Words Will Make Meaning
Mahavahana
meaning. It seems many eckists here are under the impression that
meaning preceeds descriptive language. But as I pointed out, modern
linguistic theory contradicts this notion. Although the notion seems
very contradictory at first glance, a closer look reveals that words
*do* inform our perceptions, and this includes our perceptions of what
we may term "spiritual experiences" seemingly arising from the "Soul"
levels beyond duality.
Eckists of course scoffed at my suggestion that semantics informs
meaning. Most of these eckists apparently believe that the experience
comes first, and words merely are an attempt to accurately describe the
experience.
But what does the founder of Eckankar say about semantics and Soul
travel? Let's look at the Illuminated Way Letter of August 1967:
"Although many people have never thought about it, semantics do [sic]
play a major part in Soul Travel. In case one does not understand what
the word means, semantics is the relation between symbols, mainly
words, and refers to the human behavior to symbols, including
unconscious attitudes and social and moral laws, reactions to these
words or forms."
I won't type out the entire letter, you can read it for yourselves from
your own copies of IWL. But here is one more paragraph:
"Where does this have anything to do with Soul Travel? It is a major
part of our states of consciousness, as to whether we conform to
certain key words which are poured into our minds and subconscious
faculties. When anyone lays down the phrase that 'My way to God is the
only way,' be careful for he is only trying to postulate us into
submitting to him." (pg. 67)
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
sharon v.c.
Good points, Joe...I just typed up some additional stuff in "write" and
got a bit...<ggg>...emotional? You know, hey....when you find out
you've been lied to DELIBERATELY and mind-controlled and all for 15
YEARS!!! Well...what can I say? I hope one of you calm, intelligent
intellectual detached types will maybe continue on this...you know me,
I'm just ravaged by those menopausal hormonal fluctuations...I think
I'll double up on the estrogen for awhile. Anyway, you know...I'm not
here to try to convince the eckies of anything...most of them have been
here long enough, hey...they can stay where they are...but! I wish
"seekers" would have the opportunity to really look into this before
they get trapped in it....
Iluminated Way Letters, March 1969
Dear Friends:
This month I am taking up the terminology of ECKANKAR for you, since it
is getting rather fouled
up and many mistakes are creeping into the letters of chelas from all
over the world. There is a
vast difference between the ordinary language of man and the words and
meanings of those
traveling the high road to God.
First, I must say that a glossary is being put together for the chelas
in ECKANKAR, and will be
published abou the middle of the year. This will give greater
understanding of the words and
phrases used in the works of ECK. Secondly, I want to get down to the
brass tacks of the way
we think in words and the way they should be used. This is a form of
discipline which you must
accept. Watch your language in speaking or writing to anyone.
"The discourses" is one of the terms we use in ECK. Some chelas
believe they are taking
correspondence courses, and lessons. This is not true in ECK. There
is a difference between
these words. "Discourses" raises the works to a higher level, while
"lessons" puts them on a
very common level of ordinary language. Therefore we use the word
"discourses" for the full
course such as "The Precepts of ECKANKAR," while describing a singular
piece with the course
as a "discourse." This raises the mind into thinking above the
ordinary concept of human
consciousness."
(Note here: I wonder if this is a reference to the "lessons" offered
by Yogananda's Self-
Realization Fellowship...which I subscribed to. I've mentioned
before....I sent for them in
January. They're VERY inexpensive...the cost is enough to cover the
materials & mailing, and
that's it. And...they're PURE stuff, without the eckancrap. Really.
I'm examining them
objectively...no time to pursue it right now...I recommend SRF highly!!
Check it out at
http://www.yogananda-srf.com.)
"Next we take up the word "projection." (snipped a bunch of
eckanstuff about "Soul Travel" ...
"We cannot go any further than this. Soul Travel is the esoteric term
for all chelas.
"Another word is "bilocation." (snipped)
"The word "meditation" .....(snipped)
"Prayer" is another word that we hardly give thought to, for it is such
a used term that none can
have upliftment from it, as happened years ago."
"One word we try to avoid is the word "death." ...
You know, this isn't the chapter I was looking for...perhaps it's even
the wrong book...I'm thinking
of some things that Twitch wrote concerning the need for a specific
language, in more specific
terms....
Just flipped through....now, listen to this, pg. 61: "First, I want to
point out tht breathing exercises
as given by most Yoga systems are questionable. The regulation of
breathing is inclued to lead
one into an unbalanced state and has little to do with whether he can
do Soul Travel. It can stir
up strong emotions of anxiety, guilt, anger, and cause mental
conflicts. This is true of most who
practice the extremely heavy control of breathing exercises."
What an absolute lie!!! I'm not sure what Sant Mat does with
breathing, but yes, it's a part of
SRF/kriya yoga. I *know* from experience....spontaneous experience,
before Eckankar....well,
not to go into details, but my "experiences" were accompanied by very
noticeable changes in
breathing.....and I'm sure that somewhere out there, there are also
purely scientific writings about
breathing & various states of relaxation, awareness, you know...like
biofeedback stuff.
Twitch was just trying to make his cult look better by degrading the
competition. And...I must
say, I feel that he was just trying to make his own lower astral stuff
appear to be something other
than what it was.
Damn, got to get to a scanner!!!
Oh!! The chapter I was looking for is next....Joe, you mentioned it,
it starts out talking about
"semantics."
You should have copied this paragraph, from page 66!!!!!!!! :
"Often we find that these type phrases are used cleverly by someone who
wishes to dominate
us. This is a very subtle attack upon the consciousness of another
individual who desires to pull
others down the survival ladder into a state of consciousness which can
be controlled by them or
their own organization. Then one finds himself without psychic space
of his own and hardly able
to breathe, in a manner of speaking. It is a way of gaining power over
a number of persons and
lifting one's self up into a realm by the inflow of their energies
which are surrendered to him
when giving up."
Geezus....I don't believe this crap!!! This is EXACTLY what I was
feeling the longer I was in
Eckankult! No psychic space of my own and hardly able to breathe! And
yes...the psychic
vampire stuff....giving my own positive energies to the goddam cult!!!!
YES I'M PISSED!!!!
"So many times it is done because the thinking and terminology keeps us
in the lower states."
Yeah....that's where Twitch is NOW....laughing his ass off (except
sadly, he still thinks he's God
& all) ... stuck in his own delusional astral hell that he thinks are
the higher planes!!!
I don't know....I just don't understand people like that!!!!! Twitch
was obviously some kind of
sociopathic pathological liar!!! What a sicko!!!!!!!
So....what long time eckies are programmed with is all this
twitchcrap....and, klemp, having plenty
of brainwashed "truth corps" now, just like HE IS!!! Well...now he's
changing the language....I
remember quite clearly when he announced the world had evolved enough
that we could share
the HU with the lowly alien heathen pagan subhuman veggies....public
worship services....but it
was to be the Hu SONG, not chant....because people might not accept
"chant." And...in Living
Word 2, in the continuing & ever-increasing missionary stuff....telling
people to use "God"
instead of "Sugmad" and "prayer" instead of "spiritual exercises!"
Klemp in The Living Word, Book 2: "The entire ECK spiritual
heirarchy is working
on the ECK missions project."
"The truth about ECK Initiates is that some are good Vahanas, or
missionaries, and
some are not. (...) The first ECKist, the unsuccessful one,
uses old techniques from
ten and twenty years ago. He or she frightens people. (...)
Such topics put new people
off today. It's OK to mention them---they are, after all, a
part of the ECK teachings--
but why dwell on them?
"...the successful one, shows a very different pattern. He or
she is willing to try new
ways of reaching the millions of willing Souls, and works
closely with the ECK
initiates at the Eckankar Spiritual Center. This approach
works. Its success lies
in having the focus on the spiritual needs of the seeker
instead of what a great
teaching *we* represent." (pages 200-201)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Klemp, The Living Word, Book 2: "So, in talking with those in
orthodox religions about the
spiritual exercises, you may sometimes want to use the word *prayer*.
At least they'll
understand it. Later, you can tell them our name for it: the
Spiritual Exercises of ECK, or
contemplation. We need to change the way we talk if we are to bring
the message of ECK
to others." pg. 177
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In "Ask the Master Book 2" Klemp states: "Those who are faint of heart
do
not win missionary or military campaigns. (...) How will ECK and
ECKANKAR become household words? Only by our efforts. It will not
happen
on its own."
-----------------------------------------------------
Twitchler started out by destroying everything else in people's minds,
and replacing it with his
own garbage, "teachings" and special language....now Klump is
"mainstreaming" it....
Hey Joe....do you believe we fell for this crap? I cannot believe I
allowed myself to let this
bullshit sink in the way it did!!!!!
What's the word I've seen used to describe the "holey scriptures?"
Convoluted? Really!!!
It's such a bunch of messed up, confused garbage...you just sort of
blank out and get all
confused & just go do your hypnotic hu-chants & stuff & trance
out....just to escape it....but
that's just making the stuff sink in more, and opening yourself to all
these pseudo-master
idiots playing around with this stuff.....victimizing innocent people
who just don't know any
better....LIKE ME!!!!!!!!! Goddam psychic CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!
Thank you EVERYONE who helped me to wake up, and get the hell out!!!!!
I'll tell you, it makes you just feel like kicking someone where it
hurts!!!!!!!!!!!! Except....those goddam wimpy deluded fruitcake
eckwoose "masters" don't have that particular part!!!!!!!!!
Hugs,
Sharon
<giggle> I love playing Mutha T sometimes!!!!! I remember when my
cousin Jimmy taught me to swear...I was 9 or 10, and didn't want to...
he said "Repeat after me..." So, I did...once I got used to it,
well...gee, it felt GOOD!!!! I save it for special occasions, though,
like ranting diatribes here on ARE!!!
Sharon
>
> Ever hear of a fellow by the name of Noam Chomsky?
>
>
Chomsky is brilliant...but I'd say if there was going to be a quote war,
his writings could be used to prove that yes, the way twitch used
language was to further affect the brains of eckvictims.
When twitch concoted his cult, he recognized that people's beliefs in
the "good" stuff from elsewhere had to be overwritten with his mind-control
stuff. Hence the need for a special cult language, with his special words
to reinforce his cultic "chosen people" elitism and the false belief that
eckankult's "Sugmad" was "higher" than plain ol' God.
klemp is a bit more openly deceptive, I mean really...telling eckmissionaries
not to mention at the beginning that the kult has a different name for
God. Can't fetch the twitchquotes now, either...the ones that say that the
"God" of the rest of the world is really eckankult's "Kal."
klemp, in his "Divine Wisdom," (advice from marketing experts perhaps) has
seen that eckanaids would spread faster using "ordinary" words...people
are too busy nowadays, and can't be bothered with that weird 60's stuff...
