Eckankar Quotes - Dialogues with the Master

[Etznab]

"The Tibetan came into the room at 11:30 tonight and asked that I start work at once. He began his dictation as soon as I was at the table.

[...]

"Now for the second law, Growth is attained through an exchange of the old for the new, of the good for the better; it is a conditional or reciprocal action, for each of us is a complete spiritual entity and the completeness makes it possible for man to receive only as he gives. He cannot receive if he clings tenaciously to what he has. (p. 109)

"Let me say this, Difficulties, unharmonious conditions and obstacles indicate that we are refusing higher planes and broader visions. The greater man's ability to know what he requires, the more certain he shall be to discern its presence, to attract the ECK Power and to use it for the benefit of the universal plan.

"Now let me add this point. Nothing can reach you except what is necessary to your growth. This applies to all disciples and seekers. All conditions and experiences that come to you do so for your benefit. Difficulties and obstacles will continue to come until you absorb their wisdom and gather from them the essential of further growth. You gain permanent strength exactly to the extent of the effort required to overcome your difficulties.

"The inexorable requirements of growth demand that you exert the greatest degree of love for what is perfectly in accord with Soul. Your highest happiness will be attained next through your understanding of and conscious cooperation with the cosmic power. [... .]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 107-109 [THE FEELING OF GOD]

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Quoting ...

4. Growth is attained through an exchange of the old for the new, of the good for the better; it is a conditional or reciprocal action, for each of us is a complete thought entity and this completeness makes it possible for us to receive only as we give.

5. We cannot obtain what we lack if we tenaciously cling to what we have. We are able to consciously control our conditions as we come to sense the purpose of what we attract, and are able to extract from each experience only what we require for our further growth. Our ability to do this determines the degree of harmony or happiness we attain.

3. Difficulties, inharmonies, and obstacles, indicate that we are either refusing to give out what we no longer need, or refusing to accept what we require.

6. The ability to appropriate what we require for our growth, continually increases as we reach higher planes and broader visions, and the greater our abilities to know what we require, the more certain we shall be to discern its presence, to attract it and to absorb it. Nothing may reach us except what is necessary for our growth.

7. All conditions and experiences that come to us do so for our benefit. Difficulties and obstacles will continue to come until we absorb their wisdom and gather from them the essentials of further growth.

8. That we reap what we sow is mathematically exact. We gain permanent strength exactly to the extent of the effort required to overcome difficulties.

9. The inexorable requirements of growth demand that we exert the greatest degree of attraction for what is perfectly in accord with us. Our highest happiness will be best attained through our understanding of, and conscious cooperation with natural laws.

[... .]

Based on: The Master Key System, by Charles F. Haanel, [1919]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks02.htm

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[...]

"Now briefly, the mind of man is bound often by the paralyzing forces of the earth plane, which are accepted and acted upon without question. Impressions of fear, worry, disability and inferiority are fed the mind daily. These are sufficient reasons in themselves why man achieves so little upon the spiritual path. This is why the lives of multitudes are so barren of results, when all the time there are the possibilities within themselves that need only the touch of the Master's hand to expand them into spiritual greatness.

"Women have been subject to these conditions, perhaps even more than men. This is true because of their finer susceptibilities, making them more open to vibrations from other minds, and because the flood of negative and repressive thoughts has been aimed more directly at them.

"Women as well as men are beginning to anchor to their spiritual possibilities. They demand that if life holds any secrets, they shall be disclosed. Moderm science is teaching that Light and Sound are singly intensities of motion and this is leading to discoveries of forces within man and woman. All of this leads eventually to the radiant form of the Master."

[...]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 109-110 [THE FEELING OF GOD]

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Our mind forces are often bound by the paralyzing suggestions that come to us from the crude thinking of the race, and which are accepted and acted upon without question. Impressions of fear, of worry, of disability and of inferiority are given us daily. These are sufficient reasons in themselves why men achieve so little-- why the lives of multitudes are so barren of results, while all the time there are possibilities within them which need only the liberating touch of appreciation and wholesome ambition to expand into real greatness.


Women, perhaps even more than men, have been subject to these conditions. This is true because of their finer susceptibilities, making them more open to thought-vibrations from other minds, and because the flood of negative and repressive thoughts has been aimed for especially at them.

Women as well as men are beginning to do their own thinking. They have awakened to some conception of their possibilities. They demand that if life holds any secrets, these shall be disclosed. At no previous time has the influence and potency of thought received such careful and discriminating investigation. While a few seers have grasped the great fact that mind is the universal substance, the basis of all things, never before has this vital truth penetrated the more general consciousness. Many minds are now striving to give this wonderful truth definite utterance. Modem science has taught us that light and sound are simply different intensities of motion, and this has led to discoveries of forces within man that could not have been conceived of until this revelation was made.

Based on: The Master Key System, by Charles F. Haanel, [1919]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks02.htm

http://archive.org/stream/MentalChemistryByCharlesHaanel/MentalChemistry_djvu.txt

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41391720 - Dialoges with the Master vs. Charles F. Haanel (The Master Key System)

[Etznab]

Trivial reference link.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/ILh5lqLGABo

[Etznab]

On Monday, June 23, 2014 8:36:17 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

The Tibetan took a seat in the chair at his usual time and motioned for me to get out of bed and begin taking his dictation.
R.T.: "Let us get down to the discussion for tonight, which I will call 'Unconditional Love.' This is a subject which I have long been waiting to discuss with you.    
"What is the most powerful force in the inner worlds?    
"It is the force of love, which we call the ECK Power. Yet it is not what you think it might be, and this I will attempt to prove to you.
"Everything in the mineral world appears to be solid and fixed, while in the vegetable and animal kingdoms the force is in a state of flux, forever changing so rapidly that it is quite apparent to the eye, always being created and recreated. In the atmosphere we find heat, light and energy. Each plane becomes finer and more spiritual as we pass from the visible to the invisible, from the coarser to the finer, from the low potentiality to high potentiality. When we reach the last invisible world, inside the self, there is love in its purest and most volatile state.    
"The most powerful force in this earth plane is, therefore, the invisible. Likewise, we find that the greatest force in man is also invisible, for spiritual force, the Divine Power, or Love, is that side of him which is always moving into the higher, the greater.    
"The only way in which this force can manifest itself is through the process of thinking. Thinking is the only activity which the spirit possesses, and thought is the only product of thinking. This of course pertains to the earth plane, and to man's individual being.    
"Therefore, additions and subtractions are spiritual transactions; reasoning is a spiritual process; ideas are spiritual conceptions; questions are spiritual searchlights; and logic, argument, and philosophy are spiritual machinery. [...]"

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 113-114 [UNCONDITIONAL LOVE]

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[...]

Let us see what are the most powerful forces in Nature. In the mineral world everything is solid and fixed. In the animal and vegetable kingdom it is in a state of flux, forever changing, always being created and recreated. In the atmosphere we find heat, light and energy. Each realm becomes finer and more spiritual as we pass from the visible to the invisible, from the coarse to the fine, from the low potentiality to high potentiality. When we reach the invisible we find energy in its purest and most volatile state.    

