hearing. One in 14 Catholic clergy were accused of abuse by 4,444 victims over six decades. In some individual orders that rate increased to a staggering one in five.

The worst order, the St John of God brothers, had 40% of religious brothers accused of abuse.

Experts, parish priests, bishops and archbishops have all been asked why the church experienced abuse at such endemic levels. Their testimony has ranged from the profound to the underwhelming.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/25/i-went-to-bed-screaming-child-abuse-survivor-speaks-as-church-faces-moment-of-reckoning

but I was one of the lucky ones

It was many years before I started to truly appreciate the full effect that the Catholic education system of the 1970s and early 80s had on my psyche. From the Brothers I retain, and cherish, a sense of what's often called "Catholic social justice": a deeply held belief that what's important in life is to make some form of difference to society, no matter what you do and no matter how small your contribution; that treating everyone as your equal is important; that your goals in life should rise above the simple pursuit of material wealth.

How odd then that I also learned from them how base and brutal and petty human beings can be.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-23/child-sex-abuse-royal-commission-one-of-the-lucky-ones/8296986

--- --- ---

Cognitive Science and Human Psychology

Festinger's (1957) cognitive dissonance theory suggests that we have an inner drive to hold all our attitudes and beliefs in harmony and avoid disharmony (or dissonance).

Attitudes may change because of factors within the person. An important factor here is the principle of cognitive consistency, the focus of Festinger's (1957) theory of cognitive dissonance. This theory starts from the idea that we seek consistency in our beliefs and attitudes in any situation where two cognitions are inconsistent.

Leon Festinger (1957) proposed cognitive dissonance theory, which states that a powerful motive to maintain cognitive consistency can give rise to irrational and sometimes maladaptive behavior.

According to Festinger, we hold many cognitions about the world and ourselves; when they clash, a discrepancy is evoked, resulting in a state of tension known as cognitive dissonance. As the experience of dissonance is unpleasant, we are motivated to reduce or eliminate it, and achieve consonance (i.e. agreement).

Cognitive dissonance was first investigated by Leon Festinger, arising out of a participant observation study of a cult which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood, and what happened to its members — particularly the really committed ones who had given up their homes and jobs to work for the cult — when the flood did not happen.

While fringe members were more inclined to recognize that they had made fools of themselves and to "put it down to experience", committed members were more likely to re-interpret the evidence to show that they were right all along (the earth was not destroyed because of the faithfulness of the cult members).

[...]

Forced Compliance Behavior

When someone is forced to do (publicly) something they (privately) really don't want to do, dissonance is created between their cognition (I didn't want to do this) and their behavior (I did it).

Forced compliance occurs when an individual performs an action that is inconsistent with his or her beliefs. The behavior can't be changed, since it was already in the past, so dissonance will need to be reduced by re-evaluating their attitude to what they have done.

http://www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.html

So you've sold your home, quit your job, shunned your colleagues, abandoned your friends and family. The end of the world is nigh, and you 'know for a fact' that you are one of the chosen few who will be swept up from the 'great flood' approaching on 21st December at midnight to be flown to safety on a far off planet.

And then midnight on 21st December comes around and there is no flood. No end of the world. No flying saucer to the rescue. No nothing (to use a double negative).

What do you do? Admit you were wrong? Acknowledge that you gave up position, money, friends - for nothing? Tell yourself and others you have been a schmuck?

Not on your life.

Leon Festinger: On being stood up by the aliens

Social psychologist Leon Festinger infiltrated a flying saucer doomsday cult in the late 1950s. The members of this cult had given up everything on the premise that the world was about to self destruct and that they, because of their faith, would be the sole survivors. In the lead up to the fateful day, the cult shunned publicity and shied away from journalists. Festinger posed as a cultist and was present when the space ship failed to show up. He was curious about what would happen. How would the disappointed cultists react to the failure of their prophecy? Would they be embarrassed and humiliated? What actually happened amazed him.

Cognitive dissonance: Who are you kidding?

