The Life of Shiv Dayal Singh
Michael Turner
(c) May 1996 - part 2
SAINT OF CIRCUMSTANCE:
SHIV DAYAL SINGH ("SOAMI JI DAYAL"),
Modern Founder of the Light & Sound Teachings
- by Michael Turner
I really feel at a loss of trying to do justice in talking
about Soamiji Maharaj. A soul of this magnitude is nearly
beyond description - or comprehension. One thing I would
like to say is that we all owe Him our deepest gratitude.
Everyone - virtually everyone - who is currently studying the
Light and Sound Teachings, regardless of whom their chosen
Satguru is, is indebted to Soamiji. For He is the spiritual
great-great-great grandfather of us all. Virtually every
significant Light and Sound Lineage can be traced back to
Soamiji Maharaj - Radhasoami Satsang Beas, Soamibagh,
Sawan-Kirpal Ashram and Suma Master Ching Hai (among
others) in the east, and Eckankar, ATOM, MasterPath and
MSIA in the west - we are all His children's children's
children's children.
"`How does one die daily and yet live?'
This is the seventh spiritual question which one
must confront once he steps out on the pathway
to the Absolute. The answer is simple if you
know Shabda Yoga - that is, you must learn
to leave the body at will and dwell on the
other planes . . ."
- Paul Twitchell: Letters to Gail II, p. 140
"I have a book in my collection called
å…¨ar Bachan' . . . which is the teachings of the
Sound Current, and acts practically as my Bible!"
- Paul Twitchell: "Letters to Gail II", p. 149
Soamiji Shiv Dayal Singh's "Sar Bachan Radhasoami
("Sar" meaning "real, true or eternal," and "Bachan" meaning
"teachings" - which can be translated as the "Teachings of the
Eternal") are landmarks in this path, offering detailed descriptions
of Soamiji's journeys through the inner planes, and solid instruction
about the nature of God, Guru and Naam, and how to properly
approach this path. From here out, I think I'll just try to let
Soamiji speak for Himself.
In Sar Bachan Poetry: Volume one, He makes the
following comments about the inner trek:
"I experienced the bliss of Nam, in the
company of Guru I gave up the pleasures of
the world, realizing that these are transitory
and unreal. Having curbed my mind, I got
dyed in the colour of Nam. I burnt Krodh
(anger) and adopted Chhima (patience and
forgiveness). Today I obtained the treasure
of Nam. I cast off Lobh (avarice and greed),
realizing that it is poor. When I ascended to
Akash, I attained Nam; I saw light and the
darkness of Moh (attachment) was gone.
"In Trikuti, I was delighted to receive
the wealth of Nam. I abandoned Ahankar
(pride, egotism) and became happy. I heard
the Dhun of Nam in Sunn or Daswan Dwar.
Beyond Maha-sunn, I attained Nam Pad.
In Bhanwarhupha, my Surat heard the Shabd
of Sohang and the melody of Bansri (flute),
and received sustenance from them. In the
company of Nam, I reached the fourth Pad,
and went to Alakh Lok. Adorning myself
with Nam, I arrived at Agam Lok, and then
met the Most Excellent, Eminent and
Illustrious Name RADHASOAMI.
"Making a bonfire of the world, attend
Satsang. Your Ghat or inner self will be
illumined. Man and Mad (pride and arrogance)
will both be vanquished. In Nam Pad, your
Surat will put on a garland of Nam round its
neck.
"Saints give out these teachings. But
the Bekhs do not accept them. They are foolish.
Pandits (scholars) and Yogis (Yoga practitioners)
remained on this end. They could not cross
over to the other side. Gyanis (sophists)
remained lost in their sophistry. Only some
rare Sants have access to the inaccessible
regions. They have penetrated the barrier
at the third Til (third eye).
"Sants describe the stages of Naam as
they see with their eyes. There is no confusion
and ambiguity. They have lifted the curtain,
and revealed Nam. I explain this to you out
of love.
"Seek the extremely munificent Sat
Guru. You will get redemption. You will
then be initiated in the Most Supreme Nam.
Withdraw your spirituality and proceed upwards.
Like a fish, ascend upwards, against the current.
Like a spider, hold fast to the thread, and
return along it.
"Kal feels tired and exhausted, and Maya
feels ashamed because I do not pay attention to
them. My Surat has now attained her Nij
Gharbar (Original Home) and met the Supreme
Being, Radhasoami." (Bachan 10, Shabd 2)
Regarding meditation and devotional practice, Soamiji
Maharaj made the following observations,
"Collect your mind at the third Til,
and take your seat in Sahas-dal-Kanwal.
Turn your inner eyes skyward within, and
behold the flower garden of Jyoti. Anhad
Shabd is audible. Let your inner self be
filled with joy.
Surat has ascended to Shikhar (Sahas-
dal-Kanwal) and is going through Banknal
(the crooked tunnel).
When a black bee gets to a lotus, it
rests there; so the mind, on reaching the Kanwal
or lotus of Trikuti, stops there fully contented.
The Dhun of Rarankar is heard, and the forces
of Kal are vanquished. By the grace of Sant
Sat Guru, all centers within have been opened.
This is the path of the Nij Piv (True
Beloved). No body can find it except by good
fortune. Be a recipient of higher powers, and
play the game of Prem (love). Behold the internal
spectacles, and let the stream of Ami (nectar) flow.
For the sake of Nij Bhaktas (true
devotees), this new religion has been
promulgated. The Vedas are ignorant of this
secret. Jivas are wasting their time in the
ceremonial acts and rites recommended by
the Vedas. This is the Nij Marg (true and
special path to salvation) of Sants, which
can be found in Satsang only.
Perform the Arti (devotional rites) of
Sat Guru and win His pleasure. By the Daya
(grace and mercy) of Radhasoami, attain
Pooran Pad (the ultimate and final goal)."
(Bachan six, Shabd 18)
Before turning to "Sar Bachan: Prose," I want to
briefly discuss Soamiji's use of "Radhasoami" as a name for
the Supreme Being. This has been somewhat of a bone of
contention between various Sant Mat lineages. All of the Beas
lineages - starting with Baba Jaimal Singh and continuing
through Sawan, Jagat, Charan, Kirpal, Darshan, Ajaib, etc.
- consider this name to be simply another "varnatmik" name
(i.e., an outer expression of the inexpressible) for God, and
that the True Reality is in fact nameless (Anami).
The lineages arising from the original ashram in Agra,
on the other hand, place greater importance upon "Radhasoami."
They believe it to be the true, original and hitherto hidden Name
of the Lord which was revealed to the world by Param Sant
Satguru Soamiji Maharaj Shiv Dayal Singh, at the behest of
his finest student, and successor, Rai Saligram, and which
supplanted all other names for the Lord. Soamiji's own
teachings seem to validate the former perspective, for He
states clearly in "Sar Bachan Radhasoami: Prose,"
"Name is of two kinds, Varnatmak
(expressible) and Dhunatmak (inexpressible,
primal sound). The latter is of much
greater value than the former. He who as fear
of Transmigration should seek a Sat Guru
Who is proficient in the practice of Dhunatmak
Nam. He may then be saved from the cycle of
birth. But he who is content with Varnatmak
Nam only, will not escape Transmigration."