And as the most powerful forces of Nature are the invisible forces, so we find that the most powerful forces of man are his invisible forces, his spiritual force, and the only way in which the spiritual force can manifest is through the process of thinking. Thinking is the only activity which the spirit possesses, and thought is the only product of thinking.

Addition and subtraction are therefore spiritual transactions; reasoning is a spiritual process; ideas are spiritual conceptions; questions are spiritual searchlights and logic, argument and philosophy is spiritual machinery.  

Based on: The Master Key System, by Charles F. Haanel, [1919]

http://selfhelpsanctum.com/masterkey/master_2_3.php
http://www.the-ancient-wisdom.com/ea_bdg10.htm

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[...]

"Thus every thought combined with feeling brings into action certain physical tissue, parts of the brain, nerves, or muscles. This produces an actual change in the conditions of the tissue, regardless of whatever body it be, physical, causal, etc. Therefore, it is only necessary to have a certain number of thoughts combined with feeling on a given idea such as love, in order to bring about a complete change in the organization of a man.    
"Thoughts of the highest ideal take root in the individual and the physical tissue is changed and the individual's attitude is changed and he sees life in a new attitude. Old things pass away, all things become new. He is born again of the spirit; life has a new meaning for him, and he is reconstructed and filled with joy, confidence, hope, and energy.    
"Now we come to the subject of love. This word is used wrongly. It is that power or higher expression which you possess in common with me.  
"It is the ECK Power seeking equilibrium in the union of the masculine and feminine expressions of the divine self.    
"When the true polarity is attained, all is in perfect harmony with the positive pole of divine love, and the negative pole of human love reaches up unwaveringly and merges itself into that love and all the forces in all the inner planes interact in perfect rhythm from pole to pole.    
"Divine love and human love are often thought of as being quite separate, while in reality they are the same, only opposite poles of the one force called the Master - or that which is God Itself. This being true, you can now grasp the meaning of God in love. [...]"

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, p. 114 [UNCONDITIONAL LOVE]

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Every thought brings into action certain physical tissue, parts of the brain, nerve or muscle. This produces an actual physical change in the construction of the tissue. Therefore it is only necessary to have a certain number of thoughts on a given subject in order to bring about a complete change in the physical organization of a man.

This is the process by which failure is changed to success. Thoughts of courage, power, inspiration, harmony, are substituted for thoughts of failure, despair, lack, limitation and discord, and as these thoughts take root, the physical tissue is changed and the individual sees life in a new light, old things have actually passed away, all things have become new, he is born again, this time born of the spirit, life has a new meaning for him, he is reconstructed and is filled with joy, confidence, hope, energy. He sees opportunities for success to which he was heretofore blind. He recognizes possibilities which before had no meaning for him. The thoughts of success with which he has been impregnated are radiated to those around him, and they in turn help him onward and upward; he attract to him new and successful associates, and this in turn changes his environment; so that by this simple exercise of thought, a man changes not only himself, but his environment, circumstances and conditions.

Based on: The Master Key System, by Charles F. Haanel, [1919]

http://selfhelpsanctum.com/masterkey/master_2_3.php
http://www.the-ancient-wisdom.com/ea_bdg10.htm

Love in its highest expression is the one power which you possess in common with the gods. It is a divine force of attraction which seeks equilibrium in the union of the masculine and feminine expressions of the Divine. (p. 216)

[...] When true Polarity is attained all will be in perfect harmony with the positive pole of Divine Love, the negative pole of human love reaching up unwaveringly and merging itself into that Love, and all the forces interacting in perfect rhythm from pole to pole. (p. 196)

[...] Divine Love and human love are often thought of as quite separate while in reality they are but opposite poles of the One Force. (p. 197) [...]

Based on: The Voice Of Isis And Realms Of The Living Dead, by Harriett Augusta Curtiss - 1914

http://archive.org/stream/TheVoiceOfIsis2ndEdition/CurtissFhAndHaTheVoiceOfIsis2ndEdition_djvu.txt

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[...]

"A careful analysis of love will show that love as man worships the Divine Mother in his own beloved (and vice versa, the God in man) the consciousness of man and woman will eventually be polarized to divine love. (pp. 114-115)
"Now love is actually Light, or what you see in contemplation as the stream of shining atoms whirling about you in a positive radiance. By polarizing yourself to this radiant stream you become a part of it and flow back to the God center, or return to the true home.    
"The whole problem of polarization rests upon man's ability to purify his thoughts concerning all forces and functions of his body. He must know that there is no natural function of his body that is not normal and right if put to its proper use and governed by pure thought.    
"This divine creative force of God, or Love, which is the link that unites you with God, finds its greatest earth plane expression in the sex force. It also has a corresponding expression on all planes, spiritual, mental and otherwise. The sex urge is creative always and cannot be brought into operation without a definite creation on all planes, their aspects creating upon the higher planes, their lower manifesting on the physical plane. But in all it is the spiritual power working through man into the objective world.    
"Now for the part of union between man and woman. Unless this union has been made on the higher planes through pure thought, the physical union cannot bring about peace and happiness, for like all true sacraments it must be entered into and registered upon all planes.    
"The law of divine love will bring to each Soul Its true marriage and union in perfect purity on all planes. This true marriage is that of Soul with the ECK - the polarization of each Soul - not two Souls or man and woman coming together. And, as it is, each Soul will be guided through repeated experience by divine guidance until It finds this true love, the love of ECK through the Mahanta. You can be spiritually as well as physically married to a mate only when the old accounts of both have been balanced, and old complications set up through mistakes of the past have been worked out. (p. 115)    
"In reality sexual desire is but the effort of Soul to express divine love through the physical vehicle, and should be looked upon as sacred. For in the union of man and woman as two perfectly affinitized Souls there is a force brought into action which is greater than the physical senses can express. (p. 116)    
"The senses are transcended and Souls are lifted from the human into divine love, but only where human love is so pure and sacred and holy that nothing human can express it, because it transcends the power of the human mind to grasp. Only then is a new force brought into manifestation, a force which is the vehicle for a direct manifestation of the divine. This force at one end unites the twain, and at the other end unites them into the Godhead, or their mutual spiritual ideal, thus making the perfect triangle. In such a union God is manifested through perfected and purified human love. [... .]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 114-116 [UNCONDITIONAL LOVE]

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[...] The whole problem rests upon your ability to purify your thoughts concerning all the forces and functions of your bodies. Learn that there is no natural function of your body that is not normal and right if put to its proper use and governed by pure thoughts. (p. 217)

[...] This divine creative force of Love, which is the link that unites you with God, finds its greatest earthly expression in the sex-forces. It also has a corresponding expression on all planes, spiritual, mental and physical. The sex-forces are always creative and cannot be brought into operation without a definite creation on all planes, their higher aspects creating upon the higher planes, their lower upon the physical-plane. [... .] (p. 218)

[...] But unless the union has already been made in heaven through pure love, the physical union cannot bring about peace and happiness, for like all true sacraments it must be entered into and registered upon all planes. (p. 220)