Now, after the non-event, the cultists suddenly wanted publicity. They wanted media attention and coverage. Why? So they could explain how their faith and obedience had helped save the planet from the flood. The aliens had spared planet earth for their sake - and now their new role was to spread the word and make us all listen. This fascinated Festinger. He observed that the real driving force behind the cultists' apparently inexplicable response was the need, not to face the awkward and uncomfortable truth and 'change their minds', but rather to 'make minds comfortable' - to smooth over the unacceptable inconsistencies.
You can't handle the truth!

Festinger coined the term 'cognitive dissonance' to describe the uncomfortable tension we feel when we experience conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions), or engage in behavior that is apparently opposed to our stated beliefs. What is particularly interesting is the lengths to which people will go to reduce the inner tension without accepting that they might, in fact, be wrong. They will accept almost any form of relief, other than admitting being at fault, or mistaken.

If a person believes, for example, that they are not racist, but then discriminates against someone on the basis of race, this faces them with the discomfort of acknowledging that they are racist after all. In an attempt to escape this discomfort, they will seek to rationalize (explain away) their behavior on some other grounds, which may be spurious, but which allow them to hold on to their otherwise discredited belief.

http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/stop-lying.html

[wernertrp]

Scientology has never been sued with success.
But it's 100 more worse than Eckankar.

[Oscar Levant]

"Henosis Sage" <pee.tee....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:51b5a60f-fbef-43a0...@googlegroups.com...

The Catholic Church promises eternal salvation if you accept Jesus as your
savior.

Are you going to sue them, too? What about the other100,000 religions?

Just leave, and move on.

[wernertrp]

You have topped me by the factor of 2.
Some times I proclaim the number of 50 000 religions on earth.

[MichaelT...@yahoo.com]

Are you opposed to Sant Mat in general, or just Eckankar as a specific Sant Mat organization?

[Kinpa]

On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 12:08:24 PM UTC-4, MichaelT...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Are you opposed to Sant Mat in general, or just Eckankar as a specific Sant Mat organization?

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Claiming it to be a "specific Sant Mat organization" is arguable at best. While many DO make that claim, they also ignore many other parts of the path itself. It has at least as much in common with international Sufism as it does Sant Mat. Then there are many parts of Sikhism that can also be found, as well as Gnosticism and any number of other paths. While Eckankar DOES use Param Sant Tulsi Sahib's cosmology and plane structure, even Sant Mat itself is made up of many other previous paths. For that reason, looking at any religious or spiritual path solely as being a part of another path is to ignore that ALL religions and paths originate from Shamanism, which this same individual has called Black Magic despite that not being the actual case. Of course, you can have any opinion that you choose concerning Eckankar, I just thought it pertinent to point out that Sant Mat is hardly the singular origin of it.


To go further in answer to the original post, I will say that opinions are nice, but I would never be caught holding my breath with the expectation that it would ever happen. And the claim that none ever accomplish what is promised is also false. Many others claim to have experienced and accomplished many things that it promises. The fact that this individual calls each and every one of those persons mentally ill speaks more to his own laziness than it does to anything about the nature of the organization or the path. Eckankar is never going anywhere. If in your opinion it fails to give you the experiences it claims, then a person can simply leave and find something that suits them better. Not a very big deal. So why is it that some choose to create such a big deal out of it? Perhaps they desire attention, or perhaps it is something else. Regardless, it is, and will always be their own responsibility to accept that they alone brought themselves to the place they find themselves in at the present. No religion is ever responsible for that, despite the many who try to claim otherwise.

[Kinpa]

> Are you going to sue them, too? What about the other 100,000 religions?

>
> Just leave, and move on.

-----------------------------------------

This is plain common sense.Well said.

[artp...@yahoo.com]

just Eckankar.

Eckankar is anti-life anti-freedom anti-knowledge anti-wisdom anti-truth and untrustworthy and it's leadership corrupt.

Eckankar is not true, not valid as a 'religious path' and fraudulent.

[MichaelT...@yahoo.com]

The question remains, do you also think Sant Mat in general is bad?

