Master Key System

[Etznab]

See biography section here.

http://www.esmhome.org/library/TheMasterKeySystem.pdf

Quoting excerpts:

40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences.

41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.

42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.

43. Remember that it is in the application alone that the value consists, and that a practical understanding of this law will substitute abundance for poverty, wisdom for ignorance, harmony for discord and freedom for tyranny, and certainly there can be no greater blessing than these from a material and social standpoint.

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm

Compare with Rebazar Tarzs in - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell - Chapter titled: The Experience of Spiritual Wealth, the last five paragraphs.

***

Ref# 41391720-9294-Dialogues With The Master vs. The Master Key (1912) Charles Haanel

[Etznab]

Evidentally there is more. Go to the beginning of that chapter in Dialogues With The Master, about the 6th paragraph that reads: "Remember this - 'Much gathers more' is true on every plane of existence; and that 'loss leads to greater loss' is equally true. [... .]

Compare with:

PART ONE

1. That much gathers more is true on every plane of existence and that loss leads to greater loss is equally true.

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_4.htm

***

I'm not going to take the trouble to illustrate every correspondences between the two texts, but those with the book DWTM can open it up and compare with that section from The Master Key link. I'll just say this, after I got to # 20 in The Master Key section - and found the same basic material in DWTM I said to myself: "Well it's not the first I've seen this kind of thing.

[Etznab]

It's more like the whole chapter. That's how similar. One can use two links and follow along in The Experience of Spiritual Wealth chapter from DWTM.

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_4.htm

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm

What is that? About 40 paragraphs or so? Where is a piggy bank large enough for the 2 percent plus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwSaJw4XUw

[Etznab]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:20:50 PM UTC-6, Santim Vah wrote:
> RE

>
> "Well it's not the first I've seen this kind of thing."
>
>
>

> And it won't be the last.

Found another chapter from Dialogues With The Master (1970), by Paul Twitchell, similar to "The Master Key System", by Charles Haanel (1919). It's the DWTM chapter called THE DESIRE OF SOUL - from about p. 139-142 (9th Printing-1987 version).

In The Master Key System see:

Part 15 - numbers 9., 10, 11.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks18.htm

Part 9 - number 16.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks12.htm

Part 22 - number 26.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks25.htm

Part 12 - numbers 18., 22.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks15.htm

Introduction I

"Or, on the other hand, one can, by stolid inaction, allow the delicate brain matter to harden and ossify until his whole life is barren and fruitless."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks02.htm

Part 12 - numbers 19., 20., 21

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks15.htm

Part 15 - numbers 16., 17., 18., 20

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/mks/mks18.htm

***

In DWTM book, go to the chapter called THE DESIRE OF SOUL, and begin reading at the eighth paragraph. Examples from "The Master Key System" I illustrated were listed in the order (of similarity) where they appeared in DWTM.

Happy reading :)

***

Ref# - 41391720-9294-DWTM (1970) vs. The Master Key System, Charles Haanel (1919)

[Etznab]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:06:51 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

For those who argue for less than 3% I wonder how many of them have looked? For instance, I just looked at Dialogues With The Master chapter: THE HEART CENTER.

Look at paragraph four in DWTM that begins "Each function of life ... ."

Now go here and look for the same words.

http://www.ask-gratitude.com/part-three.html

Notice how The Master Key System begins to quote Troward, concerning the cerebro-spinal system. In Paul Twitchell's version, however, it's all the same person. Rebazar Tarzs!

(I've seen this type of thing before. Where two, or more people in an author's book - The Path Of The Masters, by Julian Johnson, for example - in Paul Twitchell's version become Rebazar Tarzs!)

OK. Now I just found this and the time it took me to find it amounted to less than a minute. All I did was type "Each function of life and each action" into a Google search box and click enter. Try it and notice how Charles Haanel comes up, with a link to the text where it can be found. It's like pulling a string attached to a whole ball of YARN. Pun intended.

My problem is not the less than 3%. If that were the case life would be easy. As it is now, it's going to take me the better part of a day to type out that chapter for DWTM (there is no online source and I don't have a scanner) and line it up side by side with the corresponding text from Haanel. This is part of the problem then. Finding this stuff is one thing, illustrating it is quite another.

***

Ref# 41391720-9294-DWTM (THE HEART CENTER) vs. Charles Haanel (The Master Key System)

[Jon Thorpe]

on the other hand, what is it that you are proving by the opposite of those claims???? that 2 or 3% is inaccurate, okay, but if that were all, you'd have stopped long ago, so what is the real motivation here, im curious...

[Etznab]

Learning about where the text came from. What was the source.

[Etznab]

Here is a brief sample excerpt.

[C.H.] = Charles Haanel, 1912

[R.T.] = Rebazar Tarzs, 1956?, 1970

***

[C.H.]

24. All agree that there is but one Principle or Consciousness pervading the entire Universe, occupying all space, and being essentially the same in kind at every point of its presence. It is all powerful, all wisdom and always present. All thoughts and things are within Itself. It is all in all.

- Charles Haanel, "The Master Key System", 1912

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm

[R.T.]

"You agree that there is but one power pervading the entire space of the cosmic worlds, and being essentially the same in kind at every point of its presence. It is all-powerful, all-wise and all-present. All thoughts and all things are within this power. It is All in All!

- Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, 1970, pp. 125-126

[C.H.]

25. There is but one consciousness in the universe able to think; and when it thinks, its thoughts become objective things to it. As this Consciousness is omnipresent, it must be present within every individual; each individual must be a manifestation of that Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Consciousness.

[R.T.]

"This is what ECKANKAR calls the ECK power, or Sound Current, and what is known to the Western world as God. (p. 126)    

"God is the only power in the cosmic worlds. IT is able to think, and when IT thinks ITS thoughts become objective things to IT. As this power is Omnipresent, IT must be present in every individual, and each individual is the manifestation of this Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent power.

[C.H.] 26. As there is only one Consciousness in the Universe that is able to think it necessarily follows that your consciousness is identical with the Universal Consciousness, or, in other words, all mind is one mind. There is no dodging this conclusion.

[R.T.]

"As there is only one power in the universe that is able to think, it necessarily follows that your consciousness is identical with this power, or, in other words, man is that power ITSELF. This is saying that 'I am God and God is I'. This is what you realize upon reaching the Fifth Plane.

***

OK. That was a small excerpt. However, the greater part of that chapter from DWTM, by Paul Twitchell, reads in places both similar and exact ... and it flows in similar order to what Haanel basically created when Paul Twitchell was probably no more than 3 years old! And it's not only that. There are other chapters in DWTM with a similar scheme. There are chapters in other books by Paul Twitchell too. Such as The Key to Eckankar and The Far Country; both of which feature Rebazar Tarzs.

So, what I am interested in is the history and evolution of those ideas and texts. It is on account of the nature of the subjects. Subjects that speak about God, about the Spirit of God, about Cosmology, about Physics and things Supernatural in nature, etc.

[Alex Trebell]

On 11/29/2012 9:35 PM, Santim Vah wrote:
>
> The reactionary nature of those that can't handle it,k cant see it for what it is, because they already consider themselves know it alls ... is self-serving, completely negative, arrogantly controlling of others, and consistently leads genuine seekers away from Truth and not to IT whilst causing decades of unnecessary fear, as well as abuse and harm to others.

Whoa, mirror dude! That's a mirror you're looking in!

[Jon Thorpe]

excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~!

[Etznab]

It looks possible in the past people had a habit of using pseudo characters for transmitting of various teachings. Those from the East and Tibet seem to be the most popular places of origin for such characters.

It was another time and I don't think one can guage how prevalent the practice might have been without looking back at the history of that time. It most likely goes back father than beginning of the 20th century.

From what little I've noticed so far there was a change in the ways that many people looked at religion. The different "Spiritual Awakenings" in the U.S.A., for example. There was also a time when people were fascinated with the East and where so many individuals, or groups of individuals either went, or claimed to have traveled to the East.

So I think this is something worth looking into. It might be educational to get a feel for how many individuals claimed knowledge and wisdom came from eastern adepts when it may have come from another source, like a book, a speech, or what was the buzz within and around certain circles during that time period in history. This could account for a number of similarities in idea and belief about how the world was created, the different ages of man, etc.

It is probable too, I think, that people drew from existing knowledge, stories and myths and subsequently fashioned their own. "Radha Soami", for instance. It shares a lot of similarities to other movements, but at the same time is not exactly the same. And there are sant Mat groups, as well as other groups, who assign different orders to the sounds one can hear of various planes. Then there are the Kabir panths and the Sikh groups which are as different from one another as are the denominations within Christianity.

My real interest would be to find any real living masters as part of a long lineage, instead of people taking from existing stories and texts and later making up their own lineage. I have seen this in various religions, this idea of pseudo lineage, where some folks were real and others most likely not.

[Kinpa]

interesting it is, indeed, however, i offer the idea that that idea may have been found elsewhere than this particular author's work as copied by PT, and while not denying that, the idea itself seems familiar to me in a general sense, one not beginning with Eckankar or Paul Twitchell, just my opinion however on that

[Kinpa]

the thing is however, that the writings of PT give absolutely NO indication of what the case might actually be, and these Masters that dont seem to have any historical basis are still very much alive and doing things, which imo leaves ALL of those who speak against the concept rather out in the cold, not throwing you into either category of course, just making a note, the things that PT put into his books were truth, and those truths are very much working today, as are the Masters

[Etznab]

Believe it or not, the following words do exist on this thread (I'm going to put a little emphasis this time):

"Learning about WHERE THE TEXT CAME FROM. What was the source."

[Etznab]

There was trivia on this a.r.e. thread that I recently added to.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/wUTJr83sZUI

It looked like a possible early influence upon the "New Thought" movement was Mesmerism, or teachings that tapped the powers of the subconscious. What do you think?

[Etznab]

This is a long page, but has some interesting history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesmerism#Mesmerism

[Etznab]

Not sure I understood "NO indication of what the case might actually be". What does that pertain to?

"The Tibetan was waiting when I got home tonight. He left the room while I was briefly undressed and showered and got ready for his dictation. Then he came back and started talking while he paced the floor. [... ."

- Dialogues With The Master, THE EXPERIENCE OF SPIRITUAL WEALTH, p. 123

"Rebazar Tarzs came tonight about 10:30 p.m. and sat on the side of my bed talking while emphasizing each point with his square hands. [... .]"