(Pg. 100)
As a result, whereas Beas satsangis chant the Five
Holy Names revealed by Nanak and Kabir, Sant Mat students
arising from the Agra lineages using only the word "Radhasoami"
for simran (and many even regard their Beas and Delhi cousins
as being somewhat inferior, calling them "Sat Naamis"). We
will discuss this more next month.
What is vastly more important that semantical
difference between various family trees emanating from Soamiji,
however, is the unity which binds us together as children of
Naam. It is the same unity which has made the Sound Current
teachings the most ancient on this planet, and in every universe
which has ever existed. It is the unbroken chain of spirituality
which provides the remarkable consistency between his teachings
and those of Mirabai, Ravidas, Tulsi Sahib, Nanak, Kabir, Rumi
and so many more. Again returning for a moment to "Sar
Bachan Radhasoami: Poetry (Part I)," Soamiji sings this hymn
to soul, Shabda and God,
"My Surat has become Vairagi. She
has made the Holy Feet of Radhasoami her
support and sustenance. The beloved Surat
went on, following the Holy Name. She
majestically attained the nuptial bed prepared
by Radhasoami . . . Here, there and
everywhere, flowers of Shabd have blossomed.
I am now enamored of Radhasoami. In His
Region, Shabd is resounding incessantly.
Radhasoami has adorned my Surat."
(Bachan four, Shabd 4)
Commenting further on the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga, He stated:
"Open the door. Come to the balcony.
Let not your Surat get dissipated. Let it
enjoy the company of Shabd. Learn the secrets
and mysteries. Be free from death. Make your
life fruitful. Awaken Nirat. Peep into the lane
of Guru. Let your Surat rush forward. Adopt
Saran. Be delighted in the bliss of Nam.
Seek pristine purity. Ward of Yama. Get
rid of the thoughts and reveries of the mind.
Unite with Radhasoami Shabd."
(Bachan 20, Shabd 8)
One of the challenges in writing about a spiritual giant
such as Soamiji Maharaj Shiv Dayal Singh - or any great Shabda
Saint - is that, on the one hand, his message was exceedingly
simple. You could take the above quotation and pretty
much sum up a major portion of the teachings. There are
really only three major tenets of this path after all: God,
Naam and initiation by/guidance of Living Satguru. These
points Soamiji - and all true saints - reiterate over, and over,
and over, and over again. And yet, every word of the masters
glistens with Their radiance, and I have a hard time picking and
choosing which to include.
Following are some selected quotes from "Sar Bachan
Radhasoami: Prose" (Radhasoami Satsang Beas edition).
Regarding the role of the Vedas and other holy books of the
past, Soamiji echoed Kabir when he stated:
"The Vedas and all other revealed
books originated from the region which gave
rise to the three gunas, the five tattwas, and
Maya. The sayings of the Saints come from that
region where there is not even a trace of Maya.
Therefore, they talk only of Nivritti, while others
talk of both, salvation and the world.
In the Vedas, 80,000 couplets are
devoted to rituals alone . . . and only 6,000
couplets deal with real knowledge. The same
is true, more or less, of the Quran and other
revealed books. They are full of historical
material and touch but lightly on methods of
spiritual exercises and God Realization. Even
Lord Krishna told Arjuna to go beyond the
Vedas, which are associated with the three
gunas - that is, to reach the region which is
above that of the Vedas . . . It is said that,
so long as a person is entangled in Karma
and Dharma, he is a slave of the Vedas - that
is, he has to follow the Vedas.
But, once he crosses the region of
Maya and the three gunas, his feet are on top
of the region of the Vedas - that is, he becomes
the maker of the maker of the Vedas, is superior
to them, and his commands are superior to the
commands of the Vedas. The Quran states:
`Perfect Muslim Faqeers are not bound by the
Shariat (law of the Quran). Rather, their
commands supervene the command so Shariat."
(Pg. 70-71)
Soamiji Maharaj laid out the essence of this path quite simply and clearly:
"Three things alone will lead to salvation
in this age of Kali Yuga.
1. Surrender to a perfect Sat Guru.
2. The Society of a Saint.
3. Simran (repetition) and listening to the Holy Name."
(Pg. 82)
And furthermore,
"In the Kali-Yuga, the Saints have
prescribed Shabd as the means of opening
Daswan Dwar (the tenth aperture), which is
hidden in the body. The tenth aperture, in
other religions also, can no longer be opened
by any other means."
(Pg. 86)
On the importance of Shabd in taming the mind, He stated:
"In this age, one cannot succeed in any
other way except by devotion to the Sat Guru
and the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga. All other
forms of worship are like striking at the snake hole.
The snake will not be killed this way. It is likely
to reappear at any time. The proper way is to
catch the snake (mind), and this will be done
only by devotion to the Sat Guru and the
Shabd. By no other means will it be caught."
(Pg. 101)
Regarding the importance of a living Satguru, Soamiji wrote:
"Devotion to the Sat Guru is most
essential. He who loves the Sat Guru will
eventually obtain all that he seeks. One who
seeks only Nam and Sat Lok, but has no love
for the Sat Guru, will get nothing. Love for
the Sat Guru is of first importance. It detaches
us from all bonds."
(Pg. 73)
Regarding Satsang, He stated:
"Satsang is like the Paras (Philosopher's
Stone). Just as iron is changed into gold by
mere contact with it, those who sincerely
follow Satsang are turned into the gold of
immortal life. But a hypocrite with mental
reservations, in spite of Satsang, remains the
same iron as before. Satsang, however, is
Paras all the same."
(Pg. 75)
On the creation of the universes, Soamiji said:
"In the beginning there was dhundhukar
(misty chaos). The Lord Purush was in Sunn-
Samadhi (absorbed within Himself). Till then,
there was no creation. When His Mauj (the
Wave of His Will or Pleasure) surged, Shabd
became manifest and brought into being the
whole of creation; first the Sat Lok and then,
by the Kala (emanation) of Sat Purush, the three
worlds and all the rest of creation were brought
into being."
(Pg. 79)
And regarding the Shabd of ItSelf, Soamiji repeatedly stated
variations on the same theme, to wit:
"It is through the Shabd that the soul
has descended into bondage, and so long as
one does not meet a Sat Guru proficient in the
mysteries of Shabd, he will not be able to return
to his Real Home. He can go up only via
Shabd. There is no other way to escape from
this captivity."
(Pg. 98)
As we can see, all of the above statements are in
harmony with teachings of true saints and mystics. Soamiji
Maharaj was perhaps a bit more emphatic than some due to
the times in which he lived. There is a sense of exhilaration
in his message, a sense of, "Now, it can finally be told!"
He knew that the opportunity presented itself, finally, to
openly express what had been a nearly secret teaching for
centuries, if not millennia. He didn't know how long the
opportunity would last and so He struck while the iron was
hot, publicly expounding the Way of the Sound Current in
all of Its glory.
Through this one man, an aperture was opened in this
universe for an unprecedented influx of Naam. Flowing through
Soamiji Dayal, this River of Sound flooded the planet, and gave
rise to many tributary streams, all paying homage to the One.
This is all part of God's blessing for the child humanity, that
It has chosen to manifest ItSelf in an unprecedented number
of paths and Satgurus. These are truly wondrous times in
which we live. And this writer, for one, is eternally grateful
to Soamiji Dayal - a true saint of circumstance - for being
such a large part in bringing this miracle about.