I'd say eckwords are more like turds floating on the "Cosmic Sea."
dEmOnSpAwn
SoulWords
since I read him!
There is a logical mystery to words,
and the miracle that there is ANY level of communication here in ARE, with such
(literally) opposing viewpoints.
The inner Word is the cause of all
outer words- like Beethoven composing
outer music while deaf. but not deaf
to the inner music!
Love, David
ken
Windy <saxm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:379D08...@bellsouth.net...
: Sharon wrote:
: >
:
: Only you would use the word "turd" to describe something spiritual. One
: often wonders just why you are here as a human being. Was there some
: sort of mistake made? Did you rip out someones soul and take on the
: body?
:
What Sharon writes is truely vile and offensive. Which directly reflects
upon her and who she is as a person, IMO.
Ken
Michael Wallace
ken <kens...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7nkacf$ir9$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
>
>
> What Sharon writes is truely vile and offensive. Which directly reflects
> upon her and who she is as a person, IMO.
>
Let's look again at what Sharon has written in the past...
Sharon <sharo...@myremarq.com> wrote in message news:7h9tj6
> I'm the one who "diatribes" ....
> Hatred? Hey, you know...yes...I hate
> THE DARK EVIL GHOST OF LANE GOT ME!!!!!!
> >BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Nice sensible sort of girl.... <G>
Love
Michael
arel...@home.com
This is errie how Paul warns people about his own actions.
This is what I've been saying all along...Paul postulating people into
submitting to him.
Lurk
Mahavahana
> What Sharon writes is truely vile and offensive. Which directly reflects
> upon her and who she is as a person, IMO.
Do the words of Paulji reflect on who he was as a person?
Mahavahana
Oh Lurk! There you go with your wild accusations!
"There is no way to God except through the path of ECKANKAR, and there
can be no denying of this." -- Paul Twitchell
Frank Pirchmoser
>Richard Pickett <rfpi...@naxs.com> writes: > Mahavahana wrote:
>>
>> Ever hear of a fellow by the name of Noam Chomsky?
>>
>>
>Chomsky is brilliant...but I'd say if there was going to be a quote war,
>his writings could be used to prove that yes, the way twitch used
>language was to further affect the brains of eckvictims.
>When twitch concoted his cult, he recognized that people's beliefs in
>the "good" stuff from elsewhere had to be overwritten with his mind-control
>stuff. Hence the need for a special cult language, with his special words
>to reinforce his cultic "chosen people" elitism and the false belief that
>eckankult's "Sugmad" was "higher" than plain ol' God.
>klemp is a bit more openly deceptive, I mean really...telling eckmissionaries
>not to mention at the beginning that the kult has a different name for
>God. Can't fetch the twitchquotes now, either...the ones that say that the
>"God" of the rest of the world is really eckankult's "Kal."
>klemp, in his "Divine Wisdom," (advice from marketing experts perhaps) has
>seen that eckanaids would spread faster using "ordinary" words...people
>are too busy nowadays, and can't be bothered with that weird 60's stuff...
>I'd say eckwords are more like turds floating on the "Cosmic Sea."
> dEmOnSpAwn
Are you gays inmates somewhere with access to an ISP?
Please let me know so that I can post you some info.
arel...@home.com
Windy wrote:
>
> arel...@home.com wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > >
> > > "Where does this have anything to do with Soul Travel? It is a major
> > > part of our states of consciousness, as to whether we conform to
> > > certain key words which are poured into our minds and subconscious
> > > faculties. When anyone lays down the phrase that 'My way to God is the
> > > only way,' be careful for he is only trying to postulate us into
> > > submitting to him." (pg. 67)
> > >
> >
> > This is errie how Paul warns people about his own actions.
> >
> > This is what I've been saying all along...Paul postulating people into
> > submitting to him.
> >
> > Lurk
> It seems as if the only people who think they have been had are the
> mealy minded detractors who are easily lead by the tail kicking and
> screaming. What they are screaming makes no sense to anyone but them.
> They are the ones creating their own maze of thoughts.
I not sure what your comments here have to do with my comments about
Paul hypocritically saying, "When anyone lays down the phrase that 'My
way to God is the only way,' be careful for he is only trying to
postulate us into submitting to him."
I mean Paul clearly stated this often the eckankar way to God is the
only way. I can provide a couple of million quotes demonstrating such.
Don't you just love the irony of it?
> Too bad you can't just get a ladder and crawl above the maze and see
> you are not really lost, just going in circles.
To bad you don't know how to respond to a legitimate issue that is
raised in a post.
Now go and collect some toad heads for your cauldron. <ggg> (That CB is
a bad influence <ggg>)
Lurk
Sharon
"Mahavahana" <Mahav...@calistoga.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:53:32 -0400 "ken" <kens...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > What Sharon writes is truely vile and offensive. Which directly reflects
> > upon her and who she is as a person, IMO.
>
> Do the words of Paulji reflect on who he was as a person?
>
Of course not, Joe. Paul, after all was GODMAN...the Mahanta,
the Living ECK Master, the only channel for the ECK on earth.
Born of a virgin. In direct contact with SUGMAD.
*I* am just a lowly heathen pagan subhuman veggie alien enemy
of the eck, doomed to crawl before the Lord of Karma with maggots
dripping from my rotting menopause-ravaged flesh!!
<giggle>
Hey...I thought eckturdwords was pretty funny, but Damn, comparing
the "SUGMAD" to gas, well...<ggg>
Paul Twitchell and his disgusting cult "teachings" DEFILE God and
true spiritual teachings. It's hard for me to find words low
enough to express how I feel about the abomination of ECKANKAR.
I have about as much respect for twitch & his cult as he had for
the rest of the world and everything in it.
My goodness, twitch could certainly dish it out....but his
cultpuppies can't take it, can they?
Hugs,
Sharon
http://members.delphi.com/sharon2000
--
"Happy Happy Joy Joy!!" --Ren & Stimpy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ned
"Mahavahana" <Mahav...@calistoga.com> wrote:
> Some months ago I raised the issue of how words actually create
> meaning. It seems many eckists here are under the impression that
> meaning preceeds descriptive language.
Meaning has to preceed the word describing it. For example, was there a
dog before someone called it a dog? Of course.
I haven't been following what the Eckists have said about this. Just my
thoughts.
But as I pointed out, modern
> linguistic theory contradicts this notion. Although the notion seems
> very contradictory at first glance, a closer look reveals that words
> *do* inform our perceptions, and this includes our perceptions of what
> we may term "spiritual experiences" seemingly arising from the "Soul"
> levels beyond duality.
>
In the case of spiritual experience words *are* the perception. Like the
word "Aum". When chanted, the vibration of the word moves up the major
chakras along the spinal cord. One is literally (no pun intended)
experiencing the word "Aum".
> Eckists of course scoffed at my suggestion that semantics informs
> meaning. Most of these eckists apparently believe that the experience
> comes first, and words merely are an attempt to accurately describe
the
> experience.
Words simply communicate the experience to someone else. In the case of
spirituality or intellectualism, I find people easily slip into
rhetorical discussions. In other words, there is no experience at all,
just abstractions being traded for other abstractions. Like two people
arguing if God exists even though there is no defined meaning or
experience of the word God. Is that what you're talking about, Joe?
Sincerely,
Ned
>
> But what does the founder of Eckankar say about semantics and Soul
> travel? Let's look at the Illuminated Way Letter of August 1967:
>
> "Although many people have never thought about it, semantics do [sic]
> play a major part in Soul Travel. In case one does not understand
what
> the word means, semantics is the relation between symbols, mainly
> words, and refers to the human behavior to symbols, including
> unconscious attitudes and social and moral laws, reactions to these
> words or forms."
>
> I won't type out the entire letter, you can read it for yourselves
from
> your own copies of IWL. But here is one more paragraph:
>
> "Where does this have anything to do with Soul Travel? It is a major
> part of our states of consciousness, as to whether we conform to
> certain key words which are poured into our minds and subconscious
> faculties. When anyone lays down the phrase that 'My way to God is
the
> only way,' be careful for he is only trying to postulate us into
> submitting to him." (pg. 67)
>
> --
> Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
> Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
>
>
--
"Wise men don't like wise men. Wise men like
fools. And you are all such beautiful fools."
-- Ganesh Baba
ken
Mahavahana <Mahav...@calistoga.com> wrote ...
:
: <arel...@home.com> wrote:
: >
: >
: > > "Where does this have anything to do with Soul Travel? It is a major
: > > part of our states of consciousness, as to whether we conform to
: > > certain key words which are poured into our minds and subconscious
: > > faculties. When anyone lays down the phrase that 'My way to God is the
: > > only way,' be careful for he is only trying to postulate us into
: > > submitting to him." (pg. 67)
: >
: > This is errie how Paul warns people about his own actions.
: >
: > This is what I've been saying all along...Paul postulating people into
: > submitting to him.
: Oh Lurk! There you go with your wild accusations!
:
: "There is no way to God except through the path of ECKANKAR, and there
: can be no denying of this." -- Paul Twitchell
Why do you suppose that he did this? These kinds of apparent
contradictions pop up all over the place in Paul's writings. I came
across many when new to the path, as I read EVERYTHING.
I can only think of two reasons he'd contradict himself so often:
1. He was very, very forgetful <g>.
2. He wanted the student to think and question his writings.
Ken
Frank H. Weeden
<snip>
> Paul Twitchell and his disgusting cult "teachings" DEFILE God and
> true spiritual teachings. It's hard for me to find words low
> enough to express how I feel about the abomination of ECKANKAR.
The only thing that is truly disgusting to me, Sharon, is the vile
way that you continue to express yourself. It's hard for me to find
words low enough to express how I feel about what a repulsive toad
you are.
> I have about as much respect for twitch & his cult as he had for
> the rest of the world and everything in it.
That's okay. Your lack of self-respect and dignity show that you don't
even have any regard for yourself, let alone talking about respecting
the rest of the world.