[Henosis Sage]

On Wednesday, 5 April 2017 02:47:29 UTC+10, MichaelT...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The question remains, do you also think Sant Mat in general is bad?
>

It's a pity people / eckists either do not know or intentionally ignore where Sant Mat's roots grow out of philosophies and religions along the lines of sufi islam, islam, hinduism and the Sikhs who also draw form both hindu/islamic lineages and gurus and paths.

AND that the only reason these kinds of teachings and ideas and terminology show up in Twitchell's eckankar is because it's from those very paths and their books that twitchell got the 'stories', morals, and cosmologies to talk about (and plagiarise from).

Just because sufi sikh ideas turn up in eckankar books doesn't mean it has anything really to do with such paths or teachers of itself nor for Paul Twitchell and what he "believed" or thought about stuff.

It's no more than an obvious coincidence what is found in the writings by Twitchell ... he plagiarised his entire teaching from others and stuck all that in a blender set on high. :-)

Sincere seekers have a way of being able to just sail over unnecessary distractions presented by attention seekers like Twitchell and find the higher quality sources anyway and/or work it out for themselves. imo. Most get lost entirely in the maze never to be seen nor heard from again.

[isydo...@gmail.com]

The HU that makes Devotees forget WHO they are!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gzSsqMgCk

[Kinpa]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This guy talks a lot but knows not what any "higher quality sources" even are. This guy operates on 100% belief and assumption, but 0% experience. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and all, but they still amount to nothing but opinion. Plagiarism is entirely irrelevant. Twitchell made up nothing. That is why this person is unable to to prove anything of importance concerning Eckankar. Eckankar goes on existing and it will for quite a long time. The claimed complaint has no tracks. It is entirely ineffective and will accomplish nothing, but I suppose that everyone has a right to dream their dreams! Such desperation is not pretty however...

[Kinpa]

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 11:28:33 AM UTC-4, isydo...@gmail.com wrote:
> The HU that makes Devotees forget WHO they are!
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gzSsqMgCk

Feel free to prove your claim~!

[sign...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 8:57:07 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

Comrade Sage,

Maybe when this purposeless, pointless lawsuit goes nowhere you'll finally heed my advice to find a religion that works for you before this precious lifetime is over.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Which is entirely your opinion. For many others, myself included, the guidance and company of the ECK Masters is one of sweetest miracles of all time.

[Henosis Sage]

Blah blah blah Robert.

What is about you that makes you such an obnoxious arrogant jerk that you believe
you have any right or authority to give unasked for advice to others such as
"to [go] find a religion that works for you..."


Like what is it about YOUR personality and lack of respect for others that you
find it kosher to opine that you're qualified to begin with?

Your functioning at the very same MO level as islamic extremists and terrorists!
Their hubris and psychopathy deems themselves as qualified and authorised to
impose their RELIGIOUS VIEWS & MORALITY upon anyone else they deem deserves it.

Kinpoop the arrogant narcissistic psychopathic creep who has a made lifetime
abusing other people FOR FUN ... does the same shit in his life 24/7.

Now you may not be as EXTREME as these two examples but what you all do is CUT
FROM THE SAME CLOTH~!!!

It's the same PSYCHOLOGY ... the idealism and the religion is besides the point.

So if you want to LISTEN to me for once, do so, or don't.

You do not have a friggin' clue about me.

You do not understand a THING I have ever said here that you have commented on.

I know that for certain.

I did not join eckankar as a friggin' RELIGION... I was NOT looking for a RELIGION.

I had had enough of frailties and damage done by religion before I was 12 years old !!!!

A pre-teen old man in a young body iow.

ECKANKAR changed ... I did not. My values were good and solid before during and
after Eckankar.

The people I first met via eckankar were wonderful people .... they were NOTHING
like you or Kinpa are here.

They had a genuine RESPECT for others and people's boundaries. They were kind
loving generous and decent people.

Over 25 years that PERSONAL EXPERIENCE CHANGED significantly .... to become maybe
less than 20% in Eckankar were still like that.

Harold Klemp changed.

The RESAs changed.

The culture changed.

The teachings changed.

The good people kept leaving and a different type of "eckist" arrived.

And Eckankar became just another dead RELIGION.... whose primary reason for
being was it's OWN SURVIVAL and it's OWN FALSE MYTHOLOGIES.