Baraka Bashad!
"My Surat has caught hold of true and
eternal Shabd; now my whole community has
been redeemed. I have been deeply dyed
with the colour of Naam. I have attained the
form and status of a Hans (swan). I have
discriminated between milk and water. I have
sacrificed my body and mind, and drunk milk.
I have given up water, which is all trouble in
misery. I now daily drink of the Holy Current.
I have trampled Kal. I hold fast to the Holy Feet
of the Guru. My Surat has attained pristine
purity on associating with Name. It took
bath in Mansarovar, and removed all its
dirt. I pick up pearls of Shabd. The Guru
has opened my inner gates and stages. Having
subdued the mind, I picked up the Heavenly
Sounds. Then emanated from within various
Sounds. Guru's Name has redeemed me. I
have given up the whole unreal world."
- Shiv Dayal Singh
* * * * * * *
PUBLISHER'S NOTE
The Sonic Spectrum is published by SPIRITUAL
FREEDOM SATSANG, a nonprofit religious organization.
It is an independent journal for explorers of the Sound and
Light of God, and is designed to facilitate an open exchange
of ideas and perspectives about spiritual growth. The opinions
expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily
represent the beliefs of The Sonic Spectrum or any other
spiritual masters or paths, including SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
SATSANG. We welcome any and all submissions and will
publish them as space allows. All rights reserved.
For furthur information about Michael Turner
and Spiritual Freedom Satsang, please contact:
SPIRITUAL FREEDOM SATSANG
P.O. Box 42374
Tucson, Arizona 85733-2374
E-mail: m.tu...@worldnet.att.net
Usenet Newsgroup: alt.meditation.shabda
Web Site: http://home.att.net/~h.kight/index.htm
Brian M
<m.tu...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> PUBLISHER'S NOTE
> The Sonic Spectrum is published by SPIRITUAL
> FREEDOM SATSANG, a nonprofit religious organization.
> It is an independent journal for explorers of the Sound and
> Light of God, and is designed to facilitate an open exchange
> of ideas and perspectives about spiritual growth. The opinions
> expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily
> represent the beliefs of The Sonic Spectrum or any other
> spiritual masters or paths, including SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
> SATSANG. We welcome any and all submissions and will
> publish them as space allows. All rights reserved.
> For furthur information about Michael Turner
> and Spiritual Freedom Satsang, please contact:
> SPIRITUAL FREEDOM SATSANG
> P.O. Box 42374
> Tucson, Arizona 85733-2374
> E-mail: m.tu...@worldnet.att.net
> Usenet Newsgroup: alt.meditation.shabda
> Web Site: http://home.att.net/~h.kight/index.htm
....................................
And this dear reader is a recruiting letter.
Michael. It is in bad taste for you to spam this group to recruit more
followers to your self-proclaimed path.
Back to alt.meditation.shabda with your spam!
Michael Turner
I am taking your perspective to heart, and furthur finetuning my publisher's
notes so that they won't be taken the wrong way. Again, one of the
cornerstones of the SFS website is the Shabda Links page, which allows
people access to all Light and Sound groups on the internet. It's another
baby step in trying to at least get the various students and orgs to talk to
each other. We are all students of the Light and Sound, after all.
Peace and Unity,
Michael T.
Brian M wrote in message ...
>In article <707tsk$c...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Michael Turner"
><m.tu...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> PUBLISHER'S NOTE
>> The Sonic Spectrum is published by SPIRITUAL
>> FREEDOM SATSANG, a nonprofit religious organization.
>> It is an independent journal for explorers of the Sound and
>> Light of God, and is designed to facilitate an open exchange
>> of ideas and perspectives about spiritual growth. The opinions
>> expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily
>> represent the beliefs of The Sonic Spectrum or any other
>> spiritual masters or paths, including SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
>> SATSANG. We welcome any and all submissions and will
>> publish them as space allows. All rights reserved.
>> For furthur information about Michael Turner
>> and Spiritual Freedom Satsang, please contact:
>> SPIRITUAL FREEDOM SATSANG
>> P.O. Box 42374
>> Tucson, Arizona 85733-2374
>> E-mail: m.tu...@worldnet.att.net
>> Usenet Newsgroup: alt.meditation.shabda
>> Web Site: http://home.att.net/~h.kight/index.htm
Harry Kight
>Please see my above comments regarding "spam."
>
>I am taking your perspective to heart, and furthur finetuning my
publisher's
>notes so that they won't be taken the wrong way. Again, one of the
>cornerstones of the SFS website is the Shabda Links page, which allows
>people access to all Light and Sound groups on the internet. It's another
>baby step in trying to at least get the various students and orgs to talk
to
>each other. We are all students of the Light and Sound, after all.
>
>Peace and Unity,
>
>Michael T.
>Brian M wrote in message ...
>>In article <707tsk$c...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Michael Turner"
>><m.tu...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> PUBLISHER'S NOTE
>>> The Sonic Spectrum is published by SPIRITUAL
>>> FREEDOM SATSANG, a nonprofit religious organization.
>>> It is an independent journal for explorers of the Sound and
>>> Light of God, and is designed to facilitate an open exchange
>>> of ideas and perspectives about spiritual growth. The opinions
>>> expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily
>>> represent the beliefs of The Sonic Spectrum or any other
>>> spiritual masters or paths, including SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
>>> SATSANG. We welcome any and all submissions and will
>>> publish them as space allows. All rights reserved.
>>> For furthur information about Michael Turner
>>> and Spiritual Freedom Satsang, please contact:
>>> SPIRITUAL FREEDOM SATSANG
>>> P.O. Box 42374
>>> Tucson, Arizona 85733-2374
>>> E-mail: m.tu...@worldnet.att.net
>>> Usenet Newsgroup: alt.meditation.shabda
>>> Web Site: http://home.att.net/~h.kight/index.htm
>>....................................
>>
>>And this dear reader is a recruiting letter.
Not. The abovementioned website gives access to all "Light & Sound"
websites, newsgroups and mailing lists currently available. Period. Those
who choose to visit the web site will see that this is true. You are invited
to visit:
http://home.att.net/~h.kight/index.htm
to see the truth. Unlike certain other web pages, SFS remains supportive of
Eckankar(tm).
>>Michael. It is in bad taste for you to spam this group to recruit more
>>followers to your self-proclaimed path.
Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO. No spam. Are you paranoid?
The Path exists. There are MANY Masters who appear to be self-proclaimed,
including Paul Twitchell.
I was the first to proclaim Sri Michael Turner as my Spiritual Master. I
was the first soul to receive Initiation from Him. Anami Lok was opened to
all attending His first conference in Tucson. That experience changed my
life. Witnesses experienced a three-fold "blast" of pure golden energy
centered upon Sri Michael. He paused, and the "blast" engulfed us all.
Audio and video recorders ceased to function, so there is no physical record
of this astounding (to us) "live moment." No participant will ever forget
that "moment." This man, Michael Turner, connected us all to Sat Purush in
an instant.
This man, Michael Turner, can facilitate your experience of Anami Lok, too.
The only barrier is "moha."
---Harry
Please demonstrate factual evidence supporting your claim, Brian.
>>Back to alt.meditation.shabda with your spam!