Of course, my intentions are good, Sharon. I'm "saving" you, the exact
same way that you attempt to "save" everyone around you. How utterly
pathetic you are, and how clearly you portray how ugly you are from the
inside out, with every profanity and every ranting and raving post that you
send to this newsgroup. Someone wrote that they thought you were funny, but
they were wrong. You are simply tragic and repugnant.
~Frank~
Sharon
"Frank H. Weeden" <fisa...@united.net> wrote:
> The only thing that is truly disgusting to me, Sharon, is the vile
> way that you continue to express yourself. It's hard for me to find
> words low enough to express how I feel about what a repulsive toad
> you are.
Hello, Frank!!
I understand how you feel. It's not a problem...I have good
memories of you.
Wish you wouldn't use the word "toad" though. I like toads.
It's a shame when we use innocent animals & things as insults.
It's like I told my four-year-old niece recently...June Bugs
think *we're* the big scary ugly monsters.
> That's okay. Your lack of self-respect and dignity show that you don't
> even have any regard for yourself, let alone talking about respecting
> the rest of the world.
On the contrary, Frank...although I understand that you're
expressing your honest opinion...I have a lot of self-respect
and dignity. That's why I left Eckankar.
>
> Of course, my intentions are good, Sharon. I'm "saving" you, the exact
> same way that you attempt to "save" everyone around you.
I don't look at what I'm doing as "saving" anyone, Frank...
although many have expression their appreciation to me and
the other "detractors." Privately. There are things you
don't know, Frank. I'd say most eckists don't...and don't
want to. But that's okay...
I'm simply giving others the opportunity I never had before
I joined Eckankar. The opportunity to embrace God's love
fully and truthfully, without the lies, fear, control, and
abuse of power in Eckankar.
How utterly
> pathetic you are, and how clearly you portray how ugly you are from the
> inside out, with every profanity and every ranting and raving post that you
> send to this newsgroup. Someone wrote that they thought you were funny, but
> they were wrong. You are simply tragic and repugnant.
I understand how you feel, Frank. I feel the same way
about Paul and Harold. And *some* eckists.
The only difference between me and them is that I don't
declare myself God. I don't say I have the highest
consciousness in the universe. I don't start a cult and
sell memberships, and train "TruthCorps" to "infiltrate"
the rest of the world.
I don't have to check out of haunted hotels, or do silly
protection rituals.
I don't threaten people with eternal incarnations in
dark astral hells until they submit to me.
I don't "de-emphasize" the stuff in Eckankar that Harold
admits is there, but doesn't want members talking about.
Just know this, Frank...I am the same inside as I was when
I was an eckist. I've just gotten rid of some delusions
and lies...the ones imposed on me by eckankar.
A.R.E. is...well...just a small dark
place in an otherwise big, bright universe...
It's sort of funny...just before you popped up here again,
I was thinking of you and your family...remembering your
little one's birthday party...and all the love! And...it's
such a miracle, and there's such joy in watching our little
ones grow!! And I know how, for you, well...you can
appreciate the love you have now in ways others can't...
and I don't mean because you've become an eckist...
I know you find the thought that my life is filled with love and laughter
absolutely impossible to believe...but... well, it is. Hey...I can't
believe it, my oldest grandson's voice just changed! It seems like he was
just born yesterday...he was so absolutely beautiful, almost ten pounds,
with beautiful blonde curls...he's still got his adorable rosy cheeks....but
the curls are gone. He's got one of those "spiked" haircuts now...and my
daughter let him get it frosted blonde the way all his friends are... it's
cute! Kids will be kids....
Anyway...darn...I realize my "talking" to you is going to
make you feel even more revulsed...I feel the same way
about quite a few here, actually. I understand.
In the long run, well...one of these days we'll understand.
You can understand right now, just shift your point-of-view
a bit...and you'll know none of this really matters, in the
long run...sort of...
Hugs,
Sharon
"Happy Happy Joy Joy!!" --Ren & Stimpy
Sharon
You know, Frank....I understand that you won't understand
this...but I'm going to say it anyway...I know
how just the sight of my name makes you feel...
But, you know...you're one of the reasons I had to really be
honest with myself, and leave Eckankar...
It was because of good, loving people like you...people I care
about...who deep inside are just beautiful, innocent children
who need so much love...REAL love, Frank. That's got NOTHING
to do with eckankar.
People like you, who are just starting out...well, actually,
people who haven't been caught in it yet...
It wasn't easy to leave, because Eckankar's designed that way...
But...inside me, I knew what was REAL...and I trusted that it
would still be there once I shook off the lies and delusions...
and woke up, and got out of the trap...
I was right, you know. It's more real than ever, since I left.
Best wishes,
Sharon
Frank H. Weeden
>
> You know, Frank....I understand that you won't understand
> this...but I'm going to say it anyway...I know
> how just the sight of my name makes you feel...
Actually Sharon, I have no problem with the fact that
you disagree with Eckankar. I really don't.
> But, you know...you're one of the reasons I had to really be
> honest with myself, and leave Eckankar...
>
> It was because of good, loving people like you...people I care
> about...who deep inside are just beautiful, innocent children
> who need so much love...REAL love, Frank. That's got NOTHING
> to do with eckankar.
Thank you, Sharon, although I am not a child, and I can
honestly say that until I began using the HU in contemplation,
my heart was absolutely closed to love. And now, well, my life
and heart are overflowing.
> People like you, who are just starting out...well, actually,
> people who haven't been caught in it yet...
I'm not "just starting out," and I haven't been caught in
anything, nor have I been deceived. I will say that there
are many things in the ECK Teachings that I don't agree with,
but simply hold them as possibilities. In other words, I have
doubts about many things, but so far, Eckankar has delivered,
where other paths that I've tried have not. As David said, if
I find a path that can help me become more loving, more aware,
and produce greater growth than what I've found so far, I will
happily give up my membership in Eckankar. As an aside, let me
also say that I am not real involved in the outer organization,
nor do I spend much time in the books. The heart of my spiritual
approach to God is through contemplation. At this point, I could
become a member of nearly any religion, or else I could walk my
own way, by myself, without any religion. With Eckankar, I have
found a body of people who share my same, basic beliefs, and I
find that having a spiritual leader is of great benefit. The
outer organization is there if I need it, and it doesn't push
itself on me when I don't.
> It wasn't easy to leave, because Eckankar's designed that way...
I don't understand this. I've known a few people who have left
Eckankar. Compared to what I went through with leaving Christianity,
and later, leaving the Soka Gakkai sect of Buddhism, leaving Eckankar
is a snap. I've voiced doubts about Eckankar, and even voiced my
considerations of leaving at one point. My fellow Eckists have been
understanding, gentle, and let me know that they would support me in
whatever decision I made. This is definitely not the sign of a cult,
and Eckankar is not designed to hold its followers against their will.
To say that Eckankar is designed to imprison its followers is just not
true Sharon.
> But...inside me, I knew what was REAL...and I trusted that it
> would still be there once I shook off the lies and delusions...
> and woke up, and got out of the trap...
Inside you: That's where you will always find what is real! Good
for you for following that and trusting it. But if you were following
what is inside you, how could you ever be lied to or deluded in the
first place? Personally, I am first and foremost, true to myself. My
critical thinking was not "checked at the door" when I signed up for
membership. I saw the transformation that was taking place within me
after using the HU in contemplation for three months prior. Again, as
long as I continue to progress towards my spiritual goals, I will remain
a member of Eckankar. And although you don't believe me, I must say that
the outer organization is not all that important to me. If it were dissolved
tomorrow, I would continue to grow spiritually. The outer forms, books, and
teachings have all pointed the way right back to the inner core of my being.
I have found the way to connect with that, and that's the 95% that really matters.
Not the 5% that makes up the outer organization -- the books and quotes that
people wrestle over, like jackals fighting over a scrap of meat.
> I was right, you know. It's more real than ever, since I left.
Certainly you were right. Your decision was right for you. My decision was
right for me. Each person finds their own way, and of necessity, each person
must. I find the energy of your last two letters to be very kind, loving, and
gentle. We can still disagree and yet, speak in a civil and respectful manner
to each other. For you to take the things that others believe in and liken them
unto excrement, or twist peoples' names to something perverse, is incredibly
hurtful, and so unbelievably awful that it's like being kickeed in the stomach
over and over. So, how 'bout it? Can we talk in a decent manner, in a respectful
manner, and discuss things like human beings?
With Kindness,
Frank
Frank H. Weeden
<Snip>
> I'm simply giving others the opportunity I never had before
> I joined Eckankar. The opportunity to embrace God's love
> fully and truthfully, without the lies, fear, control, and
> abuse of power in Eckankar.
But Sharon, the abuse, control, and profanity that you pour out is
exactly the kind of energy that you claim to despise.
<snip>
> It's sort of funny...just before you popped up here again,
> I was thinking of you and your family...remembering your
> little one's birthday party...and all the love! And...it's
> such a miracle, and there's such joy in watching our little
> ones grow!! And I know how, for you, well...you can
> appreciate the love you have now in ways others can't...
> and I don't mean because you've become an eckist...
>
Thank you. The only reason I am able to be as open to love as I am now,
is a direct result of using the HU, and consciously asking for help in
contemplation, in opening myself to God's love, love for myself, and love
for others. So, in most ways, the results that are manifesting in my life
are directly related to the fact that I began using the spiritual exercises
and the HU as a means to open my heart and deepen my relationship with God.
<snip>
> Anyway...darn...I realize my "talking" to you is going to
> make you feel even more revulsed...I feel the same way
> about quite a few here, actually. I understand.
>
No. I will talk to anyone and listen to anyone. It's the abuse and derision,
deliberate meanness and the twisting of names and words that really hurts.
We can disagree, but we don't need to assault each other, or take the things
that others hold sacred, and descecrate them.
<snip>
> You can understand right now, just shift your point-of-view
> a bit...and you'll know none of this really matters, in the
> long run...sort of...
You're right. In the deepest heart of all things, none of this really matters,
but we are still living in this world. If someone cuts me with a knife, even
though I know that the wound will heal and in the long run, it probably doesn't
atter, it doesn't stop the pain or stem the flow of blood. Maybe we can put away
the knives... At least, I hope so.
~Frank~
Sharon
fisa...@united.net wrote:
>
> Actually Sharon, I have no problem with the fact that
> you disagree with Eckankar. I really don't.
I'm sure you don't. You're not the only eckist who has no
problem with it, actually...