The Law of Divine Love will bring to each Soul its true marriage, a union in perfect purity on all planes. This according to the one life-theory is of course impossible for all; but since reincarnation is a fact, the Soul, through repeated experiences, learns to follow its Divine Guidance, hence will ultimately find its true mate. But they can be spiritually as well as physically married to their mates only when the old accounts of both have been balanced and the old complications set up through the mistakes of the past have been worked out. [... .]. (p. 221)

[...] In reality sexual desire is but the effort of the Soul to express Divine Love through the physical vehicle and should be looked upon as the lower or negative pole of that Love, and God is Love. [... .] (p. 226)

[...] For in the union of perfectly affinitized Souls there is a force brought into action which is greater than the physical senses can express, the senses are transcended and the Souls are lifted from human into Divine Love. This is the point where Divine Love touches and overlaps human love, but only when human love has grown so pure and sacred and holy that nothing human can express it, because it transcends the powers of the human mind to grasp. Only then is a new force brought into manifestation, a force which is the vehicle for a direct manifestation of the Divine. This force at one end unites into one flesh the twain, and at the other end unites them to the Godhead, or their mutual Father-in-heaven, thus making the perfect triangle. In such a union God is manifested through perfected and purified human love. (p. 266)

Based on: The Voice Of Isis And Realms Of The Living Dead, by Harriett Augusta Curtiss - 1914

http://archive.org/stream/TheVoiceOfIsis2ndEdition/CurtissFhAndHaTheVoiceOfIsis2ndEdition_djvu.txt

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41391720 - Dialoges With the Master (1956?, 1970) vs. Charles F. Haanel (1919) & Harriett Augusta Curtiss (1914)

[wernertrp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOxiekqvUV4

Wenn der Haanel kräht auf dem Mist
ändert sich das Wetter oder es bleibt wie es ist.

[Etznab]

[...]




"Man's difficulties are due largely to confused ideas and ignorance of his true self or interests.
"The great task of man is to discover the law of God to which he is to adjust himself. Clear thinking and moral insight are, therefore, of incalculable value. All processes, even those of thought, rest on solid foundations.    
"The keener the sensibilities, the more delicate the tastes, the more acute the judgement, the more refined the feelings, and the more subtle the intelligence, the loftier the aspiration. Therefore, the purer and more intense are the gratifications which existence yields. Hence it is that the study of the best that has been thought in the world gives supreme pleasure.
"God is thought on the mental plane, within man. Thus, active thought is active energy and concentrated thought is concentrated energy. So thought concentrated on a definite purpose (such as union with God) becomes God. [... .]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 119-120 [PRACTICAL WISDOM]

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Our difficulties are largely due to confused ideas and ignorance of our true interests. The great task is to discover the laws of nature to which we are to adjust ourselves. Clear thinking and moral insight are, therefore, of incalculable value. All processes, even those of thought, rest on solid foundations.

The keener the sensibilities, the more acute the judgment, the more delicate the taste, the more refined the moral feelings, the more subtle the intelligence, the loftier the aspiration - the purer and more intense are the gratifications which existence yields. Hence it is that the study of the best that has been thought in the world gives supreme pleasure.

The powers, uses and possibilities of the mind under the new interpretations are incomparably more wonderful that the most extravagant accomplishment, or even dreams of material progress.

Thought is energy. Active thought is active energy; concentrated thought is a concentrated energy. Thought concentrated on a definite purpose becomes power. ... [... .]

Based on: "The Master Key" by Charles Haanel

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey2.htm

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41391720 - R.T vs. Haanel

[Etznab]

[...]

"He who thinks to illuminate the whole range of mental action by the light of his own consciousness is not unlike one who would go about to illuminate the universe with a floodlight."
"Soul, like a benevolent stranger, works and makes provision for our benefit, pouring only the mature fruit into our consciousness. Thus, ultimate analysis of thought processes shows that the subconscious is the theatre of the most important phenomena.
"It was through Soul that Shakespeare perceived, without effort, great truths which are hidden from the conscious mind; that Raphael painted Madonnas; and Beethoven composed symphonies.
"Ease and perfection rest entirely upon the degree in which we cease to depend upon the consciousnessand make use of Soul power.
"We are aware of how dependent we are upon Soul; the greater, the nobler, the more brilliant our thoughts, the more obvious it is to us that the origin lies beyond our ken. We find ourselves endowed with tact, instinct, and the sense of beauty in art and music, of whose origin or dwelling place we are totally unconscious.
"The objective self is the responsible ruler and guardian of Soul only when in the Master's hands. It is through this high function one can completely reverse conditions in man's life.
"A mind trained in God-thought can prevent any unguarded action by the negative self entirely through its vigilant protection. It may be properly called the watchman at the gate of the great subjective domain. [... .]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, pp. 120-121 [PRACTICAL WISDOM]

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1. The operations of the mind are produced by two parallel modes of activity, the one conscious, and the other subconscious. Professor Davidson says: "He who thinks to illuminate the whole range of mental action by the light of his own consciousness is not unlike the one who should go about to illuminate the universe with a rushlight."

2. The subconscious' logical processes are carried on with a certainty and regularity which would be impossible if there existed the possibility of error. Our mind is so designed that it prepares for us the most important foundations of cognition, whilst we have not the slightest apprehension of the modus operandi.

3. The subconscious soul, like a benevolent stranger, works and makes provision for our benefit, pouring only the mature fruit into our lap; thus ultimate analysis of thought processes shows that the subconscious is the theatre of the most important mental phenomena.

4. It is through the subconscious that Shakespeare must have perceived, without effort, great truths which are hidden from the conscious mind of the student; that Phidias fashioned marble and bronze; that Raphael painted Madonnas and Beethoven composed symphonies.

5. Ease and perfection depend entirely upon the degree in which we cease to depend upon the consciousness; playing the piano, skating, operating the typewriter, the skilled trades, depend for their perfect execution on the process of the sub-conscious mind. The marvel of playing a brilliant piece on the piano, while at the same time conducting a vigorous conversation, shows the greatness of our subconscious powers.

6. We are all aware how dependent we are upon the subconscious, and the greater, the nobler, the more brilliant our thoughts are, the more it is obvious to ourselves that the origin lies beyond our ken. We find ourselves endowed with tact, instinct, sense of the beautiful in art, music, etc., or whose origin or dwelling place we are wholly unconscious.

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey2.htm

[...]

13. Not only can it impress other minds, but it can direct the subconscious mind. In this way the conscious mind becomes the responsible ruler and guardian of the subconscious mind. It is this high function which can completely reverse conditions in your life.

14. It is often true that conditions of fear, worry, poverty, disease, inharmony and evils of all kinds dominate us by reason of false suggestions accepted by the unguarded subconscious mind. All this the trained conscious mind can entirely prevent by its vigilant protective action. It may properly be called "the watchman at the gate" of the great subconscious domain.

Based on: "The Master Key" by Charles Haanel

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey2_2.htm

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[...]