- Dialogues With The Master, THE HEART CENTER, p. 129

"Rebazar Tarzs came tonight and stayed for a longer time than ever. He sat silently for a long time. After a while he started talking. [... .]"

- Dialogues With The Master, THE DESIRE OF SOUL, p. 139

What does "NO indication of what the case might be" pertain to?

[Etznab]

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 8:15:58 PM UTC-6, Santim Vah wrote:
> >
>
> > > the thing is however, that the writings of PT give absolutely NO indication of what the case might actually be, and these Masters that dont seem to have any historical basis are still very much alive and doing things, which imo leaves ALL of those who speak against the concept rather out in the cold, not throwing you into either category of course, just making a note, the things that PT put into his books were truth, and those truths are very much working today, as are the Masters
>
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> > Not sure I understood "NO indication of what the case might actually be". What does that pertain to?
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> > "The Tibetan was waiting when I got home tonight. He left the room while I was briefly undressed and showered and got ready for his dictation. Then he came back and started talking while he paced the floor. [... ."
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> > - Dialogues With The Master, THE EXPERIENCE OF SPIRITUAL WEALTH, p. 123
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> > "Rebazar Tarzs came tonight about 10:30 p.m. and sat on the side of my bed talking while emphasizing each point with his square hands. [... .]"
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> > - Dialogues With The Master, THE HEART CENTER, p. 129
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> > "Rebazar Tarzs came tonight and stayed for a longer time than ever. He sat silently for a long time. After a while he started talking. [... .]"
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> > - Dialogues With The Master, THE DESIRE OF SOUL, p. 139
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> > What does "NO indication of what the case might be" pertain to?
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> I am a little confused too.
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> RE :: "the things that PT put into his books were truth, and those truths are very much working today, as are the Masters "
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>
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> Especially when the writings instead show that the things that PT put into his books about say Rebazar Tarzs and about a whole lot of other things were actually not true, or at best occluded and unclear and confusing or only hinted at obscurely.
>
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> Now if instead kinpa meant soemthing like ... PT put "some universal spiritual truths" into his books and they were "truth", and often *pointed to other spiritual truths etc* and those universal spiritual truths are very much working today, as are the Masters ... then to me that's another, entirely different, kettle of fish altogether.
>
>
>
> and another entirely different subject matter than what you are posting info about Eztnab. imho. I could be wrong, and often am. :-)

I can't be certain Rebazar Tarzs existed in Paul Twitchell's early writings such as Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's Fang and Letters to Gail. If, in deed, the manuscripts for DWTM and TTF were written in the 1950's I am not certain what the text amounted to as I've not witnessed those manuscripts. All I have seen are the book versions that came out post 1964.

When looking at the first book of LTG and quotes attributed to Rebazar Tarzs it looks probable to me the originals included Jesus and not R.T. (and there is no mention at all of R.T. in LTG2) So I only think it fair not to assume the later books exactly match the early manuscripts.

At this point I am not taking anything for granted, and also naturally have to question (for a number of reasons) the writings of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar. Not because there isn't inspirational material (IMO), but because the source of Paul's texts are highly suspect in light of research pointing to appropriation of texts belonging to other people; some of which were written while Paul Twitchell was a child and before he reportedly met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951.

For some this is not important at all. Not important who said what, and when. I reckon for some it is the teachings that matter, including the 99 percent on the inner vs. the 1 percent of outer imperfect writings. In this case I would have to include my own inner guidance, the research it has led me to, and the natural vs. pseudo events of history revealed as a result. This is the Eckankar I know. This is "my" Eckankar. And this is my way of being a co-worker with God.

Now if people want to burden the spiritual path with pseudo events, myths and fictional characters then that is their way of being a co-worker. It doesn't have to be my way and I don't have to promote it ... and after having witnessed the "correct letter of truth". It matters not to me what grand titles attached to Harold Klemp and / or how many people worship what he says. Those should not be used to overwrite the actual truth.

Lately I've been wondering what Paul's early writings looked like and whether he did did reference and credit the authors and books who's texts he evidently compiled from. Also whether those references and credits were later edited out post 1964 by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar. If the later be true I suspect Gail and Darwin, along with Patti Simpson and others, knew the actual truth even if they didn't choose to share it with everyone else. And look at where they are now. Look at what was / is their role in Eckankar during the 1980 and after the change in leadership.

Does it not seem just a little bit curious how often Harold Klemp writes books dictated by Rebazar Tarzs when compared with Paul Twitchell?

Maybe Harold Klemp knows better? I said maybe :)

[Santim Vah]

SEE Yellow highlighting in

DWTM Experience Spiritual Wealth vs Master Key System by Charles Haanel 1912.pdf

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbeXV1Q28wZHk3cFU

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:58:24 AM UTC+11, Etznab wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:06:51 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
>
> > See biography section here.
>
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> > http://www.esmhome.org/library/TheMasterKeySystem.pdf
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> > Quoting excerpts:
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> > 40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences.
>
> >
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> >
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> > 41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.
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> > 42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 43. Remember that it is in the application alone that the value consists, and that a practical understanding of this law will substitute abundance for poverty, wisdom for ignorance, harmony for discord and freedom for tyranny, and certainly there can be no greater blessing than these from a material and social standpoint.
>
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> > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
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> > Compare with Rebazar Tarzs in - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell - Chapter titled: The Experience of Spiritual Wealth, the last five paragraphs.
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> > ***
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> > Ref# 41391720-9294-Dialogues With The Master vs. The Master Key (1912) Charles Haanel
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>

> Evidentally there is more. Go to the beginning of that chapter in Dialogues With The Master, about the 6th paragraph that reads: "Remember this - 'Much gathers more' is true on every plane of existence; and that 'loss leads to greater loss' is equally true. [... .]
>
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> Compare with:
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> PART ONE
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> 1. That much gathers more is true on every plane of existence and that loss leads to greater loss is equally true.
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> http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_4.htm
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> ***
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> I'm not going to take the trouble to illustrate every correspondences between the two texts, but those with the book DWTM can open it up and compare with that section from The Master Key link. I'll just say this, after I got to # 20 in The Master Key section - and found the same basic material in DWTM I said to myself: "Well it's not the first I've seen this kind of thing.

[Etznab]

One can see that Haanel's version is about a half century earlier than Paul Twitchell's (reportedly by Rebazar Tarzs) version.

Here are some other examples (keep in mind the 50-year difference):

C.H.

41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.

42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm

R.T.

"In order to express life there must be the power. Nothing can exist without the cosmic power. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this basic power from which and by which all things have been created and continually are being recreated.    
"Man lives in a fathomless sea of this plastic ether called the ECK Power; and this substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. Thought form takes mould or matrix from that which the substance expresses." (Based on: excerpts from Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, pp. 127-128)

***

Notice the following sentence is missing from DTWM: "It takes form according to the mental demand." And even though that sentence is missing, the following one is basic to Haanel and Rebazar Tarzs. Example:

C.H.

"Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses."

R.T.

"Thought form takes mould or matrix from that which the substance expresses."

And what substance is it being referred to?

C.H.

"We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active."

R.T.

"Man lives in a fathomless sea of this plastic ether called the ECK Power; and this substance is ever alive and active."

So notice how (in both paragraphs) it looks like Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs evidently are prejudiced about using the word "mind" and choose not to include it there - using other words in its place.

Is this because Eckankar, like Ruhani Satsang, like Radhasoami, etc., view "the mind" as something inferior to Spirit and is this why DWTM omits the word mind from its version?

OK. So what about this paragraph?

C.H.

40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences."

http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm

R.T.

"Recognition is a mental process, mental action, and is, therefore the interaction of the individual, of the ECK Power working on the Third Plane, and the ECK Power is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things; this mental action and reaction is the Law of Causation. The principle of causation does not begin in the individual but in the cosmic power. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences."

***

There it looked like Haanel's version was being "corrected" according to Eckankar doctrine, but in this case shouldn't Eckankar, Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs have referenced Haanel's version and pointed out that the latter had changes? The material in DWTM chapter THE EXPERIENCE OF SPIRITUAL WEALTH basically has the 1-43 paragraphs by Charles Haanel, in similar order, but R.T., P.T. or Eckankar evidently has changes in its version. Should they not have referenced Haanel's writings appearing about 50 years earlier? Especially considering the extent of material someone apparently borrowed / compiled from Haanel?

Let's see, 1912 x 50 = 1962. Was it OK by law, after 50 years, to take creative works by an author and change them and omit a reference to them? I'm asking because I'm just not sure.

What is to stop ANYBODY from doing the same thing to the writings of Eckankar and Harold Klemp fifty years from now? And would something like that be kosher?

[Santim Vah]

What stands out to me is how Paul shifts the attention from the Mind to the ECK or Soul level (plane/focus whatever) ... yet as he does this he uses the same text; which goes back to speaking about the universal mind, and so on.

eg have a look at these phrases from Haanel to Twitchell ...

In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind.

PT "In order to express life there must be the power. Nothing can exist without the cosmic power.

We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active

PT Man lives in a fathomless sea of this plastic ether called the ECK Power; and this substance is ever alive and active

and PT

"Recognition is a mental process, mental action, and is, therefore the interaction of the individual, of the ECK Power working on the Third Plane, and the ECK Power is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things; this mental action and reaction is the Law of Causation."

Paul basically changes the idea in phrase "Universal Mind" into the NEW TERM the "ËCK Power", which sounds like he is saying that the Eck Power is the ECK operating thru the 3rd plane the Mind (rs system?) ...as the Universal Mind Power iow, Cosmic Power ... IOW he's saying the same thing essentially imho but just made a new word up for the Universal Mind Power ... use Eck Power instead; maybe to "fit out" these writings for Eckankar(?) in 1970.

But essentially it's still the same text, focus and ideas overall.

PT then adds in NEW ideas:
If you sit in silence, gazing sweetly into the spiritual eye, I will
come and give you ALL help. Only ask for me.

and
.. Relax and let the Master take charge.

and
"Now, I tell you this. That when you think upon my
radiant form or love me sincerely, the thoughts sent through.."

and

This is what ECKANKAR calls the ECK power, or Sound Current, and what is known to the Western world as God.

and ...
identified with this power, or, in other words, man is that
power ITSELF. This is saying that 'I am God and God is 1'.

This is what you realize upon reaching the Fifth Plane.

---

These last few items and others seem to be completely different words (subject/topic) to what was in Haanel's text. Somethings NEW are added in, iow.