But...more than one of them *do* believe that I will never be
"saved" until I return and submit to the LEM/M...no matter how
many dark, dreary incarnations it takes...
They mean it "lovingly," but...it's usually very subtly
condescending and elitist. Not to mention...totally untrue!
Although they don't realize it...
>
> Thank you, Sharon, although I am not a child, and I can
> honestly say that until I began using the HU in contemplation,
> my heart was absolutely closed to love. And now, well, my life
> and heart are overflowing.
We're all children, Frank. Children of God.
The time was right for you, Frank. Not for eckankar, although
that's where you've sort of settled. It was just time for you to
open to love, and for all that was within you to be free...and
find itself manifested in your life.
My life and heart always overflowed, Frank. Long before eckankar.
>
> > People like you, who are just starting out...well, actually,
> > people who haven't been caught in it yet...
>
> I'm not "just starting out," and I haven't been caught in
> anything, nor have I been deceived.
You haven't been a member that long.
>I will say that there
> are many things in the ECK Teachings that I don't agree with,
> but simply hold them as possibilities.
Actually...I didn't blindly believe everything in the "teachings"
either...just held them as possibilities...but stuff still sank
in, without my being aware of it...
>In other words, I have
> doubts about many things, but so far, Eckankar has delivered,
> where other paths that I've tried have not.
Well...I didn't really try any other "paths." I was on more of a
"non-path." And...it worked for me!! <ggg>
I never looked for anything to be delivered, or results of any
kind, actually...I was always basically content with what I had...
I created my own happiness & joy, you know.
>As David said, if
> I find a path that can help me become more loving, more aware,
> and produce greater growth than what I've found so far, I will
> happily give up my membership in Eckankar.
I daresay, Frank, that whenever you see spiritual truths in any
other paths...you'll do exactly as I did. You'll see "the eck"
and keep renewing your membership.
I've checked out a bunch of them since leaving eckankar...not because I'm
"seeking" ... I just want to be an educated "consumer." A lot of weird
things out there, I'm learning!!
Been sending away for a lot of stuff, checking out real-life and internet
resources...it's *very* interesting. Let me flip through one of the piles
here...TripleAAA renewal, took care of that this morning....phone
bill...Matreiya newsletter...darn, where's the sort of funny one I got from
an "Essene" group...I can become a certified Essene minister (or whatever) in
I believe 1.5 years...Urantia book stuff...interesting, that
one...*extremely* respectful of one's individuality, very serious, very
nice...no pesky follow-up letters. Bunch of stuff...oh, a renewal form for
the Self-Realization Fellowship Lessons. I've said before, this is a *great*
one...I recommend it highly...it's the pure truths without what I and many
others consider the "cultic" aspects of eckankar. In fact, twitchell was a
member for awhile before he started eckankar. Too bad he didn't stick with
it. Lessons are 20 for $14.00...they're send two every two weeks... I don't
know *anyone* who goes through them that quickly. I'm not "doing"
them...just examining them. Pretty awesome, IMHO. Oh...and, I corresponded
with quite a few others at various stages of the "lessons" ... and had to
laugh, at their joy & discoveries & experiences with the Sound, and Light,
and...Love. My laughter was in the joy of what they shared with me...they
were *all* so very sweet...oh, and 60 lessons are only $42.00. Their books
are excellent, too...an application is required, because they want to know
you personally. And...there is always individual, personal guidance & help &
answers to questions. It's a beautiful path. I may decide to explore it
more personally some day...except, well...I don't really need it right now.
Too busy, actually...and I've never really been in a hurry to get anywhere...
I knew love before eckankar. I've written here...I had experiences. I had
no idea what they were. I had a very deceptively misleading dream experience
with Harold Klemp, and after finding the books, wrote for more information
and joined.
Don't want to get repetitive here...
As an aside, let me
> also say that I am not real involved in the outer organization,
> nor do I spend much time in the books.
Well...I took it all quite seriously, the "inner" as well as the
"outer." And, as the words of the LEM/M said to do, I studied the
discourses and books quite seriously. Perhaps even more so because
I wasn't able to get to bookstudies and Satsangs that often...so, I'd
do them "on the inner." You know...like they say about the seminars,
the number of people who are there without their bodies...
The heart of my spiritual
> approach to God is through contemplation.
I spent more time in contemplation than I did reading & studying
the books and discourses, actually...but, they sort of worked
together. Which is what eckankar teaches. I've posted quotes
from Harold concerning this. How the inner & outer work together,
buy the books, tapes, and videos...and HU.
>At this point, I could
> become a member of nearly any religion, or else I could walk my
> own way, by myself, without any religion.
Personally, I hope that's true, and I hope you always feel that
way.
With Eckankar, I have
> found a body of people who share my same, basic beliefs, and I
> find that having a spiritual leader is of great benefit. The
> outer organization is there if I need it, and it doesn't push
> itself on me when I don't.
>
> > It wasn't easy to leave, because Eckankar's designed that way...
>
> I don't understand this. I've known a few people who have left
> Eckankar.
I've known some who didn't have any problem de-connecting, either.
But...the opposite is more often true.
It's not confined to eckankar, of course. It's just typical leaving-a-cult
experiences.
Actually...I was surprised that disconnecting was so difficult...
but, as I did when I was an eckist, well...I looked for "outer"
stuff to sort of explain and confirm my "inner" experiences.
Sort of like...oh, I just posted it, I believe...the author of
the "Dreamweaver Chronicles" (or whatever) having all those holy
fire ecksperiences confirmed by Congress.
Compared to what I went through with leaving Christianity,
> and later, leaving the Soka Gakkai sect of Buddhism, leaving Eckankar
> is a snap.
That's based on your personal experience. I daresay I'm familiar
with quite a few more ex-eckists than you are.
I'd never belonged to any particular sect before...when I was a
little Catholic child, I didn't entirely believe that I'd burn in
hell for going next door to the UMC, really...and yes, I also had
a bit of trouble with the papal infallibility stuff...I guess I
was an odd kid, in a way. Actually, when I was a bit older I
tried real hard to "believe" in the JW stuff...but, it just didn't work.
Didn't like it. Thought it was true...but rejected it. It just
didn't feel right...
Actually...I was quite surprised when I "returned" to the Catholic
church...wasn't looking for or expecting anything, but GEE...stuff
really happens. I'm not what I would call a "good" Catholic, though!
I'm just me...
I've voiced doubts about Eckankar, and even voiced my
> considerations of leaving at one point. My fellow Eckists have been
> understanding, gentle, and let me know that they would support me in
> whatever decision I made.
I'm sure.
> This is definitely not the sign of a cult,
> and Eckankar is not designed to hold its followers against their will.
There is much proof to the contrary, Frank.
My personal experience, both publicly and privately, has been typical
of any other cult-exiting experience.
Paul Twitchell *did* design his cult to hold followers, and to make
members think and feel otherwise.
So...we will have to just disagree on this one. I realize there's no
room for discussion....
> To say that Eckankar is designed to imprison its followers is just not
> true Sharon.
That's your opinion, Frank, and you're entitled to it...just as I and
many others are entitled to the opposite opinion.
>
> > But...inside me, I knew what was REAL...and I trusted that it
> > would still be there once I shook off the lies and delusions...
> > and woke up, and got out of the trap...
>
> Inside you: That's where you will always find what is real! Good
> for you for following that and trusting it. But if you were following
> what is inside you, how could you ever be lied to or deluded in the
> first place?
Very easily, Frank. Because...eckankar was the only explanation I found
for my personal experiences. And that just wasn't true.
Quite simply...eckankar's teachings are quite clear about explaining
away "doubts." They're deliberately planted in us by "the master" for
us to overcome and grow spiritually. Or...they're the "KAL."
I was taught early on...if you pick up an eckbook, you've had your first
initiation whether you know it or not. You're an eckist whether you
know it or not. You've had many opportunities in past lives to follow
the "master" to God, and made the horrible mistake of leaving...
And that word "infiltrate" from Letters to a Chela stuck...that whole book
gave me the creeps, and bad feelings....but, I *knew* it was just because I
wasn't spiritually mature or something, and there was something wrong with
*me.*
Haven't you read the Shariyat, Frank? You said having a spiritual
leader is a great benefit. In what way? Harold repeatedly tells you
to not just read the Shariyat, but study it, contemplate on it, etc.
Isn't the purpose of having a spiritual leader to learn by what he's
teaching?
Personally, I am first and foremost, true to myself. My
> critical thinking was not "checked at the door" when I signed up for
> membership. I saw the transformation that was taking place within me
> after using the HU in contemplation for three months prior. Again, as
> long as I continue to progress towards my spiritual goals, I will remain a member of Eckankar.
You know, I thought my critical thinking wasn't "checked at the door"
either.
I didn't have any miraculous transformation or anything. The experiences I
had before eckankar just cleansed me of a lot of the garbage from too many
years of contact with the JWs. They gave me proof that the God I'd only
imagined truly did exist...in my heart.
But...I was always a very loving person. With a smart mouth at
times!! Basically, though, just very loving. Also...independent,
open-minded, not afraid to speak out, to question...
My experiences didn't change or transform me. They just "enhanced"
me...and purified me of some garbage that had been inflicted on me
against my will. Of course...that's a neverending process in life,
or it should be.
Eckankar interfered, Frank. On the inner, and the outer. But
especially...on the inner. It got between me and God, and my true
experiences...and replaced them with something that for me, was
quite far from "real." I just didn't realize what was happening...
>And although you don't believe me, I must say that
> the outer organization is not all that important to me. If it were dissolved
> tomorrow, I would continue to grow spiritually.
No, I believe you, Frank. I'm sure you would continue to grow
spiritually. Most people do, you know.
<giggle> Yeah, I think it would be nice if the org were dissolved
tomorrow....
>The outer forms, books, and
> teachings have all pointed the way right back to the inner core of my being.
> I have found the way to connect with that, and that's the 95% that really matters.
> Not the 5% that makes up the outer organization -- the books and quotes that
> people wrestle over, like jackals fighting over a scrap of meat.
I suspect, Frank, that you practice a bit of selective reading...
What do you think of the "fear and threat" stuff? And tons of other
stuff I've posted...the books are, after all, "The Word of ECK."
> Certainly you were right. Your decision was right for you. My decision >was right for me. Each person finds their own way, and of necessity, >each person must.
Did you ever get directions from mapquest.com? I have...and would you
believe, a few times, somehow...the directions were reversed! Really!