>>
>
Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
csk
"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO.
In what? The Grateful Dead?
<snip>
>I was the first to proclaim Sri Michael Turner as my Spiritual Master.
I
>was the first soul to receive Initiation from Him. Anami Lok was
opened to
>all attending His first conference in Tucson. That experience changed
my
>life. Witnesses experienced a three-fold "blast" of pure golden energy
>centered upon Sri Michael. He paused, and the "blast" engulfed us all.
>Audio and video recorders ceased to function, so there is no physical
record
>of this astounding (to us) "live moment." No participant will ever
forget
>that "moment." This man, Michael Turner, connected us all to Sat
Purush in
>an instant.
But did he have his spiritual dimensional meter turned on? They don't
rely on electrical power and give accurate readings of these subjective
experiences unlike the gushy reports that are often something quite
different. And you can pick up the meters for free at the Astral
Walmart.
Interesting choices of words to describe the experience. I think
they are probably accurate in describing this individual's feeling
states.
>This man, Michael Turner, can facilitate your experience of Anami Lok,
too.
>The only barrier is "moha."
Hey... look at this another little advertisement. As an Eckist I'm
sensitized to them and can spot them a mile away... <laughter>. So the
only reason a person isn't enlighted by the fraud Turner is that they
are experieincing "moha" within themselves. This is classic fraudulaent
guru horseshit.
Turner and his merry band of unpranksters is perpetuating the same
horseshit. Same as it ever was.
>Please demonstrate factual evidence supporting your claim, Brian.
Mr. Hairy Night is the factual demonstration/evidence of all
statements that Turner is a fraud.
>Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
Pee Wee Herman thinks you're going to get a lot out of your experience
with Turner but it isn't what you think it is.
csk
Brian M
<h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
And you know this because . . . .
I suppose Sat Purush told you this.
Brian
Michael Turner
csk wrote in message <70sqgd$t36$1...@boris.eden.com>...
>
>
>"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
><70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
>>Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO.
>
> In what? The Grateful Dead?
Kent, you keep using my appreciation of the Grateful Dead as some sort of
empirical point to discredit me. Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't get it.
Joseph Campbell liked the Dead, does that make him an idiot too? What, to
you, is wrong with the Grateful Dead? I'm serious - I'd like to know
specifically why you don't like them.
> Mr. Hairy Night is the factual demonstration/evidence of all
>statements that Turner is a fraud.
Ooooooh, aren't you the rhetorical stud. Using such clever and witty
devices of attack like making fun of someone's name - kind of like our pal
Ringo. If I grow up to be a "high initiate" will I be as witty as you?
mt
csk
"Michael Turner" <m.tu...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<70t70q$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>csk wrote in message <70sqgd$t36$1...@boris.eden.com>...
>>"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>><70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>>>Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO.
>> In what? The Grateful Dead?
>Kent, you keep using my appreciation of the Grateful Dead as some sort of
empirical point to discredit me. Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't get it.
Joseph Campbell liked the Dead, does that make him an idiot too? What, to
you, is wrong with the Grateful Dead? I'm serious - I'd like to know
specifically why you don't like them.
It's not the Grateful Dead that I don't like. Turner needs to read more
carefully.
>> Mr. Hairy Night is the factual demonstration/evidence of all
>>statements that Turner is a fraud.
>Ooooooh, aren't you the rhetorical stud. Using such clever and witty
>devices of attack like making fun of someone's name - kind of like our pal
>Ringo. If I grow up to be a "high initiate" will I be as witty as you?
Turner is already a 'sat guru' <laughter> and his reactivity, pontification,
ability to crib, bore and make false claims have been documented in the halls of
a.r.e. for years. I make no claims to spiritual greatness, mastership, or any
initiation level. And anyone can, and frequently they do, make fun of me.
More power to them. Harry's unabashed advertisements for his wannabe guru have
been repeated ad nauseaum.
Before the detractors jump all over this, Harry ain't the only one... but
he'sone of the most of-topic and clutching as far as non directely related to
Eckankar, the supposed topic of this ng.
Turner wants to be a player in the already dubious guru game. It's like he's
showing up at a party that's been over for three days and proclaims he's the
host. Oh well...
csk
Js tuza
This thread is very interesting. You flame Michael like
others flame Eckankar, and on the same newsgroup.
Whether you agree with Michael and his spiritual path is
no reason to be knocking him (IMO). I assume some Souls
are benefiting from his "leadership". I believe if we
want others to understand us as a religion of the Light
and Sound of God, our demonstration should start at
home. Even if Michael knocks Eckankar, should we
return the "favor" and knock him? Where does it all
end? Around and around we go on the wheel of______.
But then that's what this newsgroup IS all about, isn't
it....who can ridicule the "biggest", "baddest" and most
completest! (I know, no such words but it was fun
typing it <g>)
Jackie
http://members.aol.com/hu4god/index.html
------Huuuuuu------
"Soul exists because God loves it."
Harry Kight
>
>
>"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
><70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
>>Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO.
>
> In what? The Grateful Dead?
>
>
>>I was the first to proclaim Sri Michael Turner as my Spiritual Master.
>I
>>was the first soul to receive Initiation from Him. Anami Lok was
>opened to
>>all attending His first conference in Tucson. That experience changed
>my
>>life. Witnesses experienced a three-fold "blast" of pure golden energy
>>centered upon Sri Michael. He paused, and the "blast" engulfed us all.
>>Audio and video recorders ceased to function, so there is no physical
>record
>>of this astounding (to us) "live moment." No participant will ever
>forget
>>that "moment." This man, Michael Turner, connected us all to Sat
>Purush in
>>an instant.
> But did he have his spiritual dimensional meter turned on? They don't
>rely on electrical power and give accurate readings of these subjective
>experiences unlike the gushy reports that are often something quite
>different. And you can pick up the meters for free at the Astral
>Walmart.
As an Eckist, do you discount Harji's ability to uplift His audience?
> Interesting choices of words to describe the experience. I think
>they are probably accurate in describing this individual's feeling
>states.
>
>>This man, Michael Turner, can facilitate your experience of Anami Lok,
>too.
>>The only barrier is "moha."
>
> Hey... look at this another little advertisement. As an Eckist I'm
>sensitized to them and can spot them a mile away... <laughter>.
Your laughter might be what keeps you removed from Sugmad. Bow down and
receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
> So the
>only reason a person isn't enlighted by the fraud Turner is that they
>are experieincing "moha" within themselves. This is classic fraudulaent
>guru horseshit.
The only horseshit being spewed is coming from your own mouth. Bow down and
receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
> Turner and his merry band of unpranksters is perpetuating the same
>horseshit. Same as it ever was.
This unprankster will continue to perpetuate Truth, and no amount of
psuedo-Eck crap will deter me. Eckankar is a living spiritual path, and no
individual "Eckist," such as yourself, can erase Truth. Bow down and
receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji. Your self-centered bullshit
enriches no one.
>>Please demonstrate factual evidence supporting your claim, Brian.
>
> Mr. Hairy Night is the factual demonstration/evidence of all
>statements that Turner is a fraud.
Cheap shots do not erase Truth. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
Listen to Harji.
>>Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
>
> Pee Wee Herman thinks you're going to get a lot out of your experience
>with Turner but it isn't what you think it is.
You abase yourself, needlessly. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
Listen to Harji.