I'm not sure how clear all that is, best I can .. atm.
<yawn>

cheers,

Not Sure :)

[Etznab]

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 11:52:55 AM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:
> On Monday, November 26, 2012 10:56:40 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:06:51 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> >
> > > See biography section here.
> >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> > > http://www.esmhome.org/library/TheMasterKeySystem.pdf
> >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> > > Quoting excerpts:
> >
> > >
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> > >
> >

> > > 40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >

> > > 41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.
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> > >
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> > > 42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
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> >

> > > 43. Remember that it is in the application alone that the value consists, and that a practical understanding of this law will substitute abundance for poverty, wisdom for ignorance, harmony for discord and freedom for tyranny, and certainly there can be no greater blessing than these from a material and social standpoint.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
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> > >
> >
> > > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Compare with Rebazar Tarzs in - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell - Chapter titled: The Experience of Spiritual Wealth, the last five paragraphs.
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> > >
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> > > ***
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> >
> > > Ref# 41391720-9294-Dialogues With The Master vs. The Master Key (1912) Charles Haanel
> >
> >
> >
> > For those who argue for less than 3% I wonder how many of them have looked? For instance, I just looked at Dialogues With The Master chapter: THE HEART CENTER.
> >
> >
> >
> > Look at paragraph four in DWTM that begins "Each function of life ... ."
> >
> >
> >
> > Now go here and look for the same words.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.ask-gratitude.com/part-three.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Notice how The Master Key System begins to quote Troward, concerning the cerebro-spinal system. In Paul Twitchell's version, however, it's all the same person. Rebazar Tarzs!
> >
> >
> >
> > (I've seen this type of thing before. Where two, or more people in an author's book - The Path Of The Masters, by Julian Johnson, for example - in Paul Twitchell's version become Rebazar Tarzs!)
> >
> >
> >
> > OK. Now I just found this and the time it took me to find it amounted to less than a minute. All I did was type "Each function of life and each action" into a Google search box and click enter. Try it and notice how Charles Haanel comes up, with a link to the text where it can be found. It's like pulling a string attached to a whole ball of YARN. Pun intended.
> >
> >
> >
> > My problem is not the less than 3%. If that were the case life would be easy. As it is now, it's going to take me the better part of a day to type out that chapter for DWTM (there is no online source and I don't have a scanner) and line it up side by side with the corresponding text from Haanel. This is part of the problem then. Finding this stuff is one thing, illustrating it is quite another.
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> >
> >
> >
> > Ref# 41391720-9294-DWTM (THE HEART CENTER) vs. Charles Haanel (The Master Key System)
>
> on the other hand, what is it that you are proving by the opposite of those claims???? that 2 or 3% is inaccurate, okay, but if that were all, you'd have stopped long ago, so what is the real motivation here, im curious...

For starters, the real motive is to determine the role of Rebazar Tarzs in all of this. If he had a role in it and if he was / is ever a real person by that name.

[Etznab]

" ... What stands out to me is how Paul shifts the attention from the Mind to the ECK or Soul level (plane/focus whatever) ... yet as he does this he uses the same text; which goes back to speaking about the universal mind, and so on."

Again, this is a reason for determining Rebazar Tarzs' role in all of this, or if he even had a role. Because, in order to put full responsibility onto Paul I think one first has to take it off of Rebazar Tarzs. If Rebazar Tarzs was not responsible, or liable for having dictated such material, changes included, then what was the role of Rebazar Tarzs in that book called Dialogues With The Master? (Featuring pictures of both characters together.)

Marman mentioned something about seeing correspondence between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal Singh that (to him) read similar to Dialogues With The Master; it was something to that effect, but I need to find the text to confirm. And as for the dialogue chapters with material mirroring Ruhani Satsang teachings I can definitely imagine that.

I think what happened with several of Paul's books was that the manuscripts were added onto in later years. That it's possible DWTM was not completed in the early 1950's, but before publishing it as an Eckankar book Paul included materials from other books he had since read.

[Henosis Sage]

--------

RE:

"That it's possible DWTM was not completed in the early 1950's, but before
publishing it as an Eckankar book Paul included materials from other books
he had since read."

Looking at the known historical record alone, the only person who has said
anything on when DWTM was written is Paul Twitchell himself.

Relying on paul's word is, as given in any eckankar book, is imho very risky.
without some kind of other confirmation to substantiate what he claims.

Paul is the only one who suggests via his writings and one article (?) that
the series of talks in dwtm then followed onto the 'journey' in the tiger's
fang book .. and that that likely occurred circa july 1957 via other info, eg
DM (is his word trustworthy given all the errors he has made?) and the
astrologer.

Paul is the one who claims the dwtm contents happened between meeting up with RT in darjeeling in 1951 and the early 1960s ... before paul wrote The Far country, which he himself claims was written in 1964 before moving to San diego.

Nothing anyone else has said or could say, HK, DM, Patti etc could know any
better ... only Gail should have some "first hand knowledge" and I believe
her silence to date should be enough to doubt her credibility if she did
say something now.

and it's ONLY twitchell who claimed that he had finished "manuscripts" when
he spoke of these in LTG and other missives. No one has seen one, no TTF is
supposed to exist or be seen, no originals of LTG for they are held by gail,
HK or DM may say some things about "paul archive" but their own credibility for
accuracy and truthfulness are extremely lacking, imho.

That twitchell's original; archive is not accessible, has been under lock and
key since 1971, that it could have been destroyed and no one would know, is
enough evidence to realise that information has been intentionally kept secret.

Without full and open access to that original material all discussions and
findings possibilities etc become almost moot. imho at least.

[Henosis Sage]

----

Dec 27, 1979 Sri Darwin said this in a the mystic world newsletter:

"There is no plagiarism in Paulji's The Far Country. It was dictated to
Paul by Rebazar Tarzs. The book claimed to be plagiarized by Paul is not
copyrighted; such plagiarism attacks are not true."

and

in July 1971, by Paul Twitchell from the private audio recording:

"There's a word you should become acquainted with, and it's spelled

ESAGQUI, and the pronunciation of it is SA-KU. Now this word takes

in the whole of the non-believers of ECK, the pagans and the

heathens who are in a conspiracy to destroy ECKANKAR, not only in

the physical but in the psychic worlds....those who are bracketed

within the category of these people are ac-tually against us. They

have been - since the beginning of mankind or the formation of the

lower worlds. All these people are under the Kal forces or

determining a course that we take. We aren't affected by them but

we have to learn to defend ourselves. We of ourselves have done

nothing but there are a tremendous amount of falsehoods,

exaggerations, plain flat lies that are passed out about us, and

about me, in which you as a follower of ECK should never let any of

this shake you. This is a test at times!"

cheers sean

[Etznab]

I think that kind of bullshit and lies is one reason churches are going empty. When people are lied to their face by a person supposed to be representing God. I think that is the worst kind of lie there is.

A.R.E. has seen one lie after another unfold over the years. Things that people never knew before about Paul Twitchell and the writings of Eckankar. Along with more and more examples of copying and plagiarism come to light (many examples of which people were taught had come from Rebazar Tarzs) that it is no wonder Harold talked about Death of an Ideal.

Meanwhile (there haven't been many, but there have been some) the apologists and naysayers, the minimalists and spin meisters have tried to run damage control and P.R. campaigns. Doug Marman's book was like a counterpoint to the findings of David Lane. That was the format that I saw. And it wasn't as if David Lane were not human and made some assumptions, but I believe the majority of what David presented was accurate and fair.

Say one thing against Paul Twitchell and Eckankar for the lies, the copied and plagiarized material, etc. and (unless your Harold Klemp) some people will mock and attack you personally for it. Even to the point of making up lies about you! In effect, using the very tactic that people are concerned about, are critical about and are wanting to stop. This is riding for the brand of a cult, imho, and it is not about respect for the truth and doing the right thing for all concerned.

Darwin and Gail are history now, along with Paul Twitchell. Darwin was kicked out of Ecklankar long ago. Years later he died, without so much as a mention at a worldwide seminar, or eulogy in the Mystic World publication. Gail I hear, after selling a lot of Paul's things to Eckankar, is doing her own thing and hasn't been to a WWS in like forever? Paul, of course, died in 1971. Even Patti Simpson has translated, along with probably others who were responsible for the formation and publishing of Eckankar writings. In spite of all that, many of the same writings from the past exist today and still I haven't seen Eckankar officially make mention and giving credit to the authors and books that were appropriated. Instead I am having to ask What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs in the quoted passages said to come from him? Passages that mirror the writings of other authors and their books?

I think someone should have done a proper independent investigation a long time ago and exposed the truth about every little yarn spun by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar. David Lane and others should not have had to publish findings and then get demonized as a result. Personally I don't believe there ever was an independent investigation, or that it is in Eckankar's best interest to allow one. If it were to ever happen, however, one could almost bet the file cabinet would come open and if any were to go missing it would probably be then.

[Etznab]

... and if any files were to go missing it would probably be then.

[Kinpa]

BORING......

[Etznab]

"... the things that PT put into his books were truth, and those truths are very much working today, as are the Masters"

people check to verify if the words are true if / when they were believed to have come from an Eck Master?

Iow, Are people at liberty to "criticize" the text (no matter in Eckankar book, or an earlier author's book)? Are people at liberty to explore the truth in all of these texts?

Then there is also the prospect of determining truth about source; along with whether any of the information is actually true.

I agree that a lot of what Paul twitchell put into his books reflected truth, yet I would not make it an absolute (as if to say "all" things) were true. So maybe this is the difference of opinions between me and you? I said maybe, as I'm not sure if you worship P.T. so much as to believe everything he said was true.

[Etznab]

See original.

[Etznab]

Can people check to verify if the words are true if / when they were believed to have come from an Eck Master?

[Etznab]

Hide quoted text? Interesting that :)

[Etznab]

"... excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~! .. ."

Thank you, my Eckist friend Kinpa. I will. :)

[Henosis Sage]

On Thursday, 31 December 2015 11:44:45 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:
> On Saturday, December 1, 2012 at 1:35:35 AM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:

> >
> >

KINPA "The Squirrel Buster" WROTE: 3 YEARS and ONE MONTH AGO

> "... excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~! .. ."
>
> Thank you, my Eckist friend Kinpa. I will. :)

He used to be so nice.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1379274/Scientologist-Squirrel-busters-stalk-church-defector.html

[Kinpa]

Be sure not to forget your initiate report! You made such nice threats! I am waiting with baited breath to see how they respond!!