It said turn left, when that was the *entirely* wrong direction...I
know how to get to my own home, and...the correct way at that particular
place was a *right* turn....
True story, Frank.
>I find the energy of your last two letters to be very kind, loving, and
> gentle.
<giggle> I'd just taken my estrogen...and the way my short-term memory
is going, well...it's entirely possible that I'd already taken it just
a few minutes before...
> We can still disagree and yet, speak in a civil and respectful manner >to each other.
Depends on my mood, Frank.
Well...you're an eckist, so you wouldn't know how cranky having your rotting
flesh infested with maggots makes you...not to mention, I'm a veggie and I'm
allergic to them sort of. And...slow death & all.
Of course, I didn't realize how vile I was until I became an alien
heathen pagan subhuman enemy of the Eck, and had the unpleasant truths
about myself pointed out by those who *know* ... the Great Chosen
God-Realized Truth Corps people...
>For you to take the things that others believe in and liken them
> unto excrement, or twist peoples' names to something perverse, is >incredibly hurtful, and so unbelievably awful that it's like being >kickeed in the stomach over and over.
Tell me about it!! I think you know that when I was an eckist, well... I
really loved & believed in that "path of love" stuff. I didn't show it, you
know...but yeah, I know how hurtful and unbelievably awful it is, like being
not just kicked in the stomach...but stabbed right through the heart. That's
what happened to me here on a.r.e. last summer. And it just got worse...as I
woke up and started re-examining what I thought I believed in.
So...I left Eckankar. Couldn't stay on the path of love I believed in,
as a member.
But you know, when I was an eckist...do you know, the things that the
"detractors" said didn't really bother me. Except, possibly...I may
have found "Monty Cantsin" a bit odd...and of course, I was at first
quite horrified by the Rev. I like him, though. He's a good person.
Didn't understand what he was doing at the time...
What horrified me most of all was....the eckists.
You see, my "inner connection" was so strong that nothing "outer"
could really affect that...
But...the eckists defiled what was, and is, very holy and sacred to
me. They still do, actually.
I can understand, though...if you consider your LEM/M's to be Godmen
and all, well, then words like "twitchler" and "klump" would be
offensive. I don't think Joe & Ben are Godmen, although I like and
respect them both...so I guess that's why I'm not really offended
when they're called "MahaMooMoo" and "Benji." Benji was a good movie,
actually!! And I like cows!! So does my dog, Noodle. He saw his
first one about three years ago, and wants to make friends...I take him
on special moo-cow spotting rides.
Why the heck would a "master" of any kind hold Hitler up as some kind
of good example, anyway? So, sorry...but I think "twitchler" is quite
appropriate. Don't take it personally. And...sorry, don't take it
personally, but...I find "Mahaunta" and a few of the others quite
fitting.
IMHO, Nathan and Joey are asswipes. And PickIt is an unctuous, slimy
weasel. <yawn> Etc. Actually...as far as I'm concerned, they don't
even exist...not worth insulting, actually!
Whoops, sorry, Frank...Oh!! Should've taken the estrogen about an
hour ago..
> So, how 'bout it? Can we talk in a decent manner, in a respectful
> manner, and discuss things like human beings?
Well...how about not discussing anything? There's no sense in it,
actually....
<yawn> Good grief, it's late!
Anyway, Frank...I hope you understand, I've posted often enough...I
"detract" simply because I'd like others to have the chance I didn't
have, and because of many others who have expressed appreciation for
what I'm doing.
Have a nice weekend!
Hugs,
Sharon
>
> With Kindness,
> Frank
>
--
Sharon
Eckankar's Hypnotic "HU"
Think of the subconscious mind as the part of your brain that is most
child-like. It is the area where emotion, fantasy and dreams run
rampant. Without restraint, you would react to emotional stimulus with
extremes of emotional response (ie. anger and rage enough to kill).
The sub- conscious mind can and will believe anything it is told, good
or bad. Protecting us from the obvious effects of our own subconscious
is the conscious mind, which acts as a sort of filter to our
subconscious. It is our conscious mind that asks the logical questions,
that distrusts and effectively protects the subconscious from both undue
trust, and undue response.
Hypnotists use the concept of "suggestibility" to determine the
likelihood that a subject can be hypnotized. This is basically a measure
of the trust the subject has in the hypnotist. If the subject's
conscious mind strongly distrusts the hypnotist, he/she cannot be
hypnotized. Once the level of suggestibility has been established, the
hypnotist then tries to crack through the conscious mind of the subject.
This trick is achieved by getting the conscious mind to relax (be put
off its guard), and/or to be distracted.
The subject is always tried to be made as comfortable as possible, and
always, some sort of repetitive activity is introduced. This can be,
say, a swinging stopwatch, or any sort of repetitive action, including
and especially chanting (ie. saying "oooohm" repeatedly, or counting).
At this point, the subconscious mind is stimulated. It is encouraged to
activite by suggesting to the subject to enter a dream- state.
Gradually, more suggestions are made, and are tested by the hypnotist.
Hypnotists will, for instance, suggest to the subject that his/her hand
is immobile. If the subject is asked to move the hand, and cannot, the
subject is then considered to be entirely suggestible, or hypnotized. It
is at this point that the subject is at his/her most vulnerable, for the
conscious mind can no longer protect the subject. It is critical to
remember that the conscious mind is only a filter. It cannot alter
suggestions made under hypnosis. This iswhy the trick of the hypnotist
snapping his/her fingers and the subject barking like a dog works.
How Hypnosis is Used in Eckankar
One of the major moral responsibilities of the hypnotist is to make
entirely clear to the subject that he/she will be hypnotized. The
conscious mind of most people, when informed that they are to be
hypnotized, will immediately prevent hypnosis from happening. But if you
don't tell someone he/she is to be hypnotized, the conscious mind is not
expecting it, and does not close itself off. I can't imagine an Eck
gathering starting with the warning that its congregants are to be
hypnotized.
Suggestibility is further increased by the expectation that the subject
is to actually "see" and "hear" God. God is, of course, an emotional
concept for many, and the subconcious is already primed before the
hypnosis actually begins. Then the "huuuing" starts, a simple repetitive
activity to further dampen the discerning effects of the conscious mind.
The hypnotist in charge suggests to the congregants the "blue light".
This is the test for suggestibility. As the subjects respond every more
positively to this test, their very imagination of this light deepens
the suggestibility of those that can't "see" it. Soon, most of the room
is hypnotized, and they are suggested by the "discourses" that follow
that their suggestibility to Eckankar is a good thing.
How to Leave Eckankar
It's incredibly tricky for the subconscious mind, once it has built the
level of trust that Eckankar builds, to "snap out of it". For many, the
realizations available on the web are enough to trigger the conscious
mind into action, for others a strong emotional response works similarly
to the old fashioned water in the face, or a slap. Detractors work in
this way. They will either try to bombard the hypnotized with logical
assessments of the cult, or they will try to evoke an emotional response
through overt criticism.
On Leaving Eckankar
To understand the Eckankar "teachings" for the falsehoods they are is to
criticize one's own conscious mind for "letting him/her down". It is
therefore important for the subject to understand that they were
**tricked** into hypnosis. Ex-Eckists and those who have suffered from
other forms of immoral hypnosis often tend to display a high level of
distrust to people and concepts for a long time after withdrawal.
* * * * *
And a special thanks to "Revealer" for this essay...and for his work in
helping to free people from the mind-control cult of Eckankar. Thanks,
Rev!!! ((((((HUGS))))))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SoulWords
>I'm not "just starting out," and I haven't been caught in
>are many things in the ECK Teachings that I don't agree with,
>but simply hold them as possibilities.
That's true for me, Frank, and
there are many things in ECK i still hold as possibilities- being neither for
nor against
is easier than speculating one way or another!>
Frank:
I have
>doubts about many things, but so far, Eckankar has delivered,
>where other paths that I've tried have not. As David said, if
>I find a path that can help me become more loving, more aware,
>and produce greater growth than what I've found so far, I will
>happily give up my membership in Eckankar. As an aside, let me
>also say that I am not real involved in the outer organization,
>nor do I spend much time in the books. The heart of my spiritual
>approach to God is through contemplation.
So obviously, for you, the spiritual
exercises of ECK have worked foryou- and you probably do them creatively and
uniquely, ffitting them to yourself.
> With Eckankar, I have
>found a body of people who share my same, basic beliefs, and I
>find that having a spiritual leader is of great benefit. The
>outer organization is there if I need it, and it doesn't push
>itself on me when I don't.
>. Compared to what I went through with leaving Christianity,
>and later, leaving the Soka Gakkai sect of Buddhism, leaving Eckankar
>is a snap. I've voiced doubts about Eckankar, and even voiced my
>considerations of leaving at one point. My fellow Eckists have been
>understanding, gentle, and let me know that they would support me in
>whatever decision I made. This is definitely not the sign of a cult,
>and Eckankar is not designed to hold its followers against their will.
>
<snip>
> I saw the transformation that was taking place within me
>after using the HU in contemplation for three months prior. Again, as
>long as I continue to progress towards my spiritual goals, I will remain
>a member of Eckankar. And although you don't believe me, I must say that
>the outer organization is not all that important to me. If it were dissolved
>tomorrow, I would continue to grow spiritually. The outer forms, books, and
>teachings have all pointed the way right back to the inner core of my being.
>I have found the way to connect with that, and that's the 95% that really
>matters.
>Not the 5% that makes up the outer organization -- the books and quotes that
>people wrestle over, like jackals fighting over a scrap of meat.
>
I like that analogy- reminds me of the hyenas in The Lion King!
Have your read The Last Battle
by C.S. Lewis where Aslan the Lion
(as a representation of Jesus)
greets in heaven one who sincerely and devoutly prayed to a false god?
He says to him something along the lines of: Every time you
sacrificed, gave
of yourself, did anything noble to Tash
(the false god) it was as if you did it for
Me!
When my followers do anything hurtful, unkind, deceitful in My name
it is as if they do it for Tash.
That 95% is key. If we can
contemplate, give, sactifice for that
formless reality, we are all truly
on the same path. Then we have no energy to tell others of their supposed
wrongness
in pursuing a path we don't like- only
energy to dance with the wonder of the
Formless- that which some call SUGMAD-
but call IT what you will
just keep calling IT!