"The objective mind is reasonable will. Subjective mind is instinctive desire, the realm of God-Power.
"Receiving any suggestion as truth, the subjective mind proceeds to act there in the whole domain of its tremendous field of action, even though what the objective mind has suggested may be either truth or error. If the latter, it acts at the cost of wide-reaching peril to the whole being of the individual.
"The ECK Master is on duty during every minute of the hour in man's life. waking hour. However, the conscious or objective mind is on duty only during the waking hours. When the later is off guard, or when its calm judgment is suspended, the subjective mind is unguarded and left open to suggestions from all sources, unless the master's radiant form has been implanted there.
"During a wild excitement or panic, or during the heights of anger or unrestrained passion, conditions are the most dangerous. The subjective mind is then open to the suggestion of fear, selfishness, greed, depreciation and other negative forces derived from surrounding persons or circumstances."
"The result is usually unwholesome in the extreme (with effects that may endure to distress the subjective mind for a long time) unless the Master is called upon for help. [... .]

Based on: Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Ninth Printing - 1987, p. 121 [PRACTICAL WISDOM]

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15. One writer has expressed the chief distinction between the two phases of mind thus: "Conscious mind is reasoning will. Subconscious mind is instinctive desire, the result of past reasoning will."

17. Receiving any suggestions as true, the subconscious mind at once proceeds to act thereon in the whole domain of its tremendous field of work. The conscious mind can suggest either truth or error. If the latter, it is at the cost of wide-reaching peril to the whole being.
18. The conscious mind ought to be on duty during every waking hour. When the "watchman" is "off guard," or when its calm judgment is suspended, under a variety of circumstances, then the subconscious mind is unguarded and left open to suggestion from all sources. During the wild excitement of panic, or during the height of anger, or the impulses of the irresponsible mob, or at any other time of unrestrained passion, the conditions are most dangerous. The subconscious mind is then open to the suggestion of fear, hatred, selfishness, greed, self-depreciation and other negative forces, derived from surrounding persons or circumstances. The result is usually unwholesome in the extreme, with effects that may endure to distress it for a long time. Hence, the great importance of guarding the subconscious mind from false impressions. [... .]

Based on: "The Master Key" by Charles Haanel

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey2_2.htm

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41391720 - R.T. vs. Haanel

[Etznab]

Questions:

In the Eckankar example, was that seriously Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell?

The beginning paragraph for this chapter of the Eckankar book: Dialogues with the Master had:

"Rebazar Tarzs appeared a little later than usual tonight. It was almost 1:30 a.m., before he came into the bedroom and started pacing up and down the floor with both hands behind his back. Finally he started speaking." (p. 119)

In light of the above examples, however, what is the more reasonable assumption? Rebazar Tarzs coming into Paul Twitchell's bedroom? Or Paul Twitchell copying and paraphrasing words from Haanel's (and other people's) writings?

If the later be closer to the actual truth then it suggests to me the following things. That at some point in Paul Twitchell's career he DID NOT attribute such writings to Eckankar Masters. Rather, at some point in time he chose to replace the actual sources with pseudonyms and / or identities unique to "Eckankar".

I wonder if anybody thought about the far-reaching ramifications from changing recorded history and text, replacing it with pseudo history / religion and the resultant culture of belief in the latter? I think the answer can probably be seen after people for the first time look at these examples and the many, many examples of plagiarism and paraphrase, what have you.

Paul Twitchell is not here to answer for these things. As for the two leaders who followed him, when the subject and examples of borrowing, plagiarism, etc. came to surface WHY DIDN'T THEY DIAL UP REBAZAR TARZS, ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION, AND PUBLISH THE ANSWER???

Harold Klemp, back in the 1980s, was said to have discovered a "growing list" and was not exactly happy about it. I believe he even hinted that something needed to be done and that he knew the person (himself) who would have to do it. Following were so many talks about the late Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar.

Why didn't Harold Klemp contact Rebazar Tarzs? Since the majority of examples similar, or exact to other writers, were said to have come from him? Does it not make sense to consult Rebazar Tarzs? Especially if the Eck Masters are real and people report having experiences with them (even years before hearing of Eckankar)? If Rebazar Tarzs is real then isn't that the reasonable thing to do?

There is another consideration, I reckon. What if Rebazar Tarzs is not real? How can he then be contacted? And if one did try to contact him, What would they actually be trying to contact?

These are just some of the thought that came to me after illustrating the above comparisons. Especially the last sentence from the Haanel's version:

[Etznab]

A later version of Haanel's writings can be found in the book Mental Chemistry, 1922.

https://archive.org/stream/MentalChemistryByCharlesHaanel/MentalChemistry_djvu.txt

Example:


"The inexorable requirements of growth demand that we exert the greatest degree of attraction for what is perfectly in accord with us. Our highest happiness will be best attained through our understanding of and conscious co-operation with natural laws." (Mental Chemistry, 1922)

An earlier version had:

"The inexorable requirements of growth demand that we exert the greatest degree of attraction for what is perfectly in accord with us. Our highest happiness will be best attained through our understanding of, and conscious cooperation with natural laws."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks02.htm

A quote from the Eckankar writings had:

"The inexorable requirements of growth demand that you exert the greatest degree of love for what is perfectly in accord with Soul. Your highest happiness will be attained next through your understanding of and conscious cooperation with the cosmic power."

Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, Ninth Printing - 1987, Chapter titled: THE FEELING OF GOD.

The fact that the Eckankar version appears similar is interesting. In context to the number of other similar paragraphs between Eckankar (or Rebazar Tarzs) and Haanel it appears to look even more interesting.

One could ask "Why so many similarities? Is there a relationship between the writings of Haanel and the dialogues between Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs? Given the date of Haanel's writings existing at a time when Paul Twitchell was only a child, or before he reportedly first met Rebazar Tarzs (1950s) it then becomes reasonable to how the Eckankar writings came to look so similar. In other words, if the basic message and text existed anterior to the writings of Paul Twitchell, anterior to Paul Twitchell's alleged relations with his source (Rebazar Tarzs) then why is this so? Did paul Twitchell, in fact, borrow from the writings of Haanel years after the writings of Haanel were published? And if this be the case then what does it say about Rebazar Tarzs? Who, at the beginning of Paul Twitchell's book reportedly said:

"I want you to take down the following words as part of a discourse to give the world. You will act as a channel for this message. Are you ready?"

My curiosity wants to ask the question "How is it that the words Paul Twitchell took down are so similar and in places exact to what already existed, or what was already written down years before by someone else?

In view of the trove of evidence common sense would lead to the suspicion that Paul Twitchell copied from the writings of Haanel, paraphrased them in some places and subsequently attached the name Rebazar Tarzs as the source.

If there is another explanation I would be open to hear it. It would be a good topic for discussion here. I think one could argue that perhaps Rebazar Tarzs guided Paul Twitchell to copy from and alter the writings of Haanel (and other writers) and this would lend credence to the existence of Rebazar Tarzs. At the same time, this argument does not explain why the name Haanel wasn't mentioned.

Would it change the character of Rebazar Tarzs if the name Haanel were indeed mentioned? Would it imply that Rebazar Tarzs AND Paul Twitchell were simply quoting and paraphrasing the writings of others?