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 1 January 2016 11:46:21 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

snipped

> > > > Learning about where the text came from. What was the source.
> > >
> > > excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~!
> >
> > "... excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~! .. ."
> >
> > Thank you, my Eckist friend Kinpa. I will. :)
>

KINPA SCRIBBLED:

> Be sure not to forget your initiate report! You made such nice threats! I am waiting with baited breath to see how they respond!!

It's just like MANA from heaven; and The gift that keeps on giving.


So the new claim today is that "Eztnab ... made such nice threats!" ??????????


WOW un-fucking-believable; that's DEFAMATION, it's NOT TRUE - it never happened.

A DUMB IDIOT .... or merely mad n bat shit crazy'???

I have no idea and frankly, I do not care one bit about him nor what the outcomes end up being.

[Etznab]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 at 8:37:33 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

> On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:58:24 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:06:51 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> >
> > > See biography section here.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > http://www.esmhome.org/library/TheMasterKeySystem.pdf
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Quoting excerpts:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 43. Remember that it is in the application alone that the value consists, and that a practical understanding of this law will substitute abundance for poverty, wisdom for ignorance, harmony for discord and freedom for tyranny, and certainly there can be no greater blessing than these from a material and social standpoint.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Compare with Rebazar Tarzs in - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell - Chapter titled: The Experience of Spiritual Wealth, the last five paragraphs.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
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> > > ***
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> > > Ref# 41391720-9294-Dialogues With The Master vs. The Master Key (1912) Charles Haanel
> >
> >
> >

> > Evidentally there is more. Go to the beginning of that chapter in Dialogues With The Master, about the 6th paragraph that reads: "Remember this - 'Much gathers more' is true on every plane of existence; and that 'loss leads to greater loss' is equally true. [... .]
> >
> >
> >
> > Compare with:
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> > PART ONE
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. That much gathers more is true on every plane of existence and that loss leads to greater loss is equally true.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_4.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not going to take the trouble to illustrate every correspondences between the two texts, but those with the book DWTM can open it up and compare with that section from The Master Key link. I'll just say this, after I got to # 20 in The Master Key section - and found the same basic material in DWTM I said to myself: "Well it's not the first I've seen this kind of thing.
>

> It's more like the whole chapter. That's how similar. One can use two links and follow along in The Experience of Spiritual Wealth chapter from DWTM.
>
> http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_4.htm
>
> http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
>
> What is that? About 40 paragraphs or so? Where is a piggy bank large enough for the 2 percent plus?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwSaJw4XUw

That was from the beginning when I started to discover multiple new examples.

Here is why this is important for me to research and discuss (I'll try to make this as plain and simple as possible.) The idea that words came from a 500+ year-old master from a long lineage of masters (as literary device, authority, whatever) contributes something to the words and makes them into something more except it does not automatically make them one iota more true! Looking at the earlier source(s) and plagiarized books, does anybody wonder why the author and the author's books were / are not mentioned? Why Eckankar and Eck Masters are mentioned instead?

So take away Eck Masters and Eckankar by going back to a time before there was an Eckankar religion created by Paul Twitchell. Go back to the source material, to the books and authors who wrote them and then take a look at what is there. If the Eckankar teachings really came from Eckankar masters, as Paul described, then all those books and authors copied from, etc., would not even be a factor. However, a point I am making is that the books and authors ARE a factor and that a person (including a member of Eckankar) should have the liberty to look at those sources, research and discuss them without having that constitutional freedom violated. The same should not have to endure persecutions in the form of what certain individuals (Kinpa, for one) have called poking and prophecy when the actual fact shows them to be outright intimidation and lies - of the most vile sort - directed at an individual repeatedly in spite of repeated publicly-stated disapproval by the same. (On that last point, I had repeatedly confronted Kinpa about his outrageous statements and lies published about me and my friends even. The facts will show that for months Kinpa has continued with the same outrageous statements in spite of my attempts to correct him. In other words he evidently chooses not to show a common courtesy and respect for another member of Eckankar, let alone another individual who does not share all of his same beliefs).

You can stop stating that I am not a current member of Eckankar now, Kinpa. And so I can accept your honest apology. (For someone claiming to have abilities at remote viewing you sure can't read a person's Eckankar I.D. card correctly. Or is it that you can't admit having slandered another person and then having them set you straight?)

[Kinpa]

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Your constitutional freedom has absolutely NOT been violated! If you think it has, that is fine, but it IS merely your opinion, unless you have some case law precedents to show us proving otherwise. Next you will have to prove that I MADE you unable to read the materials you claim I did (for it to be your being denied a constitutional right) and while you're at it, perhaps get an actual lawyer to help you out, rather than assuming to know the meaning and interpretations on the law, as well as the limits to those interpretations!

Persecution is just another opinion, and as you have the right to post what you find in the way of plagiarisms, I also have the right to state MY opinion of your conclusions, that right being given to my by YOUR posting them in public in the first place! OOPS!

Now, what about your considerations of MY constitutional rights? One of which IS the freedom of religion, a thing that neither of you actually allow for ANYONE! BUT, did either of you EVER ask permission to do this? No, you did not, in fact this brings again the remembrance of your words to another ECKist here, where you told him that HIS protesting against your constantly rambling over and over and over the same plagiarisms was infringing on his RIGHT to be free of YOUR persecution of HIS religion! What was that you said? That his reaction to you is what spurs you on to continue? That sounds not at all like ANY actual ECKist,one who gets satisfaction from purposely attacking the religion he claims (but fails to prove) to be a member of? Make all of the excuses you want to, but this is not only hypocrisy, but is also taking JOY in causing any ill feelings in another because YOU choose to! Using the "truth" as your excuse is both a lie and is just plain weak! But do as you will, NO ONE has ever denied your ability to say anything you wanted to. Cry me a river!

(On that last point, I had repeatedly confronted Kinpa about his outrageous statements and lies published about me and my friends even. The facts will show that for months Kinpa has continued with the same outrageous statements in spite of my attempts to correct him. In other words he evidently chooses not to show a common courtesy and respect for another member of Eckankar, let alone another individual who does not share all of his same beliefs).

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I called you a liar. It's pretty plain and simple, prove that you are not and THEN I will stop saying it. I couldn't care less what beliefs you share or do not share, I don't use beliefs, I prefer knowing. Having said that I've noticed that YOU refuse to accept MY choice (for myself alone) to NOT CARE if Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized one or one-thousand books!

> You can stop stating that I am not a current member of Eckankar now, Kinpa. And so I can accept your honest apology. (For someone claiming to have abilities at remote viewing you sure can't read a person's Eckankar I.D. card correctly. Or is it that you can't admit having slandered another person and then having them set you straight?)

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Why should I? Why not show your CURRENT card then, and let everyone see it! I showed mine. There will not be any apology until you SHOW your current card. One picture would have ended this subject quite a while ago, but you chose NOT to. You threatened to report me to the organization in your initiate's report, and I invited you to do just that! So why are you STILL complaining here about it? Because you have NOT sent in an initiate's report that complained about my words to you here? CLAIMING I cannot accurately remote view is as much bull shit talk as you claim anything I say referring to it is. There is NO difference between the two, other than the fact that I simply do not care what your or sean's opinions of what I say are. I never did say that remote viewing was an ECK super power. I also never said that that was all that I was able to do. You assume much, but assuming that you will get an apology without ever showing ANY actual proof of your being a current member is simply ridiculous! Show the card if you would like an apology!

After the great many tings that you have said here about Mr. Twitchell, as well as the great man things that sean-o has said about him, and Harold for that matter, and seen you respond in the same vein sort of outs you from being an actual ECKist. Even if you HAVE a current ID card, you would STILL not be an actual ECKist, which I have absolutely NO problem with. It's YOUR life, do whatever you want with it, I am not concerned about it. Your karma is yours, and mine is my own, and I have no problem's with addressing the Lords of Karma directly. I do it often (here is where sean-o will use this statement so Wikipedia diagnose me with any number of mental disorders that HE actually has!), or are these Lords of Karma also fake? Because Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized them from someone's book somewhere?? Does plagiarism change whether or not they actually exist?

What about EITHER of you answering my questions about WHY Kirpal Singh is so important when he was NEVER actually made a Sant at any time? What about Jaimal Singh,who was ousted from Radhasoami for impersonating a Guru? Sawan was actually initiated by an Agra Sant, and of course he was also an initiator, and never actually claimed to BE a Sant in his entire life, so he can be left out of it, but why is it alright for other people to take from previous religions, and even a number of previous religions, change the interpretations of those teachings, rename it, and continue? But Sri Paul Twitchell cannot? Seriously? DOUBLE STANDARD! And neither of you will even address that subject, while you continually rant on and on about plagiarism? Is truth REALLY as important to you as you CLAIM it to be? If so, then WHY do you avoid one particular aspect of truth?

BTW, I have not slandered you at all, for that to be the case, you will have no choice but to first PROVE that you ARE a current member, and THEN it still is not slander, that is called libel, you know? The written and printed form of slander? Which IS still nothing more than a claim that you have offered NO proof on. As for your friends being slandered, you WILL have something of a hard time ever proving that, because the use of the words "your friends" is not slander. Did I include even a single full name? At any point in time?

Thus far you are only sinking into an ever deeper hole along with your friend who claims to be sending things to the FBI. He loves to hear himself speak however, so, until the FBI decides to contact me about anything, sean-o can take his claims AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!

So, there you have it richard mcclintock and sean arundel! I hope that you both are able to enjoy this as much as I have been! Oh! and have a great day/night/whatever!

[Etznab]

Why don't you know about my membership card if you have remote viewing powers? Or is it that you don't have those powers? I believe you don't have that power, but have the power to imagine wrongly and then act on your wrong imagination to the extent of slandering another member of Eckankar as a result. This is just an example of the topic being discussed here for years and one that you like to say that everybody does it and nobody really cares. The point is that you seem unable to believe and to know something whether true or false without proof and actual evidence. The reason you need to actually see (have me show you) my Eck I.D. card.

And btw, try showing some actual quotes when referencing what I wrote to that other person. Can you do that? You, who has to see in order to believe?