I am not YOUR COMRADE.

We have nothing in common besides both being human who breathe the same air.

I think you're a gullible fool.

I do not care what you do about that.

It's not my business, merely my own opinion based on the prevailing historical
evidence of your own comments and your insistence to totally ignore everything
I have ever said directly to you in response.

Which is why I have not bothered for years to say boo to you.

This comment is for the benefit of others ... not for you ROBERT.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Comrade Sage,
Shame about the lawsuit against ECKANKAR. I know how much you were looking forward to being a star witness

Don't worry. You'll get the chance one day to publicly blame ECKANKAR for making you such an angry, abusive, self-righteous dude with problems forming relationships.

[Henosis Sage]

------

LMAO.

Aaaah, here's that damned mirror again --- "such an angry, abusive, self-righteous dude with problems forming relationships."

Had a bad week have you? Imagine it will make you feel better by venting your frustrations at me and others online? That's not going to work Robert. It's not detachment nor being very Vairagi of you Robert.

It's not my fault if your being 'bullied/mobbed' or being the 'bully' at work. Not my fault that you have to regularly cope with racial prejudice either. btw how is your career in 'finance' going ... 2007/08 wasn't a one off, so i hope you have been saving for unexpected events.

and re "I know how much you were looking forward to being a star witness"

There you go again ... who ever you are listening to with zero discernment, it certainly is not any ECK/SPIRIT Masters Mr. Fuck-Knuckle.

But whatever/whoever you are they certainly got you by the balls brother!

Me, well I have nothing to 'worry' about. I know who I am, I know my spiritual name and I know what this silly game is all about.

Not only that but I do not give a shit what some silly gullible fool in England thinks, says or believes. Ya can't touch me bro nor push my buttons.

So please reconsider your approach and your beliefs. Both are wrong. :-)

This may be of help you - but only once you realise you need it.
http://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling-psychologist-london.htm

Not very financial? then go here: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/Pages/free-therapy-or-counselling.aspx

You can fuck off now Robert! :-)

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 6 August 2017 03:29:22 UTC+10, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

----

Perhaps this may be of some assistance Robert?

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/TMRcPk90hco

Though you have never properly read anything else useful and genuine I have responded to you with for several years, so no need to start today mate!!!

LMAO

Bye!

[Leaving Eckankar]

sounds like you are engaging in the no true Scotsman fallacy. Also, you are blaming the seeker for not experiencing the promises of eckankar. this is a cult-tactic to "blame the victim" of failure to advance spiritually. if a claim is true (i.e., if you do the spiritual exercises you will meet the mahanta), then it is not the fault of the seeker if they do not experience this. calming that only a "true chela" will experience spiritual freedom, truth, and so on, is the no-true Scotsman fallacy and very harmful. what about all the many members of eckankar who are still there who do their SEs every day and nothing changes? You might say "they are not doing it right", "they are not ready," or "it is their karma that they have not experienced something." What ever you might say in response is also a claim that you are making on someone else's "spiritual progress" that YOU can know absolutely nothing about. If you are going to make a claim, prove it. Provide evidence that what you are saying is true. Personal experience is not good evidence as it cannot be tested, verified, or replicated. Provide good evidence that any claim you are making or that eckankar is making is true. Good evidence is something we can observe and test, verify and retest, and validate. Personal experience does not fall into that category. If that were the case (that personal experience is good evidence) than eye-witness testimony would be enough to convict someone of a crime. Multiple studies on memory and eye-witness testimony show that this type of evidence is extremely flawed and is not reliable enough to make a positive claim on something purported to be true.

Also, if personal experience were enough to prove that something is true and right, then we would have to believe the personal experiences of everyone else in every other religion. Therefore everyone who experiences jesus, allah, shiva and so on would need to be believed without question. Also anyone who experiences fairies, ghosts, aliens, witches are to be believed without question. However, the teaching of the various religions that believe in these particular gods or super natural phenomena are contradictory to each other and not all can be true. So how do YOU know that what YOU believe is true when you are using personal experience as your "good evidence"?