I really can't say for certain what is the case. I would say that by this time Eckankar should know about and be aware of the writings by others similar to and in many places exact when compared with the reported teachings of Rebazar Tarzs. I am aware of the admission that Paul Twitchell compiled from writings of others. What I am not fully aware of is the role of Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck Masters in this whole affair. For example, Did the Eck Masters borrow, copy and compile from the writings of others? The admission implies that Paul did this, but not that the Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs did this. Dialogues With The Master (title of Paul Twitchell's book) suggests that so much information came by the way of Rebazar Tarzs. So I naturally wonder how can it be both? How did Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs both evidently compile from the writings of others? How did they both fail to mention the authors and the titles of their books?

IMO something here needs further investigation here because Harold Klemp, to my knowledge, never said that Rebazar Tarzs got information for his dialogues with Paul from library books. There are places where Rebazar Tarzs quotes others and mentions their names. Usually for short quotes. However, I have yet to see any reference to Haanel and the other authors who's writings mirror the sayings of Rebazar Tarzs.

Would be interested to hear other people's thought about why the dialogues from Rebazar tarzs appear similar and in some places exact to what existed in books even years before Paul Twitchell first met with him.

[Etznab]

For those uncertain about the number of similarities between Rebazar Tarzs and Haanel scroll to the beginning of this thread and look at the examples. Next look at the several other examples from other chapters of Dialogues With The Master. Once the sheer number of similarities are witnessed please feel free to share whether it looks like Rebazar Tarzs copied from the writings of others.

[JR]

++++++++++++++++++++++
There is no question in my mind why gentlemen such as Mr. Haanel wrote out their pamphlets in serial formats. 1) They waited for Rebazar Tarz to come to them. 2) RT had a lot of people to visit. That being resolved....

I would purchase the bibliography you assemble for the quotes/plagiarisms you have collected, Etznab. Copyright it as a bibliography of quotes just like any other text of collected quotes. St. Louis must be one of the oldest cities in the Midwest. I am curious what St. Louis' Theosophical, Masonic, and Rosicrucian libraries must have. A few of the old communes established in the Midwest must have a valuable library or two now that they are public settlements.

Some links:
http://www.masterkeysystem.tv/pdf/The-Master-Key-System-Sample.pdf
http://www.haanel.com/biography/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_F._Haanel
http://charleshaanel.wwwhubs.com/

The United States was an adventure in the mid 1800s. It was a lot like traveling alone and spending some time alone in a foreign city or countryside. You had to know how to trust someone and when you could trust them and exchange information your adventure was prepared for the road to learn more. So it is likely, that if one were to stay in one place for many years, the world would come to them, directly and indirectly. I enjoy reading these old tomes. I just found a few by a renowned Buddhist from Burma, Venerable Ledi Sayadaw Mahathera b. 1846 AD.

Ledi Sayadaw Mahathera
http://www.abhidhamma.com/txt_Manuals_of_Buddhism.pdf

His Manual of Insight starts out describing the type and characteristic of hallucinations, the same for fantasies, how to recognize dogmatic beliefs, Superknowledge and Profound knowledge.... Anyway you have an idea how some of the early American writers may have been influenced or not. Buddhism existed 1/2 millennia before the Christian Era, much has been put forth to build on by each succeeding generation of Monks whose love is to focus on Moksha, properties of Insight, Consciousness as perceiver, and establishing themselves in the realms beyond the physical (eg the mark of no-soul).

[Etznab]

"The question most ask is from where did Haanel get his ideas for The Master Key System? How did it originate? Was Haanel a lone genius that worked in solitude? Did he have influences?

"This essay shall endeavor to answer those questions and many more."

http://www.haanel.com/history-influence/

Here are some quotes from that section.

"For one thing, as has been shown in the previous sections, Haanel's wasn't the only book about the mental aspects of success that was written at the time. While the book that Haanel penned was indeed superlative, it wasn't original, either in message nor in form.

[...]

"In fact, it can be posited that Haanel was quite ahead of his time with his marketing techniques. The practice of offering The Master Key System as a correspondence course in which chapters were sent one at a time and for which the student paid per section effectively tripled -- or even quadrupled! -- the cost of the "System" had he sold it simply in book form."

***

One of the contributors to Haanel was a person called Victor S. Perera who helped with the book: The Amazing Secrets of the Yogi by Charles F. Haanel.

It appears that another book was called Mind Yoga

http://books.google.com/books?id=sGDnGTko4gwC&pg=PT2&lpg=PT2&dq=%22Victor+S.+Perera%22&source=bl&ots=Po-VaBex0v&sig=FQqfn4Sc6ZIW0V5H7aA7v-xYn34&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hyXqU625LZCAygT4-IGoDg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=%22Victor%20S.%20Perera%22&f=false

My guess is that a lot of material was already circulating during Haanel's time. Perhaps he collected and shared it, much the same kind of thing that Paul Twitchell later did. Each author lends something unique to their works in the way that words are arranged, titles chosen and chapters outlined. However I did not find information about Haanel having a "guru" or a "Master" of the character Paul Twitchell described about Rebazar Tarzs.

Something I learned about the "New Thought" and "New Age" movements was the kind of liberty and freedom it afforded people to think and believe outside of the orthodox church dogmas. The United States was awash with spirit of freedom of religion in the early 20th century and the Industrial Revolution era. Means to distribute written materials in the form of books was increasing as modern infrastructure grew and connected many areas together.

I wonder if perhaps many of the "New Age" authors simply wanted to share what they read in other people's books, or had heard spoken of in the growing number of "New Age" and Occult circles. The 1900s was a money-making era. People made so much money it led to a stock market collapse and a depression. The "New Age" books offered a way to sell a product and also to inspire people with concepts and teachings outside the confines of strict orthodox dogma. It opened up a huge wave of "New Thought".

In spite of all this I don't find it highly reasonable to attribute writings of Charles Haanel to Rebazar Tarzs. If Rebazar had already contributed information to Charles Haanel for his books then he could have referred to these by the time of Paul Twitchell and asked Paul to mention Haanel and Haanel's works.

Rebazar had a lot of people to visit, you say? Well, so did Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy.

[Etznab]

Forgot to add this link.

http://portalspiritual.com/ebook/Engleza/Charles%20F.%20Haanel%20-%20The%20Amazing%20Secrets%20of%20the%20Yogi.pdf

[JR]

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 7:55:28 AM UTC-7, Etznab wrote:
Rebazar had a lot of people to visit, you say? Well, so did Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy.

======================
Thanks for the links. A gift is a gift regardless the source, Etznab and the difference between a childish or adultish mind and a childlike mind is in the expectation for what comes next. For example, an adultish mind would much like today's moral authorities who fear letting their children go to the park by themselves - would not allow a child to go to a wolf-den to play with the pups.

Indigenous Canadians who arrived on the Amrican continent before the Sumerians invented today's Bible made a science of childlike expectation using the point where their subjective world met the objective for a conscience and allowed the kids to treat wildlife like their pets as long as they obeyed Nature's rules.

Authors such as Paul Twitchell and Charles Haanel used words in a similar manner with respect to having an open mind to describe how to achieve and accept unexpected Spiritual gifts. The invisible worlds come into play only when someone is ready to perceive them and not be overwhelmed by the experience if they have been trained to own childish thoughts and preserve them for the adultish mind that comes later with social pressures.