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 2 January 2016 12:46:51 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Your constitutional freedom has absolutely NOT been violated! If you think it has, that is fine, but it IS merely your opinion, unless you have some case law precedents to show us proving otherwise. Next you will have to prove that I MADE you unable to read the materials you claim I did (for it to be your being denied a constitutional right) and while you're at it, perhaps get an actual lawyer to help you out, rather than assuming to know the meaning and interpretations on the law, as well as the limits to those interpretations!
>
> Persecution is just another opinion, and as you have the right to post what you find in the way of plagiarisms, I also have the right to state MY opinion of your conclusions, that right being given to my by YOUR posting them in public in the first place! OOPS!
>
> Now, what about your considerations of MY constitutional rights? One of which IS the freedom of religion, a thing that neither of you actually allow for ANYONE! BUT, did either of you EVER ask permission to do this? No, you did not, in fact this brings again the remembrance of your words to another ECKist here, where you told him that HIS protesting against your constantly rambling over and over and over the same plagiarisms was infringing on his RIGHT to be free of YOUR persecution of HIS religion! What was that you said? That his reaction to you is what spurs you on to continue? That sounds not at all like ANY actual ECKist,one who gets satisfaction from purposely attacking the religion he claims (but fails to prove) to be a member of? Make all of the excuses you want to, but this is not only hypocrisy, but is also taking JOY in causing any ill feelings in another because YOU choose to! Using the "truth" as your excuse is both a lie and is just plain weak! But do as you will, NO ONE has ever denied your ability to say anything you wanted to. Cry me a river!
>
>
>
>
> (On that last point, I had repeatedly confronted Kinpa about his outrageous statements and lies published about me and my friends even. The facts will show that for months Kinpa has continued with the same outrageous statements in spite of my attempts to correct him. In other words he evidently chooses not to show a common courtesy and respect for another member of Eckankar, let alone another individual who does not share all of his same beliefs).
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I called you a liar. It's pretty plain and simple, prove that you are not and THEN I will stop saying it. I couldn't care less what beliefs you share or do not share, I don't use beliefs, I prefer knowing. Having said that I've noticed that YOU refuse to accept MY choice (for myself alone) to NOT CARE if Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized one or one-thousand books!
>
>
>
> > You can stop stating that I am not a current member of Eckankar now, Kinpa. And so I can accept your honest apology. (For someone claiming to have abilities at remote viewing you sure can't read a person's Eckankar I.D. card correctly. Or is it that you can't admit having slandered another person and then having them set you straight?)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Why should I? Why not show your CURRENT card then, and let everyone see it! I showed mine. There will not be any apology until you SHOW your current card. One picture would have ended this subject quite a while ago, but you chose NOT to. You threatened to report me to the organization in your initiate's report, and I invited you to do just that! So why are you STILL complaining here about it? Because you have NOT sent in an initiate's report that complained about my words to you here? CLAIMING I cannot accurately remote view is as much bull shit talk as you claim anything I say referring to it is. There is NO difference between the two, other than the fact that I simply do not care what your or sean's opinions of what I say are. I never did say that remote viewing was an ECK super power. I also never said that that was all that I was able to do. You assume much, but assuming that you will get an apology without ever showing ANY actual proof of your being a current member is simply ridiculous! Show the card if you would like an apology!
>
> After the great many tings that you have said here about Mr. Twitchell, as well as the great man things that sean-o has said about him, and Harold for that matter, and seen you respond in the same vein sort of outs you from being an actual ECKist. Even if you HAVE a current ID card, you would STILL not be an actual ECKist, which I have absolutely NO problem with. It's YOUR life, do whatever you want with it, I am not concerned about it. Your karma is yours, and mine is my own, and I have no problem's with addressing the Lords of Karma directly. I do it often (here is where sean-o will use this statement so Wikipedia diagnose me with any number of mental disorders that HE actually has!), or are these Lords of Karma also fake? Because Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized them from someone's book somewhere?? Does plagiarism change whether or not they actually exist?
>
> What about EITHER of you answering my questions about WHY Kirpal Singh is so important when he was NEVER actually made a Sant at any time? What about Jaimal Singh,who was ousted from Radhasoami for impersonating a Guru? Sawan was actually initiated by an Agra Sant, and of course he was also an initiator, and never actually claimed to BE a Sant in his entire life, so he can be left out of it, but why is it alright for other people to take from previous religions, and even a number of previous religions, change the interpretations of those teachings, rename it, and continue? But Sri Paul Twitchell cannot? Seriously? DOUBLE STANDARD! And neither of you will even address that subject, while you continually rant on and on about plagiarism? Is truth REALLY as important to you as you CLAIM it to be? If so, then WHY do you avoid one particular aspect of truth?
>
> BTW, I have not slandered you at all, for that to be the case, you will have no choice but to first PROVE that you ARE a current member, and THEN it still is not slander, that is called libel, you know? The written and printed form of slander? Which IS still nothing more than a claim that you have offered NO proof on. As for your friends being slandered, you WILL have something of a hard time ever proving that, because the use of the words "your friends" is not slander. Did I include even a single full name? At any point in time?
>
> Thus far you are only sinking into an ever deeper hole along with your friend who claims to be sending things to the FBI. He loves to hear himself speak however, so, until the FBI decides to contact me about anything, sean-o can take his claims AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!
>
> So, there you have it richard mcclintock and sean arundel! I hope that you both are able to enjoy this as much as I have been! Oh! and have a great day/night/whatever!

--

Oh fuck off Kinpa, you're a dumb idiot and a LYING SCUMBAG.

Will someone please find someone who can educate Kinpa on a) HOW TO READ
and b) THINK PROPERLY?

Answer: NO. Some things are simply impossible.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 2 January 2016 13:45:54 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 7:46:51 PM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:

snippers

> > >
> > > That was from the beginning when I started to discover multiple new examples.
> > >
> > > Here is why this is important for me to research and discuss (I'll try to make this as plain and simple as possible.) The idea that words came from a 500+ year-old master from a long lineage of masters (as literary device, authority, whatever) contributes something to the words and makes them into something more except it does not automatically make them one iota more true! Looking at the earlier source(s) and plagiarized books, does anybody wonder why the author and the author's books were / are not mentioned? Why Eckankar and Eck Masters are mentioned instead?
> > >
> > > So take away Eck Masters and Eckankar by going back to a time before there was an Eckankar religion created by Paul Twitchell. Go back to the source material, to the books and authors who wrote them and then take a look at what is there. If the Eckankar teachings really came from Eckankar masters, as Paul described, then all those books and authors copied from, etc., would not even be a factor. However, a point I am making is that the books and authors ARE a factor and that a person (including a member of Eckankar) should have the liberty to look at those sources, research and discuss them without having that constitutional freedom violated. The same should not have to endure persecutions in the form of what certain individuals (Kinpa, for one) have called poking and prophecy when the actual fact shows them to be outright intimidation and lies - of the most vile sort - directed at an individual repeatedly in spite of repeated publicly-stated disapproval by the same.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Your constitutional freedom has absolutely NOT been violated! If you think it has, that is fine, but it IS merely your opinion, unless you have some case law precedents to show us proving otherwise. Next you will have to prove that I MADE you unable to read the materials you claim I did (for it to be your being denied a constitutional right) and while you're at it, perhaps get an actual lawyer to help you out, rather than assuming to know the meaning and interpretations on the law, as well as the limits to those interpretations!
> >
> > Persecution is just another opinion, and as you have the right to post what you find in the way of plagiarisms, I also have the right to state MY opinion of your conclusions, that right being given to my by YOUR posting them in public in the first place! OOPS!
> >
> > Now, what about your considerations of MY constitutional rights? One of which IS the freedom of religion, a thing that neither of you actually allow for ANYONE! BUT, did either of you EVER ask permission to do this? No, you did not, in fact this brings again the remembrance of your words to another ECKist here, where you told him that HIS protesting against your constantly rambling over and over and over the same plagiarisms was infringing on his RIGHT to be free of YOUR persecution of HIS religion! What was that you said? That his reaction to you is what spurs you on to continue? That sounds not at all like ANY actual ECKist,one who gets satisfaction from purposely attacking the religion he claims (but fails to prove) to be a member of? Make all of the excuses you want to, but this is not only hypocrisy, but is also taking JOY in causing any ill feelings in another because YOU choose to! Using the "truth" as your excuse is both a lie and is just plain weak! But do as you will, NO ONE has ever denied your ability to say anything you wanted to. Cry me a river!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (On that last point, I had repeatedly confronted Kinpa about his outrageous statements and lies published about me and my friends even. The facts will show that for months Kinpa has continued with the same outrageous statements in spite of my attempts to correct him. In other words he evidently chooses not to show a common courtesy and respect for another member of Eckankar, let alone another individual who does not share all of his same beliefs).
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > I called you a liar. It's pretty plain and simple, prove that you are not and THEN I will stop saying it. I couldn't care less what beliefs you share or do not share, I don't use beliefs, I prefer knowing. Having said that I've noticed that YOU refuse to accept MY choice (for myself alone) to NOT CARE if Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized one or one-thousand books!
> >
> >
> >
> > > You can stop stating that I am not a current member of Eckankar now, Kinpa. And so I can accept your honest apology. (For someone claiming to have abilities at remote viewing you sure can't read a person's Eckankar I.D. card correctly. Or is it that you can't admit having slandered another person and then having them set you straight?)
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Why should I? Why not show your CURRENT card then, and let everyone see it! I showed mine. There will not be any apology until you SHOW your current card. One picture would have ended this subject quite a while ago, but you chose NOT to. You threatened to report me to the organization in your initiate's report, and I invited you to do just that! So why are you STILL complaining here about it? Because you have NOT sent in an initiate's report that complained about my words to you here? CLAIMING I cannot accurately remote view is as much bull shit talk as you claim anything I say referring to it is. There is NO difference between the two, other than the fact that I simply do not care what your or sean's opinions of what I say are. I never did say that remote viewing was an ECK super power. I also never said that that was all that I was able to do. You assume much, but assuming that you will get an apology without ever showing ANY actual proof of your being a current member is simply ridiculous! Show the card if you would like an apology!
> >
> > After the great many tings that you have said here about Mr. Twitchell, as well as the great man things that sean-o has said about him, and Harold for that matter, and seen you respond in the same vein sort of outs you from being an actual ECKist. Even if you HAVE a current ID card, you would STILL not be an actual ECKist, which I have absolutely NO problem with. It's YOUR life, do whatever you want with it, I am not concerned about it. Your karma is yours, and mine is my own, and I have no problem's with addressing the Lords of Karma directly. I do it often (here is where sean-o will use this statement so Wikipedia diagnose me with any number of mental disorders that HE actually has!), or are these Lords of Karma also fake? Because Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized them from someone's book somewhere?? Does plagiarism change whether or not they actually exist?
> >
> > What about EITHER of you answering my questions about WHY Kirpal Singh is so important when he was NEVER actually made a Sant at any time? What about Jaimal Singh,who was ousted from Radhasoami for impersonating a Guru? Sawan was actually initiated by an Agra Sant, and of course he was also an initiator, and never actually claimed to BE a Sant in his entire life, so he can be left out of it, but why is it alright for other people to take from previous religions, and even a number of previous religions, change the interpretations of those teachings, rename it, and continue? But Sri Paul Twitchell cannot? Seriously? DOUBLE STANDARD! And neither of you will even address that subject, while you continually rant on and on about plagiarism? Is truth REALLY as important to you as you CLAIM it to be? If so, then WHY do you avoid one particular aspect of truth?
> >
> > BTW, I have not slandered you at all, for that to be the case, you will have no choice but to first PROVE that you ARE a current member, and THEN it still is not slander, that is called libel, you know? The written and printed form of slander? Which IS still nothing more than a claim that you have offered NO proof on. As for your friends being slandered, you WILL have something of a hard time ever proving that, because the use of the words "your friends" is not slander. Did I include even a single full name? At any point in time?
> >
> > Thus far you are only sinking into an ever deeper hole along with your friend who claims to be sending things to the FBI. He loves to hear himself speak however, so, until the FBI decides to contact me about anything, sean-o can take his claims AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!
> >
> > So, there you have it richard mcclintock and sean arundel! I hope that you both are able to enjoy this as much as I have been! Oh! and have a great day/night/whatever!
>
> Why don't you know about my membership card if you have remote viewing powers? Or is it that you don't have those powers? I believe you don't have that power, but have the power to imagine wrongly and then act on your wrong imagination to the extent of slandering another member of Eckankar as a result. This is just an example of the topic being discussed here for years and one that you like to say that everybody does it and nobody really cares. The point is that you seem unable to believe and to know something whether true or false without proof and actual evidence. The reason you need to actually see (have me show you) my Eck I.D. card.
>
> And btw, try showing some actual quotes when referencing what I wrote to that other person. Can you do that? You, who has to see in order to believe?