Your comments on anger are misguided. Anger is a natural human emotion that a person might feel who has been wrong, betrayed, or traumatized. many people in Eckankar have experienced being wronged, betrayed, and traumatized. yet the writings of Eckankar say that expressing anger is just the Kal and that it is to be avoided. I can find multiple stories written by HK claiming that when something traumatic happens to someone it is that person's fault because they expressed anger. This is extremely toxic, manipulative, and dangerous. Teaching members of Eckankar to never feel angry is a way to ignore the betrayals that are happening in the religion itself and to blame themselves for experiencing those betrayals. this keeps them hooked in the cult, remaining passive, and too scared to leave. all traditional cult-tactics!

I suggest you read "Recovering Agency" by Luna Lindsey who was former LDS member who was able to escape the church. The book does an excellent job outlining cult tactics and their impacts. You will find eckankar uses and employs every single one.

[Etznab]

"... what about all the many members of eckankar who are still there who do their SEs every day and nothing changes?"

This type of question comes up again and again. The typical answer is that some people don't need experiences, whereas some people do. It's why, generally speaking, new members have more phenomenal experiences and older members do not. It's because the former need them whereas the latter don't "need" them.

If you're one of those enthusiastic, or overenthusiastic members who like to brag about their experiences then that is what it is. At the same time, such persons have no place telling other members they are not doing the SE correctly and it's why they don't have experiences. A first-year Eckankar member would know this, yet some older clergy (the "wolves" as Harold called them) sometimes like to forget.

[Leaving Eckankar]

Etznab,

I am familiar with this explanation, but I can't tell if you agree with it or not. On the chance you agree with this explanation, I am going to push back. But if you are simply offering a "typical" yet incorrect response, the so be it, but it still doesn't answer the question.

It simply isn't supported in any way that new members "need" experiences and long-time members don't. This is a way to keep the cult-member hooked in so that they don't question why experiences have stopped. If it is simply a matter of being in a long time, then technically this is the "fault" of the member for being old and experienced and certainly not the fault of the teaching. This of course is a manipulation and meant to keep members around well beyond any critical thinking skills may have attempted to ask why things are the way they are.

There is no "need" to have experience because this suggests that an invisible hand or force is directing or guiding experiences, for new or old members alike. This belief that someone invisible (aka the Eck) is "giving" you experiences for your own good and spiritual growth simply cannot be demonstrated, or tested, or validated, or studied. Therefore it is intellectually dishonest to believe that this is happening. This belief also fosters dependence in this seeker because they at taught to believe that a higher force knows better for them what is good for them. Again, a typical cult tactic to keep members hooked in.

My question about why long-terms members who do their SEs every day are having no experiences or that nothing is changing in their lives was not a question that I was seeking a true answer to. I know the answer. The answer is spiritual exercises don't work. Just like prayer they don't work. But the seeker is taught that they do, so the seeker or member of Eckankar will use confirmation bias to prove to themselves that they do work. However, since no study has ever proven than SEs or prayers actually work to heal people or change their lives, the need to personally confirm their efficacy is simply an effect of brainwashing. They don't work. Just ask any eckist who is devout, does everything they are supposed to (yes 7th initiates and above) , and still get sick or gets cancer. If the manhanta were real, why is he not protecting his most faithful as promised? He isn't, because he can't. its not real. The answer that "well it is their karma to get sick" is just a way to blame the victim and take focus off the false promises of the teaching. Yet again another cult tactic to keep members in and paying money.

[Henosis Sage]

Patii Simpson-Rivinus agreed. NO one really needs eckankar or the master or the ceo of eckankar.

nor do they need to stay in eckankar, and can leave at any time without any dire implications or being sent to astral hells etc.

there are many occasions where Twitchell himself said the same thing, despite the horseshit he put into his books and discourses saying the opposite.

Gail also confirmed he made it all up ... so go figure.

REF: 2011-02-11 Patti Simpson-Rivinus P.S. My Take on it All
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNy1YZ2F3VTRNTDA/view
plus other private conversations.

she remained EXTREMELY BIASED TOWARDS PAUL - she received one on one "advice, guidance, explanations, and reasoning" from him directly.