For example the book 'She' by H. Rider Haggard was spontaneously composed in a matter of days and weeks. For most Spiritually oriented people, Spiritual concepts flow in the pattern which follows the Spiritual identity of the perceiver and the mental training they have had to put their experience into words for someone else. You may allude to having proof Paul Twitchell fabricated Rebazar Tarz, but I do not believe you have a sound ability to judge character for Paul Twitchell has always struck me as sincere with a sweet taste for gentle humor. The tones I experience in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad are just that and matter of fact to boot as they are based on his personal experience and no-one else's. In other words, I can accept Rebazar Tarz for the simple reason this is how he explained to himself how he found his manuscripts already typed for him on occasion.

I can also accept that based on what your truth fairy has explained to you, that Rebazar does not exist for you in any way, shape or form except as someone else's experience which you may consider to be a fantasy, self-delusion, or hallucination. The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw of Myanmar explains this for me in Part V Section 82 (About Miracles), Sec. 83 (Psychic Powers), Sec. 84 (Magical Powers), & Sec. 85 (Knowledge of other people's thoughts) in his discourse series 'Nibbanapatisamyutta Katha' or 'On the Nature of Nibbana.'

Yours truly,

Santa

[Etznab]

Dialogues with the Master? Or, dialogues with a literary device?

[Etznab]

On Monday, June 23, 2014 at 8:36:17 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

How is it that a Rebazar Tarzs came up with those words for Paul Twitchell? It is highly reasonable to assume that Paul Twitchell copied and plagiarized, which does not equate with a Rebazar Tarzs coming into his room and dictating them. This is not an unreasonable observation based on the available evidence and I have yet to see Eckankar, or anybody come up with a better explanation about how the words came to be appropriated by Paul Twitchell.

[Kinpa]

No one seems to care~! Stop making excuses to excuse your assumptions. They are guesses at best regardless of anything you claim. You simply have NO direct evidence that your assumptions are even remotely founded on anything of substance. Pretty simple really...no one cares how or why any words were appropriated by Sri Paul Twitchell. Only you and sean care which is why you prattle on endlessly about the subject. The rest of the world moved on. It always does.

[Etznab]

Here is your chance to explain the sheer volume of appropriated texts credited to Rebazar Tarzs. I ask you again. Was that Rebazar Tarzs? All of the copied and plagiarized words? Was that Rebazar Tarzs, or Paul Twitchell? In the past you said it was Paul Twitchell and this is what I also have suggested. And then I specifically asked if "that" Rebazar Tarzs was real?

It looks to me like you have a hard time accepting the truth when it is what you don't like to hear. You called Sean a rapist and a drunk, etc., etc. And when an FBI report was filed against you as a result YOU denied it. When you started talking about poop accidents and leveled them at Sean, myself and my friends we also told you the truth and you denied that. When you told me I did not have a current Eckankar membership and I corrected you - adding that I also spoke with someone at ESC - you denied that as well.

Looks to me like Kinpa can't handle the truth.

[Kinpa]

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I need no "chance" from you, you are a fool. You have come to your own decision on that matter, therefore there is nothing I need to say about Rebazar Tarzs, not that you would listen anyhow. Plagiarisms have nothing to do with Rebazar Tarzs, you simply choose to ASSUME that they do, nothing more. That is a conclusion that has literally NO direct evidence to support it. I find the reason that you are SO unable to allow anyone to have whichever opinion THEY choose to have on the matter of far greater import. It suggests that you cannot abide by having any that do not agree with you or that choose not to accept your failing logical formula to explain these various unknowns that YOU face daily because they bother YOU so much. Stop crying, you are beginning to show definite signs of a mental aberration.

> It looks to me like you have a hard time accepting the truth when it is what you don't like to hear.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinion and nothing more. It looks to ME that it is YOU that is having the problems, regardless the reasons attributed to them. I am not the one that refuses to allow another to have whichever opinion they want to have about things, Eckankar included. You can make the empty claim against me for the rest of your life, but that will never change the fact that you have 3 other people supporting you, people that you (erroneously) consider friends. Learn things the harder way if you choose, far be it from me to stand in your way...

You called Sean a rapist and a drunk, etc., etc.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you a point to make???

And when an FBI report was filed against you as a result YOU denied it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And I spoke the truth. Sean is the liar in that case. He has never shown a singe shred of evidence to prove his claim true, that is because he has none.

When you started talking about poop accidents and leveled them at Sean, myself and my friends we also told you the truth and you denied that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wrong again. You made a claim that merely opposed my claim. Tit for tat, nothing more. What of it? Having a problem about that? You certainly seem to be overly attached to the idea. That must be a real bummer.

When you told me I did not have a current Eckankar membership and I corrected you - adding that I also spoke with someone at ESC - you denied that as well.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Still bitching about this? YOU have yet to show ANY sort of proof of either claim. I showed mine before I asked you to show yours. It seems pretty simple to me. Show your card or stow the entire thing. No one cares. It must be awful lonely to be locked in an empty room screaming accusations at the walls. Perhaps you ought to find a professional to speak to about it, it seems to bother you quite a lot.

> Looks to me like Kinpa can't handle the truth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah I disagree, it looks FAR more like etznob can't handle the truth, nor can even identify any single thing as being a truth. But have yourself a great day despite me, and may you be blessed by the Divine Love of the SUGMAD, The ECK, and the Mahanta~!

[Tisra Til]

Here's the Holy One speaking for the whole world again. Man, I wish I had that level of psychic development. Truly astounding. As I said before, 'the ECK flows strong in this one.' I can only dream of such insight! Not to mention the insights of PT and RT.

The Trifecta of insight!

[Kinpa]

And here is the profane one, not knowing enough about anything to be able to speak of it at all....boring...run along child....

[Tisra Til]

OMG(Sugmad), the Divine One has spoken. To me. TO ME! Hallelujah, Hallelujah. Spoken like a true M-I-T! Can't wait for more of that infinite wisdom to flow through the lips of the Divine One.

GO!

[Kinpa]

https://youtu.be/kehf3tTyUcA

[Henosis Sage]

Oh Poor Me Political Correctness is not a valid excuse for being a Lying Asshole

Just another everyday dime a dozen little Hitler and Mini Master in eckankar.

Don't be too hard on him because pathological narcissists have their limitations.

He can't help being an asshole 24/7, it's his nature to be like that.

Pathological Narcissists, such as Kinpoop Matthew Sharpe, just can't or won't
change.

Despite consequence Pathological Narcissists just can't or won't change.

The pathological narcissist can't change a problem if they think they don't
have a problem.

But worse than that, the pathological narcissist can't fix the problem when
they think you're the problem.

ASPD SYMPTOMS mirror Matthew Sharpe's long term well known behavior and problems.

Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

TICK Disregard for right and wrong

TICK Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others

TICK Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others

TICK Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated

TICK Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence

TICK Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others

TICK Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them

And may Kinpoop's days and nights end at the end of a rope after much suffering!

[Kinpa]

Aww look at the poor baby wishing death upon me....all that I wished you were blessings of Divine Love and Perfect Health! As one wishes others, so they themselves receive! As shall you! Enjoy with a calm heart~! I certainly shall!