Harry Kight
csk wrote in message <70tcpr$hrs$1...@boris.eden.com>...
>
>
>"Michael Turner" <m.tu...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
><70t70q$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
>
>
>>>"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>><70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
>>>>Hmmmm... Michael has excellent taste, IMHO.
>
>>> In what? The Grateful Dead?
>
>empirical point to discredit me. Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't get it.
>Joseph Campbell liked the Dead, does that make him an idiot too? What, to
>you, is wrong with the Grateful Dead? I'm serious - I'd like to know
>specifically why you don't like them.
>
> It's not the Grateful Dead that I don't like. Turner needs to read more
>carefully.
>
>>>statements that Turner is a fraud.
>
>>devices of attack like making fun of someone's name - kind of like our pal
>>Ringo. If I grow up to be a "high initiate" will I be as witty as you?
>
> Turner is already a 'sat guru' <laughter> and his reactivity,
pontification,
>ability to crib, bore and make false claims have been documented in the
halls of
>a.r.e. for years. I make no claims to spiritual greatness, mastership, or
any
>initiation level. And anyone can, and frequently they do, make fun of me.
>More power to them. Harry's unabashed advertisements for his wannabe guru
have
>been repeated ad nauseaum.
Perhaps, but this is the very first time I have supplied readers with my
specific experience. Readers know Truth when they feel it. The description
of my experience *is* Truth. Your psuedo-Eck spin-doctoring has no effect
upon Truth. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
Harry Kight
Brian M wrote in message ...
><h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>
...Sat Purush *is* Love. Beyond Oceans, beyond Self.
>I suppose Sat Purush told you this.
Obvious Truth needs no telling. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
Listen to Harji.
csk
jst...@aol.com (Js tuza) wrote in message
<19981024223644...@ngol01.aol.com>:
>
>This thread is very interesting. You flame Michael like
>others flame Eckankar, and on the same newsgroup.
>Whether you agree with Michael and his spiritual path is
>no reason to be knocking him (IMO).
Since when did reason have anything to do with this ng?
>I assume some Souls
>are benefiting from his "leadership". I believe if we
>want others to understand us as a religion of the Light
>and Sound of God, our demonstration should start at
>home.
Step into my home sometime and see what I demonstrate.
I've observed Turner for close to four years in his claims to sat guru status.
I make my statements and I stand by them. It does demonstrate what I experience
and see to be true. Take issue with me. It's a free universe. Given some of
the official 'demonstrations' I find these comments ironical.
>Even if Michael knocks Eckankar, should we
>return the "favor" and knock him? Where does it all
>end? Around and around we go on the wheel of______.
Life is... It's like saying we should all stop breathing because it is so
repetitive and tedious. <smile>
>But then that's what this newsgroup IS all about, isn't
>it....who can ridicule the "biggest", "baddest" and most
>completest! (I know, no such words but it was fun
>typing it <g>)
One can only hope that there are momentary breaks where there is some value
and substance to the process. No one is 'forced' to read or respond to
anything. It's simply ascii text on a cathode ray tube, or some form of TFT/LCD
for you laptop users...
Anyone catch Alanis Morrisette <sp> on SNL tonight? "How long will it take,
Baba..." interesting song selection.
csk
csk
"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<70u6dl$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>As an Eckist, do you discount Harji's ability to uplift His audience?
What about the meter at Walmart?
I'm not sure that I see spiritual speakers/leaders as being the real cause of
anyone's 'upliftment.'
Lots of things happen. When we want to fall in love we'll fall in love with
just about anyone, even someone who can be quite destructive.
<snip>
>Your laughter might be what keeps you removed from Sugmad. Bow down and
>receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
Harry can bow down all he wants to.
The old paradigms are dead.
To say someone is 'removed from God' is the height of either arrogance or
stupidity.
While I would say that Turner is a fraud, I'd never say he is 'removed from
God.' That's just plain bad mathematics... <yes, more laughter driving me into
the supposed darkness....>
<snip>
>The only horseshit being spewed is coming from your own mouth. Bow down and
>receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
Now you're starting to sound like John Rogers, Harry.
>This unprankster will continue to perpetuate Truth, and no amount of
>psuedo-Eck crap will deter me. Eckankar is a living spiritual path, and no
>individual "Eckist," such as yourself, can erase Truth. Bow down and
>receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji. Your self-centered bullshit
>enriches no one.
This is such rich loamy 'fertilizer' for the same silly nonsense that keeps
the guru furnaces stoked. The so-called truth isn't subject to perpetuation or
cessation. It simply is what it is.
Turner is a fraudulent wannabe 'guru'. This statement is interpreted
asself-centered bullshit by his first disciple. No rocket science is needed
here.
Rather than my telling Harry to 'bow down' and get right with God, which is
in essense his statement to me, I'd recommend that he simply chill and not worry
about this 'self-centered' voice.
<snip>
> Mr. Hairy Night is the factual demonstration/evidence of all
>>statements that Turner is a fraud.
>Cheap shots do not erase Truth. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
>Listen to Harji.
It's the same formula as the moldy texts that are quoted and spewed over and
over again. I wonder if this is what he says to people he works with when they
don't agree with him. Or his wife/lover/kids/parents.
>>>Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
>>
>> Pee Wee Herman thinks you're going to get a lot out of your experience
>>with Turner but it isn't what you think it is.
>You abase yourself, needlessly. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
>Listen to Harji.
I think you mean 'abuse.' Lighten up Harry. Go forth and regurgitate and
sing your hymns for wannabe sat guru Turner to your heart's content. Breathe
into it and realize that I'm part of the infinite wisdom of God. How could it
be any other way... <respond with the right answer and you'll get a free plastic
Turner to put on your dashboard>
Quack,
csk
Js tuza
>
>
>jst...@aol.com (Js tuza) wrote in message
><19981024223644...@ngol01.aol.com>:
>
>>
>>This thread is very interesting. You flame Michael like
>>others flame Eckankar, and on the same newsgroup.
>>Whether you agree with Michael and his spiritual path is
>>no reason to be knocking him (IMO).
>
> Since when did reason have anything to do with this ng?
oops, sorry I forgot where I was (am).
>
>>I assume some Souls
>>are benefiting from his "leadership". I believe if we
>>want others to understand us as a religion of the Light
>>and Sound of God, our demonstration should start at
>>home.
>
> Step into my home sometime and see what I demonstrate.
An invitation, for everyone?
>
> I've observed Turner for close to four years in his claims to sat guru
>status.
>I make my statements and I stand by them. It does demonstrate what I
>experience
>and see to be true. Take issue with me. It's a free universe. Given some of
>the official 'demonstrations' I find these comments ironical.
So what you are saying, indirectly of course (IMO), is we can expect more hate
mail. Ok, I'll just have to accept it, but I don't accept the fact the a.r.e.
is what Eckankar's all about. (I know you are not saying it is but some keep
implying it.)
>
>>Even if Michael knocks Eckankar, should we
>>return the "favor" and knock him? Where does it all
>>end? Around and around we go on the wheel of______.