No one else in Eckankar did. All they had were the corrupted and dysfunctional copied writings

Patti passed away several weeks after this email was sent. I knew she would beforehand. Doug Marman and Patti did not.

[Maplin]

Etznab you mentioned somewhere in a thread I can't find right now,
something about people being so desperate to find a god, any god, that
they'll follow the nearest substitute or anyone with answers, maybe to
questions we didn't even know to ask... or words to that effect.

Now as the discussion turns to whether personal experiences validate
faith to others, those who didn't share that experience, I've been
hesitating to mention this but here goes... I wonder how many of the
shaman, visionaries and prophets of our times are nothing but the
mentally ill given a platform. Some, surely, but I hope only a few. It's
certainly easy enough for anyone to be heard now.

Revelation and prophecy are different from delusion and hallucination -
I DON'T wish to imply that all of these experiences are just empty
visions and curable by doctors. But this desperation you mentioned, that
apparent void that so many people wish to fill, has surely led some to
follow people down paths that truly lead nowhere. Anything mysterious or
deeply personal, made public, might seem enticing to those seeking to
fill a perceived void. I can't help but think all the great teachings
have tried to tell us that that void should be filled and negated with
ordinary things - our lives need not be so empty if only we'd appreciate
what we have, count our blessings and see the beauty that's already
around us. If we could truly appreciate the people we know and love
already, the majestic greatness of even the little piece of the world we
can see, and the depth and breadth of even our own ordinary, everyday
reality, what void could there be? All these things are the true great
miracles. Ever looked real close, like through a microscope, at a
flower, a bug, a blade of grass? Your fingerprint? What could possibly
be more incredible! All the works of all the greatest people over all
time do not add up to the first challenge to such wonders. Don't wait
for someone to come along and prove something in a way you've never seen
and wouldn't know until you've seen it - don't wait for answers you
already know - don't worry about questions that only confuse you. This
is enough, now! If it doesn't seem that way then all you need to do is
ask yourself why. The barriers to happiness and achievement are all
within. Anyone can breach those barriers at any time, simply by allowing
themselves. Everywhere we look, the most mundane of things, any living
creature, is an utter miracle and undeniable proof of God's greatness.

Yet so many people need to be led. If that's truly human nature, if
that's what we are, then let's celebrate that too, that too is God's
work. But I would urge people not to think they must be lower than
another, that there must always be someone with more revelation that we
have to find and worship or follow. We are all that good, already, and
all the evidence to support your faith is in front of you always. But if
you DO need a guide, try not to follow a fool, right? And as a rule,
schizophrenic delusionals and straight out crazy men meet my criteria
for a fool. Some fools are mystics and vice versa but it might not mean
they're wise, you don't have to follow every word and action of theirs.
It's natural for humans to give their support and respect to someone
they feel has earned it... just be wise enough to know, those people are
only human too. Don't mistake their faults and problems for some deeper
mystery - you can have your own revelation without following them to
madness and hallucination.

Sorry that sounded so ponderous and sanctimonious, I found it hard to
express what I've been thinking about. Some madman are just mad enough
to be holy, some of them are just nuts. I'd say being able to found,
administer and pay the taxes on an institution of some size is good
proof of competence and sanity, but not necessarily holiness either. So
what works for me, and may for others, is to look for revelation and the
divine in the ordinary and prosaic. It's there, if you look for it.

[Etznab]

Someplace I wrote about (in so many words) tricks in the temples. Even saw a T.V. documentary about it. About how many devices were used, via technology (machines, etc.) to trick people into believing in miracles so they would donate money to the temple.

One of my early experiences as a new member in Eckankar was the sound of a flute heard "inside my head" while I was awake in the middle of the day. I'd not long ago talked on the phone with someone from Eckankar. They told me about the HU, etc. Well, this sound of a flute, a single note it was, was not a high-pitched note. It was more like a the sound of a lower note as if someone had recorded a single note on a flute and then somehow "put that into my head".