ETZNAB to KINPA:

"Why don't you know about my membership card if you have remote viewing powers?
Or is it that you don't have those powers?"

LOL

aka "How to prove Kinpa is an idiot, a fool, and a liar:101"

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 2 January 2016 12:46:51 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

>

> Thus far you are only sinking into an ever deeper hole along with your friend who claims to be sending things to the FBI. He loves to hear himself speak however, so, until the FBI decides to contact me about anything, sean-o can take his claims AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!
>
> So, there you have it richard mcclintock and sean arundel! I hope that you both are able to enjoy this as much as I have been! Oh! and have a great day/night/whatever!

KINPA:

"Having said that I've noticed that YOU refuse to accept MY choice (for myself
alone) to NOT CARE if Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized one or one-thousand books!"

LMAO ..... well he Kinpa sure as shit CARED about me "plagiarizing" some
comments on the LFN website and posting it here last year.

He and the LFN control freaks when ape shit about it.

Meanwhile I never "claimed" to have sent anything to the FBI.

Meanwhile here's another little missive to send to the FBI and Ms Miller at ECK HQ.

"AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully
and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!"

Ooh aah Matthew, wash your mouth out you naughty bad boy.

And do please GET OUT OF MY ARSE!

Never known anyone so fixated with SHIT .... god what happened to him when he
was a young child being potty trained is anyone's guess - but it wasn't HEALTHY.

But whatever it was it is "101" on how to raise a narcissistic creep.

(shrug)

RE: "until the FBI decides to contact me about anything"

YES. The Universe has it's own way of working things out. In it's own time.

In the meantime, there's no reason to worry or be bothered about anything YOU do or say.

Carry one ... keep on going. Be a big man on the LFN all you can. ;-)

I bet the "wife's" impressed by you and bounces your bones even more than usual of late.

YOU DA MAN KINPA!

(smile)

[Kinpa]

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you feel any better now? I will make sure the FBI sees these comments too,so that they can have an honest understanding of the ways your mind works. This is just one MORE of those OVER-REACTIONS! OUCH! That MUST hurt like hell!

> Will someone please find someone who can educate Kinpa on a) HOW TO READ
> and b) THINK PROPERLY?
>
> Answer: NO. Some things are simply impossible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry sean-o, but you are NO ONE to judge anyone else on "HOW TO READ and THINK PROPERLY" Which means nothing more than to AGREE with YOU! Such hubris! Hilarious! Poor wittle ego-monster is having a bad day?? Cry me a river why don;t you???

Not able to state anything factual concerning Constitutional law? What I stated WAS factual, sorry if you do not like that, BUT that IS YOUR problem, not mine!

Perhaps get some degree of education about Constitutional Law as well as its various interpretations AND the limits to said interpretations! Otherwise you are in NO way able to even comment on the topic! Which is why you have launched into name calling once again! Funny stuff from the guy that CLAIMS top be sending the FBI so many complaints about me!

[Kinpa]

On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 7:10:42 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 January 2016 12:46:51 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:
>
> >
> > Thus far you are only sinking into an ever deeper hole along with your friend who claims to be sending things to the FBI. He loves to hear himself speak however, so, until the FBI decides to contact me about anything, sean-o can take his claims AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!
> >
> > So, there you have it richard mcclintock and sean arundel! I hope that you both are able to enjoy this as much as I have been! Oh! and have a great day/night/whatever!
>
> KINPA:
>
> "Having said that I've noticed that YOU refuse to accept MY choice (for myself
> alone) to NOT CARE if Sri Paul Twitchell plagiarized one or one-thousand books!"
>
> LMAO ..... well he Kinpa sure as shit CARED about me "plagiarizing" some
> comments on the LFN website and posting it here last year.
>
> He and the LFN control freaks when ape shit about it.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No control freaks, you stole member written and copyrighted material. DOUBLE STANDARD! Still going to whine about Sri Paul Twitchell??

> Meanwhile I never "claimed" to have sent anything to the FBI.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, you did, and within the last 2 days. If you deleted those posts, then my screen shots prove that you deleted them! Now you are once again a LIAR!

> Meanwhile here's another little missive to send to the FBI and Ms Miller at ECK HQ.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here you again prove yourself a liar by threatening to send things to the FBI...and please DO send anything you would like to Ms. Miller at ECK HQ, I have absolutely no problem with you doing so, and I will gladly speak to her face to face, as well as anyone else at HQ that would like to look further into things!

> "AND his opinions, fold them up into sharp corners, and shove them forcefully
> and deep right up his arse, sideways of course!"
>
> Ooh aah Matthew, wash your mouth out you naughty bad boy.
>
> And do please GET OUT OF MY ARSE!

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this is what is known as your personal fantasy, however, I am not in your hind quarters in ANY way!Dream on!

> Never known anyone so fixated with SHIT .... god what happened to him when he
> was a young child being potty trained is anyone's guess - but it wasn't HEALTHY.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why does it bother you enough to mention it? OVER-REACTION yet another time???

> But whatever it was it is "101" on how to raise a narcissistic creep.
>
> (shrug)

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
100% opinion...find someone that cares

> RE: "until the FBI decides to contact me about anything"
>
> YES. The Universe has it's own way of working things out. In it's own time.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its own time is now!

> In the meantime, there's no reason to worry or be bothered about anything YOU do or say.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If that is so, then why do you keep answering me? You did say that you would ignore me for 6 months...maybe in Australia 6 months actually means 1 hour I guess...oh well....

[Kinpa]

On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 7:10:42 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jealous again?? LOL

> I bet the "wife's" impressed by you and bounces your bones even more than usual of late.
>
> YOU DA MAN KINPA!

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't be jealous sean-o I do not swing YOUR way, not that there is anything wrong with being homosexual, but that just isn't for me. I AM a man, and my wife doesn't "bounce my bones even more than usual of late." either, you really ought to not flatter yourself. You simply are not that important to me or my wife...


> (smile)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Enjoy the false gloat! It won't last very long

[Henosis Sage]

-----------

RE: "I will make sure the FBI sees these comments too"

DO IT, dare ya!

Prove to the FBI you are capable of "HOW TO READ and THINK PROPERLY"

Your dyslexia is palpably obvious for anyone to see.


RE: "Perhaps get some degree of education about Constitutional Law as well

as its various interpretations AND the limits to said interpretations!"

Christ almighty, now he thinks he's Barack Obama a Constitituional Law Lecturer.

Who owns the MONSTER EGO?

Kinpa-O does.

RE:

"Funny stuff from the guy that CLAIMS top be sending the FBI so many complaints
about me!"

How many complaints Oh Remote Viewer Guru?

Your problem is I made no such "claims" - I do not Lie - I act.

[Henosis Sage]

---

RE: " you stole member written and copyrighted material."

No I didn't. According to YOU "copyrighted material" has to be REGISTERED at
the Copyright Office.

Show me all these "registrations" by Loni Haas, yourself, or any of your LFN Control Freaks. Put up Kinpa-o!

RE:

"Yes, you did, and within the last 2 days. If you deleted those posts, then my screen shots prove that you deleted them!"

NO, I didn't. You'll have to prove it with your Screen Shots, but of course
they don't count they are not "evidence" of anything - you said so yourself.

So, what's it going to be boy? Your own "double standard" is fractured into
a million tiny pieces inside your own dysfunctioning mind.

RE: "Why does it bother you enough to mention it?"

Not bothered, simply sharing the truth with the alsorans.

RE: "Its own time is now! "

Well fix it then Liza - call the cops. Call your Lawyer/s. Call your brother
at the NSA. Call your cousin at the FBI. Phone a friend. Or continue
scratching your nuts.

RE: "If that is so, then why do you keep answering me?"

Because I can and I chose to. That's WHY.

Any other dumb questions Idiot-o?

[Henosis Sage]

----

BUT I SAW YOU BOTH DOING IT - SHE WAS THE ONE ON TOP WEARING THE STRAP ON.

Of course you'll deny it and pretend it never happened, but I am a top shelf
"Remote Viewer." You were screaming out it was hurting you 'tail bones'
- I heard it and saw it. It's TRUE!

Don't bother saying it never happened, because it did. I'm surprised the bed
hasn't broken Kinpa-o, you've been going hard at it since the 22nd December
you hot little pair of deviates that you are.

How do you like that?

(smiling)

[Kinpa]

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So then, you admit that there is in fact NO International Copyright Law???

> Show me all these "registrations" by Loni Haas, yourself, or any of your LFN Control Freaks. Put up Kinpa-o!