>
> Life is... It's like saying we should all stop breathing because it is so
>repetitive and tedious. <smile>
Hey, I got a smile. Thanks <g>
>>But then that's what this newsgroup IS all about, isn't
>>it....who can ridicule the "biggest", "baddest" and most
>>completest! (I know, no such words but it was fun
>>typing it <g>)
>
> One can only hope that there are momentary breaks where there is some value
>and substance to the process. No one is 'forced' to read or respond to
>anything. It's simply ascii text on a cathode ray tube, or some form of
>TFT/LCD
>for you laptop users...
That's the first bit of truth I've read here in a long time!
>
> Anyone catch Alanis Morrisette <sp> on SNL tonight? "How long will it
>take,
>Baba..." interesting song selection.
Na, I was busy listening to Harold's talk. 1hr. 28mins... "God is Love"
>
>csk
>
jsb
csk
"Harry Kight" <h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<70u72d$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>:
>Perhaps, but this is the very first time I have supplied readers with my
>specific experience. Readers know Truth when they feel it. The description
>of my experience *is* Truth. Your psuedo-Eck spin-doctoring has no effect
>upon Truth. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God. Listen to Harji.
There is no disputing Harry's experience. It is what it is . It is Harry's
truth.
Throwing around the word truth with an upper case "T" doesn't mean anything.
My point, not spin-doctoring and nothing to do with my membership in
Eckankar, is that I see Turner as a misleading fraud via his claim to initiatory
mastership (a sat guru appointed by god). It's really not that big of a deal.
I'm compelled by my experience to express myself, from time to time, on this
topic. I've been doing it for years (with long breaks...).
I don't post to alt.religion.shabda (Turner's psuedo-sant mat <smile> ng), I
don't question Harry's or even Turner's capacity to experience *anything*. What
that *anything* means is up for grabs... What it means for them is personal for
them, what it means to me or anyone else is up to 'us.'
The spiritual 'grand-standing' (going on about *T*ruth... please) I see Turner
and Harry do, occasionally, is pathetic and when I have the misfortune to run
across it I often say something about it. It is so easy to throw around some
new-age or Sant Mat language and sound like you know something 'special' when
really it's just guru-talk and sant mat scriptural-speak.
Harry sounds put upon in recent posts... I don't know if there is another
person who is expressing similar sentiments to mine.
There are so many interesting topics to contemplate, discuss, toss around
that this 'bow down and listen to your guru' crap simply has a suppressive ring
to it.
I accept Harry and Turner as part of life. Fun house mirrors. Hey, I'll
have to give myself the plastic Turner pin doll for the dashboard...
csk
Ken S
csk <sp...@gatezone.com> wrote ...
:
:
: My point, not spin-doctoring and nothing to do with my membership in
: Eckankar, is that I see Turner as a misleading fraud via his claim to
initiatory
: mastership (a sat guru appointed by god). It's really not that big of a
deal.
: I'm compelled by my experience to express myself, from time to time, on
this
: topic. I've been doing it for years (with long breaks...).
How are your negative comments about Turner different in nature from what
others say about Eckankar?
I have little affinity for detractors because they attempt to belittle and
degrade the personal experiences and viewpoints of others. What's the point?
Do your statements help others or just help your own self image?
A tree needs occasional pruning, sure, but watch what you're doing with that
ax.
Ken
csk
jst...@aol.comJackie (Js tuza) wrote in message
<19981025024232...@ngol07.aol.com>:
>Na, I was busy listening to Harold's talk. 1hr. 28mins... "God is Love"
Long talk. What did he say. Seems to me I remember this message from the New
Testament.
csk
csk
"Ken S" <kens...@erols.com> wrote in message
<01be0025$f0b5f880$LocalHost@default>:
>How are your negative comments about Turner different in nature from what
>others say about Eckankar?
This is not my agenda, Ken. If someone else is interested in the
similarities and and contrasts that's fine by me. And yes, I am a Turner
detractor if that is what you're getting at. I'm not defending detractors nor
am I defending Eckankar.
>I have little affinity for detractors because they attempt to belittle and
>degrade the personal experiences and viewpoints of others. What's the point?
>Do your statements help others or just help your own self image?
I'm not seeking your affinity, but to be clear I am also not degrading Turner
or Harry's experiences (actually I don't think the Eckankar detractors really
degrade my experiences either) questioning the meaning of someone's publicly
expressed experience and interpretations of the experience is not degrading. It
might be uncomfortable. My style is sure to displease some folks. It may even
cause a lack of affinity for some (blink).
As far as my self-image... <laughter> I wouldn't step foot in this ng if I
was so concerned about my self-image. Bottom line is that my statements do
nothing for my self image.
I've stated my point numerous times. We all have the right to our opinions.
My perspective on Turner and his merry band is hardly earth-shattering, nor
should it cause anyone to loose sleep.
>A tree needs occasional pruning, sure, but watch what you're doing with that
>ax.
Understood, Ken. Your's and other people's reminders are always welcome. Ad
I'm afriad I still feel some affinity with you...<smile>.
csk
Ken S
csk <sp...@gatezone.com> wrote ...
:
:
"Ken S" <kens...@erols.com> wrote...
: >How are your negative comments about Turner different in nature from what
: >others say about Eckankar?
:
: This is not my agenda, Ken. If someone else is interested in the
: similarities and and contrasts that's fine by me. And yes, I am a Turner
: detractor if that is what you're getting at. I'm not defending detractors nor
: am I defending Eckankar.
Your answer is a nonsequitor <sp?>, you didn't address my question. I'm not
asking about your agenda, I'm looking at your effects ... and how are others
affected. What's the difference between Joe's comments about Eckankar and
yours about Turner? Maybe there's a huge difference. Enlighten me <g>.
What I don't care for the attitude often expressed as "well obviously you're
full of sh*t, anyone with half a brain can see that." That's not "questioning
the meaning" of someone's experience or interpretation, that's an attempt to
negate their viewpoint. It almost seems to be an attempt to negate their
perspective as Soul.
As I see it today, we each enable our own viewpoints. We each create our own
worlds but have *no* franchise to say with any degree of certainty that
another individual's chosen path is fraudulent. Whenever someone does this it
seems to call into question their own integrity.
Ken
Joe
>
>
>csk <sp...@gatezone.com> wrote ...
>:
>:
>"Ken S" <kens...@erols.com> wrote...
>: >How are your negative comments about Turner different in nature from what
>: >others say about Eckankar?
>:
>: This is not my agenda, Ken. If someone else is interested in the
>: similarities and and contrasts that's fine by me. And yes, I am a Turner
>: detractor if that is what you're getting at. I'm not defending detractors nor
>: am I defending Eckankar.
>
>Your answer is a nonsequitor <sp?>, you didn't address my question. I'm not
>asking about your agenda, I'm looking at your effects ... and how are others
>affected. What's the difference between Joe's comments about Eckankar and
>yours about Turner? Maybe there's a huge difference. Enlighten me <g>.
Maybe we're all deluded! Hah? Ya ever think of that Kenster?? Hah???
Repeat that Maha Mantra all night tonight and come the morn Reality will shine
like the full moon up the clear lake . . .
>
>What I don't care for the attitude often expressed as "well obviously you're
>full of sh*t, anyone with half a brain can see that." That's not "questioning
>the meaning" of someone's experience or interpretation, that's an attempt to
>negate their viewpoint. It almost seems to be an attempt to negate their
>perspective as Soul.