Love, David
Rich
>
> Eckankar's Hypnotic "HU"
The HU does not belong to Eckankar. It has been used for thousands of
years in many religions.
http://members.aol.com/hu4wahz/hu/Secular/secular.html
Hypnotism in Eckankar? That pseudo psychology is nonsense.
This http://www.eckankar.org/hu.html is how the HU is _really_ used in
and out of Eckankar.
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank H. Weeden
<snip>
I wrote:
> > Thank you, Sharon, although I am not a child, and I can
> > honestly say that until I began using the HU in contemplation,
> > my heart was absolutely closed to love. And now, well, my life
> > and heart are overflowing.
<snip>
Sharon wrote:
> The time was right for you, Frank. Not for eckankar, although
> that's where you've sort of settled. It was just time for you to
> open to love, and for all that was within you to be free...and
> find itself manifested in your life.
See, Sharon? This is where you cross the line. How can you say
what is right for me? You can't. If I am realizing benefit from
it, how can you walk in and say that because something wasn't right
for you, then it's not right for anyone else? In your last letter,
you mentioned how condescending and self-righteous some Eckists are.
But do you realize the level of audacity it takes to tell someone
that their approach and path are wrong for them? Wow... That's really
amazing.
> > I'm not "just starting out," and I haven't been caught in
> > anything, nor have I been deceived.
>
> You haven't been a member that long.
You actually have no idea of how long I've been a member. *shrug*
I wrote:
> >In other words, I have
> > doubts about many things, but so far, Eckankar has delivered,
> > where other paths that I've tried have not.
Sharon wrote:
> Well...I didn't really try any other "paths." I was on more of a
> "non-path." And...it worked for me!! <ggg>
>
> I never looked for anything to be delivered, or results of any
> kind, actually...I was always basically content with what I had...
> I created my own happiness & joy, you know.
I spent 13 years searching with all my heart, picking up one bit
of truth here, another there, and finally had this loose "suitcase"
of beliefs, but no idea of how to apply them. Furthermore, I felt
totally alone in the things I believed, being neither Christian nor
Buddhist, Hindu nor Muslim. The only thing I was missing were the
Light & Sound and the Mahanta. (regardless of *your* feelings about
these things.) This is a path that I have *earned* and proved for
myself. In other words, my beliefs determined my religion. Not the
other way around. In time, my evolving beliefs may determine that
I move on. For now, I am realizing benefit and seeing tangible growth.
> >As David said, if
> > I find a path that can help me become more loving, more aware,
> > and produce greater growth than what I've found so far, I will
> > happily give up my membership in Eckankar.
>
> I daresay, Frank, that whenever you see spiritual truths in any
> other paths...you'll do exactly as I did. You'll see "the eck"
> and keep renewing your membership.
Sorry, but you're mistaken. I see spiritual truth wherever I happen
to find it. I don't switch terms or interchange things. I take other
paths on their own merits, on their own terminology, and I *LISTEN*
to people who talk about the benefit that they've received from
following them. Regardless of my own feelings on Christianity, I
have several friends who are Christians, and I know that they are
finding a closeness with God and a deeper love for others. It's
visible in their actions and in the joy they have for life. This
is where the rubber meets the road. Not in the books, in platitudes,
or anything else.
<snip>
I wrote:
> >At this point, I could
> > become a member of nearly any religion, or else I could walk my
> > own way, by myself, without any religion.
Sharon wrote:
> Personally, I hope that's true, and I hope you always feel that
> way.
I'm sure I will. I'm not one to be led around blindly. (Although
I'm sure that you believe that I am.) *shrug*
<snip>
I wrote:
> I've voiced doubts about Eckankar, and even voiced my
> > considerations of leaving at one point. My fellow Eckists have been
> > understanding, gentle, and let me know that they would support me in
> > whatever decision I made.
> >
> > This is definitely not the sign of a cult,
> > and Eckankar is not designed to hold its followers against their will.
>
> There is much proof to the contrary, Frank.
Please present it. Please show where Eckankar maintains the kind
of hold on its followers as other paths. I have seen nothing that
even comes close to what my experiences have been with other paths.
What happened when you phoned the head office and terminated your
membership and had your initiations erased? Did the person on the
phone begin arguing with you? Did they send someone to your door?
Did they call you at all hours of the night or harass you in any way?
I would venture to say that no, they did not.
> My personal experience, both publicly and privately, has been typical
> of any other cult-exiting experience.
Well, then that's *your* experience. Again, this doesn't mean that
it applies across the board to all people, nor does it indicate that
Eckankar is a cult. It would be more true and responsible to say that
perhaps you walked the path as a cultist, and that you have taken the
experiences of others leaving other paths and adopted them as your own.
Perhaps you even exaggerate things in order to make your point, which is
understandable. I don't fault you for it. And even if all the difficulty
that you allegedly had is true, I don't believe that this is common to
a great number of people who leave Eckankar.
> Paul Twitchell *did* design his cult to hold followers, and to make
> members think and feel otherwise.
Uh... Okay. LOL Don't club me over the head with the quotes and the
books again. I've read it all before, and it's old and tedious. It's
easy to be selective and overlook the portions that are loving, and
speak of God's love, compassion, and mercy. Just the way that people
who hate Christianity take portions of the Bible and hold them up as
examples of what a terrible God the Christians worship. Anyone can twist
anything to their own purpose and their own end.
> So...we will have to just disagree on this one. I realize there's no
> room for discussion....
There's always room for discussion, but not if you're attempting to
convince me or change my mind against my will, or tell me that my
own observations and experiences are somehow not valid.
<snip>
I wrote:
> > Inside you: That's where you will always find what is real! Good
> > for you for following that and trusting it. But if you were following
> > what is inside you, how could you ever be lied to or deluded in the
> > first place?
>
> Very easily, Frank. Because...eckankar was the only explanation I found
> for my personal experiences. And that just wasn't true.
Of course not, Sharon. I've had other dreams of other masters, long
before ever finding anything about Eckankar, or knowing anything about
an Inner Master, or anything else. Again, I'm not bending myself to
fit with Eckankar. My beliefs came before I found the religion. For me,
that's the way it has to be. After Christianity, I was done with faith.
No way. If I can't see something, have it proved to me, or weigh it in
the balance of personal experience, then I don't waste any time on it.
> Quite simply...eckankar's teachings are quite clear about explaining
> away "doubts." They're deliberately planted in us by "the master" for
> us to overcome and grow spiritually. Or...they're the "KAL."
This isn't the explanation that I've found, when I've voiced doubts.
Instead, I've been told that doubt is simply part and parcel of spirituality,
and that I will have doubts right up until the very end. I'm comfortable
with that. As long as I have doubts, I know that my critical thinking is
intact. I'm glad that no one is trying to force me to believe anything.
This "forcing" is such a common thing to most religions and cults. The
lack of this in Eckankar is another example of why Eckankar doesn't fall
into the classification of "cult."
> I was taught early on...if you pick up an eckbook, you've had your first
> initiation whether you know it or not.
I've never heard this, nor was it my experience at all. I first found
"Key To Secret Worlds" when I was 16 years old. I read it, and set it
aside. There was nothing special that took place, except that several
years later, after I had exhausted everything else, it came around again.
This time, I was ready to examine it on a deeper level. Nothing mysterious
or "initiatory" about that.
> You're an eckist whether you
> know it or not. You've had many opportunities in past lives to follow
> the "master" to God, and made the horrible mistake of leaving...
This is one of those concepts that I look at as, "Maybe, Maybe not." *shrug*
It just doesn't matter very much to me. Right now is right now. What happens
happens. If former lives are important, they will surface. If this is true,
the truth of it will surface. Until then, it's only a supposition or possibility,
as far as I'm concerned.
> And that word "infiltrate" from Letters to a Chela stuck...that whole book
> gave me the creeps, and bad feelings....but, I *knew* it was just because I
> wasn't spiritually mature or something, and there was something wrong with
> *me.*
Well, like I said, I take all of that stuff with a grain of salt.
And I think we all fall into times of doubting ourselves. It takes
a lot of courage to believe in what we know, and to follow our hearts.
Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for your decision to leave
Eckankar, Sharon.
> Haven't you read the Shariyat, Frank? You said having a spiritual
> leader is a great benefit. In what way? Harold repeatedly tells you
> to not just read the Shariyat, but study it, contemplate on it, etc.
> Isn't the purpose of having a spiritual leader to learn by what he's
> teaching?
I've read the Shariyat. Both books, cover to cover. It has a lot of
dogma in it, like the texts of any other religion. It just doesn't
have that much of an effect on me. Some of the Eckists here are
studying "The Slow Burning Love of God." I find that I gain new
insight and fresh vision into parts of myself that I struggle with,
from Sri Harold's talks and writings. Of course, you aren't going
to believe anything I say, and there's more to having a spiritual
leader than I can explain here anyway, so I guess there's really no
point in elaborating on it. I'm not interested in holding my own
experience up to your speculation, derision, and let you sling mud
at it.
<snip>
> I didn't have any miraculous transformation or anything. The experiences I
> had before eckankar just cleansed me of a lot of the garbage from too many
> years of contact with the JWs. They gave me proof that the God I'd only
> imagined truly did exist...in my heart.
This is what I found too. That the God I Knew existed truly did,
and there was a way to come closer to IT/Him/Her.
<snip>
> My experiences didn't change or transform me. They just "enhanced"
> me...and purified me of some garbage that had been inflicted on me
> against my will. Of course...that's a neverending process in life,
> or it should be.
I agree. It's called growth.
> Eckankar interfered, Frank. On the inner, and the outer. But
> especially...on the inner. It got between me and God, and my true
> experiences...and replaced them with something that for me, was
> quite far from "real." I just didn't realize what was happening...
Well, I'm walking the path in my own way. I always have been. You
spoke of being enhanced. This is what Eckankar has done for me.
The spiritual walk comes first. The belief-system comes second.
Getting the cart before the horse, so to speak, is a big mistake,
in my opinion and experience.
> <giggle> Yeah, I think it would be nice if the org were dissolved
> tomorrow....
Well, that's like saying that because a certain vitamin made you ill,
that it should be taken off of the market, regardless of how many other
people it helps.
> I suspect, Frank, that you practice a bit of selective reading...
I use what is useful, practical, and applicable to me, personally.
You practice selective reading in posting the "fear and threat" stuff.
So? It's all in what we choose to focus on.
> What do you think of the "fear and threat" stuff? And tons of other
> stuff I've posted...the books are, after all, "The Word of ECK."