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 7 October 2016 12:22:27 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:
Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called SOCIOPATHY, is a mental
condition in which a person consistently shows NO REGARD for right and wrong
and IGNORES the rights and feelings of others.

People with antisocial personality disorder tend to ANTAGONIZE, MANIPULATE,
or treat others HARSHLY or with CALLOUS indifference.

They show NO Guilt or REMORSE for their behavior.

Individuals with antisocial personality disorder often violate the law,
becoming criminals.

They may LIE, behave violently or IMPULSIVELY, and have problems with DRUG and
ALCOHOL use.

Because of these characteristics, people with this disorder typically can't
fulfill responsibilities related to family, work or school.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/home/ovc-20198975

ASPD SYMPTOMS mirror Matthew Sharpe's long term well known behavior and issues.

Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

TICK Disregard for right and wrong

TICK Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others

TICK Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others

TICK Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure

TICK Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated

TICK Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior

TICK Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty

TICK Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead

TICK Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence

TICK Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others

TICK Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others

TICK TICK TICK Poor or abusive relationships

TICK Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them

TICK Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

[Kinpa]

Each and every category of the charges above fit Sean Arundel and no other~! Enjoy what you have wrought Mr. Fancypants~! You clock has stopped ticking now...

[Etznab]

Speaking for everyone else. Yes.

"[...] Pretty simple really ... no one cares how or why any words were appropriated by Sri Paul Twitchell. Only you and sean care which is why you prattle on endlessly about the subject. The rest of the world moved on. It always does. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/duwFzx2V278/6xO9wj93AwAJ

I saw how he wrote to you. Do you think Kinpa sounds like some self-appointed Eckankar P.R. person?

[Kinpa]

Still crying because someone does not agree with your assumptions??? I am no one's PR person, I simply have a differing opinion from yours...why on earth do you allow that to disturb you so much? Never been disagreed with before? Does that trouble you? It must by the amount of complaining you have done in regards to my opinions. Eckankar owes no explanation for my opinions. They have their own, and I do NOT speak FOR them, regardless of your various assumptions and comments and OPINIONS on that matter. :D Get over it already! And be blessed by Divine Love in Sugmad's Name, as well as Perfected Health in the Names of the Sugmad, the ECK, AND the Mahanta~!

[Etznab]

Really? Is that all you wished upon Sean?

Let's take a look.

Kinpa [to Sean]: "would you like to see bat shit crazy?? LOL look in the mirror in a week .... on the toilet you go again! enjoy the gift! when you begin shitting blood, go see a doctor ;) of course i am well aware that you will never admit such a thing in public, but you know damned well what happened the last time .... enjoy yourself! it is 12/07/2014 so it is 12/08/2014 where you are, and so it begins! SO much fun you are! thank you once again, never a dull moment with your ranting and raving!"

"[...] have you noticed that you are still using the toilet several times each day? that will continue all week ... blame whatever gets you through the night for it, i care not, it is what it is, and there is not much else to say about it. do what you have to do, and have a nice day!"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/tDgma7tfnH8

So Kinpa imagines poop fantasies and tries to project them onto others who do not agree with him?

Looks that way to me.

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 17 October 2016 09:36:02 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/tDgma7tfnH8
>
> So Kinpa imagines poop fantasies and tries to project them onto others who do not agree with him?
>
> Looks that way to me.

It's the only way to look at it.

Matt Sharpe is a 'bat shit crazy' psychotic insane psychopath.

2 years of records here and then some.

Not in touch with reality, believing irrational thought bubbles, is the definition of insane, and that's our idiot Kinpoop 24/7.

A Fox in the Henhouse. A psychotic delusional mini-master inside eckankar.

Besides that he's a right lowlife of an asshole if ever there was one.

A sick fuck iow!

[Kinpa]

Am I supposed to care how anything looks to you? Try again son....I haven't said anything to sean at all. This is not a conversation with him either. I am speaking ONLY to YOU, understand? Love the way you go dig out comments that are 2 years old too....it looks to me as if the only person talking about feces is you. Nice try, but a complete fail. Weak at best and your logic simply does NOT work in this regard. Try again young man.

[Kinpa]

Enjoy your words...and the effect they return to YOUR door...

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 17 October 2016 09:57:42 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

"Try again young man."

What an endless dick head. We're both older than Kinpoop and far more mature, intelligent, knowledgeable and wise than this Psychopathic IDIOT will ever be.

Puffing up his false self as being like the Confuicious of ECKANKAR

on psychodramas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQHSgjPNSLA

[Henosis Sage]

oooh I'm scared the nutcase has spoken.

[Etznab]

How nice it was of me to illustrate all those examples and all the time it took to do so. I did this so people could look for themselves and not take my word. And I asked for comments.

So it matters not to me if it is Kinpa, J.R., Rob, Rich S., Doug Marman or any new persons coming here who can't be civil enough to discuss this topic in a rational manner.

If people want to talk about, or give opinions about the scope of plagiarisms, of name replacements, of pseudo history and religion then let them look at the examples in black and white. And lets talk about this. I'm doing this, in part, for those trapped in the denial and bargaining stages for death of an ideal.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lb-GG9LrjIk/dkh4HN5nBAAJ

[Henosis Sage]

It's a good thing all those times you have emphasised (quoted) Marman's comment
about how he saw DWTM as the best example of Paul's personal experiences as to
how he was "actually taught" by Rebazar tarzs and the other eck masters.

That he thought it was the best example because never had Doug Marman seen or
heard of any "plagiarisms" in the DWTM texts.

Despite being directly told by me that he was again totally wrong on this belief
too, he has never said a word to me to me or anyone else, not here, not on his
own website publicly. He went silent on the matter for over 12 years now.

There is another aspect to this. You know, listening to all those Initiate
Reports written about and spoken of by Harold Klemp on stage at seminars.

Doug Marman has never reported on his own personal experiences which have
mimicked or reflected what Paul reported in his DWTM book, or in TKTE book
recounting RT walking with him along Puget Sound talking to him in "discourse"
mode. Nor similar to any of the other books he wrote where the eck masters
appeared to Paul T and spoke with him and instructed him. At times waking him
up in his apartment the same as he claimed Kirpal Singh (RS & Ruhani Satsang)
also did regularly in the 1950s.

These kinds of things have never been reported by Harold, or Doug, or Patti
Simpson, nor any of the other many early chelas who knew Paul personally back
then - before he published those books.

Has anyone ever heard of a single Eckist posting to a.r.e. who has reported
similar experiences to what Paul wrote about in the tiger's fang? Where RT, or
Peddar zasqe (PT), or Wah Z (HK) or Darwin Gros aka Dap Ren has taken them in
hand in full consciousness and travelled throughout the inner planes, had other
Eck masters appear and give them personal instruction, and then stood in front
of the Lord of the Plane and been spoken to by them?

Ever? Any stories like this been told by Harold at a seminar? Recounting even his own personal experiences of such training to become the Living ECK master?
No. I know of none.

How about a report via an Initiate report where Harold Klemp the Mahanta the LEM
as Wah Z in clear "physical apparition" exactly as described by Paul Twitchell
right in front of their eyes in their home? Appearing in someone's bedroom and
gave them a personal discourse before escorting them through the God Worlds
Chart for real? I know of no such examples. Not even from Patti Simpson herself
in any of her books and public writings did she ever say such things. Has
anyone?