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why? To prove it to YOU? You silly egotistical boy, I have no need for you to consider me correct, you flatter yourself once again! Copyrighted material DOES have to be registered at the copyright office, go read their website! How could you have spent so much time on the FBI website and making claims while also misinterpreting how they define terms and which interpretations they use and NOT bother to look at all at the U.S. Copyright Office's site! While the Berne Convention does not require a copyright to be registered, the US Copyright Office does require it,as is shown by the case precedents set upon it, in which the LEAST registered version that infringement could be sued for was a completed and filed APPLICATION for registering the copyright.

NONE of those things apply to PHOTOGRAPHS of previously copyrighted items, as there is NO copyright recognized on them other than the original one held by the owner. Your "presentation" cannot be copyrighted as it is merely previously held copyrights that are owned already. If you take pics and post them on the web, ANYONE can copy them and use them at will without your permission! Read up on US Copyright Law since you continue to insist that you are taking legal actions, it might be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the actual laws in the country you claim you are suing me in, not to mention the case law rulings that have been made. Many have tried to sue using photographs, and while you may not consider it fair that the original owner also owns the rights to your photographs, that is an opinion and nothing more. It has NO legal power. Nothing, nada, zero....

Need proof? I will use your favorite resource, Wikipedia:

Requirement of registration

It is a common misconception to confuse copyright registration with the granting of copyright.

"Copyright in most countries today is automatic on "fixation" - it applies as soon as the work is fixed in some tangible medium. This standard is established internationally by the Berne Convention (1886), which most countries have signed onto since. Registration may be required by countries before joining Berne. For instance, the US required registration of copyrighted works before it signed onto the Berne Convention in 1989; at that point, registration was no longer required for works to be copyrighted in the US. Registration is still required in the US for some benefits, such as awards of statutory damages. U.S. Courts are split on whether a completed copyright registration is required to commence an infringement lawsuit, with the Fifth, Seventh and Ninth Circuits holding that the receipt of an application for copyright registration by the Copyright Office was sufficient.[citation needed] The case Kernel Records Oy v Mosley found that registration is necessary for a lawsuit and that anything published online is considered a US work."

NOTE where it says that "anything published online is considered a US work." That being the several things you illegally plagiarized from our site. What you failed to consider is why you were even able to view them to begin with. You ran right in and hung yourself as well as proved that you had plagiarized it from no place other than our site. The author purposely misspelled his name, and used that to trap you, and you hopped right into it! OOPS! BUSTED AGAIN! Control freaks?? I think not, you are just pissed off because we out thought you and trapped you and also got evidence of what you did! Call me an idiot all you want to, because you aren't looking real smart right about now! Of course we have known this for months already, it isn't anything new at all.

Did you even catch what happened above in that Wikipedia quote? You were busted for plagiarism twice, in two completely different ways!

> RE:
> "Yes, you did, and within the last 2 days. If you deleted those posts, then my screen shots prove that you deleted them!"
>
> NO, I didn't. You'll have to prove it with your Screen Shots, but of course
> they don't count they are not "evidence" of anything - you said so yourself.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again you seem to not be able to understand simple English. The context whereby screenshots are not evidence is VERY specific, that being your OLD screen shots that CLAIM contains items that you cannot prove are in violation of ANY copyright laws in the first place, and in the second place, are not considered evidence because you have NO links that will lead to these items CURRENTLY! DUH!

Your old "evidence" is nothing more than a claim that you cannot prove to begin with, but hey, you go ahead and claim anything you want to, just remember that you ARE a liar! OUCH!

> So, what's it going to be boy? Your own "double standard" is fractured into
> a million tiny pieces inside your own dysfunctioning mind.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are again quite mistaken....your slow mind was unable to recognize what was being said, and therefore was unable to understand it, as for anything being "fractured", nothing is fractured but for YOUR own LACK of logic, but you did that willingly didn't you? That MUST hurt! My mind is functioning quite well actually, and I cannot be blamed for your inability to understand what was said, that is ALL you!

> RE: "Why does it bother you enough to mention it?"
>
> Not bothered, simply sharing the truth with the alsorans.

>`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really? So that is the story you're going to stick with?? LOL

> RE: "Its own time is now! "
>
> Well fix it then Liza - call the cops. Call your Lawyer/s. Call your brother
> at the NSA. Call your cousin at the FBI. Phone a friend. Or continue
> scratching your nuts.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why would I need to? You aren't worth that much of my time or effort! Way to flatter yourself son! It has become a constant habit I notice...

> RE: "If that is so, then why do you keep answering me?"
>
> Because I can and I chose to. That's WHY.
>
> Any other dumb questions Idiot-o?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There has not been a single dumb question, but your calling them that says more about your own state of idiocy than it does anything else! Enjoy that sean-o!!! Have a GREAT night too!

[Kinpa]

Awww poor poor sean-o is jealous, and sees such things in his imaginings! FUNNY stuff! I get the impression that that was supposed to anger me, but it only make me laugh! Still smiling??????

[Henosis Sage]

----

RE: "So then, you admit that there is in fact NO International Copyright Law???"

Not me mattie-o!!!


RE: "Why would I need to?"

Because you're an Idiot-o Mattie-o!!!

You always have been. That's why all the "tests" had to be done. REMEMBER? :-)

[Kinpa]

You keep your dream alive sean-o! Good luck with that!

[Henosis Sage]

RE: Did you even catch what happened above in that Wikipedia quote?

SO NOW wikipedia is OK to use .... LOL you've chnaged your mind again Kinparella~!!!

What about the horrible man who started it .. paedophile or something YOU said he was. Mmmmmmm, well blow me down if Kinpa-O isn't displaying his DOUBLE STANDARDS

AND what was it you said about my "copyright" that it wasn;t VALID because it wasn't "registered" ... that just "claiming" a copyright was NOT enough.

Gosh the STORY has changed yet again Paul twitchelll .. ooops sorry, Doug Marman, ooops damn blast I mean MATTHEWELLA

RE: "You were busted for plagiarism twice, in two completely different ways!"

YEAH maybe , maybe not, I got my content from the MAIN ASTRAL LIBRARY

Besides no body CARES about Plagiarism, YOU say you don;t, the '1600' members
at Light FARCE Network don;t you keep telling us here, ... and Plagiarism is NOT Copyright Infringement anyway.

IT's NOT ILLEGAL - SO I never "illegally plagiarized from our site."

IT's NOT a CRIME you keep saying ---

EVERYONE DOES IT

SO SUE ME ASSHOLE~!!!

And I'll leave Eckankar and the FBI to take up the issue about Harold's E-books and a few dozen other being ILLEGALLY DISTRIBUTED FROM 'YOUR' WEBSITE, YEAH?

Have a great New Years weekend Mattie-o. Have a great YEAR Mattie-o

Have a GREAT night too!

Fark, have a GREAT LIFE even, while it lasts.

[Henosis Sage]

Oh no not "imagination" it was real.

Remember what you said to Etznab ages ago ... I do ... something about the EYE CANNOT TRESPASS .... well you LOVE IT when she straps it on and gives it to ya!

What on earth is there to be "jealous about" yikes. Horror!

I am doing this right, right?

RE: " I get the impression that that was supposed to anger me,"

No, not at all, just sharing what I see. Nothing more.

Not my cup of tea, but if that's what you like who am I to judge you and the "lady"? It's free world, what ever floats ya boat Mattie-O

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 3 January 2016 05:50:37 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

Hanging on MY every word!!!

Shit don't hang yourself by the throat mate.

[Henosis Sage]

---

I do love it when some things are 'ignored' - like the above.

Surely I can win a Kinpa-poo Look-a-like Trophy for that post?

A classic mock up of KINPA:101 bullshit!

[Henosis Sage]

"the EYE CANNOT TRESPASS" says Kinpa-poo the Remote Viewing Guru of the World.

Nuffin' to say Muffin'? <smile>

[Etznab]

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 at 10:07:58 AM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:
> On Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:29:46 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