It doesn't mean a lot to me. I refuse to be afraid or threatened, so
I don't focus on it. The Bible is full of such things, as is just about,
every other "holy" text of world religions. So? Like I said, it's what
we choose to focus on.
> Did you ever get directions from mapquest.com? I have...and would you
> believe, a few times, somehow...the directions were reversed! Really!
> It said turn left, when that was the *entirely* wrong direction...I
> know how to get to my own home, and...the correct way at that particular
> place was a *right* turn....
>
> True story, Frank.
Yeah, I don't think much of Maquest. If the direction of the ECK Teachings
was running counter to the direction that my heart was telling me to go,
I would leave. It's as simple as that. This was obviously your experience,
and you left. Good for you! I still don't understand why you have to express
yourself in such a bitter and vile manner, though. *shrug*
> > We can still disagree and yet, speak in a civil and respectful manner >to each other.
>
> Depends on my mood, Frank.
Well, I'm not going to be your doormat, and I'm not going to put up with
being abused by you. I've enjoyed our communication so far, but if it
disintegrates into garbage, you'll have to find a different audience. *shrug*
> Well...you're an eckist, so you wouldn't know how cranky having your rotting
> flesh infested with maggots makes you...not to mention, I'm a veggie and I'm
> allergic to them sort of. And...slow death & all.
Jeez... Don't make me out to be some "holier-than-thou" person, Sharon.
I don't think I've ever treated you that way, and my intentions have never
been what you are implying. Give me a break.
> Of course, I didn't realize how vile I was until I became an alien
> heathen pagan subhuman enemy of the Eck, and had the unpleasant truths
> about myself pointed out by those who *know* ... the Great Chosen
> God-Realized Truth Corps people...
Whatever... I fail to understand what this has to do with the things
we were discussing. Why do you have to start being sarcastic and derisive?
What good does that do? None. This is exactly the kind of garbage I'm
talking about.
> >For you to take the things that others believe in and liken them
> > unto excrement, or twist peoples' names to something perverse, is >incredibly hurtful, and so unbelievably awful that it's like being >kickeed in the stomach over and over.
>
> Tell me about it!! I think you know that when I was an eckist, well... I
> really loved & believed in that "path of love" stuff. I didn't show it, you
> know...but yeah, I know how hurtful and unbelievably awful it is, like being
> not just kicked in the stomach...but stabbed right through the heart. That's
> what happened to me here on a.r.e. last summer. And it just got worse...as I
> woke up and started re-examining what I thought I believed in.
>
> So...I left Eckankar. Couldn't stay on the path of love I believed in,
> as a member.
The path of love is still the path of love. Love does not spit on the things
that others hold sacred and dear. So what path are you on now? The path of
anger, bitterness, and doing your very best to hurt others? It certainly
seems so, and you're doing a wonderful job of it.
> But you know, when I was an eckist...do you know, the things that the
> "detractors" said didn't really bother me. Except, possibly...I may
> have found "Monty Cantsin" a bit odd...and of course, I was at first
> quite horrified by the Rev. I like him, though. He's a good person.
> Didn't understand what he was doing at the time...
>
> What horrified me most of all was....the eckists.
Well, I can't vouch for anyone but myself. Do you find me horrifying?
If not, then why do you speak to me the way that you do, further down
in your response? I don't deserve this.
> You see, my "inner connection" was so strong that nothing "outer"
> could really affect that...
>
> But...the eckists defiled what was, and is, very holy and sacred to
> me. They still do, actually.
Well, I *am* sorry for calling you a toad. Mea culpa. <G>
> I can understand, though...if you consider your LEM/M's to be Godmen
> and all, well, then words like "twitchler" and "klump" would be
> offensive.
Regardless of my opinion of either of them, it's called common
decency, Sharon. It seems to be a concept that eludes you, or
that you purposely ignore.
> Why the heck would a "master" of any kind hold Hitler up as some kind
> of good example, anyway? So, sorry...but I think "twitchler" is quite
> appropriate. Don't take it personally. And...sorry, don't take it
> personally, but...I find "Mahaunta" and a few of the others quite
> fitting.
I just think it's ugly, sad, and childish. This isn't to say that I
find *you* to be ugly, sad, or childish, but it really kills any sort
of chance at dialog, wouldn't you agree? What possible purpose can this
serve? (Other than for you to use these things as your personal punching-
bag, and a platform for your juvenile humor)
> IMHO, Nathan and Joey are asswipes. And PickIt is an unctuous, slimy
> weasel. <yawn> Etc. Actually...as far as I'm concerned, they don't
> even exist...not worth insulting, actually!
Good. Then stop already. Jeez... You sound like a 12-year old.
> Whoops, sorry, Frank...Oh!! Should've taken the estrogen about an
> hour ago..
Nope. You can't blame it on hormones, Sharon. I don't buy it.
Jeez... At least be responsible for the kind of bile that you
spew into this newsgroup.
> > So, how 'bout it? Can we talk in a decent manner, in a respectful
> > manner, and discuss things like human beings?
>
> Well...how about not discussing anything? There's no sense in it,
> actually....
Thanks for the slap in the face. Do you feel better about yourself now?
> Anyway, Frank...I hope you understand, I've posted often enough...
No. I'm sorry. I don't understand your nastiness and the way that you
vent your anger on me, when I've never done anything to you to warrant
this.
> I
> "detract" simply because I'd like others to have the chance I didn't
> have, and because of many others who have expressed appreciation for
> what I'm doing.
Detracting is one thing. The things you say and the way that you express
yourself (as illustrated above) are something else altogether.
>
> Hugs,
Another slap in the face? No thank you.
> Sharon
~Frank~
Sharon
soul...@aol.com (SoulWords) wrote:
> Frank wrote:>
> >I'm not "just starting out," and I haven't been caught in
> >are many things in the ECK Teachings that I don't agree with,
> >but simply hold them as possibilities.
>
> That's true for me, Frank, and
> there are many things in ECK i still hold as possibilities- being neither for
> nor against
> is easier than speculating one way or another!>
Lies are lies. Plagiarism is plagiarism. Deception is
deception. Manipulation is manipulation. Threats are
threats.
Whether you're for or against facts is irrelevant.
> Frank:
> I have
> >doubts about many things, but so far, Eckankar has delivered,
> >where other paths that I've tried have not. As David said, if
> >I find a path that can help me become more loving, more aware,
> >and produce greater growth than what I've found so far, I will
> >happily give up my membership in Eckankar. As an aside, let me
> >also say that I am not real involved in the outer organization,
> >nor do I spend much time in the books. The heart of my spiritual
> >approach to God is through contemplation.
>
> So obviously, for you, the spiritual
> exercises of ECK have worked foryou- and you probably do them creatively and
> uniquely, ffitting them to yourself.
And...as long as the "creative" doing of the spex leads one to retain
one's membership in the organization, they are valid.
Otherwise, it's "do the 20 minutes a day, same time, same place" and
if you don't, you were a BAD eckist...and a pawn of the KAL.
Living Word, Book 2, page 188: "A common reason for failure with the
spiritual works is a lack of discipline in the practice of the Spiritual
Exercises of ECK. They must be done as stated, and regularly. Experiment
*occasionally* with them; after all, they are *creative* techniques."
This is a bit contradictory, as is everything in the "outer"
teachings...although on page 187, Klemp states: "The only purpose of the
outer teachings is to lead you, in the most direct way, to the inner worlds."
> >
> I like that analogy- reminds me of the hyenas in The Lion King!
> Have your read The Last Battle
> by C.S. Lewis where Aslan the Lion
> (as a representation of Jesus)
> greets in heaven one who sincerely and devoutly prayed to a false god?
> He says to him something along the lines of: Every time you
> sacrificed, gave
> of yourself, did anything noble to Tash
> (the false god) it was as if you did it for
> Me!
> When my followers do anything hurtful, unkind, deceitful in My name
> it is as if they do it for Tash.
<giggle> Nice story. C.S. Lewis is awesome...I love his
non-fiction books, too. He was a strong Christian, for those
who aren't familiar with him.
> That 95% is key. If we can
> contemplate, give, sactifice for that
> formless reality, we are all truly
> on the same path.
Any statisticians around, by the way...darn, I lost the book & page,
but ran across it the other day...Harold sort of subtly trashing &
denigrating other religions...giving percentages of membership which
made other religions seem relatively insignificant...when I find it
I'll post it. But...last on the list, of course, was eckankar. It
stated that 2% of the world's population were members...higher than
the statistic for the Jews, which were in the paragraph immediately
preceding it. I'll have to check that one out. I'm not one of those
math people.
Then we have no energy to tell others of their supposed
> wrongness
> in pursuing a path we don't like-
A bit subtly condescending here, David. In other words, I should
just shut up and let eckankult continue unhindered in the "missionary"
program started by twitch, and continued to this day...
only
> energy to dance with the wonder of the
> Formless- that which some call SUGMAD-
> but call IT what you will
> just keep calling IT!
Perhaps in honor of our dance partner, who is NOT the eckword SUGMAD...
we want to share the love & joy we've found beautifully renewed in being
free of a deceptive cult, when the *real* music has been overwritten by
the mediocre "sound" of false teachings and a false "master" ... and
when the delusional false forms of a cult has INTERFERED with, and
tried to replace the irreplaceable....
Perhaps some of us find the dance quite energizing...and yes, there are
many forms of dance...for example, one's fingers dancing over the
computer's keyboard....
There are many possibilities, yes...
Sharon
"Happy Happy Joy Joy!!" --Ren & Stimpy
Mahavahana
>
> Some months ago I raised the issue of how words actually create
> meaning. It seems many eckists here are under the impression that
> linguistic theory contradicts this notion. Although the notion seems
> very contradictory at first glance, a closer look reveals that words
> *do* inform our perceptions, and this includes our perceptions of what
> we may term "spiritual experiences" seemingly arising from the "Soul"
> levels beyond duality.
Well, Joe, it seems that you know as much about psycholinguistics as
you do
about Eckankar, that is, next to nothing.
Ever hear of a fellow by the name of Noam Chomsky?
Chase: What is the relationship of language to thinking?
Chomsky: We can't answer that because we have no clear conception of
what
thinking is apart from some of its manifestations. Some of the
manifestations of
thinking are language and, of course, there has to be a close relation.