On the other hand, maybe it's actually *strengthening* a clearer perception by
clearing away the dross of ego-perceptions! But I agree, patting people on the
head is sometimes nice too!
>
>As I see it today, we each enable our own viewpoints. We each create our own
>worlds but have *no* franchise to say with any degree of certainty that
>another individual's chosen path is fraudulent. Whenever someone does this it
>seems to call into question their own integrity.
Maybe . . .
But if you ever decide to branch out and hang up a shingle as Kenster, the Maha
Avatar, expect to hear a wee bit of challenges to that proclamation!
David and Victoria
Michael Turner wrote in message <70j64q$o...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>Please see my above comments regarding "spam."
>
>I am taking your perspective to heart, and furthur finetuning my
publisher's
>notes so that they won't be taken the wrong way. Again, one of the
>cornerstones of the SFS website is the Shabda Links page, which allows
>people access to all Light and Sound groups on the internet. It's another
>baby step in trying to at least get the various students and orgs to talk
to
>each other. We are all students of the Light and Sound, after all.
>
>Peace and Unity,
>
>Michael T.
I whole heartedly agree we are all students of the Light and Sound. Good
posting.
D&V
Ken S
Joe wrote ...
:
: Maybe we're all deluded! Hah? Ya ever think of that Kenster?? Hah???
Consider it? I'm convinced! We ARE all deluded (just a little bit anyhow).
: Repeat that Maha Mantra all night tonight and come the morn Reality will shine
: like the full moon up the clear lake . . .
No full mooning me, please.
: >What I don't care for the attitude often expressed as "well obviously you're
: >full of sh*t, anyone with half a brain can see that." That's not "questioning
: >the meaning" of someone's experience or interpretation, that's an attempt to
: >negate their viewpoint. It almost seems to be an attempt to negate their
: >perspective as Soul.
:
: On the other hand, maybe it's actually *strengthening* a clearer perception by
: clearing away the dross of ego-perceptions! But I agree, patting people on the
: head is sometimes nice too!
Isn't there a middle ground somewhere between gratuitous head patting and
labeling someone a fraud? Where does confrontation get you? There's no way
to prove or disprove a thing like guruhood anyway. So beyond making it clear
that so-and-so guru is not your cup of tea, what's the point?
Ken
Brian M
<h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Brian M wrote in message ...
> >In article <70sl1t$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Harry Kight"
> ><h.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Sat Purush loves you, Brian.
> >
> >And you know this because . . . .
>
>
> ...Sat Purush *is* Love. Beyond Oceans, beyond Self.
>
> >I suppose Sat Purush told you this.
>
>
> Obvious Truth needs no telling. Bow down and receive the Wisdom of God.
> Listen to Harji.
I prefer to get my wisdom standing up.
God does not want me on bended knee.
Is this what your Sat Guru makes you do?
You are sounding a bit dogmatic Harry.
You need not be concerned for my spiritual well being.
Nor have I invited you to offer me spiritual advice youngsterburger.
A little bit of knowledge is often an invitation to vanity. I don't
pretend to be as wise as you. I'll leave you you to your defense of God
(incidentally , no defense is needed and go back to singing the names of
God
Brian
Joe
>Isn't there a middle ground somewhere between gratuitous head patting and
>labeling someone a fraud? Where does confrontation get you? There's no way
>to prove or disprove a thing like guruhood anyway.
What? Sure there is!
If we as a society (gee, I sound like a Berkeley liberal there!) hold school
teachers to a certain standard of knowledge, ability, schooling and general
conduct, why hold Gurus to a different standard -- or rather, a non-standard?
Claiming to be a Guru and putting up a shingle is so very, very easy. It's also
very easy to impress a certain segment of the population. All that's needed is
a basic knowledge of human psychology, some marketing skills, and a considerable
amount of chutzpah.
Does everyone have the freedom to follow whom they want? Of course.
But that's not the issue here. Free speech is. Free speech can counter the
claims of false gurus -- and believe me, there is such a thing.
Consider Thakar Singh and John-Roger, both of them paragons of deception and
criminal behavior. Newbies to their groups aren't greeted with information
about their nefarious activities, but instead are sold on lovely metaphors of
sweetness and light.
Some people feel that they have a responsiblity to put the word out about these
and other false gurus. And why not? There's such a thing as too much tolerance
-- tolerance, like everything else in this world, isn't an absolute. There are
times when it's appropriate to speak out.
As far as Michael Turner or anyone else up for discussion here on A.R.E., let
the chips fall where they may. If someone says something factually wrong, it
can be corrected by the party involved, or by others. This kind of
communication is a *good* thing, IMO. Perhaps it clears away some of the
misconceptions others may have, but have been too shy to voice.
This newsgroup is a forum of religous freedom, despite what some others may say
to the contrary. It's not a church or a temple, or a holy book or authorized
scripture -- then again, maybe it is! It all depends on how you look at what's
here, the information provided, as well as the emotional reactions displayed.
Certainly the "scripture" of any religion is an argument for and against many
things, just as much as A.R.E. is!
So beyond making it clear
>that so-and-so guru is not your cup of tea, what's the point?
See above.
csk
>In article <01be0051$8c277660$LocalHost@default>, "Ken says...
<snip>
>>What I don't care for the attitude often expressed as "well obviously you're
>>full of sh*t, anyone with half a brain can see that." That's not "questioning
>>the meaning" of someone's experience or interpretation, that's an attempt to
>>negate their viewpoint. It almost seems to be an attempt to negate their
>>perspective as Soul.
Nope. I don't think Turner or Harry are full of shit. (weird ideas
maybe...<g>) I simply don't think Turner is within a gazillion light years of
what has been traditionally thought of as an initiating sat guru. I find his
posts here in a.r.e. to be manipulative, unoriginal, and absurd. He himself is
not full of shit... or if he is I don't know about it.
No one can negate Harry-Turner personal perspectives. The views they
express in this very public forum can be questioned, satirized, teased, and
reinterpreted without it negating their own experience. Experience isn't so
fragile and if it is then perhaps a.r.e. isn't the place to publicize it to
potentially millions of readers. This is public domain in most senses of the
word.
>On the other hand, maybe it's actually *strengthening* a clearer perception by
>clearing away the dross of ego-perceptions! But I agree, patting people on the
>head is sometimes nice too!
Pat, pat... yes I agree...
>>As I see it today, we each enable our own viewpoints. We each create our own
>>worlds but have *no* franchise to say with any degree of certainty that
>>another individual's chosen path is fraudulent. Whenever someone does this it
>>seems to call into question their own integrity.
What you are saying is that a 'whistle-blower's' integrity is inherently
called into question. The world has a fine tradition of people calling 'foul'
and there is nothing in question about their integrity.
Also there is a real, yet perhaps difficult to understand difference between
saying that Turner's and Harry's "path is fraudulent" and saying that I think
Turner's claim to be an initiating sat guru in the sant mat lineage (or any
other) is fradulent. Their personal "paths," by definition, can't be
fraudelent. It is his and he believes it.
>But if you ever decide to branch out and hang up a shingle as Kenster, the Maha
>Avatar, expect to hear a wee bit of challenges to that proclamation!
Not to worry. <smile> And anyone who does needs to be questioned.
Including those in our own religion. It is a mutual responsibility to do so.