O.K. So was it really me hearing a single note of a flute, like a hu sound, because I had recently joined Eckankar? Or did someone by some technology unbeknownst to me "simulate" that experience? I'm not saying yeah or nay either way. Just pointing out there is a possibly today for people to be influenced via modern technology (there are patents now) whereby "inner experiences" can potentially be "simulated" by a non-local entity.

Funny thing it is though how NEWER members generally have more experiences of a phenomenal kind.

The membership card for Eckankar states: "The aim and purpose of Eckankar has always been to take Soul by Its own path back to Its divine source."

What this says to me is that some people might need phenomenal experiences, and a lot of them. The path of others might not. Although I still find it curious how many new people are having phenomenal experiences? To say it is technology is absurd, of course. However, I simply wanted to point out that it could potentially amount to a cause. And it could potentially amount to a cause the witness is unaware of. Now I know this goes into conspiracy theory land and I'm not saying for certain that such a technology caused my experience. Only that one could rationally wonder how a sound could come into one's head as if "from out of the blue".

[Etznab]

I can relate. For example, it's become a fad (IMHO) for certain individuals to believe they can heal others. I call them wannabe healers. I do believe there are some very good people who through various modalities can bring healing and comfort. However, I also believe some are just doing their own version of hoodoo voodoo on others and getting a huge ego boost in the process.

Now look at religions and how much they pray and have rituals for "saving" people. Like, How many times does one need to go to the altar, confess to Jesus and be saved? Once is not enough? And the Catholics have confessions and the Hindus have karma, etc., etc. But more to your point, Who is going to save us from the saviors? And the pseudo saviors at that!

[Maplin]

I've had similar experiences, only a handful in my life, but in the end
I put them down to "auditory hallucination". I have had to accept that
the way I am and the way I have lived might cause such things - I
sometimes get confused between which experiences I dreamed and which I
lived in waking life. But I hasten to add, not often, and there's always
a reason I can account for, like being half asleep, or exhausted from
work/lack of sleep, unwell etc.

The difference between that and insanity, IMO, is being able to
rationalise it, be aware of it and account for it, and not be sucked in
to mistaking it for any more than it is, a quirk of the complexity of
the biological brain.

I look at it this way - I used to do a bit of computer programming for a
hobby, some of it fairly complex, like 3d graphics, real-time input
processing and database stuff, as I wrote a lot of my own low-level
processing code - the fundamental parts that do the real processing
inside this software, because I wanted to potentially own the
intellectual property that did that work, not license it from others (as
many or most software houses commonly do and I would have had to do
myself in other areas, since my expertise and productivity was finite),
and potentially sell licenses to my own work. Between the parts I wrote
myself and the myriad other software components that it takes to
actually get an interactive program to run on a PC, that's a lot of
parts, with very many logic paths and blocks of code that all have to
work and interact correctly. In that great complexity a small error or
anomaly that might not prevent functioning might induce unintended
effects nonetheless. It makes perfect sense to me that a system as
hyper-complex as our own central nervous systems might have minor damage
and faults that could induce false stimuli and give us all kinds of
misinterpretations of those stimuli. So I've explained some odd
experiences away along those lines, yet still, strange noises seemingly
out of nowhere are unnerving. The prospect of some agent of a church
going around after new members stimulating them with some device to
experience these sensations just seems a little far-fetched to me. Not
*impossible*, because I believe such things *could* be done, but just
highly unlikely.

[Etznab]

Media experienced prior to sleep can influence one's dreams. Even one's mood and preoccupations can. However, I recounted an experience while wide awake, and it wasn't just some random sound. The single note of a flute is one of the most highly significant sounds a person could hear. It's akin to hearing the "sound" of God.

Now there is only one person in this group who personally witnessed the experience I mentioned. My first though was about how incredibly unusual and strange that was. It was not just in my head, but it was like outside my head too; like a sound in the room. It was not from anything in my environment that could make that sound. I dismissed it as too unusual to rationalize ,but later came to tell myself it was the HU. It was the eck, or the spirit of God saying Hello! Nowadays though. after reading about certain patents, I not sure what to believe.