Introspectively we're often very conscious of thinking in words. But
we're also
conscious of thinking without words. For example, it's common
experience to say
something and retract it, to say, "No, that's not what I meant." Then
I'll try
saying it a different way and finally I'll formulate what I really
meant. How do
we interpret that? Presumably, I intended to
express a certain thought -- whatever that means. I tried, but the
linguistic
mechanism didn't quite work. I compared it with the thought I had in
mind.
Insofar as experiences like that are real, we can see that thought and
language
are not the same thing.
Chase: So you solve the problems without needing to articulate them?
Chomsky: Right. Here's another example. You recognize someone as the
same person
you saw
before somewhere. There's plenty of thinking going on, but there's no
way of
describing it, and there is no reason to doubt that animals do
something very
much like what we do at some level.
Chase: I`ve read that psychologist Peter Marler who has done work on
bird song
says,
"The ability to hear rhythm seems to be present early in animal
evolution but
the ability to hear pitch relations may be unique in humans." He also
says that
"For too long those studying language development in people have
over-emphasized
cultural and social influences at the expense of the biological side."
Isn't
that what you're saying, too?
Chomsky: Our work emphasized the biological side from the very
beginning. We've
assumed that the capacities you and I have, to speak and understand,
extend
vastly beyond our experience. Now, from a behavioral science point of
view that
comes as quite a shock. In the 1950's if you asked people in psychology
or
linguistics to comment on how language is acquired, they would say the
big
problem is why it's so hard to acquire such a simple thing. The
standard problem
was thought to be one of over-learning. Why does it take so much time
for the
child to pick up this trivial thing? As soon as we begin to look
seriously at
the capacities that you and I have, instead of just organizing
data around us, we find that the problem is the exact opposite. How do
we know
so much, having had such impoverished exposure?
Chase: When you say "know so much," you're talking about language?
Chomsky: Yes. You hear sentences now that are radically different from
those
you've heard in the past. But you can understand them. And if I shifted
a couple
of words around, you'd recognize it to be gibberish. That's what goes
on in
normal speech and when you look at it closely, you quickly discover
that the
properties of language that you and I have mastered, or any child has
mastered
-- even the most simple properties -- involve things for which we have
had
minimal, if any, exposure. That's true with the simplest part of
language, like
word learning. You learn the meaning of a word --
but meaning is a very complicated thing. A dictionary doesn't come
close to
defining any word. It only gives hints that you can use as an
intelligent human.
If you really try to give a precise characterization of a word like
"house" or
"chase," you'll find it's remarkably intricate.
Chase: Could you give me an example.
Chomsky: Take, say, the word "building." If I say that somebody sees
Building
20, the building we're in, you know they are outside. Right?
Chase: Right.
Chomsky: The only way you and I could see Building 20, sitting where we
are, is
if there were a mirror outside that window, and we looked at the mirror
and saw
Building 20 reflected. That already tells us that a building, or a box,
or a
house, is not just the physical entity itself. Rather its exterior
surface has a
special status. There's other evidence that supports the same
conclusion. Words
like "house," "building," "airplane," and "box" have very strange
properties
which we come to know without any experience. Nobody ever taught us
that if a
house is brown, that means its exterior is brown. There's an immense
amount that
we know about words that we were never taught.
Chase: What does this mean?
Chomsky: What you know can only come from two sources -- inside and
outside. If
it doesn't come from what's outside us, from our experience, it's got
to come
from our inner nature. Having a language is something like having arms,
not
wings. Or like undergoing puberty. These properties are not simply due
to the
nutritional environment of the embryo.
Chase: You're saying it's part of our biological design.
Chomsky: Yes. Contrary to what people thought, language is not taught,
not even
learned. It's something that your mind grows in a particular
environment, just
the way your body grows in a particular environment. Now your shape,
how heavy
you are, or the onset of puberty may vary depending on environment,
nutritional
level, etc. Normal physical development is always triggered by external
phenomena, and also responds in some modified way to external
phenomena. But its
major properties are built in. And so is language. A child can't help
acquiring
it, though we can improve the way it's acquired as we can improve the
way a
child walks, marginally. Maybe it will walk two weeks earlier but it's
going to
walk, because it's a human.
http://www.worldmedia.com/archive/interviews/92-chase.html
Oh, and by the way, Joe, saying "semantics informs meaning" is the same
as
saying "the study of meaning in language forms informs meaning." Do you
have the
foggiest idea what you mean?
rfp
--------
Thank you for the Chomsky quote Richard. I found it interesting.
Would that someone in Eckankar had such insight.
I used the word "semantics" in the same context that Paulji used the
term. Paulji pointed out in his letter to the eckankar membership that
the words we use to describe our "inner reality" also *inform* our
perceptions *of* that inner reality. That is why Paulji argued that
the words we choose to portray our spiritual activities and states are
important.
Paulji well knew the power of words to inform reality. Just as
politicians do. Just as marketing execs do. Just as military leaders
do.
That is why Paulji wrote and wrote and wrote so many books and coined
parochial terms like Eck, eckankar, and living eck master. That is
also why Paulji stole from other authors -- "they said it better than I
could." Paulji knew a good thing when he saw it (good rhetoric that
is) and applied this rhetoric in an effort to reach new members of
eckankar.
Paulji understood the value of self promotion. That is why Paulji
wrote his own hagiography, aided and abetted by Brad Steiger. Paulji
well understood the power of words to inform meaning and perception.
Paulji also understood the value of repetition, and the power of
association, and all for the purpose of establishing personal
authority.
Paulji's personal authority was established by -- yes, you guessed it
or at least you should have by now -- Paulji's own writing! That is,
Paulji's own *words* created Peddar Zasque, the Mahanta, the Living ECK
Master.
Not someone else's words -- Paulji's words.
Words *will* make meaning Richard.
Case in point: perhaps if you keep repeating that I don't understand
anything at all about Eckankar, some people will believe you. And why
not? People have believe stranger things by far just by virtue of
incessant repetition and ridicule.
Read what Paulji wrote about ridicule in COMPILED WRITINGS!
Galuuk
<<< I spent more time in contemplation than I did reading & studying
the books and discourses, actually...but, they sort of worked
together. Which is what eckankar teaches. I've posted quotes
from Harold concerning this. How the inner & outer work together,
buy the books, tapes, and videos...and HU. >>>>
Sharon, you have admitted on a number of occasions that you DID NOT practice
the spiritual exercises of Eckankar. The spiritual exercises are contemplative
exercises----there is no other way to describe them.
Just what is this new twisted version of your memory that you are trying to
pawn off on us??? Is this some devious way to draw Frank into one of your
merry-go-round conversations?? Frank has stated on a number of occasions that
it has been the sound of the HU that has opened his heart to love.
You trying to liken yourself and your past activities to Frank's is not only
blatantly false, it is conciously diabolical. There is no parallel between
your past efforts with Eckankar and Frank's current relationship with it.
You are LYING again Sharon. I'm just trying to understand your motive for
doing so.
Joey
At the end of information there is knowledge.....
At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
Galuuk
store. I asked for some meal worms, some wax worms, and some maggots. The
clerk put up two little plastic cups; one with wax worms, the other with meal
worms.
He then looked at me and asked "How many maggots do you want?"
I said "About a buck's worth". (a buck's worth is usually about 50-100)
He said "Look, it's getting pretty late in the season for maggots. I have a
bunch of them back here in the fridge. How 'bout you give me 2 bucks and I'll
give you the whole bag. If I keep them much longer they'll begin to
turn(change to flies)."
I said "Sure, okay."
He goes to the back room and brings out a bag about as big as a five pound bag
of flour.
I said "Geez, man.....how many damn maggots are in there???"
He said, "About 8 to 10 thousand"
"What the hell am I going to do with 10,000 maggots???"
He laughed. Then he said, "If nothing else, you could chum for trout. Trout
love maggots."
"I know how much trout like maggots, but I could be chumming for a week" I said
with a smile.
He continued, "Besides, you could take the maggots and scatter them in the
house of someone you don't like. Where are you going fishing anway?"
"Up north," I said. "Near Sinnemahonning. God's country."
I just chuckled a little, took the maggots, put them in a paper bag to keep
them cool, and went on my way.
I fished for a couple days. Didn't catch any...water was too clear. Chummed
for trout....they ate 'em up like ET doing Reese's Pieces, but they wouldn't
bite on my hook.
I still had several thousand maggots left....
There's a little bait store just a couple minutes from my cabin. I took the
maggots down to the little lady who owns it and asked her if she could use
them. She gave me a broad smile and said "Sure!"
There were about 5 guys just walking in her store. "I can't even order these
little critters this time of year," she said. "Trout love them too. You go
ahead and take anything from the store you like."
I left the store smiling.....
sharon v.c.
On 05 Aug 1999 16:38:42 GMT gal...@aol.com (Galuuk) wrote:
> Sharon says......
>
> <<< I spent more time in contemplation than I did reading & studying
> the books and discourses, actually...but, they sort of worked
> together. Which is what eckankar teaches. I've posted quotes
> from Harold concerning this. How the inner & outer work together,
> buy the books, tapes, and videos...and HU. >>>>
>
>
> the spiritual exercises of Eckankar. The spiritual exercises are contemplative
> exercises----there is no other way to describe them.
DUH JOEY!!!! This is OLD. VERY OLD.
I didn't do my stupid 20-minutes a day, same time same place.
Here, I was specifically referring to my earlier years in the cult....
If you would go over ALL my posts, Joey, I even stated here that staying
OUT of contemplation was a discipline for me....
>
> Just what is this new twisted version of your memory that you are trying to
> pawn off on us??? Is this some devious way to draw Frank into one of your
> merry-go-round conversations?? Frank has stated on a number of occasions that
> it has been the sound of the HU that has opened his heart to love.
Joey, you are such an incredible jerk.
>
> You trying to liken yourself and your past activities to Frank's is not only
> blatantly false, it is conciously diabolical. There is no parallel between
> your past efforts with Eckankar and Frank's current relationship with it.
>
> You are LYING again Sharon. I'm just trying to understand your motive for
> doing so.
I don't lie, Joey. Give it up, asswipe.
>
> At the end of information there is knowledge.....
> At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
> At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
And at the end of Joey is something that he should just stick his
incredibly swelled head into, and leave it there....
dEmOnSpAwN
sharon v.c.
On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:53:06 -0500 Windy wrote:
>
> I believe Sharon is just remembering things with a little glitter added
> for affect!
> Windy
>
Actually, Rita....it should be "effect."
Me