> > On Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:53:30 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:52:55 AM UTC-6, Jon Thorpe wrote:
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> > > > On Monday, November 26, 2012 10:56:40 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
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> > > > > On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:06:51 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
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> > > > > > See biography section here.
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> > > > > > http://www.esmhome.org/library/TheMasterKeySystem.pdf
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> > > > > > Quoting excerpts:
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> > > > > > 40. Recognition is a mental process, mental action is therefore the interaction of the individual upon the Universal Mind, and as the Universal Mind is the intelligence which pervades all space and animates all living things, this mental action and reaction is the law of causation, but the principle of causation does not obtain in the individual but in the Universal Mind. It is not an objective faculty but a subjective process, and the results are seen in an infinite variety of conditions and experiences.
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> > > > > > 41. In order to express life there must be mind; nothing can exist without mind. Everything which exists is some manifestation of this one basic substance from which and by which all things have been created and are continually being recreated.
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> > > > > > 42. We live in a fathomless sea of plastic mind substance. This substance is ever alive and active. It is sensitive to the highest degree. It takes form according to the mental demand. Thought forms the mold or matrix from which the substance expresses.
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> > > > > > 43. Remember that it is in the application alone that the value consists, and that a practical understanding of this law will substitute abundance for poverty, wisdom for ignorance, harmony for discord and freedom for tyranny, and certainly there can be no greater blessing than these from a material and social standpoint.
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> > > > > > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
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> > > > > > Compare with Rebazar Tarzs in - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell - Chapter titled: The Experience of Spiritual Wealth, the last five paragraphs.
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> > > > > > Ref# 41391720-9294-Dialogues With The Master vs. The Master Key (1912) Charles Haanel
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> > > > > For those who argue for less than 3% I wonder how many of them have looked? For instance, I just looked at Dialogues With The Master chapter: THE HEART CENTER.
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> > > > > Look at paragraph four in DWTM that begins "Each function of life ... ."
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> > > > > Now go here and look for the same words.
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> > > > > http://www.ask-gratitude.com/part-three.html
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> > > > > Notice how The Master Key System begins to quote Troward, concerning the cerebro-spinal system. In Paul Twitchell's version, however, it's all the same person. Rebazar Tarzs!
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> > > > > (I've seen this type of thing before. Where two, or more people in an author's book - The Path Of The Masters, by Julian Johnson, for example - in Paul Twitchell's version become Rebazar Tarzs!)
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> > > > > OK. Now I just found this and the time it took me to find it amounted to less than a minute. All I did was type "Each function of life and each action" into a Google search box and click enter. Try it and notice how Charles Haanel comes up, with a link to the text where it can be found. It's like pulling a string attached to a whole ball of YARN. Pun intended.
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> > > > > My problem is not the less than 3%. If that were the case life would be easy. As it is now, it's going to take me the better part of a day to type out that chapter for DWTM (there is no online source and I don't have a scanner) and line it up side by side with the corresponding text from Haanel. This is part of the problem then. Finding this stuff is one thing, illustrating it is quite another.
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> > > > > Ref# 41391720-9294-DWTM (THE HEART CENTER) vs. Charles Haanel (The Master Key System)
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> > > > on the other hand, what is it that you are proving by the opposite of those claims???? that 2 or 3% is inaccurate, okay, but if that were all, you'd have stopped long ago, so what is the real motivation here, im curious...
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> > > "on the other hand, what is it that you are proving by the opposite of those claims???? that 2 or 3% is inaccurate, okay, but if that were all, you'd have stopped long ago, so what is the real motivation here, im curious..."
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> > > Learning about where the text came from. What was the source.
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> > Here is a brief sample excerpt.
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> > [C.H.] = Charles Haanel, 1912
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> > [R.T.] = Rebazar Tarzs, 1956?, 1970
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> > ***
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> > [C.H.]
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> > 24. All agree that there is but one Principle or Consciousness pervading the entire Universe, occupying all space, and being essentially the same in kind at every point of its presence. It is all powerful, all wisdom and always present. All thoughts and things are within Itself. It is all in all.
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> > - Charles Haanel, "The Master Key System", 1912
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> > http://taoism.about.com/od/themasterkey/a/MasterKey1_5.htm
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> > [R.T.]
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> > "You agree that there is but one power pervading the entire space of the cosmic worlds, and being essentially the same in kind at every point of its presence. It is all-powerful, all-wise and all-present. All thoughts and all things are within this power. It is All in All!
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> > - Dialogues With The Master, by Paul Twitchell, 1970, pp. 125-126
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> > [C.H.]
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> > 25. There is but one consciousness in the universe able to think; and when it thinks, its thoughts become objective things to it. As this Consciousness is omnipresent, it must be present within every individual; each individual must be a manifestation of that Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Consciousness.
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> > "This is what ECKANKAR calls the ECK power, or Sound Current, and what is known to the Western world as God. (p. 126)    
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> > "God is the only power in the cosmic worlds. IT is able to think, and when IT thinks ITS thoughts become objective things to IT. As this power is Omnipresent, IT must be present in every individual, and each individual is the manifestation of this Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent power.
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> > [C.H.] 26. As there is only one Consciousness in the Universe that is able to think it necessarily follows that your consciousness is identical with the Universal Consciousness, or, in other words, all mind is one mind. There is no dodging this conclusion.
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> > "As there is only one power in the universe that is able to think, it necessarily follows that your consciousness is identical with this power, or, in other words, man is that power ITSELF. This is saying that 'I am God and God is I'. This is what you realize upon reaching the Fifth Plane.
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> > OK. That was a small excerpt. However, the greater part of that chapter from DWTM, by Paul Twitchell, reads in places both similar and exact ... and it flows in similar order to what Haanel basically created when Paul Twitchell was probably no more than 3 years old! And it's not only that. There are other chapters in DWTM with a similar scheme. There are chapters in other books by Paul Twitchell too. Such as The Key to Eckankar and The Far Country; both of which feature Rebazar Tarzs.
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> >
> >
> > So, what I am interested in is the history and evolution of those ideas and texts. It is on account of the nature of the subjects. Subjects that speak about God, about the Spirit of God, about Cosmology, about Physics and things Supernatural in nature, etc.
>
> interesting it is, indeed, however, i offer the idea that that idea may have been found elsewhere than this particular author's work as copied by PT, and while not denying that, the idea itself seems familiar to me in a general sense, one not beginning with Eckankar or Paul Twitchell, just my opinion however on that

Along with looking at the ideas I am also looking at the text and grammar that were used to express it. I am looking at how many similar words, sentences, paragraphs or pages were like copies of one another, but credited to a different source.

[Etznab]

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 at 10:15:34 AM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:
> On Saturday, December 1, 2012 9:38:21 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 1, 2012 1:35:35 AM UTC-6, Jon Thorpe wrote:

> > > excellent, i apologize if i sounded critical, i was again mirroring my former self but forgot to give any indication of my own self critical sarcasm ;-)but anyhow, good job, nothing wrong with getting a more accurate percentage right? and a clearer overall view and or understanding? or something like that, anyhow, please, continue unabated~!
> >
> >
> >

> > It looks possible in the past people had a habit of using pseudo characters for transmitting of various teachings. Those from the East and Tibet seem to be the most popular places of origin for such characters.
> >
> >
> >
> > It was another time and I don't think one can guage how prevalent the practice might have been without looking back at the history of that time. It most likely goes back father than beginning of the 20th century.
> >
> >
> >
> > From what little I've noticed so far there was a change in the ways that many people looked at religion. The different "Spiritual Awakenings" in the U.S.A., for example. There was also a time when people were fascinated with the East and where so many individuals, or groups of individuals either went, or claimed to have traveled to the East.
> >
> >
> >
> > So I think this is something worth looking into. It might be educational to get a feel for how many individuals claimed knowledge and wisdom came from eastern adepts when it may have come from another source, like a book, a speech, or what was the buzz within and around certain circles during that time period in history. This could account for a number of similarities in idea and belief about how the world was created, the different ages of man, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is probable too, I think, that people drew from existing knowledge, stories and myths and subsequently fashioned their own. "Radha Soami", for instance. It shares a lot of similarities to other movements, but at the same time is not exactly the same. And there are sant Mat groups, as well as other groups, who assign different orders to the sounds one can hear of various planes. Then there are the Kabir panths and the Sikh groups which are as different from one another as are the denominations within Christianity.
> >
> >
> >
> > My real interest would be to find any real living masters as part of a long lineage, instead of people taking from existing stories and texts and later making up their own lineage. I have seen this in various religions, this idea of pseudo lineage, where some folks were real and others most likely not.
>
> the thing is however, that the writings of PT give absolutely NO indication of what the case might actually be, and these Masters that dont seem to have any historical basis are still very much alive and doing things, which imo leaves ALL of those who speak against the concept rather out in the cold, not throwing you into either category of course, just making a note, the things that PT put into his books were truth, and those truths are very much working today, as are the Masters

Here is my viewpoint about that. If Paul Twitchell put things into his books that were copied from other books then it doesn't automatically make all the things true. Neither does making the things appear as having come from God or a God-man. It doesn't matter in what books, or by what claimed source when the thing is about an actual event in history that can be checked.

There are books that claim the Jewish God told some people to go and murder their neighbors and take the land. However, there is no proof that a God said this. Not even a Jehovah ... just because someone wrote it in a book.

Paul Twitchell and Eckankar materials have not only spoken about myths, legends and world history, but also about other religions and people. I just feel at this point it's appropriate to clarify whether Paul Twitchell was really taking down the words of ancient masters like he said, or if he was taking from books and making it look like the things came from Eckankar masters.

[Henosis Sage]

Kinpa claims: "... the writings of PT give absolutely NO indication of
what the case might actually be,..."

OH yes they do, the writings of Twitchell prove all kinds of things about
Twitchell and Eckankar beyond all doubt .... unless one is an idiot and
chooses to ignore what is there IN those very writings.

(shrug)

Kinpa: ".. these Masters that dont seem to have any historical basis are
still very much alive and doing things, .."

More LYING BULLSHIT from Matthew Sharpe - Guardian of the Light Farce Network
and 3 decade veteran member of Eckankar.

You can thank your mum for that!

[Henosis Sage]

KINPA said in NOV 2012

"on the other hand, what is it that you are proving by the opposite of those
claims???? that 2 or 3% is inaccurate, okay, but if that were all, you'd have
stopped long ago, so what is the real motivation here, im curious... "

CORRECT KINPA - the obvious problem for YOU, and Marman, and Klemp and others
is that the 0.7%, the 1%, or 2% or 3% "false belief" for the TRUE amount of
PLAGIARISM contained in TWITCHELL'S writings is extremely FALSE --

the most likely CLOSE number would be +90% because on every page of every book and every page of every discourse TWITCHELL PLAGTIARISED and COPIED VERBATIM
from other authors.

There was NO dialogues wiht Rebazar Tarzs recorded in Twitchell writings.


Taking that further nor any dialogues with any other "eck master" noted in his
books, discourses and talks - NONE.

There was no dilaogue nor monologues from Lords of the Planes, nor custodians
of the golden wisdom temples, nor "sugmad" - NONE

THIS is what the WRITINGS prove about Twitchell's "writings", and Twitchell's
"claims" to some kind of spiritual authority or Mastership, and what the
writings PROVE about the entire edifice, about the WHOLE of ECKANKAR, and about
himself.

BECAUSE if ALL there ever was was 1% or 2% or 3% Plagiarism in Twitchell's
writings about Eckankar, then not only would DAVID LANE have stopped circa 1979,
BUT also DOUG MARMAN would never have got started in 1983 with his PERSONAL ATTACKS
against Lane and his research.

AND Harold Klemp, after viewing some portions of Twitchell's personal archive,
would NEVER have bothered with giving TALKS about Twitchell in 1984, 1985, 1990
or any other time would he have needed to ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF TWITCHELL
COPYING OTHER'S COPYRIGHT works .... basically there would NOT have been any
thing for KLEMP TO FIX.

And Marman would never have sold ONE COPY of the Whole Truth book.

It would never have been written!!!

And Patti Simpson, would NOT have gone ape shit over Darwin's LTG 3 version
in June 1983.

Nor would Patti have needed to coach, advise, or JOIN his SDP website, nor
give the key not address at his one off seminar either.

AND Gail twitchell would not have had any dramas with DARWIN GROSS, nor
would she have EVER had to sign away BOTH her ownership and CULPABILITY
for Twitchell's writings which she then OWNED lock staock and barrel in JUly 1982.

PLUS KINPA -- you would be sitting there NOW reading this, nor would anyoen else into the future for as long as this Google group exists.

So, there ya go, neither Klemp, or Patti, or Marman have FIXED ANYTHING.

and any reasonable person who is informed of the FACTS would recognise this easily.

Are YOU unaware of the HISTORY and the FACTS?

Then hey, why not have a look here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-M0yAR0UPhPalFWRzl6YmlmM00

and also do some searching across the internet and ASK SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS

AT the end of the day KINPA and everyone else - TWITCHELL's own writings, plus
Steigers BIO prove beyond all reasonable DOUBT that Twitchell's writings, and
therefore ECKANKAR "teachings" are all FRAUDULENT and UNTRUE.

It isn't rocket science.