[Maplin]

Aha, yes, the fads. In the 90's about every 2nd person I met seemed to
be deeply into crystals, horoscopes, tarot, mantras, reiki (sp?) and
whatever else. First point, they're not into it now, that's a fad.
Secondly, it struck me again and again that these healers and guides to
the soul were much more about trying to prove something to themselves,
ABOUT themselves.... pure ego. They weren't doing it to help others or
give healing or solace, it was just for the self. That's what I mean
about something to prove, they were trying to convince themselves either
that they really had some gift, or at least that they can convince
others that they have one (having the gift in that case is secondary -
the important thing is that people *believe* you have it). There was and
is a lot of "hey I can help you, coz I'm really good at that stuff, just
watch!", which I interpret as nothing but showboating. Really good
showboaters can attract a crowd, and some of them become regulars, even
paying ones. That's where at least some of the fringe orders come
from... there are a lot of people out there who just want to be led, by
almost anyone. I don't get it myself, but I'm sure I see it.

[Etznab]

Actually I don't believe I was an official member yet when I had that phone call and subsequently heard the single note of a flute in my environment. And it was that experience (and probably others) which convinced me Eckankar, the "light" and "sound", were real.

It wouldn't be until years later, decades even, before I regularly questioned and researched much of the recorded Eckankar history and dogma. It wasn't difficult to do this. People before me, especially Prof. David Lane, dug up a lot of new information repeatedly criticized here in this group. Except David actually turned up so many facts. Facts the leader of Eckankar confirmed and spoke about. Facts that members of this group even eventually came to admit, like it or not.

Why is a.r.e. still alive as a newsgroup? Tenacity of people not scared off by immature, mean, insecure, selfish, vengeful, nothing-else-to-do troublemakers, trolls, spammers and bots, etc! (If you ask me, that is.)

You know what? In organized religions there is also peer pressure and popular belief. And generally if a person is not part of the "in crowd" they are part of the "out crowd". So peer pressure and popular belief serve to buffer the legitimate questions of critics and insulate the leadership against confrontation. Probably the greatest success for certain groups, I think, is the ability to "discharge" (directly or indirectly) "undesirables". It's basically the same kind of thing that happens in school (grade school, high school, etc.) where a "bully" and his cohorts rule the roost and everybody else falls into line, or else!

Years ago it was Doug Marman and others belonging to a group called Bright Future who acted against "undesirables" here (anybody who doubts this, please feel free to challenge). And actually there are records in the form of recorded conversations that bear out how people were "toyed with" here; not just by trolls and spammers. In fact, this group once had many active members and regular posters.

BTW, I looked at the Scientology google group and it appeared very active. However, judging by the conversation topics I didn't want to read further.

Personal attacks are an easy way for detractors to keep discussion off of topic, IMO. It works by getting a poster so emotionally worked up they spend all their time trying to defend their person against taunts and lies, etc. It's a vicious cycle I watched play out here many times. A thread topic starts and so many posts later an argument grabs the attention away and then it becomes a topic about a particular poster, or posters. I learned this a long time ago as one of the basic tactics to undermine discussion, research and the uncovering of facts. So at one point I decided to focus on actual facts vs. heresy and unproven allegations. So may of my queries were couched in sentences with "in my opinion (IMO)", "I think" and so many questions that it made certain people crazy! And it was because everybody had their opinions, but some people stated their opinions and beliefs as actual facts! And that there is the whole problem, if you want my opinion. It's what undermines the whole factual record of what actually did happen in history. Corrupted information can be restored, but not by adopting and succumbing to the same corrupted system. So one of the saviors of this group - and what silenced the "bullies" - was factual information illustrated clearly and concisely that showed beyond a doubt what was fact and what was fiction. IOW, end of argument.

It takes me about 3 to 5 seconds to report a spam post, and then I don't have to view any of its text when I visit this group. One can not only report spam, but also:

Hateful or violent content. For example, Anti-Semitic content, racist content, or material that could result in a violent physical act.

Personal or private information. For example, a credit card number, a personal identification number, or an unlisted home address. Note that email addresses and full names are not considered private information.

Promotion of regulated goods and services

Other