Davis did in his books only later to disown them and declare they were not
really "true". Maybe Phil Morimitsu's books could fall into this category - in
the Company of ECK masters?

Doug Marman has not. And yet there he is first saying , yes Paul Twitchell did
copy others writings, and plagiarised them, while also saying that there is none
in DWTM, and adding that that is the best example of HOW Paul was trained by the
"eck masters".

This is odd to me because we do know that pretty much ALL of DWTM is copied text
of others. Some of it even coming from Leo Tolstoy and other fiction writers. Much of it actually verbatim copying with next to no editing except for the
inserting/changing things into Paul's Eckankar terminology/semantics.

We have seen that almost all of The key to Eckankar where RT is speaking is the
copied writings of others who had published the source book all before 1961 when
that text by Twitchell is set.

One can also see a difference in the writing of Paul's Letters to Gail to every
other text he has ever written under the Eckankar banner. It does not recount
how the Eck masters taught Paul Twichell directly and personally ala what
Marman's says about it.

I'm throwing this out here because it highlights some of the things that
everyone knows or should already know which really has little to do with the
Plagiarism itself - for it goes beyond the issue of simply copying other peoples
texts. It goes to the teachings itself, the beliefs themselves, and how things
actually have worked or unfolded long after Paul passed on .... it addresses HK
and what he writes versus what Twitchell said and what Harold and Doug believed
about what Twitchell had said how the Eck masters teach "the Chosen Ones" like
Paul, and Harold and Doug and Patti Simpson etc et al.

Doug himself remains silent on these matters. Rob comes here as a High Initiate
and the only thing he has to say is to do the Spiritual Exercises of Eck.

Beyond that man is speechless. Except to say that the plagiarism doesn't matter.

Well I agree the plagiarism (itself, that things were taken form others along
the way) relay doesn't matter one way or antother. But it still exists
nevertheless. So it is a part of Eckankar and it cannot be denied without all
manner of internalised psychological tricks engaging internally.

So if the spiritual exercises of eck are so powerful and useful, then why is
that Paul Twitchell himself never ever addressed his own experiences in his
books .. where Paul used XYZ spiritual exercise, and then reported what came of
it - detailing his inner sojourns and the discourses being told him by these eck
masters?

Because these are not what he wrote about in his books and discourses. The TTF
is plagiarised. The DWTM and the TKTE, and TFC, and the Discourses, and the Talons of Time, and the Shariyat Ki Sugmad are all plagiarised materials from start to finish.

These journeys and experiences are not spoken about by Harold Klemp in his books
and discourses -- his first hand top shelf guides of how the Spiritual Exercises
of ECK manifestly helped him get OOB and travel the inner planes of the God
Worlds and what he was taught by those wonderful ECK masters he wrote about in a
book by that very title.

What did Kal Niranjan have to say to Harold? How did the Spiritual Exercises of
Eck help him get there to hear that discourse from that Lord? That's what I
would like to know.

Not whether or not Harold is still a member of Eckankar in good standing.

There is much more to this Plagiarism issue than just the Plagiarism itself.

But of course those who chose to remain stuck in denial won;t ever be able to
work out what it really means - or what the "Eckankar teachings" really are about.

For ignorance is truly Bliss.

[fife]

Well, there's Harold Klemp's book Soul Travelers of The Far Country that detail H.K.s experiences as he was rising to lead Eckankar.

But what I really like is the "letter from Sat Nam to Kal Niranjan" that Eckankar published for chela consumption. In which Sat Nam tells the Kal Niranjan that Eckankar will be the way to the higher worlds, far country from now on.

For a sheerly audacious, ironic, and stupid way to circle the wagons and rally the troops it's hard to beat an inter office memo from one superior lord of the planes to an inferior lord of the planes.

[Etznab]

Where is that letter from Sat Nam to Kal Niranjan? Is it in a book? A discourse? Is it in The Mystic World? I can't recall that letter.

[Tisra Til]

True that. Or should I say Sat Tat.
Or is it Atma says Sat Tat.
I'm lost...

[fife]

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 5:34:44 PM UTC-4, Etznab wrote:
> Where is that letter from Sat Nam to Kal Niranjan? Is it in a book? A discourse? Is it in The Mystic World? I can't recall that letter.

Mystic World as I remember it. 30-33 years ago.

[fife]

Ha ha ha. Yeah.

[Etznab]

O.K. I might have a copy. Will have to look.

[Etznab]

To study the Eckankar writings and to study the sayings of the Eckankar masters is to study Eckankar history.

I believe things can be learned that were not known years ago, and things that were not revealed generally.

It surprises me that more people aren't researching, studying and learning from the history of Eckankar.

[Henosis Sage]

You forced me to check. I couldn't remember, it's a long time ago.

OK well according to that 'article' and the book, it was FQ who took him to the sugmad. I;ve never read it. RT appeared in his room on a yellow chair, not sure how often. RT and PT took him thru "journeys" and then he woke up from his 'dreams'. and Dap ren was thereabouts. There's some "quotes" he gives from RT and PT "on the inner" in that book. Though imho it's pretty light on. It's a guess but I think he talks more about softball than what the eck masters taught him or showed him about the inner planes etc. He quotes published authors and other religious books more than he quotes eck masters. but yes, my words are not entirely correct and somewhat exaggerated about HK and his writings. He didn't "never" talk about them. He did a few times in +100 books he published. It's better to be accurate so thanks for the reminder. The Record is corrected. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

I should say too, I don;t buy Marge's 7th initiation in a restaurant. Nor Harold's was it 4 or 5 initiations in about 18 months. Let alone the "bridge" incident was his "god realisation" experience.

I do buy his Schizotypal issues though and the haughty narcissism and ego driven "shyness" issues. And I do buy he's probably right about his comment near the end of the book that his mission was to "take the eckankar teachings to the lowlands".

But it is HIS SOLE enterprise (not Soul) therefore he has the right and can do what he wants with it. And if people wish to pay him for the 'privilege' that's their right too. No point arguing about that.

[Henosis Sage]

True. But do you know what really surprises me?

All those times Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs talking why didn't he quote what
"RT really said" instead of using all those 69 known authors and all the rest?

[wernertrp]

I'm astouned.
33 years of Mystic World reports in a bundled Leitz Folder.
So you also can find HK's Report about me ?
In which year and which Folder ?

[fife]

How far is it from the absurd to the ridiculous if you fold space/time so the two points touch?

Do they touch? Do they overlap? Do they intersect? How does that work?

[fife]

Or, rather, what happens if you fold space so distant ridicule and distant absurdity touch one another?

And is a wormhole in three dimensional space actually a sphere?

Is a so-called "black hole" actually folded space? How does so much gravity occur in one place?

[Etznab]

If the black hole is big it can create at least some gravity. Large masses come with inherent gravity.

What I wonder though is where did all the hydrogen atoms come from to create stars and the other atoms?

[fife]

Check out everything that happened in what has to be measured in Planck time from the instant of the big bang onward. It's astounding.