Inwardly as well as outwardly. The 'role' of guru is just as suspect as the
role of 'seeker.'
csk
Ken S
This isn't a free speech issue. It's a kindness issue. Of course we are free
to share our opinions here . . . that's what this place is all about. But if
we can take a moment to look at the effects our words have on others, maybe we
can uplift and give assistance to each other.
Kindness doesn't require blandness or for one to become wishy-washy and vapid.
It just takes a little respect for your fellow being.
Ken
Js tuza
In article <01be014d$4711a1c0$LocalHost@default>, "Ken S" <kens...@erols.com>
writes:
and...
when in doubt, ask yourself, "is it true? is it necessary? is it kind?
So does anyone know the difference between sympathy vs compassion?
Compassion: being able to listen to someone and "know" where they
are coming from because you walked that path too; compassion open
your heart.
Sympathy: feeling sorry for someone.
Anyone else?
Jackie
http://members.aol.com/hu4god/index.html
------Huuuuuu------
"Soul exists because God loves it."
"God is Love"
Galuuk
Isn't it "coincidental" how appropriate Harold's talks are?
His message was so POWERFUL Saturday evening that, as I looked at him, I felt a
strong urge to just slip into a state between conciousness and the dream state.
And at the same time having a incredibly strong message that the underlying
message was so strong that it would take me weeks and months to accept it into
conciousness fully.
It was a truly incredible event. When I spoke to others about it, the same
impression was percieved by them.
I have great compassion for those who do not have that "inner ability" and
therefore could not or would not recieve one of the most significant spiritual
messages in the history of mankind.
Joey
csk
"Ken S" <kens...@erols.com> wrote in message
<01be014d$4711a1c0$LocalHost@default>:
>This isn't a free speech issue. It's a kindness issue. Of course we are free
>to share our opinions here . . . that's what this place is all about. But if
>we can take a moment to look at the effects our words have on others, maybe we
>can uplift and give assistance to each other.
Sounds good to me.
Kindness is always a nice thing to give and receive.
There *are* situations in which it is not a priority or even a consideration.
Sometimes upliftment and assistance to other's actually requires a bit of
unkindness. I'll bet the prisons and sentenced individuals in the world would
attest to the 'unkindness' that has been served up to them by the court systems.
Kindness needs to be associated with some other values to make much sense.
>Kindness doesn't require blandness or for one to become wishy-washy and vapid.
> It just takes a little respect for your fellow being.
At times the most respectful thing you can do is make yourself clear and drop
the pretenses. If time and other conditions permit, being nice then that's
great.
csk
Js tuza
In article <WzHr0fl0dTxQMTBc.v...@ng117.aol.com>, gal...@aol.com
(Galuuk) writes:
>
>What side of your back you you part your hair on?
>
>
>Ylutz elej tc fi
>ree fuyjr xeetpef ififel uf?
>
>Cehublld xruojc kne sgzql uioh dlp
>obe wtrsmj kwreujk krah
>eal jubujw opeb xxtecs dtice
>sssiy elefmbh wirc zsbey pe.
>
>Osqf sa ihe pe lx zeyoi
>qdnl lhh keot zdei rkm yee?
>
>Pklih jbiyj gaeo osy!
>
>Xtiaes iosf eqevs fkodf
>cr eh rsp nj eolm.
>
>Atn fasxu iw uocieet ui ll
>dbic vbux el lzf xgtk doprf
>eew aiyf pef ppft leek vw.
>
>Zaio etf mde yrbl ebrsa
>lftremz qlon aeuep stsks.
>
>Tndx ibkolg eepxcu tltikr lyvmp ke
>cdba iiai dwl iolspsd tuzm kiarn!
>
>Cztlidr alrhe kkfkqle ftpmb uedlee jwmi
>aolt yd io lyf
>lad jsbxiq uwxbu tkl spv xwaaf
>xebe fnep bbedje ek
>ffv ie yyge llhs
>kmyd capt opl tlr zi
>fuul xoi in bsmy uq.
>
Joey,
You lost me on this one! Were your fingers on the
wrong keys when you typed this?
Js tuza
In article <yU7XdmkAL0UHltZ....@ngol08.aol.com>,
jst...@aol.comHU4God (Js tuza) writes:
>
>What side of your back you you part your hair on?
>
>
>Mge xtrugy lqp dqyq jyshns od
>heyyz reem rcke tz.
>
>Kpre oea siz qesdl.
>
>Qol id wl uen em tmi?
>
>Kleeuu qrore qetj dntehl luhxf?
>
>Huaq wjk kf lf
>al xy ee kp lpq drkh
>tugo akye ee tin juilj
>szp dcejnmk mol gdwo revbdqe rne
>cepsos bs av hfaed
>ldrmp ward pfeeu clyk?
>
>Ejihd eeil acpf divce
>ouusukd liay okdyc oeemage yfwinit nei
>zyef tdlvup debxpmv wto dsy
>jl me mabv ax!
>
>Belkx md tzpr pwfaa
>defdjd apbu slhfry pb?
>
>Mmkrl idbl iexs uyrm
>rks jca amy epi bl
>elnf oull vttw llye kcwal
>wnfe ddnl pz psc abio uhfa
>rcd ge ei pyii kee
>hlstps rwb jed ffe fdeg yfz
>dlu kbkw hmaf mw my brzt?
>
>Qipl fkzg ic ieeol ltze
>ffye ujfp lesg riol blehy.
>
>Qbpnr tdmei sba egae lnei!
>
>Ztve bam jove npi
>kxser qmey nkoee mwrdiz ijd
>om uop ej akp lo wx
>ero mp jvdnm ex
>jhbz yif ubyeyi elekd ktd rl
>uor tiinu oie ajki.
>
>Segef jbdixo dplfzdd oa
>sz rlk kqks eyr ei
>vse njeu cej zquly
>nlcx ipua uy tciv?
>
>Jajt lbtd kbmf lgm?
>
>Puov bml gfj ycsy!
>
>Xoqnf jif rjta pksg usso
>opqgi safto ymek bdfnl
>ffiy jj pmrdj bgvkk taeze xc
>mcios vbleuz stfy oupq el
>ley lsx yxktt if
>qcufrid ebueq qhe ydsp pged!
>
>Iia lbtr ui rvl rbv hpomm
>llei uegnim lpqbma nlltrg llelxlp ndy.
>
This is wierd too. I didn't write this even though it
says I did. Anyone know what's going on? Or is
this Spirit showing compassion for someone who
just got off the mid and who's eyes are crossed.
Nite all.
Maria & Dave
it is human business,
it is not a luxury,
it is essential for our own peace & mental stability,
it is essential for human survival."
Dalai Lama
Tibetan Portrait
Rizzoli Intl. Publications, Inc. 1996
Harold delineated the difference between
sympathy and compassion, in his opinion,
at this years ECKANKAR World Wide
Seminar in Minnesota, in an interesting way.
Sympathy: Feeling sorry for someone who is
below you. Included in this is the
aspect of being overly emotional.
Compassion: "I've walked in your shoes but I
won't tell you about the pebbles
I've experienced, but I will listen."
"Put an arm around them, say you
love them, & be still."
"When you get beat up by life, you learn compassion
like a well-worn ECKist."
Sri Harold Klemp
10/24/98
Minneapolis, Minnesota
For more info on Eckankar:
http://www.eckankar.org